Latest / Groove with Portia / Grieving the Living: Coping with Loss Without Closure

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Grieving the Living: Coping with Loss Without Closure · Groove with Portia

0:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to Grow with Porsche, the podcast that uncovers the
0:09
Speaker 1: hidden treasures within grief. I'm your host, Porsche the Producer,
0:12
Speaker 1: and I'm inviting you to join me on a transformative
0:15
Speaker 1: journey where we were exchange laughter, of course, the best
0:18
Speaker 1: medicine of them all, reflect on cherish memories, Remember that
0:21
Speaker 1: time that the little boy grabbed my hand instead of
0:23
Speaker 1: his mother's at the amusement park yikes, And of course,
0:26
Speaker 1: discover gratitude while navigating one of life's hardest challenges lost.
0:31
Speaker 1: So get ready to grow with me, Porsche the Producer,
0:35
Speaker 1: let's dive in. Hello everybody, welcome back to Grow with Porsche.
0:47
Speaker 1: I am your host, Porsche Booker, and as always, don't
0:49
Speaker 1: forget like sharing. Subscribe to keep it with the latest
0:52
Speaker 1: and greatest of all with Grew with Porsche. So one
0:55
Speaker 1: of the things, as you guys know, I love having
0:58
Speaker 1: people to come on the show to talk about how
1:00
Speaker 1: they found their groove again through adverse circumstances. And let's
1:05
Speaker 1: be realistic, addiction is one of those topics that's highly
1:09
Speaker 1: stigmatized and that also comes with a load of grief.
1:13
Speaker 1: So today I have the honor of being joined by
1:15
Speaker 1: Miss Lisa Katona Smith, who is a certified peer recovery
1:20
Speaker 1: specialist and also the founder of Parallel Recovery. So welcome
1:25
Speaker 1: Lisa to grow with Porsche.
1:27
Speaker 2: How are you today, I'm great, Porsha, thanks for having.
1:29
Speaker 1: Me, Lisa, It's an honor. I remember when I saw
1:32
Speaker 1: about your story and I said, I have to have
1:34
Speaker 1: her on because I'm curious, Lisa, first of all, what
1:37
Speaker 1: are you grateful for today?
1:40
Speaker 2: I was listening to other episodes and I thought, what
1:43
Speaker 2: am I going to say I'm grateful for today? You know,
1:45
Speaker 2: I'm really grateful for the opportunity to support and invite
1:50
Speaker 2: families into a healing process through you know what I've
1:56
Speaker 2: learned myself, and you know, really be able to offer
2:00
Speaker 2: them a hopeful outcome for themselves in the hard topic
2:05
Speaker 2: of addiction.
2:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I love Lisa, how you brought
2:10
Speaker 1: that to the forefront, right, Because one of the things
2:12
Speaker 1: that comes to my mind that a lot of families
2:15
Speaker 1: are dealing with in you yourself, is grief through this process, right.
2:20
Speaker 1: I think despite the stigma, there's this level of heavy
2:24
Speaker 1: grief that you're carrying around on a day to day basis.
2:27
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, Lisa, what did it take for you
2:31
Speaker 1: to work with your grief to even begin to try
2:35
Speaker 1: to put something together to help your son.
2:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head
2:41
Speaker 2: when you said work with your grief. The first thing
2:45
Speaker 2: is to name it and acknowledge it. And what's different
2:48
Speaker 2: about the type of grief that accompanies loving someone with
2:53
Speaker 2: an addiction problem, a substance use disorder, or mental health
2:57
Speaker 2: challenge is most people aren't dealing with an actual death
3:03
Speaker 2: of a person in those circumstances, So they're dealing with
3:07
Speaker 2: grief of a person who is alive and not showing
3:11
Speaker 2: up in the way that you hoped, planned, married into
3:17
Speaker 2: boor into all of the things, like you're missing milestones,
3:21
Speaker 2: your hopes and dreams get crushed. You are grieving how
3:27
Speaker 2: you see somebody else living and treating themselves. You're grieving
3:31
Speaker 2: your own experiences that aren't happening, or the experiences that
3:36
Speaker 2: are happening that are really awful and hard. So it's
3:40
Speaker 2: actually labeled complex form of grief. It's called ambiguous grief,
3:44
Speaker 2: which the word ambiguous kind of identifies it. It is
3:47
Speaker 2: very confusing and doesn't have a beginning and an end.
