Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #067 Jason Flom with Luis Vargas

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#067 Jason Flom with Luis Vargas · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.
0:03
Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what
0:05
Speaker 2: I mean.
0:05
Speaker 3: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
0:09
Speaker 4: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
0:11
Speaker 4: do know that everything was stacked against me.
0:14
Speaker 5: Everything like everything.
0:17
Speaker 4: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
0:22
Speaker 4: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
0:24
Speaker 4: with this. How is this possible?
0:28
Speaker 5: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
0:30
Speaker 5: that every human being should do the right thing. And
0:33
Speaker 5: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
0:35
Speaker 5: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get
0:38
Speaker 5: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
0:40
Speaker 5: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
0:44
Speaker 5: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
0:47
Speaker 5: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
0:51
Speaker 2: Our system.
0:52
Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a
0:53
Speaker 1: little ways, but it's still broken.
0:56
Speaker 5: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
1:02
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today,
1:20
Speaker 1: I have two extraordinary people as my guests. Justin Brooks,
1:26
Speaker 1: who many of you will recognize because he's a return
1:30
Speaker 1: guest on the podcast. Justin is the director of the
1:33
Speaker 1: California Innocence Project and a personal hero of mine. So Justin, welcome.
1:38
Speaker 2: Back, Thank you so much, Susan.
1:41
Speaker 1: And with him is our featured guest, who is an
1:46
Speaker 1: extraordinary person with an insane story to tell that I
1:51
Speaker 1: think we can all learn a lot from and I'm
1:54
Speaker 1: really excited to hear the whole thing as much as
2:00
Speaker 1: we can get in cause i know it's impossible to
2:03
Speaker 1: share all your saga on this one hour format. But
2:09
Speaker 1: Luis Vargas, I'm really happy to have you here. I mean,
2:12
Speaker 1: as I always say, I'm happy you're here, but i'm
2:13
Speaker 1: sorry you're here, but welcome to the show.
2:15
Speaker 3: Well, thank you very much. I am also very happy
2:18
Speaker 3: to do this, and I'm an enthusiast about what's to
2:21
Speaker 3: be the result of these type of podcasts. It's a
2:25
Speaker 3: blessing to me.
2:26
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you say that, because I think in
2:29
Speaker 1: sharing your story, the best we can hope for is
2:32
Speaker 1: that people will get a better understanding of just how
2:36
Speaker 1: flawed our justice system is, and how these mistakes can
2:40
Speaker 1: really ruin so many people's lives. And by that I
2:45
Speaker 1: mean not just yours, but all of the victims that
2:49
Speaker 1: were tragically hurt as a result of the fact that
2:54
Speaker 1: they put the wrong guy behind bars when there was
2:57
Speaker 1: a serial rapist on the loose who was out there
3:00
Speaker 1: are committing heinous acts against innocent women in California. So
3:05
Speaker 1: let's let's get right into it. Luis, Where where did
3:09
Speaker 1: you grow up? What was your childhood? Like bring us
3:12
Speaker 1: back memory, you know, like in the movies when it
3:15
Speaker 1: gets all foggy and you go back to back to
3:18
Speaker 1: the day. How where were you born and where'd you
3:20
Speaker 1: grow up?
3:22
Speaker 3: I was born in Mexico, I juan A, New Mexico. However,
3:27
Speaker 3: I migrated to California when I was about ten years old.
3:31
Speaker 3: I grew up in south central Los Angels, you know,
3:33
Speaker 3: started going to school, elementary, junior, high, high school, you know,
3:38
Speaker 3: and uh, you know that's where I basically grew up at.
3:43
Speaker 1: And was your childhood happy childhood? I mean, you know,
3:46
Speaker 1: I know I've had a lot of challenges being an immigrant.
3:48
Speaker 1: Difficulty you weren't in the in the you know, probably
3:52
Speaker 1: in those times. Growing up in the nineties in south
3:54
Speaker 1: central I'm sure it was, you know, a dangerous environment.
3:57
Speaker 1: But can you tell us a little more about that.
4:01
Speaker 3: Well dangerous it was. I mean I grew up in
4:03
Speaker 3: a single parent household, you know, and unfortunately my mother
4:06
Speaker 3: had to work two jobs to be able to to
4:10
Speaker 3: put food on our tables and keep us clothes, you know,
4:13
Speaker 3: and do all that, you know, try to provide for us.
4:15
Speaker 3: And as we grew up, it was pretty rough.
4:17
Speaker 6: It was.
4:18
Speaker 3: It was South central Los Angeles. I mean, it's well
4:20
Speaker 3: known for its crime and everything that happens around it.
4:25
Speaker 3: I started seeking, you know, outside of the home, the
4:29
Speaker 3: things that I wasn't able to get inside the home
4:31
Speaker 3: because of the fact that mother was working through jobs,
4:34
Speaker 3: not because she didn't want to give it to me,
4:36
Speaker 3: but because she was working to jobs. She halreadly ever
4:38
Speaker 3: came home. And when she came home, she came home
4:41
Speaker 3: so exhausted that she thought, I mean, she needed to
4:43
Speaker 3: get some rest in the meantime. You know, I I
4:47
Speaker 3: along with a sister, older sister and a younger brother.
4:51
Speaker 3: You know, we grew up basically not on our own,
4:53
Speaker 3: but you know, figuring things out for the most part,
4:57
Speaker 3: you know, on our own, you know. And the things
4:59
Speaker 3: that I was figuring out, you know, I was doing
5:02
Speaker 3: them by searching places where I didn't really need to be,
5:07
Speaker 3: you know, got around, got around the neighborhood, started to
5:11
Speaker 3: know a few kids, you know, groupees, and and you know,
5:15
Speaker 3: before you know it, I was growing up pretty fast.
5:19
Speaker 3: Life on a highway, as they say, you know, and
5:22
Speaker 3: it was it was pretty dramatic.
5:24
Speaker 1: And you were homeless for a period of time, is
5:26
Speaker 1: that right?
5:28
Speaker 6: I was? I was? I was.
5:29
Speaker 3: I was homeless for a period of time due to
5:32
Speaker 3: the fact that I had left home for a while.
5:35
Speaker 3: And when I left home, I was down in the
5:38
Speaker 3: San Diego area, so I was on my own. I
5:41
Speaker 3: was on my own. I was figuring things out on
5:43
Speaker 3: my own. I think about it. I mean, a teenager
5:46
Speaker 3: not really knowing, you know what latch is about, barely
5:48
Speaker 3: figuring life out, trying to make sense of things, you know,
5:51
Speaker 3: and just making doing the best he could have survived.
5:55
Speaker 3: You know, that was me.
5:57
Speaker 1: And it was at that time that you got a
5:59
Speaker 1: t too that turned out to play a very role
6:04
Speaker 1: that you could never have predicted, that really had a
6:07
Speaker 1: devastating impact on your life. Down the road. But we'll
6:11
Speaker 1: get into that further as we get along in the story.
6:15
Speaker 1: So let's let's fast forward to nineteen ninety eight. This
6:20
Speaker 1: was a time when there was a lot of crime,
6:24
Speaker 1: much worse than it is now in America. And at
6:28
Speaker 1: the time there was a serial rapist on the loose
6:31
Speaker 1: in California called the tear drop Rapist, And Justin, can
6:36
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that and what you know,
6:40
Speaker 1: what what was the whole circumstance surrounding that, you know
6:46
Speaker 1: that that time?
6:48
Speaker 2: Sure, so there was a serial rapist in Los Angeles.
6:53
Speaker 2: All of the women were Latin women Latina. They were
6:58
Speaker 2: all waiting at Buscot early in the morning, and it
7:02
Speaker 2: all occurred within a one and a half mile radius
7:06
Speaker 2: in a certain area of Los Angeles. The rapists would
7:09
Speaker 2: approach them, ask for directions, and it was a Latino man.
7:15
Speaker 2: And then all these rapes occurred. The witnesses the one
7:19
Speaker 2: defining feature, so just a tattoo was very popular during
7:23
Speaker 2: this era, those of us works of the criminal justice system.
7:26
Speaker 2: It's seen this tattoo where it's one or two tear drops,
7:30
Speaker 2: and all of the victims described their attacker that way,
7:34
Speaker 2: that it was a Latino man, that he approached them
7:36
Speaker 2: first thing in the morning at the bus stop, and
7:39
Speaker 2: that they with these attacks, and that this tattoo was
7:42
Speaker 2: on the attacker. And so it was very clear based
7:44
Speaker 2: on this very specific MO that there was one guy
7:48
Speaker 2: who was doing all these rapes. Luis ends up getting
7:53
Speaker 2: arrested and charged with three of these rapes, which when
7:57
Speaker 2: we went back in and started investigating the case, was
7:59
Speaker 2: starting with, Okay, why is this one guy charged with
8:03
Speaker 2: three of these attacks? And by the time we reviewed
8:06
Speaker 2: the case, there had been thirty five documented attacks with
8:10
Speaker 2: this exact same m O.
