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‘Students Are Being Bullied Into Submission’ – With Heather McKee · UK Column Radio

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello everyone. This is Diane Rethmuss Macattie from UK column.
0:10
Speaker 1: I am delighted to be joined by Heather McKee, who
0:13
Speaker 1: is the convenor of these student Academics for Academic Freedom group.
0:18
Speaker 1: We are both part of Academics for Academic Freedom. I
0:21
Speaker 1: am a member of the committee in Edinburgh that incorporates
0:24
Speaker 1: for Edinburgh Universities who are fighting really really hard to
0:28
Speaker 1: maintain some semblance of academic freedom in our universities throughout
0:32
Speaker 1: the UK because I'm very afraid to say that there
0:34
Speaker 1: really isn't very much left at all and everything's continuing
0:38
Speaker 1: to work against us. But I'm really really happy that
0:41
Speaker 1: there has been a student group that has started up
0:43
Speaker 1: that is starting to work in this direction. So with that, Heather,
0:46
Speaker 1: I'd like to bring you in. Could you, baby say
0:48
Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself and what made you decide
0:52
Speaker 1: to start to get involved in this group as a student.
0:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, probmatrol Diane, It's lovely to join you today
0:58
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, student, I'm a mature student. I do
1:02
Speaker 2: my studies part time. I'm currently completing a master's in
1:06
Speaker 2: psychology at the University of Glasgow and it was this year,
1:10
Speaker 2: well maybe before this year really that I was feeling
1:15
Speaker 2: a bit frustrated around what was happening at university and
1:19
Speaker 2: my own university, but and just generally speaking to other students,
1:23
Speaker 2: there was a kind of lack of ability to kind
1:26
Speaker 2: of use your free speech to you know, have to
1:30
Speaker 2: raise kind of more contentious issues which aren't really contentious,
1:33
Speaker 2: but to kind of voice your kind of different opinion,
1:36
Speaker 2: if you like. And that kind of frustration just really
1:41
Speaker 2: got to the point where I contacted Dennis, who is
1:45
Speaker 2: obviously the director of AFAF and said, do you have
1:48
Speaker 2: a student section of AFATH because I'd really like to join,
1:53
Speaker 2: and Dennis said, we don't. We'd kind of had tried
1:55
Speaker 2: to get something like that going before, but obviously with students,
1:59
Speaker 2: you tend to do your cup of years and you
2:00
Speaker 2: move on, and that's fair. So I said, well, do
2:04
Speaker 2: you mind if I give it a crack and try
2:06
Speaker 2: and restart it again, See if I can get some
2:10
Speaker 2: more students, see if I can kind of create a
2:12
Speaker 2: consistent line of students really that are willing to kind
2:15
Speaker 2: of keep this going. And really that's where it came from.
2:18
Speaker 2: So in May this year we kind of launched it
2:21
Speaker 2: back out and since then it's done really well. It's
2:24
Speaker 2: growing really quite quite sizable. On X or Twitter. We're
2:30
Speaker 2: now over I think seventeen hundred followers. We're well into
2:34
Speaker 2: double digit figures of actual members. And again we vary
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Speaker 2: from eighteen years of age up right up, you know,
2:42
Speaker 2: in terms of student ages, in terms of different sexes,
2:46
Speaker 2: in terms of different studies. You know, we have humanities
2:50
Speaker 2: with science and myself and psychology for instance. So we
2:54
Speaker 2: have a real broad spectrum of students, which is great
2:59
Speaker 2: and there's a real fun I think that's coming out
3:01
Speaker 2: from students I speak to and students in the group
3:04
Speaker 2: to have this free speech and academic freedom come back
3:08
Speaker 2: to universities in the UK and an Ireland. So yeah,
3:11
Speaker 2: So that's really the kind of history of how SAPA
3:14
Speaker 2: kind of started back up again and really where we
3:17
Speaker 2: are today.
3:18
Speaker 1: How did you find out about FAFT in the first place.
3:20
Speaker 1: It's not something that gets terribly publish at most universities
3:24
Speaker 1: and my experience, no.
3:26
Speaker 2: So it was on X. It was on Twitter that
3:29
Speaker 2: I found it because I am a free speech advocate myself.
3:32
Speaker 2: I can't remember how I stumbled across it, but I
3:35
Speaker 2: remember just following it and seeing it being spoken about
3:38
Speaker 2: and obviously being at university, I was quite interested in
3:42
Speaker 2: the fact that many academics, and obviously were some well
3:46
Speaker 2: known academics were getting canceled or you know, even visitors
3:50
Speaker 2: to kind of universities to speak, we're getting canceled, and
3:53
Speaker 2: so it was it was very well known to make
3:55
Speaker 2: the problems if you like. The X was definitely the
3:58
Speaker 2: one that kind of showed me that the work there
4:01
Speaker 2: was organizations fighting for free speech and academic freedom and
4:06
Speaker 2: universities and really that's where it came from, and it
4:09
Speaker 2: just a kind of I love a challenge. I can't
4:12
Speaker 2: help myself, so it would very much like reach out
4:14
Speaker 2: to alf HATH and see what we could.
4:16
Speaker 1: Do academics for academic freedom is definitely we're facing a
4:20
Speaker 1: challenge for sure, and we need to keep working and
4:23
Speaker 1: doing everything that we can and continue to recruit students.
4:27
Speaker 1: I think you said before that your goal is to
4:30
Speaker 1: get one student in every university in the UK. Is
4:33
Speaker 1: that correct?
4:34
Speaker 2: Yes, So at the half A conference that we had,
4:38
Speaker 2: it was a few weeks ago. Now I set a
4:40
Speaker 2: challenge out really to saf ATH members but also to
4:43
Speaker 2: af AF members to say, you know, let's get at
4:48
Speaker 2: least one student and in each university throughout the UK
4:53
Speaker 2: and an Ireland, and really I put the challenge out
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Speaker 2: to academics to say, please stand up. We need you
4:59
Speaker 2: to stand up for free speech. We need you to
5:01
Speaker 2: be visible and universities for students to feel comfortable, to
5:06
Speaker 2: be able to know that there's someone they are advocating
5:09
Speaker 2: for free speech. So that was the challenge that we
5:12
Speaker 2: put out and you know, really what we're looking to
5:16
Speaker 2: do from twenty twenty five is really hit the ground
5:18
Speaker 2: running with that and start doing some real you know
5:22
Speaker 2: on campus events, you know, start to put the word
5:25
Speaker 2: out much more and really just make much more of
5:28
Speaker 2: a noise than we have had the chance to obviously
5:31
Speaker 2: just building up the membership base over the past few months.
5:34
Speaker 2: So twenty twenty five is going to be a really fun,
5:37
Speaker 2: i think and challenging year for academics and for students.
5:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so as well. I'd like to talk
5:44
Speaker 1: a little bit about the conference, as we were both
5:46
Speaker 1: there back in November twenty twenty four. I think it
5:49
Speaker 1: was well. For me, it was a very important day
5:51
Speaker 1: because you know the story of my own cancelation because
5:55
Speaker 1: Jenna Dennis Hayes asked me to give a talk there
5:57
Speaker 1: as well, which I have to say the very motivating, positive, uplifting,
6:03
Speaker 1: despite the fact that, as I believe some people said
6:06
Speaker 1: on the day, we really shouldn't have to be here
6:08
Speaker 1: in the first place, but we are, and it was
6:10
Speaker 1: good to kind of all be together. And actually the
6:14
Speaker 1: student talk was one of the highlights of the day
6:17
Speaker 1: for me because it's so important and I'm really happy
6:21
Speaker 1: to see that younger people are getting involved. And I
6:25
Speaker 1: think one of the points that you made that was
6:27
Speaker 1: really essential is that academics need to be supporting the
6:30
Speaker 1: students because that's our responsibility, because you are our responsibility
6:35
Speaker 1: as our students, and that's something that I think we
6:38
Speaker 1: need to maybe look at unpacking a little bit, because,
6:43
Speaker 1: as you said, I remember you saying at the conference,
6:45
Speaker 1: or maybe it was one of your colleagues saying, it
6:47
Speaker 1: feels like we're living in nineteen eighty four at university now,
6:51
Speaker 1: which is obviously the opposite of what we're supposed to be.
6:55
Speaker 1: And I don't really quite understand at this point what
6:59
Speaker 1: we can do, because this is something that we need
7:02
Speaker 1: to work out. Do you think that students are afraid
7:06
Speaker 1: because they see their luxturers being afraid or do you
7:09
Speaker 1: think it's just like the entire social political climate going
7:13
Speaker 1: on in the UK right now, or what do you
7:16
Speaker 1: think it is? The fair it is that they need
7:18
Speaker 1: to face to be able to feel safe to say
7:20
Speaker 1: what they want to say in universities.
7:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, and I think it's quite
7:25
Speaker 2: multi faceted the answer. So I think from experience and
7:28
Speaker 2: having spoken to various other students. You know, you go
7:32
Speaker 2: to universities a real change for many young people, you know,
7:35
Speaker 2: especially if you're going and it's your first year, you're
7:37
Speaker 2: you're eighteen nineteen, you're an undergrad, you know, and you're
7:41
Speaker 2: maybe living away from home as well. You know, so
7:44
Speaker 2: it's a very much a brand new experience for you.
7:46
Speaker 2: And you're there also to make friends and you know,
7:48
Speaker 2: and to meet other people. And the problem with that
7:51
Speaker 2: is that you don't want to step out of your
7:54
Speaker 2: friendship group necessarily, you know, finding your friendship groups particularly
7:58
Speaker 2: difficult initially as well. But if you if you'd been
8:02
Speaker 2: taught that one point of view is the truth and
8:05
Speaker 2: that's the same point of view that it has to
8:07
Speaker 2: be kind of shared amongst that group of people, it's
8:10
Speaker 2: much easier to go along with that than it is
8:13
Speaker 2: to go against that kind of thought process, if you like.
8:17
Speaker 2: And then what's also happened in another aspect is that
8:20
Speaker 2: we're seeing a lot of activist kind of lecturers and
8:23
Speaker 2: universities as well, you know, so they are very much
8:27
Speaker 2: putting forward their their views as being the truth, you know,
8:31
Speaker 2: the one view that has to be kind of be
8:33
Speaker 2: adopting and fouled. Not it should be much more of
8:36
Speaker 2: a case of oh, yeah, okay, you have you have
8:38
Speaker 2: a view, you know, let's discuss it. Let's let's discuss
8:41
Speaker 2: what that view is. Let's you know, break it down.
8:43
Speaker 2: That's the whole point of going to university is to
8:46
Speaker 2: to you know, get your critical thinking skills in place,
8:50
Speaker 2: you know, to discuss and debate. And I think so,
8:54
Speaker 2: I think it's a there's a there's a social aspect
8:56
Speaker 2: to it that if you step out of that group,
8:58
Speaker 2: you know, out of that group think, if you like,
9:02
Speaker 2: you can certainly be you know, almost ostracized, you know,
9:06
Speaker 2: and treated as a leper to be honest. And that's
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Speaker 2: never that's not enjoyable for anybody, never mind a young
9:13
Speaker 2: person in eighteen nineteen, you know, who's who's just starting
9:16
Speaker 2: to go out and to do their studies, and then
9:18
Speaker 2: you've got the kind of in the in the seminars
9:21
Speaker 2: and in the lecture theaters, where again, if you're going
9:26
Speaker 2: against a tide of maybe one hundred people in that
9:28
Speaker 2: lecture theater, you know what you think, maybe going against
9:31
Speaker 2: the tide, you know, going against the fought, you feel
9:34
Speaker 2: very alone, you know. And I think that's one thing
9:37
Speaker 2: that SAPA is trying to do is to create this
9:40
Speaker 2: this basis of you're not alone. There are very much
9:43
Speaker 2: like minded other students and academics who who believe it
9:49
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what your view is, you should be able
9:52
Speaker 2: to voice that view. You know. Obviously within Breezing there's
9:55
Speaker 2: certain laws that we have to abide by, but you know,
9:58
Speaker 2: free expression and diversity of thought really needs to be
10:02
Speaker 2: pushed much more so. I think, yeah, there's it's very
10:06
Speaker 2: difficult for studency these days to be able to do
10:08
Speaker 2: that without feeling that they may be attacked from their
10:11
Speaker 2: peers or even from the academics you know that are
10:15
Speaker 2: supposed to be teaching them to think practically, you know,
10:17
Speaker 2: rather than to just go along a group think pathway.
10:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard from a student who, well, someone who
10:24
Speaker 1: wanted to become a student in a UK university and
10:27
Speaker 1: do a PhD. And this was something to look at
10:31
Speaker 1: the sort of the sexualization of children in school curriculum.
10:36
Speaker 1: And this is why I heard about it because they've
10:38
Speaker 1: seen my coverage on UK Colum about these issues and
10:41
Speaker 1: libraries and education. And this individual got an interview for
10:47
Speaker 1: a place for a PhD, and when they got to
10:51
Speaker 1: the interview, they were told by the potential supervisors that
10:54
Speaker 1: they were pro pro trands, if you want to say that,
10:58
Speaker 1: and so if they did anything in their research, I
11:00
Speaker 1: wanted to do anything in their research that was against
11:03
Speaker 1: that particular i'll say the transa agenda, the LGBT agenda,
11:09
Speaker 1: that they would not be agreed to be their supervisors
11:12
Speaker 1: only if they would stay on the sort of the
11:15
Speaker 1: pro trans side, and that anything else that they said
11:18
Speaker 1: or wanted to research would be considered transphobic. So as
11:21
Speaker 1: a result, this person was not able to get in
11:24
Speaker 1: to do the PhD at their chosen university. And this
11:28
Speaker 1: is where we're seeing these activists, Like you're saying, these
11:32
Speaker 1: issues around free speech, free debate, free expression. We've seen
11:36
Speaker 1: the high profile cases we've seen Professor jo Phoenix we've
11:39
Speaker 1: seen Kathleen Stock, we've seen well myself, all these things
11:44
Speaker 1: for gender critical views and these things that we've all encountered.
11:49
Speaker 1: When I think back to my own university training, and
11:52
Speaker 1: I guess leads to my next question for you is
11:55
Speaker 1: when I did my degrees, which was well, I finished
11:59
Speaker 1: my pH d and t that and six. At that point,
12:02
Speaker 1: we were told to ask whatever questions we wanted to ask, right,
12:05
Speaker 1: it was all about what do you want to know?
12:08
Speaker 1: What do you want to explore? And it was part
12:11
Speaker 1: of our job to come up with our own questions.
12:13
Speaker 1: It wasn't the job of the universities or of the
12:16
Speaker 1: our lecturers or our supervisors to tell us what we
12:18
Speaker 1: could or couldn't study. And I'm really surprised by how
12:23
Speaker 1: quickly this has changed. Right, so we've got eighteen years
12:25
Speaker 1: since I've finished my PhD, completely different landscapes since I've
12:29
Speaker 1: been a full time academic. And I guess since you said,
12:33
Speaker 1: as you said, you're a mature student, and you certainly
12:36
Speaker 1: don't have to disclose your age or how long ago
12:39
Speaker 1: you started university, but did you do your undergrad a
12:43
Speaker 1: long time ago or more recently? And I'm just wondering
12:45
Speaker 1: if you've seen any changes since you started studying to
12:49
Speaker 1: now when you're doing your masters.
12:51
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so I am. I AMM my forties now
12:54
Speaker 2: am forty three. So I'm freelate that I don't mind
12:57
Speaker 2: at all. I undergrad when I was eighteen I and
13:04
Speaker 2: so then I've had a gap of about twenty odd
13:07
Speaker 2: years of not having traditional education, if you like, I've
13:11
Speaker 2: been doing it through you know, qualifications, through my work. Yeah,
13:16
Speaker 2: the difference is quite insane to me, to be honest,
13:19
Speaker 2: because when I went to university, it was really a
13:21
Speaker 2: shock to the system. Going to university at eighteen, you
13:26
Speaker 2: were very much left alone almost to go and find
13:29
Speaker 2: your own way and to formulate ideas come back. You know,
13:32
Speaker 2: you would have your regular catch ups with lecturers, but
13:36
Speaker 2: it was very much a case of you are on
13:38
Speaker 2: your own. You have to come up with these ideas.
13:40
Speaker 2: You have to come forward particilarly as you go through
13:43
Speaker 2: the years. You know, when you get into third year
13:45
Speaker 2: or what have you, where you do need to use
13:47
Speaker 2: your own critical thinking and you do need to come
13:49
Speaker 2: up with with questions and challenges. Now I'm seeing do
13:55
Speaker 2: you even doing the masters that you're almost spoon fed
13:59
Speaker 2: to a certain day. Now I'm slightly different and that
14:01
Speaker 2: I do mine online so there's less of me being
14:04
Speaker 2: in a lecture all or on campus, but from the
14:08
Speaker 2: other students that I'm speaking to that are doing their
14:10
Speaker 2: undergraduate courses. Now, you know, there's this aspect of safetyism
14:16
Speaker 2: that has come about in universities that now, you know,
14:19
Speaker 2: these young adults are being treated almost like children, you know,
14:23
Speaker 2: and they're not. They're young adults. You know, if you
14:25
Speaker 2: if you can get your grades and you can get
14:27
Speaker 2: into university, you're a young adult. And they're not being
14:30
Speaker 2: treated that way. They're being treated with you know, safe spaces,
14:34
Speaker 2: you know, trigger warnings, you know, things that you just think,
14:38
Speaker 2: this is, this is not what you should be doing
14:41
Speaker 2: with young adults. You know, they're there to learn them
14:44
Speaker 2: they should be getting challenged, they should be feeling you know,
14:49
Speaker 2: this is a totally different situation. You know, they've got
14:52
Speaker 2: to think for themselves. I've got to come up with
14:53
Speaker 2: these questions, and that's not happening. What we're seeing a
14:56
Speaker 2: lot of is we've seen a lot of you know,
14:59
Speaker 2: just tations or courseworks being pushed in a you know,
15:03
Speaker 2: a direction not open to having different diversity of thought.
