Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Fran Waters, MSW, DCSW, LMFT

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From the archives: Fran Waters, MSW, DCSW, LMFT · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Are Today we even another episode from the archives with
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Speaker 1: one of my incredible guests.
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Speaker 2: Enjoy.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Thepists podcast, a show about the
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Speaker 1: incredible people dedicated to helping those of experienced trauma. My
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Speaker 1: name is got macpherson, and my mission is to raise
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Speaker 1: awareness of trauma and to inspire each of us to
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Speaker 1: help those around us.
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Speaker 2: All right, Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast.
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Speaker 1: My name is Goy McPherson, and this is the podcast
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Speaker 1: now being listened to in forty four countries where we
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Speaker 1: interview master trauma therapists from all over the world to
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Speaker 1: learn about what inspires them and the steps they've taken
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Speaker 1: to become masters in their field. If you're a trauma therapists,
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Speaker 1: if you're interested in trauma therapy, or if you're simply
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Speaker 1: passionate about helping other people, this is it today. I
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Speaker 1: am so excited to introduce my guests. Fran Waters. Fran
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Speaker 1: are ready to go?
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Speaker 3: I think I am, and I'm excited all right.
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Speaker 1: So. Fran is a licensed clinical social worker and marriage
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Speaker 1: and family therapist in private practice in Marquette, Michigan. She
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Speaker 1: specializes in sexual, physical, and emotional abuse and association in
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Speaker 1: children and adults. Fran is past president of the International
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Speaker 1: Society for the Study of Trauma and Association and internationally
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Speaker 1: recognized trainer and consultant in the field of childhood trauma,
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Speaker 1: and has conducted extensive training programs both nationally and internationally.
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Speaker 1: All right, Fran, So just a little bit about you.
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Speaker 1: Take a moment, if you will share with us something
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Speaker 1: personal about yourself.
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Speaker 2: What's it like there.
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Speaker 1: Where you're living, and then we'll dive in.
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Speaker 3: All right, Well, I live and we're all part of
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Speaker 3: Michigan called the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It is a wonderful, magnificent,
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Speaker 3: bright sunny day of seventy three degrees, which is unusual
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Speaker 3: for here. All as encroaching on us rather quickly. The
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Speaker 3: colors are quite coming out, quite brightly with reds and yellows.
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Speaker 3: And I practiced in a rural community and I have
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Speaker 3: a solo private practice. I've been in this community since
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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty and it's a wintery kind of place to
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Speaker 3: live in the winter, but it's also quite beautiful.
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Speaker 2: All right.
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Speaker 1: So let's kind of transition to our first topic here,
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Speaker 1: which is a quote. This podcast really is about getting
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Speaker 1: to know you master trauma. Therapists with the goal of
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Speaker 1: inspiring other clinicians. In order to do that, we want
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Speaker 1: to know kind of what's inspired you on this journey.
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Speaker 1: Share with us, if you will, quote a mantra, whatever
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Speaker 1: it is that's helped you kind of along your path.
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Speaker 3: Okay, well, let me first speak a little bit about
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Speaker 3: what inspired me, and then I'll get to the quote,
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Speaker 3: because it's it's really rather hard to explain what inspired
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Speaker 3: me to work in this field other than I felt
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Speaker 3: like I was gravitated toward it, that there was this
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Speaker 3: sort of gravitational force. And I'm sure my upbringing had
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Speaker 3: a lot to do with it. My mother regrettably wasn't
3:14
Speaker 3: able to accept her four year scholarship and social work
3:18
Speaker 3: at Case Western Reserve and Ohio because of the Depression,
3:21
Speaker 3: and her father needed her to help her help him
3:24
Speaker 3: in the department store. And I came from a family
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Speaker 3: of helping those in need. And I love children. I
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Speaker 3: love working with children. I loved to see the transformation
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Speaker 3: that takes place. So I kind of had no other
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Speaker 3: way of being, I guess, other than being in this field.
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Speaker 3: I'm sure there was some unconscious stuff going on myself.
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Speaker 3: To relate it to my mother's fulfilled wish, but we
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Speaker 3: never really talked about it. We never talked about what
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Speaker 3: I was going to become when I started undergraduate school.
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Speaker 3: So I felt like this was just something that I
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Speaker 3: was meant to be, and I wanted just to state
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Speaker 3: that because it's I think this work requires a certain
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Speaker 3: amount of passion and something greater than can be explained
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Speaker 3: in a drive that makes us want to work in
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Speaker 3: this field. And then I'll get to the quote because
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Speaker 3: I think the quote has a lot of relevance to
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Speaker 3: particularly the work that I'm doing in dissociation. I like
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Speaker 3: Albert Einstein's quote. The quote goes like this, no problem
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Speaker 3: can be solved from the same level of consciousness that
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Speaker 3: created it. I think that's really powerful. And this quote
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Speaker 3: has relevance to me on two levels, one the child
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Speaker 3: and myself secondly as a clinician. So let's look at
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Speaker 3: the child first. How does this quote pertain to children
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Speaker 3: in this sense of consciousness. Well, the chronically traumatized children
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Speaker 3: used association to escape, of course, the horrors of what
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Speaker 3: they experience. It's their best way of surviving what at
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Speaker 3: the moment is difficult to even imagine. So dissociation is
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Speaker 3: the opposite of consciousness. So the child, in order to recover,
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Speaker 3: must begin to erode the dissociative barriers and to attain
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Speaker 3: a sense of consciousness about herself or himself. The child
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Speaker 3: needs to be mindful of the present, to stop using
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Speaker 3: dissociative defenses to cope after the trauma is over with,
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Speaker 3: which is very difficult because these children become so habitually trained,
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Speaker 3: at even minor stress to go somewhere in their mind
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Speaker 3: to dissociate. So to become conscious means not using those
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Speaker 3: defenses and facing the trauma and processing the trauma across
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Speaker 3: all sensory domains as a way of becoming conscious again
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Speaker 3: to the self, to the others, to the environment. So
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Speaker 3: back to Einstein, you can solve the problem of trauma
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Speaker 3: unless you resolve the dissociation and unless you become develop
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Speaker 3: a level of consciousness, which is the opposite of course
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Speaker 3: of dissociation. So the second part of that really pertains
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Speaker 3: to me as a clinician. I needed to readjust my
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Speaker 3: old paradigm of seeing these traumatized children as whole children
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Speaker 3: with symptoms and just working and approaching them as if
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Speaker 3: they are a unified child, as if there was one
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Speaker 3: child there that was traumatized and that that was going
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Speaker 3: to help them. Hell now I got as I began
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Speaker 3: to specialize more and more, and I worked for many,
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Speaker 3: many years in Marquette, and even before then, in my
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Speaker 3: undergraduate years, I was fortunate to work as a therapist
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Speaker 3: and a community mental health center. In my postgraduate years,
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Speaker 3: I worked for twelve years at our local mental health
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Speaker 3: center here in Marquette, and I was developing especially and
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Speaker 3: severely traumatized children and became more and more steeped and
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Speaker 3: understanding about sexual abuse, and got a lot of training,
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Speaker 3: and I recognized more and more that as I worked
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Speaker 3: with these children that I wasn't working with a whole,
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Speaker 3: unified self. I was working with a child that was fragmented,
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Speaker 3: That there were different states of the child, different levels
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Speaker 3: of consciousness, or I should say levels of unconsciousness within
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Speaker 3: the child. That there was this inner life that was
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Speaker 3: so incongruent with what was going on in the external
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Speaker 3: life of the child, and that in order for me
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Speaker 3: to treat them successfully, I had to change my bear paradigm.
