Latest / The Price of Music / Bigger than Ed Sheeran – have you heard of Mrs Green Apple? Why are so many old bands in the album charts? (And so few in the singles chart?) Plus: The Wiggles!

Transcript

Bigger than Ed Sheeran – have you heard of Mrs Green Apple? Why are so many old bands in the album charts? (And so few in the singles chart?) Plus: The Wiggles! · The Price of Music

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  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
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  Music Ally, the show that both looks at the finances of the
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  music industry but also brings you the stories and comments
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  about the past week in the pop business.
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  He's Stuart Dredge. I'm Steve Lamac.
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  If you want an easy guide to what's going on in the music
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  industry and how it all works, then here we are.
• 0:21
  This week, the world's most popular artists in 2025, the
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  ticketing firm looking to help more artists connect with fans,
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  real fans rather than bots. And it's a bad week if you're in
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  a band wanting to have a big hits.
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  But first, here he is with this week's conversation starter.
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  Give us an interesting stat you discovered this week.
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  What's your big numbers do? Big number.
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  It's 2.06 billion this week, and that is how many chart units
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  which we'll discuss the most popular song of last year,
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  racked up. And what was pull us out of her
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  misery? What was the most popular song
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  of last year? Reminder.
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  This is according to your Prince, and it's Apatah or APT
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  by Bruno Mars and Rose, which was the big duet of last year.
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  So Rose is what we're members of BLACKPINK, the big K pop band.
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  And yeah, this is according to the industry board of the IFPI.
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  So they produced these charts of the top singles, top albums to
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  artists. And we're going to talk about
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  some of those some more, aren't we?
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  I think so. This is based on streams and
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  sales, and this is based on that weighting.
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  Where were those streams from? People who are paying or not,
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  Where in the world were they? So that 2.06 billion figure
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  isn't just streams, it's kind of a weighted figure of chart
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  units. So one lesson here, Bruno Mars
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  also was fourth in the chart of best singles.
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  The biggest thing was last year with Die With a Smile with Lady
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  Gaga. So if you want a massive global
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  pop hit, you're going to give Bruno a call or the you probably
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  have to be a massive global pop star to get into answer.
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  Eight of the top 10 singles last year came out in 2024.
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  And that says something about how our streaming world works
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  and that things hang around for bloody ages.
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  And in terms of money, I mean, it's very hard to work out
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  money. But if it was, if it was like 2
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  billion streams, it's kind of 14 to $15 million of payouts, which
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  is, you know, that's a big hit nowadays.
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  But it depends where those streams are and how how
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  economically valuable they are. But yeah, so Bruno and Rosie.
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  Just remind us who the IF the IFPI, who they who they are and
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  about their very expensive report.
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  Yes, a comprehensive and expensive report.
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  Yeah, they're the global labels body.
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  So they are if the BPI in the UK, the ROIA and the US and the
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  IFPI is kind of the umbrella for all those organizations that
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  represent record labels and recorded music.
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  And they, yeah, they do. It's annual report, which is
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  coming, I think it's next month, which basically is all the stats
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  on the industry and recordings and how much they sold and how,
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  how much money is being generated.
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  And yeah, they have this report. We said I'm going to check how
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  much it is last year, last year's report.
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  So this is like all the figures about the music industry.
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  And last year's one I think was I'm clicking by now. 16 and a
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  half, 1000 lbs. There you go.
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  I'm not clicking by now. Actually, I'm going to close
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  that tab straight away. All right, three more talking
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  points this week. We'll stay with that IIF.
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  Why is that so hard to say? We'll stay with the IFPI reports
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  because have you heard of a Japanese rock band called Missus
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  Green Apple? And if your answers, no, you're
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  in good company. I'd never heard of Missus Green
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  Apple, but the reason we mentioned Missus Green Apple is
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  because they were the 13th biggest artist in the world last
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  year. So bigger than Eminem, bigger
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  than Ed Sheeran, apparently bigger than Justin Bieber.
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  That's Mrs. Green Apple. I presume you've you've looked
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  them up by now, Mrs. Green Apple?
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  I guess you've probably got a playlist of them, have you?
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  Well, it's one of those things where you see a name and you end
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  up going down that little Rd. to discovery.
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  So yeah, they're a Japanese rock band.
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  They've been going since I think it's 2014 and they're they're
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  they're they're in the IFPIS chart of biggest artists from
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  last year at #13, which is kind of interesting because
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  traditionally Japan is a very much, it's its own market.
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  Its biggest artists are really big there.
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  They don't necessarily cut translator well to the West,
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  certainly. And it was interesting because I
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  think one of the conclusions you might jump to in this news is Oh
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  well, they the biggest bands in Japan sell a lot of albums like
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  they sell a lot of physical albums.
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  Maybe that's it because this chart is about value and sales
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  kind of lock to it. But the latest album was it was
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  the 19th biggest album last year by sales.
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  So actual people buying it, but it was the 11th biggest in
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  streams. So they really are a popular
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  enough bands to be kind of up there with those other those big
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  Western names you mentioned. So in all these charts do the do
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  they do an end of year album chart at all?
