Latest / Age Defiantly with Mark Young / The Supplement Industry's Dirty Secret with Shawn Wells

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The Supplement Industry's Dirty Secret with Shawn Wells · Age Defiantly with Mark Young

• 0:00
  Proprietary blend, you can have 17 ingredients, all listed, ginseng, creatine, L-carnitine, you're like, oh, I know all these ingredients, oh, cool, that's all in there? And then it lists one number, that entire blend of 17 ingredients is 900 milligrams. And guess what? This is an order of descending mass by law, so that means that the first ingredient, number one, could be
• 0:25
  In terms of psychedelics, I want you to tell us, but what do you see as the good? What do you see as the bad? What are some of the cautions that you see in the space and what are some of the huge benefits? Well, scientifically, with psychedelics, you have...
• 0:40
  So the supplement industry is worth about $200 billion globally. Most of its noise, proprietary blends, and overdose actives label claims that have nothing to do with what's actually in the bottle, ingredients chosen for cost rather than efficacy. But my guest today is the person most of the people making those products call when they actually want to know what really works.
• 1:03
  Sean Wells is known as an ingredientologist, the world's greatest formulator. That's kind of a big deal. He's formulated over 1,100 supplements, foods, beverages, and cosmeceuticals. He has patented over 40 novel ingredients, including tea cream. Is that my saying right? Dynamine.
• 1:22
  Also correct, a parazanthine, compounds found in over 300 products worldwide. He was the chief science officer at Biotrust Nutrition. He sits on the editorial board of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition and is a registered dietitian and a fellow of the ISSN.
• 1:41
  He's also someone who's personally battled Epstein-Barr virus, cryo fatigue syndrome, phygromyalgia, a pituitary tumor, depression, obesity, and more, and who found his way back through the same science that he now teaches. His book, The Energy Formula, was recognized by Forbes and USA Today as a must-read. His tagline, Formulating the Future of Nutrition with Transparency and Vulnerability.
• 2:06
  This is the supplement conversation most people never get access to. So let's go. Dang. I know, right? That's it, bro. Seriously, I laugh when they say every time I do one of these, I'm like, I could give you a nice introduction, but I could never do that. I'm like, this guy sounds amazing. I'm like, did you see Evie? Yeah.
• 2:25
  Exactly. You want us to watch this? It's true though. And, and Sean, like your reputation precedes you. Like everybody knows that you're the go-to guy in the supplement space. And, you know, in my business, we do a lot with supplement companies and I would say it's tough. Cause I always go through the, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't work with somebody whose product I wouldn't personally take. And yet there's so much junk.
• 2:48
  And to our audience, our podcast is called Age Defiantly. And I think as part of that, we deal with somewhat of an aging demographic. But it's people who are not wanting to tip that edge, right? People who are wanting to enjoy, as Laurent said last night, people who are looking to make that second 50 better than the first. Yeah.
• 3:08
  Um, and in that category supplements become a big part of that. Yeah. I mean, they, they really are because it's, what do I take? What do I take? What do I take? Um, a lot of people know me as the guy who's like, well, how about if we talk about subtraction? Like, let's not talk about everything you should take. Let's talk about things that we need to remove from your life before we'll start talking about what we add. It's so true. I mean, I hate those for me, the contrarian, but that's usually who I play. Um,
• 3:32
  But in terms of supplementation, like, let's just start with a quick, what are the things that average people should be looking for when they're doing this? Like, it's a wild west. So the thing that you read in my tagline, transparency and vulnerability. Yeah.
• 3:50
  That's what I want from the supplement companies I'm working with. Yeah. Transparency. It's very easy to snow job the consumer by having proprietary blends. Proprietary blend for those that are listening and don't know what it is. You can have 17 ingredients. All this it. Ginseng, creatine, L-carnitine. You're like, oh, I know all these ingredients. Oh, cool. That's all in there.
• 4:18
  And then it lists one number. That entire blend of 17 ingredients is 900 milligrams. And guess what? This is an order of descending mass by law. So that means that the first ingredient, number one, could be 899 milligrams. And this other 16 milligrams are essentially not in there. They're quote unquote fairy dusted.
• 4:47
  So that's pretty deceptive in my mind. And at one milligram for 16 ingredients, you can guess that those are not at efficacious doses. Well, let me ask you, because supplement companies, of course, I'll play counterpoint with you because supplement companies. And protect me. Correct. I mean, it's the proprietary blend and they do it. And the argument back because I've had those conversations, the argument back from a supplement company is always, but this is our IP. Right.
• 5:15
  $50,000 to $100,000, you can do a study and you can prove that out. Eric? And that's how I shut that down. Because it's a lie. It's a flat-out lie. It's meant to be... I mean, you think it's cheaper to do that proprietary lend? It's probably like a third or a quarter of the price of full dosing all those ingredients you're listing. And you don't have to test against those ingredients you're listing that way because there's no dose. Correct. Correct.
• 5:42
  So this is a giant scam. And if someone wants to convince me that it's truly a meaningful proprietary blend that they're trying to protect, then you can take that blend and do a study on it. Like I said, for $50,000, you could probably do an acute study. $100,000, you could do a little bit more robust study. $150,000, you could have a multi-week, multi-arm study.
• 6:10
  And for companies that are making millions and millions and millions of dollars and they're trying to protect their IP, they could do that. So you said something. Yeah, I agree with you. Like if your proprietary blend is that important to you, then protect it with data. Don't protect it with with smoke and mirrors. Yeah, I agree with you on that. Let me ask you, you just said something there that I find kind of interesting because you said for companies that are making millions and millions of dollars. Mm hmm.
• 6:35
  Um, my experience has been with most supplement companies. They're barely making money at all. If at all that there are those out there that are making millions and millions of dollars, but billiards seem they're making bill. Well, we're here at the changing life destiny conference. And I would arguably say that there's not a single vendor in the room.
• 6:55
  In this area that's making billions of dollars in supplements. I mean, it's not that crowd, right? It's not the crowd. There's a few big companies there that are just the staples of every health event.
