Latest / TezTalks Radio - Tezos Ecosystem Podcast / 78: wwwombats

Transcript

78: wwwombats · TezTalks Radio - Tezos Ecosystem Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Tez Talks Radio.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, marisa True, and on today's show I am joined by Wombat, who's otherwise known as Anthony Lewis, who is the artist and the co-founder behind the Otters PFP collection on Tezos.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: So, hi, how are you today?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: And also, you know, thank you so much for waking up so early this morning for our interview.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: I know, time zone is always a challenge.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: No worries.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you, marisa.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: No thanks for having me.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be on.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: So, as we traditionally do on this show, we have to start with your personal background and your story into the blockchain and crypto space, and then, from there, what led you down the path towards Tezos.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, yeah, I mean my background in art um, yeah, pretty normal, um, I, I suppose I was.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: I was sort of the guy that could always like the guy that could draw at school.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: You know, there's always there's always one like from a really early age just kind of yeah, lucky, I guess.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Just kind of was was quite good at drawing and then, as tends to happen, you know, because you're quite good, naturally you kind of just do more of it, so you know, and then with that practice, you know, you really do start to improve.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I was just always kind of that, that kind of almost became my kind of place, if you like that, that like the kind of artist person at school, and it was quite, it was quite a beneficial kind of skill to have it kind of I look back and think it made life easier in a way.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it made, um, it made me be able to kind of get better grades and things at school because I could, I could kind of uh, capitalize on the kind of um, uh, the drawing side and putting kind of craft into things.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I just kind of went down that path, um, uh, you know, went to university and did um a degree in in oil painting.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, I mean I mean from there, like I kind of graduated from university and and and I didn't kind of think, right, I'm going to go and be an artist, cause I didn't think that was really a realistic kind of thing for me to do, um, for whatever reason, um.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I ended up getting a job, uh, in web design.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: So, um, kind of spent kind of most of my adult life um, kind of being creative, uh in that way, if you like.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So, so you know there was um, there's kind of an art side to it, but it's, you know, yeah, I suppose it's more design.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: You know I was doing web design, web development, branding, graphic design, you know, heavy use of photoshop and css and things to to make things, to make images, if you like, um, um, but yeah, that's that's kind of what I've spent the last kind of 15 years doing um, and not a lot of art, to be honest.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Um, because it just because it didn't pay the bills, um, and that's when I kind of I found nfts and blockchain just through a, through a friend of mine.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was becoming aware of it through social media.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: You know, I have an interest in art, so I follow a lot of people, a lot of kind of digital artists, on social media and things, and was sort of you know, this is back in 2021, sort of starting to kind of pick up on this thing that was happening, um, but didn't know anything kind of about how, how, how I would get involved in that, um, until a friend of mine, um, a guy I went to school with, kind of turns out he actually started to get involved in collecting nfts and things.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, he kind of gave me that kind of crash course into what nfts are and um, yeah, I just sort of stalked his twitter profile for a bit and kind of found tezos, you know, went down that rabbit hole and just just, kind of one one profile led to another.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like this is, this is insane, like what is happening here, and connected the dots with what I'd been seeing, with those kind of digital artists that I've been following, and was kind of like you know, this is, this is cool, this is I want a piece of this too.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: And um, yeah, that's when I spoke to my friend more about it and kind of said, like I'm gonna do something with this, so we might as well do it together.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Um, and that's kind of how we came up with this idea to um, uh, to create the otters collection and, um, I mean, there was an appeal there for me because of the um, because of the aesthetics of of of those popular pfp collections at the time.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: So obviously we're talking about like board apes and things.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: You know, I like the look of those, I like that kind of cartoon, comic book style.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, I should I should mention I've completely skipped over that like as a kid I was totally obsessed with comic books and things.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: So, um, you know, I'd spent a lot of time drawing that kind of stuff when I was, when I was younger, um, so that that aesthetic immediately appealed to me.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: And then when I kind of um, thought about the things I'd done, like in web design and graphic design and things, you know, I was really familiar with that kind of Photoshop process of, like you know, layering PNGs, so, and I'd even done stuff with code that was kind of around, kind of randomizing how PNG layers were compiled and things, kind of randomizing how png layers were compiled and things.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: So it was, it was, it was quite easy for me to kind of um, have that basic understanding of like, oh, I can see how they've done this.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I can like, like, not that I would know immediately how to go and code a collection like that, but like, um, yeah, I, I grasped pretty quickly how a pf collection like Bored Apes could come about and obviously felt that I was capable of drawing something like that, even though I hadn't really drawn for a long time In fact, the last artwork I'd done was the year before that.