Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise

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Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

0:00
Speaker 1: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop. When you're on
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Speaker 1: the road, when you're on the go.
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Speaker 2: Juicy Scoop is the show to know.
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Speaker 3: She talks Hollywood tales for real life.
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Speaker 2: Mr. Saving Serial Data and Serial Sisters.
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Speaker 1: You'll be addicted and addicted.
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Speaker 4: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
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Speaker 2: Listen in, listen up. Woo, woo.
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Speaker 1: Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well,
0:34
Speaker 1: I have a real juicy show today. We're going to
0:36
Speaker 1: cover some juicy crimes and I love my guest, but
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Speaker 1: I know you want me to get into the valley,
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Speaker 1: what's going on. And I, because we did such a
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Speaker 1: full show today, I'm going to cover the valley and
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Speaker 1: the inside scoop that I have about some of the players.
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Speaker 1: Cause you know, I'm one of the valley girls. I
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Speaker 1: am going to do that on my Friday Patreon. So
1:00
Speaker 1: you go to HeatherMcDowell.net and you click on Patreon and
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Speaker 1: you'll get that along with all the most personal stuff
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Speaker 1: about my life. So let's get into it. Hello and
1:10
Speaker 1: welcome to Juicy Scoop. Today we're going to get into
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Speaker 1: some of your juiciest crimes that you guys have been
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Speaker 1: talking about that I've been talking about. And I have
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Speaker 1: an expert, yes, because you tell me, you don't know
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Speaker 1: what you're talking about, Heather, sometimes with these crimes. But
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Speaker 1: I love them, and that's why I love having someone
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Speaker 1: who really is an expert. And please welcome Annie Elise
1:33
Speaker 1: from your YouTube show.
1:35
Speaker 2: It's hard to say, Serialistly, YouTube and podcast.
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Speaker 1: Serial, serious, great show. I've been a guest on your show. And.
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Speaker 1: And I'm so excited to have you here because I
1:49
Speaker 1: am obsessed with the Karen Reid case. And it's one
1:52
Speaker 1: of those that I've covered on my Juicy Crimes, which
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Speaker 1: I do on Patreon, and I've covered it here. And
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Speaker 1: I love all the different theories. And I've tried to
2:01
Speaker 1: cast her of what the show would be, the movie
2:05
Speaker 1: that'll be about her life.
2:07
Speaker 2: Who do you think it'll be?
2:07
Speaker 1: Oh, well, I thought of someone last night that I
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Speaker 1: think would be really good.
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Speaker 2: Who?
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Speaker 1: Jessica Biel.
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Speaker 2: That is a good one. Do you think she could
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Speaker 2: do a Boston accent?
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Speaker 1: I think she's a really good actress. So I think
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Speaker 1: if she wanted to. Of course, we could also go with,
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Speaker 1: let me go to Karen Reid. We could also go,
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Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't have to be the exact look.
2:28
Speaker 1: And it doesn't have to be someone who's brunette. It
2:30
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be someone who kind of has the
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Speaker 1: kind of hooded, slanted, sexy eye. I think, who's the
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Speaker 1: girl that played one drop?
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Speaker 2: Amanda Seyfried, Seyfried.
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Speaker 1: Because I think she is such a good actress, I think,
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Speaker 1: and because she embodied that character of Elizabeth Holmes, I
2:50
Speaker 1: think she could do her really well. I just know
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Speaker 1: that when you talk about, can some, could she do
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Speaker 1: an accent?
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:55
Speaker 1: There's certain actors that like, you know, can get it
2:58
Speaker 1: down and do it. I don't want Blake Lively to
3:00
Speaker 1: do her awful Boston accent from the town where she
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Speaker 1: was having an affair with Ben Affleck, allegedly. Oh my gosh. someone,
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Speaker 1: I just saw a clip recently of, um, someone posted
3:13
Speaker 1: of Reese Witherspoon and they were like, I think she's
3:16
Speaker 1: talking about her friend, Jennifer Garner. Cause she was like
3:20
Speaker 1: being starkey. Like she was doing like a roast or something.
3:23
Speaker 1: And she was like, and when you send nudes to
3:26
Speaker 1: your married boyfriend, don't include your face. And everyone was like,
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Speaker 1: I think that's, Because do you see how Jennifer Garner
3:33
Speaker 1: recently did some posts? This is how I talk to
3:34
Speaker 1: Blake Lively. Like, everything's just coming out.
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Speaker 2: I know. There's also been the new information I just
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Speaker 2: saw this weekend.
3:40
Speaker 1: We can talk a little bit about that. We'll get
3:42
Speaker 1: into Karen.
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Speaker 2: Here's the real crime.
3:43
Speaker 1: No, I have some new information, too. So go about
3:47
Speaker 1: Justin and Blake. Okay.
3:48
Speaker 2: So what I had heard this weekend is that they
3:50
Speaker 2: had her company she created.
3:52
Speaker 1: Yes.
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Speaker 2: The Van City, which is Ryan's, and hers was like Tars, whatever, Tarzana, something.
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Speaker 3: Yes.
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Speaker 1: And how.
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Speaker 2: They were saying that the affair did for sure start
4:01
Speaker 2: during the Green Lantern and that that's when the company
4:03
Speaker 2: was created. And it was like a hybrid of the
4:05
Speaker 2: name and all of this stuff just kind of, again, illustrating.
4:08
Speaker 1: Allegedly.
4:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, allegedly illustrating all of the shadiness. Itching, burning, soreness.
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4:33
Speaker 1: The other part of that whole thing is that it
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Speaker 1: was that company that they said, this company made this
4:41
Speaker 1: weird lawsuit that then was able to have that publicist go,
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Speaker 1: oh my God, I'm being sued. Okay, here's all the
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Speaker 1: text messages. Because the Justin Baldoni side never understood how
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Speaker 1: this even began. And now they're realizing that that company,
5:01
Speaker 1: whatever you said, Van?
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Speaker 2: It's like Tarzan, some weird thing.
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Speaker 1: Sent out this thing, this frivolous lawsuit that then got
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Speaker 1: those text messages. But then from there, they surmised, oh
5:16
Speaker 1: my God, there was a smear campaign against us, against Blake.
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Speaker 1: from Justin Baldoni's side. And according to people that are
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Speaker 1: talking to the Justin Baldoni people, they now, they were
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Speaker 1: so blindsided, Justin, and so confused from the beginning of
5:33
Speaker 1: when she first did the lawsuit, then the New York
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Speaker 1: Times article. And now they believe in their research that
5:42
Speaker 1: some of the bad press and videos that they were
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Speaker 1: getting from her supposedly being rude on set and whatever
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Speaker 1: it was, really came from from DV victims, domestic violence victims,
5:55
Speaker 1: who were unhappy with her, the way she promoted the movie,
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Speaker 1: and they were fans of Colleen who wrote the book.
6:03
Speaker 1: And it's them who got, who were doing the kind of,
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Speaker 1: getting out the bad stories about Blake and it was
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Speaker 1: never Justin and his team which the one of the
6:15
Speaker 1: things I find fascinating about this whole thing is all
6:18
Speaker 1: of that the bots the spirit campaigns how it comes
6:21
Speaker 1: about how it can roll how when you're the recipient
6:24
Speaker 1: of it it seems much larger than than it really
6:27
Speaker 1: is why sometimes you should probably not acknowledge it and
6:31
Speaker 1: let it go Because I always said, I forgot about
6:34
Speaker 1: the bad press by the time the New York Times
6:36
Speaker 1: article came out. I'd forgotten all about it.
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Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And it tracks if other people were
6:41
Speaker 2: responsible for it. Because I remember when I saw the movie,
6:44
Speaker 2: I saw it with my sister. I had read the
6:45
Speaker 2: book and I myself was like, this is horrible. The
6:49
Speaker 2: way they're portraying this is completely wrong. They didn't even
6:51
Speaker 2: stay true to the book. So I could see where
6:53
Speaker 2: people were getting angry about that and how it was spoken.
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Speaker 2: But to your point, yeah, you just ride the wave
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Speaker 2: of the bad press because it's going to be in
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Speaker 2: the rear view mirror before you know it. Just like,
7:01
Speaker 2: Don't get sucked up. And now look at what's happening.
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Speaker 1: And now, according to what's out there, is yes, the
7:10
Speaker 1: depositions are coming. And Taylor Swift will have to do it. Which,
7:15
Speaker 1: I mean, that can end a friendship.
7:17
Speaker 5: Yeah.
7:18
Speaker 1: Where you're like, I have to... I mean, anything that's like,
7:22
Speaker 1: turn over your text messages will make everybody's butthole cleanse. Like,
7:26
Speaker 1: it is just... Anything like that is like, what? I...
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Speaker 1: How far back do we have to go? Like, what
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Speaker 1: do you mean?
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Speaker 6: What did I say?
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Speaker 2: I would never want my text messages out there. Nobody
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Speaker 2: hack me, please. Nobody hack me.
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, yeah. It's just like, what the hell?
7:41
Speaker 4: Yeah.
7:41
Speaker 1: It's crazy. Anyway, so let's get into Karen Reid, who
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Speaker 1: will not be played by Blake Lively.
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Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.
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Speaker 1: She is a juicy scooper.
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Speaker 2: Karen Reid is?
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Speaker 1: Yes.
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Speaker 2: Ah, okay.
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Speaker 1: Somebody I know met her. Can't say who met her. But,
8:00
Speaker 1: so I want to give her case justice.
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Speaker 6: Yep.
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Speaker 1: And I have said, this is, why don't you, since
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Speaker 1: you're the expert, why don't you, to the people that
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Speaker 1: might still be confused of what this case is about,
8:13
Speaker 1: why don't you explain a little bit about it?
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Speaker 2: Okay. So Karen Reed is a 44-year-old woman from Massachusetts,
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Speaker 2: and she's accused of hitting her Boston cop boyfriend, John O'Keefe.
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Speaker 2: with her car while she was under the influence. And
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Speaker 2: then it ultimately resulted in his death. This was back
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Speaker 2: in January of 2022. And so they had gone out
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Speaker 2: drinking that night with a bunch of other cop friends.
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Speaker 2: They went from bar to bar, consumed a fair amount
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Speaker 2: of alcohol. And then towards the end of the night,
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Speaker 2: one of the women that she was with said, oh,
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Speaker 2: we're all going to go back to my sister's house,
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Speaker 2: who's also married to a Boston cop. And we're going
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Speaker 2: to kind of have the after party keep going. So
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Speaker 2: they go to the house, and according to Karen, she
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Speaker 2: pulls up. They'd never been to that house before, so
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Speaker 2: she wanted to make sure that they were welcome. And
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Speaker 2: so John got out of the car. He was going
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Speaker 2: to go pop his head in and be like, hey,
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Speaker 2: is it cool if we're here? And then, like, come
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Speaker 2: back out and get Karen. They had obviously been drinking,
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Speaker 2: so he goes in, and she says he doesn't come
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Speaker 2: back out. So she just increasingly is getting irritated and
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Speaker 2: then ends up just being like, F John, I'm going
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Speaker 2: back home to his house. Then she wakes up around
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Speaker 2: four in the morning. He's still not home. And so
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Speaker 2: she starts panicking. She calls her friend, Jen McCabe, who
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Speaker 2: was the one who invited them to that house. And
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Speaker 2: she's like, where's John? Where's John? Like, have you seen him?
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Speaker 2: Nobody has seen him. Does that girl.
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Speaker 1: So that girl was just... That girl was the sister-in-law
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Speaker 1: of the owner of the house?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, her sister's... Yeah, so the sister-in-law of the owner.
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Speaker 1: And was she able to... At that point, did that
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Speaker 1: girl answer the phone?
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Speaker 2: The sister-in-law?
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Speaker 1: At 4 a.m.? Yeah, and.
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Speaker 2: So that is where it gets interesting. She never called
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Speaker 2: her sister.
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Speaker 1: Okay.
9:52
Speaker 2: When they got back to that house, after they ran
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Speaker 2: they went to john's house then they came back then.
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Speaker 1: And then she gets like two friends right to come
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Speaker 1: with her to go carry and go back to the
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Speaker 1: house and they go back to the house she sees
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Speaker 1: john she's in the snow in the snow jumps out
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Speaker 1: of the car she's like that's him that's him she
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Speaker 1: goes tries to start warming him up getting hit like
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Speaker 1: doing cpr they're in front of the house which is
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Speaker 1: jen's sister who lives in there they just found a
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Speaker 1: dead body on the She doesn't even go up, knock
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Speaker 1: on the door to.
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Speaker 2: Make sure her sister's okay. Her sister's husband, who's a
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Speaker 2: first responder, a trained cop, doesn't come out.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so wait. Just so I can. So Karen gets
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Speaker 1: her friend Jen, whose sister lives in the house. They
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Speaker 1: hop in the car with Karen first thing in the morning, 4.30
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Speaker 1: in the morning, 5 in the morning. to go back
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Speaker 1: to the house, and that's where Karen, who is still
10:44
Speaker 1: behind the wheel, right? She's driving or is somebody else driving?