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Speaker 3: I had to become more conscious of what was going
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Speaker 3: on in the unconscious life of the child, what was
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Speaker 3: driving that behavior, The different changes in their mood and
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Speaker 3: behavior and memory problems. So that started me to begin
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Speaker 3: to recognize dissociation and children. And that's kind of an
8:49
Speaker 3: interesting story about how that first came about. And I
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Speaker 3: don't know if that's something you would like me to
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Speaker 3: elaborate on later, but I can if you give you with.
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Speaker 1: A life Let's stop there for a second, because you
9:02
Speaker 1: just blew that question out of the water.
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Speaker 2: I mean, we could, we could hit the hit.
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Speaker 1: The stop button right there, and I think that would
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Speaker 1: be an amazing interview. Fran You just you just hit
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Speaker 1: hit it on so many levels here, and I think
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Speaker 1: really just gave me and I think our listeners a
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Speaker 1: lot of insight not only into what's driven you, but
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Speaker 1: really into UH ways or perspectives of how to approach
9:31
Speaker 1: you know, UH individuals have been traumatized. A couple of
9:35
Speaker 1: things that really struck me is I love the way
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Speaker 1: you started this out by by kind of framing what
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Speaker 1: you were going to say by saying there was like
9:45
Speaker 1: some gravitational pull or force. I believe the word that
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Speaker 1: you used that has really driven you to this work.
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Speaker 1: You know, you talked about your mom and her unfulfilled
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Speaker 1: wish as well and then of course that quote by Einstein,
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Speaker 1: and I love how you or how that's kind of
10:02
Speaker 1: set the foundation for your paradigm shift. That's really really
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Speaker 1: effective and and to me, I just got a lot
10:11
Speaker 1: out of you kind of juxtaposing uh, you know, the
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Speaker 1: two concepts of dissociation and consciousness and how that's playing
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Speaker 1: out in.
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Speaker 2: Your work with kids.
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Speaker 1: I mean, just really really insightful and helpful, I think too.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just we can hear that, definitely hear the
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Speaker 1: passion in your voice. So let's let's kind of, uh
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Speaker 1: maybe go a little step further here and you know,
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Speaker 1: talk about uh, I'll talk about a little more into
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Speaker 1: what led you into this field.
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Speaker 2: I know you certainly touched on it.
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Speaker 1: You know, for me, everybody obviously gets into this field
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Speaker 1: for different reasons, and it really resonated with me what
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Speaker 1: you said about you know, there needs to be this passion,
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Speaker 1: and for me, definitely there was. I mean I've often
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Speaker 1: talked about my brother who's really inspired me. He came
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Speaker 1: back from Iraq and the Special Forces with PTSD and
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Speaker 1: I was I just screwed it up, you know.
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Speaker 2: I was so excited to.
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Speaker 1: Find out what his experiences were what he was doing,
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Speaker 1: and he just did not want to talk about it,
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Speaker 1: couldn't talk about it.
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Speaker 2: And I didn't know why, and I just.
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Speaker 1: Kept pushing him and pushing him. And now obviously I
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Speaker 1: could understand that. So break it down for us. What
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Speaker 1: led you into this field?
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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know, maybe serendipitous circumstances. I graduated undergraduate
11:46
Speaker 3: in social work University, Ohio University, and then I had
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Speaker 3: job opportunities back in sixty nine. There were many job
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Speaker 3: opportunities then, and I gravitated to a work and protective services.
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Speaker 3: I was a predicted service caseworker in Columbus, Ohio, but
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Speaker 3: I knew I wanted to do therapy. There was a
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Speaker 3: kid and there was something driving me to do therapy
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Speaker 3: and lo and behold. At Case Western University, which is
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Speaker 3: in northern Ohio, there was a week long program on
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Speaker 3: family therapy play therapy and I was protect a service
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Speaker 3: worker caseworker at that time and I was able to
12:28
Speaker 3: take this training. So I took this training and I
12:33
Speaker 3: began to do therapy with the kids that I was
12:36
Speaker 3: working with as a caseworker, and I pulled in some
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Speaker 3: master levels social workers and psychologists to help me from
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Speaker 3: the local Metal House center so that I can learn
12:48
Speaker 3: to do something I knew. I knew I needed to
12:52
Speaker 3: not just direct people. I wanted to inspire these high
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Speaker 3: risk families. I wanted to inspire these children to heal.
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Speaker 3: There was again, there was something in me that was
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Speaker 3: driving me, and I'm not sure what it was exactly,
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Speaker 3: but it was there and that led me. Then after
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Speaker 3: four years at doing casework and protective service work, and
13:17
Speaker 3: I look back at that and I say, well, I
13:20
Speaker 3: did my duty for my country.
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Speaker 1: You know.
13:24
Speaker 3: I felt like I served in the armed services because
13:27
Speaker 3: you know, I was hit overhead in court by a
13:29
Speaker 3: psychotic woman when I had to go in front of
13:32
Speaker 3: the judge to help commit her, and I was followed
13:36
Speaker 3: by people. They weren't very friendly toward me in my
13:39
Speaker 3: position as a protective service worker. So I then, because
13:44
Speaker 3: of my experience in working with therapy with these kids,
13:48
Speaker 3: I then got a job at the local mental health
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Speaker 3: center and then continue to work with children in the
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Speaker 3: inpatient unit at the Columbus Date Hospital, which was part
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Speaker 3: of that assignment. I was in the clinic, and then
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Speaker 3: I went on to get my master's degree from University
14:07
Speaker 3: of Iowa and my husband son and I relocated then
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Speaker 3: in Marquette in the Upper Peninsula here and then it
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Speaker 3: was the natural thing to do then was to work
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Speaker 3: at the Mental House Center in the child atolescent units.
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Speaker 3: So you know, this was my many million years of experience.
14:24
Speaker 3: Prior to graduate school and postgraduate I worked at the
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Speaker 3: mental health center. My first case was a seven year
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Speaker 3: old girl, clearly remember what she looked like, a cute
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Speaker 3: little girl who told me her brother sexually abused her.