• 7:08
  But by and large, I find that most supplement companies are scrambling forward because it's such a crowded space. And in addition to that crowding, it's kind of slimy in some ways, right? Like you just, there's a lot of companies out there that you shouldn't even be out there. My angle was always like, how does the consumer even know what's going on there though?
• 7:28
  That's a great question. So, and I have formulated for hundreds of companies. My companies own Halo. I have a team of about 10 people. We do quality assurance, quality control, third-party medical review, regulatory supply chain, which includes like sourcing and third-party logistics and everything.
• 7:50
  fulfillment, packaging innovation, flavor work. We basically do, when we do intellectual property and studies, we do everything but the marketing and the sales. And I will say that it is frustrating that...
• 8:06
  there are companies that have incredible formulas with lots of innovation. But the other piece is really important too, is what you're saying is like how you market it, how you sell it, how you create eyeballs on that formula. And then there's companies like, I'll just say AG1 that are just trash and,
• 8:25
  and have millions and millions and millions of eyeballs and subscribers because they're good at the game when they have the Joe Rogan's, they have like all these different podcasters. They have millions of dollars of private equity money behind them that have bought into them and are advertising them. They have Super Bowl commercials. I mean, it's a different marketing machine. It's a marketing machine.
• 8:53
  So this is what you're battling. And I would say in that marketing machine, I think what a lot of people also fail, and it's not that they're failing, how did the consumer know this stuff? I watch it. So I see some of these nutraceutical supplement tech companies, they get their traction. They sell the private equity. They sell the venture capital. They sell the, the formulas look the same. It's not the same once they're focused on profit as opposed to efficacy.
• 9:20
  So a lot of people are taking a supplement and early in the company's life, it may have been a quality product and it deteriorates over time because that transparency fades. A hundred percent. Volume becomes the game. A hundred percent. Yes. When private equity comes in, it's how do we make this profitable? How do we cut this down as much as possible? Make it look the same.
• 9:45
  and deceive the consumer, but let's boost our revenue and our profits so that we can be attractive to the strategic that will buy us on the flip. Yeah, so people don't know, like, usually, almost everyone, it seems like these days when I'm working with a supplement company, especially like at the startup, they're like, I just want to build it to sell it.
• 10:06
  And in the next three to five years, I want to sell it. So at the beginning, you have friends and friends and family raised and you have kind of a quick investor. Yeah. Quick series. Then you might have venture capital money come in. Then the next stage is like a private equity.
• 10:25
  And then you might have like a team that you install on your C-suite. If you get to a private equity, that's going to just bang this thing out in the next three years and sell it to a strategic. A strategic would be like a general mills, Clorox, Dr. Pepper, Keurig, you know, something like that. And then that team that your C-suite is incentivized where with equity. And then, you know, they get, they get something on that flip. Yeah.
• 10:52
  And for brains, like an agey one and stuff like that, like that's huge. The incentive is usually where they're, you know, the C-suite is making 3 million, 5 million. The CEO might be making 10, 20 million. A founder could be making hundreds of millions. I feel the same with companies. Like you see like the big marketing. Anytime there's a big marketing machine, I'm always skeptical. And I know that sounds terrible, especially coming from a marketing guy. But I'm like, you take a look at stuff like the balance of nature, right? Yeah.
• 11:20
  they're marketing giant. Like you can't turn on a news station without seeing a balance of nature commercial. And it's, there's nothing to it. And then the foot that the formula is there's nothing to it. And yet people are spending $80, $160 a month, a subscription. And it's like their, their entire marketing message, which I would give credit to. It's brilliant. Never eat your fruits and vegetables again. That's pretty good. That made, are you familiar with their brand?
• 11:47
  Not really. I mean, Belkita is very disruptive. Well, because it's all your daily dose of vegetables in this supplement, all your daily dose of fruits in this one. And then they came out with a third SKU, which is just all fiber. And I mean, it literally, I hate to say it because they've done a brilliant job marketing. So my hat's off in that respect. But from a consumer standpoint, consumers are buying large lasing.
• 12:09
  And I never have to worry about fruits, vegetables, or grains. Again, in my diet, I can eat what I want and still get everything I need. All I have to do is take these two things a day and I'm like, okay, marketing, hats off, well done.
• 12:24
  In terms of efficacy or in terms of nutritional value, like, it scares me that that's how people would prefer to intake. And I'm all about supplementation. But good God, like, that's not OK, right? No, that's a terrible message as a dietitian. Like, that is.
• 12:40
  Look them up. Grinch where they, it's just, yeah, that's terrible. Well, and then their marketing machine is kind of crazy because you can't even buy them on their website. You have to get a membership to their website and then you buy this with their membership. It's so Costco. It cracks me up. Well, there's a, there's a liability layer there too. It protects them. A hundred percent. Just like MLNs. Yeah. Only sell to members. Absolutely. And so it's like the model works, but my God, they've made fortunes.
• 13:08
  doing this and I'm like oh man because then there's other companies that I see like like people that are vendors here like you've got a great I was just talking with Dylan about it yesterday it's like you you've got such a great product and you don't have the contacts or the capital to ever get this to the general population
• 13:24
  And you watch these little companies that really do have something good, that really have the heart behind what they do. And I say that I played Mad Libs when I, when I companies, the Mad Lib story, you know, I once had a, this, and then no one was able to help me. And I discovered this. And now I want to bring this to the world because everybody's like, and it's like a zero's journey.
• 13:47
  It's the hero journey on every single company, particularly in the healthcare space. And it's, it's very passionate and it is very heartfelt on their, on their side because everybody here, I had a problem. I solved my problem. And now, you know, I have a degree in marketing and by the way, Donald Miller is a master. My favorite, I'm certified in his courses. And I've actually studied with Rory Baden, who is like his protege in Nashville as well. Donald is in Nashville, but.