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: So in 2020, I kind of decided to start painting again, which is obviously what I used to do back in uni, but sort of 15 years before that.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So so I'd come back to painting, um, but painting landscapes, um.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: So I was doing that kind of kind of reinvigorated my kind of, you know, artistic drive, if you like.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: And then then the nft stuff hit and I was kind of like I've been sitting here doing traditional landscape painting, but now I'm really excited about cartoon animals and how they're drawn and compiled, so, yeah, so I knew instantly that was the route we wanted to take to do a PFP collection.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, we just kind of cooked that up together and I kind of learned how to draw digitally.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I hadn't done that before.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: So I got like, my wife's got, um, an iPad pro, so so I kind of got procreate and started started trying to draw on it for the.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I've never done it before and I was awful, I mean like, but after a couple of days got quite good at it, um, and yeah, yeah, just just kept at it for the next kind of three months, if you like, and in the meantime my friend started speaking to his kind of connections he'd made within the tesos community that could kind of hook us up with a, with a developer, um, and yeah, you know, that's, that's.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: That's how it happened then.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: It was just just a load of hard work after that just to make it, just to make it a thing and get it launched.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that I guess your original disciplines as an artist didn't naturally find themselves applied to this arena just yet, but because you, I guess, had the graphic design background coupled with this passion for, I guess, the aesthetic of comics and then seeing that sort of materialize in the blockchain space, that's sort of what piqued your interest.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: But does that mean that when you first got involved into Tezos, you were coming in with my starting piece of work is going to be a PFP collection, or was this sort of like an early stage experiment to see how this could then, you know, translate into you doing more art on chain?
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: um, yeah, yeah, the the first one it was.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: It was literally my.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: My first piece of work is going to be this pfp collection, um, and I didn't.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen after that.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Um, I I don't know, I think the pfp collection was such an enormous mountain in front of me I couldn't really look past that.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Um, I did mint.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I minted a couple of um kind of old pieces of, like graphic design kind of work that I'd done um years before, like, uh, for a company that no longer existed.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: So I'd done that and I was like these are nice pieces of digital art.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Um, I mean, at the time I didn't see them as digital art, but I was like I don't have anything else, like my only other artwork exists, kind of on canvas and on paper, so so I minted those purely to um to learn how the minting process worked.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: I wanted to go through that interface, uh, and it was on hick at nunc, so so I went through that just just to know that I'd done it.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Um, and to like have, like I've got a profile there, like, like I.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I was like I feel like I've, I've kind of, I kind of I'm part of this now, because I've minted two pictures, um, but yeah, I didn't really consider them kind of representative of of me as an artist really at all.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, the first piece of work was going to be the otters pfb collection and after that I was kind of like I'll just strap myself in and sort of see, see where this goes.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: So, um, yeah, so, so, otters was it so then talk me through the creation of otters.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: You know, like, what actually inspired the use of otters, I guess, is your motif, and you know what did that symbolize, and was there a greater underlying purpose to it?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: so, um, so originally they weren't going to be otters, they were going to be wombats, which is which is how I got the twitter handle.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Um, so I, because I was really excited, I've got to do this.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: This pfp collection is gonna be amazing, you know, it needs to be an animal.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Um, I, I just kind of I don't know why, oh no, I do know why.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wombats, um, of course.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: So years ago, probably like 10 years ago or something before it was yeah, it must have been something like that I'd, um, I'd kind of been approached to kind of draw some um characters for what could end up being like a mobile app game, and it was going to be called Wombat Combat.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: So I'd drawn these Wombat kind of cartoon characters and they were all going to have, you know, different outfits on different hats.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: You know one would have an eye patch or something, so really relevant to what you see now in PFP collections.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: But this was back in like I don't know um 2010, 2013 or something I don't know something like that around then, um, so I got all these drawings of wombats and and and a kind of really crude like uh 3d kind of render of of one.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: So I had this character.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: So for me that was kind of like, um, like, okay, I'll just use that.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: You know I can make a pfp collection off that because I've kind of done kind of stuff that relates to that already.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Um, so tried, I tried to do that originally.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Um, this is when I first started using procreate and you know it was.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: It was horrible, um, and I quickly kind of realised that actually wombats don't actually lend themselves that well to kind of wearing clothes.