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Was That Racist? · The Uplifters

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Uplifters, you know how much I love experimenting and trying new things.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's how I build courage capital every day by testing and learning
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: and discovering what really works for me.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm so excited to introduce you to Join the Tryb.
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  SPEAKER_00: The founder is a total uplifter who lovingly curates products from emerging founders
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  SPEAKER_00: with seriously inspiring stories.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried so many of the Join the Tryb products at this point, and I've
• 0:36
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• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: the Tryb website support a woman who's building something meaningful.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's really like getting to be a part of someone's uplifting journey
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: while discovering greatness.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Check out Join the Tryb and use code UPLIFTER20 for 20% off the website for your first order.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's jointhetryb.com, T-R-Y-B.com.
• 1:05
  [music]
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to The Uplifters Podcast.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Miranda Savas and I've spent the last 20 years at the intersection
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  SPEAKER_00: of behavior change research and coaching,
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  SPEAKER_00: helping midlife women do big, brave things.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Every week here we talk about different flavors of courage.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Uplifters.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she's applied her evidence-based practices in a wide variety of industries,
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  SPEAKER_00: ranging from higher education to financial services to technology and retail
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  SPEAKER_00: and professional sports and in organizations like American Express, Burberry.
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  SPEAKER_00: She is known for blending research,
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  SPEAKER_00: pop culture,
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  SPEAKER_00: and corporate DEI practices into some really unique insights and perspectives.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's all super actionable.
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  SPEAKER_00: Her work has been And featured in the Atlantic,
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  SPEAKER_00: USA Today, Fast Company, Harvard Business Review, and many more.
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  SPEAKER_00: Her first book that I was just alluding to, Was That Racist?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: How to Detect,
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  SPEAKER_00: Interrupt, and Unlearn Bias in Everyday Life was released in January of this year.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I just couldn't be more excited to have this time with you today.
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  SPEAKER_00: How are you today?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm great.
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  Yeah.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like no qualifications necessary.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm feeling really good.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm like scanning through all of the kind of categories and coming up roses in every single one.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm great.
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  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
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  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm well.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm well.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I had something I was supposed to record immediately before this and the person no-showed.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had like this little 40-minute block that wasn't booked.
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  SPEAKER_00: And one of those really beautiful moments where you just follow the impulse.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I went and I knocked on my daughter's door to tell her something.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I opened it and she was crying because she was watching this TV show
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  SPEAKER_00: about this woman's mother dying.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she was just like trying to process all those Big,
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  SPEAKER_00: big feelings about loss and grief and the mortality of the people we love most.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, man, I
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  SPEAKER_02: love the universe.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love it when these...
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  SPEAKER_00: That's so like wonderful.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: How old is your daughter?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: She is 17 and she's like going off into the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so like, it makes it even more special, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: That I got to happen to walk in at a moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: I really wouldn't have witnessed had that other person not shown up.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty good too.
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  SPEAKER_03: So from the other kind of like age,
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  SPEAKER_03: other side of ages,
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  SPEAKER_03: I have a three-year-old who is Has been really struggling with me not being around.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so I went on a book tour of Eastern Iowa.
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  SPEAKER_03: So cool.
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  SPEAKER_03: A couple weeks ago, my mom is from Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
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  SPEAKER_03: And she set up six events for me in five days while I was there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was pretty fantastic.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mom is an uplifter.
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  SPEAKER_03: No, mom is the uplifter.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like, honestly, truly.
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  SPEAKER_03: Love her.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I am usually not away from my daughters.
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  SPEAKER_03: I have a three-year-old and one-year-old.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I was gone for a full week by myself.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was glorious.
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  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was glorious.
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  SPEAKER_03: And when I got back, my older daughter said, Mama, I'm sad.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, why are you sad?
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  SPEAKER_03: She's like, because you weren't here.
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  SPEAKER_03: And for the entire past week that I have been back,
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  SPEAKER_03: she has been telling me spontaneously, like, I'm sad because you were gone.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I had this, like,
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  SPEAKER_03: Moment where I realized, like,
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  SPEAKER_03: how do I do I need to write like I think I do prepare my three year old
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  SPEAKER_03: for managing those big feelings around me not being here
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  SPEAKER_03: because right like one day I won't be and hopefully that is very far out.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so like finding a way to explain to her like mama's always come back.
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  SPEAKER_03: While also knowing like that's not always true and that might not be true even for me.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like write all of these things.
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  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, so I love that you were able to be with your 17 year old as they were processing that.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm figuring it out with my three-year-old.
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't have the answer yet, but I hope I'm around.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are our best teachers though, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: They really are.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then of course I was like, oh my God, like I
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  SPEAKER_00: want my mama to come back.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like she's still here, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: But just all of these things.
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  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's really, really fascinating what children can bring up in us.
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  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what they, like how grounding they are.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, I think sort of an interesting story.
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  SPEAKER_00: Parallel metaphor for your book, in a sense, and the topic, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like having these conversations about the big feelings instead of just quietly simmering.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then children are often pretty good about that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, to be able to say, Mama, I feel this.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it feels big and I don't really know what to do with these feelings
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  SPEAKER_00: and I don't know how to process this and it's not going away just
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  SPEAKER_00: because I told you like, we need to keep having this conversation to figure it out.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it seems very appropriate to the conversation we're going to have about your book.