3:52
Speaker 2: Not that any grief actually does, but we can compartmentalize
3:57
Speaker 2: more traditional grief in a way that has a beginning
3:59
Speaker 2: in it end and give us grief just kind of
4:02
Speaker 2: is a melody that is underlying in your daily life.
4:06
Speaker 1: Right. And the thing too, Lisa, that I'm hearing is
4:10
Speaker 1: also holding on to yourself. Right, you as a parent,
4:15
Speaker 1: what did it take for you to give yourself that
4:17
Speaker 1: grace and love and patience when probably you're feeling like
4:22
Speaker 1: I'm feeling my son as a parent because they're you know,
4:26
Speaker 1: doing this, They're stuck and I can't help them.
4:30
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that grief and self compassion go
4:33
Speaker 2: hand in hand. That if you leave space to have compassion,
4:38
Speaker 2: which means you have to understand what you're experiencing and
4:42
Speaker 2: give space for it to be okay and give it
4:45
Speaker 2: a name, then you can, you know, kind of move
4:48
Speaker 2: past your pity party or your self judgment or you know,
4:54
Speaker 2: the beliefs that we gaslight ourselves with that you could
4:58
Speaker 2: have or should have done some something different and that
5:02
Speaker 2: would have changed this whole scenario. There, You've just got
5:05
Speaker 2: to leave space for the ambiguous, which is really really
5:10
Speaker 2: uncomfortable and difficult. And it's an advanced person that can
5:15
Speaker 2: do that.
5:16
Speaker 1: I agree, and I mean you have literally hit the
5:19
Speaker 1: nail on the head, Lisa where that compassion piece. I
5:23
Speaker 1: think sometimes we forget to give ourselves that were in
5:27
Speaker 1: the thick of the grief, the shame, the guilt, right
5:32
Speaker 1: because I mean, we grow we all grow up differently
5:35
Speaker 1: and learn about people who struggle with addiction. I remember
5:38
Speaker 1: growing up judging people who struggled right until my mom
5:43
Speaker 1: really sat me down and said, you don't know the
5:46
Speaker 1: struggles or the demons that they're fighting every single day.
5:51
Speaker 1: And I'm like, Okay, that makes perfect sense because in
5:54
Speaker 1: my mind, I'm thinking, well, it should be as simple
5:56
Speaker 1: as turning a light bulb on and off, right, But no,
5:58
Speaker 1: it's not because is for them. We don't know. I
6:02
Speaker 1: don't know what hurts and pains that they are not
6:05
Speaker 1: comfortable with sharing with the world that they have to
6:08
Speaker 1: mass through this type of you know, behavior. And I'm
6:12
Speaker 1: curious Lisa too. You mentioned that you went through several
6:17
Speaker 1: different programs with your son, and I'm sure that there
6:22
Speaker 1: were some that maybe were promising, but then it was
6:25
Speaker 1: still that it's not fixing. What were some of the
6:29
Speaker 1: things that you were the hinderances you were finding with
6:33
Speaker 1: a lot of these programs, and what did it also
6:37
Speaker 1: take for you to incorporate those things that you weren't
6:41
Speaker 1: finding into your new endeavor parallel recovery.
6:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. Brain disorders are really complicated,
6:52
Speaker 2: and you know, it's not as simple as taking a
6:55
Speaker 2: medication and kind of getting rid of an infection. It's
7:00
Speaker 2: just pervasive in the nervous system. And so in terms
7:05
Speaker 2: of the programs themselves and what they offered my son,
7:08
Speaker 2: you know, some of that's on him, and some of
7:11
Speaker 2: that's on the programs. But ultimately where I kind of
7:15
Speaker 2: created this idea and system, and you know, eventually tedex
7:20
Speaker 2: talk and Noah book titled Parallel Recovery, is that Here's
7:25
Speaker 2: the one thing that they didn't offer is support of
7:29
Speaker 2: a recovery process for families. One of two things were offered.