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Speaker 3: This was in nineteen eighty That's when I started to
14:45
Speaker 3: work at the mental health center. At that time, the
14:50
Speaker 3: Phil Donna Whoe Show was on and I really liked it.
14:53
Speaker 3: It's not on now, and so I'm really dating myself
14:55
Speaker 3: by stating the Phil Donna who Show was on. Then
15:00
Speaker 3: there was a program on about sexual abusive children, and
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Speaker 3: they were showing these anatomically correct dolls, and I asked
15:07
Speaker 3: the clinic to order them, and they agree, and I
15:09
Speaker 3: began to use them and helping children express what happened
15:12
Speaker 3: to them. I went to every sort of national conference
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Speaker 3: available on sexual abusive children, became a specialist in that field.
15:20
Speaker 3: I did forensic vows and treatment of children who were abused,
15:24
Speaker 3: and I began to then get more and more referrals
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Speaker 3: of severely abused children and they were adopted. So I
15:34
Speaker 3: worked there for twelve years, and during that time I
15:37
Speaker 3: ran and developed I developed and ran a sexual abuse
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Speaker 3: treatment team, and I had a well developed treatment protocol.
15:45
Speaker 3: I was a bit sort of smug in my young years.
15:48
Speaker 3: I thought, I've got this down. I know how to
15:51
Speaker 3: treat these kids. In a year and a half, these
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Speaker 3: kids were recovered. But suddenly I had a kid in
15:59
Speaker 3: my MIDI in the mid eighties, like five years later
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Speaker 3: that wasn't recovering. And that was a turning point in
16:06
Speaker 3: my career. That's when I expanded my understanding of what
16:10
Speaker 3: dissociation in children look like. And I'll tell you a
16:16
Speaker 3: little bit about that. How that happened. I had this
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Speaker 3: little girl who was horribly abused. She was eight years old,
16:29
Speaker 3: had just been placed in her adoptive home, and wonderful
16:37
Speaker 3: adopted parents. They both were skilled and working with children,
16:42
Speaker 3: you know, they were they were you know, had careers
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Speaker 3: and working with children. This little girl was the oldest
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Speaker 3: of five siblings. I'll call her Lucy. She was severely
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Speaker 3: sexually abused by both of her parents and their party friends,
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Speaker 3: and she was forced to engage in sexualized behaviors with
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Speaker 3: her younger siblings. She was physically abused, with knife wounds
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Speaker 3: and cigarette burns, and her frill thin body. She was
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Speaker 3: the oldest that she tried to look after her siblings
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Speaker 3: and we go through garbage cans looking for food. They
17:18
Speaker 3: were all failure to thrive. I think you get the picture.
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Speaker 3: You know. I could go on, but I don't want
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Speaker 3: to shock the listeners hearing more and morbid stories about
17:27
Speaker 3: her life. So again, after about a year and a half,
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Speaker 3: Lucy came into my office. She'd been seeing me for
17:35
Speaker 3: a year and a half. She wasn't getting better, which
17:38
Speaker 3: was a bit surprising. So she wasn't in my office
17:42
Speaker 3: as if it was the first time, and I was
17:46
Speaker 3: actually her first time to walk into my office, so
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Speaker 3: to speak. This little part of Lucy looked around my
17:53
Speaker 3: office and was asking things like, oh, what's that? And
17:57
Speaker 3: she was looking at my child on my wall, and
18:01
Speaker 3: she was looking at some of the toys. Oh what's that?
18:05
Speaker 3: Now I was stunned. I thought, wow. But let me
18:10
Speaker 3: backtrack just a little bit to tell you a little
18:12
Speaker 3: bit more about the journey that led me to really
18:17
Speaker 3: recognize dissociative children. I was very fortunate. At that mental
18:24
Speaker 3: house center there was a psychiatrist, doctor lou Kunhoff, never
18:28
Speaker 3: forget her name, had just given a two hour in
18:32
Speaker 3: service on multiple personality disorder, and that's what they called
18:37
Speaker 3: it back then, as you well know, it's now the
18:39
Speaker 3: sociative identity disorder. I think she had just come back
18:43
Speaker 3: from the International Conference on the Study of Multiple Personality
18:48
Speaker 3: and Dissocial Disorders. So I was curious, you know, I
18:51
Speaker 3: knew that abuse had something to do with MPD. I thought, well,
18:56
Speaker 3: I think I'll go to this. I doubted if I
18:58
Speaker 3: would ever see a child with MPD. You know, I
19:01
Speaker 3: was sort of, you know, a bit naive at that point.
19:06
Speaker 3: So anyway, I went, and doctor Kunhoff began to describe
19:12
Speaker 3: symptoms of dissociation, including auditory and visual hallucinations, extreme mood
19:19
Speaker 3: and behavior switches, and memory problems amnesia. So back to Lucy.
19:24
Speaker 3: So Lucy's in my office, and I have now some
19:29
Speaker 3: tools or some understanding of what I think might be
19:33
Speaker 3: going on, but I was totally dumbfounded and a bit
19:37
Speaker 3: frightened myself as to what I was going to do.
19:40
Speaker 3: So I said to Lucy Lucy, do you hear voices
19:45
Speaker 3: in your head? And she said yes. Well, then I
19:50
Speaker 3: took a deep breath and I thought, now what do
19:53
Speaker 3: I do? Oh? Well, I would oftentimes ask her to
19:59
Speaker 3: drop pictures, So I said, would you like to draw
20:02
Speaker 3: a picture what that voice looks like? And she said yes,
20:05
Speaker 3: and she did and she called this little girl Samantha.
20:09
Speaker 3: And then I panicked. I thought, what am I going
20:12
Speaker 3: to do next? I don't know what to do next.
20:15
Speaker 3: This was in the mid eighties. So I called around
20:19
Speaker 3: and at that point doctor Richard Clough was unable to
20:22
Speaker 3: assist me. At that point he was in Pennsylvania. But
20:26
Speaker 3: I was fortunate to find two specialists, doctor Roger McKinley
20:30
Speaker 3: and his associate Anne Bailey, who practiced in Madison, Wisconsin,
20:36
Speaker 3: just six hours from Marquette, who worked with adult multiples,
20:41
Speaker 3: and they agreed to see Lucy and her family. So
20:44
Speaker 3: we all trapes the six hours from Marquette to Madison
20:49
Speaker 3: for Lucy to be evaluated. So after two days, parents
20:55
Speaker 3: and I were sitting on the couch and doctor McKinley
20:58
Speaker 3: was looking at me from a chair where he was
21:01
Speaker 3: sitting and announced that Lucy was a multiple and years later,
21:07
Speaker 3: he would tease me and said the look on my
21:10
Speaker 3: face was as white as a sheep, and I was
21:16
Speaker 3: I was like, my goodness, what do I do next?