8:12
Speaker 1: How many of those had occurred after his arrest.
8:16
Speaker 2: So that's the crazy part of the story. We went
8:20
Speaker 2: in and we were able to use DNA to match
8:24
Speaker 2: up one of the rapes that Luise got accused of
8:28
Speaker 2: with rapes that had occurred while he was incarcerated, and
8:32
Speaker 2: in fact, one of these rapes occurred while Luis was
8:37
Speaker 2: on trial and sitting in jail. And just imagine that
8:42
Speaker 2: if if you know your client's on trial for's life
8:46
Speaker 2: for this crime and somebody else is committing the same
8:51
Speaker 2: crime in the same city, in the same area, with
8:54
Speaker 2: the exact same MO and a difficct attorney is getting
8:58
Speaker 2: up and telling the jury, you know, these three rapes
9:00
Speaker 2: all have the same amount, they're clearly done by the
9:02
Speaker 2: same guy. Well it was the same guy, and that
9:05
Speaker 2: same guy was still committing those crimes while Luise was
9:08
Speaker 2: on trial and after he went to prison.
9:10
Speaker 1: And do we know for certain that the DA had
9:13
Speaker 1: that information at that time.
9:15
Speaker 2: So what we do know is that the police department
9:19
Speaker 2: had investigated it so much to the point of that
9:22
Speaker 2: they had what was called a rape book, and they
9:25
Speaker 2: had linked all these crimes together. And they didn't widely
9:29
Speaker 2: publicize this. I don't you know, for whatever reasons they had,
9:33
Speaker 2: whether they didn't want to make people scared or create
9:36
Speaker 2: some kind of eysteria. But we do know that they
9:39
Speaker 2: were in possession of this information, that they had linked
9:42
Speaker 2: this information, and yet that information was not turned over
9:45
Speaker 2: to the defense. And as you know, it's a clear
9:48
Speaker 2: Brady violation that the government must turn over all potentially
9:53
Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence to the defense. And this was clearly exculpatory, right.
9:58
Speaker 1: I mean, this is as black and white as it
10:00
Speaker 1: can be. And meanwhile, Luis, you had alibis for at
10:04
Speaker 1: least one or more of these crimes that you were
10:07
Speaker 1: charged with. Is that right?
10:10
Speaker 6: Yes, I did. I had alabis.
10:12
Speaker 3: I mean I used to work at I used to
10:13
Speaker 3: be a manager for a Manhattan bagel store right there
10:16
Speaker 3: in North Hollywood, and I used to drive my baker
10:19
Speaker 3: even to work, sometimes at four o'clock in the morning.
10:22
Speaker 3: So one of the incidents where we did present an
10:27
Speaker 3: alabai court was not admitted because the manager at that
10:31
Speaker 3: time that was working along my side, he had written
10:34
Speaker 3: it down because the time clock machine had broken. I mean,
10:37
Speaker 3: imagine that the iron is right on the one of
10:39
Speaker 3: the one times that I really needed to have solid alabi.
10:43
Speaker 3: You know, the time clock happens to be broken, so
10:45
Speaker 3: he has to go ahead and write it down, jotted
10:48
Speaker 3: down with his his with a pen and hands. So
10:50
Speaker 3: you know, that's why it wasn't at missed. It wasn't
10:52
Speaker 3: admissible in court. But I did have several alibis, and unfortunately,
10:58
Speaker 3: you know, none of them seemed to be solid enough
11:03
Speaker 3: to be able to hold up, you know, so they
11:05
Speaker 3: still went ahead and convicted me on the just basically
11:09
Speaker 3: on hearsay.
11:10
Speaker 2: You know, well on as Jason you've talked about many
11:14
Speaker 2: times on this, So you're convicted based on the bad
11:17
Speaker 2: identifications made by these very frightened victims of this horrible crime.
11:22
Speaker 1: And these identifications were not you know, from my understanding
11:26
Speaker 1: and reading about the case, these identifications were wavering. The
11:33
Speaker 1: victims were not sure. At various times, they were you know,
11:39
Speaker 1: back and forth, and so even we know for sure,
11:43
Speaker 1: and people who listened to the show have probably heard
11:45
Speaker 1: the Jennifer Thompson Ronald Cotton episode, you know, where as
11:49
Speaker 1: she was described as the perfect witness, a woman who
11:53
Speaker 1: was you know, twenty two year old college students sober
11:57
Speaker 1: home alone and spent twenty five minutes doing nothing but
12:00
Speaker 1: sudying her attacker every detail because she was absolutely determined
12:05
Speaker 1: that she was going to memorize everything about his appearance
12:10
Speaker 1: and uh and she had time to do it, and
12:13
Speaker 1: she identified him with absolute certainty in a lineup in
12:18
Speaker 1: a muckshot book and a trial, and of course, eleven
12:22
Speaker 1: years later, tragically found out that she had been wrong,
12:27
Speaker 1: you know. And she's become a tremendous advocate as as
12:30
Speaker 1: he for eyewitness identification procedure improvements and you know, refinements
12:39
Speaker 1: and and and you know, there's just there's so many
12:41
Speaker 1: things that we need to do, and there's many things
12:43
Speaker 1: that we can do to improve that process. But in
12:45
Speaker 1: your case, Luis that it wasn't even that it wasn't
12:49
Speaker 1: even like it was a strong identification. It was you know,
12:53
Speaker 1: they were they were on the fence, and so it
12:56
Speaker 1: seemed so insane you had you had an alibi. The
13:01
Speaker 1: time clock thing is blowing my mind. And it's interesting
13:04
Speaker 1: too because I'm sure some people that are listening in
13:06
Speaker 1: La you know, maybe may may have been to your
13:09
Speaker 1: bagel store at the time. They may even know you so,
13:12
Speaker 1: but go ahead.
13:15
Speaker 3: Yeah it look it's interesting because these these descriptions that
13:20
Speaker 3: the young lady gave, you know, which I do feel
13:23
Speaker 3: very sorry that it happened to them. You know, I
13:26
Speaker 3: think they were ultimately, uh not only influenced by all
13:32
Speaker 3: the factors that were surrounding them, the fear, the stress,
13:37
Speaker 3: the weapons, the weapon that was used, the chaos, and
13:40
Speaker 3: not to mention the fact that when they were interviewed
13:44
Speaker 3: at the time that they were interviewed. I mean, I'm
13:47
Speaker 3: positive that they were influenced by the people that interviewed them,
13:52
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, how could you go from being
13:56
Speaker 3: seventy percent sure okay during a photo expect photo lineup.
14:00
Speaker 3: How could you go from being no, no, no, wait
14:03
Speaker 3: a minute, eighty five percent sure, Okay, eighty five percent
14:06
Speaker 3: sure that I'm within the six pact that you were shown,
14:10
Speaker 3: then from eighty five you go down. Talking about one
14:13
Speaker 3: of the young ladies that identified me during a photo lineup,
14:17
Speaker 3: first she said she was eighty five percent sure, then
14:20
Speaker 3: she came back and said seventy percent sure. Then ultimately
14:24
Speaker 3: during the trial, when uh, the DA went and asked
14:30
Speaker 3: for her identification, all of a sudden, lo and behold, DejaVu,
14:34
Speaker 3: you know one hundred percent sure that it was me
14:36
Speaker 3: the one, the one that attacked her. You know that
14:38
Speaker 3: is amazing to me, the way things happened like that.
14:42
Speaker 3: I mean, everything was playing out in front of me
14:43
Speaker 3: as if there was some type of motion picture. I
14:46
Speaker 3: couldn't understand it. On my mind. Was was baffled because
14:50
Speaker 3: of the things that were going on. I was so
14:52
Speaker 3: sure and so confident that I was going to win
14:55
Speaker 3: this trial because of the fact that I had nothing
14:57
Speaker 3: to do with it. I had nothing to do with it.
14:59
Speaker 3: I mean I was looking at the victims and the
15:00
Speaker 3: witnesses straight in the eyes because I wanted them so
15:03
Speaker 3: badly to identify me, not as the attacker, of course,
15:06
Speaker 3: but as a person that did not have it.
15:10
Speaker 6: No.
15:10
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I was dealt with a blow. I was deal
15:14
Speaker 3: with what at that time seeing a deadly blow because
15:18
Speaker 3: I was I was sentenced to spend the rest of my
15:20
Speaker 3: life in prison.
15:32
Speaker 1: Fifty five years to life was a sentence. And justin
15:35
Speaker 1: this case has you know, so many really terribly common
15:44
Speaker 1: earmarks of wrongful convictions, right, you have mistaken with its identification.
