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BRYAN KOHBERGER WORE PLASTIC GLOVES TO GROCERY STORE AFTER MURDERS? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Breaking news tonight, did Idaho sleigh suspect Brian Coburger actually
0:12
Speaker 2: wear plastic surgical gloves in the grocery store for weeks
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Speaker 2: after the quadruple murders to avoid leaving a trail of
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Speaker 2: evidence and a Coburger cell phone pings tracked along with
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Speaker 2: the victims for weeks before the murders. This as the
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Speaker 2: victim's former roommate breaks her silence to reveal a final
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Speaker 2: text to slave victor Maddie Mogan in an eerie premonition.
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Speaker 1: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
0:45
Speaker 1: you for being with us.
0:46
Speaker 3: He texted, like, our group of friends and I just
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Speaker 3: had said, has anyone heard from Maddie? And I remember
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Speaker 3: like my last text message to her was like are
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Speaker 3: you okay? And I feel like, right then and there,
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Speaker 3: I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
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Speaker 2: That emotional sound of the former roommate from our friends
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Speaker 2: at kxly you were hearing Ashlyn Couch as she desperately
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Speaker 2: tried to reach Mattie Mogan, having no idea what had happened. Again,
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. A lot happening in
1:25
Speaker 2: the Brian Coburger case joining me an All Star panel
1:28
Speaker 2: to make sense of what we know right now, but
1:31
Speaker 2: first listen to this.
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Speaker 4: Ashlyn Couch transferred her lease at eleven twenty two King
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Speaker 4: Road to Xander Kernodle just six months before Kernodle, Ethan
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Speaker 4: Shape and Madison Mogan and Kaylegan's office were slain in
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Speaker 4: the home. Couch remembers getting an alert from the university
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Speaker 4: and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch's
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Speaker 4: last text to Mogan before learning of her death was
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Speaker 4: are you okay? Couch followed up in a group chat
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Speaker 4: with friends. Has anyone heard from Mattie? Couch says, the
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Speaker 4: thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling.
2:00
Speaker 4: That you never know how long someone is watching your house.
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Speaker 2: Wow, again, you are hearing from k xl Y. That
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Speaker 2: was Ashlyn Couch speaking, trying again desperately to get in
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Speaker 2: touch with we now know murder vic to Matti Mogan
2:15
Speaker 2: with me at All Star Panels straight out to Davemack,
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Speaker 2: Crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter, Dave explained to me the
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Speaker 2: time sequence as to what we're hearing from Ashlyn Couch,
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Speaker 2: the former roommate there at King Road.
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Speaker 4: Well, Ashland was talking about how six months before this happened,
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Speaker 4: she actually was moving and so Xana Karnodle took over
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Speaker 4: her part of the lease on the King Road home,
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Speaker 4: got her room, but Ashland was still in contact with
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Speaker 4: her friends from there. And so during that time period
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Speaker 4: when the murders happened, an alert from the college went
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Speaker 4: out and said we've had a homicide near campus. And
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Speaker 4: immediately Ashlyn Couch thought of her friends in the King
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Speaker 4: Road house. That's why she was reaching out right away.
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Speaker 2: Guys, this young girl, Ashlyn Couch now speaking, will she
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Speaker 2: be a witness?
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Speaker 1: What can she.
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Speaker 2: Tell us anything about the King wrote address at all?
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Speaker 2: And you know, to Chris mcdonaugh, a director of the
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Speaker 2: Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
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Speaker 2: homicides under his belt, and host of the popular YouTube
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Speaker 2: channel The Interview Room, you know, Chris mcdonna. The issue here,
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Speaker 2: as far as ashen Couch goes, the fact that she
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Speaker 2: had a premonition that's probably not going to be admissible
3:33
Speaker 2: at trial, The fact that she tried desperately to reach
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Speaker 2: anybody the King wrote address, specifically trying to find out
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Speaker 2: what was happening with Mattie Mogan. When Maddie would not
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Speaker 2: respond that may not come into evidence. However, her knowledge
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Speaker 2: of the home, and I found it very curious what
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Speaker 2: she said when she said, you never know how long
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Speaker 2: somebody has been watching your house?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, Nancy, that that statement in of itself is fascinating.
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Speaker 5: I mean the fact that she has a premonition as well,
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Speaker 5: you know, post the homicides here, that you know, she's
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Speaker 5: thinking when I was there, could somebody have been watching
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Speaker 5: me and or obviously her roommates there. So that itself,
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Speaker 5: I think the authorities, you know, need to dig into that,
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Speaker 5: if they haven't already. That's pretty telling.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 2: Hand in hand with what you were talking about is
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Speaker 2: potential evidence. And we saw it in the Alex Murdog
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Speaker 2: trial where Murdog's phone was traveling along with his wife,
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Speaker 2: Maggie Murdog, before her phone was thrown unceremoniously out of
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Speaker 2: his vehicle the night of the murders. Now reports that
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Speaker 2: we're going to hear evidence that his phone, Brian Cooberger,
4:54
Speaker 2: was spotted in cell phone pings in and around where
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Speaker 2: the victims were in the weeks leading up to the
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Speaker 2: murders to Mark Tate joining me, high profile lawyer out
5:06
Speaker 2: of Savannah, partner with the Tate Law Group.
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Speaker 1: Mark, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 6: It's my pleasure.
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Speaker 2: I know that it has been stated over and over now,
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Speaker 2: contrary to what was first put out there by some
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Speaker 2: of the victims' family members, that Coburger did not specifically stalk.
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Speaker 1: Any of the victims.
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Speaker 2: But what do you make about that, of that potential
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Speaker 2: evidence that where they went on several occasions his cell
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Speaker 2: phone would ping as well.
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Speaker 1: You think that's just a coincidence, Mark Tate, Well it
5:37
Speaker 1: may be.