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously I mean I'm looking at like the Bored Apes and looking how they've done it and they've got all this kind of cool accessories on and things and you can't really like accessorising a wombat is hard because they've got these thick necks and like they're kind of chunky.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: So, um, as soon as I started to put you know anything that had a collar around it or anything, it just looked ridiculous.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Um, so, yeah, I said, I said to my friend, like we've got, we've got to kind of pivot here because the wombat's not going to work.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: So we were just quickly kind of on whatsapp just trying to find an animal name that would kind of pivot here because the wombat's not going to work.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: So we would just quickly kind of on whatsapp just trying to find an animal name that would kind of inspire us a bit, and, and I suggested otters, but but with the, the tears ending on it, um, and that was just instant, we were just like that's it, that's good, that's it.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Like, everyone, everyone loves otters, like, like, like, and I do, like I literally have always had a soft spot for otters.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: So, um, so, yeah, so, so we just went with that and, um, they lend themselves much more to wearing clothes.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: So that was, uh, yeah, that was that was good, and um, and it just, it started to go well pretty quickly.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Um, so, other than, like, otters being a nice animal and they're cute and they're kind of intelligent and they're kind of cheeky, um, and they're a nice kind of aesthetically pleasing shape, uh, they've got like a lot of character.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: So, other than that, I'm not going to kind of pretend that there's any kind of deep meaning behind it or anything, or you know, um, it just it just started to work kind of as a concept as we were, as I was kind of developing those kind of early sketches for, yeah, what, what an otter would look like like with a hoodie on and stuff, so, um, yeah, so that's, that's kind of how that happened what I always find about pfp collections within the web3 space that's interesting is how something that seems quite fun, quite light-hearted, can sometimes be backed by this really complex mission statement that's, you know, values driven.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: It sounds like there's this entire body of complexity that rests behind it.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: So it's actually quite refreshing to hear that.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: You know this was like a creative, fun piece of art that you knew you could duplicate and, I guess for lack of a better word manipulate into different editions over the course of time.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: But then, naturally, with PFP collections whether it was premeditated or just happens after the fact, you start to gather your community of collectors and that community starts to essentially embody a system of values or represent a system of beliefs.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: So after you launched Otters who were sort of the people that you noticed were starting to collect the PFPs, and what sort of community started to orbit the collection?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question and yeah, you're exactly right, like the community building part was actually massive for us and it was something we started kind of.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: So in parallel to me drawing the artwork, my friend who I was doing it with the co-founder of Otters Paggy, so he was busy starting that kind of Discord community up and that kind of Twitter drive, if you like, and he did a really good job of that as well and he was, you know, I think he was a bit of an OG in Tezos so he knew a lot of those kind of early kind of core members of the Tezos community, if you like.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So he got quite a few people kind of involved with us early and I think that helped.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: It helped kind of ingratiate us into the kind of wider Tezos community.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are always going to be people who don't accept PFP projects and that's fine.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, there were a lot of people who do like them and there were people who were kind of clawing for this exact thing.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously Tezards were out already.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: There were a few other PFP collections as well.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I think Tezards had been a kind of massive success and there were people who had been a part of that and people who had maybe missed that, who, who now wanted it again, um, and that's basically where where we slotted in.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: So there were people ready for us who were happy to kind of get on board Um and uh and and just come along for the ride.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: And um, yeah, there were.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: There were a lot of early kind of collectors, uh, who, yeah, trying to remember who some of them were, I mean there were there were loads at the beginning, obviously, um, but I mean somebody, a really core member, um, who, who paggy brought on was um, uh yoshi, who's a who's a really active kind of tezos person, if you like.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: So he kind of came on board um to help, kind of um moderate the discord, if you like, um, so he and he's still there today, you know helping out and he, you know um, he's really active and he's he's an artist in his own right and he's a music producer, um, so he, he's he's really active doing all sorts of things and he's been a really great kind of um person to kind of help guys um us through the whole journey and you know somebody to kind of confide in and an advisor, if you like, and things.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: So he's been.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: He's been a really, really great person to have along the ride with us.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: But I mean, yeah, over, um, over the course of that journey, there's been loads of collectors who've kind of come on board.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, schoony is a really kind of well-known, prominent um tezos collector who, um, he, he wasn't there right at the beginning, I don't think, but he came on right as otters were kind of hitting our kind of highest peak, if you like, and, um, he's, he's still around today and but there's loads of really kind of um prominent people who've actually gone on to do like other things as well within tezos.