15:08
Speaker 2: You know, having different viewpoints. It's very much like, this
15:12
Speaker 2: is what we want you to do, so you have
15:14
Speaker 2: to go down that track. And you know, and we
15:17
Speaker 2: see that from the questions posed by some you know courses.
15:21
Speaker 2: You know, we've seen it the literally at one of
15:24
Speaker 2: the universities, an engineering course is you know, again asking
15:29
Speaker 2: students to to design and develop a safe space for
15:33
Speaker 2: lgbt Q plus you know people, I mean it's engineering.
15:38
Speaker 2: I don't quite understand that, you know. And we've got
15:41
Speaker 2: a range of students who come from multiple different backgrounds,
15:45
Speaker 2: you know, with various different religio, religious reviews, cultural, you know,
15:50
Speaker 2: norms that that would feel uncomfortable doing that, you know,
15:53
Speaker 2: and pushing back against that. And I think, you know,
15:56
Speaker 2: we talk about the gender kind of issue, it's not
15:59
Speaker 2: even just about that. It's about impacting on free speech.
16:02
Speaker 2: You know. The gender issue is quite prominent because it
16:04
Speaker 2: has impacted on you know a lot of academics free speech,
16:09
Speaker 2: you know, such as Kathleen Stop through Phoenix. But there's
16:13
Speaker 2: also other you know, kind of critical social justice ideologies
16:17
Speaker 2: which exists. You know. I've seen it from critical race theories,
16:21
Speaker 2: for instance, being taught in psychology to clinical psychologists as
16:25
Speaker 2: if that's to be on end on the truth. And
16:28
Speaker 2: you know, for a lot of we've got a few members,
16:31
Speaker 2: young white males, they feel absolutely ostracized, you know, and
16:35
Speaker 2: made to feel guilty for something that they cannot and
16:40
Speaker 2: have no power over, which is how they were born,
16:43
Speaker 2: you know. So it's it's it's kind of eat into
16:47
Speaker 2: every single kind of aspect of university life at the moment,
16:52
Speaker 2: and it's it's really difficult for students to to hold
16:56
Speaker 2: a different view, you know, and not feel wostra site.
17:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm worried particularly well for all of you. But
17:05
Speaker 1: when I think about the eighteen year olds and what
17:08
Speaker 1: their experience has been like, you know, first of all,
17:10
Speaker 1: they went through high school during COVID when they should
17:13
Speaker 1: have been having a little bit more normal high school life,
17:16
Speaker 1: but they were locked away in their rooms and having
17:19
Speaker 1: class on zoom. And now they're in university and now
17:22
Speaker 1: they can't say anything, and now they're probably still scared
17:25
Speaker 1: because I would imagine that the COVID era for young
17:29
Speaker 1: people would be particularly scary, not really understanding the world,
17:33
Speaker 1: not having lived long enough to think back what it
17:36
Speaker 1: was like to be an adult before you had to
17:38
Speaker 1: do all this ridiculous stuff that they tried to make
17:41
Speaker 1: us do, and then now they're in a place where
17:45
Speaker 1: they can't speak, they can't say anything. And sometimes I
17:49
Speaker 1: wonder about that, if that COVID period of sort of
17:51
Speaker 1: growing up and being an adolescent, and that time when
17:55
Speaker 1: the government was so called protecting us, but really they
17:57
Speaker 1: were just controlling us. Do you think that maybe that
18:02
Speaker 1: experience now has led them to feel more like, well,
18:05
Speaker 1: this is how the world is, because they've never known
18:08
Speaker 1: anything else. I don't know how much contact you have
18:11
Speaker 1: with the younger students, but I'm just wondering if that
18:15
Speaker 1: experience has made them more accepting now of how things are.
18:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's it's definitely a
18:24
Speaker 2: different kind of world that you know, most of these
18:27
Speaker 2: students are now at university have gone through. They haven't
18:30
Speaker 2: had the normal course of being a teenager. I feel like,
18:33
Speaker 2: you know, growing up and when you go to university,
18:37
Speaker 2: you know, one of the one of the joys of
18:39
Speaker 2: going to university is to make friends and to enjoy
18:41
Speaker 2: yourself and to say strip at things and not be
18:45
Speaker 2: fearful that what you've said in the student union the
18:48
Speaker 2: night before isn't going to come back and haunt you
18:50
Speaker 2: the next day in a lecture hall, for instance. And
18:53
Speaker 2: you know, I think one of the key things that
18:55
Speaker 2: we are finding, and one of the one of the
18:57
Speaker 2: things we're pushing back on, is that ability to say
19:00
Speaker 2: something stupid, you know, and to say, you know, something
19:03
Speaker 2: that is not going to haunt you for the rest
19:07
Speaker 2: of your life because it shouldn't. You know, you're at university.
19:10
Speaker 2: Student unions are a really good example of where it's
19:13
Speaker 2: become actually extremely difficult for students to go and to
19:18
Speaker 2: be able to speak and have a different opinion. You know.
19:21
Speaker 2: I remember my day is going to the student union,
19:23
Speaker 2: you know, after I mean going maybe a few nights
19:26
Speaker 2: through that week, because that's what students do, and you know,
19:29
Speaker 2: you might you might have a few drinks, you might
19:31
Speaker 2: say something stupid, you have a joke and a laugh,
19:34
Speaker 2: and you'll disagree with each other because you know, inevitably
19:38
Speaker 2: politics might come up. So you have different views on politics,
19:41
Speaker 2: you know, and you have a good discussion and it's
19:44
Speaker 2: all fine because you know that the next day or
19:46
Speaker 2: most of it's going to be it's nothing. It's just
19:48
Speaker 2: a discussion. It's a talking point. But what we're seeing
19:51
Speaker 2: now is that, you know, something that can happen the
19:54
Speaker 2: night before one one world slip. You know, something that's
19:58
Speaker 2: just very innocent can suddenly be come such a big,
20:01
Speaker 2: overblown thing, and you know, it can really haunt a
20:03
Speaker 2: lot of students, you know, seeing that on campuses where
20:06
Speaker 2: students are you know, they're literally bullied into submission, you know,
20:11
Speaker 2: because they've said something off the cuff, you know, the
20:15
Speaker 2: night before in the student union. And student unions are
20:19
Speaker 2: one of the areas that I think we will kind
20:21
Speaker 2: of focus on and push push on for SAFAF next
20:24
Speaker 2: year because you know, the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act,
20:29
Speaker 2: which should have come into place, would have put duties
20:31
Speaker 2: on student unions to to make sure they had academic
20:35
Speaker 2: freedom in those and that's not not happened. And we
20:38
Speaker 2: see student unions time and time again canceling speakers, you know,
20:43
Speaker 2: not not wanting to to do events because it's not
20:47
Speaker 2: the group think, it's not the standard accepted you know,
20:53
Speaker 2: kind of you know, you know issue of the day
20:55
Speaker 2: that everybody accepts. You know, when there's ever a kind
20:57
Speaker 2: of slightly different opinion, they will shut it down. Now
21:00
Speaker 2: we're seeing them do that where speakers coming to two
21:03
Speaker 2: events we've seeing them doing that with academics, they do
21:05
Speaker 2: it with students as well. You know, you cannot do
21:07
Speaker 2: something that they don't approve of, which is insanity to
21:11
Speaker 2: me because student unions are for students, that's the whole point,
21:15
Speaker 2: you know, but they have been kind of captured as well.
21:18
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, there's a lot of students should go
21:20
Speaker 2: and have fun at university and lam yes, absolutely, but
21:24
Speaker 2: there's this fear factor. Now that's crept on, which is
21:28
Speaker 2: a real, real sad state of avails.
21:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, I started university in nineteen ninety three, and I
21:36
Speaker 1: there's lots of things that I did in nineteen ninety
21:38
Speaker 1: three and the few years after that that I'm really
21:41
Speaker 1: happy that there was no social media or substantial internet
21:44
Speaker 1: at the time to record any of it. And that's
21:46
Speaker 1: in the past, which is where it needs to stay.