21:19
Speaker 3: So he and Anne Bailey graciously provided consultation with me,
21:24
Speaker 3: and we forged a wonderful working relationship. They knew about
21:28
Speaker 3: did multiple person I disorder, I knew about child development
21:32
Speaker 3: and trauma and children, did not know about dissociation that
21:36
Speaker 3: deeper level. But we combined our skills and from that
21:39
Speaker 3: point on I began to quote recognize dissociation and children,
21:47
Speaker 3: and you know, I've become an international trainer and consultant
21:50
Speaker 3: since then. I say recognized because I look back and
21:53
Speaker 3: I think there were probably many that I missed, But
21:57
Speaker 3: that's sort of how things got started with me.
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Speaker 2: Wow. So what an amazing storyteller you are.
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Speaker 1: I mean that image of you know, from you starting
22:07
Speaker 1: out again. You know, you talked about this force that
22:10
Speaker 1: was driving you to do therapy that you really didn't
22:13
Speaker 1: know or don't know what it was. And then you know,
22:17
Speaker 1: through the different kind of levels of your experience ending
22:20
Speaker 1: up with this young girl, what was there a sense
22:26
Speaker 1: that this was what you needed to do at that point?
22:32
Speaker 1: Was it was it because you're you're you know, you've
22:36
Speaker 1: during this interview, you've kind of made a distinction in
22:38
Speaker 1: the sense where it seems that the spotlight is more
22:41
Speaker 1: on the association for you.
22:43
Speaker 2: Was is that where you've been pulled more? Would you
22:45
Speaker 2: say yes?
22:47
Speaker 3: Yes, although you know I do work with children, then
22:50
Speaker 3: are not associative and I have trauma. But the more
22:53
Speaker 3: I learn about the neurobiology of trauma, the more I
22:57
Speaker 3: learn about the degrees of just so that you do
23:01
Speaker 3: not have to have distinct states that take control of
23:04
Speaker 3: the body, but you can have aspects of the mind
23:07
Speaker 3: that hold different different components of the trauma, the feelings,
23:13
Speaker 3: the emotions, and the behaviors of the traumatic event, the memories,
23:17
Speaker 3: the physical sensations, the body sensations. The more I realize
23:23
Speaker 3: about the degree is the trauma, the more I realize
23:27
Speaker 3: that there usually is some sense of some degree of dissociation.
23:31
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be the extreme, you know, where
23:33
Speaker 3: there are separate personalities that take control of the body.
23:37
Speaker 3: But I think that we all have, you know, different
23:42
Speaker 3: aspects of ourselfs. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm
23:47
Speaker 3: a therapist, I'm a friend. You know, I'm a gardener.
23:52
Speaker 3: You know, and we all some different rules. I think
23:57
Speaker 3: what with dissociation and trauma that is so severe is
24:01
Speaker 3: that there's not the mind has segmented off these different rules,
24:08
Speaker 3: different parts of the south to survive and it was
24:12
Speaker 3: all part of the original traumatic experiences and how they
24:20
Speaker 3: had to cope with it. And so they have these
24:23
Speaker 3: segmented parts of the mind that are not connecting with
24:26
Speaker 3: one another. And I think that the most important work
24:31
Speaker 3: that we can do is to begin to help the
24:34
Speaker 3: child again to become conscious of those different feeling states,
24:39
Speaker 3: of those different behavioral changes that they exhibit, and to
24:46
Speaker 3: recognize how that is an expression of the unresolved trauma.
24:53
Speaker 3: And that is part of the integrative process, is to
24:57
Speaker 3: having the child own up to all that aspects the
25:00
Speaker 3: different unique nuances within the child. That helps that child
25:06
Speaker 3: to feel more unified, to feel unified. So I don't know,
25:13
Speaker 3: I hope I didn't get off track.
25:15
Speaker 1: No, No, I think I think that's a that's a
25:17
Speaker 1: really great summary of what's going on. Let's let's move
25:22
Speaker 1: on here. You know, we've talked a little bit about
25:24
Speaker 1: your journey into the specialization of the field. Now friend,
25:28
Speaker 1: let's kind of focus on an early clinical error. Tell
25:31
Speaker 1: us a story about an early clinical error you made,
25:36
Speaker 1: and really kind of what you learned from that, how
25:39
Speaker 1: that maybe has since influenced you as clinician.
25:42
Speaker 3: Okay, if if you have time, I would I have
25:46
Speaker 3: two and I could not decide on which one, so
25:49
Speaker 3: I'll tell both and you can kind of decide how
25:53
Speaker 3: do you want to go with that. But I've learned
25:55
Speaker 3: two important things from my mistakes, and I actually I
25:59
Speaker 3: have to continually remind myself of these mistakes because I
26:02
Speaker 3: have a tendency to want to rush in and help
26:06
Speaker 3: these children and rather than slow down, is actually the
26:10
Speaker 3: faster rate of helping these kids. But one of them
26:14
Speaker 3: goes back to Lucy, the very first child that I
26:17
Speaker 3: just described to you, that came in in the eighties
26:20
Speaker 3: and I didn't know what I was doing really with her,
26:23
Speaker 3: and I was anxious to help her. She was highly dysregulated,
26:28
Speaker 3: as you can imagine with her history. She would switch
26:31
Speaker 3: rapidly from one state to another, particularly at bedtime. She
26:36
Speaker 3: would become hyper aroused, giddy, angry, raging, crying, sobbing, oh,
26:42
Speaker 3: within a short period of time. Bedtime was really difficult.
26:47
Speaker 3: I'm sure it was a huge trigger for her when
26:51
Speaker 3: a lot of the trauma, the sexual abuse and physco
26:53
Speaker 3: abuse probably occurred. Her mother was wonderful, tried everything she
27:01
Speaker 3: could to help calm her down with dresser and the
27:05
Speaker 3: dead of winter at nighttime with boots and overcoats and
27:09
Speaker 3: walk her up and down the snowy driveway to get
27:12
Speaker 3: her to calm down. And she finally fall asleep at nighttime,
27:17
Speaker 3: and she was so highly sensitized and minor triggers. Just
27:23
Speaker 3: talking about what happened was set her off. She was
27:26
Speaker 3: so unable to soothe herself. So what I learned from
27:31
Speaker 3: MAD is the importance of stabilization with these dissociative children,
27:38
Speaker 3: and particularly helping them with affect regulation and also regulation
27:45
Speaker 3: of their behavior. But affect regulation, I think is so critical.
27:50
Speaker 3: I think the most delitious impact of trauma on children
27:55
Speaker 3: is the dysregulation of the affect. If they are constantly
27:59
Speaker 3: in a hyper arouser or numbing, the brain isn't functioning well.
