Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Our Kids' Grades | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 3

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Our Kids' Grades | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 4 Episode 3 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Motherhood Uncut.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: We are so glad that you're here.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: But Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to this podcast all of those conversations that are actually kind of hard to have around motherhood.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: We will be talking about things that make you laugh, that probably make you cry in the best of ways, that move you, that inspire you, that teach you new things.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: And we are really committed to this podcast because we really believe that nobody should be mothering alone.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: So come jump in with us, pour yourself a glass of wine, cup of tea, put on your running shoes, turn on the audio in your car, and come be with us for a bit.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: We can't wait to mother with you.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Today Kate and I got inspired by an article that we recently read called Maybe Bad Grades Aren't That Bad.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Together we talk about kids' grades and achievement and pressure and really this race to nowhere that can sometimes be overwhelming and unnecessary for kids.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoy the show.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Listeners, it's Kate, and I really want to talk to you.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: If you consider yourself to be a high-achieving woman, someone who is driven by success and meeting your goals, and if you have kids between birth and 12, and if you are struggling with anxiety and mom guilt and exhaustion, you might qualify for my 12-week program that I have launched.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: And I would love to give you the opportunity to schedule a free call with me so that we can talk about whether or not this program might be useful for you.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the show notes.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Go on in and schedule that call in the next few days.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Do it now while it's on the top of your mind.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: And we'll figure out whether or not I can help you get there to where you want to go.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: See you soon.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: As many of you know, I provide services like psychotherapy, parenting support, group facilitation, and public speaking all along the topics of deepening connection.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: The mother-daughter journey specifies in mother-daughter connection, but a lot of my talks are not gender specific.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: And the good news is that many of my topics are also very practical for strengthening partner and friendship connections.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: I just wrapped up my fall season of my workshops.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: But if you want to stay in the know, go to my website at motherdaughterjourney.co or debruben.com.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: I can take you to the same place and sign up for my newsletter where you'll receive fun facts and tips to increase your connection.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: You will also stay informed with any upcoming offerings.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Lastly, I have loved doing curated courses.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: So if that is something that sounds interesting, definitely email me at deb at debruben.com, and together we can create something specific for your community and help build your parenting village.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: I look forward to working with you.
3:06
SPEAKER_01: Hi Deb.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Hi, babe.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: It's another podcast day.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: Happy podcast day.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's five o'clock, so cheers.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Actually, this is how we started with our podcast, right?
3:18
SPEAKER_00: We'd have these conversations over a glass of wine or the pool or a walk or a hike, and it's like actually, it's sort of like what we're gonna do today.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Because we're just gonna break down an article we read.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Before we do that, I'm gonna throw a little cruball.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: What if we each gave like a short little update on just where we're at with parenting right now?
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Our own kids.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: And then we'll jump into it.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: And then we'll jump in.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Great.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, do you want to go first or do you want me to?
3:47
SPEAKER_00: I'll go first.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay, where am I at with my own kids?