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Speaker 6: You remember he went to school just eight miles away,
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Speaker 6: And if I was defending this case, I would say,
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Speaker 6: you know, if you're going to use cell phone pings
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Speaker 6: to prosecute him, then you have to look into the
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Speaker 6: fact that he has put forth an acceptably under Idaho law,
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Speaker 6: that he has an alibi, which is he has to
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Speaker 6: state a specific place where he was, and the witnesses
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Speaker 6: who will put him there. The witnesses here are the
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Speaker 6: cell phone pings. So the problem that we have here
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Speaker 6: is that the prosecution is going to use cell phone
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Speaker 6: pings to put him stalking these victims. Then they're going
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Speaker 6: to have to deal with the fact that he says
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Speaker 6: those same pings put him in the woods, stargazing or
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Speaker 6: whatever thing it is he's going to claim he's doing.
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Speaker 6: And so I think that the cell phone pings may
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Speaker 6: be helpful to and interestingly so to both sides, because
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Speaker 6: remember the defendants here, the defense counsel has a job
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Speaker 6: to maintain that this man is innocent until proven guilty
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Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt, and they are fighting very hard.
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Speaker 6: They've made this easy for the prosecutor.
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Speaker 2: Right, Hey, when you're betraying a rock and a hardspot,
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Speaker 2: do you just immediately regurgitate innocent until proven guilty. We
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Speaker 2: all know that everybody watching this program right now is
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Speaker 2: illegal Eagle. They want to know the very latest in
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Speaker 2: every single case. We all know he's presumed until proven innocent.
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Speaker 2: And my question to you, which he very skillfully evaded,
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Speaker 2: is if his cell phone is moving along.
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Speaker 1: Where they go.
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Speaker 2: If they go to this food truck, there's his cell phone.
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Speaker 2: If they go to that restaurant, oop, there he is.
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Speaker 1: Again.
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Speaker 2: I mean, isn't it true, Dave Mack that at one
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Speaker 2: bar he was actually asked to leave because he was
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Speaker 2: making female patrons feel totally schewed out by asking them
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Speaker 2: questions such as, Hey, what's your home address?
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he freaked out. He actually scared people are
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Speaker 4: women in this bar to a point where they actually
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Speaker 4: made a note on the tickets when he had been
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Speaker 4: there previously. It wasn't just one time, Nancy. He had
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Speaker 4: been to this bar several times, and each time it
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Speaker 4: got progressively worse to where none of the women wanted
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Speaker 4: to wait on him anymore.
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Speaker 2: So, you know, to you, Karen start joining us said, boy,
7:41
Speaker 2: do we need a shrink? Karen Start Joining Us are
7:44
Speaker 2: now on TV radio Trauma Expert Psychologists Consultant. It's Karenstark
7:49
Speaker 2: dot Com. Karen with to see Karen, I'm going to
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Speaker 2: circle back to the pings potentially traveling along together and Karen,
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Speaker 2: I haven't even gotten to this dude wearing gloves to
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Speaker 2: the grocery store. I don't mean gloves because it's cold outside,
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Speaker 2: I mean surgeon gloves.
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Speaker 1: Okay, to the grocery store, Karen start. This is not
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Speaker 1: during COVID, where.
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Speaker 2: People would you know, spray four oh nine on their
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Speaker 2: keying goods before they touched them. This isn't now the
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Speaker 2: year and now for weeks after the murders, This guy,
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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger was wearing surgical gloves everywhere he went. I'll
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Speaker 2: go back to that, but what do you make And
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Speaker 2: I'd like to hear the roommate the former roommate.
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Speaker 1: One more time.
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Speaker 2: This is Ashlen Couch on a very emotional statement and
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Speaker 2: this is from our friends a k XL Y listen.
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Speaker 3: I texted like our group of friends, and I just
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Speaker 3: had said, has anyone.
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Speaker 1: Heard from Mady?
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Speaker 3: And I remember like my last text message to her
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Speaker 3: was like are you okay? And I feel like then
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Speaker 3: and there, I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
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Speaker 1: Karen start.
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Speaker 2: How many times have we heard that where a victim's
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Speaker 2: family member or friend would know instinctively that something was
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Speaker 2: horribly wrong. And there's a whole issue of survivor's guilt,
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Speaker 2: Karen Stark. If I had called her earlier, if I
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Speaker 2: had asked her out that night, if we had been
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Speaker 2: at fill in the blank, if and then fill in
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Speaker 2: the blank, that's what a lot of the friends are
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Speaker 2: going through.
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Speaker 7: Of course they are, Nancy, because we all know what
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Speaker 7: that's like. When you think if I had only been
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Speaker 7: able to and what's interesting we all have. I'm pretty
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Speaker 7: sure that experience of you have a feeling, you have
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Speaker 7: an instinct that something is wrong. And I know it
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Speaker 7: happens to me. We used to have them with my
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Speaker 7: mother all the time. It happens with my brother, my husband.
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Speaker 7: Sometimes you are so connected to people that you just
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Speaker 7: have a feeling that something is going on with them.
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Speaker 7: I think it's even happened between the two of us.
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Speaker 7: I've had that with you, You've had it with me.
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Speaker 7: When you know somebody really well, you are connected to
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Speaker 7: them over distance and you can feel it. And that's
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Speaker 7: what she's describing. We can all relate to that. We're
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Speaker 7: in the gloves. That's him protecting himself. This is a
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Speaker 7: man in total control, has to be on top of everything,
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Speaker 7: and now he's wearing gloves so that you can't get
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Speaker 7: near his DNA.
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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised about that.
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Speaker 2: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, jo Scott Morgan joining me.
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Speaker 2: Professor Forenzigs, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon and start hit series Body Bags with
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Scott, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: I know in your line of business, having been to
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Speaker 2: over ten thousand death scenes in your career, you have
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Speaker 2: had many people say I knew something was wrong, and
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Speaker 2: it's one thing to embellish the facts as you look
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Speaker 2: back retrospectively. But this young girl, Ashley Couch, was actually
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Speaker 2: frantically trying to text all of her friends trying to find.
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Speaker 1: Out where is Mattie.