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  SPEAKER_00: I will say that my daughter ended our conversation with She said,
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  SPEAKER_00: my biggest fear is that something will happen to one of us when we're mad
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  SPEAKER_00: at each other, when we've said something unkind.
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  SPEAKER_00: She said,
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  SPEAKER_00: so just know that whatever is going on in our lives at any time,
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  SPEAKER_00: if that time ever comes, I love you.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: That's incredible.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like what incredible insight and just forethought and compassion.
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  SPEAKER_03: Cause I think,
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I would ever have verbalized it that way,
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  SPEAKER_03: but that's also my biggest fear, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Like I've had periods of estrangement with like friends or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I definitely have been like, what if this is the last interaction that we have had?
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  SPEAKER_03: And I, so I love that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I love that she gave you that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's really, she's wise.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's the smartest person I know.
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  SPEAKER_03: Also, great for the person who no-showed.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you also to that person.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Dave.
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  Thanks, Dave.
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  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So first off, just I loved, loved, loved your book.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we have to talk about the story of how you got to that book because it is one
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  SPEAKER_00: of those kind of little magic moments where the universe was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey, Evelyn, write a book.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've got a path for you that might not have existed otherwise.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that just makes me really sad because this book needed to be written by you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: At this time.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: There are mostly four and five star reviews of my book, which I appreciate.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: There are a handful of like one through three stars.
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  SPEAKER_03: And there's one review that's like sitting in my brain.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's basically like if you've read one DEI book, you've read them all.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I have learned to just like, whatever those.
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  SPEAKER_03: But what I appreciate and what I say to that is,
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  SPEAKER_03: you have never read a book written by Dr. Evelyn R. Carter.
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  SPEAKER_03: So like, you haven't read them all because you didn't read this one.
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  SPEAKER_03: So anyway, I appreciate that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Because like, yeah, I did need to write this book.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I am really glad that the opportunity presented itself and that I was able
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  SPEAKER_03: to just say yes and lean into it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about that for a second.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I...
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  SPEAKER_03: Have always kind of had the idea of writing a book.
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  SPEAKER_03: My dad actually,
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  SPEAKER_03: anytime I would talk to him about something,
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  SPEAKER_03: he'd be like, you
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  SPEAKER_00: should really write a book.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, dad.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like my mom is the uplifter.
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  SPEAKER_03: My dad is also like cheerleader extraordinaire.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's like, everybody needs to hear from you.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, dad.
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  SPEAKER_03: He was right.
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  SPEAKER_03: He was right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Again, go dad.
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  SPEAKER_03: But I have always felt like Hard to break into the publishing space.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I remember once like kind of just looking into what all was required
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  SPEAKER_03: to even put together a book proposal.
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  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it was questions like, you know, kind of, What is your book going to be about?
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  SPEAKER_03: And all that was like, yes, got that.
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  SPEAKER_03: But then there's this whole other piece of like a marketing plan, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Like, how many followers do you have on social media?
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  SPEAKER_03: And how are you going?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are some other books that are kind of similar to yours?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: And what have their sales been like?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, all that.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to have an agent in order to... All of these things that are barriers.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure the people in power would say that they're necessary barriers
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  SPEAKER_03: to make sure that good stuff gets out there.
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  SPEAKER_03: But they were barriers to me.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so I basically...
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  SPEAKER_03: Did something that my dad also told me to do,
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  SPEAKER_03: which is basically every time I had an experience or something
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  SPEAKER_03: that was really positive,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: negative or whatever,
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  SPEAKER_03: I would always either like record a voice note to myself or jot down something
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  SPEAKER_03: in my journal or post-it notes or like whatever, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: So I had this like backlog of stuff of experiences that have happened waiting to go somewhere.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I really love the imprint of Hachette and of Little Brown called Little Brown Spark.
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  SPEAKER_03: And they have published a number of books by people and on topics
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  SPEAKER_03: that I have really liked for a long time.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so I actually just followed them on Instagram.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like I was like, yeah, why not follow a
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  SPEAKER_02: publishing house on
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  SPEAKER_03: Instagram?
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  SPEAKER_03: And one day I was scrolling through my feed and I saw a post that said,
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  SPEAKER_03: basically,
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  SPEAKER_03: are you a psychologist who is a person from a group that is underrepresented in
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  SPEAKER_03: the publishing industry that has never published a popular press book before,
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  SPEAKER_03: but might want to?
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  SPEAKER_03: If so...
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  SPEAKER_03: Submit your proposal for the Little Brown Spark and Psychotherapy Networker New Voices Award.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it was this award that they were putting forward
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: to highlight underrepresented books, underrepresented scholars in...
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so all I had to do was put together a proposal that included a summary of
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  SPEAKER_03: the book that I wanted to write, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Like a narrative summary,
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  SPEAKER_03: a chapter outline with like a paragraph per chapter,
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  SPEAKER_03: a sample chapter,
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  SPEAKER_03: which since I had been,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: thinking about this for a while,
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  SPEAKER_03: I had something that was kind of already in process and a CV.
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  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have to have an agent.
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  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have to have a marketing plan, right?
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  SPEAKER_03: And so I...
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  SPEAKER_03: Saw it in like April and the deadline was in October.
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  SPEAKER_03: Started working on it.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then I stopped.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I told myself, like, there's no way I'm going to get this.
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  SPEAKER_03: There are people who are far more qualified than I am.