7:36
Speaker 2: Either judgment on how we got here, like you must
7:40
Speaker 2: have done something wrong, or you continue to do something
7:44
Speaker 2: wrong by being codependent and enabling of this person, by
7:47
Speaker 2: the way, who is your child. And that's a really
7:51
Speaker 2: hard thing to say to a mother, not to say
7:55
Speaker 2: that some of the behaviors are not necessarily helpful, but
7:59
Speaker 2: to call them something, to label them something negative is
8:03
Speaker 2: not helpful. Or the other option that was given is
8:07
Speaker 2: to just feel pity and for the family system because
8:12
Speaker 2: the person that was struggling my son being that person
8:16
Speaker 2: must be bad and then so we must feel sorry
8:19
Speaker 2: for you. But that's not actually helping the family system
8:23
Speaker 2: get healthy. And we have probably every single person listening
8:27
Speaker 2: has heard the term addiction is a family disease. And
8:31
Speaker 2: if we don't actually heal the family system, we are
8:35
Speaker 2: not living by that phrase. We're just saying addiction is
8:39
Speaker 2: a family disease and one person is the problem, but
8:42
Speaker 2: we all got here somehow, and we all have a
8:46
Speaker 2: role in getting out.
8:48
Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent. And I've heard that term before,
8:51
Speaker 1: that addiction is a family disease. And I'm curious, Lisa,
8:54
Speaker 1: So what were some of the things that you currently
8:58
Speaker 1: are doing now in parallel recovery to really support the
9:02
Speaker 1: family and not keep that shame pool full?
9:07
Speaker 2: Right? Yes, so first is dealing with grief, self compassion,
9:11
Speaker 2: the shame that comes along with you know, we've come
9:13
Speaker 2: a long way with mental health and substance use acceptance
9:17
Speaker 2: and like like what you were saying, your mother offered you,
9:20
Speaker 2: which is beautiful, but a lot of people aren't offered this.
9:23
Speaker 2: We still have as a society the idea that it's
9:26
Speaker 2: a moral failing, that this is a choice, and that
9:29
Speaker 2: somebody is bad because they have this problem, and we
9:33
Speaker 2: just if we just look at science alone, that is
9:35
Speaker 2: not a true statement. And that's probably another show. But
9:39
Speaker 2: the things that I offer outside of compassion work, grief work,
9:45
Speaker 2: like personal understanding of self work, is how do I
9:49
Speaker 2: communicate differently with my person, separating the behavior from the
9:55
Speaker 2: person that I love. How can I communicate with the
9:58
Speaker 2: person that I love and create boundaries around their behavior
10:02
Speaker 2: that's harmful to them and many times harmful to me
10:05
Speaker 2: and both of those things can exist. It's not just
10:09
Speaker 2: you need to get away because you're bad. It's wow,
10:12
Speaker 2: that behavior is concerning to me, is hurting me, is
10:16
Speaker 2: impacting me. So I'm going to create space between myself
10:20
Speaker 2: and that behavior, and then I'm going to go around
10:22
Speaker 2: the behavior to love the person. And it's complicated and
10:26
Speaker 2: it's hard work. And that's why I call it parallel recovery.
10:29
Speaker 2: If I wave my magic wand families would go to
10:33
Speaker 2: treatment with their loved one and have a parallel process
10:37
Speaker 2: of recovery, that's not how we do things in the
10:41
Speaker 2: treatment world, so I've got to sort of find a
10:44
Speaker 2: different way to do it. So that's what it is.
10:47
Speaker 2: I mean, it's asking families to do the hard work
10:50
Speaker 2: of their own recovery process. You are impacted by this.
10:54
Speaker 2: You woke up and you probably don't know how you
10:56
Speaker 2: got here. I say that I woke up a door
11:00
Speaker 2: and I didn't go to bed one, but I started
11:03
Speaker 2: slamming doors at some point and it was effective for
11:05
Speaker 2: a while until I realized this isn't who I want
11:08
Speaker 2: to be anymore, and learned how to show up differently
11:12
Speaker 2: for a person who was not his best self.
11:15
Speaker 1: And you you know, Lisa, I'm glad you brought that
11:17
Speaker 1: up because I think so many people. You're right, there's
11:21
Speaker 1: this we're doing this for the person who's struggling, but
11:25
Speaker 1: the family's just over here. But it's like it takes
11:29
Speaker 1: a holistic approach to really get this person into some
11:34
Speaker 1: type of more sustainable space.
11:37
Speaker 2: Yea.
11:38
Speaker 1: And I love the parallel analogy, right, like literally we're
11:42
Speaker 1: working hand in hand. And I'm curious, Lisa, how is
11:47
Speaker 1: your son doing today?