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  They do. OK, so for next week, will you
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  do us a favour for next week? And on the going back to your
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  point about singles and how many of the singles were actually
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  released last year, have a look to see when the albums in the
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  album chart came out. And there's a there's a reason
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  for this. I was doing some research for a
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  podcast series which we're currently making and so I ended
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  up living an entire afternoon back in 1989.
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  But the end of year albums for 1989, the the best selling
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  albums in the UK only I think seven of them had been released
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  in previous years and none of those seven had been released
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  before I think 87. So there were 7 records which
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  came out in 87 and 88, which was still popular enough to be a
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  part of the Top 40 biggest albums of 89.
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  But I'm sure now if you go and have a look, there are these out
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  there are albums which are just at this point with maybe 4.
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  But albums hang around as well for ages now, don't they?
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  I mean, I noticed in that in one of those charts you sent us that
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  the weekend are still there. The weekend never need to make
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  another record, don't they? Because once once once you've
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  got the the catalog out there, the weekend are always going to
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  be in an end of year chart. But we'll come back to that next
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  week. Actually, though, talking of
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  charts, here's a couple of points which we thought were
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  worth picking up on. This story I noticed must have
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  been press released by someone because even BBC News picked
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  this one up, the number one by Sam Fender and Olivia Dean.
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  How long does it take to reach the top spot?
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  35 weeks, 35 weeks after it was released, it went to #1 what do
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  we put this down to? Because this is, I mean, it's
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  beaten the old record by a, by a country mile.
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  Yeah, I think the last one I think was 19 weeks for Ed
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  Sheeran was the previous record. And that was yeah.
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  And it's because we're talking about things hanging around for
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  ages, aren't we popular? But this idea of going taking
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  that long to get to the top, it is quite unusual.
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  So this is raining in. It was actually a Sam Fender
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  album track came out last February on his album.
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  And then Oliver Dean, I'm not sure of the exact order.
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  I think she performed it live with him at his big, big gigs in
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  the summer. And then I think the the remix
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  was released, which featured her on it.
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  So it then became a duet. And that's what's been 35 weeks.
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  And it's hard getting, I'm trying to get to the bottom of
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  why? Because I mean, the, the label
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  boss, there was press release and the label boss essentially
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  said it's a brilliant song by two brilliant performers, which
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  as a label boss is exactly what you have to say.
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  You can't say we did this interesting marketing or we did
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  this TikTok campaign, or this is what we did to help it get to #1
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  it's got to be all about the song and the artist.
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  And that's understandable. But I suspect there will be a
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  story behind this because if you're a modern record label and
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  you see something that's kind of gradually building, you don't
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  just sort of sit back and hope it'll get to #1 you start doing
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  stuff. So I'm going to be interested to
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  find out in in coming weeks, like why and how.
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  But obviously they're both important.
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  She, Olivia Dean won a Grammy recently, Sam Fender won the
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  Mercury Prize. Like they've both been having
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  that kind of Arc, haven't they, of growing as well.
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  So it's kind of perfect storm. Would it would it also be true
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  to say that, you know, if it's reasonably popular?
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  At one point people have seen them perform the the song
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  together at said gig, so they listen to it.
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  It gets to a certain level of popularity, which will then push
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  it onto one or two playlists, which will make it more popular,
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  which will then end up with the track being on even more
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  playlists, and that's how it gains traction.
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  Yeah. And I think there is there is
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  still a quality thing here in that people aren't skipping it
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  on those playlists, which either means they're not really
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  listening carefully. They didn't skip anything.
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  But I think also doesn't mean that people like it.
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  People are playing it and repeat who were playing with it.
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  So but yeah, there is there is a sort of, there's a, there's a,
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  what's it called? There's a gathering momentum for
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  songs when they get to this level of hit where, yeah, it
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  just kind of rolls on and then people add it to their own
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  playlists. And I mean, I don't know, this
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  is this is not me and my friends.
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  People I know are not a a good sample group for anything
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  really, but I there are a lot of people out there who have there
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  my favorite songs this year playlist and one if they put
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  something on there, they just still will play it a lot.
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  So I think there's a lot of that when you picked up the Midland
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  people are adding it to their own things.
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  But yeah, and it's, I don't know, it's AI mean, it's a, it's
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  a like you say, it's a for the British music industry.
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  It's no surprise they're celebrating it because there has
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  been that period to be going, Oh my God, what's happening to all
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  the British artists globally and Sam Fender, Olivier Dean
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  individually are things that the industry wants to hold up and
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  say, look, we can still break artists and not just here in the
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  UK. So I'm not surprised everyone is
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  jumping on us and going, look at this great story.
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  It's because they're so brilliant and popular, but
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  there's definitely some, there've been some hard work
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  going into that final push I reckon, to get to Temple One.
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  So, yeah, can I just mention this as well?
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  Finally on the on the chart, this week's top 30 singles
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  chart, I had a look at this. This was after I looked up and
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  we'll come back to this in the lock in the popularity of
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  certain solo artists and the amount of tickets they're now
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  selling, but also the, I guess, you know, it comes back to
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  streaming again. But I looked up the top 30
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  singles chart just to see how popular some of these, you know,
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  live favourites were. And I went through the top 30.