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: So there's there's um, uh, a kind of group of people who kind of formed the uh, the tezos community um twitter account and discord server, who were all kind of early collectors, um, so that's been great to see because that's become a real kind of hub of activity for kind of collectors and artists in the tezos community and um, um, lots of other kind of artists as well.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Um, what was really great to see was like when we kind of hit there was a real kind of boom of pfp projects in tezos at the time and we kind of formed quite a good kind of alliance, if you like, or whatever with those.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: So there was a real kind of camaraderie between kind of PFP collectors and founders.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of cross-pollination and there was collaborations going on, and most of the collectors of Otis would also be collecting all these other pfp collections as well, and so would I.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I, you know I was a fan of it as well.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, there was a really good sense of community.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: That's all.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: That's fallen away a bit, because a lot, a lot of those kind of pfp kind of communities and things you know have suffered through um, through the kind of hard times that crypto has gone through, so that's not around as much anymore.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: But it was great, it was really good at the time.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: So it was.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: You know, I look back on that and it was really fun.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So whether we'll see those days again I don't know, but no, it was great.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Tezos has always famously had a very collaborative environment when it came to sort of like the artist communities or the artist ecosystem.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: And then going back to what you were saying earlier in terms of artists being your gateway into this world, it sounds like once you launched, it very much took on a life of its own.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: So what I also want to ask is how had that evolved your sense of self as an artist as well?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Because suddenly you're taking on more jobs than you perhaps anticipated.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: It goes well beyond you know the aesthetic of the art you created.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Now you're also partly a community manager and you also have to sort of be in constant touch with your community and communicating.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is is in the pipeline.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: So how did that sort of shift your notion of the role of the artist, if at all?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: yeah, no, exactly right, and it's something you hear a lot of.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: You know artists kind of saying like I didn't, I didn't realize this is what I signed up for, like to be kind of always on, you know kind of community manager, kind of marketer, um, you know admin, and all this kind of stuff.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, yeah, I didn't realize that at all, um, um, but you know, I think you just learn to deal with it, I suppose, and, and um, I think I, I'm quite, I mean, I, I consider myself really lucky to have kind of found that this audience anyway, so, um, so I don't mind it at all, um, but also lucky that the type of people that have stuck around, like the collectors that I've got and the people who kind of check in every day on Discord and Twitter, even if it's just a GM, you know, I feel lucky that, like those people that have stuck around seem to be really genuinely good people.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: They don't they're not trouble We've had our fair share of like troublemakers and they've they've come and gone, they've fallen away or they've been banned or whatever, or people have just kind of you know, you know kind of discouraged them from sticking around, because, yeah, we've had, we've had all sorts of people kind of show up.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: And you get people that kind of show up and you get people that kind of uh, fud and criticize.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And I had people in the early days I had people kind of questioning me as an artist, sort of saying, like, because people obviously suspect that you're going to be a kind of scammer or something if you're launching a pfp project, especially on tezos.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: So there were people kind of coming in demanding to know my credentials as an artist, if you like, and um, which was really that that was probably the hardest time actually, because it was like, well, I don't have a background as a digital artist, but I'm getting questioned about being an artist, like I.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Like I mentioned the beginning, like I was like I feel like I was like born an artist, if you like.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Like I got that's just what, what I was like all through my childhood.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I had like the school colors for fine art on my blazer at school and stuff.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Like I, I was that guy and now I'm being told that that people don't think I am and I'm about to scam a load of people.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just it was, it was.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: You know it's not nice, um, but yeah, I'm fortunate that those people don't seem to be as vocal anymore.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Maybe they're not around, I don't know but um, uh, but the people that stuck around are really nice and kind of friendly and, um, uh, and value what I do.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: And now I'm, yeah, now I've kind of started to to kind of do like post otters work, if you like, so, like other stuff, which which was difficult as well I mean, it's probably mentioned with that like, like, because I kind of came to a point where I was like, well, I can't, I can't just just do cartoon otters anymore, because, like, we don't really need more, there's enough to do.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: More isn't actually good for the collectors.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: But then what do I do?
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Um, because I haven't done any other digital art really, so, um, so there was a real kind of crossroads, and that was only kind of last year, I suppose.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I came to that.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: It was like, what does my digital artwork look like now?
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Um, if it's not cartoon otters?