11:49
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, thanks, He continues to you know,
11:53
Speaker 2: he's up and down, he has his struggles, but ultimately
11:57
Speaker 2: he's responsible for his journey, and our relationship is one
12:03
Speaker 2: that is not entangled. We show up for each other
12:06
Speaker 2: and the good and the bad, and we can communicate
12:10
Speaker 2: and connect outside of the challenges that either he might
12:15
Speaker 2: be having, or we might be having, or I might
12:17
Speaker 2: be having as a mom. Thank you.
12:19
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that, because I think sometimes right
12:23
Speaker 1: there can be this level of guilt or shame when
12:28
Speaker 1: things that you've created don't seem to be in alignment
12:32
Speaker 1: with the mission and the wording that you're putting onto
12:36
Speaker 1: the world. So I appreciate you really highlighting that to Lisa.
12:40
Speaker 1: And I'm curious you brought up boundaries, and let's be realistic,
12:43
Speaker 1: there tends to be resistance when it comes to setting boundaries,
12:47
Speaker 1: especially being a mom or a parent and your kid
12:51
Speaker 1: is struggling, and that codependency that you brought up, Lisa,
12:55
Speaker 1: I'm curious, how can other parents learn to adopt boundaries
13:02
Speaker 1: and let go of the shame and guilt of that
13:05
Speaker 1: codependency and look at it from the lens of this
13:09
Speaker 1: is preservation for not just me, but also you know
13:13
Speaker 1: the person who I'm working with my child.
13:15
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think that. You know, boundaries are a
13:18
Speaker 2: little bit of a social media pop phrase right now,
13:22
Speaker 2: and every time I listen to quote unquote professionals talk
13:27
Speaker 2: about boundaries, I get a little bit scratchy because usually
13:31
Speaker 2: boundaries are spoken in a way that are, I need
13:35
Speaker 2: you to stop that behavior. And that's not what a
13:38
Speaker 2: boundary is. That's a rule which is rarely effective after
13:42
Speaker 2: your child's like four. But a boundary is this is
13:47
Speaker 2: how I can love you and love myself, and I
13:50
Speaker 2: call it loving better. I'll tell people, you know, you
13:53
Speaker 2: can tell your person I can't love you with you
13:57
Speaker 2: living in my house right now, and it's really import
14:00
Speaker 2: into me to love you, and so I'm going to
14:02
Speaker 2: have to make some changes. Notice the subject the noun
14:06
Speaker 2: of the sentences is me, not you. So if your
14:11
Speaker 2: boundary starts with you need to stop doing that, you're
14:15
Speaker 2: just controlling your discomfort and telling somebody else what they
14:20
Speaker 2: need to do, which is gonna most likely have them
14:22
Speaker 2: dig their heels in deeper. So, you know, in terms
14:27
Speaker 2: of addressing feeling bad, particularly moms, I really work with people,
14:33
Speaker 2: particularly mothers, around the messages that we carry from our
14:38
Speaker 2: past generations about what a good mother looks like, and
14:44
Speaker 2: what a good mother like. I'm trying to change that paradigm.
14:48
Speaker 2: A good mother is not a doormat that is teaching
14:51
Speaker 2: your child to abuse other people. And so I do
14:57
Speaker 2: initially basic work on person values and then I talk
15:01
Speaker 2: about the shadow side of those personal values. If you
15:04
Speaker 2: have a value of devotion, which is a lovely value
15:08
Speaker 2: to have, you're a wonderful person and I want you
15:11
Speaker 2: in my circle. The shadow side of that value might
15:15
Speaker 2: be martyr, or might be a doormat. Right like that
15:22
Speaker 2: you are self defecating to serve others, and that is
15:28
Speaker 2: not a sustainable place to express that value. I have
15:32
Speaker 2: a personal value of humor, and the shadow side of
15:37
Speaker 2: humor for me can be sarcasm. And that's mean so
15:42
Speaker 2: really being careful with yourself around what is underlying my
15:47
Speaker 2: need to create this boundary and how can I speak
15:52
Speaker 2: it from a place of self rather than a place
15:55
Speaker 2: of you need to?
15:56
Speaker 1: And I appreciate you highlighting that, Lisa, because I think
15:59
Speaker 1: some any mothers, as you mentioned, they coddle their sons.