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  SPEAKER_03: Who's going to want to read a book about races, right?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like all of the things.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I sat on it for the entire summer.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then I have a friend of mine who I had worked with when I was a consultant
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  SPEAKER_03: who posted on LinkedIn.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: hey, I have been doing marketing and copywriting for my entire career in-house.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm now going to be doing that as a consultant.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you have a project that you have been struggling to bring to life but want to...
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so I reached out to them and I was like,
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  SPEAKER_03: I have this opportunity to submit a proposal in less than two weeks.
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  SPEAKER_03: I think your post was the thing that reminded me that like,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to hate myself
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  SPEAKER_00: if I don't do this.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like, send me your chapter.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see what it is.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like, it's really good, Evelyn.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And my husband was like, Evelyn, you have to do this.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: And all my friends were like, how can we help you do this?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I did.
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  SPEAKER_03: And I got it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it was amazing.
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  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, really like truly a magic moment of the universe.
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  SPEAKER_03: Just being like, go, go do this thing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so I really tried to Remember that feeling because, yeah,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: it was also a wonderful testament to just being ready for whatever
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: the opportunity might be and doing it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's how.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love that story on many, many, many levels.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I spent a lot of time like really looking at the table of contents of your book and
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: the chapters as I was reading it and thinking about like what the arc was
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: of this book.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: While I'm of course writing my book, also an imprint of Hachette.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll be like in a family together.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_02: Publish sisters.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Publish sisters, yes.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about how perfectly that story that you just told actually mapped
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: through the chapters of the book I'm writing.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was thrilling.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you guys, we're going to listen to this again in a year and a half.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a book in real life, which is, yeah, it's validating, energizing.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for anyone listening and certainly for me too,
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  SPEAKER_00: and even in the midst of this, It is this real encouragement, like do the thing.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can only win if you enter.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd been writing a book for a really long time and all those little notes
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: and we don't give ourselves credit for that work.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so cool too,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: because there were so many of those little stories that I didn't get to put into
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: the book, right?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Because they got edited out or whatever.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so I have a second book.
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  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, and that's also something that was a newer realization.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_03: Recently, I was doing some kind of presentation or something.
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  SPEAKER_03: And when somebody introduced me,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: they were like,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: and you know, this is Dr. Evelyn Carter and her first book was that recent.
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  SPEAKER_03: I was like, first book?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: First?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: First implies that there's more coming.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was like...
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so this whole experience for me also has been just about kind of figuring out
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  SPEAKER_03: who I am,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: how I identify the stories that I have told myself in the past and the stories
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  SPEAKER_03: that I want to be true for the future, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so like five years ago,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: if you would ask me if I was going to write a book,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'd be like, yeah, I mean, sure, whatever.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like my dad says I should.
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  SPEAKER_03: But now it's like I did.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe...
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: A second and a third.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so it's been pretty, it's been pretty fun.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm excited for you and your book happened and just like to believe in myself
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: because of my community.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: What does entrepreneurship look like for you?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what did that courage look like in action to make that shift?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it's interesting because it is again,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: the universe kind of pushing in a direction that was like, You gotta do it, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: So as you read in my bio introduction, I am a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I love talking about racism,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: about bias, about how it shows up and what to do about it within organizations.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I have been a consultant doing that for several years and
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: then more recently was working in-house on a diversity, equity,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: and inclusion team that because of all of the things that are currently happening in
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: the United States, went through a rebrand.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: The rebrand, depending on who you ask, was not changing the work.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: It was just changing the name, the title.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: But everything that I was doing was very much equity-based systems change, right?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like the programs that I was developing and running were wonderful.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Ones that were meant to uncover gaps in experiences between people
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: from underrepresented groups,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: which by the way, the company didn't let me say anymore, and dominant groups, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then when unearthing those gaps,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: figure out what interventions to develop so that those wouldn't happen,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: which we couldn't develop because that would be seen as unfair preference
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: or whatnot.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was like eating me alive from the inside out.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: Every day.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, I have two kids.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: I got a husband.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: We got a house.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: I have a lifestyle, like all of these things.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so I kind of feeling the tension between kind of who I was supposed to be
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: at work and who I knew I am in my professional life and kind
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: of my own personal integrity.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: I started becoming way more vocal on LinkedIn
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: and basically just like saying all kinds of things.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think I remember like After I had a conversation at work
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: about how we don't say diversity, equity,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: and inclusion is okay in some contexts anymore,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I immediately went to LinkedIn and I was like,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: here's what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: So my LinkedIn, this is so weird, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: But my LinkedIn became my professional alter ego for who I was in my day job.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it got to the point where the The chasm between those personas was widening.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think probably the company that I was working for had lower tolerance for it
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: as days went on, as did I.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so we parted ways.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: But it took a leap because I figured out pretty early on that.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: That I didn't want to pivot out of doing diversity,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: equity, and inclusion work with the title, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like there are people,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: and I respect this as a strategy, like,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: and I actually say,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: like, you can do DEI work without being in a quote-unquote DEI title.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's very valuable to have people who are committed to diversity,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: equity,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: inclusion,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: justice,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: all of these things who are working in talent acquisition positions and
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: who are working in IT, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like work in all the places.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: For me...