• 14:16
  frame on listening, building your story brand. It's on the 2.0. We can
• 14:23
  Read the book, go get certified. It will be a game changer in how you market your product and how you tell your own story. Almost everyone, just like me, you read my intro. We're all like wounded healers. We all have our hero's journey. That is exactly what you're saying. And even though it's been said a thousand times, a million times, I don't know how many times.
• 14:47
  it's still valuable it's still your story and it's still your why and that's with people which is another great book start with your why simon cynic but um it's good to have your why built into this hero's journey so those are powerful things to build into your branding if you're listening you have a supplement company want to start a supplement company
• 15:08
  Good place to start. My only caution on the story brand, and Donald Miller is literally my favorite author. I was a fan of Donald Miller before he went into marketing. Awesome. I don't know if you know. Yeah, yeah. He was actually writer like Blue Light Jazz and stuff. Big fan of Don Miller where he was still figuring himself out.
• 15:24
  Um, very similar journeys. You've ever read the book scary close now. Okay. I want you to, um, just because of a conversation we had prior to prior with the recording, it's a Donald Miller book and it's the last book he wrote prior to going into story brand. Okay. You'll thank me later. It's one of those books I suspect that will mean something to you because when I read the book story, but not story, burn, um, scary close, um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
• 15:51
  I literally had to put the book down several times, which I don't say about books because I'm not, I don't get emotional about stuff like that. It's like, it almost felt like he had taken all of my thoughts and put them in print and exposed me to the wound.
• 16:06
  I mean, it was that vulnerable, as you said. I was like, oh my gosh. But yes, Donald Miller, big fan. As a matter of fact, when I published my first book and literally sent the first copy of it to his office, never heard back. Don, if you ever listen to this, you'll know you're disappointed to me.
• 16:24
  Yeah, but talking hero's journey, I absolutely want to stop at one point before we get into your hero's journey, and that is the one caution from a marketing perspective, and I love Don Miller's story brands and the start with why, sign and send it, great book. Yeah.
• 16:43
  The one thing that I caution brands, supplements especially, to have is they spend too much time talking about themselves. And that is a new time talking. Well, that's it. That's the story brand. Like that is kind of the next part of the story brand is to be the guide, not the hero. Be the guide, not the hero. So so that's the whole thing. Like you do have your hero's journey.
• 17:05
  but you're supposed to be the easy button for everyone else correct and so this is you are the obi-wan kenobi again they are the luke skywalker yes you're and of course if you follow out all these stories like what luke skywalker becomes that for ray or mr miyagi and daniel son and then daniel son becomes the you know and
• 17:27
  So this is the story arc is you're supposed to be the guide and it's supposed to be their journey, their story, and you're helping facilitate that. Absolutely. Yeah. Your story is to build camaraderie with the user, not to...
• 17:43
  trumpet your own story so much. And that's, I see a lot of that. And, you know, first question I ask when my team builds a website or Atlantic, it's like, okay, so Tommy Kudis is about. And normally it gets a rewrite without me having to say anything else, because we so focused on a product. We so focused on a brand story that.
• 18:01
  they start to go sideways it's important one of the things i did of rory his protege was like you build out your avatar and then you speak to that person yeah you know if it's like karen maybe there's a better name but uh but she's just great and you know that like she's 31 years old she owns a jeep cherokee about that you know you build the whole thing yeah
• 18:24
  Like she goes to yoga like three times a week and you had this whole thing built out. And then you're like, what does Karen think about this copy? Yeah, we've actually gotten and this is something that we've been doing with my company is building out AI interns and then building out that whole story. We walk clients through that that exact same thing. Yeah. And then literally taking that person, that Navitar character.
• 18:46
  creating a personality around her and then running all things by her before anything goes to market. Like, yeah, she's incredible. And we've got, we've got one brain we work with and it's Pam and Pam's 50 years old. Pam's blonde. And her husband's name was Bob and Bob does this. And they've got one daughter who just had a baby and a kid who's still in high school. And like, and it's all this stuff is like, well, where's Pam thing?
• 19:07
  Like that becomes the conversation when you're even talking with clients. Well, we've got to talk about Pam, right? Like the goal in that is obviously be the Gandalf, not Frodo. Yeah. And I was a Lord of the Rings nerd and the stories about Frodo. I mean, Gandalf only shows up when Frodo is in trouble and then Gandalf goes and minds his business somewhere else. And whatever's going on in Gandalf's life is irrelevant.
• 19:27
  He's just there to help Frodo on the journey. But speaking of those journeys, I want to talk to Sean's journey because you've said the same thing. You've got your same pain to purpose journey, like your own like getting threatened, your own health issues that drove you into helping solve others, other people's problems at this point. Can you tell us that story?
• 19:49
  Yeah. And you know, what's interesting is like, it's been harder and harder. It, it, it became a point of vulnerability for me to tell the story. And then now I'm at a point where I've done so much deep work in psychedelics and the personal reflection and meditation and therapy. That is like, sometimes I'm like, do I need to keep going back there?
• 20:14
  Yeah, but like... A little bit... I work for my... No, and I'm not saying like I don't want to. It's one of those things where it's like I'm learning how to like... I'm not gaslighting myself. I'm like NLP-ing my own story to now say like...
• 20:30
  It is the hero's journey, and it's not just darkness to light. It was what was always meant to be. There would be no shong without it, and it's just part of my story, and I'm actually deeply thankful for all of it. Well, and I'm going to stop right there and say I think that's true of anybody who's matured past that pain. That is the idea that in that pain, you don't embrace the pain, but you do have gratitude for it.
• 20:58
  Yeah, and I just, you know, it's to some degree, like, I think when you're younger, like, there's a temptation to, like, sensationalize it, like, so that you can sound more dramatic. Or, you know, maybe the contrast in your hero's journey sounds like, wow, or I'm comparing myself to someone else. I never want to do that.