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, as you know, I don't know if our listeners know, but we are moving to Japan for six months in uh January.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: And it is now the end of October, and so that once felt like it was a million miles away, and now it's like tomorrow.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: And I am feeling really, really good about what feels to me like a steadiness in both my girls that is sort of new.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: And I why and I the only reason I bring up Japan is I actually think there's this funny thing happening where they're obviously anxious about leaving and going somewhere new, but they're both really excited, and they're like like leaning into this adventure where we're all so out of our comfort zone with like wide open arms and tons of curiosity, and that feels really dare I say, reassuring.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I get that they're capable, like the to see them with that kind of capacity to sort of embrace something as scary as moving to a no new country where you don't know the language for six months.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and to see them doing that with such sort of um acceptance, it feels really good.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
5:14
SPEAKER_00: I will say I'm not seeing them very much right now.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: I am wor I'm really working a lot.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm working at night, I'm working on the weekends, I'm just partially in preparation to go away, and I'm so I'm feeling a bit disengaged, and that doesn't feel so good.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, there's my answer.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: That's a beautiful answer.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: And just to reflect, the the fact that you're all going into the unknown together.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: There's something when you said that, something in my system like settled of like, oh, you're like, you're all in.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, Jamie's been, but you've never been.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I would imagine that brings you to their level and them up to your level.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: There's some kind of like like equalizer.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: I keep calling it a family sabbatical.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: We're going on a family sabbatical, and I think you're right.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're not moving there because of someone's job or some they are like we're literally all just picking up and going.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: So cool.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so it feels like I think it's like equal ground.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Like we're all sort of on equal ground.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And um there's and they're old enough, you know, they're teenagers, so yeah, it's amazing.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: All right, your turn.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: All right, my turn.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: Um so I would say no one, dare I say, no one's in crisis at the moment.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Um I am very much living in a sea of two like ripe teenagers.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm doing it's I'm really getting a chance to practice everything I teach.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's funny, when I started doing the mother-daughter journey, my kids were small.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: And I was basing it off of what I read and learned in my own adolescence.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: And so now I'm just like in this new um place.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And actually, what I'm excited to say is that the tips and tools work.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Isn't it always so reassuring?
7:10
SPEAKER_00: It is.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: When you're like when you watch your talk and you're like, yep, yep, that works.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: That works.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: That works.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: And I'm also really aware of when I don't do it and what like the this little spirals of me jumping into the emotions with them.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: But I'm also really doing this dance of I mean, this sounds so n obvious, but it's so real of letting them be their own people and like backing the fuck up.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Like it is like my influence on them, I have to use really carefully right now.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, I mean, I was very influential for them.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: I would be like, oh, why don't you call so-and-so and or check in with grandma or whatever, you know, and they're like, Okay.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and now I'm like really aware of how sacred that privilege is to be influential, and how it's really important for them to discover who they are uh outside of me, and and it can be so uncomfortable, and so I'm just like really sitting with that discomfort and awe and trust and fear, and it's just like a swirl of opposites in my little body.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I you and I just had uh an important conversation before recording, you know, just about mothering and navigating all the stuff that you're talking about, and it just is so I'm just gonna share a moment of gratitude for you because I think when you co-mother with someone who loves your children almost as much as you do, yes, and who really wants what's in their best interest almost as much as you do, and who's aware of judgment and and really unwilling to judge as much as you are, it makes it all so much easier.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: So it's like you and I can watch our kids go through their own fucked up shit, just like we did when we were growing up.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: And we can step back and see it as not a problem.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: And hold perspective.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: And hold perspective and hold grace and hold like the whole hold perspective and grace both for our kids but also for our mothering.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, when we're all like, wait, I just did that thing I said it would never do.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Right, or whatever the thing is.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, parenting is a wild ride, man.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: But gratitude is very mutual.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And the last little piece I'll say is um it's like the ability to really step back and kind of like eat your popcorn and watch the show a little bit.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: And tr this is where I'm really leaning into trust, is like the universe is gonna give them feedback over and over.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: I can give them feedback, but what's really gonna land now and for the rest of their life is when the world gives them feedback.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: And and that is what we that is what the human experience is.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So I guess in this very moment I'm mostly feeling trust in the human experience because it really is so profound.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that was heavy.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: So we can't.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: It's actually a great, it's a great, great segue because I had reached out to you a few weeks ago about a dilemma I was having with respect to my high school students' grades, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_00: I remember I reached out to you, this was actually a while ago, and just to give some background, I am having this experience right now where after, you know, many, many years of getting A's.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, you school was easy for both of your girls.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that that's a fair statement.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think there were years when it was easy, but I think if you take a kid who's a fast learner and you combine that with highly self-directed and motivated, you're gonna get an A.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that it was easy.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: I think that they had those two things together.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think as they were also very focused.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so maybe that's the word.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like they weren't distracted.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, when it was time to learn something, it was easier because they were so focused.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like they had all the pieces you would need to get an A.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's just right, like they were focused, they were interested, their brains just worked quickly, they learned quickly, and they put in the motivation and the work without me and Jamie needing to be like do your homework.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: Like they would just do it.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so now I have a junior in high school and she's taking AP classes.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: And they're freaking hard.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: And she's in AP physics, and it's hard, and she doesn't understand it.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: And she had a D.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's like never in my life have I ever really cared what grades my kids got.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: We were like you and like many families out there, just like, you know what?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: As long as you're putting your effort in and doing your best, it doesn't matter if you have what grade.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: But she's a junior in college and wants to go to freaking Santa Barbara.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: You can't get into Santa Barbara with a D, right?
12:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: So I'm stuck in this place where I'm like, wow, what is my role as a parent?
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Our role, Jamie's and my role as parents in supporting her to quote unquote do better in school.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: And is that necessary?
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Do we let her learn her own way?
12:38
SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing we were just saying.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: It's the same thing.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: And like, and to your point, okay, so here's your point.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, there are natural consequences.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: And is the natural consequence that she doesn't get into this?
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Because let me back up for a moment and say, honestly, I can say with like my two feet on the ground, I do not care where this kid goes to college.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I don't believe that where you go to college is gonna make or break your life.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: But if she says she wants to go to a college, then she's gonna like step it up 12 knots, right?
13:08
SPEAKER_00: But is she stepping it up?
13:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, she got herself a tutor.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is the kid.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she got herself a tutor, she's going in for extra help.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: So who knows?
13:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, physics, AP physics, no, thank you.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I look at those things.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Hell no.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't, I don't, it's like I was in applied physics.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what that means?
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know what the word means.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: In my school, my public school, I was in applied chemistry and applied physics.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: It was like for people that really weren't getting in.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, I think I would have been in that class with you, but we had so much fun.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think the other thing is like you you're motivated, we as humans are motivated to learn when we're interested.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure she's that likes it that much.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: She's just not that interested.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: Yep, yeah.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: So you and I came across this op-ed in the New York Times, and it's written by someone named Tim Donohue.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna put this in the show notes, and the title is If everyone gets an A, no one gets an A.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: And you and I were talking about, and I we invite everyone to go look at this op-ed.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: It's fascinating.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: We'll put it in the show notes, as I said, but it's sort of the summary of this idea.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: Tim Donahue has been a teacher for 30 years, and he's really looking at grades and do they matter and what do they mean?
14:18
SPEAKER_00: And there's some crazy statistics, like 47% of high school students are getting A's now or something.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they were correct me if I'm wrong, but they were applying it to maybe teacher burnout around grading and pressure from parents.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: Pressure from parents.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's more like are the kids actually getting smarter?
14:38
SPEAKER_01: Because there was also a stat that grades are higher, but SATs are lower.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: And H T's too.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And ACTs, which by the way, SATs and ACTs is yeah, it's like one way of testing.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: But it brings up a really it's kind of like when everyone got a trophy on the soccer field.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: And like I remember when my kid got the trophy, she's like, meh, everyone got the trophy.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: It had no meaning.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just an interesting.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: I think the intentions are probably good to give people A's, but it's maybe giving our kids a message that they're smarter than they think.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what you yeah, I think that's one thing you can take from this op-ed.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: The other is that I mean, now let's jump into the parent side for a minute, right?
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, we feel good when our kids get good reads.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Let's just not deny it.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Remember when your kids were little and they were starting to read and they'd read the pages and get all the words right, and you were like, Oh yeah, my kid is awesome.
15:35
SPEAKER_00: And then they'd take you'd give grab another book out of the side and give it to them, and they'd stumble and you'd be like, Let's get you an easier book.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Like there's this thing about how we as parents can feel better when our kids get A's because we tell ourselves that they're not making mistakes.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: And that they don't have to be uncomfortable.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, well, right, because if our kid comes, like if Kinley comes home with a D or a C, I think of several things to myself.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: I think number one, this is hard for her.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: And my first brain and my thought goes to I literally said this to her, why don't you drop AP?