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  Do you know what? There's not a single band in the
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  top 30. This not one band in the top 30
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  singles chart this week. I don't think I ever envisaged a
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  time when bands would mean so little to mainstream pop music.
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  But this, this is where we are now.
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  Well, this week. Do you think this has been going
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  on for months and we haven't noticed or do you think this is
• 11:16
  the I? Mean, I mean, quite possibly.
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  I mean, maybe I'm showing my age, but kids, what's happening?
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  I mean, is this, I mean, is this partly because of the economics
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  of pop music these days that it's just cheaper to be a solo
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  artist? You can make more money as a
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  solo artist. And so that's the route that
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  more artists, more songwriters are going down.
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  Or is it because the music that's currently popular lends
• 11:43
  itself more to solo artists, to the, to the bedroom singers?
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  Or, you know, someone, someone who's writing Electro music in,
• 11:53
  you know, in their little office studio at home?
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  You know, is it the Electro innovators, the torch singers
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  all sat at home with, you know, with their software possibly.
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  Is that, is that where we are? Is it the music that's leading
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  this? I don't know.
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  I mean, I mean, I'm obviously I'm not being scornful at all.
• 12:11
  Trust me, I'm just of anyone, you know, I don't I don't have a
• 12:15
  downer on people who want to go it alone.
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  And the but it what it's just, I'm fascinated by the fact, you
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  know, that music listening now is just so dominated by
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  individuals doing their own thing.
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  I mean, obviously some of them surrounded by bands of session
• 12:31
  musicians or friends, but I'd, I'd love to know what people
• 12:34
  think. Usual, usual e-mail address.
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  Yeah, well, one thing is I think there's that didn't happen in
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  the in the old in the in the past is there's like multiple
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  entries. So Olivia Dean's got a few
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  tracks on there. Charlie XCX has got a few tracks
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  on there, some has got a few tracks.
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  So that's that's one different thing is like if you're a big
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  solo artist, you're more than like to have two or three songs
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  in the top 30 at once rather than one.
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  But couldn't that couldn't you do that with bands?
• 12:57
  Well, yeah, you know, if you, if you know if, if the old I
• 13:02
  noticed you shield away from saying old days, I'm going to
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  say old days. In the old days, if there was a
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  popular band, that band would have repeat tracks in the top 30
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  as well, wouldn't I? Yeah, I mean, are we?
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  So here's to so outliers, right? So there is a group in the top
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  30 but that's Huntrix who have entirely virtual K pop demon
• 13:21
  hunters characters. Yeah, don't I guess.
• 13:25
  Is Tame Impala a band? Yeah.
• 13:27
  Time. Is that one guy?
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  Is it the band, do you think? I mean, I call them a band, but
• 13:33
  when I looked they were about what were they 34 or something,
• 13:37
  32 and then so the. The the the the if if if Tim and
• 13:41
  Parlor is one guy who has a people playing with him or bad,
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  you know, if it's if he's not a band, then the bigger the top
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  band of Fleetwood Mac at #34 in the singles chart, which, you
• 13:52
  know, we talked about Fleetwood Macs enduring popularity,
• 13:54
  haven't we? Because it's streaming.
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  But I always thought that was albums.
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  But their song Landslide is number 34 in the pop charts.
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  Again though, I'm. Not aware?
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  Hang. On Yeah, well, where is this
• 14:04
  coming from? Is there maybe impossible 111
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  week? We should just not do anything
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  else apart from forensically go through all the playlists, all
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  the most popular playlists on the streaming services, the ones
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  that have clout, and see just how much they are affecting
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  everything else. Do you know I've just found
• 14:25
  something else looking at OK, so if we're going down the chart
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  beyond 30, I'm going to go the the bands I see.
• 14:31
  OK, so you thought Fleetwood Mac Landslide, the next band is #43
• 14:37
  The Cure Boys Don't Cry. Yeah, the next band.
• 14:40
  That's a. New that's a new version though,
• 14:42
  isn't it? That's why that's.
• 14:43
  Yeah. So they, there's a version of it
• 14:47
  which, you know, oh, we found it in a cupboard.
• 14:49
  Robert Smith's favorite. He says if he says it's the
• 14:52
  definitive version of Boys Don't Cry.
• 14:54
  So they they've reissued that in the last few weeks.
• 14:57
  So that's why that's there. 53 Mr. Brightside Good old Mr.
• 15:01
  Brightside. Yeah, always. 58 Iris Google
• 15:04
  just like it's. I don't think you can even get
• 15:07
  in the in the top 60 as a new band.
• 15:10
  You have to be a band with several decades and 200 up
• 15:13
  traffic. So there is something really,
• 15:15
  really strange going on. But I suppose the other thing I
• 15:18
  always wonder about if it's typical, like if a big band
• 15:21
  released an album next week, they'll have a bunch of tracks
• 15:23
  in there, so it will suddenly flip again.
• 15:25
  But yeah, I think you can point something interesting there.