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Speaker 2: So at first she drove to Jen's, and then their
10:49
Speaker 2: friend Carrie met up as well. Okay. They said, let's
10:52
Speaker 2: go check John's house again, even though that's where Karen
10:54
Speaker 2: just came from. They're like, maybe you didn't see him.
10:56
Speaker 2: Maybe he came home and he was in another room.
10:58
Speaker 1: Okay.
10:58
Speaker 2: So they get back to John's. He's not there. So
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Speaker 2: at that point they're like, okay, let's go to the
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Speaker 2: Albert family home. Let's go see if we can find
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Speaker 2: him or if we can see anything on the way.
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Speaker 2: Maybe he was hit by a snowplow driver. Maybe something happened.
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Speaker 2: So then they all drive back. Karen's not driving at
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Speaker 2: that point. She's in the backseat. Carrie's the one driving.
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Speaker 1: Freaking out.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Just freaking out. And she's like, could I have hit him?
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Speaker 2: Did I hit him? Trying to figure out what had happened.
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Speaker 1: Okay. So then they get to the house. She sees
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Speaker 1: her boyfriend in the snow. She tries to revive him.
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Speaker 1: They call 911.
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Speaker 2: Yes.
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Speaker 1: But nobody goes up to the house to ring the bell,
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Speaker 1: including Karen.
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Speaker 2: Including Karen. And nobody comes out.
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Speaker 1: Of the house. To see what the hell is going on.
11:39
Speaker 2: Exactly.
11:40
Speaker 1: And they're not... And there are sirens and things.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was a blizzard. So the wind was,
11:46
Speaker 2: I guess, like howling and really loud. And so they're
11:49
Speaker 2: saying they didn't really hear everything. But yeah, paramedics are coming. Karen,
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Speaker 2: you can hear here in the body cam footage. She
11:55
Speaker 2: is just screaming hysterical. So I personally don't know how
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Speaker 2: you wouldn't be able to hear that right below, you know,
12:00
Speaker 2: a window in your front yard. But nobody came out.
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Speaker 2: They never went in and knocked on the door either,
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Speaker 2: which is kind of odd. Maybe not for Karen, but
12:08
Speaker 2: certainly for the sister. I know if it was in
12:10
Speaker 2: front of my sister's house, I'd be like, somebody's dead.
12:12
Speaker 2: I need to go check on my sister, you know?
12:14
Speaker 1: Right.
12:14
Speaker 2: I'm like, I mean, obviously. Or like when you call
12:17
Speaker 2: the police, check on people in the house. Is everybody okay?
12:20
Speaker 1: You're right. Like, wouldn't you be freaked out if there's
12:22
Speaker 1: a dead body? Could everybody be dead in the house? Right.
12:25
Speaker 2: And what's so interesting is that when the police arrived
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Speaker 2: and all the first responders were on the scene, they
12:31
Speaker 2: never secured the crime scene. The police never went and
12:33
Speaker 2: knocked on the door to talk to anybody. Right. And
12:35
Speaker 2: when they started collecting evidence, they collected it in red
12:38
Speaker 2: solo cups and stop and shop bags like 7-Eleven type bags.
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Speaker 2: Like nothing was secure from the get go. It was
12:44
Speaker 2: just mishandled right from the jump.
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Speaker 1: OK, so we get to like then what happens? Why
12:53
Speaker 1: do they think? That she did it because she says
12:57
Speaker 1: it out like in a panic. I know there's like
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Speaker 1: a lot of that, like right in the moment of
13:01
Speaker 1: being like, oh my God, did I back into him somehow?
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Speaker 1: Did I not see him?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was asking, you know, could I have hit him?
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Speaker 2: Did I hit him? She had a cracked taillight, which
13:09
Speaker 2: then she pointed out to her friends. She's like, could
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Speaker 2: I have hit him? Look at my cracked taillight. Come
13:14
Speaker 2: to find out later when reviewing ring camera footage. There's
13:17
Speaker 2: actually footage of her when she's leaving John's house that
13:19
Speaker 2: morning going to look for him. She reverses. And you
13:22
Speaker 2: can see her car hit his car that was parked
13:26
Speaker 2: and hit it with her, the passenger side taillight, so
13:28
Speaker 2: hard that his entire wheel starts moving and shaking. So
13:32
Speaker 2: that could have been when she cracked the taillight when
13:34
Speaker 2: she reversed in, not from hitting him when he was,
13:37
Speaker 2: you know, out front of the house in the snow.
13:39
Speaker 2: But so they find him. He has cuts all over
13:43
Speaker 2: his arm, which we can get to in a minute,
13:46
Speaker 2: are not consistent with being hit by a car. He
13:48
Speaker 2: has a black eye. blunt force trauma on the back
13:51
Speaker 2: of his head he's bleeding and they say that he
13:54
Speaker 2: his ultimate cause of death I don't think they officially
13:56
Speaker 2: ruled it but they believe it was the blunt force
13:58
Speaker 2: trauma and then he died of hypothermia in the snow
14:01
Speaker 2: so after the they start investigating everything they end up
14:04
Speaker 2: arresting her for I believe the very first arrest it
14:07
Speaker 2: was just for manslaughter and Then they ended up increasing
14:11
Speaker 2: the charges to second-degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the
14:14
Speaker 2: scene of a crash that resulted in a death. So
14:16
Speaker 2: she first went to trial last spring.
14:18
Speaker 1: Did they ever, at that point, give her a breathalyzer?
14:24
Speaker 2: I believe there's some conflicting information. What I had gathered
14:27
Speaker 2: when we first started covering this case about a year
14:29
Speaker 2: ago is that they tested her blood alcohol level, I
14:32
Speaker 2: want to say, 24 hours later, maybe a little bit
14:35
Speaker 2: less than that. And at that point, it was at a. 08.
14:39
Speaker 2: This is all alleged, everybody. Nobody freak out. But then
14:41
Speaker 2: when they were doing the math of what it would
14:43
Speaker 2: have been at midnight the night before, it would have
14:46
Speaker 2: been like a. 19 to a. 21 or something like that.
14:50
Speaker 1: Which I believe all of it from what I've read
14:53
Speaker 1: of how many drinks they had. And I know from
14:57
Speaker 1: my sister being a criminal defense attorney that she has
15:00
Speaker 1: had clients that have gotten DUIs the next day, like
15:06
Speaker 1: going to get breakfast and things like that. When you're
15:09
Speaker 1: that drunk, even if you slept and woke up and
15:11
Speaker 1: had a cup of coffee, you could still be kind
15:13
Speaker 1: of drunk.
15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:16
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I believe she was drunk driving for sure.
15:22
Speaker 1: But it's like, okay, so then we get to the trial,
15:26
Speaker 1: the first trial.
15:27
Speaker 5: Yes.
15:28
Speaker 1: And that's where they do put all these people from
15:32
Speaker 1: the party on the stand. And let's get into the
15:35
Speaker 1: juicy stuff that's confusing but juicy. of their relationship cheating
15:43
Speaker 1: what what is the thing that where these crossover relationships
15:49
Speaker 1: happened with these cops and her and.
15:51
Speaker 2: Everybody so this is where it kind of all starts
15:53
Speaker 2: to fall apart is in this first trial because obviously
15:55
Speaker 2: at this point now the phones have been seized they're
15:58
Speaker 2: doing they're looking at everything as evidence and everybody's dirty
16:01
Speaker 2: laundry is on display so Karen had been texting with
16:06
Speaker 2: another officer, I believe he's a DEA agent. I can't
16:09
Speaker 2: remember exactly. Brian Higgins. And they had been sending very
16:13
Speaker 2: flirtatious messages back and forth in the days leading up
16:16
Speaker 2: to when they all were at the bar that night,
16:17
Speaker 2: when they were all, you know, having drinks and things
16:20
Speaker 2: like that. And she and John had a little bit of,
16:23
Speaker 2: you know, not a toxic relationship, but they would have spats.
16:26
Speaker 2: They would have issues. They even fought the morning of
16:28
Speaker 2: them all going out and having drinks that night. But
16:30
Speaker 2: then they were fine and they all met up with friends.
16:33
Speaker 2: So these text messages get released, which shows that Brian
16:36
Speaker 2: Higgins was interested in Karen, that she had exchanged some
16:40
Speaker 2: flirtatious messages with him too, but then ghosted him a
16:42
Speaker 2: few days before the night in question.
16:46
Speaker 4: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
16:49
Speaker 4: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
16:54
Speaker 4: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
17:01
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17:07
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17:16
Speaker 5: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
17:19
Speaker 5: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
17:22
Speaker 5: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
17:27
Speaker 5: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
17:29
Speaker 2: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
17:32
Speaker 6: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
17:35
Speaker 6: filed against me.
17:36
Speaker 3: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
17:38
Speaker 3: what would you do if it was given back?
17:41
Speaker 5: Where did that need come from where you thought that
17:43
Speaker 5: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
17:46
Speaker 2: He said, I have a work dad.
17:47
Speaker 5: I need a home dad.
17:48
Speaker 2: What happens next?
17:49
Speaker 1: When I came in, he started crying.
17:51
Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
17:55
Speaker 5: those hard moments that they go through.
17:57
Speaker 2: It's about what happens next. I decided to risk it all.
18:00
Speaker 2: I realized how valuable every day was.
18:02
Speaker 1: You're worth the work.
18:03
Speaker 2: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches.
18:06
Speaker 1: You can use your voice even if it's shaped.
18:08
Speaker 5: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
18:11
Speaker 5: Only one question matters. What happens next?
18:22
Speaker 1: Was Brian Higgins a completely single man when he was
18:25
Speaker 1: flirting with Karen?
18:26
Speaker 2: To my knowledge, yes. Okay. Yeah.
18:27
Speaker 1: Continue.
18:28
Speaker 2: And he was at that house, though, that night, too,
18:30
Speaker 2: and at the bars, all of that. So she ghosts him, apparently,
18:34
Speaker 2: a few days before, and then they see each other
18:36
Speaker 2: at the bars. And everybody in the footage, the CCTV
18:39
Speaker 2: footage from the bars, everybody looks happy. Everybody's getting along.
18:42
Speaker 2: But there are some people out there who theorize that
18:45
Speaker 2: Brian didn't look very happy in the footage and that
18:47
Speaker 2: he kind of looked on edge. So that's where then
18:50
Speaker 2: I think all of the conspiracies start to take flight
18:53
Speaker 2: of what really happened to John. Who could have been responsible?
18:56
Speaker 2: Was he maybe angry when they were all back at
18:58
Speaker 2: the house?
18:59
Speaker 1: Question. Of the flirty techs, to your knowledge, were they like...
19:06
Speaker 1: What was the guy that passed away? John O'Keefe. Okay.
19:09
Speaker 1: Was it like anything about John or was it just
19:12
Speaker 1: like you're cute too? Maybe we could talk. Were there
19:15
Speaker 1: any like naked photos sent? Like how... How deep was
19:19
Speaker 1: the flirtation?
19:20
Speaker 2: It wasn't, like, no sexting, to my knowledge, from what
19:23
Speaker 2: I had seen. No, like, bashing on John. More of like, oh, yeah,
19:27
Speaker 2: you've caught my eye from the beginning. Or, like, little
19:29
Speaker 2: things like that. Not innocent, but, like, not outright.
19:32
Speaker 1: Little fishing on both sides.
19:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
19:34
Speaker 1: Exactly. Okay.
19:36
Speaker 2: Okay, so then who else is the player? So then
19:38
Speaker 2: Jen McCabe also comes into the picture here. Which is
19:40
Speaker 2: her friend. This is her friend.
19:42
Speaker 1: Whose sister lives in the house.
19:44
Speaker 6: Yes.
19:44
Speaker 1: And who are the owners of the house?
19:45
Speaker 2: The Albert family.
19:47
Speaker 1: Okay. Yes. And is Mr. Albert a cop as well?
19:50
Speaker 2: Brian Albert is a former cop.
19:51
Speaker 1: Okay.
19:52
Speaker 2: Yes. And what's interesting is that Jen McCabe had a
19:56
Speaker 2: Google search at 2.27 in the morning that said how
20:00
Speaker 2: long to die in the cold. How was incorrectly spelled.
20:04
Speaker 2: It was H-O-S. But she Googles this and then John's
20:08
Speaker 2: body wasn't found until 6 a.m. So that, of course,
20:10
Speaker 2: when that got brought up in the trial, everybody's like,
20:13
Speaker 2: why would you be Googling that?
20:14
Speaker 1: And what was her answer?
20:16
Speaker 2: That she really Googled it at six when they all
20:20
Speaker 2: were at the scene and when they were trying to
20:21
Speaker 2: make sense of what had happened and that Karen had
20:23
Speaker 2: said like, you know, Google, how long does it take
20:25
Speaker 2: to die in the cold? And that the reason it
20:27
Speaker 2: was timestamped at 2.27 is because, you know, how when
20:30
Speaker 2: you open your phone, there's like old browsers in your
20:32
Speaker 2: Safari or whatever. She's like, I opened a browser from
20:35
Speaker 2: when I was searching something else at 2.27 and it
20:37
Speaker 2: just tripped, like, trigger that i.