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Take an easier class.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's where I went.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, as if it ha if the class being hard was bad.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: Can I can I confess?
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: When Sage was kind of deciding if she should do AP, I was like, what's the point?
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, I kind of encourage, because A, she's not an AP type of student.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And I say that with like total feet on the floor.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just know how hard she will work.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: But I was also like, What's what's that's like a race to nowhere?
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the point?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: But well, I think that's a great, I mean, I think that's a whole other conversation.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, do our kids have to be taking, like, why?
16:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, why push yourself?
16:48
SPEAKER_00: You're about to go to college.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'm with you.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually not a huge, I mean, I encourage Kinley to not take APS, but here's my kid who's like, no, I want it to be hard.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So okay, so now it's hard, and she's getting a lower grade, and my thought is drop the class.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so now I'm saying it to her, it makes more sense for you to be learning less and be less challenged and get a better grade than it is to be more challenged to make more mistakes and get a lower grade.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: What is that?
17:20
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you what that is.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: What you said earlier.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: The consequence of that is that she might not go to the school she wants.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: And even though you said, I am not attached to the school, there's still a thing of like, it's such a big part of her life.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: It changes the trajectory of her potential life, sort of.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: Like in the big picture, maybe not.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: But I think we do parents that are thinking about college or whatever's next, there's some agenda there a little bit.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: For sure.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: But let's just for the purpose of this brief part of this conversation.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, why did you choose ease over?
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's take the college piece out.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Because many people listening don't have kids who need good grades to get into college in this moment, right?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the first year that I've ever thought about it.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Let's go back a little bit and just go back to this like why do we choose ease?
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like why do we think why are there so many of us out there who get hooked when our kid comes in with a quote unquote low grade?
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, why, yeah, to your point.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: Why do we choose ease in a high grade over challenge in a low grade?
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Because growth mindset says, which this op-ed also talks about, yeah, that we actually, people who are challenged and who go continue to move through things that are hard and to struggle through them, their brains are growing at a faster rate, which means they're gonna be more successful later on.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I just had such a flashback of us sitting on the back of your porch and Sage was really struggling with math.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: And you said to me, You're like, kids that work hard, that work harder have more brain growth.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh, good.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I just had to go there.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: But hold on, there's this, this is where parent there's no black and whites because I think that we want our kids to have brain growth.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: We also know that being an achievement-focused kid creates an environment of perfection, which then is very limiting to trying new things.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: We also know that when unnecessary stress is happening for young people, it creates a slew of other problems.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: And so this is this martial art of what's the what's the middle ground?
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, those are two topics that you and I have our list for this for this season is stress, you know, what's the deal with stress and is it good or bad?
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And high achieving mothers and how easy it is to bring that high achieving pressure to our children.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are two different conversations we can come back to, but I think you're right.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's like what what per and I don't have an answer.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: You and I are rumbling here.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: I know.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: I think what per like what is what is what purpose does high press what purpose do we play and where are the pros and cons when we pressure our kids to get good grades?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Which by the way feels very different than what we were saying before.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't hear, based on your example of Kinley and Physics, I don't hear pressure.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: I hear you saying, Kinley, you have a goal.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: What do you need to do to achieve that goal?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: I think which feels kid-driven.
20:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what?
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just laughing.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: You know how you said earlier that you're practicing what you preach?
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm practicing what I preach.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: That's not an easy like part of me wants to be like, get your fucking grades up.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: What are you doing?
20:59
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, thank you for acknowledging.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's not, it's, it's like work.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: It's like doing something different.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Were you given the message, get good grades?