• 15:27
  But I think it's, yeah, it's more the trend though, as you
• 15:30
  say, there's no, there's no new new bands if you like in there.
• 15:36
  And is this, is this already becoming something within the
• 15:39
  music industry where? And we all know that the music
• 15:42
  industry will go where it thinks the trend is.
• 15:44
  And if the music industry have a hit with a solo artist, they
• 15:47
  will sign more solo artists. And if the music industry wakes
• 15:51
  up on a Monday morning, looks at Friday's chart and sees an
• 15:55
  entire top 30 full of solo artists, then they'll think,
• 15:58
  well, solo, this is the way to go.
• 16:00
  And so it's then it goes into a spot on, isn't it?
• 16:05
  It'd be great to hear some of bands and how they feel.
• 16:07
  Is this making bands feel downhearted and we shouldn't
• 16:10
  bother? Or are they are they doing their
• 16:12
  own thing and not caring about the chart positions anymore?
• 16:14
  I'd like, I'd love to know whether whether it how bands
• 16:16
  feel about this. Yeah, I mean it's.
• 16:18
  Sad. Or it's like, well, we don't.
• 16:20
  Need it. I mean, that is, that is, it's
• 16:22
  true. I'm probably the only one who's
• 16:25
  who's thought that this is of any note within rock music.
• 16:29
  But you know which. We'll see.
• 16:31
  As I say, your thoughts, please. Any other business, we should
• 16:35
  just quickly mention this because it's the end of a story
• 16:39
  which we've been covering for over a year.
• 16:42
  And it's why, I mean, I think this is this is going to
• 16:44
  disappoint quite a lot of the indie advocates out there,
• 16:49
  including AIM, the Association of Independent Music amongst
• 16:52
  them. But last week, since last week
• 16:55
  or the week before, at the end of the previous week, the
• 16:57
  European regulators approved that takeover by Universal Music
• 17:02
  Group of the independent firm Downtown Music, just for the
• 17:09
  final time. Now, you know, we don't we won't
• 17:12
  have to touch this story again. I don't think it is so much
• 17:15
  that. Yeah, But tell us, tell us what
• 17:18
  this this was all about. Because the deal, as soon as it
• 17:21
  was approved, when it within a week, the deal's actually gone
• 17:24
  through, isn't it? A version Music group now own
• 17:27
  Downtown Music. But why is that important and
• 17:30
  how did it happen? Yeah, so this has been going on
• 17:32
  for ages. It was announced quite a year
• 17:34
  and a half ago, wasn't it? Now on that.
• 17:36
  So yeah. So Virgin Music Group, which is
• 17:39
  a bit of Universal Music that deals with independent music in
• 17:42
  terms of it's a distributor and artist services company.
• 17:45
  It helps artists really. So it's it's just the indie bit
• 17:48
  of UMGI know some people will go there at that thought, but that
• 17:52
  is and so now it owns down to music, which down to music is
• 17:54
  this multi prong firm. It does publishing, it does
• 17:58
  royalty collecting. It has, you know, it works with
• 18:01
  a bunch of independent artists in different ways and labels.
• 18:04
  So it's now part of VMG, which is part of UMG acronym fans.
• 18:09
  And what's going to happen now is the first thing they're going
• 18:11
  to do is they're going to sell a thing called Curve, which is
• 18:13
  downtown's royalty processing company.
• 18:16
  So it's a company that artists and labels can use to kind of
• 18:19
  process and their royalties from streaming and places.
• 18:22
  And the regulators said that was the one sticking point with the
• 18:26
  deal going through was saying, well, we're a bit worried about
• 18:28
  Curve has got all this data on people's royalties and streams
• 18:31
  and if Universal owns that data, it could use it in anti
• 18:34
  competitive ways. So they've said, Nope, we'll
• 18:36
  sell this curve and that. And this is a very sort of
• 18:39
  inside baseball thing, but that that's going to spark a who's
• 18:42
  going to buy it debate. And the whoever buys this, it
• 18:47
  could become a big new service used by independent labels and
• 18:50
  artists. So that's one strand of this and
• 18:53
  otherwise they're going to kind of get on with integrating it.
• 18:56
  And what's happening is, I mean, the, the the approval was
• 18:59
  announced and then Universal announced the completion of a
• 19:02
  deal. But we also heard from the
• 19:03
  independent bodies. So we heard from Impala, which
• 19:05
  is the European Indies body. It's been very, very prominent
• 19:08
  in fighting this. We heard from win, which is the
• 19:11
  global labels body as well. And I mean, essentially they did
• 19:16
  lose and that the deal went through and they didn't want it
• 19:18
  to go through. But what the indie bodies have
• 19:21
  been saying is actually, we think it's a partial victory
• 19:24
  because the regulators took a really long, hard look at this
• 19:28
  and they made them. They made them do a change.
• 19:31
  They made them sell this bit curve before they get it
• 19:34
  through. And so in both cases, these
• 19:36
  bodies have said, we think this is really good, this level of
• 19:38
  scrutiny and this willingness to tell them you can't do this
• 19:41
  unless you sell off that bit. Impala said it sends a clear
• 19:45
  message that future acquisitions were subject to tough and
• 19:47
  lengthy scrutiny. So that's the line coming up the
• 19:51
  indie camp against the against this deal that this shows that
• 19:54
  any term major tries to buy a big independent music firm in
• 19:57
  future, the regulators will be on them like a ton of Brits.