20:39
Speaker 1: Think that's a pretty that's something that if i was
20:41
Speaker 1: in jury i'd be like i can't say that that
20:45
Speaker 1: couldn't happen i i would say that i that seems
20:49
Speaker 1: somewhat reasonable.
20:50
Speaker 2: So let me ask you this okay if that is
20:52
Speaker 2: reasonable would you ever search that and then delete that
20:55
Speaker 2: search later no because i don't even know how.
20:59
Speaker 1: To delete so she deleted this it.
21:01
Speaker 2: Shows as deleted I know. And then there were some
21:06
Speaker 2: more searches after that that did happen around 6 a.m.
21:08
Speaker 1: Okay, so what were some more searches?
21:10
Speaker 2: Just like, again, like another one of how long to
21:12
Speaker 2: die in the cold and some random things like that.
21:14
Speaker 1: From her or from other people?
21:15
Speaker 2: From her, but that all aligned with the right timeline.
21:18
Speaker 2: But then the 227 one is what stuck out. And
21:22
Speaker 2: what's also interesting with that is around that time period
21:25
Speaker 2: of 2.30 a.m., there were also two phone calls from
21:28
Speaker 2: Brian Higgins to Brian Albert, the homeowner of the house.
21:33
Speaker 2: And when they were questioned about this on the stand,
21:35
Speaker 2: They said they did not talk to each other that night,
21:37
Speaker 2: that they didn't make any phone calls. And their excuse
21:40
Speaker 2: was that they butt dialed each other by accident.
21:42
Speaker 1: So they're saying we were all at the house and
21:45
Speaker 1: they said we never saw him, right?
21:47
Speaker 5: Yeah.
21:48
Speaker 1: They said he never arrived. And then what did Brian say? Oh,
21:51
Speaker 1: then I went home and then accidentally butt dialed him
21:54
Speaker 1: once I was home and in my bed.
21:56
Speaker 2: Well, so Brian didn't go home. He went to the.
22:00
Speaker 2: Police station to move some cars because the snowplow was
22:04
Speaker 2: going to come or something like that.
22:06
Speaker 1: While he's drunk. Yeah.
22:08
Speaker 2: And they were all drunk. All these cops were drinking
22:10
Speaker 2: and driving. I mean, it's insane.
22:13
Speaker 1: Okay.
22:14
Speaker 2: So he goes, and I believe he went around 1.30
22:16
Speaker 2: to the station, give or take, to move these cars.
22:19
Speaker 2: He says that he never talked to anybody on the
22:21
Speaker 2: phone that night. He definitely didn't call Brian Albert. Yet now,
22:25
Speaker 2: and he even testified to that under oath, like, I
22:27
Speaker 2: never called anybody. Since that first trial, there is now
22:30
Speaker 2: footage of him outside of the police station at 130
22:32
Speaker 2: on the phone. And so when the first calls were
22:36
Speaker 2: brought up, they explained it away being like, oh, no,
22:38
Speaker 2: it was a butt dial. The homeowner, Brian Albert, said
22:41
Speaker 2: like he was being intimate with his wife and that.
22:44
Speaker 2: That triggered it, which is your phone in your pants. Like,
22:47
Speaker 2: I don't understand.
22:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the phone was on the bed and he
22:50
Speaker 1: rolled over while boning. And then like his butt literally
22:53
Speaker 1: did hit the phone and then it was called him.
22:55
Speaker 2: And then the other guy just coincidentally butt dialed him back.
22:58
Speaker 2: And then the phone call connected for 22 seconds.
23:01
Speaker 1: Got it.
23:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
23:02
Speaker 1: And then what was the other part I remember about
23:04
Speaker 1: someone getting rid of their phone or their SIM card?
23:08
Speaker 1: And he said, oh, I do that all the time
23:10
Speaker 1: as a DEA. agent or something.
23:12
Speaker 2: So that was Brian Higgins, the same one who had
23:14
Speaker 2: the flirtatious messages, the same one who went to move
23:17
Speaker 2: the cars that night, who butt dialed. They were going
23:20
Speaker 2: to give him formal notice, like say, I forget what
23:23
Speaker 2: the exact dates were, but if right now, if I
23:24
Speaker 2: was going to say, Heather, tomorrow, you're going to get
23:26
Speaker 2: formal notice from the police department, from all of us
23:30
Speaker 2: that you cannot destroy your phone because we're going to
23:32
Speaker 2: need to go through it as evidence. And today you
23:34
Speaker 2: break the SIM card, you break the phone, you put
23:37
Speaker 2: it in a trash bag, You drive to a military
23:39
Speaker 2: base and you put it in two different dumpsters. And
23:42
Speaker 2: then you explain it by saying, I'm a DEA agent.
23:44
Speaker 2: I have sensitive stuff on my phone.
23:48
Speaker 1: And so, but he did admit to doing in two
23:50
Speaker 1: different dumpsters and all that stuff. Why do you think
23:54
Speaker 1: he admitted to that then? I don't know.
23:56
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe he had no other choice at that point.
23:59
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure. But like, and this is where
24:02
Speaker 2: it starts to get really sticky because there's just so
24:06
Speaker 2: much reasonable doubt in this case because Even if Karen
24:09
Speaker 2: was blackout drunk and hit John, what these people are
24:13
Speaker 2: doing isn't helping themselves in any way. I mean, there's
24:16
Speaker 2: so much shadiness, all the way down to, again, the
24:19
Speaker 2: evidence collection, the Google search, the calls, all these things.
24:22
Speaker 2: And then during the first trial, there were experts, crash
24:26
Speaker 2: reconstruction experts that testified that said the wounds on John's
24:29
Speaker 2: body were not consistent with a vehicle. There even were
24:33
Speaker 2: experts who said they looked more like dog bites, dog scratches.
24:37
Speaker 2: The homeowner owned a German shepherd who conveniently was rehomed
24:41
Speaker 2: three months after John's body was found. They also redid
24:44
Speaker 2: their basement flooring, allegedly. They sold their house under value.
24:47
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just so many different things at this
24:51
Speaker 2: point that it seems people are covering up for one
24:54
Speaker 2: reason or another that it certainly makes you ask the question,
24:58
Speaker 2: is she innocent or being framed or did she do this?
25:01
Speaker 1: So when everything— and then there was also something about, like,
25:05
Speaker 1: some other thing where there was— a part of, didn't
25:11
Speaker 1: they find like a piece of the taillight glass or
25:14
Speaker 1: something in, or claimed to have found it in him?
25:18
Speaker 1: I believe they're- And they think that was planted or something?
25:20
Speaker 2: The taillight in general, it's alleged that it was planted
25:24
Speaker 2: because when they first arrived on the scene that morning
25:26
Speaker 2: at 6 a.m., they did two searches. They did one
25:28
Speaker 2: when they first arrived and then they came back later
25:30
Speaker 2: that day and did another search where they used a
25:33
Speaker 2: leaf blower to move the snow and kind of get
25:36
Speaker 2: things around it. And when they did that, this is
25:38
Speaker 2: how much they were drinking too, right? John had a
25:40
Speaker 2: cocktail glass that they took with them from the bar.
25:43
Speaker 2: And so when he was in the snow, they found
25:46
Speaker 2: clear pieces of the cocktail glass on the snow, which
25:48
Speaker 2: is very difficult to see, right?
25:50
Speaker 1: Right.
25:50
Speaker 2: But they were able to find that. They didn't see
25:52
Speaker 2: any red taillight, no pieces of taillight for two searches.
25:56
Speaker 2: Then Karen's car was brought into the Sally Port for evidence.
26:00
Speaker 2: And this is a whole other thing which I'll go into,
26:02
Speaker 2: but it was brought in. Later, after that, hours later,
26:05
Speaker 2: when they went back out for the third search with
26:07
Speaker 2: the cert team, they found pieces of taillight. So the
26:11
Speaker 2: allegation is, okay, well, how did you not see it
26:13
Speaker 2: for two searches, but you found clear glass and you
26:15
Speaker 2: didn't see any red against the snow?
26:17
Speaker 1: So they think once her car was brought in, maybe
26:19
Speaker 1: they took a couple little pieces of the already broken
26:22
Speaker 1: taillight and threw that in the snow or said they
26:24
Speaker 1: got it from the snow.
26:25
Speaker 2: Yes. And part of the reason for that as well
26:28
Speaker 2: is because there's footage of her car in the Sallyport,
26:31
Speaker 2: which is where they were checking it all for evidence.
26:34
Speaker 2: And they said, you know, you can see right here
26:36
Speaker 2: in this footage, nobody goes near her taillight. Nobody's trying
26:39
Speaker 2: to like mess with it. Nobody's shattering it more or
26:41
Speaker 2: taking pieces. It's right here in the footage. But then
26:45
Speaker 2: upon closer look, the footage was completely inverted, mirrored. So
26:49
Speaker 2: it was like, it was as if you were looking on,
26:51
Speaker 2: you were actually looking at the driver's side taillight, not
26:54
Speaker 2: the passenger. And when you look closer on the opposite
26:56
Speaker 2: side of the car, you could see somebody next to
26:59
Speaker 2: the passenger taillight.
27:00
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
27:02
Speaker 2: It's like, there's just so... Much shadiness.
27:05
Speaker 1: So, okay. So the first trial, they go into deliberation
27:12
Speaker 1: and how quickly do they come back and say, we cannot,
27:15
Speaker 1: it's a mistrial. We need to do this again.
27:17
Speaker 2: So the jury came back. I can't remember if it
27:19
Speaker 2: was two or three times to the judge saying like,
27:22
Speaker 2: we cannot agree unanimously. And the judge kept, Judge Bev
27:25
Speaker 2: kept sending them back.
27:26
Speaker 1: Saying- And what was their thing to either say, manslaughter
27:29
Speaker 1: or second degree or innocent? What was the choices?
27:32
Speaker 2: So the total charges were second degree murder, manslaughter, and
27:37
Speaker 2: then leaving the scene of a crash that resulted.
27:39
Speaker 4: In a death.
27:39
Speaker 1: And just to remind people, second degree is you killed them,
27:43
Speaker 1: but you didn't plan it.
27:44
Speaker 2: Yes. It wasn't premeditated.
27:46
Speaker 1: And then manslaughter is like you were driving and you
27:49
Speaker 1: accidentally hit someone. And then what was the last? Or innocent.
27:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. And she had the charge of leaving the scene
27:55
Speaker 2: of a crash that resulted in a death. The problem
27:59
Speaker 2: was apparently it wasn't communicated to the jury that all
28:02
Speaker 2: of these charges could have individual verdicts. And they all
28:06
Speaker 2: were under the impression it had to be unanimous on
28:09
Speaker 2: all of them. Oh. So they kept coming back, but
28:11
Speaker 2: she kept pushing back saying, you guys have to come
28:13
Speaker 2: with a verdict. The judge?
28:14
Speaker 4: Yeah.
28:15
Speaker 2: They finally come back. They're like, we can't. And so
28:17
Speaker 2: it's declared a mistrial. After it was announced that it
28:20
Speaker 2: was a mistrial, jurors started coming forward saying, Well, no,
28:23
Speaker 2: we all unanimously agreed that she was not guilty of
28:27
Speaker 2: second degree murder being the highest charge. And one of
28:31
Speaker 2: the other charges, I think it must have been, was
28:33
Speaker 2: it leaving the scene or manslaughter? I can't remember now,
28:35
Speaker 2: but they had said, we agreed that like unanimously she
28:38
Speaker 2: was not, but because it was never announced as a
28:41
Speaker 2: verdict and read into record, technically it doesn't count. And
28:45
Speaker 2: they said they were never clear on the instructions that
28:47
Speaker 2: they could even do that. It wasn't told to them
28:49
Speaker 2: in that way. So everybody, when that came out, was like,
28:52
Speaker 2: there's no way they're going to do a retrial then
28:54
Speaker 2: at this point. Sure enough, the state announced, though, that
28:57
Speaker 2: they planned to retry her. And that's what is now
28:59
Speaker 2: beginning this week.
29:00
Speaker 1: And with this retrial, there's some things that I have
29:04
Speaker 1: seen that the judge is not allowing that I think
29:08
Speaker 1: will hurt Karen's case. Like, isn't it that they can't
29:12
Speaker 1: bring up all these... people what do you know what.
29:15
Speaker 2: Where we are yeah there's been some conversation about not
29:18
Speaker 2: allowing the arca experts the reconstruction team back their testimony
29:22
Speaker 2: back in but as of what i heard most recently
29:26
Speaker 2: it looks like they are going to be allowed in
29:27
Speaker 2: but she needs to meet with them sidebar first and
29:30
Speaker 2: see what their report was yeah before she allows it
29:33
Speaker 2: in but because there was like money exchange the state
29:36
Speaker 2: is saying that they've now like colluded and that they
29:39
Speaker 2: have more of a personal relationship. And so they're trying
29:42
Speaker 2: to pull those experts out. They also have said that
29:47
Speaker 2: they can't bring in the third-party defense during opening statements,
29:50
Speaker 2: which they already had opening statements.