21:49
Speaker 1: But I think that should be true for everyone to
21:52
Speaker 1: have those experiences when they're younger. And you know, there's
21:55
Speaker 1: some things in particular that I remember about, especially when
21:59
Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to my under grad years. My university,
22:02
Speaker 1: which was the University of North Texas. We had a
22:06
Speaker 1: lot of political events, but they were on sort of
22:09
Speaker 1: all sides of the political spectrum. And so even back
22:12
Speaker 1: then I was I was interested in active in politics,
22:15
Speaker 1: and so I would go to certain speeches whether or
22:18
Speaker 1: not I agreed with them. And that was kind of
22:21
Speaker 1: the whole point was that, you know, then you would
22:23
Speaker 1: go for a drink after and have your discussion about
22:26
Speaker 1: what they said. But you didn't report anybody, you didn't
22:29
Speaker 1: file complaints, you didn't try to ruin somebody's education over it.
22:34
Speaker 1: You just kind of went on and said, Okay, I
22:36
Speaker 1: don't agree with you, and that would be the end
22:39
Speaker 1: of it. It was never this, oh, you know you're
22:42
Speaker 1: going to be complained about, I'm going to file agreements.
22:44
Speaker 1: You need to be disciplined, you need to be thrown
22:47
Speaker 1: out of your program because you don't agree with me,
22:50
Speaker 1: which is the climate we're in now. And you also
22:52
Speaker 1: had the right to be offensive. I remember we had
22:56
Speaker 1: this particular area on my campus that was called the
22:59
Speaker 1: free speech are literally labeled that the whole campus was
23:02
Speaker 1: free speech. But this was like if you want to
23:04
Speaker 1: have a sort of a demonstration or something, And so
23:07
Speaker 1: a couple of times a year, these people that were
23:11
Speaker 1: very active in pro life, supporting pro life activism and
23:15
Speaker 1: so on, they would bring these huge photographs of aborted
23:19
Speaker 1: fetuses and you'd see the actual remains. They were horrible,
23:24
Speaker 1: they were disgusting. I personally avoided it because I just
23:29
Speaker 1: didn't like to see them. But they had a point
23:32
Speaker 1: they wanted to make, and that's how they were making
23:35
Speaker 1: an impact. But nowadays everyone is so overly sensitive that
23:39
Speaker 1: you can't even have an exhibit. I know a colleague
23:45
Speaker 1: who's a professor at another UK university who's talked about
23:49
Speaker 1: how students won't go into museums. His students in particular
23:54
Speaker 1: won't go into the university's museums because there's offensive material
24:00
Speaker 1: because it's considered to be colonialist or anti whatever, anti racist,
24:07
Speaker 1: I guess. But you know, back, you know, just thirty
24:11
Speaker 1: years ago or even twenty years ago, when I was
24:13
Speaker 1: doing my postgraduate degrees, you would have been required to
24:16
Speaker 1: do that because you were supposed to feel uncomfortable at times.
24:22
Speaker 1: But now the sheltering of students from you know, what
24:27
Speaker 1: may or may not be true for them, what they
24:29
Speaker 1: may or may not believe in, is just something that
24:31
Speaker 1: they're just putting off to one side and pretending that
24:34
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. And as you say, that's a really
24:37
Speaker 1: really important thing. In universities. I know of some particular
24:42
Speaker 1: examples from the University of Glasgow museums, but I think
24:46
Speaker 1: it's the Intereian Museum. I don't know if you know
24:48
Speaker 1: anything about that. What they've done there was some of
24:51
Speaker 1: their agenda if you want, if you do a want that,
24:52
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear you talk about it a little bit.
24:54
Speaker 1: That's your university.
24:56
Speaker 2: I don't know of that particular, certainly know of some
25:01
Speaker 2: issues around obviously, the Hunitarian has, you know, particular exhibits
25:05
Speaker 2: which may be uncomfortable for anybody to look at, you know,
25:09
Speaker 2: and that's that's a human reaction, you know, looking at
25:14
Speaker 2: fetuses for instance. You know, these are things that are
25:16
Speaker 2: not pleasant to look at, but they were they served
25:19
Speaker 2: a purpose because they were for science, you know, and
25:22
Speaker 2: they were studied and we made so many advances off
25:25
Speaker 2: the back of these types of things. I mean, the
25:28
Speaker 2: thing with the kind of pro life, I mean, yes,
25:31
Speaker 2: absolutely it's unpleasant to see. But you do not have
25:35
Speaker 2: a right to be offended. You know, in this country
25:38
Speaker 2: you can avoid it. You can choose not to be
25:41
Speaker 2: offended by it by not going to there. Whereas what's
25:44
Speaker 2: happening now is that people are being offended by and
25:47
Speaker 2: therefore everybody must not go to it, you know, every
25:50
Speaker 2: it must be canceled. You know, for instance, the University
25:54
Speaker 2: of Berlin I think it is, or one of the
25:56
Speaker 2: universities in Berlin at the moment, has reviews to to
26:02
Speaker 2: have a Holocaust display at the university. I can't think
26:07
Speaker 2: of anything more ridiculous in my life than a university
26:10
Speaker 2: in Berlin. And the reason being is that it would
26:14
Speaker 2: make some people uncomfortable. And yes, it should make you uncomfortable.
26:19
Speaker 2: The Holocaust was horrific. You should have a physical and
26:24
Speaker 2: emotional reaction to something like that. And I think that's
26:27
Speaker 2: the key bit is again we talk about decolonization, you know,
26:32
Speaker 2: University of Glasgow for instance, it's quite big on decolonization.
26:36
Speaker 2: You know, we cannot escape our past. We cannot escape
26:39
Speaker 2: our history, even if we look at it now and
26:41
Speaker 2: think that was wrong, we should never have done that.
26:45
Speaker 2: These are different times. You know. We cannot look at
26:47
Speaker 2: what happened in history with the same classes that we
26:50
Speaker 2: have on today. You know, that's impossible. What's happened in
26:53
Speaker 2: the past has led us to where we are today.
26:55
Speaker 2: We know that slavery is bad, you know, we understand
26:59
Speaker 2: that these things should not have happened, but they did,
27:02
Speaker 2: you know, and there was a different time and there
27:04
Speaker 2: was a different mentality to that. And actually, what would
27:07
Speaker 2: be better rather than decolonizing the curriculum is to learn
27:12
Speaker 2: from it, you know, don't hide the history. Teach the history,
27:16
Speaker 2: you know, teaches what was bad, make us think, you know,
27:20
Speaker 2: make us think was that bad? What was that good?
27:21
Speaker 2: What has led to this? Now? You know, where are
27:24
Speaker 2: we in it in terms of what we do now?
27:27
Speaker 2: And there's this idea of trying to kind of rub
27:30
Speaker 2: out the history that we have had as a country
27:34
Speaker 2: as a people because it's uncomfortable to some who attend
27:39
Speaker 2: university or to some other people. And that's that's ridiculous.
27:42
Speaker 2: You know. We we cannot have an atmosphere on university
27:46
Speaker 2: and universities where because some people are uncomfortable, everyone else
27:52
Speaker 2: is not allowed to go and experience the you know,
27:55
Speaker 2: the exhibit or the you know, the art gallery showing
28:00
Speaker 2: a particular type of annual an artist work who's been canceled,
28:04
Speaker 2: for instance. So yeah, I think there's that element of
28:08
Speaker 2: you do not have the right to be offended, and
28:10
Speaker 2: that needs to come across in universities much more than
28:14
Speaker 2: I think it does. Now. You know, you can be offended, absolutely,
28:18
Speaker 2: you just don't have the right to say that nobody
28:20
Speaker 2: else can go and see these things. That's that's where
28:23
Speaker 2: I think SOFA is pushing back. You know, we have
28:26
Speaker 2: to say that's fine, but that doesn't impact on everything else.
28:30
Speaker 2: You know, it can't impact on everything else.
28:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the interesting thing is declonization is one of
28:35
Speaker 1: the things that I have a part of my larger
28:39
Speaker 1: cancelation because I spoke out against it, particularly in libraries,
28:43
Speaker 1: because that's my background is in my brandship. And the
28:47
Speaker 1: ironic thing about it is that in particular I spoke
28:51
Speaker 1: out against decalonization in Scotland because we are in the
28:56
Speaker 1: home of the Scottish Enlightenment, right, So many amazing things
29:00
Speaker 1: happened during that time period that contributed to human knowledge
29:04
Speaker 1: and development and civilization as we know it in so
29:08
Speaker 1: many ways. And what I don't understand about it here
29:12
Speaker 1: in the UK is that that you this is your
29:17
Speaker 1: this is your native home. If you are born here,
29:20
Speaker 1: if you are British, if you're Scottish, if you're English,
29:22
Speaker 1: if you're Welsh, if you're that is this is your home,
29:25
Speaker 1: So you're basically if you're canceling the history that is
29:30
Speaker 1: said to be racist, whatever colonialism, that is part of
29:36
Speaker 1: your history. And all of us have bad parts in
29:38
Speaker 1: our history. In America, we have bad parts in our history,
29:41
Speaker 1: but we can't change it. Like you said, we have
29:43
Speaker 1: to learn from it. And what I was trying to
29:46
Speaker 1: do was actually compliment the background in Scotland of all
29:50
Speaker 1: of the amazing work that has been done here in
29:53
Speaker 1: our ancient universities in the UK. But for some reason,
29:56
Speaker 1: that was one of the things that I have been
29:58
Speaker 1: in trouble for for because I was trying to stand
30:01
Speaker 1: up for this country that I moved over here to
30:04
Speaker 1: work in the universities here. But for some reason that
30:07
Speaker 1: led to part of my cancelation. It's so it's very strange,
30:11
Speaker 1: but I think that it's being taught. So this is
30:18
Speaker 1: something that students should be aware of as well, is
30:21
Speaker 1: that new lecturers are being taught decolonization in their training.