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Speaker 2: Because Jo Scott, you and I reveal a lot of
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Speaker 2: evidence it was atypical of Maddie mac not to respond
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Speaker 2: and that struck concern as the hours ticked by.
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Speaker 8: It gives you pause. I think when you're conducting an investigation,
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Speaker 8: if someone deviates from their normal day to day routines,
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Speaker 8: and particularly when you're talking about responding to friends that
11:49
Speaker 8: are considered to be within your intimate circle, that's something
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Speaker 8: that would give an individual pause. But Nacy, I have
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Speaker 8: another kind of chilling little side note about this and
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Speaker 8: this young lady. You know she moved on from her lease,
12:04
Speaker 8: and do you know when she moved on from her
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Speaker 8: lease and turned it over, It approximates almost the same
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Speaker 8: exact time that Coburg shows up up in Washington. This
12:15
Speaker 8: goes back to I think probably June May perhaps, And
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Speaker 8: that's another little chilling piece to this can you imagine
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Speaker 8: now retrospectively, that Ashlynd is sitting back and thinking about this,
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Speaker 8: that you know, almost one of those there, but for
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Speaker 8: the grace of God go I moments and again it
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Speaker 8: adds another layer of horror to this Nancy.
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Speaker 1: You know one thing.
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Speaker 2: I've really hated throughout this, Joscott Morgan, is the way
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Speaker 2: that some of the victims have been portrayed as like
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Speaker 2: party girls, tramps.
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Speaker 1: Staying out too late drinking. That's not true. Yes, they
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Speaker 1: were out that night, they were heading into the Thanksgiving weekend.
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Speaker 1: They were not.
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Speaker 2: Out any later than any other student would be on
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Speaker 2: a party night. None of these girls have arrest histories.
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Speaker 1: No, nothing like that. They're all making.
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Speaker 2: Good grades, They're beloved by their family. And you know what,
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Speaker 2: Joscott Morgan, as I always say, birds of a feather
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Speaker 2: flock together. When I look at Ashland Couch and I
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Speaker 2: hear her speak, that tells me not only who she is,
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Speaker 2: but who her friends are. I mean, just Scott, I
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Speaker 2: don't see you hanging out with the dope dealer down
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Speaker 2: at the corner. Why because you have nothing in common
13:38
Speaker 2: in college in law school, people go, hey, did you go.
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Speaker 1: To that party? Friday night. I'm like, no, I'm studying.
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Speaker 2: I got two jobs and I've got to get through
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Speaker 2: law school and I got to pass the bar on
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Speaker 2: the first try.
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Speaker 1: That's not what I was doing.
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Speaker 2: I have my eye on a different prize. When I
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Speaker 2: look at Ashlyn Couch, the good girl, that tells me
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Speaker 2: who these victims were. And I've had it about up
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Speaker 2: to hear with people trashing them or their parents or
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Speaker 2: their mom or I think is so wrong, and that
14:11
Speaker 2: is going to happen at this trial unless the judge
14:14
Speaker 2: wakes up and pays attention.
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Speaker 8: One of the things I found fascinating about her interaction
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Speaker 8: and particularly where she was domiciled in this location, and
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Speaker 8: you know you were mentioning earlier, could she testify this
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Speaker 8: is what I think personally, that she's going to testify
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Speaker 8: to kind of the standard rattle and hum of what
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Speaker 8: it was like living in that home. Remember, as you
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Speaker 8: had mentioned talking about party and all this sort of thing.
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Speaker 8: One of the things that came out early on in
14:38
Speaker 8: this case was this thought that this was party central. Right,
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Speaker 8: no one knows the codes to the door. It's always open,
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Speaker 8: the sliders are open. People can come and go as
14:48
Speaker 8: they please. Well, Ashlyn. I think kind of from a
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Speaker 8: historic standpoint, she will be able to talk about that
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Speaker 8: as she lived there, and this is not something that
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Speaker 8: perhaps just occurred out of the blue. If this was
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Speaker 8: a party location, it had been a party location for
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Speaker 8: a while, and I think that that's gonna be rather
15:05
Speaker 8: probative in this case.
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Speaker 2: Hey, and another thing about that, Joe Scott Morgan, I
15:09
Speaker 2: will never forget. I moved into off campus housing with
15:13
Speaker 2: some other co eds.
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Speaker 1: This is an undergrad and I had my parents come visit.
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Speaker 2: I got it all ready and cleaned at everything. Well,
15:24
Speaker 2: wouldn't you know, this was on a Saturday night. They
15:26
Speaker 2: were coming Sunday after church. I was waiting on them.
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Speaker 2: Little did I know that the guys below me I
15:33
Speaker 2: lived on the top floor, the SAEs. I had no
15:37
Speaker 2: idea who they were. I never knew them, had had
15:40
Speaker 2: a huge kegger in the front yard and had somebody
15:45
Speaker 2: had spray painted curse words all on the interior of
15:49
Speaker 2: when my parents walked in. I'm not even gonna say
15:51
Speaker 2: what they were, but they alluded to sex acts. And
15:54
Speaker 2: my parents walked in and see this in red spray painted.
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Speaker 2: I had not even seen. I was, you know, mortified,
16:01
Speaker 2: so I think you're right, this girl ashen Couch could
16:05
Speaker 2: testify to you say, the home and the flow of
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Speaker 2: living there. But I was thinking about something else, Joe Scott.
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Speaker 2: I was thinking about, you know that sliding glass door
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Speaker 2: that Chris mcdonna and I kept looking at, wondering if
16:17
Speaker 2: that was the point of entry. I wonder if she
16:19
Speaker 2: could testify if it locked, if it was easily accessible,
16:22
Speaker 2: and there's one on each level.
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Speaker 1: Were there ever alarms in the home? So many things?
16:29
Speaker 2: Also during these parties, could somebody sneak in and out
16:32
Speaker 2: that wasn't invited? You see where I'm headed. She is
16:35
Speaker 2: really a Pandora's box of information about the murder scene.