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: So I had to kind of decide that, um, and yeah, fortunate enough that those people that stuck around have kind of supported that and shown interest in that, you know.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Then turns out they're not just into pfps, they're also into, you know, obviously because they've all been big collectors in tesla, so anyway, so, um, um, yeah, lucky, um lucky that they've kind of shown an interest and and see, it seems to have been received quite well the new stuff I've been doing.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I think it's unfortunate that you had to endure that level of skepticism where people's version of due diligence, I guess, or know your artist's protocols, is to essentially grill them to make sure that they're not potentially about to participate in a rug pull.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: But I think probably the reason that harassment, or at least hopefully the reason that harassment has dropped, is because you've proven just through time that you're still there and you're still actively creating and that, if anything, should be the greatest qualifier.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: But common threads in conversations that we've had on test talks between you know, whether you're a pfp creator, whether you're a generative artist, is always this question of the legitimacy of the artist.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Because when you have an internet community that's essentially asking you to blue tick, verify your credentials as an artist, it sort of takes away, I guess, the abstract quality of being an artist.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: To begin with it's not something that can easily be quantified or qualified.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: So I think that's an unfortunate little speed bump that is yet to really be overcome.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: But that being said, obviously a lot of your later work is now very much venturing down your, your digital art and like this new passion of creating digital art.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: So can you talk to me a bit more about what that transition was like and you know what was sort of like the themes that you wanted to explore, what was what was coming up for you that you thought this is.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: This is where I sort of want to continue to create yeah, sure, yeah, um.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean, I mean, as I mentioned so, so I've got kind of these phases of kind of uh art in my life where, like before otters it was, it was it was painting, really like as a child, drawing like comic books and stuff.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, university and kind of uh, and that year before it was all all oil painting, so everything was just just canvas.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, I mean, in that that 2020 year it was, it was traditional landscapes, like trying to be like, like, really like, just straight up landscapes.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: There's no, there's no quirk to this.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Um, and that's actually that's still really interests me.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Like I will revisit that.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: So that's what, that's what I was doing.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Um, then otters came and obviously I built this audience with otters and I was like and I'm still into this, this, this digital art process, so I want to keep doing that.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: But I didn't know.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like do I do landscapes or something?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, digitally?
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Um, and I didn't choose to do that, but I think I think I will at some point as well, but, um, there's too many ideas, but um, yeah, that point where I was like, okay, what do I draw next?
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah it, it was.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: It was difficult, I didn't know it could be anything.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: This is the thing.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like like what, like, what's even my style?
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Because that otter style was very much kind of intentionally derived from popular pfp collections and it was kind of like I'm going to mirror that aesthetic.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Um, just like, just because I can cause, I could cause, I could draw, and I I mean, even though I'd not drawn digitally I was kind of like have that kind of belief that I can kind of turn my hand to, to, to, to using this new tool to to mirror that style that I'd seen.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, after otters was kind of like, well, is that my style or is that?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is that a style that I've just kind of adopted?
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Um, so what I did was I kind of looked back at those.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So those two pieces of work that I mentioned that I'd minted just before otters as a kind of test of the minting process, one of them was like a sort of graphic kind of depiction of like a kind of cyber city, um, and I think I think one person, I think schoony, was like the one person who bought there was three editions of it and he, he bought it, um, and I I'm going to reward the fact that he was the one person that bought that first piece I'd minted as a test.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: So the next pieces of work I do will now build out from that that image of like a futuristic city, because I thought as well, you know, it's not a big leap to imagine that that city maybe represents some sort of kind of metaverse, um, which is obviously, you know, relevant to the web3 space.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: So so, yeah, that was kind of the decision.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I was sort of like I'll just build on that, that image, um, and build, try and build a world out from there, reward the person, that, the one person that bothered to go and buy that piece from me that I'd minted as a test and that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: So that was the direction I went in and I kind of thought, if I create images that extrapolate out from that, maybe I'll find what my style is by doing that.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: And I kind of I applied the same kind of process that I drew, that I used to draw the otters kind of process that I drew, that I used to draw the otters, but I find now I'm kind of adding to it.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Each time, you know, I might use a different texture or different kind of pen in Procreate or maybe an extra few layers of lighting.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'll kind of vary the line weights and thicknesses a bit more, be a bit more slightly more expressive, and that's interesting because that's the style that's kind of developing, and I think I've done kind of maybe like six pieces now since I started kind of the end of last year putting these pieces out.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I think I've done six now because they take quite a long time, um, but I'm you know, if I look at them together now, I can see that there's a style kind of emerging from that.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: There's a really kind of cohesive look and feel.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Um, so I'm just, I'm discovering, yeah, what my style is, kind of kind of post artes, if you like, um and it's yeah, it's interesting, it's, it's kind of if you like um and it's, yeah, it's interesting, it's, it's kind of a journey of discovery for me as well.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: So, um, yeah, yeah, it sounds like your approach since the very beginning has been experimental in nature and, as you were saying, there's there's a steep contrast between, I guess, the aesthetic that you've put out onto your work at tezos versus the work that you, or the artwork that you create offline.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Um and you were alluding earlier to, like, you used to be a very big comic book fan and then now a lot of your early digital artwork is exploring these futuristic themes.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Was that sort of a trajectory that you connected the dots for?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And why those particular themes like?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Why did those ones stand out to you in particular as roads to go down as you experimented with different styles?