29:52
Speaker 1: And the third-party defense is somebody in the house.
29:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody else did it.
29:56
Speaker 1: So now they're saying they can't or they will bring
29:58
Speaker 1: that up?
29:58
Speaker 2: They can bring it up during the trial itself, but
30:00
Speaker 2: not during opening statements, which we already had opening statements
30:03
Speaker 2: on Tuesday. And they obviously didn't bring that up.
30:05
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's not that bad.
30:06
Speaker 5: No.
30:07
Speaker 2: Okay.
30:09
Speaker 1: And I mean, how do they find a jury that
30:11
Speaker 1: isn't aware of this from the media already?
30:13
Speaker 2: It took them a lot of time to get the jury.
30:15
Speaker 2: I think over about two weeks to finally seat the
30:17
Speaker 2: full jury. And I mean, out front of that courthouse,
30:21
Speaker 2: there are hundreds of people every single day with signs,
30:25
Speaker 2: shirts saying free Karen Reid. She didn't do this or
30:29
Speaker 2: certainly there's not enough evidence to convict her. So much
30:32
Speaker 2: so that the judge had to issue a 200 foot
30:34
Speaker 2: buffer zone from the courthouse because it was becoming such
30:37
Speaker 2: a circus out there.
30:38
Speaker 1: And so wasn't there recently a show or documentary and
30:44
Speaker 1: she was interviewed in that?
30:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, Body in the Snow.
30:46
Speaker 1: And what was your opinion of that? Was that good
30:49
Speaker 1: for her defense or what do you think?
30:53
Speaker 2: I personally don't think that it– I don't think it
30:56
Speaker 2: hurt her in any way. I think a lot of
30:57
Speaker 2: people were like, why would she do this when she
30:59
Speaker 2: still is going to be going on trial? Especially because
31:02
Speaker 2: she has a little bit of a bold, abrasive personality.
31:05
Speaker 1: Right.
31:05
Speaker 2: But I think it kind of just, to me at least,
31:08
Speaker 2: showed her conviction in the fact of her saying, like,
31:10
Speaker 2: I didn't do this. Let me lay it all out
31:12
Speaker 2: for you. Let me walk you through it. And I
31:14
Speaker 2: think they did a really good job showing that. And
31:16
Speaker 2: clearly so because now it's, like, taken social media by storm.
31:19
Speaker 2: And everybody is following this case and interested in what's
31:22
Speaker 2: going on. And even when I do polls on my
31:24
Speaker 2: podcast and on YouTube, right now it's at, like, 95%
31:28
Speaker 2: think that she's innocent. So I don't know what's going
31:31
Speaker 2: to happen. But it's scheduled to go on for eight weeks.
31:35
Speaker 1: And if she was convicted of, let's just say, the
31:38
Speaker 1: lease thing, the manslaughter, do you know what she would
31:41
Speaker 1: be looking at? What kind of time?
31:43
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact time. I would imagine, I mean,
31:46
Speaker 2: maybe a few years. I don't know what the exact
31:48
Speaker 2: time would be.
31:48
Speaker 1: Was she ever presented with like, okay, you can plead
31:51
Speaker 1: to this and we don't have to go to trial?
31:53
Speaker 1: And she was like, fuck no.
31:54
Speaker 2: Not to my knowledge.
31:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because it's, I think they, you know, there's
31:59
Speaker 1: people in the town that have written, you know, and
32:01
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, this is like a problem with, you know,
32:04
Speaker 1: corrupt and You know, something went down. Let's take it
32:07
Speaker 1: to the grave. Let's, you know. So where does it
32:11
Speaker 1: leave with the two friends that were originally in the car,
32:13
Speaker 1: one being the friend of the of the homeowner? Does
32:17
Speaker 1: she not talk to those girls anymore? Like, where is that?
32:20
Speaker 2: Well, Karen doesn't talk to any of them, but they
32:22
Speaker 2: all are still friendly with each other. One of them, Carrie,
32:24
Speaker 2: was actually testifying today and was on the stand. But
32:27
Speaker 2: another piece that I didn't even.
32:28
Speaker 1: Do for defense or prosecution or.
32:30
Speaker 2: The prosecution and then on cross. OK. But one of
32:33
Speaker 2: the things that's so major in this case, too, is
32:35
Speaker 2: the lead investigator of the case, Michael Proctor. He was
32:40
Speaker 2: a state trooper. He was the lead investigator. He has
32:43
Speaker 2: since been fired for misconduct during this investigation, not during
32:47
Speaker 2: anything else, but during the Karen Reed case. His text
32:50
Speaker 2: messages were pulled to where he called her a see
32:52
Speaker 2: you next Tuesday, said she should off herself, said he
32:55
Speaker 2: was looking for nudes in her phone or like didn't
32:57
Speaker 2: come across any nudes yet and like just fully disgraced.
33:01
Speaker 2: And so. He hadn't been fired during the first trial.
33:04
Speaker 2: Since that first trial, he now has been fired. So
33:07
Speaker 2: that's what the defense brought up in opening statements, too.
33:09
Speaker 2: They're like, you know, the state's not even mentioning Michael Proctor.
33:12
Speaker 2: He was their lead investigator, the state trooper. He's not
33:15
Speaker 2: even a part of the force anymore because of how
33:18
Speaker 2: poorly he handled this particular investigation and the colluding and
33:22
Speaker 2: the cover-up and everything that went in with it. And
33:24
Speaker 2: so I think that's going to be a huge win
33:26
Speaker 2: for her this go-around. Because once the jury hears that,
33:29
Speaker 2: they're going to be like, the lead investigator got fired
33:31
Speaker 2: for misconduct on this case.
33:34
Speaker 1: Getting back to the little bit of flirting with this guy,
33:37
Speaker 1: from what I remember, which intrigued me, was it sounds
33:40
Speaker 1: like he might have had some infidelity, the victim, and
33:45
Speaker 1: then so maybe this was her, you know, kind of
33:50
Speaker 1: getting back at him. There was also some talk of,
33:54
Speaker 1: you know, she was a professor, he was a cop,
33:57
Speaker 1: so there's like that little weird like Boston townie kind
34:00
Speaker 1: of a thing. Where, like, she wouldn't necessarily be in
34:06
Speaker 1: this group of, like, cops. So maybe she was slightly
34:09
Speaker 1: the outsider. Have you heard any of that?
34:12
Speaker 2: I haven't heard much of that, but I could definitely
34:14
Speaker 2: see that. And they did have a fight on a
34:16
Speaker 2: vacation that they went on around, I believe it was
34:19
Speaker 2: a New Year's Eve vacation prior to this happening. So, like,
34:21
Speaker 2: a month before, a little less than a month. And
34:25
Speaker 2: she was getting jealous on this vacation. So I could
34:27
Speaker 2: see where maybe she was trying to, like, poke the
34:29
Speaker 2: bear a little bit or, like, see what her options were, but,
34:32
Speaker 2: or just, yeah, just see if.
34:33
Speaker 1: Like, you know, yeah, whatever. So now with all that
34:38
Speaker 1: being said, what, you know, I, I'm going to tell
34:44
Speaker 1: you what my theory is.
34:45
Speaker 2: Okay.
34:46
Speaker 1: Cause there's a few, there's, he goes in and starts talking, whatever.
34:53
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, she's like pissed. Like, hello, I'm
34:57
Speaker 1: your girlfriend sitting out here in the fucking cold. Like,
35:00
Speaker 1: I don't, you know, are we really invited to this party?
35:02
Speaker 1: One of those things like, come back to the house.
35:03
Speaker 1: Then you get to like the third location and you're like,
35:05
Speaker 1: do we want to keep going? Just go in and see.
35:08
Speaker 1: And so enough time goes by or maybe not much
35:10
Speaker 1: time at all. And she just starts to go, oh,
35:13
Speaker 1: I don't even want to go in there. He's not
35:14
Speaker 1: even coming out and checking on me. So he could,
35:17
Speaker 1: I think she could have maybe only waited like three minutes,
35:20
Speaker 1: you know? And so then there's a couple of things
35:24
Speaker 1: that could happen. Either he did get in an argument
35:27
Speaker 1: with somebody that, you know, and, and, get hit, whatever,
35:31
Speaker 1: and die, and they threw him out there. Or he
35:35
Speaker 1: may have been hit and stumbled out there to see
35:38
Speaker 1: if she was still there and then saw the car
35:40
Speaker 1: wasn't there and slipped and hit his head on the
35:42
Speaker 1: snow and didn't get up. And the people in the
35:44
Speaker 1: house didn't know that he was dead, didn't cover it up.
35:50
Speaker 1: The other part is, was he also attacked by the dog?
35:55
Speaker 1: And that's why he had the marks on his hand
35:58
Speaker 1: and again then walked out To see, like, where she
36:01
Speaker 1: was or whatever.
36:02
Speaker 2: I will say one of the biggest theories that I
36:06
Speaker 2: have seen out there from everybody who's been following this case,
36:09
Speaker 2: and it's all alleged, but it's out there, is that
36:12
Speaker 2: Colin Albert, the nephew of the homeowner, was at that
36:16
Speaker 2: house and that... How old is he?
36:20
Speaker 5: Oh, gosh.
36:21
Speaker 2: Roughly. I think early 30s, maybe late 20s. Okay, not
36:24
Speaker 2: a kid. No, not a kid.
36:25
Speaker 1: Okay.
36:25
Speaker 2: But maybe a little younger. And so... I've heard that
36:29
Speaker 2: he had issues with John for reasons which I will
36:32
Speaker 2: not get into just because, again, it's all alleged.
36:34
Speaker 1: Well, what is it? Just allege the issues.
36:36
Speaker 2: That he's a drug dealer and that John was kind
36:39
Speaker 2: of onto that.
36:42
Speaker 1: The nephew might have been selling drugs and John might
36:44
Speaker 1: have known.
36:44
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so that when John got to that house
36:48
Speaker 2: that Colin didn't know that he was coming over. So
36:51
Speaker 2: then that was an altercation when he saw him. And
36:54
Speaker 2: the reason people suspect that, too, is because Colin had–
36:58
Speaker 2: all of these scrapes and blood all over his knuckles.
37:01
Speaker 2: And he says that it's from falling in the ice
37:04
Speaker 2: or on the ice rather. So the defense was going
37:06
Speaker 2: to bring Colin's name up as a third party defense.
37:09
Speaker 2: But then the judge ruled that there wasn't there was
37:11
Speaker 2: insufficient evidence to name him, you know, particular specifically him
37:16
Speaker 2: as a third party defense. But a lot of people
37:17
Speaker 2: believe that he had some involvement. And then because he
37:20
Speaker 2: is a little bit on the younger side and he's
37:22
Speaker 2: the nephew that all of these people are trying to
37:24
Speaker 2: protect another cop's family member.
37:27
Speaker 1: With the dog scratches and bites or whatever, can't they
37:31
Speaker 1: figure it out if that's canine teeth or paw scratches
37:35
Speaker 1: versus a woman's scratch?
37:37
Speaker 2: So they did have an expert from the defense who
37:39
Speaker 2: said that it was consistent with claw marks and dog bites.
37:43
Speaker 2: They tested the dog bites and it did not show
37:45
Speaker 2: dog DNA, but it did show pig DNA, which was
37:48
Speaker 2: kind of like, why the hell would this guy have
37:50
Speaker 2: pig DNA on him? And so while it's unclear why,
37:53
Speaker 2: a lot of people are like, oh, well, think of
37:54
Speaker 2: like the pig ears that you give to a German
37:56
Speaker 2: shepherd or like treats and things like that.
37:58
Speaker 1: True.
37:59
Speaker 2: But then the dog was rehomed. So any further testing
38:02
Speaker 2: or like impressions or anything like that?
38:03
Speaker 1: But can they find the dog?
38:05
Speaker 2: I don't know.
38:06
Speaker 4: Maybe.
38:06
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know where he got rehomed.
38:09
Speaker 1: Or she.
38:09
Speaker 2: Sorry, Chloe.
38:10
Speaker 1: Or they just decided. Or maybe even the defense was like,
38:13
Speaker 1: let's just throw it out there because if it doesn't match.
38:15
Speaker 2: It's enough reasonable doubt.
38:16
Speaker 6: Right.
38:17
Speaker 1: If it doesn't match, then what do we do if
38:18
Speaker 1: it doesn't match? And that's maybe not how we want to.
38:21
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea how she's paying for this defense?
38:24
Speaker 2: They've started raising a lot of money. I believe most
38:27
Speaker 2: of her team is working pro bono at this point.
38:29
Speaker 2: But they do have a defense fund, which when I
38:31
Speaker 2: saw yesterday, it was like over 800 grand at this point.