30:25
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure how many people are aware of this,
30:28
Speaker 1: or even students know, But when you become a lecturer
30:32
Speaker 1: or even a PhD student or post doc with any
30:35
Speaker 1: teaching responsibilities, you have to do basically it's called a
30:39
Speaker 1: pg sert, or in my case, I got the Diploma
30:43
Speaker 1: in Learning about Teaching and Learning in a UK system right,
30:48
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you usually would have
30:51
Speaker 1: to do is learn how to supervise students, learn how
30:54
Speaker 1: to conduct a viva, Learn how to create curriculum, learn
30:57
Speaker 1: what it should be on a reading list, how can
30:59
Speaker 1: you how can you provide support to your students? All
31:03
Speaker 1: these different like practical things that you need to know.
31:06
Speaker 1: But part of the curriculum now through what's called the
31:09
Speaker 1: Advanced h which gives the teaching credentials for UK lectures,
31:14
Speaker 1: is that decolonizing the curriculum is actually part of the requirement.
31:18
Speaker 1: And even when I went through it when I first
31:20
Speaker 1: moved to the UK, which was ten years ago, we
31:23
Speaker 1: didn't have to learn decolonization. We learned the practical parts
31:26
Speaker 1: that you actually need to know. But that is now
31:29
Speaker 1: part of what is required to learn to get your
31:33
Speaker 1: pg sert so that you have your teaching qualification. So
31:36
Speaker 1: it's actually built into the structure. So either people are
31:39
Speaker 1: trying to go back and learn it if they didn't
31:41
Speaker 1: learn already, but the new lecturers are being presented with
31:44
Speaker 1: it and they have to learn it to be able
31:46
Speaker 1: to pass to get their credential. So that's that's how captured.
31:50
Speaker 1: It's become the accrediting body for teaching qualifications now requires it.
31:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would say that this is kind of
31:58
Speaker 2: endemic of what happened in an universities fill stop, you
32:01
Speaker 2: know with ed I for instance. You know, it's it's
32:04
Speaker 2: part of that whole EDI process, you know, and we
32:08
Speaker 2: see it, you know, whether it's whether it's decolonizing the curriculum,
32:13
Speaker 2: or whether it's making safe spaces or really whatever. I mean.
32:17
Speaker 2: If I look at some of the kind of key
32:21
Speaker 2: EDI initiatives of which are pushed in universities, a penis
32:25
Speaker 2: Wan for instance, is a really perfect example of that.
32:28
Speaker 2: And most universities, certainly of a particular standard have have
32:33
Speaker 2: adopted a Finois one. Now that standard itself, when it
32:37
Speaker 2: first started, was designed to get more women into STEM
32:42
Speaker 2: courses and also into academia for STEM. So and now
32:47
Speaker 2: now we're faced with no longer being for women. It
32:50
Speaker 2: can be for anybody who identifies as a woman, so anybody,
32:55
Speaker 2: and you know, and for universities, it costs a lot
32:59
Speaker 2: of money to get an AFENA slating accreditation. A lot
33:03
Speaker 2: of money, and it costs a lot of time, and
33:06
Speaker 2: that time comes from the lecturers and professors who have
33:10
Speaker 2: to sign up to do it, and various departments can
33:12
Speaker 2: do it, or the university can do it, but it's
33:15
Speaker 2: years in the making to get an award for a
33:17
Speaker 2: fenix one, which I would question is it worthwhile because
33:20
Speaker 2: it's not actually doing what it initially set out to
33:23
Speaker 2: do in the first place? And yes, is it actually
33:27
Speaker 2: pushing a kind of ideology into the universities, into lecturers,
33:31
Speaker 2: into departments, which is then getting pushed down into the
33:34
Speaker 2: students it's taught. It's kind of, you know, part and
33:37
Speaker 2: parcel of your course, which I disagree with. I'm a woman,
33:41
Speaker 2: I'm all for advancing women and women in STEM, but
33:45
Speaker 2: when you open the category of women up to include men,
33:48
Speaker 2: you've lost that. Then you no longer have that. You know,
33:51
Speaker 2: that's not your driving factor anymore, that's not your goal.
33:54
Speaker 2: What it is now is just a case of you
33:56
Speaker 2: do this. It's a tick box exercise, a very long,
33:59
Speaker 2: very spence of tick box exercise for universities, which, as
34:03
Speaker 2: we know, they're extremely cash strapped at the moment. I
34:06
Speaker 2: questioned spending tens of thousands of pounds on an award
34:10
Speaker 2: which does nothing other than add a symbol to your
34:13
Speaker 2: to your website, when that money could be getting better
34:16
Speaker 2: spent on students, you know, on providing the key information
34:22
Speaker 2: even mental health services for students, improving that. We talked
34:25
Speaker 2: about COVID and how that's impacted on student mental health.
34:30
Speaker 2: You know, directing that money to where it actually think
34:32
Speaker 2: it really should be going would be much better time spent.
34:35
Speaker 2: But I think this is a problem with EDI is
34:38
Speaker 2: that once it gets in there, it becomes standard practice,
34:42
Speaker 2: and nobody is willing to question and stand up and say,
34:47
Speaker 2: I think this is a waste of money in all honesty,
34:50
Speaker 2: and I think the university resources could be much better spent.
34:54
Speaker 2: And we need people to start doing that, you know,
34:56
Speaker 2: we need people to push back and say, sorry, this
34:59
Speaker 2: is a waste of money. This is not going to
35:01
Speaker 2: do us any good. But until we do that, we'll
35:05
Speaker 2: stop with this EDI kind of ideal. Old you if
35:09
Speaker 2: you like, and universities.
35:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and it doesn't help us as
35:14
Speaker 1: women who you know, if we think back even just
35:18
Speaker 1: to the generation before our generation, right where women had
35:23
Speaker 1: to work so hard to get to where they are.
35:25
Speaker 1: I've heard I heard of speech once from a woman
35:27
Speaker 1: in my fields. She wrote a speech that I maybe
35:32
Speaker 1: I will link to it in the write up for
35:34
Speaker 1: this interview. Her name is Professor Marcia Bates from my field,
35:39
Speaker 1: and she was a pioneering woman. And she told her
35:43
Speaker 1: story when she got this high award in one of
35:46
Speaker 1: our professional societies, and she gave a speech that brought
35:49
Speaker 1: me to tears because she talked about how much harder
35:51
Speaker 1: she had to work as a woman when she was
35:53
Speaker 1: coming up through academian sort of the nineteen seventies, to work,
35:58
Speaker 1: to work twice as hard, to do twice as much teaching,
36:00
Speaker 1: to do twice as much admin because women are expected
36:03
Speaker 1: to do those things, and how much more she had
36:06
Speaker 1: to publish. And she retired early because she got burned
36:09
Speaker 1: out because she works so hard. And I think back
36:12
Speaker 1: to her and I think, well, she's worked that hard
36:14
Speaker 1: to pave the way for women of my generation and
36:17
Speaker 1: then maybe the ones after mine to you know, may
36:21
Speaker 1: have things be a bit easier than they were back then.
36:24
Speaker 1: But all of this ideology is actually, in my opinion,
36:27
Speaker 1: rolling women's women's opportunities backwards a bit, right, So actually
36:32
Speaker 1: we now have to allow the non binary people and
36:37
Speaker 1: those who identify as us into the place where we've
36:42
Speaker 1: worked so hard and women before us worked so hard
36:46
Speaker 1: to get there, and people don't see it that way.