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: I want DEI in the title.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: That is what I do.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so I now am doing, I'm back to consulting.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: I am leading workshops for managers who want to understand how
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: to create inclusive environments in their workplaces.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: I am responding to RFPs.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: I request for proposals from organizations that are looking for training
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: for their members on how to advance inclusion.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: I am supporting clients who literally call me and they're like,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: can I talk through this strategic issue we are having and get your guidance over
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: the course of this next hour?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so entrepreneurship for me has been...
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: Has allowed me the flexibility to do what it is that I love to do,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: which is talk unapologetically about the ways that bias shows up in our society
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: and how to fix them.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it allows me to work with the individuals and companies who are still committed
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: to that work.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: And because of the variety of organizations that I am working with,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: I am able to sustain the work in a way
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: that would have been different had I been in-house in a single organization.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when you say sustain,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: you mean sustain because of the company's willingness to sustain the engagement
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: or your desire to engage because the work is continuously changing and evolving?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: So all of those things and also sustained financially, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because if I have 20 companies who are like,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: I need this kind of engagement,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: this kind of engagement, I get to have that variety of like, oh, okay.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: With all of you collectively, this works as a financial future for myself and for my family.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: And also...
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's a lot of narrative out there right now that like DEI is dead.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: And what I have started saying is like,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: DEI is never going to be dead as long as I am still alive.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, I'm holding the torch, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: But the sustaining for me part,
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: like for me and my soul is the joy that comes with realizing how false
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: that narrative is.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because there are still companies who are calling me and emailing me
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: and putting out requests for proposals for this kind of strategic
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: and educational work.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that just feels really, really important to remember.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so it really does keep me going.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: So it feeds me like in a soul way and also feeds my bank account in a good way too.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, both important.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, and often we skip one or the other, therein lies the challenge.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So as you talk about the timing aspect of this,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I know this has been a big conversation around your book because there was,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: there was a surge of Right after George Floyd,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: everyone started reading books that had been written long before and talking
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: about them.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we were putting black screens up on our socials and we were marching
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: and we were engaged in a conversation that felt brave and messy and bold and overdue
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: and...
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then in the last couple of years,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I always think about my mother and her,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: marching signs at those times that said like,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe I'm still protesting this shit.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's been a lot of just exhaustion and overwhelm,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of depleted energy where people have a general sensibility of like,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: oh my gosh, like, Things only get worse the more we engage, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: there's this backlash that has happened in response to all of the momentum
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: and energy and investment.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure there's 50 other things in the soup.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've had a few months now to talk about this book and talk
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: about this moment that is so divisive.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're getting new flavors of it every week.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: So now as you look again at the universe and just be like, oh yeah, this was the moment.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: What makes this moment feel so right for this book?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: So part of what makes this moment feel so right is that I talk to a lot of people
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: who do feel the overwhelm and the kind of despair and they're like, really?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like this again?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: And what I tell them is my book is...
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: What you can read if you are trying to figure out what there is that you
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: can do.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so from a very practical standpoint, I wrote my book with every page, truly.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thinking about how can somebody pick this up,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: read it and not have to wait until the end of the book to like find the optimism or
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: the action.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: But like one of my favorite stories actually came from a friend of mine who was
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: an early reader of my book.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: And he said,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: he was like,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: I had to put the book down like in the middle of this chapter and send
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: a text message to a friend of mine because we were talking about something
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: and I needed her to know what I had just read because it responded to, right?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like And so I want my book to be so useful that you can't read it in one sitting
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: because it stops you and you're like,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: oh, I have to take action from this thing, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's why from a very practical standpoint of my book, like I want it to be actionable.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: I want people to read it and feel empowered and inspired that they
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: as individuals can do something because we can all do something.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: The other reason that I think why my book right now is that I actually take
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: a really zoomed out view of what this moment in time looks like.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I think about the entire,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: there's this MLK quote that I love that talks about how the arc
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: the Lord universe is long, but it bends toward justice.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: And we are, I think, if we look narrowly at 2026 or 2025, right, or like 2020 and beyond,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: This is a slice in time in a far bigger picture.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: And when we zoom out and think of that bigger picture,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: like we're on the bend toward justice because we're making progress.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that really helps me.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so taking that zoomed out view,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: both in terms of like how I'm writing my book and some of the sources that I pull in
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: and some of the stories that I tell and some of the things that I reference,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: Helped me realize like,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: yes, if we look at right now where we are, there's a lot of work to do.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: And if we zoom out there, we can see that there has been progress.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: There is still so much more, right?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: It reminds me,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: so I was talking to over the years that I have,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: I've always known that I wanted to be a mother and that I wanted to,
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know, have children.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember talking to someone And they were like,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: I just can't imagine having kids right now.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like it just is a horrible time to have kids.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw a version of this conversation recently online where it was a white woman
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: who was like, there has never been a worse time in history to have children.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think people who decide to have children right now are just,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know, like selfish and dah, dah, dah, dah.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a black person, black woman who responded and was like, really?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Never in history?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Never in history.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: For us, ever, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it was this wonderful moment for me.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: That is the difference between taking a very narrow view
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: of what is happening right now versus zooming out and understanding what it is
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: to live through the arc of the moral universe.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: And there have undoubtedly been worse times to have children,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: particularly for Black women like me.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think with my book,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: my hope is that as we zoom out and look at the arc of the moral universe,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: that my book will be one of those that people ultimately reference, right?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: Five years from now or whatever,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: like, oh yes, during that time when people needed a guidebook about how to...