38:35
Speaker 1: Wow. So, you know, the other thing is it still
38:41
Speaker 1: is possible. I mean, it still is possible. Or do
38:45
Speaker 1: you think it's not possible that she accidentally backed up?
38:48
Speaker 1: Like he came out. She was like, oh, fuck this.
38:50
Speaker 1: Didn't see him come out. backed up, hit him, and
38:53
Speaker 1: then left.
38:55
Speaker 2: I think it's definitely possible.
38:56
Speaker 1: Could it be possible that he went in there, had
39:00
Speaker 1: this altercation with a fucking crazy dog, and nobody else,
39:05
Speaker 1: and was like, went, was like, fuck it, I'm not
39:07
Speaker 1: staying here. What the fuck? Take care of your dog
39:09
Speaker 1: next time. Walked out, and just as he was walking out,
39:14
Speaker 1: she had lost her patience and still hit him.
39:18
Speaker 2: Maybe, but I guess my hang up with that is
39:21
Speaker 2: that It would make sense because of how much she
39:23
Speaker 2: had been drinking and to not remember it. But with
39:26
Speaker 2: the injuries not being consistent with being hit by a vehicle,
39:29
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would explain that.
39:30
Speaker 1: Like the punched eye.
39:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the black eye, the blunt force trauma
39:33
Speaker 2: on the back of his head, the stuff on his
39:35
Speaker 2: arm not being consistent.
39:36
Speaker 1: The blunt force trauma on the back of the head
39:38
Speaker 1: I do think could be consistent with being hit and
39:40
Speaker 1: going fast down on the back of hard ice. Yeah,
39:44
Speaker 1: like flying. Yeah, or a driveway or whatever.
39:47
Speaker 2: But the black eye.
39:50
Speaker 1: And then sometimes, I mean, when I fainted on stage,
39:55
Speaker 1: like within 24 hours, I had two black eyes. And
39:59
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, my, like, why do I have
40:02
Speaker 1: black eyes? I didn't follow my face. And they said,
40:04
Speaker 1: when you hit your head really hard, it can happen.
40:07
Speaker 1: So sometimes, like, you know, or like, I was like, oh,
40:11
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know. So then I was like, that
40:13
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense. But if there was, were there two?
40:15
Speaker 1: Were there one?
40:16
Speaker 2: I think two. Two. I mean, when I had first
40:19
Speaker 2: heard about this case, in my mind, I was like, well,
40:21
Speaker 2: what if she had dropped him off and he was
40:22
Speaker 2: like bending over to like grab. So he dropped something
40:25
Speaker 2: and he was bending something bending over and like she
40:27
Speaker 2: hit him while he was bent over. And that's what
40:29
Speaker 2: hit his head or like that's why there wasn't anything
40:32
Speaker 2: to his body here because the impact was on his
40:34
Speaker 2: head possibly. But I don't I don't know. I think
40:37
Speaker 2: there's a lot of possibilities, but.
40:40
Speaker 1: I think there's too much reasonable doubt. As a juror,
40:43
Speaker 1: I would be like, there's just not enough for me
40:45
Speaker 1: to put this girl away.
40:46
Speaker 2: Exactly. And there's just too.
40:48
Speaker 1: And it's beyond a reasonable doubt. And there's so much doubt.
40:52
Speaker 2: There's so much doubt.
40:55
Speaker 1: I think I would come back with just driving under
40:58
Speaker 1: the influence. Because she basically admitted to that. Yeah. I mean.
41:03
Speaker 1: I don't know.
41:04
Speaker 2: Can you, I guess you can. charge somebody after the
41:07
Speaker 2: fact with that? Wouldn't you be?
41:09
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Maybe you can at
41:10
Speaker 1: that point.
41:10
Speaker 2: I don't know.
41:11
Speaker 1: I mean, she's obviously suffered enough. She never, she always
41:15
Speaker 1: was out on bail. It wasn't like she had to
41:16
Speaker 1: like stay in jail during this time, right?
41:18
Speaker 5: No.
41:21
Speaker 1: I do think, I do think she kind of likes
41:23
Speaker 1: the limelight and there's nothing wrong with that.
41:25
Speaker 2: I think so too. I think that she's gained so
41:27
Speaker 2: much support from the public that she does like that.
41:30
Speaker 2: And I think she likes the, She likes her voice
41:32
Speaker 2: being heard. I think the defense teams like that as well.
41:35
Speaker 1: How soon if she gets off that she starts a podcast?
41:40
Speaker 1: I think it's about a 99% chance. You know what?
41:42
Speaker 2: She actually is already doing one. No, I'm just kidding.
41:48
Speaker 1: Maybe her co-host could be Gypsy Rose.
41:50
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
41:51
Speaker 1: Who else?
41:52
Speaker 2: Definitely a podcast or like a TV special, something. I mean,
41:56
Speaker 2: there's already TV specials.
41:57
Speaker 1: Right. What about The Real Housewives of Boston?
42:00
Speaker 2: That would be a good one.
42:02
Speaker 1: Could she be on that?
42:03
Speaker 2: I think, well, I mean, she's definitely, if she gets
42:05
Speaker 2: out of this.
42:06
Speaker 1: She's going to be like the leper in Boston.
42:09
Speaker 2: Because all of Boston's police force is against her.
42:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what about all these people that are for her?
42:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
42:16
Speaker 1: This is what they're going to do. They're going to
42:17
Speaker 1: cast Real Housewives of Boston. She's going to be on it.
42:21
Speaker 1: And then there's also going to be a woman who's,
42:24
Speaker 1: it won't be her current husband, but her ex-husband was
42:26
Speaker 1: a cop. And so they kind of form an alliance together.
42:30
Speaker 1: But then there's another woman that, you know, is an attorney.
42:34
Speaker 1: And she's like, you know, but now she was an attorney.
42:37
Speaker 2: She's an attorney.
42:38
Speaker 1: But now she's like, it's a lot easier being an influencer.
42:41
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be an influencer. But she says
42:43
Speaker 1: little snide remarks about legal things. And we're off to
42:48
Speaker 1: the races.
42:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.
42:49
Speaker 1: You're welcome, Andy Cohen.
42:51
Speaker 2: I also like it for a Lifetime movie.
42:53
Speaker 1: For a movie.
42:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
42:54
Speaker 1: But come on.
42:56
Speaker 2: We need a Boston Real Housewives franchise for sure. Get
42:59
Speaker 2: rid of New York. Go to Boston.
43:01
Speaker 1: And there you go. I like it. Could be real good. Well, okay,
43:05
Speaker 1: so the trial just started. Do we have any idea
43:08
Speaker 1: how long, any prediction of like how many days this
43:12
Speaker 1: might be or anything?
43:13
Speaker 2: It's slated to be about eight weeks.
43:15
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
43:16
Speaker 5: Yeah.
43:17
Speaker 1: Okay. God, I mean, it's pretty terrifying because traditionally, in
43:23
Speaker 1: my experience and my knowledge, is a mistrial, like another
43:29
Speaker 1: second trial, seems to benefit the prosecution.
43:32
Speaker 2: It does statistically if it goes to second trial it
43:35
Speaker 2: benefits the prosecution but i will say opening statements is
43:39
Speaker 2: usually what impacts the jury the most and the opening
43:42
Speaker 2: statements this week the defense crushed it and the state
43:46
Speaker 2: was like so boring they did it from like a
43:49
Speaker 2: paramedics point of view it was just not engaging not
43:52
Speaker 2: compelling and then the defense came out swinging to where
43:54
Speaker 2: if i was on the jury hearing those opening statements.
43:56
Speaker 1: I What was the, in a nutshell, what was the
44:00
Speaker 1: defense opening statement?
44:01
Speaker 2: Pointing out all of the inconsistencies, the Google search, the
44:04
Speaker 2: phone being destroyed, Michael Proctor being dismissed and fired for
44:07
Speaker 2: the misconduct, all of these different things, the experts who
44:10
Speaker 2: had testified that it wasn't a collision that caused the injuries.
44:15
Speaker 2: I mean, just everything in a nutshell summarized, almost like
44:18
Speaker 2: the reel that you saw on my Instagram. And they
44:23
Speaker 2: just came out swinging and it was such a rock
44:25
Speaker 2: solid opening statement.
44:28
Speaker 1: Great. Do you think that it would be a different
44:30
Speaker 1: fascination if she wasn't an attractive brunette? If she wasn't attractive.
44:37
Speaker 2: I think it would still be fascinating because from what
44:39
Speaker 2: I like, I feel like a lot of the public
44:41
Speaker 2: doesn't like her because of her attitude.
44:43
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It can be both. It can
44:45
Speaker 1: be both. Like I've asked my sister, you know, you know,
44:51
Speaker 1: how much goes into telling your client what to wear,
44:54
Speaker 1: how much makeup to wear, you know, And one thing
44:57
Speaker 1: she specifically said, like, yeah, like big blown up lips
45:01
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It's not good.
45:03
Speaker 5: Yeah.
45:04
Speaker 2: Well, yeah. Remember.
45:04
Speaker 1: Like not good.
45:05
Speaker 2: Remember Jodi Arias and she put on like the little
45:07
Speaker 2: glasses and she tried to like sex herself down a lot.
45:10
Speaker 1: Right. And then, yeah. Or, you know, the Menendez brothers,
45:15
Speaker 1: you know, a second trial or something.
45:19
Speaker 5: Yeah.
45:19
Speaker 1: Doing this or doing the I think the first trial
45:21
Speaker 1: they did the sweaters and the second trial they didn't
45:23
Speaker 1: or something. Because they were like, you're too old for
45:26
Speaker 1: the sweaters. But, like, yeah, you wanted to feel sorry
45:29
Speaker 1: for them. I mean, it all makes sense. But, like,
45:32
Speaker 1: downplaying her looks or putting someone in a suit that's,
45:35
Speaker 1: you know, a gang member or whatever, it all goes
45:38
Speaker 1: with it. It appears like she's, you know, just staying
45:42
Speaker 1: consistent to, like, her style and look.
45:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's in blazers, like, sheath dresses. Yeah, just buttoned
45:47
Speaker 2: up and professional.
45:48
Speaker 1: Right. But it's not like she's... Do you think there's any, like...
45:54
Speaker 1: I wonder if anyone's giving her clothes.
45:56
Speaker 2: Maybe. I haven't seen anything, but I'm sure.
45:58
Speaker 1: I mean, if I, like, work for Theory or something,
46:01
Speaker 1: I'd be like, okay.
46:02
Speaker 2: Tag me. Yeah.
46:03
Speaker 1: Or, like, you know, why not? Yeah. I mean, you're
46:06
Speaker 1: going to get a lot more out of that than
46:08
Speaker 1: just sending it to some, you know, little twat on
46:10
Speaker 1: TikTok that's going to dance around in it. Like, you
46:12
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, this is a great-looking blazer that,
46:15
Speaker 1: you know, you can get for $ 82 or whatever.
46:18
Speaker 2: Market to the millennials and the Gen Xers.
46:21
Speaker 1: I get it. Moving on to another crime. Give us
46:25
Speaker 1: the latest. This says, Judge permits bushy eyebrow testimony in
46:29
Speaker 1: the Idaho quadruple murder trial. Where are we with the
46:34
Speaker 1: horrible quadruple murder trial of the Idaho college students that
46:38
Speaker 1: were stabbed and butchered to death by possibly this guy, Brian?
46:46
Speaker 2: Brian Koberger. So the trial is scheduled to start in
46:49
Speaker 2: August of this year. Right now, they had had a
46:52
Speaker 2: gag order on the case, but now with all these
46:54
Speaker 2: pretrial motions being filed, we're starting to get a little
46:57
Speaker 2: bit of a glimpse into what evidence they have, what's happened.
47:00
Speaker 2: So it started a few weeks ago with the 911
47:02
Speaker 2: call finally being released, which everybody, of course, had been
47:05
Speaker 2: giving the roommates shit for because they'd waited, what was it,
47:08
Speaker 2: seven hours to call 911. So we hear that call.
47:12
Speaker 2: We also start.
47:13
Speaker 1: And what is your understanding of that call? Because, I mean,
47:16
Speaker 1: I remember when it went down, and I remember I
47:19
Speaker 1: was at... A party with a mom whose daughter was
47:24
Speaker 1: friends with one of the girls. One of the two
47:30
Speaker 1: girls that survived. And, you know, how much they were
47:36
Speaker 1: going through and how horrible it was. And I was like,
47:41
Speaker 1: what was it? And I remember back then it was
47:44
Speaker 1: like they, you know... they heard something and then just
47:50
Speaker 1: like hoped that it wasn't anything big deal and went
47:52
Speaker 1: to bed and was drunk and didn't want to be
47:55
Speaker 1: nosy or interrupt or whatever. And then, so then I,
47:58
Speaker 1: then I was always confused with like, They were too
48:02
Speaker 1: scared to go upstairs, so they called a guy that
48:04
Speaker 1: lived across the street, and it was he. Like, what
48:07
Speaker 1: was that 911 call? Explain what now your understanding is.