• 19:59
  I think they'll be They must be bitterly disappointed though,
• 20:04
  because in the cut and thrust of the arguments that were going
• 20:07
  backwards and forwards, it was quite a you know, the language
• 20:13
  aimed at universal and you know the.
• 20:18
  Harvesting of various independent firms, I mean, they
• 20:21
  were so vehemently anti this happening that I don't know, I
• 20:26
  don't know if we can underestimate just how, you
• 20:28
  know, strongly some people feel about this because I mean, the,
• 20:31
  because if, if at the ends of this whole process, and yes,
• 20:37
  it's good that, you know, regulators took their time.
• 20:40
  But in the end, green lighting this, surely the worry then is
• 20:44
  that there'll be more acquisitions by the majors of
• 20:47
  independent firms to, to follow because it was they'll be
• 20:53
  scrutinised and then green lighted, scrutinised, then green
• 20:56
  lighted with I don't know. That's why that's why I think,
• 21:00
  and particularly I'm sure, I'm sure I'm hurting this week.
• 21:04
  Yeah. I mean there are two other
• 21:05
  things to say about it. One is, and one of the things
• 21:07
  where I think that the people were were less angry and more
• 21:10
  thoughtful was in pilots of this.
• 21:15
  What they do want is they want independent music companies to
• 21:17
  be able to sell if they want to, because that's how I guess
• 21:21
  innovation works and entrepreneurs work that if you
• 21:23
  set up a company, at some point you might want to sell it.
• 21:26
  And if you can sell it, that encourages people to set up
• 21:28
  independent companies and start. So they've been talking, they're
• 21:31
  saying, OK, right. If we don't want them to sell to
• 21:33
  major companies, we need to figure out how to have other
• 21:36
  people who would like to buy them.
• 21:37
  We need to have, you know, how can we make independent music
• 21:39
  something that other people buy into?
• 21:42
  So that's one of the longer term things here.
• 21:43
  They think it's going to make. It's in a way the fact that
• 21:46
  Universal paid, I think it was $775 million for downtown.
• 21:49
  That does say independent music is valuable.
• 21:52
  And maybe there'll be other people who want to come in and
• 21:54
  buy who aren't Universal. So that's one thing.
• 21:57
  The other thing is I think there's going to be some afters
• 21:59
  for this. So one of the things that might
• 22:01
  happen now is some artists may decide or songwriters may have
• 22:04
  said, I don't want to carry on using downtown if I'm using them
• 22:08
  to collect my royalties, my publishing.
• 22:09
  I don't want to. I don't want to be within
• 22:11
  Universal if I'm independent. And everyone is saying they're
• 22:15
  going to watch very carefully to make sure that no one is kind of
• 22:17
  restricted from leaving if they want to.
• 22:19
  So if they want to leave downtown, can they take all
• 22:22
  their data with them? They're not given any kind of
• 22:25
  reasons why they can't. So that's that's The Afters here
• 22:27
  that people are watching and saying, right.
• 22:28
  You did say that it would be fine if people wanted to leave
• 22:30
  us once we own this company. Now you have to follow through
• 22:33
  on that. So I think there's a lot of
• 22:35
  like, we're going to keep watching them because we don't
• 22:37
  trust in one bit about this. But yeah, it's a, it's it's a
• 22:42
  knock, but I think it's for to give the other side.
• 22:47
  Universal and Virginia have both talked about how they want to
• 22:49
  make downtown bigger and better and provide better services for
• 22:53
  the independent artists it does work with.
• 22:54
  And I think it's important to put that because I think the
• 22:57
  arguments haven't been about there's not good people there
• 22:59
  wanting to do good things. So 1 positive outcome here is
• 23:02
  they put more money behind it and it does a good job for the
• 23:05
  independent artists who are still there.
• 23:08
  All right, the company that helped Radiohead, Bad Bunny and
• 23:11
  Oasis make sure fans knocked outs got tickets for their tours
• 23:16
  is now looking to expand and help more artists.
• 23:20
  Yeah, I wanted to raise this. I will see what you think about
• 23:22
  it really, because it's a company called Openstage and
• 23:24
  we've talked about them before, but they, they help artists
• 23:26
  basically build a database to a main list of their fans and then
• 23:30
  give them first dibs on tickets. And the whole idea is we want to
• 23:34
  get tickets in towns, fans, not towns, like I said.
• 23:36
  So if you, I mean, if anyone who registered Radiohead tickets and
• 23:39
  we're told, yes, you've got a code, you can go in and try and
• 23:42
  buy, they did that. I got my Super for Animals
• 23:44
  tickets through a system they ran as well.
• 23:46
  So they're working with a growing number of artists.
• 23:49
  And yeah, the, the news is they're unlock opening up to
• 23:51
  other artists. It's called ticket unlocks.