16:04
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like a generational thing
16:08
Speaker 1: or it's just deeply ingrained where oh I have to
16:11
Speaker 1: be there and yeah, you can be there and support
16:14
Speaker 1: them at the same time, still maintain your autonomy, right, right,
16:20
Speaker 1: still maintain the preservation of you, because you can't keep
16:25
Speaker 1: pouring into an empty cup yere, you know, just completely dry.
16:31
Speaker 1: Then you're you know, becoming the worst version of you
16:35
Speaker 1: unintentionally because you're trying to continue to pour into something else.
16:42
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, And I'm gonna go a step further. There's
16:47
Speaker 2: a there's a proverb. I see it out there, you know,
16:51
Speaker 2: out in the interwebs, that a mother is only as
16:54
Speaker 2: happy as her satus child. And a lot of people
16:58
Speaker 2: when I just said that probably went, yes, that's true.
17:01
Speaker 2: I think that's a harmful message. What it's harmful to mothers. Right.
17:06
Speaker 2: It gives us the idea that our purpose and job
17:11
Speaker 2: and role and our whole, our whole sense of self
17:15
Speaker 2: is based on somebody else's choices. By the way, by
17:17
Speaker 2: the time they get to a certain age, that like,
17:20
Speaker 2: we're in control of this somehow, which is not true.
17:25
Speaker 2: And two, it gives the message that we must entangle
17:30
Speaker 2: our well being with somebody else's well being. And a
17:34
Speaker 2: premise of parallel recovery is to model that I am
17:40
Speaker 2: responsible for my well being and I am capable of
17:44
Speaker 2: my well being and when those emotions are entangled, meaning
17:49
Speaker 2: you know, the doting moms wanting to make everything good
17:52
Speaker 2: and take away a consequences and all that kind of
17:54
Speaker 2: stuff that we all do, and just it needs to
17:57
Speaker 2: sort of stop at some point, and sometimes it doesn't.
18:02
Speaker 2: Is actually preventing the empowerment of our child.
18:08
Speaker 1: Right. And you know, I've never heard that quote before, Lisa,
18:12
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm thinking, I don't have any kids,
18:15
Speaker 1: but I could hear how my mom would respond to
18:17
Speaker 1: that now, like God Rest her soul, and it's I
18:20
Speaker 1: can see how that can essentially be a nail and
18:24
Speaker 1: a coffin. Yeah, or so many parents, because you know,
18:28
Speaker 1: it seems that there's this level of I have to
18:30
Speaker 1: be superman or superwoman for all my kids, and yeah,
18:35
Speaker 1: you can be. At the same time, there's still that
18:39
Speaker 1: version of you that has to take care of you.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. And circling it back to grief, portia is part
18:46
Speaker 2: of grief. I think grief in general, but particularly complex
18:51
Speaker 2: ambiguous grief requires you to hold space for the hard
18:56
Speaker 2: and the good.
18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think to your point about that, to
19:00
Speaker 1: like to this day, I mean, how do you give
19:04
Speaker 1: yourself that grace to hold space right for the good
19:09
Speaker 1: and the bad moments, because you know, addiction, like you mentioned,
19:12
Speaker 1: is not like when you lose a job, a pet, right,
19:17
Speaker 1: This is an an every day, moment by moment experience.
19:22
Speaker 1: So you never know if there's gonna be a relapse
19:25
Speaker 1: or you know how long they're gonna stay clean. So
19:28
Speaker 1: what can you say to that? And also to encourage
19:31
Speaker 1: other parents to hold space for themselves, to hold both
19:37
Speaker 1: the hard and the good.
19:39
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. I think one of the biggest rides that
19:44
Speaker 2: family members go on with a loved one who's struggling
19:47
Speaker 2: with addiction in particular is the peaks and the valleys, Right,
19:51
Speaker 2: So they go from being extremely hopeful and like this
19:55
Speaker 2: is done and it's it's very complicated, Porsche. The even
20:00
Speaker 2: well meaning friends and family, they'll ask how are they doing,
20:04
Speaker 2: as if like it's over, And that's just not how
20:07
Speaker 2: the brain works. When the brain which addiction mental health
20:11
Speaker 2: is a brain disorder, it's a continual it's a continuum
20:15
Speaker 2: of the disorder. It gets better, things can get better, absolutely,
20:19
Speaker 2: but it's never oh yeah that I had strepped throat
20:23
Speaker 2: one time. That's not how this works. It's just isn't.