21:08
SPEAKER_00: I got terrible grades.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Actually, that's such a I don't know why you said that.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: That is not true.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, all up until high school, I got not quite great grades.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: In high school, I was on the quote unquote honor roll and felt very impressed by that of myself.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: And then in college, I had a 1.7 at Vanderbilt University before I transferred to CU Boulder.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Bad grades.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: And at Boulder, I don't think my grades were good.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: I think they were fine.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And then I went to Smith where we were shined.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was good enough.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: There were no grades.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: It was past fail.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Which is actually kind of amazing.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: I went, I finished it in Europa.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: We used to do these, our finals were I can't remember what it was called.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: They were warrior exams.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: We would learn like 12 questions.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: We had to like, they were deep and layered and intense, and we had to learn every little component of them.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And then we'd pick, we'd sit in a circle, two people.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Would sit in the middle of a circle, you'd pick a question out of a hat, your questioner would ask, you would have your chance to shine, and then the questioner would have a chance to shine too.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And it went, it was a conversation, and it was like the most beautiful way of testing.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Those tests I still remember.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Like I remember the Four Noble Truths.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing that that article talked about.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Like some remember was talking about teachers in different parts of the country, and it was talking about how, like, are the kids getting an A because the teacher drills them in the right answers over and over and over before they get the test, take the test.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's a different, there's no learning on that.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: It's memorizing, no critical thinking.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: No.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: No, this is so such a problem in the system.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but wait, let's go back.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Because I think if we're talking about mothering and how do we show up for our kids in these problems, I haven't thought.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Great.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: And it's not original.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: It's not original.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: It is not original.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: We're allowed to recruit thoughts we've heard from other people.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: I think what makes a kid feel like they have purpose and they can feel proud of something is when they come up with it, when there's buy-in.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: And so if we're working with Kinley here, we're just gonna keep going back to it.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: She is the one that Love you Kinley.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: Love you, Kinley, nugget.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's like she is the one that wants the better grade, right?
23:24
SPEAKER_01: And so the question starts with like, how do you want this to end?
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, where do you see this?
23:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but time out.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: I gotta make a confession confession.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: I had a conversation, Jamie and I had a conversation, we had a dinner conversation, a whole family about this.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: And she said to us, It's my junior year, we're moving to Japan.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: I kind of just want to enjoy myself.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: And this was this is different than what she said at the beginning of the year, where her goal for the year was to get all these.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so she shifted.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, that statement makes so much sense to me on a soul level.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: On an achievement level, I tightened.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Here's the crux.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: I was like, dude, just fucking get a good grade.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Just do it.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm like feeling the polarizate the polarities right in that moment.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Because at the same time, she's a kid, and kids live in the moment, and they don't they don't really have a lot of perspective, a lot of time.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Some of them really do.
24:28
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, that was my theory.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Fuck you.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: We're going back to this thing, which my circle around like a freaking totem pole.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: It's like there's no right answer.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: There's no right answer, right?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's sort of like here's where I go, here's where I'm gonna land in this moment.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Here, here's where I am.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: This is the decision I'm making in this moment.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Kate shimmying, just saying.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: Closing my eyes, my feet are on the floor.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I want to say.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna lean into this trust I have, and excuse me for being woo-woo for those of you who are not in Boulder, Colorado, but the universe has our back.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: Like Kinley's life is gonna unfold the way it is supposed to unfold.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: And if I step back and encourage her to make the right decisions for her based on what she believes is right for her, and again, she's turning 17 in a couple months, so that she's not six, she's not trying to make these decisions with a six-year-old brain.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Like she's you know, she's old enough to have some experience under her belt.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: That like And she's discovering who she is separate from you and Jamie.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: So if I can step back and be like, all right, let's trust the process.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Whatever happens will happen.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: That actually feels so good in my mom.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that feels good for me.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: The whole energy in the room just shifted.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Did you feel good?