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: Stay motivated about how to find their personal inspiration for doing
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: the right thing,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: about how to stop being so tongue-tied and figuring out like, what do I say?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: What do I do?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: And to do something.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: Was That Racist by Dr.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: Evelyn Carter was the book that helped fuel that revolution to get us to
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: where we are now.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And undoubtedly it will be in so many, the conversation is happening.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just in your answer, like you very consciously chose a conversation of hope.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And to create that sense of possibility.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I love where your book began as somebody who's spent my career
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: in behavior change,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: science and research and thinks about growth mindset all day, every day.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: That was the first, like, close the door, go have the conversation with my family conversation.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about growth mindset through the lens of racism.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think you nailed something that I had never thought of in that way before.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: You are absolutely right that I think about growth mindset all day long,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: but wasn't thinking about my own growth mindset in this particular area.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I absolutely let it limit me in certain conversations.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that fatalism that we're talking about right in the arc of history,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: like that, that requires a growth mindset.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: It requires a belief that change can happen.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: And as I'm writing for Midlife Women, I'm writing about growth mindset all day too, because...
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like my Substack today was you can't teach an old dog new tricks
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: and other BS I've believed because I actually did believe you couldn't teach
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: an old dog new tricks.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then I got a dog.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: Or developed to assess whether people had more of a growth mindset or a fixed mindset.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: One of the questions literally is the extent to which you endorse the belief
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just really funny.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Literally,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: it's a very
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: valid way to measure whether you have a growth mindset or
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: a fixed mindset.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: But yes, you can.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can't.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: In fact,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: dogs are really good students when they're older
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: because they have better attention spans.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just like midlife women are really good at learning new things.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have all of the history and the experience.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: All of the experience.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hear it in your answer about the book and I hear it in your answer about parenting
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: and I hear it in, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's all the same thing.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we do have to get really specific about how we apply that lens
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: because it grows mindset,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Carol would say is a,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: it is a tendency, but it still must be applied to each individual circumstance.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to also like notice when
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: a growth mindset versus fixed mindset more is coming up, right?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I actually, during my Eastern Iowa book tour a couple weeks ago, I had a conversation.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: It was just like wonderful.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: I was at an Episcopal church and they have like a book club that they do.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I went and I did a reading about how to,
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: from my chapter seven of my book, about how to confront bias and had a Q&A.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: And somebody asked me a question basically that was like, what do you do?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: When there is somebody who you need to call out about their bias,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: but like, you know, it's not going to do any good.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it was one of those questions that I love because I could write like from
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: a very practical standpoint, I was like, I am in...
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: Iowa,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: where there is literally legislation that limits what people are saying and teaching
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: about in schools,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: all of the things that I am experiencing in Southern California that are choices
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: that people are making.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: In Iowa, to some extent, it's not a choice.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have to in order to comply with the law.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: And what I still thought was interesting is that I was like, well...
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's a pretty fixed mindset way to approach that conversation.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I actually did was I said to them,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, what is it that makes you think that this person is incapable of change?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I said,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: I was like,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: maybe what you need to start with first is your own mindset about what's possible.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if you interrogate whether you have a more growth,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: whether you can have a more growth mindset about this person,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: that might shift the way that you are thinking about approaching a conversation
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: with them.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: we're not any,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: none of us are ever going to have the experience of seeing somebody's mind change
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: from like one end of the spectrum to the other within
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: a single 15 minute conversation.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how behavior change, attitude change works.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: But we can plant a seed.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if I believe that there is nothing that I can do,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even going to try to plant the seed.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: And if I don't plant the seed,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: then somebody else who comes by a little bit later and waters that ground
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: that I just planted isn't going to find anything there to water, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: and I could see they were like,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: and that's what I love about the growth mindset about bias research is
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: that it's Shows us that if we believe that change is possible,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: we are more likely to call out bias because we believe it's actually going
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: to do something.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: And if we believe that change is possible,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: we also are more accepting when somebody gives us feedback because we're like,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're not telling me that I'm a bad person.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: You're telling me that I did something that needs to be addressed and that I can address it.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you didn't think I could change, you wouldn't have told me.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I love that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that's also why I started off my book with that chapter,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: because it's really important to have that message that change is possible
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: to motivate them to try to change.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we just dig our heels in.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: You say it over and over in the book, thankfully, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we need to hear it.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: We flee, right?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Our fight or flight mechanism comes in.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: We feel shame.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: We feel like, oh shit, I did something wrong.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do something wrong.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: This won't work.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is hopeless.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Any of those thoughts, right?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Send us on a path of moving away from the challenge.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're saying is, no, lean into the challenge.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Be brave.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that I really loved about writing this book is that I got
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: to take my approach that I do when I'm leading workshops,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: which is, you know, I'm a trained improviser.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a musical theater, like nerd.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: I love performing and I like pop culture too.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: I like bringing in stories and experiences that help to illustrate concepts
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: that have nothing to do with racism per se, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so in my book,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: I also talk about my experience where I was ziplining and I connect that feeling.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's really lovely because...