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Speaker 8: Yeah she is. And you know you talk about the
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Speaker 8: functionality this door's access and opportunity. Of course she's going
16:46
Speaker 8: to be the only one to be able to tell
16:48
Speaker 8: that tale, now, isn't she?
16:49
Speaker 2: Nancy?
16:49
Speaker 8: Because we can't go back to the physical structure.
16:51
Speaker 2: Well, you've got you've got the two roommates that survived.
16:55
Speaker 1: Remember we do.
16:57
Speaker 8: But I think that that perhaps in this particular case,
17:01
Speaker 8: you know, when it gets down to it, can she
17:03
Speaker 8: actually and again this goes back to history, if the
17:06
Speaker 8: door was not functioning the lock did not work. How
17:09
Speaker 8: far back in time does she go, as like this
17:11
Speaker 8: place her place of residence. How long had it been
17:15
Speaker 8: for instance, if it was, how long had it not
17:17
Speaker 8: been functioning. I'd like to know the answer to that
17:20
Speaker 8: question and the points of access. Could someone be heard
17:24
Speaker 8: coming in through that door again acoustically? She's going to
17:26
Speaker 8: be able to testify to that.
17:28
Speaker 9: A friend of an officer working the Brian Coburger murder
17:32
Speaker 9: investigation says Coburger was very careful in the days before
17:36
Speaker 9: his arrest. The source says the cop followed Coburger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania,
17:42
Speaker 9: and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries
17:46
Speaker 9: at a local Giant store. The cop also said that
17:49
Speaker 9: Coberger's cell phone pings matched the movements of the victims
17:53
Speaker 9: for weeks before the murders.
17:55
Speaker 1: Oh, just right, till the jury hears this, listen.
17:58
Speaker 2: You cannot under the law under the US Constitution as
18:01
Speaker 2: it has been interpreted through case law cases that have
18:04
Speaker 2: occurred after the Constitution. Of course, you cannot bring in
18:10
Speaker 2: a suspect a defendant's bad reputation. You cannot bring in
18:16
Speaker 2: evidence of bad acts unless they can be verified, and
18:20
Speaker 2: they are similar to the case in chief, and we're
18:23
Speaker 2: in a timely manner. But here when the police surveillance,
18:28
Speaker 2: if this is confirmed, police surveillance are following Coburger and
18:34
Speaker 2: they see him wearing plastic gloves into the grocery store,
18:40
Speaker 2: apparently wearing plastic surgical type gloves for weeks after the murders.
18:47
Speaker 2: Why And you're gonna hate this Mark tape, which makes
18:51
Speaker 2: me super happy. Mark Tap renowned defense attorney.
18:55
Speaker 1: You know what I love to tell a jury if
18:57
Speaker 1: you don't know a horse. Look at that is track
19:00
Speaker 1: record number one.
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Speaker 2: While these same cops were watching Coburger, they knew they
19:08
Speaker 2: were going to arrest him. They were trying to get
19:11
Speaker 2: DNA evidence. They already had some DNA evidence. Now they
19:15
Speaker 2: needed the dad's DNA evidences. Driving along with Coburger, the
19:18
Speaker 2: dad's just chatting away like nothing's wrong with the Coburger's.
19:21
Speaker 1: Like, what the why are the cops pulling us over? Okay,
19:26
Speaker 1: stay with me.
19:28
Speaker 2: They're watching Coburger and they see Coburger outside putting the
19:35
Speaker 2: family trash in the neighbors trash cans the dumpster, wearing gloves.
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Speaker 1: Wait, not done yet, Not done yet.
19:46
Speaker 2: There were other times he's seen wearing gloves. Why why
19:51
Speaker 2: is he wearing gloves all the time?
19:53
Speaker 1: Mark Tate?
19:54
Speaker 2: And how do you think that is going to affect
19:57
Speaker 2: a jury?
19:59
Speaker 1: Oh, I know it was. It came.
20:01
Speaker 2: I gotta tell you more so when they arrest Coburger, Okay,
20:05
Speaker 2: when they arrest him.
20:06
Speaker 1: When they go it to his parents' home in.
20:08
Speaker 2: The Poconos, they go in, it's like two, three, four
20:12
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning.
20:13
Speaker 1: Coburger is standing there in the kitchen. Why is he up?
20:17
Speaker 2: And everybody else is asleep in the middle of the
20:19
Speaker 2: night and shorts.
20:21
Speaker 6: I don't know you this morning. Well, no one's checking
20:26
Speaker 6: out what you're wearing.
20:27
Speaker 1: It you were.
20:30
Speaker 6: Gloves, gloves, all rights.
20:35
Speaker 1: And that's just off the top of my head. One
20:37
Speaker 1: of the cops can tell me about more instances and
20:39
Speaker 1: wearing gloves.
20:40
Speaker 6: And in one instance he was throwing trash away. Can
20:44
Speaker 6: you think of a better reason to wear gloves?
20:46
Speaker 1: Now?
20:47
Speaker 6: In the other instance, so I.
20:48
Speaker 1: Can't get my DNA with rupel murder, that's a good reason.
20:53
Speaker 6: Yeah, I understand, No, I got you, But maybe throwing
20:55
Speaker 6: trash away it's okay to wear gloves. I don't know.
20:58
Speaker 6: That's not something I think i'd rest my I had on.
21:00
Speaker 6: As a prosecutor, however, I every single line that you mentioned,
21:05
Speaker 6: well that he might have a problem win in this case.