28:04
Speaker 3: It's not able to think clearly. So I have since
28:09
Speaker 3: then developed many many strategies to help calm the stress
28:14
Speaker 3: response system to get the higher part of their brain working.
28:19
Speaker 3: I've developed some hypnotic techniques with children to help them
28:26
Speaker 3: safely discharge a lot of their anger. For example, a
28:29
Speaker 3: lot of these children, of course, have rage, and they
28:32
Speaker 3: have a lot of self destructive and aggressive tendencies. And
28:36
Speaker 3: one of the things that I developed that I found
28:39
Speaker 3: to be extremely extremely helpful, and the kids really seem
28:45
Speaker 3: to like it and they get it right away, is
28:47
Speaker 3: they have such an internal life within their mind. They
28:52
Speaker 3: have a life internally that is so different than the
28:57
Speaker 3: external life. They create whatever they need to create to
29:00
Speaker 3: help them survive and to keep going. So it's very
29:05
Speaker 3: easy without any formal hypnotic inductions. You could suggest to
29:10
Speaker 3: chonin things and what I what I suggested, And this
29:15
Speaker 3: started with one little girl. Oh my goodness, was like
29:19
Speaker 3: five o'clock at night. I had seen this little girl
29:22
Speaker 3: at various times of her childhood and she was physically
29:25
Speaker 3: abused by her father and his rights were terminated, and
29:29
Speaker 3: she started stealing things from the locker room at school.
29:34
Speaker 3: She was thirteen. She started doing a lot of odd
29:37
Speaker 3: behaviors and she was referred to me again and I
29:42
Speaker 3: asked her she heard voices in her head and she said, yes,
29:45
Speaker 3: I do. It's an inner voice of her biological father,
29:49
Speaker 3: which was the bad voice. And the internal voice of
29:52
Speaker 3: her mom, which was the good voice. Anyway, Harry was
29:56
Speaker 3: sitting in this room, and this bad voice of hers
29:59
Speaker 3: as she called that, the dad voice, was not at
30:02
Speaker 3: all going to agree to stop letting her, stop getting
30:07
Speaker 3: her to steal things. And she was on probation for stealing,
30:12
Speaker 3: and she wasn't able to go to school at that
30:15
Speaker 3: point because she had stolen from the locker rooms. So
30:18
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there and I'm really getting tired. And he
30:21
Speaker 3: wasn't going to buy this part. Wasn't going to buy anything,
30:24
Speaker 3: I said, And he didn't want to give her any
30:27
Speaker 3: control at all. And I was trying to use a
30:29
Speaker 3: little bit of cognitive therapy with him, you know, and
30:33
Speaker 3: trying to rationalize with him about, well, this is going
30:36
Speaker 3: to get her in a lot of trouble, and he
30:38
Speaker 3: didn't care. And it went on and on, and finally,
30:43
Speaker 3: I don't know where this idea came from, but finally,
30:47
Speaker 3: I said, and she was talking for him. She wasn't switching,
30:51
Speaker 3: but she was talking for him. And it occurred to me,
30:55
Speaker 3: this guy carries all the anger. And I said, you know,
31:00
Speaker 3: I think this part of you has done you a favor.
31:02
Speaker 3: He's really carried a lot of anger for what happened
31:07
Speaker 3: to you, but every turn he's also taken control over
31:11
Speaker 3: your behavior. I wonder if he would be willing to
31:15
Speaker 3: take that anger and express it in a different way.
31:22
Speaker 3: For example, I wonder if he would be willing to
31:25
Speaker 3: have an internal anger room where he could have what
31:29
Speaker 3: he needs, like a punching bag and art supplies and
31:33
Speaker 3: things like that that would help him get that anger out.
31:38
Speaker 3: And all of a sudden she let up and he said, yeah,
31:41
Speaker 3: he's willing to do that. I had such a sense
31:44
Speaker 3: of relief because I didn't know what I was going
31:46
Speaker 3: to do. And so he developed this elaborate into a
31:51
Speaker 3: room and then I said he could have anything in
31:55
Speaker 3: there he once, and of course he wanted jeck food.
31:58
Speaker 3: Uh huh, I thought interesting. And he wanted a swimming
32:03
Speaker 3: pool with a slide. I thought, this is not an
32:08
Speaker 3: internalized bad guy dad, This is a kid. And this
32:12
Speaker 3: kid probably took a lot of the physical and emotional
32:16
Speaker 3: abuse from her father, and he was willing to do
32:19
Speaker 3: all that. And I said, go ahead and do that,
32:22
Speaker 3: and he did and she I said how's he doing?
32:27
Speaker 3: And she said, he's doing fine. He wants to go
32:30
Speaker 3: there now to get away from all of this. Oh,
32:35
Speaker 3: I thought that was kind of funny, get away from
32:37
Speaker 3: having to talk anymore. And it was so interesting. Now
32:41
Speaker 3: at the end, he thanked me for providing this opportunity
32:46
Speaker 3: for him, and I asked if he would be willing
32:50
Speaker 3: to let us know what he was going to work
32:53
Speaker 3: the anger, What was he going to work on, what
32:57
Speaker 3: was he going to release regarding the anger? What happened
33:00
Speaker 3: you take for her? And he said no, I'm just
33:04
Speaker 3: work it out on my own. He didn't want to
33:06
Speaker 3: tell her. So really this one was a protector part
33:09
Speaker 3: of her. So that was such a great, great experience,
33:14
Speaker 3: and again, I'm just really fortunate that that came to me.
33:18
Speaker 3: I have no idea. Again, I think it was that
33:20
Speaker 3: divine intervention that it came to me. But I have
33:24
Speaker 3: used that technique over and over with the most highly aggressive,
33:30
Speaker 3: you know, teenagers that were into a lot of serious
33:34
Speaker 3: behaviors and involved in the court system, and it has
33:38
Speaker 3: worked with these dissociative kids. I adapted it to also
33:44
Speaker 3: include a comfort room adjoining the anger room, where they
33:51
Speaker 3: could go in and relax and have whatever they want
33:55
Speaker 3: in there for comfort, junk food, you know, they oftentimes
33:58
Speaker 3: want food, pillow, funny movies, books to read, art supplies,
34:04
Speaker 3: whatever they want. One young man developed a whole dance
34:08
Speaker 3: studio because he liked music, and I found that to
34:13
Speaker 3: be very helpful. And I found that to be rather
34:15
Speaker 3: integrative because you're combining that rage with calmness and relaxation
34:23
Speaker 3: and fun. And these parts did not know what I
34:27
Speaker 3: meant by relaxation and fun. It took them a little
34:29
Speaker 3: while to kind of get into that. After they worked
34:34
Speaker 3: on the anger in the anger room, they were willing
34:36
Speaker 3: to go in and see what this was like. And
34:39
Speaker 3: that was very integrative because I was helping them blend
34:42
Speaker 3: their emotional states. So what I learned from this, and
34:48
Speaker 3: that was the first thing, was that we need to
34:51
Speaker 3: calm down this stress response system before we can really
34:54
Speaker 3: begin to do therapy with these kids, not do therapy
34:58
Speaker 3: before we can process their trauma. They have to calm down,
35:02
Speaker 3: and they also have to work with the different parts
35:04
Speaker 3: of themselves in collaboration. But the affect dysregulation was a
35:09
Speaker 3: real empairment to getting the higher part of the brain working.