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: it's like, yeah,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: maybe it's hard for you to imagine leaning into the discomfort and the fear
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: of talking about racism.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: But like we all have had experiences, maybe not with ziplining, right?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: But with something where we've been like, this is terrifying.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: You do it anyway.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I want people to do it anyway when it comes to racism and having conversations.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it anyway with racism.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: Do it anyway with the conversations about racism.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: The brave conversations, the things that feel scary.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's an interesting example too,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: because last week there was this big media sensation about the poor woman
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: in Costa Rica who went bungee jumping and the guys threw her off the cliff.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did not see this.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's horrifying.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: They did not give it to me and I'm glad because that's terrifying.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's horrible.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is actually my point.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: They threw her off the cliff.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't attached and they literally just threw her to her death in front of her fiance.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was horrible.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I had taken a week off of social media.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was looking at more news.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I realized at the end of the week,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, I just found a lot more things to fear this week.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm never ziplining.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm never bungee jumping.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's because those are the stories I was hearing.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the way our media is designed for divisiveness and for fear.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And to deplete our hope and courage by showing us like what's the worst that can happen.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's another thing I really love about
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: the book is you continuously say like, yeah, it's going to be messy.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this didn't go well.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we learn from it?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Let's put our big girl pants on
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: and learn from it.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: But I also, you know, what's interesting about that really tragic example.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that awful?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that there's so much there that I think is also analogous to how I think about this work.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: So what I heard from you is that the people who were supposed
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: to be keeping this woman safe as she did this very scary thing.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Abdicated responsibility.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: They went on autopilot, I think.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: And for me,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: what I think about myself as a diversity, equity,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: inclusion practitioner,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: as somebody whose whole job it is to help nurture people to do the scary thing,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: I actually really reject the notion that I am pushing anybody into conversations
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: that they're not ready for.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: I will create,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: but what I will do is make sure that the setting is Literally safe to do that,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: So like, I'm going to make sure that you are buckled into your, you know, security equipment.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: I am going to tell you what you might experience so that you know what you expect.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to tell you that you have the capacity to handle the discomfort and the fear.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I am also going to celebrate you when you have done it.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: That said,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: if I ever from a person,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: fear like I'm not ready,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: I can't do what I also know is that pushing them too hard can lead
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: to their metaphorical death, right?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: They might say, I'm never doing this again, or I can't ever do this again.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want that to happen either.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's just so much there about that, right?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: That like when I think about my responsibility,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: I want to help nurture conversations that are going to lead to people taking action,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: changing their behavior,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: changing their mindset and being more engaged,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: not less engaged in their community and in their personal spheres of influence.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I take that role very seriously.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that is something that I hope comes through my book, right?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: That I'm not pushing you off of the cliff and being like, good luck.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm saying you have the resources to do this.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And what you need to do is decide to take that step off.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I promise you, promise you, got your back.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: That is such an important distinction too,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: because you are empowering your reader to put on the safety harness as well.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: And not to use the word abdicate, not to abdicate our own responsibility for our safety either.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: But to say like, okay,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: how do you feel confident and comfortable taking this brave step
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: and knowing you're supported?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it brought me back to an experience I had years ago working with two friends.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: We were doing some DEI work and companies and it was a real privilege to be
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: the white member of this team.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I said something in one of our trainings that someone else and
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: a participant wrote later and explained didn't feel good to her.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it was one of those times where it was absolutely so well-intentioned and such
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: a matter of ignorance that And you talk a lot about like the tear responses and like
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: the...
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: I literally think I cried for two weeks over this every day
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: because I felt such deep levels of shame and embarrassment.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: I also felt sort of abandoned in a way.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt like...
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: So on the outside, it was a lot to process.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it took, I mean, I cried for two weeks and then I like worked on it for two years.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: That one experience, which like, I think it says a lot about a lot of things.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: In terms though of like how much I hadn't thought about and how much I had to learn.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it felt like it was such a hard experience and such an important one.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it'll continue to inform how I think about myself and my choice
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: of my whole family learned from it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like we all learned a lot from this because it was a big fucking deal in our world.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time, I was probably in a position I wasn't prepared to be in there.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I wasn't ready to do that work.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of got ahead of my own feet and my own readiness and willingness to learn
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: and be there.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: so when I think about your answer there,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: and certainly I thought about this a lot during the book, reading the book as well.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I wouldn't take it back though.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would take back the thing I said.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Learning.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't take back the learning.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: your audience member who said,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask this even though I don't know what this person's response is going to be
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: or I fear that it will be negative?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're never going to regret bravery.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: We're never going to regret learning.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: It may hurt.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: It may hurt,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_03: but it's kind of like,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think the thing that,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: you mentioned like you cried about it for two weeks and then you like did that.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: So listen, I am somebody like I say, I cry for everything.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm five foot two and a half.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_03: I am a very big personality.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've often said that like my emotions just come out through my eyes
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: because there's nowhere else for it to go.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like my body is like mapped out.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm happy, I cry.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm sad, if I'm angry, it's always crying.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: What I think is important about the tears,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: particularly when they come from a white woman, right?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Is that those tears do not become more important than the proverbial tears of