15:48
Speaker 1: You have exculpatory evidence that was withhold clear Brady violations
15:52
Speaker 1: in other words, in legal terms. And you also had
15:54
Speaker 1: an incompetent defense attorney who didn't call witnesses to the
15:58
Speaker 1: stand that could have and very well might have, you know,
16:03
Speaker 1: influenced the jury in a way where they would have
16:05
Speaker 1: gotten it right. Which is which is always like that,
16:08
Speaker 1: That's all that always blows my mind, Like, you know,
16:12
Speaker 1: I don't understand how someone can pass the bar and
16:15
Speaker 1: then end up as a lawyer. You have to have
16:17
Speaker 1: a you know, a certain amount of intelligence. Not easy
16:20
Speaker 1: to pass the bar, right you gotta, and and then
16:23
Speaker 1: you end up in a court room and you don't
16:25
Speaker 1: do the most basic thing that anyone who watches TV knows.
16:29
Speaker 1: Call the witnesses who can say he was at a
16:32
Speaker 1: different place, He couldn't have done this. He was making bagels,
16:36
Speaker 1: fucking bagels. I mean, Jesus Christ, he was shmearing cream
16:41
Speaker 1: cheese on the damn thing.
16:42
Speaker 6: You know.
16:42
Speaker 1: He was not raping this woman. I mean, oh my god. So,
16:46
Speaker 1: I mean, so justin, can you explain how does that
16:49
Speaker 1: even happen? Why is that a thing?
16:53
Speaker 2: I mean, well, first of all, the ID problem is
16:56
Speaker 2: really the biggest problem here. And I'll tell you something
16:59
Speaker 2: even more shocking. We are two decades later and Los
17:02
Speaker 2: Angeles is still using these procedures. Los Angeles has not
17:06
Speaker 2: changed to the best practices for eyewitness identification. And we've
17:10
Speaker 2: changed in San Diego, we've changed in Northern California, but
17:14
Speaker 2: the biggest county in the United States is still doing this.
17:17
Speaker 1: And what are these best practices? What are those best practices?
17:21
Speaker 2: So you should never use six packs. So the problems
17:25
Speaker 2: with six packs photo rays are well documented. And every
17:28
Speaker 2: study has shown that when you show a victim six photos,
17:32
Speaker 2: what their brain does is make a comparative analysis of
17:35
Speaker 2: those six and they pick out the person who most
17:38
Speaker 2: looks like the suspect. Now, it does. They may not
17:43
Speaker 2: look like the suspect very much at all, but out
17:45
Speaker 2: of those six, it's the person who most looks like it.
17:48
Speaker 2: And then they start doing these statistical analysis of you know,
17:52
Speaker 2: what's their percentage of clarity, and it's all completely meaningless.
17:56
Speaker 2: You know, there's there's no way to assess in your
17:58
Speaker 2: life what you're eighty percent or what you're sixty percent
18:01
Speaker 2: sure of, what you're one hundred percent sure of, because
18:03
Speaker 2: memory is so easily contaminated and there's so many problems
18:08
Speaker 2: with it. So the best practice is to show single photos,
18:12
Speaker 2: one at a time. And more importantly, you cannot have
18:16
Speaker 2: the officers involved in the process who know who the
18:20
Speaker 2: suspect is, because they always give off tells, and even
18:25
Speaker 2: when they don't do something stupid like take a good
18:28
Speaker 2: long look at number three, they do the kind of
18:31
Speaker 2: things that we hear in this case where the last
18:33
Speaker 2: talked about how the witness changed, how sure she was. Well,
18:37
Speaker 2: that can happen as simple as this. You pick number,
18:41
Speaker 2: you pick letter C, and the officer thinks it's letter C.
18:45
Speaker 2: So they say things like good job, okay, great, all right,
18:49
Speaker 2: we got them, and now they're one hundred percent sure
18:52
Speaker 2: they have the right person. And in rape cases you
18:55
Speaker 2: get the worst ideas because you have now a victim
18:59
Speaker 2: who's very frightened. It's gone to a lot of trauma,
19:02
Speaker 2: who desperately wants this person off the street. So they're
19:05
Speaker 2: going to go along with that because that is what
19:08
Speaker 2: their psyche wants to happen. They want to be comforted
19:11
Speaker 2: by this that they got the right person, that they're
19:14
Speaker 2: off the streets. So the problem in this country is
19:17
Speaker 2: we have no true national criminal justice policy. Only in
19:22
Speaker 2: the federal courts to the very small part of our
19:24
Speaker 2: criminal justices, and most of it's in the state courts.
19:28
Speaker 2: No one has control to change national policy, so we
19:32
Speaker 2: have to fight these battles state by state and then
19:35
Speaker 2: county by county, because for example, in Los Angeles, it's
19:39
Speaker 2: up to the District Attorney's office and the chief of
19:41
Speaker 2: police as to what procedures they use. So this is
19:45
Speaker 2: going to be a battle that's going to go on
19:46
Speaker 2: for a long time, Whereas in other countries, like I
19:49
Speaker 2: just came back from the UK. In the UK, they
19:52
Speaker 2: have national criminal justice policies that they put in place
19:55
Speaker 2: throughout the country. But we've divided our country into all
19:58
Speaker 2: these jurisdictions with all these little pockets of power, and
20:01
Speaker 2: we have cases like Louise.
20:03
Speaker 1: Right, And this is an interesting thing too, because this
20:05
Speaker 1: is not a liberal or a conservative issue, or a
20:09
Speaker 1: democratic or Republican or this, or that it should be
20:13
Speaker 1: in this case. Is so why I'm so appreciative that
20:15
Speaker 1: Louise is here, because this case screams out for all
20:21
Speaker 1: the people. And we're talking about dozens of people, women
20:25
Speaker 1: who were brutally attacked in the wake of his wrongful
20:30
Speaker 1: arrest and conviction because they stopped looking for the real
20:33
Speaker 1: guy when they got Luise. Even though these things went
20:36
Speaker 1: on and on and on. It's like, so it's or
20:39
Speaker 1: they took a beat. I mean, they must have started
20:41
Speaker 1: again at some point, but they chose to just not
20:44
Speaker 1: share that information with Louise and his team because they
20:47
Speaker 1: already had him. But they knew that this was the
20:51
Speaker 1: same guy. There was never any question. I mean, you
20:53
Speaker 1: can't have a more dynamic example of a serial a predator.
21:01
Speaker 1: I mean this guy was. I mean, it's unreal. I mean,
21:04
Speaker 1: especially in a one point six mile radius, and that
21:07
Speaker 1: would have terrified the neighborhood. I mean, but at the
21:09
Speaker 1: same time, you know what bugs me about that is
21:11
Speaker 1: that the authorities should have made this known to everyone,
21:14
Speaker 1: because what about the how would you like to be
21:16
Speaker 1: a parent of one of these kids, or a relative
21:19
Speaker 1: or anything else? And you say, wow, if I had known,
21:22
Speaker 1: I never would have let her go to the bus
21:24
Speaker 1: stop by herself until this guy.
21:26
Speaker 2: Was locked up.
21:27
Speaker 1: I mean not a chance. I mean, anyone who's listening
21:29
Speaker 1: who has a daughter, which I do, it's like you
21:34
Speaker 1: would do anything you could to protect that child. Maybe
21:36
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even let them go to school until this
21:38
Speaker 1: was resolved, But no way would you expose someone to
21:41
Speaker 1: a risk that was so incredibly high and you know
21:45
Speaker 1: where it's going to happen. And by the way, they
21:46
Speaker 1: also should have had patrols out at every bus stop
21:50
Speaker 1: for that period of time, right, I mean definitely, how
21:52
Speaker 1: long would it have taken. It's one point six miles.
21:54
Speaker 1: You would have needed just a quick map, right thing,
21:56
Speaker 1: and you could have done it. I mean, you know,
21:59
Speaker 1: it's not even I don't know. It's baffling to me,
22:02
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And of course, you know, Luis is
22:05
Speaker 1: one victim in this case, but there's so many others
22:07
Speaker 1: and it's really it's hard to wrap yourself around it.
22:12
Speaker 1: But it's why it's so important that we're doing the
22:14
Speaker 1: work that we're doing. And again, where could the disagreement be.
22:19
Speaker 1: Why would we as a society, anyone from any sort
22:22
Speaker 1: of political persuasion or any ideology and philosophy, would want
22:27
Speaker 1: to make sure that this predator, this animal, who was
22:32
Speaker 1: doing these things over and over again, would be off
22:34
Speaker 1: the streets. So in order to do that, we know,
22:37
Speaker 1: we have the information, We've had it for years. As
22:40
Speaker 1: Justin said, right, you know, we need to have what's
22:42
Speaker 1: called the double blind, which means that the person conducting,
22:46
Speaker 1: whether it's the mugshadow or the lineup or any sort
22:48
Speaker 1: of eye witness identification procedure, cannot must not know who
22:51
Speaker 1: the actual suspect is because even if they have the
22:54
Speaker 1: best intentions, they're going to say things that will influence
23:01
Speaker 1: the witness in this case, the victims or any witness
23:05
Speaker 1: to to you know, to change their opinion, and that's
23:10
Speaker 1: not a good thing. That leads to more mistakes. And
23:14
Speaker 1: at the same time, we know too that mugshots and
23:18
Speaker 1: this is the simplest thing in the world, right and
23:20
Speaker 1: it's science, It's just fucking science. Instead of having six
23:25
Speaker 1: pictures on the page you have one, and the mind
23:28
Speaker 1: works better that way. And I know I would be
23:30
Speaker 1: the world's worst witness because I'm that guy who will
23:33
Speaker 1: meet somebody and I'm embarrassed to say so. I'll meet somebody,
23:35
Speaker 1: we'll go to lunch, and then I'll run into them
23:38
Speaker 1: three days later and they're like, hey, Jason, what's happening.