35:14
Speaker 3: So that is the first lesson. Now i'd like to
35:16
Speaker 3: tell you the second mistake that I made that I
35:19
Speaker 3: think is very important, if I.
35:21
Speaker 2: May sure Sure.
35:23
Speaker 3: The second one has to do with the importance of
35:27
Speaker 3: attachment figures in a child's life. I have learned that
35:33
Speaker 3: in order for us to do this kind of work,
35:36
Speaker 3: these children have to have a secure attachment or at
35:40
Speaker 3: least someone in their life that is supporting them and
35:44
Speaker 3: rooting for them that inspires them to face the tough
35:49
Speaker 3: work that they have to do. So I see the
35:53
Speaker 3: attachment as providing the anchor for the children to do
35:57
Speaker 3: this work. It's the anchor keeps them kind of stable.
36:02
Speaker 3: So I have learned that it's really important to focus
36:08
Speaker 3: on developing that relationship between the child and the parents,
36:13
Speaker 3: whether it's biological parents oftentimes they're adoptive or foster parents.
36:19
Speaker 3: To teach these parents how to be empathic to the child,
36:23
Speaker 3: to be attuned to what's going on internally with them,
36:27
Speaker 3: and just not see the behavior as that's the kid
36:31
Speaker 3: and define the kid by the behavior. So that is
36:34
Speaker 3: one part of the attachment. But the other part that
36:37
Speaker 3: I found in working with parents is very important. That
36:41
Speaker 3: is easy to miss because when you work with dissocial children,
36:47
Speaker 3: you're so focused on their trauma, their horrendous past, histories
36:52
Speaker 3: that you don't always recognize what's going on in the
36:54
Speaker 3: current environment. That also causes them to rely on association.
37:00
Speaker 3: So I have found that I've made this mistake that
37:04
Speaker 3: I haven't gotten really good histories on the parents. A
37:07
Speaker 3: lot of these parents they're good people, but they also
37:11
Speaker 3: have trauma histories and that they're easily triggered by these children.
37:16
Speaker 3: These children are extremely provocative, you know, they they're used
37:22
Speaker 3: to getting negative, negative responses. There are oftentimes have unresolved
37:29
Speaker 3: grief and loss issues about their own biological parents, and
37:34
Speaker 3: so they come with a plethora of lots of issues
37:39
Speaker 3: related in relationships, related to parents, and related to people
37:44
Speaker 3: that they don't trust. So I remember working with particularly
37:51
Speaker 3: with these two little kids that were adopted from Eastern Europe.
37:57
Speaker 3: They resided in the orphanage prior to their Then there
38:01
Speaker 3: was Sarah and Rudy. Sarah was three years old and
38:04
Speaker 3: Riddy was eighteen months old at the time they were adopted.
38:09
Speaker 3: They were like fairal children. They had to be taught
38:13
Speaker 3: to eat, speak, you know, how do you properly speak?
38:17
Speaker 3: They were highly hyper aroused and spent a lot of
38:20
Speaker 3: time spinning around and you know, agitating each other. They
38:24
Speaker 3: were quite aggressive, particularly Rudy, the younger one, was very aggressive,
38:29
Speaker 3: and he actually revealed to me that he had an inside,
38:32
Speaker 3: an invisible team inside that told him to choke his
38:36
Speaker 3: sister because they thought that they could eat humans, and
38:41
Speaker 3: they were hungry, and you know, they did not understand
38:46
Speaker 3: that there was food in the family. They had their
38:48
Speaker 3: own little misconception about reality, and so they were attacked
38:57
Speaker 3: the sister and I choked her to be pulled off.
39:00
Speaker 3: Of course, So and so these kids came with so
39:05
Speaker 3: much that I did not recognize maybe other things that
39:11
Speaker 3: also were contributing to Rudy's association. I didn't do an
39:16
Speaker 3: evaluation of the parent's history because they came in as
39:20
Speaker 3: a crisis, you know, and I wanted to get in there,
39:23
Speaker 3: and I wanted to help reduce Rudy's aggression, and the
39:27
Speaker 3: parents were pretty worn out. So it wasn't until later
39:33
Speaker 3: that Rudy in a session and we were talking about
39:36
Speaker 3: things that made him scared. He told me he was
39:38
Speaker 3: afraid of his mom because she yelled and spanked him
39:42
Speaker 3: when he was younger. Now, his mother wasn't doing that
39:45
Speaker 3: when I was seeing Rudy, and Rudy by that time actually,
39:48
Speaker 3: Rudy was seven when I started to see him, so
39:51
Speaker 3: she had, like you know, five and a half years
39:56
Speaker 3: of dealing with Rudy without any help, and so I
40:00
Speaker 3: did not get a history on her. And I went
40:03
Speaker 3: and I spoke to her alone and found out that
40:05
Speaker 3: she had quite a history of exposure to domestic violence.
40:11
Speaker 3: Her brother was severely being by her father many times,
40:14
Speaker 3: she herself was hit and verbally abused as well. There
40:19
Speaker 3: was alcoholism in the family, and so in her heightened stress,
40:26
Speaker 3: she reverted to what she saw in her family that
40:29
Speaker 3: was hitting and screaming, and she was very tearful, tearful
40:36
Speaker 3: when she admitted that to me. She was very tearful,
40:38
Speaker 3: very sad. So we had many family therapy sessions, including
40:43
Speaker 3: her husband, and she apologized to Rudy and his sister Sarah.
40:51
Speaker 3: And that was a real turning point with Rudy, because
40:56
Speaker 3: while I worked with him on the early trauma of
40:58
Speaker 3: his being h in the orphanage, being neglected, he still
41:04
Speaker 3: relied on some dissociation and I think part of that
41:08
Speaker 3: was that early fear about his mom hurting him, his
41:13
Speaker 3: adoptive mom, And that was really a turning point for Rudy.