48:10
Speaker 2: So they kind of... They were all together. It was
48:12
Speaker 2: the two surviving roommates and then the guy, Hunter. And
48:15
Speaker 2: I don't know if he lived across the street or
48:17
Speaker 2: where exactly he lived, but he did come over. And
48:19
Speaker 2: so the 911 call is pretty chaotic when you listen
48:21
Speaker 2: because they're passing the phone around to each other. They
48:24
Speaker 2: obviously are terrified as they're, like, realizing what's happening. But you...
48:30
Speaker 2: The way it's laid out, and Kaylee's father has even
48:32
Speaker 2: spoken out on this after the fact, Kaylee's one of
48:34
Speaker 2: the victims, that the girls weren't going into any of
48:38
Speaker 2: the rooms and seeing what happened. And there's a part
48:42
Speaker 2: in the call in which you can hear Hunter where
48:44
Speaker 2: it sounds like he opens the door and finally, because
48:46
Speaker 2: one of the bodies was against the door for Zanna
48:49
Speaker 2: and Ethan in that room. And that he sees what
48:52
Speaker 2: happened and you can hear his voice trembling and him
48:55
Speaker 2: yelling at the girls, get out, get out of here
48:57
Speaker 2: because he's trying to shield them. He doesn't want them
48:59
Speaker 2: to see it. So you hear the call where they're like,
49:02
Speaker 2: we're trying to figure out what's going on. She's not breathing.
49:04
Speaker 2: She's passed out. But there's still some confusion as did
49:08
Speaker 2: they not see any blood? Were they not getting into
49:10
Speaker 2: the room? How did they know she was passed out?
49:11
Speaker 2: Were they trying to get in and they could only
49:13
Speaker 2: see maybe like a crack through it? Or was it
49:16
Speaker 2: because they were banging and like she wasn't coming to
49:18
Speaker 2: the door and so they were assuming she was passed out?
49:22
Speaker 2: Because they haven't testified yet, we don't know all of
49:25
Speaker 2: that information. So everybody's ripping this 911 call apart trying
49:29
Speaker 2: to say, how would they not smell the blood? How
49:32
Speaker 2: would they not see any blood? Why would they have
49:34
Speaker 2: waited that long to call? But In my opinion, after
49:36
Speaker 2: hearing a lot of 911 calls, you can hear the
49:39
Speaker 2: sheer terror in their voices.
49:40
Speaker 1: So when they were calling each other because they're like,
49:43
Speaker 1: I saw something that's freaky.
49:44
Speaker 2: They were texting each other.
49:46
Speaker 1: Texting. Do you think it was just, you know, they
49:49
Speaker 1: were drunk too. And they were like, this is weird.
49:52
Speaker 1: This is freaky. And then just passed out, fell asleep.
49:57
Speaker 1: And then didn't wake up till 10.
49:59
Speaker 2: Well, they did wake up earlier because now their phone
50:01
Speaker 2: activity has been released and they woke up as early
50:04
Speaker 2: as 7 a.m. And they were on Instagram, on Snapchat,
50:08
Speaker 2: calling their like a phone call out to a parent,
50:10
Speaker 2: like nothing major, but definitely phone activity. My just going
50:15
Speaker 2: back to my early 20s, I think they were probably
50:18
Speaker 2: outwasted that night. They come home. They did text each
50:20
Speaker 2: other that they saw someone and they were like, it's
50:22
Speaker 2: I'm freaked out. It looked like he was wearing some
50:24
Speaker 2: sort of ski mask or something like that. But then again,
50:28
Speaker 2: they had so many people coming in and out of
50:30
Speaker 2: that house at any given moment. So I could see
50:32
Speaker 2: where if you're wasted, you're like trying to make sense
50:34
Speaker 2: of it and almost being like, I'm not going to
50:36
Speaker 2: call the police or I'm not going to freak out.
50:37
Speaker 2: Like they texted, they tried calling, I believe the surviving roommates,
50:40
Speaker 2: they didn't answer. But like then just being like, I'm
50:43
Speaker 2: probably overreacting. I'm just drunk. Like I'm going to pass
50:46
Speaker 2: out or I'm going to go to bed. Then when
50:48
Speaker 2: they wake up in the morning, whether they're still a
50:51
Speaker 2: little high or drunk or whatever it is, or hungover
50:54
Speaker 2: that you're just, you know, rotting in bed you're sitting
50:58
Speaker 2: there going on social media like checking your dms looking
51:01
Speaker 2: at your snap history not thinking like being like oh
51:03
Speaker 2: i overreacted last night right not thinking i need to
51:06
Speaker 2: get out there and check what's going on but then
51:08
Speaker 2: when they finally wake up and start moving out and
51:10
Speaker 2: like going into the house they realize that something's wrong
51:13
Speaker 2: they bring the friend.
51:14
Speaker 1: Over so quiet up there they're probably yelling hello they're
51:17
Speaker 1: probably called them they're probably like hello hello and then
51:19
Speaker 1: they invite the guy over yeah yeah.
51:22
Speaker 2: Which there's this whole group now i will say in
51:24
Speaker 2: the past Probably 14 months. I feel like everybody was
51:29
Speaker 2: pretty much in the camp, although he hasn't gone to
51:31
Speaker 2: trial and it's all alleged that Brian Koberger was the guy.
51:35
Speaker 2: Over the past 14 months, there has been a significant
51:38
Speaker 2: shift where there's this whole group of people out there.
51:41
Speaker 2: They now they call themselves or they've been dubbed the
51:43
Speaker 2: pro burgers because of his last name, where they believe
51:47
Speaker 2: he's innocent, that he's being framed by law enforcement, that
51:50
Speaker 2: it goes deeper into like drugs and this and that
51:53
Speaker 2: because Some of the victims' families were involved with drugs
51:57
Speaker 2: and things like that. And so I don't put much
52:00
Speaker 2: weight into those theories, especially now given that his Amazon
52:03
Speaker 2: history has been released.
52:04
Speaker 1: And what is that about?
52:05
Speaker 2: It shows that he bought a K-Bar knife, that he
52:07
Speaker 2: bought a knife sharpener, that he bought the sheath, that
52:10
Speaker 2: they were delivered under his name, delivered to him, but
52:14
Speaker 2: at his parents' house in Pennsylvania. But that was months
52:18
Speaker 2: and months before the murders happened. Then his browser history
52:21
Speaker 2: allegedly shows that After the murders, he went back to
52:25
Speaker 2: those listings maybe to repurchase them because he realized he
52:28
Speaker 2: lost the sheath or to see if it was going
52:31
Speaker 2: to be in his history. I think there was even
52:33
Speaker 2: recently it came out that he had tried to delete
52:38
Speaker 2: some of the purchase history as well, which I've never
52:41
Speaker 2: deleted a purchase in my Amazon history ever. So documents
52:46
Speaker 2: also show that his phone pinged on the towers near
52:49
Speaker 2: the house. in the months leading up to the crimes
52:52
Speaker 2: in late night hours as though he was stalking and
52:54
Speaker 2: casing it. So a lot of things, in my opinion,
52:57
Speaker 2: that point to this being the guy. But there are
52:59
Speaker 2: a lot of people out there now who say he's innocent,
53:02
Speaker 2: and I think they're kind of further bolstering that theory
53:05
Speaker 2: based on the questionable activity from the surviving roommates, the
53:09
Speaker 2: delay in the 911 call, which is horrible.
53:13
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, that's one thing that always, being a
53:16
Speaker 1: true crime fanatic, is when they suspect the husband, when
53:22
Speaker 1: they suspect the wife. And you get this cop and
53:25
Speaker 1: it was like, it was a small town, whatever, and
53:27
Speaker 1: the cop's like 30. And he's like, I thought the
53:31
Speaker 1: behavior was strange. I'm like, really, how many murders, how
53:35
Speaker 1: many cases have you been on where a woman slipped
53:39
Speaker 1: or drowned in the bathtub and the husband wasn't hysterically crying?
53:44
Speaker 1: What are you comparing it to? who's to say how
53:48
Speaker 1: you're supposed to act when your dog dies, when your
53:51
Speaker 1: grandma who's a hundred dies versus my wife died, but
53:55
Speaker 1: I have kids in the house and I'm just, it
53:58
Speaker 1: hasn't even hit me yet. Like all those things. And
54:01
Speaker 1: there's been so many times where like, you know, a
54:04
Speaker 1: mom was, there was a famous case of a mom.
54:08
Speaker 1: They thought that she killed her kids on a couch, um,
54:12
Speaker 1: stabbed them. And she said, someone must've come in and
54:14
Speaker 1: stabbed him. And I don't know, You know, she's where
54:18
Speaker 1: it is. But there was, you know, she was always
54:19
Speaker 1: claimed her innocence. And when it was the kids' birthdays,
54:24
Speaker 1: she went to their graves with somebody and she sprayed
54:27
Speaker 1: silly spray.
54:28
Speaker 2: Oh, Darlie.
54:29
Speaker 1: Darlie. And was like laughing. And that clip was all
54:34
Speaker 1: over the news being like, she's laughing and having fun.
54:39
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, her kids are dead. They loved
54:42
Speaker 1: silly string. That was, she went to their grave. Mm-hmm.
54:46
Speaker 1: you know, had they been cremated, then she wouldn't have
54:49
Speaker 1: had that moment. If the, if, and then someone would
54:51
Speaker 1: have been like, why would you cremate? Like, it's just
54:54
Speaker 1: all those kinds of things. So it's like, I, you know,
54:57
Speaker 1: and to think that these girls, like what I heard
54:59
Speaker 1: about the girls and I, I believe like one did it. I,
55:05
Speaker 1: maybe you don't know. Did they both leave the school?
55:07
Speaker 1: I would assume. I mean, how could you stay at
55:10
Speaker 1: the school?
55:10
Speaker 2: How could you, I mean, I think there's just so
55:12
Speaker 2: much PTSD and survivors.
55:13
Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, imagine like, how are you supposed to
55:16
Speaker 1: deal with this? I mean, you know, I mean there's survivor,
55:21
Speaker 1: survivor guilt and, and you know, people that, um, that
55:24
Speaker 1: were in the sorority house of Ted Bundy that like,
55:27
Speaker 1: like lived or was next door and weren't attacked. Like
55:31
Speaker 1: the fact that it's just, maybe they didn't live.
55:35
Speaker 3: I don't know.
55:35
Speaker 1: But I know there's people that were there and it's just, yeah,
55:39
Speaker 1: you can't, That part sucks. And the thing about the
55:43
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy sorority victim that maybe they were in the
55:46
Speaker 1: house and lived, they didn't have to open their Facebook
55:49
Speaker 1: and see that there's a new group forming. Like, they
55:52
Speaker 1: didn't have to see all this stuff and just be
55:56
Speaker 1: scrolling and see us possibly talking about it or whatever.
56:00
Speaker 1: And that part I just think is, like, horrible. Now,
56:03
Speaker 1: what is this bushy eyebrow thing?
56:06
Speaker 2: So... Dylan, one of the surviving roommates, the one who
56:09
Speaker 2: saw him in the hallway that night, said that all
56:12
Speaker 2: she to her recollection when she was giving her statement,
56:14
Speaker 2: all she could recall saying was bushy eyebrows. That was
56:17
Speaker 2: her term. So now they were trying to get that
56:21
Speaker 2: stricken so that they could bring that up.
56:22
Speaker 1: Yes.
56:24
Speaker 2: And they're allowing it because it's what she saw. It
56:27
Speaker 2: was her testimony. And what's so interesting, too, is he
56:30
Speaker 2: took a selfie. what was it, at 10.31 in the
56:33
Speaker 2: morning after the murders.
56:36
Speaker 1: Brian did.
56:36
Speaker 2: Yes, Brian did. Where he's in front of a shower
56:39
Speaker 2: curtain in his bathroom. He's kind of smirking, giving a
56:42
Speaker 2: thumbs up. And people are wondering, is this a proud moment?
56:45
Speaker 2: Why was he taking this selfie? Was he done cleaning up?
56:49
Speaker 2: What had happened? So they're saying that the importance of
56:53
Speaker 2: that selfie needs to be admitted as well because his
56:55
Speaker 2: eyebrows in the selfie look bushy, which then ties back
56:58
Speaker 2: to what Dylan had said. Whereas now, of course, he's probably...
57:02
Speaker 2: more groomed and trimmed and making sure he doesn't have do.
57:05
Speaker 1: You know if they have collected any like hair that
57:09
Speaker 1: is his or anything.
57:10
Speaker 2: They just have the touch dna that was on the
57:12
Speaker 2: button of the sheath they there hasn't been anything else
57:16
Speaker 2: released this the state feels very confident in their case
57:20
Speaker 2: so i would imagine we will find out more but
57:22
Speaker 2: as of right now it's only that piece of touch d.
57:25
Speaker 1: And where do his parents stand because i know he
57:27
Speaker 1: was in the car with his dad when they pulled
57:31
Speaker 1: him over And arrested him, right?