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Jamie's gonna be really bummed when she doesn't go to Santa Barbara and keep a surfboard in her dorm room for him.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: Ew.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: That's all I can say.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Jamie, I love you.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: But no, but you're right.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: The room did the room did shift.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: It feels so much better.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Because we actually have to pick and choose the moments that we're gonna like really, really step in.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: And there's so many more moments where we step back.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: So many more.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Like there's not a lot to do.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's a lot with parenting.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of logistics to do.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to like actually seeing your humans for who they are, we just all do so much better when we just see them.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: We just honor them for who they are, and we let go of an agenda.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And we just ask the right questions.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: We need to know the right questions to ask.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: You you've talked about that so beautifully in prior episodes, like and coming in with neutral curiosity where you're just unfolding, you're unfolding, right?
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Like the question is okay, if you had a CRD on your transcript and that meant you didn't get into X school, how would that feel for you?
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Right?
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Or or how do you want how do you want to feel at the end of this semester?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's sort of inviting some future thinking, which then invites goal setting, which I think is a wonderful skill to teach a young person.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: And also it's like, she said, I kind of just want to have fun.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: It's like, Kinley, yeah, you've worked really hard, really hard for the last however long you've been in school.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And let's weigh out what that looks like for you.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: It might mean dropping this class too late.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: So it might mean getting a C plus, you know, or a B minus.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, she got a tutor, knowing Kinley, and I'm sure a lot of kids out there like this that have that mentality to take an AP class to begin with, she's gonna do whatever she needs to do to get to not fail.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Something's coming up for me, and I think this is a pl a perfect place to wrap up because it kind of comes us, brings us full circle.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: You have this mantra that you've shared with me individually and also in your mother-daughter journey courses.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I hear you talk about this all the time, and it's a question.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: And the question is what's in service of the relationship?
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, what matters most that Kinley gets into X, Y, or Z college, or that our kids, for the listeners out there, have A, B, or C grades, or that we have the kind of solid, secure connection and relationship that enables them to keep trusting us in their process of growing up and coming back to us.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's it.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what if we were to stop focusing on the achievements and put all that energy back into the relationship?
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Hear, here.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: What a great way to wrap it up.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, that is actually why we're put on this earth.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: Alright, Kate.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna put a plug-in for your courses.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you, babe.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: I really am.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like I I think that's what I'm coming back to.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: It's like, gosh, we can get so in our own, like fine, limited perspective of like, I want my kid to do well, and what does she or he need to achieve?
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Because achievement means they'll have more opportunities and we can get hard, and we can get, you know, um, fine, our our perspective can get really fine, and then we miss the point.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: And your workshops, whether they're the mother journey connected ones where you're there with your daughter or where you're there on your own, teaches moms how to do that.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: So if there's anyone out there who has a daughter near or far, go check out Deb's website.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love you.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: And just to put it out there, this is like you're the first people to hear this listeners, but I'm just starting to dance with the idea of hiring a mother of sons and to start to co-create with my curriculum, but really using the wisdom of a mom who's mothering boys or those who identify as boy to just kind of see what else is out there.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of asks, and so this is just a seed being planted.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
30:46
SPEAKER_01: So cheers to Kinley.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being our um example, Kinley.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: And thank you, Kate, for showing up with so much curiosity, grace, and humility.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: It is profound.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: And cheers to all you mothers out there.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: We we're in this together.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: We are so in this together.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Thank God.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: We're not all doing this alone.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Hell yeah.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: All right, all right, till next time.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: Love ya.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey listeners, we sure hope you enjoyed that episode.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And if you did, we would really love for you to share this with a friend.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: So here's the deal: we're all in this together.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: And as a community of moms, we need to make sure that no one is left alone.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: So you can help us with that.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Please share this episode or other episodes that you found useful for you.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: Please consider writing a review and rating this podcast because when you do, it actually makes it more accessible to other moms who might be looking for a podcast that they would also find useful.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: So we are so grateful you're here.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: And if you were interested in just taking a minute or two to share and rate and review, Dev and I would be so grateful.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for mothering with us.