• 21:19
  Well, it's not eliciting sympathy. It's none of that. And it's not. And I think the part, I think we've all had pain and we've all had trauma. We've all had dysfunctional upbringings and so on and so forth. I think to me, we're, we're that. And I appreciate your position on, I don't need to go back there because I don't disagree with you on that because I don't revisit that past either. Like that's, that's not who I am. That's, that's a distant, distant memory. Yeah.
• 21:45
  But going back to that, I think there's something to be said. There are too many people who use that as a marketing plan. In fact, recently, and this is, I mean, I'm not going to obviously call anybody out, but recently something was brought to my attention about someone that we all know. And then it became a question of, you know, that person uses this background story as a platform platform.
• 22:06
  And then it literally something I'd never even called into question. And then a mutual contact made a comment and said, you know, that story is not even true. Right. And, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is one of those cases of never meet your heroes. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Like that this entire platform is built on this. And then another situation came up and it was the exact same thing. I'm like, how in the world is this normal?
• 22:33
  And to that point, I imagine I coordinated this and that. So, my gosh. I can't imagine being the person if that's literally how you're living. But at the same time, I'm concerned about an entire industry that in some cases, there's always going to be bad actors. It is what it is. But the reality is, is like some of that stuff in those.
• 22:54
  in those stories become the marketing engine is my point. Yeah. And there needs to be a balance between is your story, the entire brand or is it just an origin story? And the brain still stands on its own. Right. Nick,
• 23:09
  well there's a lot of sociopathic behaviors and narcissism in this industry for sure too um anyway with my story i do have a history of just a difficult childhood and um of bullying with abuse of um
• 23:31
  suicidal thoughts uh pretty spared depression and then that led into me being morbidly obese and disordered eating and body dysmorphia and and then a slew of autoimmune conditions and
• 23:46
  A number of surgeries, me being in bed for six months, couldn't get out of bed because of severe Epstein-Barr and chronic fatigue syndrome. I was literally crawling to the bathroom. I think some people think a lot of that stuff is made up. And I can tell you the amount of pain, the lack of energy I was feeling was like...
• 24:12
  I would literally have to lay down in the mall on like a bench for a couple of hours to just get strength to get up to go to my car. And it absolutely led to my passion in this industry. And I sought out supplements. I grew up. My mom was like one of the first people that was using supplements, taking all the supplements, had the taco box, you know. And she sold Shackley, which was from Europe.
• 24:38
  and this is like 1980 she was like something shackly so she was way ahead of the curve she like hopped the vitamin E capsule put it on my wounds like there was this Violi that was like a whole food multivitamin we had like the little you know protein bars that I mean I look back and go this company was way ahead of everyone else they had the vitamin C like right when Linus Pauling was starting to talk about like this orthomolecular dosing with vitamin C and it's not just for scurvy but like it could help with
• 25:07
  flu and sickness and all this kind of stuff. It changed the way they look at vitamins. We were looking at vitamins as preventing deficiencies like rickets and scurvy. Now we're looking at vitamins and optimization. And so Linus really changed a lot of that. But that had me believing in the power of supplements and
• 25:31
  I started doing my deep dive on how do I get out of this? And then I was pursuing my nutrition degree, a master's at UNC. And I was doing paleo, keto, intermittent fasting, and that helped me climb out of that pole as well. And those things radically changed my life. And then I started becoming an expert for other people around me and
• 26:01
  and my passion just grew from there, and then so glad that I'm on the other side of this, and like Hill told you that psychedelics really changed a lot for me, that was a massive pivot for me, like when I went deep into these substances, I shed a lot of trauma, I shifted on
• 26:27
  The biggest one was that I truly believed in my heart of hearts that I could not be loved, and I wasn't worthy of love. And in that first journey I did on psilocybin, that was my epiphany is, I can have love, I can be loved. And that alone took me out of severe depression and suicidal thoughts and kind of fatalism and...
• 26:57
  my whole world opened up from there. Like I had purpose again. I, I felt like I was going to go find love now that I am worthy of love. And it sounds so simple.
• 27:08
  to say that and we can all like rationalize and cerebralize. That's a word like that, that idea. But until you like feel it and anchor those things in your heart and you know it to be true, it's, it's very different. Those are like two different things. That's a hundred percent. We always, I always refer to that, especially in like clinical, let's the head knowledge versus heart knowledge, right? Like you can know something without feeling it. Yeah. And there's a disconnect there. So, yeah,
• 27:37
  I got a question because you mentioned psychedelics like a full of touches and we mentioned we talked about it a little bit beforehand. I'm in no way an expert on psychedelics whatsoever. But her administration has now loosened the restraints and the restrictions on psychedelics and is now using them more for exploratory things, particularly psychedelics.
• 27:56
  Literally right now at this conference, as you and I are having this conversation, there's a stage right now talking about things like ibogaine and ketamine and other types of things that they are now experimenting with to deal with addiction recovery. Yeah.
• 28:15
  What are your thoughts? I mean, I know you've got a lot of thoughts on the topic and I know you're very pro psychedelic in that respect, but I know you're also a person who has a, you got to temper some of this as well. Give us an opinion that there's, like I said, it's a whole new world for a lot of people and there's very polarized views.
• 28:34
  Yeah. And I think it's fine if you feel like that's not for you, that's fine. But to take it out of someone's hands that is suicidal, homicidal, that has served our country in sacrifice, watch Waves and War on Netflix.
• 28:51
  It's an amazing documentary where these special operators are dealing with really dark trauma and putting their families through hell, putting themselves through hell, had gone through pretty intense firefights and warfighter situations. That they go through an experience in Mexico where they use ibogaine and psilocybin, I believe.
• 29:22
  they realize that it's not even the trauma of being a warfighter. And we're all going back to their childhood, right? And they're all just, a lot of these warfighters, these special operators are, you know, wearing their vests and their machine guns and huge muscles and the toughness and their hurt children. Well, it had really dark, difficult childhoods.
• 29:50
  And for so many of them, that's allowed them to dissociate souls that they were able to be substances. A hundred percent, Harry. A hundred percent. And that's what, like, you can't take that out. Like, I just watched the Michael Jackson documentary, and his father was extremely abusive on him.