20:27
Speaker 2: So you know, getting out of the peaks and then
20:30
Speaker 2: the valleys of like despair, it's extreme hope to extreme
20:35
Speaker 2: despair to extreme hope that is not sustainable. That takes
20:38
Speaker 2: you on a roller coaster ride that you can do
20:40
Speaker 2: for a very short period of time, and then it
20:43
Speaker 2: will take you down, and more importantly, it will take
20:47
Speaker 2: down your relationship and there goes your influence and your
20:50
Speaker 2: actual hope to be impactful for this person that you
20:53
Speaker 2: care so much about. So figuring out how to sort
20:56
Speaker 2: of get it to be a wave that you can sustain.
21:01
Speaker 2: The core the two core words of my you know
21:05
Speaker 2: kind of philosophy is sustainability of family members. How do
21:09
Speaker 2: I keep doing this even if things are good right
21:14
Speaker 2: like you're waiting for the shoot to drop sometimes or
21:16
Speaker 2: you you know, your heart still drops if you get
21:18
Speaker 2: a call late at night or early in the morning,
21:20
Speaker 2: like there's there's fear that that is still there. And
21:24
Speaker 2: how do I connect with this person and in because
21:27
Speaker 2: that's where your that's where your power is. That's where
21:29
Speaker 2: your superpower is, not in control but in connection. So
21:33
Speaker 2: if you can get to a place where you're riding
21:35
Speaker 2: the waves, which you can do that waves are okay,
21:38
Speaker 2: peaks and valleys. That's really hard. It's figuring out how
21:42
Speaker 2: to find the balance and daily very much like somebody
21:47
Speaker 2: who is in their own recovery every single day waking
21:50
Speaker 2: up and going, how am I going to live my
21:53
Speaker 2: life today without my coping mechanism that has helped me
21:57
Speaker 2: in the past but no longer helps me? How do
22:00
Speaker 2: I do this today without drugs or alcohol? How do
22:03
Speaker 2: I do this today in a way that is sustainable
22:06
Speaker 2: as a family member?
22:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, Lisa. I
22:10
Speaker 1: mean it's that balance piece, right, and being able to
22:14
Speaker 1: pivot and adapt to these methods that I used to
22:20
Speaker 1: use are no longer working to help me. So how
22:23
Speaker 1: can I keep an open ended mindset to be like, Okay,
22:29
Speaker 1: let me try this, Let me lean on my support
22:31
Speaker 1: system a little more, because I really don't want to
22:34
Speaker 1: go down that path ever again, you know, and if
22:37
Speaker 1: I do, it's you know, it's okay, right, Like, I'm
22:41
Speaker 1: going to have people there who love me, who see
22:43
Speaker 1: me right right, and let the ones that have changed
22:48
Speaker 1: their address books keep it moving stage left right. So, Lisa,
22:53
Speaker 1: let me just say this has been an amazing conversation.
22:57
Speaker 1: I Thank you so much for coming on. Before we
23:00
Speaker 1: include our conversation today, I'm sure there's other parents or
23:04
Speaker 1: other individuals that are gonna want to connect with you
23:07
Speaker 1: and learn more about Parallel Recovery and also the book
23:10
Speaker 1: under the same name. So can you tell us how
23:13
Speaker 1: can we find you, how can we learn more about
23:15
Speaker 1: your services?
23:16
Speaker 2: Sure, Lisa Katonasmith dot com is my website. All the
23:20
Speaker 2: information is there. My book is now available on Amazon
23:25
Speaker 2: or wherever you get books, Parallel Recovery, and I'm most
23:29
Speaker 2: active on Instagram Parallel Underscore Recovery excellent.
23:34
Speaker 1: So you can connect with Lisa on all platforms. Just
23:37
Speaker 1: go to her website Lisa Katonasmith dot com to find
23:41
Speaker 1: the book all the other things that you want to learn,
23:43
Speaker 1: and then also on Instagram those of you who you know.
23:46
Speaker 1: Whichever platform you want, just do a Google search. I
23:49
Speaker 1: mean literally you can find people now through Google anywhere.
23:52
Speaker 1: So well, everybody, that was Lisa Katona Smith that you
23:57
Speaker 1: heard from, and that concludes another app episode a gruel Porsche.
24:01
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Until next time, Pizza a Greece. Everybody