21:07
Speaker 6: I mean, you know you're not prosecuting it. So every
21:09
Speaker 6: single time that a prosecutor comes up with a new
21:13
Speaker 6: piece of evidence that requires witnesses to get in, as
21:16
Speaker 6: a defense lawyer, I find that to be wonderful because
21:20
Speaker 6: that gives me a whole nother opportunity to ask questions
21:23
Speaker 6: that may or may not help me argue that there
21:26
Speaker 6: is a reason to have a doubt about the guilt
21:29
Speaker 6: of this man. And every witness is vulnerable, and some
21:32
Speaker 6: of these people are going to rely on are not
21:34
Speaker 6: experienced in handling the cross examination that I intend to
21:37
Speaker 6: bring them. And if I'm able to say at the
21:39
Speaker 6: end of the case that the prosecutor relies on this
21:41
Speaker 6: person who's unreliable, then why should you convict We saw
21:46
Speaker 6: it happen, You and I saw it happen together when
21:48
Speaker 6: a man who murdered a woman and the man who
21:51
Speaker 6: was driving is Ferrari around town walked because a glove
21:54
Speaker 6: didn't fit. And I'm just saying that there is no
21:58
Speaker 6: foregone conclusion in any youury trial, and these defense lawyers
22:01
Speaker 6: are going to put this prosecution team to the test.
22:04
Speaker 2: Clearly to Chris mcdunnad joining me veteran homicide detective and
22:08
Speaker 2: your star. No, no, no, no, I'm going to somebody
22:11
Speaker 2: that's let me just say a little less impeachable, Chris mcdonna,
22:17
Speaker 2: have you ever heard which apparently they did not teach
22:20
Speaker 2: us to mark Tate in moot court in law schools
22:23
Speaker 2: SDSU sit down and shut up. Okay, that's just one
22:30
Speaker 2: of those things you should learn. As hard for us
22:32
Speaker 2: lawyers to do that because we think we can just
22:35
Speaker 2: keep talking and then suddenly everybody's gonna agree with us.
22:38
Speaker 1: Uh uh. You tell twelve people.
22:43
Speaker 2: That this guy has got on surgical gloves in the
22:48
Speaker 2: grocery store.
22:48
Speaker 1: You know why he did that?
22:50
Speaker 2: Right, if this could be confirmed, because he's heard about
22:53
Speaker 2: all those cases we've been talking about. Wait till jo
22:56
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan jumps in on DNA Where cops can get
22:59
Speaker 2: your DNA off a beer can.
23:01
Speaker 1: A coffee cup, a pizza crust.
23:03
Speaker 2: This guy was wearing gloves when he was getting rid
23:07
Speaker 2: of trash in the neighbors Dixie dumpster.
23:10
Speaker 1: When he was sorting through.
23:12
Speaker 2: Trash and putting it into plastic zip lock bags in
23:16
Speaker 2: his kitchen, his parents' kitchen.
23:18
Speaker 1: And it just goes on and on and on.
23:22
Speaker 2: I can't wait for a jury of twelve regular people
23:25
Speaker 2: like us to hear this guy about his surgical gloves
23:29
Speaker 2: all around the time with the murders.
23:30
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, it just happens to be
23:33
Speaker 5: a coincidence that, you know, he decides to throw his
23:36
Speaker 5: trash out in his neighbor's ben and then of course,
23:39
Speaker 5: you know he takes these four am drives, or at
23:43
Speaker 5: least he's awake at four am. You know, every moment
23:46
Speaker 5: you think about this guy. If you look at all
23:48
Speaker 5: of his phone pings, you know, does the guy ever sleep?
23:52
Speaker 5: You know where we're not seeing these gloves though, one
23:56
Speaker 5: All of these these glove incidents show up post incident.
24:00
Speaker 5: But you know where we're not seeing it. We're not
24:02
Speaker 5: seeing it in the classroom before the incident. We're not
24:05
Speaker 5: seeing it in any of the photos of traffic stops
24:09
Speaker 5: where he stopped before the homicides. And guess what, we're
24:12
Speaker 5: not seeing it in the courtroom today. So I don't
24:15
Speaker 5: know what the deal is. You know that a jury
24:17
Speaker 5: wouldn't you know, say, why is this guy wearing gloves
24:20
Speaker 5: at four a m. And you know, good luck for
24:22
Speaker 5: the defense on trying.
24:24
Speaker 1: To show on.
24:24
Speaker 2: Let me throw this to our DNA expert, Joseph Scott Morgan,
24:28
Speaker 2: Professor Forensics.
24:29
Speaker 1: You know, all of this.
24:30
Speaker 2: Is just anecdote on my back and forth with Mark.
24:33
Speaker 2: Take that anecdotal telling a story. Okay?
24:38
Speaker 1: Can we talk about hard evidence if it's true?
24:42
Speaker 2: To look at the horses track record, you know what
24:44
Speaker 2: that would tell me that he wore surgical gloves at
24:48
Speaker 2: some point that night, Okay, when he was in that
24:53
Speaker 2: home murdering those four people. And you may ask Joe
24:56
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, then how would his DNA be on the
24:59
Speaker 2: knife shift?
25:00
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. How many times do.
25:02
Speaker 2: You think an anal compulsive like Brian Coberger had practiced
25:07
Speaker 2: opening that knife and fiddling with that knife and playing
25:10
Speaker 2: with that knife and admiring that knife.
25:13
Speaker 1: That's how the DNA got on there.
25:15
Speaker 2: I think I think you were surgical gloves that night,
25:17
Speaker 2: and I would be very surprised if we find his
25:19
Speaker 2: actual fingerprints anywhere in that home.
25:22
Speaker 8: It'd be tough to find, I think, and we probably
25:25
Speaker 8: would have an indication of that. But yeah, I've held
25:28
Speaker 8: throughout this, you know, when they found that sheath and
25:31
Speaker 8: that contact DNA was there on that the snap, I
25:35
Speaker 8: always had this idea of of of him actuating the button,
25:41
Speaker 8: you know, sitting there with that snap, trying to flick
25:44
Speaker 8: it back and forth to see how smoothly he could
25:47
Speaker 8: do that. And some people have said, and I've had
25:50
Speaker 8: people say this to me about this, well, why wasn't
25:53
Speaker 8: his DNA found on other locations on the sheath? And
25:58
Speaker 8: this is what I submit it. I think that he
26:01
Speaker 8: may have wiped that sheath down at some point in time,
26:04
Speaker 8: But the devil is always in the details. Nancy. That
26:07
Speaker 8: little hidden underneath side of that snap, which I think
26:11
Speaker 8: is where they probably recovered it, is not a place
26:14
Speaker 8: that you would commonly consider to wipe it down if
26:18
Speaker 8: you're looking to get rid of anything that was there,
26:22
Speaker 8: that would be an identifier for you. It's an area
26:25
Speaker 8: that he may have missed and he left it behind
26:28
Speaker 8: in that one tiny area. I'm also interested in what
26:32
Speaker 8: type of gloves he had at his home. Did they
26:36
Speaker 8: find other gloves, So that's going to be a big
26:38
Speaker 8: tell in this case. Nancy.