• 23:54
  So the idea is that more and more artists can do this when
• 23:56
  they're when they're going to have concerts that are going to
• 23:58
  sell out, they're going to help them say, right, how do you want
• 24:01
  to do this? Do you want to do a lottery
• 24:03
  where fans just supply and you do it at random?
• 24:06
  Do you want to do a weighted thing where you're basically
• 24:08
  essentially saying, who are my biggest fans?
• 24:10
  Well, who who reads the emails I send?
• 24:13
  Who clicks on the links to the emails?
• 24:15
  Who buys merch, Who's bought tickets before?
• 24:18
  And that's, I think the thing that's in my mind about this,
• 24:21
  this, this, this may be a new era we're going to where is the
• 24:26
  answer to ticket touting starting to rank fans by their
• 24:29
  fandom and say, yeah, you qualify for a ticket because we
• 24:33
  can see these things you've done that make you a fan.
• 24:36
  You don't qualify for a ticket because we can't see.
• 24:39
  And I'm I'm in two minds about that.
• 24:42
  Like this idea of an artist being able to say, yes, here are
• 24:45
  my top 1000 fans. I'll give them tickets first.
• 24:48
  On the one hand, that does shut the touts out.
• 24:51
  It's very hard to kind of game that system with a bot.
• 24:55
  On the other hand, if you're not in that top 1000 but you love a
• 24:57
  band or an artist, you end up feeling a bit sad or angry.
• 25:02
  But this, this feels like where we're going now, this idea of
• 25:05
  there's loads of data on everything that a fan does to do
• 25:07
  with an artist. So shall we use it to decide who
• 25:10
  comes to the concerts? Yeah, I mean, there's lots of
• 25:14
  dangers with with with that, I think.
• 25:17
  I mean, and I get why you would do it.
• 25:20
  And then on the face of it, that's that's good.
• 25:23
  I mean, the good thing is all right, again, getting the
• 25:25
  tickets to actual fans, but aren't you in danger of selling
• 25:29
  your tickets to the same thousand fans every time?
• 25:31
  Because because then it's a self fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?
• 25:34
  Because who came to our last gig?
• 25:36
  Well, the thousand we picked last time.
• 25:38
  So now it's the same thousand. Yeah, again.
• 25:42
  You could you? Could you?
• 25:43
  Could use it to say not that thousand, another thousand.
• 25:46
  So you could use this technology in different ways.
• 25:48
  Yeah, you could use. It to say, do you wanna be that
• 25:50
  involved in picking and choosing who's going to your gigs?
• 25:53
  Look, I think it's great that there's, you know, that that
• 25:56
  we're using the data in some way to lock out the touts.
• 26:00
  What you do with it, how you do it.
• 26:02
  I think as you say, we'll come down to individual artists
• 26:05
  because they'll have the choice of how they how they do it.
• 26:09
  Do you? Do you?
• 26:09
  Yeah, as you say, do you do a lottery?
• 26:11
  Do you rank people? But at least it's not, you know,
• 26:15
  the ticket prices aren't before legislation comes in being
• 26:19
  inflated by the fact that someone who doesn't live in this
• 26:22
  country has set up a bot farm which has raided the virtual
• 26:27
  ticket office. So interesting.
• 26:30
  We haven't done anything about TikTok for a while.
• 26:32
  Here's a TikTok story. If you use TikTok or the TikTok
• 26:37
  app, you can now stream full songs, full music songs rather
• 26:42
  than just the clips there's. There's one catch though, I
• 26:45
  believe. There is you have to be on Apple
• 26:47
  Music and it doesn't work here in the UK yet or US.
• 26:49
  But this is interesting though, this is, this is another one, a
• 26:52
  little story, but it it illustrates a trend of how
• 26:54
  things are going. So yeah, there's a new button in
• 26:57
  TikTok in some countries that lets you, when you when you
• 26:59
  watch a video and discover a song that's in the background,
• 27:02
  you can click a little playful song button and listen to the
• 27:06
  full song from Apple Music. Because you can't do that in
• 27:08
  TikTok at the moment. It didn't have a licence to
• 27:10
  stream you full songs. So.
• 27:13
  In the past, you could click a button and it would take you out
• 27:15
  into your streaming app if you'd set it up.
• 27:17
  So it's just kind of so it's a little thing that cuts down that
• 27:19
  friction. But and it does it, it does tie
• 27:23
  into what music industry likes, which is that like people, lots
• 27:26
  of people are hearing music in TikTok, you know, and they're
• 27:31
  maybe watching. I mean, that Fleetwood Mac is a
• 27:33
  famous example of a guy skateboarding down the street
• 27:35
  drinking cranberry juice. But they were listening to
• 27:37
  Fleetwood Mac and it sent the song back into the charts.
• 27:40
  So this stuff has happened before.
• 27:41
  Like if you go, if your song goes viral on TikTok, it can
• 27:45
  lead to an increase in streams elsewhere.