• 30:12
  And there would be no Michael Jackson, the perfectionist, the artist, the one that learned to be a singer, that learned to be this incredible dancer, to learn to be a standout without that abusive background. Right. I mean, it's just a fact. Which does not tell people. No, they can get this one that they become for dancers.
• 30:34
  No, it doesn't make it right. But like what you do find to your point is a lot of us that are elite at what we do have. I have some it's hormesis. Right.
• 30:47
  You'll sink or swim. You'll grow stronger or you'll fall away. And for those of us that are sitting here at the top of what we do, there's a reason why that's the case. And it's the adversity. It's hormesis. It's the adaptation from the difficult stimuli, if you will.
• 31:08
  Well, and again, I would argue and say anybody at the top of their game understands training. And the conversation I was talking with Sean Gray, he keeps going back to me. Life's a sport. Every day is training. Everything you do is training for the next thing that you do. And I think that's true in all those cases. And again, certainly none of it is justified or solicited. But there gets to be a, I always use the divine table turner, right? What was intended for evil can then turn into something good.
• 31:38
  if we're able to put that perspective to it. So the Michael Jackson who went through the abuse, yes, he became a perfectionist and an elite at his craft. And even people in military situations, that they become incredible men of war. But we also have to holistically look at that person and all of their experiences, not just the perception that we see today, but everything that's happened to them in the past.
• 32:02
  There's so much brokenness. And I'd arguably say that everybody experiences it at some level. Yeah. What I found for me and a lot of people around me, I'm in a lot of different masterminds and around, you know, elite people when it comes to wealth or owning companies that, you know, friends are seven, eight, nine, even 10 figure people.
• 32:25
  And what I see is that they all have this trauma background and it drives them and they're incredibly successful because of this insatiable drive to prove themselves. And there's this need that is so intense that and it cannot be filled with anything.
• 32:47
  And when they get somewhere down the road, now it's time to do the work and say, this is no longer sustainable. This is no longer serving me. It's built my identity. It's given me my platform. It's given me my elite drive. It's given me my success. And now, thank you. And it's time to devolve. Why here?
• 33:11
  I no longer need to destroy myself. Right. How do I sustain for the rest of my time on earth?
• 33:20
  Well, and it gets to be that trying to fill a void type of thing. And I think that's why you see a lot of people who, you know, you see there be suicides and the dysfunction of people who have achieved what most people would dream of. And it's like, but there's a void because everything that they've done has been trying to fix a past trauma that can't be. You can't fix that. You can't fill that. Like that requires something deeper than just getting to the next dollar or getting to the next, you know, X number of followers type type mindset.
• 33:51
  In terms of psychedelics, I want you to tell us, but what do you see as the good? What do you see as the bad? Obviously, releasing restrictions on people in military and whatnot. I'm with you. What are some of the cautions that you see in the space? And what are some of the huge benefits that you see of this opening up with the floodgates here? Well, scientifically with psychedelics, you have some mechanisms of action that are shared that are really important. You have a
• 34:20
  turning off, if you will, a default mode network, which is like your constructs that you built. And it's like it's called ego dissolution. You've built this identity around what we call like ego and and it all can serve you in some way. In some ways it's working against you.
• 34:41
  depending on how you constructed your ego. And we're all constantly lying to ourselves and kind of like filtering and telling ourselves a story that's not exactly true. And it can serve us a lot of the time. But in psychedelics, default mode network is turned down slash off. And that allows for you to view things through like a truth lens where your identity is dissolved and,
• 35:11
  And you're no longer Mark Young. You're no longer I'm a marketing guy. You're no longer I'm an author. I'm the podcaster. It's like, no, you're getting down to it. Like, who am I? Like, this person that's purred, why am I hurting? You know, so that's a dissolve. And it allows you to be...
• 35:34
  more nimble in how you might change your path. Because when default mode network is turned all the way up and ego is turned all the way up, it's very difficult to make changes. So the next thing that goes along with that is neuroplasticity. So you had BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, as well as NGF and M4 and all these neuroplasticity proteins. And
• 35:56
  crank all the way up so now you're able to rewrite the code in your brain you also have neurotransmitters across the board turned all the way up things like acetylcholine dopamine endorphins serotonin all the way up so this allows you to feel more a lot of times with progression
• 36:20
  those things are turned all the way down because your body wants you to feel less because feeling is pain and neuroplasticity, by the way, is turned all the way down, typically depression because you're, you're like not resilient and you're staying in the loops, but you know, you're, you're not able to shake something off or, you know, whatever, like it's, you'll, you'll stay in these loops. You'll, you're neuroplasticity.
• 36:48
  neurologically fragile, if you will. Well, in that same topic, we talked about neurotransmitters and everything being turned on, mirroring those moments, psychedelic, what do I want to say? A counter reality, if you will. We're living in our bodies in this...
• 37:08
  the neurotransmitters and literally the physiology of our bodies doesn't know the difference between what we're experiencing right now versus what we're experiencing in a psychedelic state. Right. So we're able to turn up the brain activity while the physiology doesn't know the difference. So, you know, that, that whole, you know, neurons that, that fire together, wire together type mentality that when everything is turned up, right.
• 37:32
  And all of these things start connecting. The things that are happening in this alternate reality, I'll call it, are having physiological outputs once everything is downregulated out of the psychedelic state. Like your body genuinely feels that that was all very real.
• 37:48
  Yeah, and quite typically with trauma, and trauma gets stored in the body as injuries, as disease, and there's even generational trauma that is stored in your DNA that leads to your aversions to things that is literally playing out as trauma to you, and you may not even be consciously aware of it. There's 14 generations at least stored in your DNA of information
• 38:14
  And so having, as you're saying, the neurotransmitters turned up and you're feeling, you're now able to feel that trauma, see it, acknowledge it, work through it, and release it and rewrite it and even say...