57:33
Speaker 2: No. What was the story then? They were going on
57:36
Speaker 2: a cross-country trip back to Pennsylvania, and they got stopped
57:39
Speaker 2: for a traffic violation.
57:40
Speaker 1: Oh, and they had that cam footage, but they didn't
57:42
Speaker 1: know it was him yet, right? Oh.
57:45
Speaker 2: But then they started watching the parents' house while he
57:48
Speaker 2: was there in Pennsylvania, and that's when he was throwing
57:50
Speaker 2: things away in the neighbor's bins, putting things into Ziploc bags,
57:54
Speaker 2: wearing gloves, detailing the car.
57:56
Speaker 1: So that's the whole time when we were like, who
57:58
Speaker 1: did it, who did it, who did it? And they
58:00
Speaker 1: were like, you know, these cops don't know. These are
58:04
Speaker 1: Keystone cops. They don't know what they're doing. That's another
58:07
Speaker 1: thing I think people don't realize, that they have to
58:10
Speaker 1: keep their cards close to them. They can't share all
58:13
Speaker 1: this stuff because there's so many sleuths. There's so many,
58:16
Speaker 1: you know, content creators, real reporters, people that are, you know,
58:20
Speaker 1: doing their own reporting, which I love too. But that
58:24
Speaker 1: can screw up that investigation. So they were on to him.
58:29
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, weren't they?
58:30
Speaker 2: I think it was within a few weeks after the murders, yeah.
58:33
Speaker 2: They started figuring things out and they had pulled different
58:37
Speaker 2: traffic cams and things like that and.
58:39
Speaker 1: Started piecing it all together. And saw the white car, yeah.
58:43
Speaker 1: And so we don't know where his parents stand. Are they.
58:46
Speaker 2: They're in his corner.
58:47
Speaker 1: Oh, they are? They are. Are they paying for the defense?
58:51
Speaker 1: I don't know.
58:51
Speaker 3: I think.
58:52
Speaker 2: I want to say that she's a public defender, if
58:54
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong. I'd have to
58:57
Speaker 2: double check on that. And Taylor.
58:58
Speaker 5: But.
58:59
Speaker 2: What's interesting is they're supportive of him. They want to
59:02
Speaker 2: be there at the trial. And one of the hearings
59:05
Speaker 2: and motions that's been filed recently has been because the
59:08
Speaker 2: state is listing his parents on the witness list which
59:11
Speaker 2: would then mean that they can't sit through the trial
59:13
Speaker 2: until they go and testify so that their testimony won't
59:16
Speaker 2: be tainted in any way and so that they you
59:18
Speaker 2: know just to keep it pure so now they're they
59:21
Speaker 2: the judge has ruled okay You can have them on
59:23
Speaker 2: the witness list, but you need to put them like
59:25
Speaker 2: earlier at the trial so that then they can be
59:28
Speaker 2: there for support of Brian for the balance or for
59:30
Speaker 2: the majority of it.
59:32
Speaker 1: What I always think is so crazy that, you know,
59:35
Speaker 1: I've asked about it. I don't know that anybody else
59:36
Speaker 1: has really asked about it. But when I had Kim Goldman,
59:40
Speaker 1: the sister of Ron Goldman, I said, you know, I've
59:43
Speaker 1: never really interviewed someone that's been in such a like
59:46
Speaker 1: a high profile trial for so long. I'm like, do
59:49
Speaker 1: you ever find yourself in the bathroom with like OJ's daughter?
59:53
Speaker 1: And she's like, yes.
59:55
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
59:57
Speaker 1: Like, it just, that's what I can't imagine. Like, they're
1:00:00
Speaker 1: at this courthouse. Like, his parents, his mom might be
1:00:04
Speaker 1: in the ladies' room with one of the victim's mothers.
1:00:09
Speaker 2: Or even the surviving roommate.
1:00:11
Speaker 1: Right.
1:00:11
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:00:13
Speaker 2: I know. It's weird to think about.
1:00:15
Speaker 1: It's just so, ugh. So he's saying I'm innocent.
1:00:20
Speaker 2: He's saying he's innocent. They've also now requested that the
1:00:23
Speaker 2: words sociopath and psychopath not be used during the trial,
1:00:27
Speaker 2: which because it's technically a medical diagnosis, they did agree
1:00:31
Speaker 2: to that. So they said he can be referred to
1:00:33
Speaker 2: as a murderer because that's what he's been charged with,
1:00:35
Speaker 2: but they can't use the other terms. They also have,
1:00:39
Speaker 2: what else is going on with that? They... are bringing
1:00:42
Speaker 2: in his autism diagnosis and as a factor, the defense
1:00:46
Speaker 2: is bringing it in to explain the social behavior.
1:00:48
Speaker 1: Why he's odd. Well, I think that's a good, I
1:00:54
Speaker 1: would use everything too.
1:00:55
Speaker 2: I think they're going to use everything they possibly can. Yeah.
1:00:58
Speaker 1: Socially awkward and this and that and strange or being
1:01:00
Speaker 1: obsessed or about one thing or another. Um, Just to
1:01:04
Speaker 1: put any kind of doubt, but it sounds like the
1:01:07
Speaker 1: physical evidence is what's going to seal the deal.
1:01:10
Speaker 2: The DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence
1:01:13
Speaker 2: that they have. Everything else is pretty circumstantial. However, it's
1:01:17
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that is circumstantial, like the phone pings,
1:01:20
Speaker 2: the car. One of the things, too, that people thought
1:01:23
Speaker 2: early on was that there was a particular target in
1:01:26
Speaker 2: the house. That was my personal opinion. It still is
1:01:28
Speaker 2: to this day. I think that... one of the girls
1:01:31
Speaker 2: upstairs was the target, which I don't know.
1:01:33
Speaker 1: And wasn't that the girl, like, wasn't there, she worked
1:01:36
Speaker 1: at a Greek restaurant and he also frequented the Greek restaurant?
1:01:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. So there was speculation that that's how he first was,
1:01:43
Speaker 2: you know, became fixated or saw her and was exposed
1:01:46
Speaker 2: to her. Then there was talk of him following her
1:01:49
Speaker 2: on Instagram and things like that. But now experts have
1:01:52
Speaker 2: said that they've gone through all the digital and forensic
1:01:55
Speaker 2: information that there's no digital connection to him or any
1:01:59
Speaker 2: of the victims, which That, of course, doesn't mean anything, right?
1:02:03
Speaker 2: Usually good serial killers or murderers in general wouldn't have
1:02:06
Speaker 2: a connection. They would pick a random target in a
1:02:08
Speaker 2: lot of cases. So I don't think that that necessarily
1:02:11
Speaker 2: means anything. But they have scraped Venmo history, social media,
1:02:15
Speaker 2: any sort of digital footprint where he could have had
1:02:18
Speaker 2: any connection to them. And they're saying that there is
1:02:20
Speaker 2: no known connection.
1:02:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do think that helps the defense because
1:02:24
Speaker 1: I think people always want to know why.
1:02:27
Speaker 2: Right. The motive.
1:02:27
Speaker 5: The motive.
1:02:28
Speaker 1: You know, if they believe that a man killed his wife,
1:02:31
Speaker 1: it's because he had a girlfriend that he wanted to
1:02:33
Speaker 1: live with. She killed her husband because there was a
1:02:36
Speaker 1: $ 2 million insurance. Like, people need, like, the defense needs
1:02:41
Speaker 1: a reason why. And just to say, oh, he was
1:02:44
Speaker 1: fascinated with, you know, murder and killing. And, I mean,
1:02:49
Speaker 1: look at us.
1:02:49
Speaker 2: I know.
1:02:50
Speaker 1: Like, I mean, we're fascinated with it. Does it mean
1:02:52
Speaker 1: that we're going to try it? Like, I mean.
1:02:54
Speaker 2: No.
1:02:54
Speaker 1: I'm just, you know, I like to always just kind
1:02:57
Speaker 1: of think, like, well.
1:02:59
Speaker 2: I think the argument is that because he was a
1:03:03
Speaker 2: criminology student, that he studied it, he did that big
1:03:06
Speaker 2: thesis with convicted murderers, that he wanted to see if
1:03:09
Speaker 2: he could get away with it. And my belief is
1:03:12
Speaker 2: that he went into that house with the intention of
1:03:14
Speaker 2: killing one person, was surprised that the friend was in bed,
1:03:18
Speaker 2: came downstairs.
1:03:19
Speaker 1: I do too. She had her friend spend the night
1:03:21
Speaker 1: in a room.
1:03:22
Speaker 2: Yep, in bed with her. He goes downstairs. He didn't
1:03:25
Speaker 2: expect anybody else to be awake. Zanna was still awake.
1:03:29
Speaker 2: She was active on TikTok. She had ordered DoorDash. I
1:03:31
Speaker 2: think that spooked him. He was kind of then doing
1:03:33
Speaker 2: this like frenzy killing. And this is just my opinion.
1:03:37
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:03:37
Speaker 2: You know?
1:03:37
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:03:38
Speaker 2: But I don't think he went into that. If it
1:03:40
Speaker 2: was him, I don't think he went into that house
1:03:42
Speaker 2: expecting to kill four people that night.
1:03:44
Speaker 1: So do you think he did know her then? I think.
1:03:48
Speaker 1: And targeted her.
1:03:49
Speaker 2: I think that maybe there's no digital connection, but I
1:03:51
Speaker 2: think that I believe he was targeting Maddie.
1:03:54
Speaker 1: It was not a random thing. Because he was, if
1:03:57
Speaker 1: you believe that it's him in the car, the car was,
1:04:01
Speaker 1: hadn't the car come around prior to that night?
1:04:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, for like a couple of months leading up to
1:04:06
Speaker 2: the murders, it had gone around, I think 23 times
1:04:09
Speaker 2: in total, it had pinged in the area between the
1:04:10
Speaker 2: hours of like 10 and one or something like that.
1:04:14
Speaker 2: And then the morning of the murders, it came in,
1:04:17
Speaker 2: kind of went in through the back roads and that
1:04:19
Speaker 2: like they had been in that area before.
1:04:21
Speaker 1: I mean, also common defense in this is always going
1:04:24
Speaker 1: to be you know, this town needed to find someone
1:04:29
Speaker 1: because otherwise they are going to be walking on eggshells
1:04:32
Speaker 1: and scared. And so they, you know, their, their marching
1:04:37
Speaker 1: orders were to find somebody. I believe he did it
1:04:41
Speaker 1: as well. Like, I feel like that, you know, but
1:04:44
Speaker 1: those are all the things that we're probably going to
1:04:45
Speaker 1: hear from the defense.
1:04:46
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:04:47
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay. Okay. Lori Vallow, world's worst mother. So she
1:04:56
Speaker 1: was representing herself in the crime of her husband who
1:05:02
Speaker 1: was shot and killed when he came to pick up
1:05:05
Speaker 1: his children for an exchange. So it was her ex-husband
1:05:10
Speaker 1: and he was shot and killed by the brother who
1:05:13
Speaker 1: claimed that he had hit him with a baseball bat,
1:05:17
Speaker 1: though there was like barely a scratch on his head
1:05:19
Speaker 1: and a baseball bat would have probably possibly killed you. Um,
1:05:24
Speaker 1: so she is in Arizona and decides, because that's where
1:05:28
Speaker 1: the crime was, she's going to represent herself. Which, when
1:05:31
Speaker 1: I talked about this briefly before, I was like, you
1:05:34
Speaker 1: know what? I kind of can't blame her.
1:05:36
Speaker 2: No, it's like a field trip.
1:05:38
Speaker 4: Right.
1:05:38
Speaker 1: And it's like, you're already, she's sentenced to life, right?
1:05:41
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. So... Fine. What do you have to lose?
1:05:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so what did, so I, she, she did, they,
1:05:49
Speaker 1: they did reach a verdict.
1:05:51
Speaker 2: Yes.
1:05:51
Speaker 1: How, how short was the deliberation?
1:05:54
Speaker 2: I think three hours. And it's also because they had
1:05:56
Speaker 2: like a mandated lunch break, I think. So I think
1:05:58
Speaker 2: it was like, it was pretty quick. I don't think
1:06:01
Speaker 2: there was a doubt in anybody's mind that she was guilty.
1:06:04
Speaker 1: And so what did you gather from this? I mean,
1:06:08
Speaker 1: I didn't really watch it, but people are like, Heather,
1:06:09
Speaker 1: you have to watch it. It's like she's playing a lawyer.
1:06:13
Speaker 1: The questions are so bizarre.
1:06:16
Speaker 2: She is such a fucking Looney Tune. Like watching it,
1:06:20
Speaker 2: it would be comical if it wasn't so offensive. People
1:06:23
Speaker 2: were dead. Right. But yeah, when one of the women
1:06:26
Speaker 2: who Charles, her former husband, had gone on a date with,
1:06:29
Speaker 2: when she took the stand, Lori was cross-examining her, asking
1:06:33
Speaker 2: her questions like, so you guys were on a date
1:06:35
Speaker 2: and just talking about me the whole time? She was
1:06:38
Speaker 2: more concerned with things like that Even when a family
1:06:40
Speaker 2: member took the stand, she's like, well, you remember all
1:06:42
Speaker 2: the green enchiladas that I made for all the family gatherings? Like,
1:06:46
Speaker 2: it's just so detached from reality of what's happening. And
1:06:51
Speaker 2: she got, she, you know, had her lawyer speak. Like,
1:06:54
Speaker 2: she knew some vocabulary to throw out there, but she
1:06:58
Speaker 2: was not good. And didn't even do a closing argument.