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: the person who experienced the harm, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I love about what you said is like,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: I cried and I felt the things and then I got to work and I worked and I tried
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: to fix it.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily with that person, right?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: Wrote the feedback, but to make sure that it wasn't going to happen again.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: What I also love is that you said that it made you feel like you felt embarrassed
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: and like isolated.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that what happened is that it turned into a learning moment,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: not just for you, but for your family as well.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: And there is something I think so powerful about remembering that shame is meant
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: to be an isolating emotion and But that one of the best things about learning is
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: that,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: especially in the writing as a parent,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: part of what is so wonderful about parenting is that if you can find a way
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: to impart some of the lessons that you learned the hard way as you were growing up
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: to your children, you can prevent They will have different hard lessons, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: But not those same ones.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I also think is so powerful about learning.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: if I can find a way to get past the embarrassment and the isolation and the shame
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: that I feel,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: I can find a way to talk about what I learned With the people who are around me so
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: that hopefully they learn through it too.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that process actually helps keep you from feeling isolated because you found
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: a community,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: you found connection, you found a way to make this a shared experience of growth.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really wonderful.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think the most valuable thing about it was that,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: that we just sort of normalized making mistakes in that space,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: the way we've normalized making mistakes with math or making mistakes
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: with gardening, right?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like low stakes stuff.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: We like we're very conscious as a family culture and to a less degree as a culture
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: in general at normalizing mistakes.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: But like this is high stakes stuff and we're going to make mistakes.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so that shame is a stopping mechanism.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is going to multiply in solitude and in silence.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, yeah,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: your mom who thinks she knows some things,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: she's over here screwing things up all day long.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, to your point, like this is high stakes, right?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't, well,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: somebody probably has like gotten seriously hurt from a mass error,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: but like, you know, like it's not the same, right?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I often talk to people about, like, let's take the example that you just gave.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I wrote about in my book, many mistakes that I have made.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like the people who are on the receiving end of our blunders when it comes
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: to racism, like are really hurt.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: And We can't just erase it with our pencil, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: The way that we would a math error and fix it and be like, uh-huh, it's all good.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: The person who wrote that comment about the thing that you said in
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: the workshop may never know that you spent two years after that working on it.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: They may never know that it impacted you so much that you're talking about it today, right?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that a lot of times when we think about atoning for our mistakes,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: we What we want is for the person who we hurt to know that we are better now.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that may never happen.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: Instead,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: what atoning for our mistakes,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: especially when it comes to talking about racism,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: looks like often is just being like,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: I have to let the reality that that person may think that I'm
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: a horrible person stand and just know that for the rest of my life,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to make sure that nobody else thinks that I'm a horrible person for
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: that same thing again.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's Really hard pill to swallow, but that's also the work too, right?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like you just got to move forward trying to do better for the future and knowing
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: that you might not be able to change the impact that you had in the past and kind
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: of sucks, but that's life.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does suck.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And like, it's honestly just a tiny suck.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a tiny sack.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tiny sack.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: And lucky me,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: the people on my team who were the people who meant the most to me, they,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: it was rough for a while as I sort of found my way through,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: but we are all super close and closer because we went through that time together.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many other imaginary ways that could have gone so much worse.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: The trust that you build with people when you show them I not only can take
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: the feedback that I'm given, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: But that I'm going to do something with it, I'm going to change is so powerful.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like I feel safer and more supported by people who are committed to working through
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: the mistakes that they have made than by people who spend time trying to tell me
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: about how I'm wrong and whatnot, right?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so it does not surprise me that you have become closer with those folks.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that that's the story, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: And to take the kind of bungee jumping or ziplining,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: analogy to its natural conclusion here,
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: that to me is when you have done the hard thing, right?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: You've jumped off of the clip of your own volition.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you make it to the end and your heart is still pounding because you're like,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: what in the
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: hell did I just do?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: But you've got people down there that are cheering you on like you did it.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we're proud of you.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: And we know it was hard.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: You did it anyway.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the power of what can happen when we We lean into deciding
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: to confront our own or others' racism or to learn and to challenge the way
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: that we have been raised and to think for our entire lives.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's the joy.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: There are people waiting for us at the bottom of the mountain who are celebrating
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: the fact that we did the hard thing.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love that answer so much because it makes me think about something else you talked
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: about earlier in the book that I found really helpful was this explicit conversation
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: about the difference between the extrinsic and the intrinsic motivators
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: for having these conversations.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually think probably it's helpful to have both.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we need the safe push from outside and within.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: And a little bit of fear to motivate us.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: It does help sometimes.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also like, what are you moving towards?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need that in all ways, right?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just painted a really beautiful picture there, right?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: That I think we can all see in our minds, which is, I did the zip line.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: I got to the end of the really hard, uncomfortable, scary thing.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what was there?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, a feeling of satisfaction,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: a feeling of growth,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: a feeling of challenging my self-imposed boundaries,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: a feeling of my loved ones and supporters cheering me on.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Who doesn't want that?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: And it can feel safer to say,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: well, I can just stay here because there are people here too, right?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: So if we think about the conversation about racism,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: like if you decide not to do the hard thing,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: there will be people who will tell you that that was the right thing too, right?