23:40
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? You know what
23:42
Speaker 1: I mean? Like that, I'm like, oh God, I can't
23:44
Speaker 1: remember it. I mean, I can't remember names. I can't
23:47
Speaker 1: only remember jokes and phone numbers. But anyway, that's my problem.
23:50
Speaker 2: So most people, most people are like you though, Jason.
23:54
Speaker 2: I mean, I think human beings just really don't have
23:57
Speaker 2: that kind of capacity. And as you said, you know,
24:00
Speaker 2: the police officers are not great poker players. You know,
24:04
Speaker 2: my brother is a professional poker player. And I go
24:07
Speaker 2: watch these guys play and they wear hats and sunglasses
24:11
Speaker 2: and they look down at the table and they do
24:13
Speaker 2: anything to not give a tell of what their hand is.
24:16
Speaker 2: And these guys are professional poker players. But I imagine
24:19
Speaker 2: these police officers they're giving out all kinds of signals
24:23
Speaker 2: of who they really want to get, who the real
24:25
Speaker 2: guy is, and it's tragic the results.
24:28
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's true.
24:30
Speaker 3: Sometimes they unwinningly go ahead and give up tell tale science,
24:33
Speaker 3: I say, a good job or you know, to lead
24:35
Speaker 3: to kind of persuade the vectim at this time. But
24:39
Speaker 3: sometimes this is the scary part that sometimes they just
24:43
Speaker 3: do it for the sake of doing it because they
24:46
Speaker 3: want to close a case. I mean, it's interesting to
24:50
Speaker 3: me that at this moment, when you're talking about eyewitness identification,
24:54
Speaker 3: I was just recalling back one of the faces in
24:57
Speaker 3: my trolley and on February I think it was February sixteen,
25:00
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. Well, one of the young victims identified
25:04
Speaker 3: me in court. I mean this process. The DA at
25:07
Speaker 3: this time said that the victim took a long time
25:11
Speaker 3: to identify me because she was afraid, I mean a
25:14
Speaker 3: long time, five minutes turned it to identify someone, you know,
25:20
Speaker 3: and when she couldn't identify me because she scanned when
25:22
Speaker 3: the when the DA asked her, you know, if she'd
25:25
Speaker 3: seen me in the courtroom, can she please identify me
25:28
Speaker 3: as in what I was wearing? She asked the DA
25:32
Speaker 3: A question. She goes, I mean picture this, you got
25:34
Speaker 3: you have the whole court room. Well it was standing
25:37
Speaker 3: a standing room.
25:38
Speaker 6: You had the twelve jurors, you had.
25:40
Speaker 3: The audience, and then you had me at the defense.
25:42
Speaker 3: Of all that time, I had fired my public defender
25:45
Speaker 3: because I mean, he was doing.
25:47
Speaker 6: Such a lousy job.
25:48
Speaker 3: I was so I was so confident that was not
25:50
Speaker 3: going to get identified, that I was not going to
25:52
Speaker 3: get sentenced that on one of the occasions, went into
25:54
Speaker 3: one of our of our hearings, he went ahead and
25:57
Speaker 3: asked for another extension. I got up, shot then everything.
26:00
Speaker 3: I got up and I said, you, honor, I object,
26:02
Speaker 3: I do not want another extension. I want this to
26:05
Speaker 3: be over.
26:06
Speaker 1: Man.
26:06
Speaker 3: The bailiff rushed from the back and just grabbed my
26:08
Speaker 3: shoulders and sat me down, you know. And then when
26:10
Speaker 3: I looked at my attorney and I told him I
26:12
Speaker 3: don't want another extension, the public vender and he looked
26:15
Speaker 3: at me. I mean, he straight out screened from the
26:18
Speaker 3: top of this lunch, you're.
26:19
Speaker 6: Gonna get sentenced.
26:20
Speaker 3: And I go, no, I'm not. I didn't do these crimes, right,
26:23
Speaker 3: And the judges slapped slapped the hammer on the on
26:29
Speaker 3: the on the desk and just like order the court right.
26:34
Speaker 3: So I go, okay, fine, but I told him I
26:36
Speaker 3: do not want another extension. Well, fast forward to one
26:39
Speaker 3: of the faces in my trial. This young lady had
26:42
Speaker 3: such a hard time identifying me that she scanned when
26:46
Speaker 3: she was sold to identify the look around the courtroom
26:49
Speaker 3: and identify me. She asked the DA a question from who?
26:52
Speaker 6: From them?
26:53
Speaker 2: And let's go.
26:53
Speaker 3: She was pointing to She was pointing to.
26:55
Speaker 6: The jury, to the twelve jurors.
26:58
Speaker 3: She was asking the DA from who do I have
27:01
Speaker 3: to identify my attacker? From them? From the twelve jurors. No,
27:05
Speaker 3: that's when the DA said, no, from the whole court room.
27:07
Speaker 3: Look at the whole court room. So she scanned from
27:10
Speaker 3: left to right, very slowly, left to right, all the
27:14
Speaker 3: way from the jury to the defense table. And then
27:17
Speaker 3: as I was looking, I mean I didn't lower my
27:19
Speaker 3: head for a minute, not even a second. I looked
27:22
Speaker 3: at her straight in the eyes and hoped to God
27:24
Speaker 3: that she would say, No, that's not him, That's not
27:28
Speaker 3: the bump in the nose that I remember, that's not
27:31
Speaker 3: the clearest, the unshaven face that I remember. That's not
27:35
Speaker 3: the tear drop that I remember seeing or not seeing.
27:38
Speaker 3: She looked straight at me. I looked straight at her
27:40
Speaker 3: and that not even one fraction of a second. Later,
27:44
Speaker 3: she went ahead and scanned the room back all the
27:46
Speaker 3: way back to the jury room, to the jury where
27:49
Speaker 3: the jury was sitting, and stop hesitated, didn't say nothing.
27:54
Speaker 3: The DA once again went like, pronounced her name and said,
27:58
Speaker 3: can you please look the court room and identify the
28:01
Speaker 3: person that attacks you? Okay, this time she didn't ask
28:05
Speaker 3: can you please tell us if the person that I
28:07
Speaker 3: could he is here? This time she's saying, can you
28:10
Speaker 3: identify the person that attacked you? In other words, you
28:13
Speaker 3: know what he's definitely here or you have to do
28:15
Speaker 3: is identifying it. So now the victim is over here
28:17
Speaker 3: once again, scanning the room from left to right. I mean,
28:20
Speaker 3: they took an eternity. And she did this three times,
28:23
Speaker 3: and I'm all this time, I'm looking at her, I'm hoping,
28:25
Speaker 3: I'm praying to God to be rid of those shackles. Well,
28:30
Speaker 3: when she did this the second time, by this time,
28:32
Speaker 3: the DA asked the judge to grant her emotions. She goes,
28:35
Speaker 3: your honor, can I please move around the court room?
28:38
Speaker 3: Your honor goes like, what's the reason the DA, And
28:41
Speaker 3: I'm surprised by that time, I had a hired attorney.
28:43
Speaker 3: I'm surprised he did not object to that. But when
28:46
Speaker 3: the judge asked her what was the reason, she said,
28:49
Speaker 3: I just want to move around the court room, let
28:51
Speaker 3: her know, let my witness know that she's okay, that
28:54
Speaker 3: she's not in danger, that everything's fine, you know. So
28:57
Speaker 3: the judge goes granted. So I had an attorney that
29:01
Speaker 3: I mean, he was like well maybe at that at
29:03
Speaker 3: that time, probably a good sixty four sixties years old.
29:07
Speaker 3: Maybe he was Anglo Saxon, real tall, hair, as white
29:13
Speaker 3: as snow, and he was pretty light complexed, so light
29:18
Speaker 3: that on the heated day he could probably turn red
29:22
Speaker 3: because of the heat.
29:22
Speaker 2: Right.
29:23
Speaker 3: Well, anyways, the young the DA goes behind him. I mean,
29:27
Speaker 3: picture this in the middle of a trial where someone's
29:30
Speaker 3: life is I mean, at the precipice of being sentenced
29:35
Speaker 3: to fifty five years to life. I mean, I'm talking
29:37
Speaker 3: about my earliest chance of parole was going to be
29:40
Speaker 3: on October of twenty forty five. Could you imagine that?