41:20
Speaker 3: He did not need to use dissociation or think about
41:24
Speaker 3: using or being afraid of his mother, and she was
41:28
Speaker 3: employing really appropriate child management techniques with my assistance. So
41:34
Speaker 3: the word of caution is, while we have these kids
41:38
Speaker 3: coming in and the parents are in a state of crises,
41:41
Speaker 3: there oftentimes that families got ready to kick the kid out,
41:45
Speaker 3: pus in the hospital or somewhere else. We need to
41:49
Speaker 3: slow down and we need to really get a good
41:52
Speaker 3: history on the parents as well. Slow approach in the
41:56
Speaker 3: long run as a faster approach. So those are my
41:59
Speaker 3: words of it. Wisdom.
42:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful, I mean, Frand what you're doing here is
42:06
Speaker 1: not an interview, this is a mini workshop. Really No,
42:11
Speaker 1: you're just giving us so much incredible information. I just
42:15
Speaker 1: briefly want to touch upon a couple of things. Really,
42:18
Speaker 1: like you said, you gave us kind of two You
42:20
Speaker 1: shared with us two kind of early mistakes. One first
42:24
Speaker 1: one was with the young girl you referred to before
42:27
Speaker 1: as loosely and really you know, being cautious not to
42:30
Speaker 1: rush in. And you're talking about the importance of affect
42:34
Speaker 1: regulation and stabilization there and what one of the things
42:39
Speaker 1: that I really want to highlight, and I love what
42:42
Speaker 1: you did, and what you talked about was where you
42:45
Speaker 1: expressed this really gentle curiosity in the way you pose
42:51
Speaker 1: the question of h you know, creating this comfort room
42:54
Speaker 1: or this anger room, that technique in order to help
42:59
Speaker 1: these you know, these young kids kind of managed that
43:02
Speaker 1: arousal that that curiosity right almost being there with with
43:07
Speaker 1: the client as really an ally, not as opposed to
43:11
Speaker 1: coming from the perspective of you know, you know what's right,
43:15
Speaker 1: here's what to do.
43:16
Speaker 2: And that is such a great perspective. I love that.
43:20
Speaker 1: And the second thing you shared was you know the
43:24
Speaker 1: importance of the attachment figure and really taking a careful history. Awesome. Again,
43:31
Speaker 1: this is just an incredible information. So let's get to
43:37
Speaker 1: one of my favorite questions. You know, we've talked a
43:38
Speaker 1: little bit about what got you here, some of the challenges.
43:42
Speaker 1: I also believe and important that we know why we're
43:46
Speaker 1: doing this on a day to day basis, what's your why?
43:49
Speaker 2: Friend? You know, why you've been in this field for
43:51
Speaker 2: a long time?
43:52
Speaker 1: Why are you continuing to do this day to day?
43:57
Speaker 3: You know, your questions are so good that really are
44:00
Speaker 3: very thought provoking, and I really had to spend a
44:04
Speaker 3: long time sort of figuring that out. I'm not sure
44:06
Speaker 3: I get it all figured out. But again, there's something
44:10
Speaker 3: deep within my gut about helping children. I believe that
44:14
Speaker 3: if you are helping children, you are changing the world.
44:18
Speaker 3: That sounds a bit cliche, but I really believe that
44:21
Speaker 3: there's something very deep within me that drives me to
44:23
Speaker 3: do this. First of all, I'm very fond of children,
44:27
Speaker 3: and to help a traumatize child recover I think is
44:30
Speaker 3: the most gratifying work that I can think of doing.
44:33
Speaker 3: These children come to me so depleted of spirit. They
44:38
Speaker 3: have bags under their eyes due to a lack of
44:41
Speaker 3: sleep and constant nightmares, and the weight of the world
44:45
Speaker 3: on their small, droopy shoulders. Their minds are really fractured
44:50
Speaker 3: from their trauma, and they're in a state of confusion.
44:54
Speaker 3: They don't know where the world begins, where their body
44:58
Speaker 3: ends and the world begins. Their dissociated mind misses so
45:03
Speaker 3: much of the world, and they have been oftentime, oftentimes
45:09
Speaker 3: demoralized by missed diagnoses, by treatment regiments that have been
45:17
Speaker 3: in effective, including a lot of medications with side effects.
45:22
Speaker 1: They have.
45:24
Speaker 3: You know, even their PCSDS is often um recognized, even
45:27
Speaker 3: though it's maybe fairly recent so as I work with
45:32
Speaker 3: these kids, They'll say to me. As I begin to
45:37
Speaker 3: really work on not their behavior, but what's going on
45:40
Speaker 3: inside of them at the time of the behavior, they'll say,
45:44
Speaker 3: you're different, you really understand me. One girl very fond
45:50
Speaker 3: of her as she's an adult with a family now.
45:53
Speaker 3: We communicate occasionally. She was sixteen years old and she
45:57
Speaker 3: had the social of identities. She would probably meet the
46:03
Speaker 3: criteria about every diagnosis in the dism los of chromobility. Well,
46:09
Speaker 3: she fired me a couple times, but she kept returning
46:12
Speaker 3: to me. I asked her why, and she said, You're
46:17
Speaker 3: the only one who knows what's inside of me. And
46:22
Speaker 3: I think those sort of words that like, I'm resonating something.
46:27
Speaker 3: I'm resonating with them and they're being understood. I'm seeing
46:33
Speaker 3: the different parts of themselves and I'm accepting them, and
46:36
Speaker 3: I'm accepting the parts as a complete whole of them.
46:39
Speaker 3: It's not that I'm seeing them as different personalities, different,
46:43
Speaker 3: but I see them as a whole, as a composite
46:47
Speaker 3: of the whole self. And that gives the most sense
46:50
Speaker 3: of hope. So to understand them and help them to
46:55
Speaker 3: tell about their inner world, their trauma, and to see
46:59
Speaker 3: this relief in them. It's very gratifying. I've seen children
47:04
Speaker 3: make amazing transitions in their physical appearance of being, Like
47:09
Speaker 3: I said, don trod and Droopy's shoulders to very upright
47:14
Speaker 3: posture with a light gate in their eyes, in their walk,
47:17
Speaker 3: and they go from pale faces with bags under their eyes,
47:21
Speaker 3: they have very terrible sleep problems to sleeping well with
47:26
Speaker 3: bright faces with bright eyes, and that is just absolutely
47:31
Speaker 3: rewarding for me. And they have a chance then to
47:37
Speaker 3: utilize their potential. These kids are amazing in their abilities.
47:42
Speaker 3: I'm amazed at they're what they had to do to survive.
47:45
Speaker 3: And when they can clear their mind, when they can
47:47
Speaker 3: feel unified, and they can then begin to shine and
47:51
Speaker 3: do the things that bring them happiness and rewards, that
47:57
Speaker 3: is just a gift they get gift to me as well,
48:02
Speaker 3: and I think that really moves me to continue to
48:08
Speaker 3: continue this work. My sons keep saying, when are you
48:10
Speaker 3: going to retire? Mom? And I said, to retire? What
48:13
Speaker 3: are you talking about? So that's what's motivating me over
48:17
Speaker 3: the years.
48:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Fran it's just amazing.
48:20
Speaker 1: I mean I listening to you talk and really honestly
48:25
Speaker 1: just thinking how lucky this field is to have someone
48:29
Speaker 1: like you, and how lucky your clients are to have
48:31
Speaker 1: someone like you because your passion and sincerity and obviously
48:35
Speaker 1: your knowledge is just amazing.
48:38
Speaker 2: So welcome. Yeah.
48:40
Speaker 1: So, you know, many of our listeners just getting into
48:43
Speaker 1: this field. Some have more experience. You know, again, you've
48:46
Speaker 1: been doing this for a while. What advice would you
48:52
Speaker 1: have for those of us, maybe again, who are just
48:56
Speaker 1: getting into this field, who are scared to get into
48:58
Speaker 1: this field?
49:00
Speaker 2: What would you say?
49:02
Speaker 3: I would say, first, learn all that you can about
49:05
Speaker 3: trauma and association, go to conferences. Don't give up on
49:11
Speaker 3: these kids. There's an answer. Their behavior has some meaning.
49:15
Speaker 3: It's up to us to figure out what the meaning
49:17
Speaker 3: is to help guide them. So learn all you can,
49:21
Speaker 3: and then I suggest that they see consultation on a
49:25
Speaker 3: regular basis with a seasoned specialist in dissociation who can
49:29
Speaker 3: provide support, education, and guidance to them. It's tough work.
49:36
Speaker 3: It is very tough work, and you can kind of
49:39
Speaker 3: get into this work and lose sort of a perspective
49:43
Speaker 3: and it's hard to get it to figure out what
49:46
Speaker 3: you're doing because it's so complex. You're treating children on
49:50
Speaker 3: a child a dissociative child's mind on so many different levels.
49:54
Speaker 3: So it's good to see consultation on a regular basis,
49:58
Speaker 3: and then suggest that they engage in caregivers, engage the
50:03
Speaker 3: caregivers and helping them to help their children. That this
50:08
Speaker 3: is not just treating the child, as treating the caregivers
50:12
Speaker 3: as an important component of the treatment of the child
50:16
Speaker 3: by building that attachment. And then of course taking good
50:21
Speaker 3: care of oneself and having fun doing things that you
50:25
Speaker 3: enjoy doing. And that is really important to have that
50:29
Speaker 3: balance in your life.
50:31
Speaker 1: So okay, well said, So learn all you can about
50:36
Speaker 1: trauma's association. You know, you talked about not giving up
50:39
Speaker 1: on these kids and really about the challenge of this field,
50:42
Speaker 1: I think, which is so true. Seek regular consultation, you know,
50:48
Speaker 1: And also I really liked you mentioned, you know, engage
50:52
Speaker 1: those caregivers for a number of reasons, so that they
50:55
Speaker 1: can help the kids and also as a kind of
50:58
Speaker 1: foundation for attachment or self care. Frand what two books
51:04
Speaker 1: can you share? They don't have to be trauma related,
51:06
Speaker 1: but things are books that maybe you have had a
51:08
Speaker 1: major impact on who you are or even the work
51:11
Speaker 1: you've done.
51:12
Speaker 3: Well, there are two current books and then there's a
51:14
Speaker 3: third that hopefully will be mine coming out next year.
51:18
Speaker 3: But the two current books.
51:20
Speaker 2: One is.
51:22
Speaker 3: Sander Whalen has edited a book called Dissociation and Traumatized
51:27
Speaker 3: Children and ALESNS Theory and Clinical Interventions. Sander and I
51:32
Speaker 3: were co chairs of the CHAT Adolescent Committee of the
51:36
Speaker 3: International Society for the Study of Trauma Association and many
51:40
Speaker 3: of our committee members contributed chapter to this book. This
51:44
Speaker 3: is a book that describes one case in really deep details,
51:50
Speaker 3: so a clinician can really see the process of treatment
51:54
Speaker 3: and recovery. The other book is by Joyce Selberg, and
51:58
Speaker 3: it's a wonderful book. It's called The Child Survivor, Healing
52:03
Speaker 3: Developmental Trauma and Dissociation, and she writes like poetry. She's
52:10
Speaker 3: got an amazing ability to enter into the child's life.
52:13
Speaker 3: Joy and I have consulted and collaborated and shared a
52:17
Speaker 3: lot of trainings together, and she's really quite a giant
52:21
Speaker 3: and a kindred spirit in the field with me. And
52:25
Speaker 3: then next year I will have a book out called
52:29
Speaker 3: Healing the Fractured Child, Assessing and Treating dissocial children are
52:33
Speaker 3: dissocitive youth, I should say.
52:36
Speaker 2: So, all right, So three books so.
52:40
Speaker 1: Adrianna Silberg's Child Survivor and then Sandra Wellen's book. Will
52:45
Speaker 1: have both of those on the show notes page at
52:49
Speaker 1: West Coast Trauma Project dot com. Hit on the podcast
52:53
Speaker 1: tab and friends page will come right up. And of
52:57
Speaker 1: course your book, we're looking forward to that. Do you
53:00
Speaker 1: have a link for that? Is there or that's just
53:03
Speaker 1: completely just not out.
53:04
Speaker 3: Yet not out yet? Yeah, sometime later in twenty fifteen.
53:10
Speaker 3: It's in the last last stages of the writing.
53:13
Speaker 1: Awesome, So, Fran, what's the best way to get in
53:17
Speaker 1: contact with you? If anyone wants to touch base with you?
53:19
Speaker 3: Well, I have an email Fran Waters USA at gmail
53:26
Speaker 3: dot com. They can look on my website if they like,
53:29
Speaker 3: and link with me through my website. That's Waters Counseling
53:34
Speaker 3: and Training dot com.
53:37
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's email friend Waters USA at Gmail and
53:41
Speaker 1: the website again.
53:42
Speaker 2: We'll have links for that. Fran.
53:44
Speaker 1: You. I mean, I said it again, really just so inspiring.
53:50
Speaker 1: I mean, this is why I'm doing this. It's just amazing,
53:53
Speaker 1: you know. For me, it's so inspiring. I wanted to
53:56
Speaker 1: help out the clinicians, but I'm just sitting over here going,
53:59
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Again, this really was a mini workshop
54:04
Speaker 1: in trauma and association.
54:07
Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for taking the
54:09
Speaker 2: time to do this.
54:10
Speaker 3: Thank you guys, it was really a pleasure. I really
54:13
Speaker 3: thought provoking questions that made me sit and reflect, which
54:16
Speaker 3: I oftentimes don't do. So thank you so much.
54:20
Speaker 2: Oh, you're welcome. All right, we will talk soon, Okay.
54:22
Speaker 3: Thanks you A Bucke