• 27:47
  But there's kind of a few steps in between that someone has to
• 27:49
  go to go and find the song. So this the, the logical
• 27:53
  extension of this is it launches in more countries and it adds
• 27:56
  the other streaming service. So if you're a Spotify
• 27:58
  subscriber or a YouTube subscriber or Amazon, you can do
• 28:00
  this too. And it could be a big, it could
• 28:04
  be a good thing, I think, because at the moment there is
• 28:07
  this this this worry that you don't get a lot of money from
• 28:10
  your song being in TikTok videos.
• 28:11
  And the argument has always been, yeah, about promotion.
• 28:14
  You know, you get more streams elsewhere, possibly look at not
• 28:17
  Fleetwood Mac did. And it's a bit unscientific, but
• 28:21
  it would be a good thing because then again, to, to, to come back
• 28:24
  to our idea about, about like people actively liking stuff.
• 28:29
  If you just are watching endless TikTok videos, you know, swiping
• 28:32
  your way down your feed, not really paying attention to
• 28:35
  music, fair enough. But if something, if a song
• 28:37
  stops you in your tracks and you go, I want to hear what that is.
• 28:40
  It would be great if there's literally just one button to go
• 28:43
  and listen to it in full. It might, it could turn some of
• 28:47
  this passive listening that we kind of worry about into people
• 28:50
  going, Ah, and in that song, I'm going to follow that artist.
• 28:53
  I'm going to find out more about them.
• 28:55
  And then, you know, everything becomes a bit positive.
• 28:57
  So it's a good thing. But it's for now, it's a limited
• 28:59
  experiment. Many people listening to this
• 29:01
  won't be able to get it in TikTok if they're on TikTok.
• 29:05
  But yeah. And finally, for this week, back
• 29:09
  to our friends at UMG. Universal Music Group have
• 29:13
  signed a, well, a hot but not so new band.
• 29:17
  This month, UMG have signed The Wiggles.
• 29:21
  The Wiggles is that have you ever had to say that phrase,
• 29:25
  that word, that two word phrase? Before what?
• 29:28
  The Wiggles. In a broadcast.
• 29:31
  Just, but just before I give you my tutney worth on this, you
• 29:35
  know the Wiggles are Australian. They are, they're Australian
• 29:39
  and, and basically, how would you describe the Wiggles?
• 29:42
  Well, they're, they're kind of children.
• 29:45
  The children's pop music, they don't have TV show music.
• 29:48
  They make top kids. They wear colourful Star Trek
• 29:51
  style outfits, don't they? So there's like red wiggle and
• 29:53
  blue wiggle and green wiggle. So they easily identify ball and
• 29:57
  they've been going since 1991 and they are literally one of
• 30:00
  the biggest things outside Australia too, I think for for
• 30:03
  kids. Oh, it's like no one will
• 30:04
  remember the TV programme unless you're of a certain age.
• 30:07
  Rainbow. But it's like Rainbow meets the
• 30:09
  new seekers. I mean, both.
• 30:10
  There's one. There's two for the kids.
• 30:12
  But I, I know this is a throwaway story, but you see,
• 30:16
  for me, unwittingly, this says so much, though, about what is
• 30:20
  happening in a certain part of the music industry at the
• 30:23
  moment. And I obviously why have they
• 30:25
  signed Wiggles? Well, because it makes absolute
• 30:28
  business sense, I guess. Give us the stats because this
• 30:31
  is the, this is the, this will be the reason there.
• 30:34
  Yeah. They've had more than 4 billion
• 30:35
  music streams and 6 billion YouTube views.
• 30:38
  Yeah. Over their career and they're
• 30:41
  one of those bands that regenerate as well.
• 30:43
  So I think the original Wiggles are all, you know, too old to
• 30:46
  perform now. And they've just got these,
• 30:47
  they've replaced them with younger Wiggles.
• 30:49
  So now they've got they're all kind of young and fresh faced.
• 30:51
  Yeah, so it's a. Brand, it's a, it's like a
• 30:53
  franchise and a brand not, not like a group of four people.
• 30:57
  I know, I know, he said with a sigh of disappointed
• 31:01
  resignation. But you know what this says?
• 31:03
  You know what, this says two things that this says 1 once.
• 31:08
  I mean, I know they're an ongoing group and as you say,
• 31:11
  you know, regenerating like Doctor Who, but it's heritage
• 31:15
  artists again, it's, it's what it's proven artists prove actual
• 31:19
  proven artists who are increasingly tempting for record
• 31:24
  labels to get involved with because this is the it's the
• 31:27
  blueprint. I know you know this, this first
• 31:29
  started probably with probably back in the 90s when, you know,
• 31:33
  there were various labels set up to sign bands have been dropped
• 31:37
  by majors, but still had a certain size following that you
• 31:41
  can make money out of. But you know, it is now this is
• 31:44
  more and more prevalent. Let's invest in something that
• 31:47
  we know people have liked and will still like.
• 31:51
  And in Wiggles case, again, the audience will keep coming.
• 31:54
  You know, it will just be a different audience.
• 31:56
  It's not like it's one audience will grow old with them, but it
• 32:00
  it comes back to why risk signing something new that might
• 32:04
  fail when you can sign something which is nailed on to recoup
• 32:09
  however much they've signed them for.