29:44
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought the whole world was eating me alive. Well,
29:47
Speaker 3: the DA goes behind my attorney and stands behind him,
29:51
Speaker 3: and she goes to the young.
29:54
Speaker 6: Lady, does this look like the person that attacked it?
29:57
Speaker 3: Come on all? Was she gonna say no? Then the
30:00
Speaker 3: DA she might as well grab her little points. She
30:02
Speaker 3: pulled it out, stretched it out and fregen up me
30:05
Speaker 3: and said.
30:05
Speaker 6: Hey, this is the guy right here.
30:07
Speaker 3: Look get them you know, I mean hispanic, possibly a
30:11
Speaker 3: gang affiliated, slick hair, black, you know, comet backwards, tattoos,
30:18
Speaker 3: look looking a real good. You don't need to think long.
30:21
Speaker 6: This is the guy.
30:22
Speaker 3: She might as well have said that, because after she
30:24
Speaker 3: stood behind my attorney, she stands right, and I knew
30:26
Speaker 3: what this was going to cough. I knew what's gonna
30:29
Speaker 3: happen next. As soon as I seen her approach my attorney,
30:32
Speaker 3: I said, okay, here it comes. Here comes the shotgun blast.
30:35
Speaker 3: Because it did feel like a shotgun blast. I felt
30:38
Speaker 3: that I was taken back by all the things that
30:40
Speaker 3: were going on. I mean, they sentenced me basically, I'm
30:42
Speaker 3: nothing but the drama that was in the cours. I'm
30:44
Speaker 3: surprised the DA didn't grab tissue and took it to
30:47
Speaker 3: the victim and said, here, dry your eyes. You know,
30:49
Speaker 3: let the jury see this. You know that you're being
30:52
Speaker 3: so affected by this. I'm surprised. I did it happen
30:54
Speaker 3: because it was Hollywood. I mean, that was basically Hollywood
30:57
Speaker 3: right there. She still right behind me and said this,
31:00
Speaker 3: this looks like the person that attacked it. Come on,
31:02
Speaker 3: what was the victim going to say? Young lady? Stressed out, scared, nervous,
31:08
Speaker 3: you know, influenced by other other factors. This lady had
31:11
Speaker 3: gone from during her identification process.
31:15
Speaker 6: This lady had.
31:15
Speaker 3: Gone from a second photo lineup that they had showed her. Well,
31:20
Speaker 3: she was not sure. Now in court she had gone
31:25
Speaker 3: from not being sure to being one hundred percent certain
31:29
Speaker 3: of her identification. This happened in court after the DA
31:34
Speaker 3: stood behind me and acted as appointer and put the
31:37
Speaker 3: target on me and said.
31:39
Speaker 6: Is this the person that attacked you?
31:41
Speaker 3: Take off the ifs, do not even make it a question,
31:44
Speaker 3: because you're basically saying, this is the person that attacked you. Well,
31:47
Speaker 3: at that moment, that young lady, just at that moment,
31:50
Speaker 3: she just went ahead and said, yes, that's him. Oh
31:52
Speaker 3: my goodness, I felt that my whole world had fallen
31:55
Speaker 3: apart once again.
32:05
Speaker 1: And justin that, I mean, it sounds to me like
32:08
Speaker 1: there's no question that the judge acted improperly. Here too, right,
32:12
Speaker 1: he absolutely should have called at that point it's a mistrial,
32:16
Speaker 1: isn't it.
32:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at a certain point a judge has
32:19
Speaker 2: a responsibility to say this just doesn't pass the basic test.
32:23
Speaker 2: There's a basic rule of evidence that if evidence is
32:26
Speaker 2: more prejudicial than probative, it shouldn't be admitted in a courtroom.
32:30
Speaker 2: And if she has to look around the room three
32:32
Speaker 2: times and be prodded by the DA And as Louis said,
32:36
Speaker 2: this identification led to his entire life being taken away
32:39
Speaker 2: from him. We just can't let people get convicted in
32:43
Speaker 2: this country and go to prison based largely on emotion
32:46
Speaker 2: and bad evidence.
32:48
Speaker 1: No, that's I mean, that's bad behavior. Doesn't even begin
32:51
Speaker 1: to describe it. And you know, I want to I
32:53
Speaker 1: do want to make the point, and I make this
32:56
Speaker 1: often that you know, I'm a person who believes in
32:58
Speaker 1: a system of laws, and I think that we have
33:00
Speaker 1: a lot of very good police officers out there, a
33:03
Speaker 1: lot of very good prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, but the
33:07
Speaker 1: bad ones do just incredible amounts of damage. And this
33:13
Speaker 1: is an example of the system failing, Luis and US
33:16
Speaker 1: as a society, and the residents of la in so
33:19
Speaker 1: many different ways, and it's just it never it never
33:24
Speaker 1: ceases to blow my mind how this could go on
33:27
Speaker 1: in the country. You know, it's twenty well, this was
33:30
Speaker 1: twentieth century. Was the end of the twentieth century. I
33:32
Speaker 1: mean we're talking nineteen ninety nine in America, and this
33:35
Speaker 1: is not like and it became like a witch trial.
33:39
Speaker 1: I mean, with her standing behind you, it's like, yeah,
33:41
Speaker 1: you're done. That's it. I mean, it's just like, just
33:44
Speaker 1: draw a circle around you. I mean it's like, anyway,
33:47
Speaker 1: I can't even well, and it's La. It's not the
33:49
Speaker 1: Deep South, right, it's Los Angeles.
33:51
Speaker 2: So it happening today, and it's happening. I mean, that's
33:56
Speaker 2: the thing it's so frustrating in California is even with
33:59
Speaker 2: stories like even and in Luis's case, by the way,
34:02
Speaker 2: when we filed the habeas petition and pointed out all
34:06
Speaker 2: these inconsistencies and how the DNA from one of the
34:10
Speaker 2: cases he was charged with matched up the cases that
34:13
Speaker 2: happened when he was in prison, the District Attorney's office
34:15
Speaker 2: conceded this case and he was declared innocent. But it's again,
34:20
Speaker 2: it's sort of like and now we move on. You know,
34:23
Speaker 2: it's we have to make the changes we have to.
34:27
Speaker 2: This is what I love why I love your show
34:28
Speaker 2: so much, because your show goes back and dissects these
34:32
Speaker 2: cases and says, we can't just move on. We need
34:34
Speaker 2: to look at these cases and make the changes. And
34:37
Speaker 2: what we got to learn from Elisa's case is Los
34:39
Speaker 2: Angeles County and every county in America has to stop
34:43
Speaker 2: doing these procedures because they are victimizing the people who
34:47
Speaker 2: go to prison. They're victimizing the community and the people
34:50
Speaker 2: who have been victimized by these people, and they don't
34:53
Speaker 2: get the right person. And it's just shocking that it's
34:56
Speaker 2: still going on.
34:57
Speaker 1: I'll even take it one step further. How would you
35:00
Speaker 1: feel if you were one of the jurors and then
35:03
Speaker 1: later on you find out that you were tricked right,
35:05
Speaker 1: that you were actually tricked into making a decision that
35:10
Speaker 1: ruined the lives of Louise and some of his family members,
35:13
Speaker 1: but also that led to a you know, an outcome
35:18
Speaker 1: that was tragically predictable, which is that this serial rapist
35:23
Speaker 1: went on to commit these other horrible crimes. I mean,
35:26
Speaker 1: the jurors are in there trying to do we would
35:29
Speaker 1: hope their level best to make sure that the right
35:32
Speaker 1: outcome is reached. I think that almost anybody that goes
35:36
Speaker 1: into a jury room is you know, there'll be some
35:38
Speaker 1: people who may have some inherent biases. We try to
35:40
Speaker 1: read them out, but it doesn't always happen. But for
35:42
Speaker 1: people who are listening now, and I talk about this often,
35:46
Speaker 1: everyone who's listening is a potential juror, and someday you're
35:49
Speaker 1: going to end up getting called for jury duty. First
35:52
Speaker 1: of all, go and second of all, when you go,
35:55
Speaker 1: be woke, think about Louise, think about what happened to him.
35:59
Speaker 1: Look for those signs in the courtroom, so that if
36:02
Speaker 1: this type of stuff is going on, you're able to
36:05
Speaker 1: think about, wait a minute, the line how is the
36:09
Speaker 1: lineup conductor? How is the thing or how are they
36:11
Speaker 1: behaving in the courtroom? Are they being suggestive? Are they
36:15
Speaker 1: is this a fair trial? Am I being presented with?
36:19
Speaker 1: Remember it's beyond a reasonable doubt. That's one of the
36:23
Speaker 1: bedrocks of our whole system, right, it's supposed to be
36:25
Speaker 1: beyond How can anyone listen to this story? And of
36:29
Speaker 1: course hindsight's twenty twenty, but how could anyone listen? I
36:32
Speaker 1: think anyone listening now would say, well, if I was
36:34
Speaker 1: on that jury, I would have I never would have
36:38
Speaker 1: voted to convict. I mean, but twelve people did, and
36:43
Speaker 1: so you know that's and anyway, now IM gonna turn
36:46
Speaker 1: it back over to you, Louise, I'm sorry.