26:40
Speaker 10: Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk
26:42
Speaker 10: about the different parts of that video that we've received
26:46
Speaker 10: and how we need the whole contacts. This is the
26:49
Speaker 10: video that they say places this car near the residence.
26:53
Speaker 10: We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's
26:58
Speaker 10: right to a fair try. I mean, the public needs
27:01
Speaker 10: to know that they've withheld the audio from a great
27:05
Speaker 10: portion of that and that it starts a long time
27:08
Speaker 10: before the little clip that we've received.
27:10
Speaker 1: Man, is she burying the lead.
27:12
Speaker 2: She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video.
27:18
Speaker 1: Here's the bombshell.
27:20
Speaker 2: There you are hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koburger
27:23
Speaker 2: and Taylor talking about the existence of video that places
27:30
Speaker 2: Coburger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene.
27:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the big deal.
27:41
Speaker 2: We believe that there's going to be two different video
27:45
Speaker 2: clips shown to the jury, one near the home and
27:50
Speaker 2: one near the gas station there at the corner. And
27:55
Speaker 2: I'm going to let Chris mcdonnet describe the gas station
27:59
Speaker 2: video what he believes it will portray, and the video
28:02
Speaker 2: at the home we believe is going to portray. Guys
28:05
Speaker 2: with me, an all star panel makes sense of what
28:07
Speaker 2: we know, right now go ahay, Chris McDonald, everybody take
28:10
Speaker 2: off your gloves. I promise not to collect your DNA. Well,
28:14
Speaker 2: not during the show anyway, Go ahead.
28:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, So Nancy, right next to the murder scene, there's
28:20
Speaker 5: a house right on the corner there, and outside in
28:25
Speaker 5: the light socket for the front porch was an active
28:30
Speaker 5: surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence will show that
28:35
Speaker 5: that car comes up that street multiple times, and those
28:39
Speaker 5: are the clips that they're holding back, as well as
28:43
Speaker 5: the additional piece of evidence that they're going to show
28:46
Speaker 5: is away from the scene. They're going to show that
28:49
Speaker 5: that vehicle was either a coming into the crime scene
28:52
Speaker 5: area and or be leaving. And I don't know if
28:55
Speaker 5: they're going to be able to correlate that in relationship
28:58
Speaker 5: to some of the phone things, because remember he turned
29:01
Speaker 5: his phone off, so you know, that end of itself
29:05
Speaker 5: is going to be interesting. Now, What's one other thing
29:07
Speaker 5: I just want to make a point on here is
29:10
Speaker 5: you know, the defense is saying they need to see
29:12
Speaker 5: this video, yet they held the alibi for over a year,
29:18
Speaker 5: so my sense is they're still working on that particular
29:22
Speaker 5: forensic side of the evidence that's going.
29:24
Speaker 6: To be presented.
29:32
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace too Jessine Scott Morgan, forensic.
29:40
Speaker 2: Expert and professor at Jacksonville State University. I was listening
29:44
Speaker 2: to every word she says, and she's saying that they've
29:48
Speaker 2: gotten tiny pieces of the car near the residence.
29:52
Speaker 1: You know what that tells me?
29:53
Speaker 2: Also tiny pieces of the car, and she wants it
29:57
Speaker 2: in context. That tells me there may be be more
30:00
Speaker 2: than one surveillance video around the King Road.
30:04
Speaker 1: Murder scene that's catching the car.
30:07
Speaker 2: Do you remember the Photus Dulo's prosecution where missing Connecticut
30:11
Speaker 2: mama find Jennifer Dulos went missing and there was a
30:15
Speaker 2: copious amount of.
30:16
Speaker 1: Blood, her blood found in the garage. You couldn't survive
30:20
Speaker 1: the loss of that much blood, so we know she's dead.
30:23
Speaker 1: And then the police.
30:24
Speaker 2: There in Connecticut put together it was pretty incredible. Let
30:30
Speaker 2: me just say, yes, Yes, a whole scene, a whole
30:36
Speaker 2: timeline via different video of what Photus Dulos, the husband
30:41
Speaker 2: now did, was doing.
30:44
Speaker 1: You see him leaving, You see it.
30:46
Speaker 2: Pick up with a red light cam seeing him cutting through.
30:51
Speaker 2: You see him from a business cam surveillance video going
30:56
Speaker 2: back and all the time he's going straight to the
30:57
Speaker 2: car wash to get the car detail, but yet still
31:01
Speaker 2: and even replacing the back seat which still had Jennifer's
31:05
Speaker 2: hair on it and blood. As I recall, even when
31:08
Speaker 2: a public bus door opened, you see his cargo by
31:11
Speaker 2: because a lot of the buses have cams in them,
31:14
Speaker 2: and they put together a collage to show his movements.
31:19
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hearing right here is Ann Taylor is
31:23
Speaker 2: complaining about little tiny pieces of the video placing the
31:28
Speaker 2: car near the residents, according to police, and.
31:31
Speaker 1: She doesn't like that, and she thinks that's not fair.
31:34
Speaker 2: But what it is is different video cameras picking him
31:38
Speaker 2: up along the way.
31:39
Speaker 1: Did you decipher that? Am I feeding you? Spoon feeding you?
31:44
Speaker 11: No?
31:44
Speaker 8: Here's the thing, you know, these ring cams and these
31:47
Speaker 8: CCTV obviously they're more prevalent today than at any other
31:52
Speaker 8: point in time in history, and so we don't necessarily
31:55
Speaker 8: know about where all of these clips are coming from.