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, 100.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: It definitely connects to to that kind of background of comic book art, um, and also around that.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, with comic books, um, there's also a kind of collecting aspect for me as well.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So so as a kid I was really into just just collecting stuff.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: You know, collecting like anything, anything that I thought was kind of suitable for collecting, like you know, um, I was really into um, and this is, you know, back in like the kind of 90s um, and you know, I know it's not pre-internet but it, but it's kind of pre-ebay, if you like.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: So collecting was, collecting was good back then.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: It was hard, you know.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: You had to put the work in.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: You had to go and find weird places that sold stuff that the high street didn't sell, and I was really into that.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: And I mean I probably got it from my dad.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: My dad's like a huge collector.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: He collects all sorts of things.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: He kind of collects like old coin coins and things.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: He's a metal detector, so he kind of uh, so he and my mom is as well, so they dig up ancient artifacts on a daily basis, basically.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: So they, um, they have a huge collection of things like that, and I mean, mean, my dad, he collects all he collects like animal skulls and he's got a beetle collection.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: You know, we, we would, we would go on holiday and he'd be collecting beetles and scorpions and stuff.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I grew up in that kind of collecting culture and I would collect comic books.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And I mean, if you think back to the nineties, there was all sorts of like football stickers, you know, pogs, all these kind of things, um, and then and then then the internet ruined it.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: So, you know, ebay came along and now anybody can just get whatever they want whenever they want, you know.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, collecting was just totally ruined for me.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: But you know, I mean you've got to sit here now and I've got like I've got like all my old like comic books and uh, things that I collected, you know transformers and all this kind of stuff, um, and I think you know, when you go, when you kind of go through those kind of formative years, if you're into those kind of things, I think it stays with you.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: So I'm probably very much trapped in that kind of mindset still.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: And that was another thing that resonated with me about NFTs and PFP collections and digital collectibles and the rarity scale kind of baked into it.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: It means you can collect again.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: You can't go on eBay and get a rare Otez.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: So that's amazing.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: So I guess the challenges of actually going through the process of collecting an NFT in some way sort of emulated that early challenge of the collecting experience in terms of you had to go out and find what it is that you were looking for.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: It wasn't just a single click button and you could have exactly what it is what you wanted.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: If it was a one-of-one, that was the one that you had to cover it by any means necessary.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: So I guess, in that way, blockchain was sort of.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It's a very odd thing to think that, like your, your passion as a child is now sort of being replicated in a weird tangential sort of way in this new digital universe, just through, arguably, your own artwork this time, versus you being the collector.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: But that being said, are you also an avid collector?
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Is this something that you actively participate in as well, or is it a?
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Is it the case where you're sort of taking the opposite side of the table this time around and sort of, uh, trying it from the other side?