• 38:30
  Thank you, God, for that. Thank you, universe. Thank you, source. Whatever it is, I acknowledge that. That shaped me, and I no longer need to hold back. Right. Thank you. And again, your body doesn't know that that was all just at a psychedelic state. So your body experiences that release.
• 38:50
  I mean, I hate to make it sound weird, but it's like, it's almost like that out of body experience, if you will, is actually having physiological impact. So a hundred per day, that that's the crazy part that is you're able to like step outside of yourself, have this experience and come back in your body recognizes it as being every bit as valid as if it happened without the psychopic or without the psychedelic, like all of that is very real.
• 39:20
  Talk to me, though, about the biggest concern I see with people with psychedelics is obviously addiction. You're a smart man, so I have no concerns about this, but there's a lot of people I know that I wouldn't recommend a psychedelics to.
• 39:36
  And part of the reason is not just addiction facing, but it is the idea that you're able to have a psychedelic experience and come back to reality, if I can say that. Versus a lot of people I know, and I know people who've used a lot of it, prefer to stay keeper. And then the psychedelic becomes the preferred reality, as opposed to using it as a means to an end.
• 39:58
  It's possible, yeah. There are those cases for sure. And I think with something like Ibogaine or ayahuasca, that really wouldn't present itself that way. Like, they're difficult and they're acute. And, you know, you go through potentially, you know, diarrhea, vomiting, you know, like you're purging, literally. And part of that purging is actually important. Yeah.
• 40:27
  Because you're storing trauma in your body. So the purge can be a release of trauma. So you evacuating your bowels or your GI tract or whatever can be very powerful and cathartic.
• 40:44
  I would say that there's some abone that certainly have like recreational use, you know, you see NDMA, ketamine, psilocybin, THC, certainly like being used recreationally and could be misused, abused.
• 41:01
  The concern there is actually that if you're around something that is traumatic in those situations, as I mentioned, default mode network is down. You're very vulnerable. Your neuroplasticity and neurotransmitters are turned up. You're feeling everything. You're rewriting your code. You're...
• 41:24
  That sounds very cool. If you're in a safe environment and maybe it's beautiful lights and music, that can be great. And if you're at a festival, if you're at a party, things can not go right sometimes. And you can iron in Tron in a very powerful way. That's a huge caution to keep it. Yeah. This is why I think it's really important to...
• 41:53
  To have a facilitator, typically in these environments, to feel extremely safe in your environment, to know your environment that you're heading into, to dose appropriately, to really think through, you know, this experience before you use these substances. You've reminded me, metaphorically, it's almost like you're performing surgery on your mind at some point. Like, yeah, you're opening yourself up and whatever happens while you're open.
• 42:20
  get stitched back up inside, right? Like we would never go have surgery in an unclean, unsafe environment. We would only do that in a very safe space for risk of infection. But people are literally opening themselves up psychologically and spiritually, I would argue.
• 42:38
  in a place that it's not safe, that you're allowing that type of infection to come in as opposed to in a safe with proper dosage with, you know, with these things like in most cases, I told you I did an Ivy ketamine one time. It's like the, the doctor who was there never left the room. Mm-hmm.
• 42:54
  Like she sat in the room the entire time. That's good. Because I'm under, you never know what happened. Maybe I was going to have a trip. You can actually say that. Like, trust me, I've been in these environments and you may be under, you may be exploring different worlds, but you can sense when there's a safe place.
• 43:12
  energy there or not? Well, I had a very funny experience with that because I told you while I was under on the ketamine, like for the first little while, it was an absolute trip and it happened so fast and I had no crier experience with that. So I was kind of exploring once I realized that I was in control.
• 43:28
  it kind of became somewhat gamified because everything in my world has to become some kind of gamification. And I knew she was in the room and I remember going and, and giving her like an okay sign in the middle. And I was like, I wonder if she saw that. That's kind of funny. And I'm like, I'm going to give it to, I was like, okay.
• 43:49
  And I was completely under, had no feeling of my own body, but I knew that I was giving her these okay signs. And then I started cracking up laughing. That's awesome. And it made funny enough. Well, when I came out, everything else, and she looks at me later on, she goes, how was it? Blah, blah, blah. Do it all post experience recap. And she's like, can I ask you a question? What's that? You've...
• 44:10
  at one point you just started cracking up laughing like do you remember what was taking place and I think she's expecting this to be this real breakthrough moment that I had while I was under this experience and I was like I do I was giving you an okay and I know she was looking at me that was your ketamine experience yeah
• 44:30
  Well, you know what? There's a lot of these experiences like where you want like the big breakthrough moment where you want like this instant download and learning. You'll talk to people or certainly smart facilitators that'll say like, you may not get that download for years. These are these are very powerful moments.
• 44:50
  And you may have gotten the download, but in unconscious mind or subconscious mind, realize I've been conscious mind. Well, she did no gyne. She literally put me in the IV, put an anti-nausea in the IV because she's like, do you want to feel this? And because I'm a big guy, she gave me a double dose of what she was doing because she's like, it's going to take extra to knock you out.
• 45:12
  Um, safely, of course. And I, I had zero expectation going in. So I think for me, it was like first time it was very exploratory. Perhaps there's something that I haven't experienced yet. Um, I didn't walk away from it from any particular breakthrough. Um, not to say that I wouldn't do it again. Um, but I didn't walk away with anything phenomenal, but I think if I were to do it again, um,
• 45:36
  I probably would have more of an intention behind it than a skepticism. That's very powerful. Correct. I will tell you that that's when you feel safe, when you have the right facilitator, the right music, the right environment, the right mindset, intention. It allows you to go deeper into that space. If you can imagine that,
• 45:59
  being an astronaut on a tether or a deep sea diver on a tether you can kind of go out into the et black like further out and i know for me uh the more and this is really has to do with parasympathetic nervous system um of the autonomic nervous system like they're sympathetic parasympathetic sympathetic is fight pleasure crease
• 46:22
  And then a parasympathetic is rest and digest. It's just, you're, you're relaxed. The more you are relaxed, the safer you feel, the more you can go explore. Right. And that has definitely been the case for me. Like as I've, and this is what you'll hear, like psychonauts, I have, you know, people that are highly experienced in this space. And I would say I've, I've done a few hundred journeys and I'm probably in that realm. Um,
• 46:52
  that it's not really about the dose anymore. It's how do I get my nervous system in a place that is very relaxed and sometimes relaxed in very uncomfortable spaces. Like sometimes these psychedelics at points can be nauseating, can be like I can see dark images, I can...