1:07:02
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously it's never a good idea. Like,
1:07:05
Speaker 1: I was even thinking, like, will Brian... from the Idaho
1:07:08
Speaker 1: murder crime, the suspect, will he take the stand? And
1:07:12
Speaker 1: it always seems like they rarely ever want their client
1:07:16
Speaker 1: to take the stand because they could cross-examine and everything.
1:07:19
Speaker 1: But I always think as a juror or whatever, or
1:07:25
Speaker 1: I always think if I was Karen Reed, if I was.
1:07:29
Speaker 1: But the thing about the Karen Reed case is like
1:07:32
Speaker 1: because there was this fogginess, it's like Okay, like let's
1:07:37
Speaker 1: say my husband, I woke up and my husband was
1:07:40
Speaker 1: dead next to me or whatever. And they were like,
1:07:44
Speaker 1: Heather poisoned him or something. Who knows? And I know
1:07:47
Speaker 1: I didn't. I know I didn't. I know we were
1:07:49
Speaker 1: getting along. And I was on trial. I would want
1:07:54
Speaker 1: to go on the stand and be like, I did
1:07:57
Speaker 1: not do this. I want to shout it from the rooftops.
1:07:59
Speaker 1: Of course, you've got to believe your attorneys to say
1:08:04
Speaker 1: it might be better that you don't.
1:08:05
Speaker 2: Right.
1:08:06
Speaker 1: But I always think that's like such a, a weird
1:08:10
Speaker 1: thing because if you.
1:08:12
Speaker 2: If you have conviction in it, why not take the stand?
1:08:14
Speaker 2: I think it's because if there's a very talented opposing attorney,
1:08:18
Speaker 2: it's like they can just, they can twist you up. Yeah.
1:08:21
Speaker 2: And it can go real.
1:08:22
Speaker 1: And then also you can look, because you're so emphatic,
1:08:25
Speaker 1: you can look insensitive or your, your tears could be
1:08:28
Speaker 1: fake or there's all these things that you could also be.
1:08:31
Speaker 1: Someone could also pick apart. Um, But with her, I mean,
1:08:36
Speaker 1: this story was just insanity. So I could see why
1:08:40
Speaker 1: she was like. But did she ever take the stand
1:08:44
Speaker 1: on herself?
1:08:45
Speaker 2: She didn't. And she doubled down. She still is doubling
1:08:48
Speaker 2: down with her story that she didn't do it. In
1:08:50
Speaker 2: the most recent Dateline interview, she tried to blame JJ's
1:08:54
Speaker 2: death on Tylee, her daughter. She's just sick.
1:08:57
Speaker 1: She said that maybe Tylee did it. She did?
1:09:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:09:01
Speaker 1: To the little boy?
1:09:02
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Which is like, just let your daughter rest in peace. Like,
1:09:08
Speaker 2: now you're trying to just, like, destroy her memory and
1:09:10
Speaker 2: her legacy. She's awful. And a friend of mine was
1:09:13
Speaker 2: actually covering this trial the entire time it was happening.
1:09:16
Speaker 2: And I was talking with her this morning a little bit.
1:09:18
Speaker 2: And she said that the jurors yesterday, once the verdict
1:09:21
Speaker 2: was announced, they didn't know about Tylee. They didn't know
1:09:25
Speaker 2: about JJ. They didn't know about Chad's wife, Tammy, because
1:09:28
Speaker 2: none of that was introduced in this because it's something
1:09:30
Speaker 2: completely separate. So they would then found out after the
1:09:33
Speaker 2: trial had concluded that she had been convicted of killing
1:09:36
Speaker 2: her kids and that Tammy was dead as well. And
1:09:39
Speaker 2: she said that the jurors were so shaken up that
1:09:41
Speaker 2: one of them was physically shaking, which you can imagine
1:09:44
Speaker 2: at that point, they're all going home researching the case,
1:09:46
Speaker 2: like getting caught up with it. Right. But- that had
1:09:49
Speaker 2: to be very jarring to learn all that and then
1:09:51
Speaker 2: if I was thinking when I heard that I was
1:09:53
Speaker 2: like if I was on the jury even if I
1:09:55
Speaker 2: found her guilty then hearing that after the fact I
1:09:58
Speaker 2: would probably have such a pit in my stomach being
1:10:00
Speaker 2: like thank god we got it right can you imagine
1:10:02
Speaker 2: if we like let this person go or had found
1:10:05
Speaker 2: her not guilty and you learn all these other things
1:10:07
Speaker 2: after the fact it's just such a heavy responsibility.
1:10:11
Speaker 1: In your opinion how soon if she doesn't already have
1:10:15
Speaker 1: some male pen pals writing.
1:10:18
Speaker 2: Her Oh, I'm sure she already does. I have some
1:10:20
Speaker 2: juicy scoop for you, actually.
1:10:22
Speaker 1: Give it to me.
1:10:22
Speaker 2: So a girl who used to work for me, okay,
1:10:26
Speaker 2: in the true crime circuit, who went to these trials,
1:10:29
Speaker 2: I found out that she has been messaging with Lori,
1:10:33
Speaker 2: putting money on her books, pretending to be a Mormon herself,
1:10:38
Speaker 2: that she's, like, relating to her on all sorts of levels.
1:10:41
Speaker 2: I sent her to the first Lori trial. And I
1:10:44
Speaker 2: never knew any of this. And I just found this
1:10:46
Speaker 2: out maybe two weeks ago. I was so sick to
1:10:49
Speaker 2: my stomach. Like I couldn't sleep. I was like, because
1:10:52
Speaker 2: she was started messaging her while she was covering the
1:10:54
Speaker 2: first trial. And so I don't know if it was
1:10:56
Speaker 2: like she was fangirling over her or became so fixated.
1:11:00
Speaker 2: She didn't realize like this is real life. She's not
1:11:02
Speaker 2: a celebrity because you know how people are like obsessed
1:11:04
Speaker 2: with Chris Watson stuff too.
1:11:05
Speaker 3: Right.
1:11:06
Speaker 2: But full on started like a pen pal relationship with her.
1:11:10
Speaker 1: So wait, this girl was working for you like with
1:11:13
Speaker 1: research and stuff. And so how did you, did you,
1:11:17
Speaker 1: had you already let her go before you found this out? Yeah.
1:11:20
Speaker 2: She left and works with another, um, with a different
1:11:25
Speaker 2: news company.
1:11:26
Speaker 1: Okay. Do you think it could be like a lesbian thing? No, no.
1:11:31
Speaker 2: I think it's more of, A fangirl type situation.
1:11:34
Speaker 1: And just wanting to get close.
1:11:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:11:36
Speaker 1: And just being the one that's like, I'm the closest
1:11:39
Speaker 1: to this woman.
1:11:40
Speaker 2: But she's not sharing it with anybody. That's what's so bizarre.
1:11:43
Speaker 2: She never told me that they were in contact. And
1:11:45
Speaker 2: this started while she was still working for me.
1:11:48
Speaker 1: So how do you message someone in prison?
1:11:49
Speaker 2: They have prison portals where it's almost like email. Oh.
1:11:53
Speaker 1: But not to your knowledge, has she gone to visit
1:11:56
Speaker 1: in person?
1:11:56
Speaker 2: Not to my knowledge.
1:11:58
Speaker 1: And then she gives her money for like the noodles
1:12:01
Speaker 1: or whatever.
1:12:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. And like created a whole fictitious backstory of her
1:12:07
Speaker 2: own upbringing. She's not Mormon. She said she like did
1:12:09
Speaker 2: all this research trying to relate.
1:12:11
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:12:12
Speaker 2: And just bizarre. So bizarre. And she was at this
1:12:16
Speaker 2: trial covering it too for the new company that she
1:12:19
Speaker 2: works for.
1:12:19
Speaker 1: Crazy.
1:12:20
Speaker 2: Which I'm like, do you have any integrity?
1:12:23
Speaker 1: No.
1:12:23
Speaker 2: And yeah, it goes so beyond that too because she
1:12:28
Speaker 2: has advocated to be an ally for the two kids
1:12:31
Speaker 2: that She has talked with some of the family members,
1:12:34
Speaker 2: Kay and Larry.
1:12:35
Speaker 1: The grandparents of the little boy.
1:12:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry. I think I said survivors. Meanwhile, she's messaging
1:12:41
Speaker 2: Lori and befriending her. It's so sick. It makes me sick.
1:12:47
Speaker 1: I do think there's a lot of fangirling, you know,
1:12:50
Speaker 1: with it. Why women, you know, marry the Menendez brothers
1:12:54
Speaker 1: and things like that. Okay, where do you Where do
1:12:57
Speaker 1: you land on the Menendez? Where are we now with
1:13:00
Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers and resentencing hearings and all of this?
1:13:05
Speaker 2: So I believe they had a hearing last week and
1:13:07
Speaker 2: now the next one is pushed to May to where
1:13:09
Speaker 2: they will be resentenced.
1:13:10
Speaker 1: Well, May's right around the corner.
1:13:12
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah.
1:13:14
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:13:15
Speaker 2: So that's going to happen in May. I think that
1:13:18
Speaker 2: they'll be out. And to your point, they'll probably start
1:13:20
Speaker 2: a podcast. But I think they'll be out. I feel
1:13:24
Speaker 2: like now it's like so much time has been served that...
1:13:28
Speaker 2: I don't know whether you stand on the fact that
1:13:30
Speaker 2: they should have been incarcerated this entire time, that they're
1:13:34
Speaker 2: guilty that they did this because they wanted the money,
1:13:36
Speaker 2: or if you're on the opposite side, that they were abused.
1:13:38
Speaker 2: I don't think they're a threat to the public at
1:13:40
Speaker 2: this point, so I think they probably will be resentenced
1:13:42
Speaker 2: and released. That's my guess.
1:13:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they'll get a lot of tail. And I
1:13:49
Speaker 1: don't think either of— well, maybe Eric will stick with his
1:13:53
Speaker 1: wife that he's had. It's Lyle who had Anna Menendez
1:13:59
Speaker 1: who found out he was cheating on her. Then he
1:14:01
Speaker 1: got another wife who then she found out he's cheating
1:14:04
Speaker 1: with the young English girl.
1:14:06
Speaker 2: Oh. I didn't know that.
1:14:07
Speaker 1: And now Rosie O'Donnell says she's in love with Lyle. What?
1:14:10
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:14:11
Speaker 2: Isn't Rosie O'Donnell a lesbian?
1:14:12
Speaker 1: Well, she just says she loves him. Oh. Like an
1:14:15
Speaker 1: auntie or whatever. Like the way she loved Tom Cruise
1:14:18
Speaker 1: back when she was acting like she was straight.
1:14:20
Speaker 2: I think what they should do, aside from a podcast,
1:14:22
Speaker 2: is like, The Gap should hit them up and they
1:14:24
Speaker 2: should do like a sweater campaign. They should. There's so
1:14:28
Speaker 2: many things they could do. Even like Rolex, they could
1:14:31
Speaker 2: do a thing.
1:14:32
Speaker 1: It's going to be weird because they're going to probably
1:14:35
Speaker 1: try to be like classy when they first get out,
1:14:38
Speaker 1: but they shouldn't.
1:14:39
Speaker 2: No, they should just milk it.
1:14:40
Speaker 1: They should just tap. They should just make their money.
1:14:43
Speaker 1: Tap on the frenzy when it is because if you
1:14:46
Speaker 1: wait too long, people get over it. Well, you guys, look,
1:14:49
Speaker 1: the show has already gone on. a long time, but
1:14:52
Speaker 1: of course we talked more and we got in, gotten
1:14:55
Speaker 1: deeper to the Menendez brothers. We covered Scott Peterson. We
1:14:58
Speaker 1: got into Gypsy Rose and Gypsy Rose Blanchard and also
1:15:04
Speaker 1: a crime I was unfamiliar with. We kept going and
1:15:07
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what? This really is too juicy.
1:15:10
Speaker 1: We are going to put it on the Patreon under
1:15:13
Speaker 1: the triple scoop, which is juicy crimes. So if you're
1:15:16
Speaker 1: part of that, you're going to hear that as well.
1:15:19
Speaker 1: If you're curious about Patreon and you haven't joined, change
1:15:21
Speaker 1: your life. Go to HeatherMcDawn.net and join, and you'll get
1:15:25
Speaker 1: the rest of this episode as well as my Friday
1:15:28
Speaker 1: episode this weekend. So don't miss out. Thank you so much.
1:15:32
Speaker 1: Love you. Bye.
1:15:34
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