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: yeah it's, it's, it's been a bit of both.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: So so at first with otters I was kind of too busy to collect.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: It was just too full-on, like it was just just 24 7.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: So um, would buy, I would kind of collect.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe not collect, I would buy other PFP.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I'd buy from other PFP projects on Tezos because I liked them, because I wanted to support them and I liked having a collection of them.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't go as far to say as I collected them as in, I wouldn't kind of go and really seek out the rarest ones and kind of put that kind of level of kind of scrutiny on it, because that that does take time and dedication.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Now, now that, um, the kind of running of otters doesn't require kind of so much attention, um, I've been able to kind of now start to kind of properly collect art on Tezos and that's what I've been doing.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Is what, like over the past kind of maybe like six months or so like really really getting into that kind of collector mindset.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: You know, following people on objects, you know, get the notifications when an artist I like mint something, and yet trying to become a regular collector of particular artists work, um, and that's good, you know, and I like, looking at my, at my own page on on objects and kind of um seeing, uh, yeah, this kind of collection of really nice looking artwork build up and um, and it's interesting as well because I can kind of seen it, I can see my taste as well in there, like I scroll down it and I'm like that's me, like that is exactly what I like.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Like, all that stuff you know, um, you know, and, and the curation feature on object has been cool as well because you know, I'm able to kind of, uh, I've made like one cyberpunk illustration curation and I just add to that every time I buy something that fits that that kind of um bracket, I can add it onto that and I love it.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: No, it's great, um, so, yeah, so, so yeah, much more of a collector kind of in this kind of latter part of my kind of tezos journey, so yeah yeah, it reminds me of when I was a teenager and creating a tumblr account and that sort of digital curation process where anything that I reblogged was sort of presented as this beautiful grid of items or images that I'd collected obviously, you know, without the ownership, but that that initial exercise or like the joy of that exercise sort of still existing on the internet today.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: And the other thing that really struck me throughout the course of this conversation is, as you said, you're still sort of trying to find your voice or your style as an artist within the Web3 space, while I think for many artists who are in this space, they they almost have a slightly different entry point where they are finding an environment or a community where their art style is accepted.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: So you're sort of coming in from two different sides but meeting in the middle.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Uh, and you know, I think that's where tezos really thrived, particularly with within the realm of things like generative art, and you know a lot of very digitally native or like very digital aesthetic art that's been created.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: But this is a very roundabout way of asking, you know, are these particular disciplines that you would also like to experiment with?
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Are these areas where I guess your artistic curiosities peaked and sort of seeing whether you'd be able to create in like through those mediums.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Or are you sort of more focused on, I guess, the aesthetic, style and how you present and communicate that?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: yeah, I don't, I don't think I'll I'll ever kind of uh, go fully into the, into the generative art side.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've, um, like, as I said earlier, I've got, I've got a bit of experience, obviously, with coding, but it's very much like like sort of um front end, like html, css, uh, kind of the stuff you need to kind of build websites and things, um, which, which is great.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I enjoy that and I've, through doing, I've kind of tried multiple times to go a bit further onto the development side and learn something like JavaScript and things, and I'm very, I accept that my brain does not want to learn JavaScript at all.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: I've tried, I've done it and I didn't like it.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: And so the idea of then like, like, trying to learn another code language, um yeah, frightens me and I just, I think I just I'm quite, I quite like the fact that my brain's like no, not like, we don't, we don't do that, we do this other thing, um, so I'm, I'm and I'm at peace with that, uh, so that's good.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I kind of know, you know, I know my lane, if you like.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, so I think I will be, I'll be sticking with the kind of digital illustration I do, however, kind of want to kind of um like, try like digital painting, if you like, because I think there is there is a difference, um, so I will be doing that at some point.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mentioned earlier kind of I do intend to try kind of like landscapes digitally at some point.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So I'll be keeping on the kind of theme I'm on at the moment, but, yeah, definitely intend to kind of create other collections that will house those other kind of styles.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Perhaps I don't know if styles is the right word, but, yeah, this is the thing.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Like, as I mentioned, like the approach to these new pieces was kind of to start with the same process that I used for Otters and build on it.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: But I'm tempted to just start somewhere else, completely on a different collection.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's, maybe it's just like black and white drawing or, yeah, like digital paintings of landscapes, or maybe, you know, maybe I need to try like creating gifs or something.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Um, pixel art is tempting, um, I don't know if I'll ever dive into that, but it's tempting.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I like a lot of what I see.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I think there's some really good pixel artists on tezos and they are inspiring, so I like that.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'll go down that route, um, just because I don't know if it's me, uh, but yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of where my head's at with it at the moment more, more drawing, more painting, different styles, like I do.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: I do feel like I could, like I'll be able to kind of do that.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not um, it's hard, it's hard to describe really.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Um, I kind of always feel like, oh, okay, one day I'll just wake up and just make some art that looks completely different to anything I've made before.