• 47:10
  my heart might be racing. Like this is like part of the journey is how do I feel safe in these spaces? Can I rely on myself? You know, usually early on, it's very much about the facilitator, but then how do I help myself through these difficult situations? Oh yeah. I get into my breath. I ground like,
• 47:32
  I can turn the channel, as I was telling you about in our prior session, that I had the ability to change what the TV player in my mind is playing.
• 47:45
  And so as you get better at working with yourself, grounding yourself, working yourself through difficult situations, that becomes powerful that you take certainly well out of the psychedelic environments into your life. But it allows you to go much deeper and really explore trauma, and it doesn't just have to be happy and light, and you can even look forward to...
• 48:12
  Finding some of these dark spaces that have maybe have been imprisoned in your body or brain and kind of shut away and put away. And you don't even have the memories anymore. Well, and maybe dig into those. And for a lot of people, it allows them that dissociative release.
• 48:31
  That it's too painful in the conscious minds to be able to deal with this and that the only way that they can deal with that trauma is to dissociate. And this allows them to actually step outside of themselves and almost objectively deal with it.
• 48:47
  And then come back with that having already been dealt with in a subconscious level. And I think that that's the benefit that I see from this. It's a powerful point. And actually, ketamine that you mentioned is one of the most powerful for dissociation. And that is one of the other mechanisms I did mention for psychedelics is that dissociation, it allows you to, as you said, like that's part of those constructs that are built in your identity. Yeah.
• 49:14
  Even your trauma becomes your identity. Yeah. And so when you can step outside of yourself, view yourself from a third person perspective, feel what it feels like to be you, but not have that trauma. And you're like, oh, I'm safe.
• 49:30
  I'm okay without that trauma. It doesn't need to be built into my DNA, my identity, my Mark Young, traumatized, blah, blah, blah. I can see myself apart from this, and now I don't need that. In my experience, the one thing that I will say was very beneficial for me, and although I said very experimental,
• 49:54
  Was it, I saw very dissociatively from a distance, my life and every problem that I, that I deal with and every stress that I have and everything that keeps me awake at night. Not a same. So insecure. Yep. Yeah.
• 50:10
  And that's what I love about category. Yeah. And I mean, literally it was like, I was up in the universe staring down at the world at one point and I was like, oh, look, Florida. And I was like, oh, wow. What's Fort Lauderdale? And it's like, the more I start zeroing in, I'm like, well, you are literally no big deal. Yeah. And everything that you're dealing with, literally no big deal. So, and it's, again, I will say for a period of time following the.
• 50:35
  that perspective was able to stay ingrained in my parasympathetic nervous system. Like I was downregulated quite a bit after after that experience, which was her. There was no guiding. There was no talking throughout. Like she literally sat quiet and just let me have an experience as opposed to someone who's going to a, you know, addiction recovery using ketamine. Like they're being guided and blocked to throughout the experience. Mine wasn't like that. Perhaps I would.
• 51:05
  But yeah, I think in the vein of administration changing the rules on psychedelics, I think there's a lot of great things that can happen from particularly in addiction recovery and trauma recovery. I think there's a lot of cautions that people need to need to pay attention to as well, because every good thing can be abused and the naysayers will always grab on to that. Well, the most frustrating thing for me, Mark, is.
• 51:32
  I'm an expert on psychedelics and peptides, and I can't talk about either. Forever. On Meta. On all of this stuff. I literally censored. So I, you know, I'm certainly an expert on supplements, and I talk about supplements all the time.
• 51:47
  But anytime I mentioned peptides or psychedelics, my white boys did. Yeah. And so if the legality around these substances changes and our access changes, then at least these platforms will be forced to change with it. And we can at least have an open discussion around it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important. And there's so many stupid things. Like we deal with it all the time with it.
• 52:11
  you know meta deciding that to be literally this morning i was having this whole fight with with online ai meta the whole deal over curcumin like like why is curcumin just all of a sudden a banned word you can't sell curcumin turmeric like anything related is just you're dead you can't do anything with it and i'm like
• 52:34
  it's the dumbest thing to me because literally those restrictions cause more confusion because we can't solve the confusion. If we can't talk about it, I can go down the red bill, black bill rabbit hole and someone that type of grads are controlling our future. And this, and they put the guardrails on the AI and they control the AI and what the response is you're getting. And it's, it's very frustrating to me and all of that. Yeah. The censorship, um,
• 53:04
  Very frustrating. Yeah, I agree. I will say that LinkedIn is probably one of the best platforms that I've found to have an open discussion. I know X Twitter is pretty good. Yeah, but I'd definitely say that Meta is the worst. And unfortunately, Meta is my main platform. Yeah, no, I agree with that entirely. Sean, our podcast is called Age Defiantly, and clearly supplementation and everything else that we've talked about is part of that aging defiantly. And one of the things that I think you've mentioned that
• 53:34
  probably speaks to that even more than supplements or any kind of, you know, additive, albeit psychedelics, supplements, peptides, whatnot, is mindset. I mean, because you clearly talked about eliminating trauma, not just from the mind, but from the body, talking about, you know, coming to terms with past experiences, traumas, illnesses, etc.,
• 53:58
  What kind of advice would you give from a lifestyle perspective to an audience that is probably our age or probably around the same age? That is looking at, okay, so the future is probably shorter than the past in some respects, but it can be better than the past. Like the second 50 is, again, Laurent puts it.