36:49
Speaker 1: It's very, very regressive. Very that's the right word that
36:55
Speaker 1: basically we're saying, well, just because you believe this way,
36:59
Speaker 1: or you think this way, or you like a certain color,
37:01
Speaker 1: then you are going to change to be a woman
37:05
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. It really it's very demeaning to
37:08
Speaker 1: us as women and for the things that we still
37:11
Speaker 1: have to fight against. That when we're talking about safe spaces,
37:15
Speaker 1: I you know, it bothers me because I'm very public
37:18
Speaker 1: about saying that I was raped at university when I
37:20
Speaker 1: was nineteen and there was nothing available for me to
37:24
Speaker 1: help me. Nobody believed me, nobody helped me. And when
37:29
Speaker 1: we talk about safe spaces, would we hear that people
37:32
Speaker 1: are filing complaints and trying to end careers and educations
37:35
Speaker 1: because someone said the wrong word compared to the things
37:39
Speaker 1: that I actually experienced and had to fight through to
37:41
Speaker 1: get to even to finish my degree with just a
37:44
Speaker 1: bit of my sanity left by the end of it,
37:47
Speaker 1: and then all the years it took from me to
37:48
Speaker 1: try to recover it. Actually, I think discounts the experiences
37:52
Speaker 1: of those of us who have actually been through traumatic
37:55
Speaker 1: events that now someone can say the wrong word and
37:59
Speaker 1: that's that's it for that person. They need a safe space,
38:01
Speaker 1: they can't help. It really discounts the true, the true
38:07
Speaker 1: traumas that people go through, I think, and it's it's
38:10
Speaker 1: dangerous for that reason as well.
38:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd agree. I mean, I think it kind of
38:16
Speaker 2: desensitizes us all to what is actually the real, you
38:21
Speaker 2: know issues. I mean, I think rape on university's campuses,
38:25
Speaker 2: it's never been appropriately dealt with. You know, it's still
38:28
Speaker 2: an issue. You know, they still we still hear reports
38:31
Speaker 2: every so often of young women, for instance, committing suicide,
38:35
Speaker 2: you know, even because of what's going on, and they
38:38
Speaker 2: haven't had any support at all. Yet. If you feel
38:41
Speaker 2: offended by someone's viewpoint, you can raise agrievements. You can
38:45
Speaker 2: be you know, almost wrapped in cotton will because you've
38:50
Speaker 2: been you've been hurt by some words, which is just
38:52
Speaker 2: you know, again, it just a beggars belief to be fair.
38:55
Speaker 2: And you know, when I look at some of these
38:57
Speaker 2: EDI initiatives, I mean, if you know, and again, will
39:01
Speaker 2: provides you with a link to the Sapha substack. We've done,
39:05
Speaker 2: you know, pieces on the fact that actually it hasn't
39:09
Speaker 2: made zero difference to the amount of women in academia
39:13
Speaker 2: that's come in you know, over the past s x
39:14
Speaker 2: amount of years it's been running for, it's actually made
39:19
Speaker 2: no material difference to the amount of women that are
39:21
Speaker 2: in STEM in academia. You know, the gender pay gap
39:26
Speaker 2: still exists. You know, there's still a limited amount of
39:29
Speaker 2: senior women in those in those areas. So actually, you know,
39:32
Speaker 2: what it's intended to do is actually not doing that
39:35
Speaker 2: at all. You know, what we're doing is we're focusing
39:37
Speaker 2: on one I think, her worlds and you know, hurt
39:40
Speaker 2: feelings rather than the key issues of actually, are we
39:44
Speaker 2: really doing the right things by students, such as are
39:47
Speaker 2: we providing support when these incidents happen on campus? You know,
39:51
Speaker 2: are we really making sure that mentally well, you know,
39:54
Speaker 2: in terms of being able to do the course first
39:56
Speaker 2: of all, you know, as you say, coming from COVID
39:59
Speaker 2: walked away for two years pretty much, you know, and
40:01
Speaker 2: suddenly you're you know, where's the support there? You know, again,
40:06
Speaker 2: I question the kind of leadership really of these universities
40:13
Speaker 2: and what feces are doing about it. You know, I
40:15
Speaker 2: don't think feces are being held to account enough for
40:19
Speaker 2: what's happening on their campuses when it comes to students.
40:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, we hear things about the gender
40:26
Speaker 1: pay gap and academia, and it's it's also issues of
40:31
Speaker 1: promotion as well, because I actually have statistics that I've
40:36
Speaker 1: found that say, you know, I achieved the title of
40:39
Speaker 1: full professor in my field, but only so only ten
40:43
Speaker 1: percent of people who become academics get promoted to professor,
40:49
Speaker 1: and only ten percent of professors are women as of
40:52
Speaker 1: right now. And so that just it just goes to
40:56
Speaker 1: show that despite all the hard work that you know,
40:59
Speaker 1: baby boomers did and women before us, So that me
41:03
Speaker 1: considering myself Generation X, it's sort of the generation app
41:06
Speaker 1: the baby boomers were still fighting the same things just
41:10
Speaker 1: as hard as or you know, it's still just as difficult,
41:13
Speaker 1: maybe not as much as what the first pioneers that
41:16
Speaker 1: started it for us, and that you write the issues
41:20
Speaker 1: with the Atheno Swan. I had to do a little
41:22
Speaker 1: bits and pieces of that previously. It just did not
41:27
Speaker 1: really address the issues. It didn't it didn't change anything.
41:32
Speaker 1: It was all about from my perspective anyway, a lot
41:36
Speaker 1: of ticking boxes, like you said, a lot of record keeping,
41:39
Speaker 1: a lot of well, you know, doing surveys which were
41:44
Speaker 1: obviously they do these staff surveys and say, well, do
41:47
Speaker 1: you feel that you're treated equally? Am I going to
41:50
Speaker 1: answer that honestly, no, because there aren't enough women in
41:54
Speaker 1: my field, or in my department or in my university
41:58
Speaker 1: that I'll be identified. It will figure out, oh it's anonymous. No,
42:01
Speaker 1: it's not anonymous. They will find you, and they will
42:03
Speaker 1: hand you if you say, now, I don't feel like
42:06
Speaker 1: I'm being treated equally. Right, So there's there's still a
42:09
Speaker 1: lot of risk involved in answering those because they obviously
42:12
Speaker 1: want the accreditation, but it's if the women were actually
42:16
Speaker 1: honest in a lot of the situations, they wouldn't receive it.
42:19
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think you know, again as this we
42:23
Speaker 2: all know. I mean, I study psychology, I know how
42:25
Speaker 2: surveys work. You know, you send it out, you get
42:28
Speaker 2: a small proportion of people that reply. Those people that
42:31
Speaker 2: reply are normally motivated to reply. You know everybody else
42:34
Speaker 2: who looks at it. I think you know, if you're
42:36
Speaker 2: not motivated, you won't do it, you know, so you're
42:39
Speaker 2: getting it skewed towards one opinion again, and this is
42:43
Speaker 2: what happens. And this is where research actually is really
42:46
Speaker 2: difficult to do, you know, in universities as well, because
42:50
Speaker 2: the only certain research is getting published. You know, we're
42:53
Speaker 2: seeing that many PhD students either can't get a PhD
42:58
Speaker 2: started because they you know, again nobody wants to supervise them.
43:02
Speaker 2: You know, it's really difficult to get that getting so
43:05
Speaker 2: getting paid PhD opportunities is really difficult, particularly when you
43:09
Speaker 2: want to look at things which are again I will
43:13
Speaker 2: see controversial, but they're really not controversial, you know, they
43:16
Speaker 2: are things related to you know, our EDI practices work.
43:20
Speaker 2: And I think there was a recent paper that was published.
43:23
Speaker 2: I can't remember who did it, but it kind of
43:25
Speaker 2: said EDII doesn't actually work, you know. If anything, it
43:28
Speaker 2: has the opposite effect, you know, and I think we
43:32
Speaker 2: see that, and you know in young males coming up
43:35
Speaker 2: for instance, you know, I see that how they're affected.
43:38
Speaker 2: So I think it comes down to the fact that
43:40
Speaker 2: we've pushed this identity politics and universities as and wider life,
43:45
Speaker 2: but very much in academia, you know, where it's it's
43:48
Speaker 2: all about who belonging to a particular cohort, whereas actually, no,
43:52
Speaker 2: it's it's all about your merit. It's about what you
43:55
Speaker 2: bring to the table. And I think we've stopped teaching
43:57
Speaker 2: that to students, whether in schools, you know, straight up
44:03
Speaker 2: the end of the days. It should it shouldn't be
44:05
Speaker 2: about the color of your skin or what sex you are,
44:08
Speaker 2: or what culture come from. It should be how hard
44:11
Speaker 2: you work at university and how much you put in
44:14
Speaker 2: personally to get that. And one of our students, Shivin,
44:18
Speaker 2: who he wrote a substat recently about that, you know
44:20
Speaker 2: about the fact that you know there's incentives now your
44:24
Speaker 2: initiatives only directed towards a particular cohort of people you know,
44:29
Speaker 2: and and and that's the detriment to the fast majority.
44:33
Speaker 2: And again to bring in that the best person for
44:36
Speaker 2: the job, you know, is a person that works the
44:39
Speaker 2: hardest and studies the most. And it's not about the
44:42
Speaker 2: color of your skin, it's not about what sex you are.