31:59
Speaker 8: We do know that the area that he was in,
32:01
Speaker 8: allegedly this car moving back and forth, is going to
32:05
Speaker 8: be the most densely populated area in this geographic location.
32:09
Speaker 8: You know, you get out in these areas that are
32:11
Speaker 8: far flong. Remember the loop that they talk about that
32:14
Speaker 8: where they collected. They were trying to collect images off
32:17
Speaker 8: of these gas station cams and wherever else the car
32:20
Speaker 8: may have passed, this is going to be the target
32:22
Speaker 8: rich area though around that residence at that point in time,
32:26
Speaker 8: because you never know, you know, and you think about
32:29
Speaker 8: just for instance, you think about one of these cars
32:31
Speaker 8: like a Tesla for instance, that has an indwelling cam
32:34
Speaker 8: that can pick things up. Did they shake the bushes
32:37
Speaker 8: enough to collect enough of this data out there to
32:40
Speaker 8: piece the sin completely together? Apparently she thinks they may have.
32:43
Speaker 5: Nancy at least say that this ALII is you now
32:51
Speaker 5: driving around.
32:52
Speaker 7: That I work.
32:57
Speaker 5: And that is alilar.
32:59
Speaker 12: So what the defend has still failed to is to
33:04
Speaker 12: comply by the nineteen five nineteen and I are portable
33:08
Speaker 12: point one. The specific number requires a defendant to provide
33:14
Speaker 12: identify on natings of witnesses who will be called the
33:17
Speaker 12: support the alibi the law of their accesses.
33:20
Speaker 2: Okay, the alibi was ripped apart by the prosecutor in
33:26
Speaker 2: the last hearing, and there's.
33:27
Speaker 1: A very good reason for that.
33:30
Speaker 2: Just as the state has to hand over all of
33:32
Speaker 2: their witnesses and how to contact their witnesses for the
33:35
Speaker 2: defense to have the opportunity to interview them prior to trial.
33:39
Speaker 1: The defense has to do that too. So why is
33:42
Speaker 1: it that the.
33:43
Speaker 2: Only corroboration mark tape that Coburger is bringing on is
33:48
Speaker 2: a set of cell phone pings?
33:50
Speaker 6: But there's nothing wrong with that. The prosecution has indicated
33:54
Speaker 6: they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the
33:57
Speaker 6: rule the law about alibi and who is anytime after
34:01
Speaker 6: arraignment you're allowed to tell the defendants, tell the prosecutors
34:05
Speaker 6: rather that you're going to rely on alibi, and you
34:07
Speaker 6: have to disclose your witnesses. However, here the witnesses are
34:11
Speaker 6: cell phone pings, just like the prosecutions relying on cell
34:15
Speaker 6: phone pings. So is the defendant rely allowed to rely
34:18
Speaker 6: as well. Now, of course that's going to be put
34:21
Speaker 6: in front of a jury, just like issues about whether
34:23
Speaker 6: he wore gloves and how strange that is. All of
34:26
Speaker 6: that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom are
34:29
Speaker 6: subject to a sifting cross examination. And so now the
34:33
Speaker 6: prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense, and
34:37
Speaker 6: when there is, it has to be supported by admissible evidence.
34:40
Speaker 6: And so with each week.
34:43
Speaker 1: Evidence to me, I got it.
34:45
Speaker 2: Hey, that's what the defense layer has to do.
34:50
Speaker 1: That's what they update.
34:51
Speaker 6: A little bit of prosecution feet to the fire.
34:55
Speaker 1: Can you put up that graphic?
34:59
Speaker 2: I've got a pair here for you, but maybe you
35:01
Speaker 2: could borry Koburger's.
35:02
Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, they're in evidence.
35:04
Speaker 2: You know, as we were talking earlier, uh, joining me,
35:08
Speaker 2: Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you
35:10
Speaker 2: didn't get to say it on air, but Tate is
35:13
Speaker 2: all about, Oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him.
35:16
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Okay, he's at home to forty two
35:21
Speaker 2: he said, hum back at home at five point twenty seven.
35:24
Speaker 2: He's at home at not nine thirty two am, but
35:28
Speaker 2: wait a minute. Four point fifty phone ping, four forty eight,
35:32
Speaker 2: phone turned back on. Wait, two forty seven am, right
35:36
Speaker 2: before the murders.
35:38
Speaker 1: In the middle of the night while.
35:39
Speaker 2: He's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off
35:43
Speaker 2: from two forty seven to four forty eight. Wow, Chris mcdona,
35:49
Speaker 2: is that exactly when the time that murders occurred?
35:51
Speaker 6: Yeah?
35:52
Speaker 5: Absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting a little and you going
35:55
Speaker 5: to do it out?
35:57
Speaker 13: You know. The one thing we learned about this shalliby
36:00
Speaker 13: as well is all four of the victims are sound asleep,
36:04
Speaker 13: and you know the twelve other times that he was
36:06
Speaker 13: seen around that neighborhood, they were also asleep.
36:10
Speaker 5: But in this particular case, you have the phone things
36:13
Speaker 5: that get up to the point where they turn off
36:15
Speaker 5: and then all of a sudden, the video picks it
36:18
Speaker 5: back up in the neighborhood. I eve the car. So
36:21
Speaker 5: you know, to try to sell that, you know, from
36:25
Speaker 5: the defense. Whenever you hear a defense attorney say, you know,
36:29
Speaker 5: the public has a right to know, and there's a
36:31
Speaker 5: gag er, that's usually a clue that there's something coming.
36:35
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't think the public has a right to know.
36:38
Speaker 6: I think that the defendant has a right to know.
36:40
Speaker 6: There's nothing about this. This is the public has a
36:43
Speaker 6: right to know. That's the defendant's right to know to
36:45
Speaker 6: defend himself. So I don't really care about the public
36:48
Speaker 6: indefendent this guy. I'm just saying that, you know, if
36:50
Speaker 6: the prosecution can use pings, the defendant can use pings.