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: There are people who will be like, well, you shouldn't have to change who you are.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't have to do this.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like they're wrong.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's racist for making you think that you're racist.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's a community there too, right?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: I hope and this is where I think the intrinsic motivation comes in is that I hope
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: that people will decide that the community that they want to be a part of is the one
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: that is more welcoming and that embraces the fact that it's okay to make mistakes
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_03: and it's okay to learn and that If my temporary discomfort is what is the cost for
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: or is the price for experiencing a greater alignment with who I want to be
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: and having a better impact on more people that I encounter in the world,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_03: I want to optimize
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: for whatever I have to do to be a part of that community.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: Not the one that's telling me that I don't have to listen to those voices telling me
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: that I need to change, right?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's the other thing too.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_03: You have the choice to stay with the folks who are telling you
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: that people like me are wrong,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: but they're not as cool as the people that are waiting for you on the other side.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_03: Proof.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm awesome.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: Just saying.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Agree.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: Agree.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be at your party.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be with the people who grow and who care about other people.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because that to me is the delta that we're talking about.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's people who care about only themselves and the people who care about the whole.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be at the whole party, not the selfish party.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: the people who only
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: care about themselves are going to stop caring
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: about you eventually too.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the other thing too.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's like your space in those environments is very tenuous because
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: the second you do something that they don't like, they're kicking you out.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: Then you're at nobody's party.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: So why not join the people who are always trying to think about how to build
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: a bigger tent,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: how to expand,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: how to make a space that is more inclusive and welcoming for as many people
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: as possible,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: including you with all of the mistakes that you make And the only kind of condition
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: of attending that party is being willing to be told when you need
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: to adjust your behavior to be more in line with the values
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: that you said you endorse.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's a small price to pay for being able to be in a community
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: of people who are going to guide you toward always being the best version
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: of yourself possible.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that ultimately is what I really think this is about, right?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I always want to find ways to close the gap between who I want to be and who I am.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to be around people who are going to help me do that,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: not the people who are going to tell me that that gap isn't a big deal.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: What a perfect way to end this,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: to live a life of integrity through these giant and very,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: very tiny choices that we make all day, every day.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: So as uplifters,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: we love nothing more than to uplift other uplifters like you, your mom and your dad.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: So how can we support you and this wonderful book that you've written?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: So buy the book or borrow it, read the book really is one of the ways.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then going back to earlier in our conversation about how I am a consultant,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: if you are a person or an organization that is looking for somebody to come in
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: and talk about bungee jumping and how it relates to racism or any number of things,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm your person, but really...
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think so it's, you know, there's the like, read my book.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: There's the hire me to come talk about this at your organization.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's also the very small,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: like talk about this stuff with your friends,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: with your family, at your dinner table, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the way that you help both like my book, but also just our society, right?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like have these conversations.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I would say.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I will.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we will.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you who are listening to this and want to connect with Dr.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Carter, Evelyn, you can find all of her details in the show notes.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully she'll come over and hang out with us on Substack and join
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: the community chat there so that you can ask her all the good questions I didn't get
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: a chance to in this all too brief conversation.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: So every guest nominates another guest for the show.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: Who would you like to nominate, Evelyn?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Aransas.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta nominate my mom.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yay.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know she was like the original DEI expert.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, she was.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: She like, Ann Carter is my like, my uplifter.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: And what I also think is very cool about her.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the thing that was cool about my mom is that she and I were going
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_03: through similar life stages, but at very different ages.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: So she like, Moved into an apartment and was living on her own for the first time in a while.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: Same time that I was also doing that, right?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: And just like figuring out,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: she would say that it took her a long time to figure out like what it means
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: to have fun.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I was also kind of figuring out what fun, but like, you know, at a 25 year age gap.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's very cool about my mom is that in this...
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of current phase of her life,
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: she has found so many ways to reinvent herself and to think anew
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: about what is possible in life.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so she's a very active, you know, 60 plus woman.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm learning a lot from her about what it looks like to rediscover yourself
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: after your kids are adults and all of that kind of stuff.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I got to nominate
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: my mom.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if that's not an intrinsic motivator, I don't know what is.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling you, this is why I love my girls.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: There's something great about knowing that I am not just living for myself,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: but I am living for future generations.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's true both for the kids that I have created,
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: but really for the world that I want to create too.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: I want the arc of the moral universe to keep on bending.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to do my part so that everybody else can experience
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: that positive trajectory as well.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I also love that you...
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: Gave an example of how one does that when you answer the question
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: about Imagining your book having a profound effect on folks,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: you allowed yourself to see your purpose in action.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so often we feel shame in that and we feel like we have to hide from
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: that because, oh, we don't want to be too big for our britches.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to be like, think too much of ourselves.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: But like, why would we rob ourselves of those opportunities to motivate ourselves?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that I have really challenged myself to stop doing
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: because I have now had a number of experiences in life where
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: if I had made myself small, I would have missed out on things like my book, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm like, you know what?
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: My britches are big and I am too.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: I have a friend who is a coach and when she was training for her certification,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: we had a session where she asked me to visualize who I am at 80.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw myself in this big house in the mountains.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I told her, I was like, I don't even see as much as here.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the sound that I hear is like I have a full house of people laughing and talking
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: because I have this family that has come to be in this beautiful A-frame house
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_03: that I have been able to afford because I've been successful.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And to me...
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was the first time that I really thought about who I will be
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: when I am 80 years old, being interviewed by somebody about my lifelong career.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so I get there by starting where I am now or continuing where I am now.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, my britches are big and I am too.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I am not ashamed to talk about them.
• 56:41
  Yeah, good.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was such a joy to talk to you, Evelyn.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Likewise.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And such a joy to read your book.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for writing it.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: It was wonderful to be here.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to The Uplifters Podcast.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're getting a boost from these episodes,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: please share them with The Uplifters in your life and then join us in conversation
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: over at theuplifterspodcast.com.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Head over to Spotify,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Apple Podcasts,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: or wherever you get your podcasts and like, follow, and rate our show.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: It'll really help us connect with more uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: of these beautiful stories.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Big love.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: Painted water
• 57:29
  [music]
• 58:35
  cried.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, in the pre-course, right?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: I was like...
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: Mommy, stop crying.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're disturbing the peace.