• 32:11
  You can see at the end of it, right?
• 32:13
  We will have made our money back by this point unless something,
• 32:17
  something unforeseen happens. That's one thing.
• 32:20
  And the other thing based on those stats, and I know we've,
• 32:24
  you know, there's always, you know, there's always been
• 32:27
  novelty records. There's always been, you know,
• 32:29
  kids acts which have been popular, but but now these days
• 32:33
  that it's all down to isn't it? It's UMG have looked at YouTube
• 32:37
  and thought these these these kids videos, they properly coin
• 32:43
  it in, don't they? I mean, there's money in that
• 32:45
  under sevens market and so and that, you know, having looked
• 32:51
  at, you know, you're quite good at bringing up, you know,
• 32:54
  things, things, things that sell well with the under fives.
• 32:59
  But obviously now labels are going, yeah, well, let's have a
• 33:02
  piece of let's have a piece of that.
• 33:03
  Why would we bother signing a band with leather trousers is an
• 33:07
  attitude when we know we can make money out of something
• 33:11
  which has a captive audience. If you're a band with leather
• 33:13
  trials and attitude, maybe you need to get some colourful
• 33:16
  T-shirts and start running songs about animals with the
• 33:18
  comparative. I mean, it's it's so This is
• 33:21
  why, because I know I always mentioned things like Baby Shark
• 33:23
  and Wheels on the Bus, but I am so fascinated by it.
• 33:24
  I think I feel like parents know and that, yeah, my child.
• 33:28
  But this is the thing like where a lot of the industry is
• 33:31
  worrying a bit. And we've talked about this idea
• 33:33
  of passive listening, haven't we?
• 33:34
  And people just playing a playlist and not really caring,
• 33:36
  isn't it? No, doesn't do that.
• 33:39
  Kids, Kids go play that again, play that again, play it for a
• 33:43
  12th time in a row because I love it so much.
• 33:46
  And so there is, there is money there, there's repeat things.
• 33:49
  And it's so, yeah, I think I think you're right though, it's
• 33:52
  a it's a proven brand. And it's one of those things
• 33:55
  where it's a live entertainment brand.
• 33:57
  They play these big concerts and pack out.
• 33:59
  You know, big they're doing, they're doing the Excel Centre
• 34:02
  in London twice, they're doing Birmingham Symphony Hall.
• 34:05
  Their UK tour is, as you say, 10 very big dates in April.
• 34:11
  Yeah. In Australia, I think is, I
• 34:14
  mean, I'm, I need to talk to Australians about this, but
• 34:16
  there's been a lot of talk this week about this year about how
• 34:19
  there's worry in Australia about local artists aren't getting,
• 34:22
  aren't doing so well on streaming locally.
• 34:24
  So Australians are streaming more American acts and so on.
• 34:26
  The Wiggles are kind of the thing that bucks a trend.
• 34:28
  The Wiggles are the one that lots of Australians are playing.
• 34:32
  And yeah, if you're, if you're in the Australian just thinking
• 34:35
  about bands and new artists, the fact that Wiggles are so big, I
• 34:39
  mean, it doesn't really, It doesn't really affect you
• 34:41
  because they're not cannibalising adults who might
• 34:44
  listen to you. But it is.
• 34:46
  I just sort of highlight, isn't it the thing, Yeah.
• 34:47
  What's the biggest band in Australia right now?
• 34:50
  Someone's been going since 1991 making songs for kids.
• 34:53
  Yeah, I mean as a say, a stupid business.
• 34:55
  But you know what they're saying, they're scientific.
• 34:57
  They're going to be putting stuff out through Republic
• 34:58
  records in the US or the kids bit of that.
• 35:02
  So they're label mates of Taylor Swift and Nicki Minaj and the
• 35:04
  weekend now, which is a is an amusing little side thing of
• 35:08
  that. Look, as a man of a certain age,
• 35:11
  I'm definitely more Wombles than Wiggles.
• 35:13
  And that's it for this. I don't know how we've ended up
• 35:17
  here. Thank you very much for
• 35:18
  listening. If you are enjoying the show,
• 35:20
  please do spread the word. You can also support this Fire
• 35:23
  our Patreon page. In fact, if you sign up to be a
• 35:25
  super fan, you get to join us for our weekly lock in.
• 35:30
  You can stay behind after hours. You get an extra 15 minutes or
• 35:33
  so of bonus material this week remixing your favorite band.
• 35:39
  How how much of gold discs worth and artists who've taken umbrage
• 35:43
  at their pictures on Wikipedia that's coming up.
• 35:47
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• 35:50
  patreon.com/the Price of Music. Alternatively, if you'd like to
• 35:54
  get in touch with us, just send us an e-mail.
• 35:56
  Thank you to everyone who's been in touch.
• 35:59
  We should say and asked us a few questions.
• 36:01
  We are working on some of those for possibly next week and the
• 36:04
  week after. But anything you don't
• 36:06
  understand about how the industry works that we might be
• 36:09
  to clear up for you, drop usalinethepriceofmusicpodcast@gmail.com.
• 36:14
  Until next week, Cheerio.