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Um, whether I'll be able to, I don't know, but I I feel like I can do that.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: So it seems inevitable at some point that that I will do that.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I don't know, but I feel like I can do that.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: So it seems inevitable at some point that I will do that.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I think it just goes back to that kind of like kind of natural talent for just being able to kind of make creative things.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Like I've said this to people on the Autes Discord before like if I go to the beach and I'll make a sandcastle with my kids, but I'll be there for like eight hours making like the most extravagant sandcastle and there'll be like crowds watching, just because I can't, I just I just can't help it.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: Like it, just it has to be some amazing like thing, um, and yeah, I kind of feel that way about just art, art in general, like, um, like I went to one of those like uh, you know those things you see in like london where you go to like one of those shops and you paint mugs, you paint pictures on mugs or whatever, and then they glaze them or whatever it is um, like I went and did that which is like painting, um, uh, I painted like a, like like Frankenstein, on a, on a, on a teapot, and they literally offered me a job on the spot and I was kind of like, maybe, maybe, maybe that's what I need to do, you know, maybe maybe I'm like a like somebody that paints porcelain or something you know like um, um, yeah, I don't know.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Like just seem to be able to kind of do those.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Those like turn my hand to those different kind of mediums, if you like, um, but I, I like, as I said earlier, I know I wouldn't be able to do generative like I'm not going to be on fx hash creating these amazing kind of animated um, randomly generated things like that's.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: That's not something I'm capable of, so, um, I won't be going down there.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: But drawing, painting, yeah, I feel I feel at home there, so I think that's where I'll stay I uh.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like the possibilities are endless.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: It's just either a matter of you sort of selecting one specifically and just focusing on that for a while, or waiting for one to sort of call out to you and for you to just follow that track for a bit.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: But, that being said, you know what.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: What are you working on at the moment that people can be looking forward to?
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: If anything is, you know, is there?
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Is there an upcoming collection or upcoming works that you'd like to share?
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's very much kind of just one by one at the moment, adding to that existing collection that's called Blame the Future, so more of those kind of cyberpunk, kind of vaporwave-inspired images that I've got at the moment.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, so I've done kind of six of those seven, if you include the kind of the one that started it, but I'm going to add to that for a significant amount of time until I've built kind of a body of work where I think I can look at and think, okay, that's, that's good, that's, that's a cohesive style.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, there's that world building element to it.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: So when I feel like I've fleshed out that world enough, that's when I'll probably say, okay, I'll take a break from that and move on to the new thing, which, which is likely to be, um, yeah, more drawing or more painting, but in a, but perhaps in a.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Not a different I never know whether to use that word style or not but a different aesthetic.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: It could be, um, like it could be the landscape painting stuff.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Um, I've got a kind of.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: I've got a real, like you mentioned earlier.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: You said something that kind of calls to you.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: That's, that's literally how I look at it.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of waiting for something to to call to me to do that.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Um, that's a nice way of putting it, putting it, and and I, I think I can kind of hear, I can hear landscape, digital landscapes and probably probably castles.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: I've mentioned this before actually, yeah, I think, obviously based in the UK, there's a lot of castles around here and back when I was doing the, the traditional landscape kind of oil painting stuff, yeah, castles was going to be one of the things I was going to going to move on to before nfts kind of piqued my interest.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: So I, yeah, I'm kind of drawn to that, I think, um, but who knows, you know, something else may come along, we'll see.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: I may end up painting porcelain in london or something I mean it sounds.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: It sounds really intriguing because I, like I said, I think it's rare to actually meet an artist who's still very much sort of finding their voice within this space rather than trying to find a place for the voice they already had.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: So I think that makes it a lot more compelling.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Just because it's, it's very much something to watch, because you don't actually know what's coming out next, and for that reason I'll be keeping a keen eye on your work.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: But otherwise, you know, thank you so much for firstly sharing your time today, waking up extra early to have this conversation, and is there anything else you'd like to sort of leave off with before we part ways?
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: No, no, I mean, I kind of warned you at the beginning that I uh, I do waffle on a bit, so, no, I'm um, no, I'm good.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you, and thanks so much for having me.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Now it's, um, it's been a real honor.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: No, really really.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Uh, I've really enjoyed, uh yeah, discussing this stuff, because it makes me think, it makes me kind of go back over and question like why, why did I do that?
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: So, um, it's kind of therapeutic in a way.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: So, thank you, my pleasure that's.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm here for.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: And I mean I say I think you know, once we start to see a lot more of your work turn out, I think we're due another conversation where we can talk about that as well.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: But until then, again, thank you so much for your time and it was genuinely a pleasure to have you on the show brilliant, oh, thank you.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you, marisa, no pleasure talking to you, thank you.