36:55
Speaker 11: Coburger has spent over five hundred days in jail awaiting trial.
37:00
Speaker 11: Every day in the jail cost one hundred and ninety
37:02
Speaker 11: four dollars, totaling nearly one hundred thousand dollars so far.
37:07
Speaker 11: Coburger's defense team bills over five hundred dollars an hour.
37:11
Speaker 11: The hours police spent costs nearly a million dollars. The
37:14
Speaker 11: University of Idaho left with a massive bill, spending one
37:18
Speaker 11: point four million dollars on increased security and another two
37:22
Speaker 11: hundred thousand on counseling individual It's estimated taxpayers spent roughly
37:28
Speaker 11: three point six million as a result of the murders day.
37:32
Speaker 1: Matt, what did I just.
37:33
Speaker 4: Hear well for Brian Coberger's defense team to pretty much
37:37
Speaker 4: spend at will. I never heard of anything like this
37:41
Speaker 4: in my life, Nancy Grace.
37:42
Speaker 2: Okay, a total of three point six million dollars the
37:47
Speaker 2: taxpayers are paid for Coburger.
37:49
Speaker 4: When they say we paid that the taxpayer money, I
37:52
Speaker 4: wish they would actually send me a question here about
37:54
Speaker 4: what I'm willing to pay for, you know, ahead of time,
37:56
Speaker 4: because this is ridiculous.
37:58
Speaker 2: Three point six million billion dollars on Coburger and all
38:03
Speaker 2: of his defense attorneys and experts. We're now learning about
38:08
Speaker 2: Coburger bringing on another expert to try and shore up
38:12
Speaker 2: his alibi che ching.
38:15
Speaker 4: Listen the document filed serves the Coburger's official alibi and
38:18
Speaker 4: claims quote mister Coburger was out driving in the early
38:22
Speaker 4: morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two, as he
38:25
Speaker 4: often did to hike and run and or see the
38:28
Speaker 4: moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington,
38:32
Speaker 4: west of Moscow, Idaho, including well why we Park. To
38:35
Speaker 4: further solidify his alibi, Coberger said he plans to offer
38:38
Speaker 4: testimony from a CSLI expert to show that he was
38:42
Speaker 4: south of Pullman and west of Moscow at the time
38:44
Speaker 4: of the murders, and that he did not travel east
38:47
Speaker 4: on the Moscow Pullman Highway in the early morning hours
38:50
Speaker 4: of November thirteen, twenty twenty two.
38:52
Speaker 2: Okay, Chris McDonald, what is a CSLI expert?
38:57
Speaker 5: That expert, Nancy will be an individual that will be
39:00
Speaker 5: able to tell investigators in or a jury what the
39:04
Speaker 5: signature is of that phone, i e. The information coming
39:08
Speaker 5: out of that phone to the nearby cell telligence you know.
39:10
Speaker 1: To you, Karen Stark, I know.
39:13
Speaker 2: I hope the state doesn't get bogged down in a
39:17
Speaker 2: lot of scientific evidence. That's what happened in the Tottenham
39:20
Speaker 2: Casey Anthony trial. Where she killed her daughter Kelly and
39:25
Speaker 2: was acquitted. But that evidence was true, but it did
39:30
Speaker 2: get bogged down. You know what once the jury hears
39:34
Speaker 2: that after the murders, this guy went everywhere wearing plastic gloves.
39:41
Speaker 2: You know, I don't need an expert to tell me
39:43
Speaker 2: that's evidence of guilt.
39:44
Speaker 1: And I don't mean just that, Karen Stark, not just that.
39:47
Speaker 2: Of course, the DNA on the knife, the fact that
39:51
Speaker 2: he ordered the exact same knife and she from Amazon.
39:54
Speaker 2: But what it's missing, nobody can find it. The cell phone,
39:58
Speaker 2: the video stream cobble together where we see his movements
40:02
Speaker 2: that night. There's so much evidence, Karen, much less this.
40:08
Speaker 7: You're talking about a guy who needs complete control and dominance. Nancy.
40:13
Speaker 7: I know this is going to come out. And how
40:15
Speaker 7: telling is it that the phone is on and right
40:19
Speaker 7: before the murders he turns it off, And that to
40:22
Speaker 7: me is completely compelling. And this guy, he has a
40:26
Speaker 7: history of steering at women to the point where they
40:30
Speaker 7: throw him out of restaurants. But he's been complained about,
40:35
Speaker 7: he's been said that he's odd. He takes control in
40:37
Speaker 7: a classroom, he has his studies how to do murders.
40:42
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Karen Stark.
40:44
Speaker 2: It hasn't come out yet, and I don't think that
40:47
Speaker 2: it will be part of the evidence because it will
40:50
Speaker 2: be very inflammatory. But when I was in Moscow and
40:54
Speaker 2: around Pullman speaking to people there, several female steertudents came
41:01
Speaker 2: up to talk about how angry he would act at them,
41:04
Speaker 2: great them.
41:05
Speaker 1: Much more severely than he did men.
41:08
Speaker 2: I mean, it was very compelling evidence that this guy
41:13
Speaker 2: hates women. I mean, I had to be a strength
41:15
Speaker 2: to figure out why. But I bet the jury will
41:18
Speaker 2: never hear all that. Everything changing every day in the
41:24
Speaker 2: lead up to this trial. Let's stop and remember American
41:28
Speaker 2: hero Captain Jack Casey.
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Speaker 1: Just twenty six.
41:32
Speaker 2: Casey passed away with four other Marines and a helicopter
41:35
Speaker 2: crash this February. A US Marine, he earned the National
41:39
Speaker 2: Defense Service Medal. He has survived by grieving wife Emma,
41:44
Speaker 2: his mother Catherine, and his father James. American hero Captain
41:50
Speaker 2: Jack Casey. Everyone, I want to thank you for being
41:55
Speaker 2: with us tonight. Thank you to our guests as well.
41:58
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,