• 54:19
  They want to defy the odds. They want to step outside of what it looks like normally to age. What would you what would you tell people? Just give advice to our audience on that.
• 54:30
  John, your second 50s is amazing to me. I feel better than I did at 20-something. I think with the tech... I mean, legitimately. I was obese, sick, in a dark place mentally, and now I'm financially in a good place. My career is in a great place. I have the experience. I'm good at relationships now. I was terrible at relationships then. I'm...
• 54:58
  learning how to be a good father now, and those are things I wasn't ready for back then. Physically, I'm much stronger, healthier than I was then. So I definitely believe that the second 50, if you will, can be a brighter version of all of it. I look back at who I was at
• 55:20
  25 and I have no desire to go back to the city. None. I'm very proud of who I am now and how I feel now and how I show up in the world now and platform I have now the impact that I get to make now. It can be an incredible place to be. And so mindset wise, yes. And trauma is a big deal. Whether it's, as they say, big trauma, like the big T trauma or little T trauma.
• 55:47
  Trauma can be, we tend to think of dramatic situations like abuse, sexual assaults, all these kinds of things as trauma. They certainly are. But there's the little t trauma where it's not too much too fast, but too little too slow, where it's neglect. That's a very big thing as well.
• 56:12
  When I used to do private counseling, I actually got a psych background, Bill. So when I used to do private counseling, one of the things that I had to always talk about with people, particularly doing marriage counseling, was we think of trauma as being commission when in fact most people's trauma is trauma by omission. It's the parent who didn't. It's not the parent who did. Yeah. It's the child who grew up feeling neglected. And the reality is, is that...
• 56:39
  that that experience whether real or not because often the experience that people talk about with trauma sometimes it feels like gaslighting because of the parent like that never happened but it doesn't matter if it ever happened or not fact is is that's what the child experienced right whether if ever was logically accurate or or historically accurate um
• 57:03
  experience the trauma is the experience it's not it's not literally the reality of the experience it's the perception of the experience and that's what's harder i think to ferret out for most people let me ask you as i'm 50 man like i said we're we're similar in age and we're both now looking at the second 50 as opposed to first i assume i'm seeing that you said somebody be 52 okay so yeah that's what i thought we were about the same age d
• 57:29
  The reality is, is that I look at it now like I'm happier now than I was then, which sounds crazy. And for most of the same reasons that you just listed. When you get to that age, though. Do you find that? And I know we're running long here, but I don't care.
• 57:47
  Do you find that in that second 50, in that more advanced age than 25, in your 20s, dealing with your trauma is like whatever your 20-year-old is doing, right? In your 30s, perhaps you're still dealing with some of that trauma and so on and so forth. In your 50s, it's not as cool to say that you're dealing with your past trauma because at some point there's a perception that you should have gotten over this by now.
• 58:14
  Do you, do you see that? I mean, I don't believe you agree with that, but do you see that culturally? Definitely culturally. Yes. I don't even know what to say about men, but men, I think are having the biggest shift right now. Like,
• 58:30
  Women can share with each other easily, emotionally, tap into emotions. They're very good at creating their networks, their tribes. Women talk to women. Men drink and watch forth and bro hug. And we have a harder time...
• 58:55
  sharing, going deep, being vulnerable. Those are things that we've been conditioned to avoid. Someone asks you how you're doing, you always say fine. Yeah. You know, you suppress, you suppress, you suppress. And
• 59:11
  this is where I think men are, are having a moment like with masterminds, with men's groups, with fate becoming a big thing again. It feels like there's, there's a moment happening for men to be vulnerable, to share, to have groups, to, it's refreshing, go deeper. And it's allowing like the, the idea in the Bible is like iron sharpens iron, you know, that,
• 59:39
  that men can be there for other men and hold, not just say nice things to, to, to you, but like hold your accountable. Right. And I think we're seeing that now where men aren't just,
• 59:54
  And the media has portrayed us as it's disgusting. And there's a clear agenda. I could go into this for many hours about like the Homer Simpsons and the Al Bundy. Kevin James. Yeah. Yeah. It's just we're stupid. We're oafish. We're playing video games. We're drinking. We're dumb. We're...
• 1:00:12
  And it's like the woman comes in with the bag of groceries and she's, we're kind, it's like, we're just idiots. And they have destroyed the nuclear family. They have disenfranchised men and disempowered men to be leaders of the home, to be leaders, true leaders in the world. And to be the bright light for their family and
• 1:00:39
  it's frustrating to me. It's deeply frustrating. I wish we could. But I am seeing it. But yes, this conversation, I could go on with all day above this, but you're 100% right, 100% tracking with what you're saying on that. And there is a clear agenda towards it. Yeah. And we have also tried to blur the lines between masculine and feminine anymore. And the fact of the matter is, is men need to quit apologizing for being men and women need to quit apologizing for being women.
• 1:01:05
  difference it never equal but it's fine and amazing when together yes and and i think there is a thing there and i i do believe that a lot of this is trauma related i believe that there's society trauma outside of just individual trauma and i do see a correction taking place right now i wish we'd have gotten there sooner but
• 1:01:25
  Um, I think everybody or two exactly. We had the part two will be coming soon. Um, guys, we thank you so much for tuning in today with my guest, Sean Wells. What a great conversation expert in his field, clearly, um, in many fields, I would say. Um, and I would say if you're interested in learning more about Sean and what Sean does, all of the links to his social medias, although he may not talk about it, or he wants to talk about meta, maybe look him in the LinkedIn app.
• 1:01:52
  Um, all will be below in show notes. Um, I encourage you to go check him out and everything he's doing, um, specifically related to peptides and supplementation. For those of you who are out there looking for real transparency and real vulnerability in manufacturing.
• 1:02:07
  It's important because the same way to talk about what you take with your food, you have that the same type of diligence when you're dealing with supplementation because supplements need to be treated as supplemental to what we're already taking in our diets. So pay attention, stay dedicated to that and continue to age defiantly. We'll see you next time.