36:47
Speaker 3: Well, going back to a jury identification, right, my son
36:50
Speaker 3: and my wife they got a jury summons, and one
36:53
Speaker 3: of the things that I told them was like, you know,
36:56
Speaker 3: they showed it to me. I told them, you know,
36:58
Speaker 3: do this, that's duty that you have to observe. So
37:01
Speaker 3: when you go, make sure that you listen to all
37:03
Speaker 3: the evidence real carefully, because remember I told them this,
37:07
Speaker 3: use my case as an example, and they know very
37:10
Speaker 3: well what happened in my case. My case was such
37:13
Speaker 3: a high FOTI five case that my picture was coming
37:16
Speaker 3: out on every newspaper, even including Laupinill the Mexican newspaper.
37:20
Speaker 3: It was front cover, full size, front cover. When I
37:23
Speaker 3: went to the Mexican Councilate to try to get my paper,
37:27
Speaker 3: my Mexican ID to begin my process and my PIRTH certificate,
37:31
Speaker 3: they were requiring me a picture. I d now remember.
37:34
Speaker 3: All I had with me was my prison identification and
37:37
Speaker 3: the Turning had said, do not show that unless it's
37:40
Speaker 3: absolutely necessary. So here I am in the Mexican Counselate
37:44
Speaker 3: in front of these people trying to give my Mexican
37:48
Speaker 3: paperwork so I could start my identification process. Well, when
37:51
Speaker 3: I go in there, I look at a stack of
37:52
Speaker 3: newspapers from Lapinille and then guess what all of them
37:55
Speaker 3: had my picture on it. They must have been probably
37:58
Speaker 3: around maybe twenty four twenty five newspapers stacked up altogether. Well,
38:02
Speaker 3: when we went in there, my mother, you know, not
38:05
Speaker 3: being just thought I was a celebrity because she's I mean,
38:08
Speaker 3: this is something to hold, right, So she went ahead.
38:11
Speaker 6: And grabbed about probably five or six.
38:14
Speaker 3: Newspapers and put them in her bag. Well, when we
38:17
Speaker 3: walked in there, we're in front of I mean, they
38:19
Speaker 3: gave us such a hard time to try to get
38:21
Speaker 3: our paper that we finally went into this attorney's office, okay,
38:26
Speaker 3: And we're in front of her desk, sitting down and
38:29
Speaker 3: we're explained to her that I have no identifications that
38:32
Speaker 3: I need to begin to get my birth certificate and
38:36
Speaker 3: my Mexican matriculand.
38:40
Speaker 6: Which is ID.
38:41
Speaker 3: And the first thing she tells us is, well, you
38:43
Speaker 3: know what, you cannot get it because you have to
38:45
Speaker 3: show us a picture I d and once again, my
38:49
Speaker 3: mother got so frustrated, missus Jason. My mother got so frustrated,
38:54
Speaker 3: mister Brooks that what she did it was funny.
38:57
Speaker 6: This was hilarious.
38:58
Speaker 3: She went ahead and grabbed one of the newspapers with
39:01
Speaker 3: my picture right on the cover, right front cover, on
39:05
Speaker 3: my county blues, and she it was the picture of
39:08
Speaker 3: the day. I got accelerated, and she went ahead and
39:11
Speaker 3: stood up. I mean, it's like they gave her a
39:13
Speaker 3: Vita b shot, right, and she stood right up and
39:15
Speaker 3: she grabbed the paper and she she literally slammed it
39:18
Speaker 3: on the attorney's desk and said, is this enough of
39:22
Speaker 3: a ninety for you? In Spanish?
39:24
Speaker 6: Right?
39:24
Speaker 3: She goes, is this is enough of a ninety? I
39:25
Speaker 3: mean she was mad. I hadn't seen my mouth so mad,
39:28
Speaker 3: you know, forever, right, But she slammed it on the
39:31
Speaker 3: desk and she goes, is this enough for an identification
39:34
Speaker 3: for you? My son who was sentenced? And you know,
39:36
Speaker 3: the the attorney lit at me, shocked. She looked at
39:41
Speaker 3: me and she goes, is that you come on? She goes,
39:44
Speaker 3: is that you I go yes, that's me. And that's
39:48
Speaker 3: when I when I brought out my idea identification, I
39:51
Speaker 3: put it on the desk next to the newspaper and
39:53
Speaker 3: told her that's me. And yes, they exponerated me of
39:56
Speaker 3: crimes that I have not commite. Back in nineteen ninety seven,
40:00
Speaker 3: I spent close to eighteen years of my life from prison,
40:02
Speaker 3: the convict being sentenced to fifty five years to life. Okay,
40:06
Speaker 3: no chance of seeing life anytime soon until this miracle happened.
40:11
Speaker 3: CIP came into the picture and I went ahead and
40:14
Speaker 3: had the opportunity to prove Yes, California and as a
40:16
Speaker 3: project came into the picture and had been had it
40:19
Speaker 3: not been for them, there were only two ways of
40:22
Speaker 3: me coming out of prison. Either people I seen over
40:25
Speaker 3: twenty two people killed killed in prison behind the cront
40:29
Speaker 3: that I had, you know, and fortunately for me and
40:31
Speaker 3: thank god, you know, nothing happened to me. But anyway,
40:34
Speaker 3: going back to the story, the attorney looked at me
40:36
Speaker 3: and her response, her comeback really shocked me. It really
40:43
Speaker 3: shocked me because the first thing she said, she had
40:46
Speaker 3: such a secere look in her face. And this is
40:49
Speaker 3: what your audience needs to keep in mind, because she
40:53
Speaker 3: said the Svargas, I am so sorry. And I looked
40:59
Speaker 3: at her and it baffled me. At the moment. I
41:02
Speaker 3: wasn't thinking at the moment. I wasn't like putting two
41:04
Speaker 3: and two together. But I looked at her and she goes,
41:07
Speaker 3: mister Vargus, I'm so sorry, and I go, why is that?
41:12
Speaker 3: And then she goes, I'm sorry because a jury. Listen
41:15
Speaker 3: to this, mister Jason, mister Brooks. When she apologized, she
41:20
Speaker 3: was apologizing for something that to me, apparently she had
41:24
Speaker 3: nothing to do it. But then when she gave me
41:26
Speaker 3: the response that I needed to really hear, it costs.
41:30
Speaker 3: I mean, to me, this was closure in a way.
41:34
Speaker 3: It was kind of closer to me because I finally
41:37
Speaker 3: felt that someone sympathized, empathized, not sympathize, empathize with what
41:42
Speaker 3: I went through. And I'm still struggling to put the
41:46
Speaker 3: pieces together. But she said, I'm sorry because a jury
41:51
Speaker 3: of your peers. Imagine that someone that wasn't even sitting in.
41:57
Speaker 6: The jury at that day.
41:58
Speaker 3: But she said, I'm sorry that a jury of your
42:01
Speaker 3: peers committed this mistake, and because of that, you were
42:05
Speaker 3: sensus to fifty five years to life. I am so sorry.
42:10
Speaker 3: And at that moment I said to myself, within my
42:14
Speaker 3: I didn't say. All I said to her was thank you,
42:16
Speaker 3: But deep inside myself, I was like relishing and the
42:19
Speaker 3: fact that I was beginning to find closure because it
42:25
Speaker 3: was difficult for me.
42:26
Speaker 6: It still is, it still is.
42:27
Speaker 3: I'm having trouble with a lot of things out here,
42:31
Speaker 3: but you know what, I'm working a lot through it.
42:32
Speaker 3: I got wonderful people such as the California Innocence Project,
42:36
Speaker 3: Justin Brooks, through kel Cohen, Elisa Berjoko, I had Simpson,
42:39
Speaker 3: mister Jeremy, all these wonderful people, even you guys, even
42:42
Speaker 3: your station. Even this is helping me event it's helping
42:46
Speaker 3: me let everything out. It's helping me go ahead, and
42:48
Speaker 3: you know what, forget about my past and renew my
42:51
Speaker 3: future because now that's actually what I have to do.
42:53
Speaker 3: I have to renew.
42:54
Speaker 2: Well.
42:55
Speaker 1: That means a lot for you to say that, because
42:57
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's something that's been an obsession
43:02
Speaker 1: of mine, is trying to be a small part of
43:06
Speaker 1: the recovery process, or the healing process, or the re
43:10
Speaker 1: entry process for brave men and women like you. So yeah,
43:16
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, your your a fantastic role
43:20
Speaker 1: model I think for other people who are going through
43:23
Speaker 1: not just these challenges, but other challenges in life. I
43:27
Speaker 1: think for me, I can say that just having a
43:30
Speaker 1: chance to talk with you and to be around others
43:34
Speaker 1: who've been through similar horrendous ordeals put so much gratitude
43:39
Speaker 1: in my attitude and makes, you know, it gives me perspective.