44:45
Speaker 2: It's about how hard you are and how and how
44:47
Speaker 2: you know merit really, and we've lost this idea of
44:50
Speaker 2: the merit kind of principle if you like at university,
44:53
Speaker 2: which I think is really sad because that's the whole
44:54
Speaker 2: point of going to university. You did well enough to
44:57
Speaker 2: get into university. Now you've got to prove of your
45:00
Speaker 2: shale even more to get your degree. But now it's
45:03
Speaker 2: all about identity politics, and that's a real shame because
45:06
Speaker 2: it disadvantages a lot of very good students who work very,
45:12
Speaker 2: very hard but don't get the opportunities at the other end.
45:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's something to remember as well
45:18
Speaker 1: as if we go back to Martin Luther King, right,
45:21
Speaker 1: where he talked about everyone being created equal and how
45:24
Speaker 1: we shouldn't judge people by the color of our skin,
45:26
Speaker 1: and he was an inspiration for the entire civil rights
45:29
Speaker 1: movements in America, right, And again it's another these are
45:33
Speaker 1: also still regressive policies in my opinion, because we're going
45:36
Speaker 1: back to that. It's just, you know, different groups are different,
45:41
Speaker 1: and this whole issue of labels is all something that
45:44
Speaker 1: we shouldn't even be really doing at all. But that's
45:47
Speaker 1: and it also seems to me that there is a
45:50
Speaker 1: kind of a hierarchy of labels, right, so that there's
45:53
Speaker 1: certain labels at the top who get the most priority
45:55
Speaker 1: and people at the bottom, So let's say straight white
45:59
Speaker 1: men are at the very bottom, and then they're the
46:02
Speaker 1: ones now being disadvantaged in favor of let's say, you
46:05
Speaker 1: know the intersectionality of a trans black identifying male or
46:10
Speaker 1: something right or female. Probably, So those are things that
46:15
Speaker 1: really were going backwards, and they seem to think that
46:18
Speaker 1: they're being all progressive, but really it seems to me
46:21
Speaker 1: just to be the opposite is what's actually happening. And
46:24
Speaker 1: I don't know how long it's going to take for
46:27
Speaker 1: people to realize that we have that they are putting
46:29
Speaker 1: themselves backwards with these ridiculous EDII policies you mentioned. Also, Earl,
46:35
Speaker 1: I want to make sure to get this in a
46:37
Speaker 1: little bit, the Higher Education Freedom Speech Act, And of
46:42
Speaker 1: course that doesn't apply to us in Scotland. It only
46:44
Speaker 1: applies to England and Wales. As it is written. Abishak
46:49
Speaker 1: gave us. I should say his name is Professor Abishi
46:52
Speaker 1: saha Is. By saying his name correctly, he did a
46:55
Speaker 1: really good Yeah, he did a really good stummary of
46:57
Speaker 1: the legislation at the if HAVE conference we had last month.
47:02
Speaker 1: I have I have my hands out that he passed
47:05
Speaker 1: out right here. But if you want to if you
47:07
Speaker 1: know the act. And since this is your interview, if
47:10
Speaker 1: you maybe want to summarize what's happened and where it's gone,
47:14
Speaker 1: if you want to do that, or I can do
47:16
Speaker 1: that if you don't know.
47:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act was
47:20
Speaker 2: due to come into force this year and uh but
47:23
Speaker 2: Bridget Phillipson decided to stop that six days before I
47:27
Speaker 2: was due to come into force. And she did it
47:30
Speaker 2: not even by announcing it in Parliament. She did it
47:33
Speaker 2: on a kind of memo if you like, going out
47:38
Speaker 2: before Parliament stopped and this this educate this act had
47:43
Speaker 2: been debated to the cows come home. Really, you know,
47:47
Speaker 2: it'd been years in the making by people like Abhishek
47:51
Speaker 2: who you know, have have worked on it. It was.
47:54
Speaker 2: It was had gone through the Commons, gone through the
47:57
Speaker 2: House of Lords, back and forward, back and forward. It
48:00
Speaker 2: had been watered down, you know to you know, the
48:03
Speaker 2: top had been removed then been added back and and yeah.
48:08
Speaker 2: So I had had appropriate amount of time to be
48:12
Speaker 2: looked at Parliament and it got pasted and it became
48:16
Speaker 2: the Higher Education Freedom of Speech Act twenty twenty three, which,
48:19
Speaker 2: as you say, doesn't cover Scotland. It covers England and Wales,
48:23
Speaker 2: and then it was stopped abruptly from actually coming into force.
48:28
Speaker 2: The excuse was that universities have can't handle the administrative
48:34
Speaker 2: building of the Act. You know, the Office of Students
48:38
Speaker 2: for instance, had to develop a complaints process which again
48:42
Speaker 2: they had ample opportunity to develop and bring into force
48:45
Speaker 2: before the Act county force, which they didn't. You know,
48:49
Speaker 2: they're the cost element of this, I believe has been
48:52
Speaker 2: over exaggerated by you know, the Education Secretary. Universities are
48:58
Speaker 2: in a difficult position financially, absolutely, but that's because of
49:02
Speaker 2: their overreliance on foreign students' fees coming in. You know
49:06
Speaker 2: that they have got to the stage now where they
49:10
Speaker 2: got so reliant on that. Now that that's not partically
49:14
Speaker 2: coming in anymore, they're struggling to meet the finances. You
49:19
Speaker 2: know that it was all very much ready to see go,
49:22
Speaker 2: and I don't think they'll actually be watered down in
49:24
Speaker 2: the slightest. I think any concessions given to this Act
49:28
Speaker 2: coming in would be very disappointing.
49:31
Speaker 1: You know.
49:31
Speaker 2: I think the top has to be brought in for
49:33
Speaker 2: absolutely sure, because it's the only mechanism that we have
49:37
Speaker 2: to really enforce and ensure the academic freedom and free
49:40
Speaker 2: speech on campus. It's actually happening. I'm very much in
49:44
Speaker 2: favor of the duties on student unions being brought in
49:46
Speaker 2: as a student myself, for the other student members that
49:49
Speaker 2: we have, that has to again come into force. You know,
49:52
Speaker 2: we have to hold people to account for this. If
49:55
Speaker 2: you say that you are for free speech, you must
49:57
Speaker 2: be able to prove your for free speech. So I
50:01
Speaker 2: you know, we ABAJEK has created a letter which we're
50:06
Speaker 2: all signing at the moment, which hopefully you can link
50:09
Speaker 2: as well, Diane, to the Education Secretary to say that
50:13
Speaker 2: we believe this act should be brought in, should be
50:16
Speaker 2: brought in full, and it shouldn't be delayed any further.
50:19
Speaker 2: And I think at last count we were edging up
50:21
Speaker 2: towards five hundred signatures from a mix of students, academics
50:26
Speaker 2: and you know in free speech campaigners. So I think
50:30
Speaker 2: that's just shows you the strength of the feeling that
50:34
Speaker 2: we need to bring back free speech and academic freedom
50:36
Speaker 2: into universities. I don't think any different to any other
50:41
Speaker 2: person saying we should not need to have an act
50:45
Speaker 2: to do this, but we're in this position now where
50:48
Speaker 2: we need this Act to come in because it's not
50:52
Speaker 2: happening organically. We know it's not happening organically. We've all
50:56
Speaker 2: been fighting for it for years, some absolutely more than
50:59
Speaker 2: I have, for much longer, such as yourself, Diane. You
51:02
Speaker 2: know you've been fighting a fight for much longer than
51:04
Speaker 2: I have. Unfortunately, we do need the Act and it
51:09
Speaker 2: can't be deleted any further. It needs to come into
51:11
Speaker 2: force and we need to hold universities to account much more.
51:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will just add to that. That was
51:18
Speaker 1: a great summary, Thank you. I just want to add
51:20
Speaker 1: to that that as of October twenty twenty four, the
51:24
Speaker 1: last update is that the Free Speech Union has put
51:27
Speaker 1: in an application to bring judicial review to the proceedings
51:30
Speaker 1: of this Act has been granted and a full hearing
51:32
Speaker 1: date is currently scheduled for the twenty third of January
51:36
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. So I will definitely be watching for
51:39
Speaker 1: that when it happens right at the same time as
51:42
Speaker 1: the well, it's three days after the Trump inauguration, so
51:45
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens to the world at that point.
51:47
Speaker 1: There could be a lot going on towards the end
51:50
Speaker 1: of January. There. I just want to mention briefly, the
51:55
Speaker 1: amazing work of your colleague County Shop. She has been
51:59
Speaker 1: quite a through it sen session recently. Do you want
52:02
Speaker 1: to say anything about her briefly?
52:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, Connie is fantastic and you know, and I think
52:07
Speaker 2: she's a credit to herself first and foremost. You know,
52:11
Speaker 2: she's a strong young woman. She's a credit to her university,
52:16
Speaker 2: even if they don't realize it. She's a credit to
52:18
Speaker 2: SAPHAF as well, you know, and she's fighting the good fight.
52:23
Speaker 2: But I think also what I would say is, well, Connie,
52:25
Speaker 2: Connie's done a fantastic job of I mean, she's very articulate,
52:29
Speaker 2: and she speaks very well. She just is a representative
52:32
Speaker 2: of every other saf AF member that we have, you know,
52:35
Speaker 2: who wants to fight for our free speech and academic
52:38
Speaker 2: freedom and you know, and and hold hold a certain
52:42
Speaker 2: viewpoint and not be penalized for that viewpoint. You know,
52:46
Speaker 2: when she's going through a university and she's in her
52:48
Speaker 2: final year and you know, this is this is all
52:51
Speaker 2: very much quite scary as well. You know, you're in
52:53
Speaker 2: your final year where you're looking at dissertation, you're looking
52:57
Speaker 2: at getting your degree and go out into the world,
52:59
Speaker 2: and you know, where the that for other studies or
53:01
Speaker 2: into to the workforce. She shouldn't have to be going
53:04
Speaker 2: through this, you know. And I think I want to reiterate, well,
53:06
Speaker 2: she's done a great job, and you know, she's certainly,
53:11
Speaker 2: I think, fantastic representative for STAPATH as well. I really
53:14
Speaker 2: wish she wasn't having to go through this, you know.
53:17
Speaker 2: And I think the first thing for me is always
53:20
Speaker 2: as a convenior of STAATH, is always to make sure
53:23
Speaker 2: that the students that are members of our society, if
53:26
Speaker 2: you like, our network are supported as fully as possible,
53:30
Speaker 2: you know, And when they want to do these things,
53:33
Speaker 2: I wish they didn't have to. I really, I actually
53:35
Speaker 2: wish I didn't have to do this either. I you know,
53:38
Speaker 2: I think most of us wish we didn't have to
53:40
Speaker 2: do these things. But the reality is if I don't
53:43
Speaker 2: fight for it, then it means generation is to come
53:47
Speaker 2: under me won't be able to fight for it either,
53:49
Speaker 2: you know. And I think I think whilst a criticism
53:52
Speaker 2: we always get is that it's older people fighting for
53:55
Speaker 2: free speech, and I don't class myself as being particularly old. Yeah,
54:00
Speaker 2: so what it's me fighting? If I don't fight for it,
54:03
Speaker 2: now it means that people coming down the eighteen year
54:06
Speaker 2: olds of Connie's who are you know, under twenty, They're
54:10
Speaker 2: going to have to fight equally hard again, you know.
54:13
Speaker 2: So I think taking a stand now, and that's what
54:15
Speaker 2: I will say, kind of almost to finishes. Please be brave,
54:19
Speaker 2: you know, Academics, please be brave, Students, please be brave,
54:23
Speaker 2: Come and speak to We've got really exciting things planned
54:27
Speaker 2: for next year. There's strength and numbers. You know. We're
54:31
Speaker 2: here to support each other. It's not about doing it alone.
54:34
Speaker 2: You know. Connie has the support of SAFA, she's got
54:37
Speaker 2: the support of Free Speech Union behind her, you know,
54:41
Speaker 2: and many many others. I do wish she didn't have
54:45
Speaker 2: to do this. I wish that her, you know, the
54:47
Speaker 2: LSR Radio would have just let her have her free expression.
54:53
Speaker 2: It's not bringing anybody into distribute at all. If anything,
54:57
Speaker 2: if they supported her, they would have been a more
55:00
Speaker 2: attractive to students who believe in free speech and want
55:03
Speaker 2: to go, you know and study at their university. Yeah.
55:06
Speaker 2: So I would just say, be brave, stand up, show
55:10
Speaker 2: other people that you're there, you know, and and by
55:14
Speaker 2: doing that we will we will gradually hopefully turn the
55:17
Speaker 2: tide in our universities and higher education.
55:21
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that UK colum viewers, members of
55:25
Speaker 1: the public, or even other academics can do to help
55:28
Speaker 1: support you? Because I want to do what I can.
55:30
Speaker 1: But if people see this and feel inspired to do something,
55:33
Speaker 1: what would you like them to do?
55:35
Speaker 2: Just start talking about it more. Just literally start talking
55:38
Speaker 2: about it more. Share it, Share it wide, you know,
55:41
Speaker 2: share it with other people. If you're if you're seeing
55:43
Speaker 2: this on X or whatever, share it with other people,
55:47
Speaker 2: you know, let them know that there is an issue
55:50
Speaker 2: on in universities on campus, you know that. I think
55:53
Speaker 2: one of the things I would say is that students
55:55
Speaker 2: always get a bad rap. You know, we're all the
55:58
Speaker 2: kind of stuff around, you know, the war for instance,
56:01
Speaker 2: you know, Israel, Gaza, Israel, Palestine and conflict. Students are
56:06
Speaker 2: seen as these shouty, you know, focal difficult people. Those
56:10
Speaker 2: are just a minority of students. Those are the very
56:13
Speaker 2: vocal ones. And what I would say is that the
56:15
Speaker 2: fast majority of students are unfortunately self censoring, you know,
56:18
Speaker 2: at the moment, because they may be hold a different
56:20
Speaker 2: opinion to other students. So don't be put off and
56:24
Speaker 2: don't think that every single student's this shouty, you know,
56:27
Speaker 2: argumentative camping out on university nice lowans. For instances, that's
56:32
Speaker 2: not the case. The fast majority of us are just
56:35
Speaker 2: trying to get our degrees finished, are just trying to
56:38
Speaker 2: get a good grade, are trying to have a good
56:40
Speaker 2: time at university and make friends and have those friends,
56:43
Speaker 2: you know, hopefully for life. But more than importantly than that,
56:47
Speaker 2: we be are to learn the subject that we've paid
56:50
Speaker 2: money to go and learn. So don't don't think that
56:53
Speaker 2: all students are the same. We're very much not. We're
56:55
Speaker 2: very much diverse in our thoughts and yet and just
56:59
Speaker 2: support as much as you can by just being vocal
57:02
Speaker 2: and your support. That's all we can ask. You know,
57:04
Speaker 2: that's time to and then when you see us doing
57:07
Speaker 2: different events, come along.
57:09
Speaker 1: You know.
57:09
Speaker 2: We're open to everybody. You know, we want to have
57:12
Speaker 2: that good debate and discussion and have everybody go away
57:16
Speaker 2: thinking something, you know, just just thinking, oh right, okay,
57:20
Speaker 2: that's really interesting. That might not change my mind completely,
57:23
Speaker 2: but I'm going to have a think about it now.
57:25
Speaker 2: And I think that's what university is all about at
57:27
Speaker 2: the end of the day.
57:29
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that true diversity, not the diversity that the
57:32
Speaker 1: EDI departments are trying to force on us, but true
57:35
Speaker 1: diversity at university, that's the real thing that we need
57:38
Speaker 1: to continue to promote that you and I experienced when
57:41
Speaker 1: we were eighteen, and I really want those days to
57:44
Speaker 1: come back. Thank you so much for your time today, Heather.
57:47
Speaker 1: It's been really great to speak with you about this,
57:50
Speaker 1: and I just want to say that I think the
57:52
Speaker 1: student a FAFT group is fabulous and you guys are
57:54
Speaker 1: amazing and brave, and I'm so proud of what you're
57:57
Speaker 1: doing and I will continue to support you in any
58:00
Speaker 1: way possible. Is there any final thing that you would
58:03
Speaker 1: like to add before we conclude.
58:05
Speaker 2: No, just to say thank you, Diane. It's been a
58:07
Speaker 2: pleasure to speak to you, and I'm really heartened. I
58:11
Speaker 2: will say, as forty three year old women that we
58:15
Speaker 2: have a mixture of ages and but I'm also very
58:18
Speaker 2: heart in the amount of young people that are coming
58:20
Speaker 2: forward and want to join up. So I don't think
58:23
Speaker 2: all is lost in universities. I think we've got a
58:26
Speaker 2: real good mix of people coming forward and starting to
58:29
Speaker 2: speak up, and I think it can only get better.
58:33
Speaker 2: So I'm very hopeful. Whilst it might have sounded like
58:36
Speaker 2: maybe we went as hopeful sometimes on our out of
58:38
Speaker 2: view here. Actually I'm extremely positive about where we can go.
58:43
Speaker 1: Me too. We just have to keep going and that
58:45
Speaker 1: stop until we get there again. Thank you for your time.
58:48
Speaker 1: It's been lovely to have you as a guest here
58:50
Speaker 1: on UK column and I will see you in my
58:54
Speaker 1: continued activism in your direction over on X from here
58:58
Speaker 1: on APP. Thank you again. Five