43:44
Speaker 1: And so I you know, I thank you for you know,
43:48
Speaker 1: coming on, and I know it's not easy to share
43:51
Speaker 1: these experiences, but it's so important in so many different ways.
43:56
Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you too. In the limited
44:00
Speaker 1: time that we have left. We covered a lot of
44:02
Speaker 1: ground here already. But when you were sent to prison,
44:07
Speaker 1: as you said, there were twenty two people in there.
44:10
Speaker 1: Some were guilty, some were probably innocent like you, who
44:13
Speaker 1: were murdered because they were charged with the similar crimes
44:17
Speaker 1: like you were charged with. Yes, and you managed to survive.
44:21
Speaker 1: And I think Justin was telling me that there's a
44:23
Speaker 1: you actually found an amazing sort of way to protect yourself,
44:32
Speaker 1: And can can you talk about that? You know what
44:34
Speaker 1: I mean?
44:35
Speaker 3: Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I have to
44:37
Speaker 3: do this on almost every six months because in prison
44:41
Speaker 3: the the people that controlled the prison yards.
44:44
Speaker 6: Okay, they asked for paperwork. Okay, this paperwork.
44:48
Speaker 3: Has all your controlling crimes, what have you in prison,
44:51
Speaker 3: and all your backgrounds, and it said whether you're charged
44:54
Speaker 3: with a rape or not. So what I had to
44:56
Speaker 3: do was that I had to Fortunately for me, I
44:59
Speaker 3: let it work a job in the program office where
45:01
Speaker 3: I had access to the computer. So what I was
45:04
Speaker 3: able to do that one document that they would always
45:07
Speaker 3: ask for, that the person politicians would always ask for,
45:10
Speaker 3: would they would. What I managed to do was that
45:13
Speaker 3: I had to type a new controlling crime. I had
45:17
Speaker 3: to type different dates, different names of lieutenant captains and
45:22
Speaker 3: commissioners that always appeared on the annual classifications. And I
45:25
Speaker 3: had to drop the font I had to lower the
45:27
Speaker 3: letter size exactly to the size that the original paper had.
45:33
Speaker 3: So what I had to do was that I had
45:34
Speaker 3: to carefully wide out the information that said that I
45:38
Speaker 3: was there for rape and the dates and all that.
45:40
Speaker 3: And what I did, I went ahead.
45:42
Speaker 6: And typed out first degree burglary.
45:44
Speaker 3: On the computer. I lowered the fonts, I went ahead
45:48
Speaker 3: and pasted them on top of the document that they
45:52
Speaker 3: had given me, and the new dates that coincide with
45:55
Speaker 3: all the annual classifications, the new names that coincide with
45:58
Speaker 3: all the people that were at that annual pleasications.
46:01
Speaker 2: I had to go ahead and do that.
46:02
Speaker 3: Almost every six months. Every three months, when they would
46:05
Speaker 3: ask for paperwork, they would take it to their cell
46:08
Speaker 3: and for two or three days at a time, they
46:10
Speaker 3: would analyze it. They would scrutinize it, and they would
46:12
Speaker 3: make sure that that paper was legitimate. So what I
46:15
Speaker 3: had to do I would have to fabricate new paperwork
46:18
Speaker 3: with my information on it, saying that I was there
46:21
Speaker 3: for as a struck out inmate under the three strike law,
46:24
Speaker 3: and my prime, my controlling Clint, was purty Reburglary.
46:27
Speaker 6: So I had to wide out all.
46:28
Speaker 3: The information and paste the new information on top. And
46:32
Speaker 3: after that I had to run copies, and after that
46:35
Speaker 3: I had to analyze it. I had to make sure
46:37
Speaker 3: that it was no smudges, no wrinkles, no nothing on
46:40
Speaker 3: it that would indicate that it had been tampered with.
46:43
Speaker 2: Because if not, so, imagine that, Jason, that we've so
46:49
Speaker 2: given over control of our prisons that the shot callers,
46:54
Speaker 2: which are other inmates who are running the yard, actually
46:57
Speaker 2: request inmates to turn their pace work over to them
47:01
Speaker 2: so they can review it and decide whether these guys
47:04
Speaker 2: should be killed or not. And a lot of people
47:06
Speaker 2: don't realize there's a real hierarchy in prison. There is
47:09
Speaker 2: this hierarchy in prison, and if you're in as a
47:11
Speaker 2: child molester, you're going to get killed. If you're a
47:14
Speaker 2: nerds a rapist, you're to get killed. And you've got
47:16
Speaker 2: to answer to what in prison is a higher authority
47:20
Speaker 2: not to get guards, not the courts, but the guys
47:23
Speaker 2: who are running those yards. And and yes, Louis had
47:26
Speaker 2: to worry every day were they going to figure it out?
47:28
Speaker 1: Well, that's unbelievable. I mean the amount of the amount
47:34
Speaker 1: of forethought and the amount of technical ingenuity and uh
47:41
Speaker 1: and everything else that you had to you know, with
47:44
Speaker 1: and a person like yourself who didn't have training in
47:46
Speaker 1: these areas right coming in. The idea that you were
47:49
Speaker 1: able to create this narrative and then prove it this
47:54
Speaker 1: false narrative to literally save your own life is something
47:59
Speaker 1: that I'm sure there's some people listening from Hollywood who
48:01
Speaker 1: are going to be like, oh, I'm gonna put that
48:02
Speaker 1: in a script now, because I don't think anybody's even
48:05
Speaker 1: seen that in a movie before. I mean, it's unbelievably brilliant.
48:08
Speaker 1: And in fact, if not for that, we probably very
48:11
Speaker 1: likely wouldn't be talking to you today because you would
48:13
Speaker 1: have been not only then you would have been roughly
48:16
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there were others like like you said,
48:17
Speaker 1: of those twenty two, and we know now that you know,
48:20
Speaker 1: somewhere between five and ten percent of the people in
48:22
Speaker 1: prison in America are innocent. So it stands to reason
48:25
Speaker 1: if twenty two guys were killed while you were in
48:26
Speaker 1: there for similar crimes, Let's say you know, probably two
48:31
Speaker 1: of them according to the statistics, probably two of them
48:34
Speaker 1: were innocent people who are in prison, and then we're victimized.
48:37
Speaker 1: And it's interesting too. You know, yesterday I want to
48:38
Speaker 1: give a shout out because yesterday I had a lunch
48:41
Speaker 1: with a guy Namednick Turner who runs the Vera Institute
48:44
Speaker 1: for Justice, who are doing incredible work and trying to
48:47
Speaker 1: reform the prison system and bring better practices and humane
48:52
Speaker 1: treatment into the prisons. And they're doing this in a
48:55
Speaker 1: variety of ways. They're bringing correction officials and high ranking
49:00
Speaker 1: members of government to visit European prisons where they treat
49:05
Speaker 1: people completely opposite the way we do. I mean, where
49:09
Speaker 1: there's respect and there's you know, and it actually leads
49:12
Speaker 1: to a better society because of the fact that when
49:14
Speaker 1: these people come out there were civism rates are so
49:16
Speaker 1: low because they've been treated like human beings when they
49:18
Speaker 1: were in and they've been given the tools and the
49:22
Speaker 1: dignity to come out and succeed on the outside, because
49:26
Speaker 1: their attitude in Europe, most places in Europe is hey,
49:29
Speaker 1: you know, when you come out, you might be living
49:31
Speaker 1: next door to me somewhere, and I'd rather have you
49:33
Speaker 1: be somebody who I treat, you know, with dignity, and
49:36
Speaker 1: then you come out and you know, we could you know,
49:38
Speaker 1: have a meal or whatever it could be. And some
49:41
Speaker 1: of the things that VERA is doing, and I encourage
49:43
Speaker 1: anyone who's listening to go check out via Institute for Justice.
49:48
Speaker 1: I don't remember the website off hand, but it's easy
49:50
Speaker 1: to look up and see some of the programs that
49:53
Speaker 1: they're even doing in prisons in America which are leading
49:55
Speaker 1: to dramatic decreases in violence inside the prisons, tremendous drops
50:01
Speaker 1: and recidivism rates, which is something we all should care about.
50:05
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, the good news is there's
50:07
Speaker 1: a movement underfoot. I think it's unstoppable at this point.
50:11
Speaker 1: But at the same time, we're going to need as
50:14
Speaker 1: many people to get involved as possible, and I want
50:19
Speaker 1: to before we close, I want to encourage people to
50:21
Speaker 1: go to the California Innocence Project website as well. I'm
50:25
Speaker 1: sure there are opportunities to volunteer and get involved. Justin
50:28
Speaker 1: can talk more about that maybe in his closing remarks,
50:32
Speaker 1: but you know, and and then I want to say,
50:34
Speaker 1: this is, you know, as we get ready to wrap
50:38
Speaker 1: up this this episode, you know, my favorite part Justin
50:43
Speaker 1: knows this, but for Luis's as new for you. My
50:46
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show is when I get to
50:49
Speaker 1: actually stop talking and just listen. And so what I
50:54
Speaker 1: like to do is turn the microphone over to you
50:57
Speaker 1: guys for final thoughts. And we're gonna save the best
51:00
Speaker 1: for last, and that's you, Luise. So Justin, what can
51:05
Speaker 1: you what are your what are your closing remarks? Is
51:09
Speaker 1: not it's not a trial, but it might as well be.
51:12
Speaker 2: A closing argument. Well, I just think, you know, it's
51:16
Speaker 2: so important that people remember that this can happen to you.
51:21
Speaker 2: You can be at work one day and the police
51:23
Speaker 2: show up and arrest you for something that you know
51:25
Speaker 2: nothing about, and you can hope for the best, but
51:29
Speaker 2: you can see through bad identification procedures, through false confessions
51:34
Speaker 2: that are obtained through people just giving false information, you
51:39
Speaker 2: can be convicted of a crime in the United States
51:41
Speaker 2: of America and go to prison for the rest of
51:43
Speaker 2: your life for something you didn't do. This is all
51:46
Speaker 2: of our criminal justice system. We all should take ownership
51:50
Speaker 2: of it. We're all responsible for it. So you need
51:53
Speaker 2: to get involved. So yeah, go and check out my website,
51:56
Speaker 2: California Innofansproject dot org. You could follow me on Twitter
52:00
Speaker 2: and hear my rants every day on Twitter. Justin o'brooks Houstinobrooks.
52:06
Speaker 2: And you know, it's coming up to be the end
52:09
Speaker 2: of Jerry Brown's life as governor in California. He's got
52:13
Speaker 2: about one hundred and forty seven days left. So the
52:17
Speaker 2: day that he has one hundred days left, I'm going
52:19
Speaker 2: to walk to Sacramento for the second time and ask
52:23
Speaker 2: him to release a number of our innocent clients that
52:27
Speaker 2: we followed clemency petitions for. So I'd ask for the
52:30
Speaker 2: support and that retweet my tweets to the governor that
52:33
Speaker 2: I tweet every single day and get involved. It's our system.
52:37
Speaker 2: We're responsible for it.
52:39
Speaker 1: So that's just Justin Obrooks on Twitter, George Justinobrooks and
52:44
Speaker 1: just to Geek. I mean, Justin's being too modest. He's
52:46
Speaker 1: going to be walking about seven hundred miles. He's done
52:49
Speaker 1: it before and he's doing it again. That's the type
52:52
Speaker 1: of commitment that I can just sit here and take
52:55
Speaker 1: my hat and my shoes off too and say, man,
52:58
Speaker 1: that is just it's awesome. I'm hoping to join you
53:01
Speaker 1: for part of that journey and I'm planning on it,
53:05
Speaker 1: and I hope other people will too, and you can
53:06
Speaker 1: and people can learn more about that by following Justin
53:08
Speaker 1: on Twitter Justin Obrooks and going to California Innocenceproject dot org. Okay, Luis,
53:14
Speaker 1: I'm turning it over to you.
53:15
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, I'm thankful first of all for having this opportunity. Secondly,
53:20
Speaker 3: I let to tell everybody out there. I mean, I'm
53:22
Speaker 3: pretty sure you have wonderful audience that want to get involved.
53:25
Speaker 3: I do not doubt that at all during the times
53:27
Speaker 3: that I was in prison, that all the years that
53:29
Speaker 3: I was in prison and I ran into a lot
53:30
Speaker 3: of people that used to come up to me and say,
53:33
Speaker 3: I'm innocent. I'm innocent of the crimes that they accused
53:36
Speaker 3: me of, and then they would vent. I would ask
53:39
Speaker 3: them questions and they would vent, and they would tell
53:42
Speaker 3: me how their crients went and everything that they went through,
53:44
Speaker 3: and they would affirm I am innocent. I mean, I'm
53:47
Speaker 3: talking about people that were sentenced to twenty five years
53:50
Speaker 3: to life plus one hundred more years come on, what
53:53
Speaker 3: kind of sentences to those And they were telling me,
53:55
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, I'm innocent the crimes I have committed they
53:58
Speaker 3: accused me of. Well, I never had the opportunity. I
54:01
Speaker 3: never had the opportunity to have a shoulder to be
54:02
Speaker 3: able to bent on because then they would ask questions,
54:05
Speaker 3: why are you here for? And I couldn't tell them.
54:07
Speaker 3: But there were many people that told me that that
54:09
Speaker 3: they were innocent. So projects such as the California Innocence Projects,
54:14
Speaker 3: and not only public involvement, but all the people that
54:16
Speaker 3: also hear these type of cases that are being spoken about.
54:20
Speaker 3: I mean I urged them to go in and get involved.
54:23
Speaker 3: If you have people, if you have someone in prison
54:25
Speaker 3: that has been wrongly convicted and you feel that it's
54:27
Speaker 3: been wrongly convicted. As I have heard many stories of
54:30
Speaker 3: people out here nowadays, get involved. Write the people that
54:35
Speaker 3: you need to write to. I mean when I was
54:36
Speaker 3: in person, I were over twenty some letters hoping that
54:39
Speaker 3: someone would answer. And I thank god that mister Justin
54:41
Speaker 3: Brooks and the California Insans Project did answer that it
54:45
Speaker 3: was very important to me. They went ahead and did that. Unfortunately,
54:48
Speaker 3: I was able to come out on my own to
54:50
Speaker 3: the feet, not on a stretcher. I was able to
54:53
Speaker 3: come out and be able to speak out here as
54:55
Speaker 3: far as the things that are going on. So people,
54:58
Speaker 3: wonderful audiences that are out, get involved. Get involved, because
55:01
Speaker 3: you are the one that makes a difference. As mister
55:04
Speaker 3: Jason said, you're going to be part of a jury.
55:06
Speaker 3: You know, it's going to be up to you to
55:07
Speaker 3: be able. You're going to be able to hold someone's
55:09
Speaker 3: life in the balance in your hands, and it's going
55:12
Speaker 3: to be on you whether that individual gets rightfully, rightfully
55:16
Speaker 3: tried or not.
55:18
Speaker 6: But you guys are the voice that we have.
55:19
Speaker 3: You guys gave me a voice, okay, when I had
55:22
Speaker 3: no voice, when I was behind prison bars and I
55:24
Speaker 3: couldn't do anything about my situation.
55:26
Speaker 6: It was the public.
55:27
Speaker 3: It was you guys, the people that got involved that
55:30
Speaker 3: was able to help me out, and not because you guys.
55:32
Speaker 3: I'm out here right now, I'm talking to you through
55:34
Speaker 3: these wonderful means of the radio, and I can feel
55:37
Speaker 3: those positative vibies. I can sense that, you know what,
55:39
Speaker 3: there is someone out there that saying, you know what,
55:41
Speaker 3: I can and I should make a difference. So get involved,
55:44
Speaker 3: get involved. Once again, I just want to thank you
55:46
Speaker 3: guys for for doing this and for allowing me to
55:49
Speaker 3: get involved in such programs such as these, because it's
55:52
Speaker 3: a wonderful thing to be able to contribute. They bring
55:55
Speaker 3: such self satisfaction to be able to say, you know what,
55:59
Speaker 3: I should get involved, So please get involved.
56:02
Speaker 1: Louise, thank you again. It's really been inspiring listening to you.
56:08
Speaker 1: You're a remarkable man and I wish you all the
56:11
Speaker 1: blessings that life has to offer. And I'm looking forward
56:15
Speaker 1: to getting to know you more as we travel along
56:18
Speaker 1: this road and working together to spread the word and
56:21
Speaker 1: justin what can I say? You're the you know you know,
56:25
Speaker 1: like I said, you're you're a hero of mine and
56:28
Speaker 1: so many of us in the movement, and I'm looking
56:30
Speaker 1: forward to working closely with you to yeah YouTube for sure,
56:34
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to working closely with you on
56:39
Speaker 1: as we as we turn this whole situation upside down,
56:42
Speaker 1: which is exactly what we're going to do. So thanks so.
56:46
Speaker 2: Much, brother, I really appreciate all that you do for
56:48
Speaker 2: all of us out here.
56:50
Speaker 1: Okay, well, this has been an amazing episode for me
56:55
Speaker 1: to be a part of, and I want to thank
56:56
Speaker 1: the audience for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Don't forget to
57:04
Speaker 1: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,
57:08
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the
57:11
Speaker 1: Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll join me in
57:13
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future
57:17
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org to learn how
57:21
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
57:24
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in
57:27
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
57:31
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
57:34
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with
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Speaker 1: Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good podcasts
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Speaker 1: and association with signal Company Number one