Latest / Mental Health and the Mission of the Church / The Role of Medication in Mental Wellness

Transcript

The Role of Medication in Mental Wellness · Mental Health and the Mission of the Church

0:00
SPEAKER_01: If I look back at all the panic attacks I've had, they were at a restaurant, they were at someone's house, some situation where I felt like people needed me to be normal and I couldn't be normal and I didn't feel comfortable saying, I just honestly, y'all, I just need to go to sleep right now.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: I can't stay at this social gathering.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: And it would send me over the edge to where physiologically, and this is at least the way it's been described to me, I know Chip, you helped me with this language, I've already got a highly activated threat detection center.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: My body would go into this state where it was like a lion is in the room, and I would and I'd start sweating.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: This is Pastor Chris Russo, a friend of Pastor Chip Jets, who's dealt with a significant amount of mental health challenges, mostly pertaining to panic attacks, anxiety, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: He's also called to be a pastor of a church.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: In this episode, you'll hear how decades of struggle for Chris have turned into patiently waiting on and trusting in the Lord.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Pastor Chris isn't completely on the other side of his struggles, but he's learned to grow and get healthier while pastoring others.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: A big factor that's allowed for this was his being a part of church families that set out to pastor their pastors as they ventured to pastor their church.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: Tell them this is not working.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: The side effects are horrible.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: Take some assertiveness in your treatment.
1:16
SPEAKER_03: Now they might be offended with the way I'm saying it, but I don't think they're offended with the thought behind it.
1:21
SPEAKER_03: They want to help you, and they can't help you if you're not honest with them.
1:24
SPEAKER_03: And yet at the same time, again, not to be critical, but you've got to be honest and say, you know, I've been honest six weeks and three months.
1:31
SPEAKER_03: I don't know that I can tell a difference.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Mental Health and the Mission of the Church during this mental health awareness month of May.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: And here's another guest that is trying to bridge deeper connections between the church and the mental health professional community.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: He's a pastor, and his wife is a therapist.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, it's Pastor Chris Russo with Joey Svenson and then our main guy, Pastor Chip Judd.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: We're here with three friends.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: It's mental health and mission of the church, Pastor Chip Judd's podcast.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: Chip, you're up to good work, man, trying to bring two communities together.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: And you're you've got in this little digital space two younger pastors who it's a good, good thing that our environments, or at least we were in environments who kind of had a good placement of mental health and mission of the church.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Chris and I both being pastors and having our fair share of challenges when it comes to our mental health.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: And Chip, you've been instrumental in both of our lives, man.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of neat little setup, the three of us being here together.
2:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm honored, man.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: But Chris, did you notice he had to get that age thing in there?
2:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean just let it end.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: He always does that.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm not kidding.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: Every conversation we ever do, he always wants to make sure everybody knows he's old, I'm young.
2:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, you know what's interesting is the how you take that, because I actually didn't realize that I'd do that all the time, but now that I'm realizing it, and it's I'm trying to show respect, and you're taking it the opposite everywhere.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: I'm just playing, man.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: I don't care.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: I like it.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: Like listen, I'm just glad I'm just glad you like me.
3:23
SPEAKER_03: I don't care.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: Chip, I I am gonna want to fit this question in at some point, and you can tell me if if this would be uh a good time as as Chris kind of unpacks his story and lets listeners know who he is.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: But I I've always enjoyed hearing you give an assessment on how much of my issues you feel were more genetics and how much you felt were more environmental.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: And I I I'd rather focus more of our discussion on Chris, but I'm interested because because I know Chris and him and I are friends, I'm curious what your take is on that too.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: But I don't know where you guys think we should start, just on Chris's background and uh Well, let's start, let's start right there for a minute, because because sooner or later that's gonna come up in Chris's story.
4:15
SPEAKER_03: Because uh you know, there's lots of ways to say it, but physiological issues, meaning when there's some part of the body and the brain is a part of the body, but a physiological issue, chemical imbalances and all that kind of thing, can't be fixed by talk therapy.
4:33
SPEAKER_03: You can't talk away a physiological issue.
4:37
SPEAKER_03: And uh honestly, it took me decades to figure that out as a Christian spirit-filled and kind of on the charismania side of things.
4:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, for me, Joey, I would say knowing you and having walked with you for gosh, a decade and a half now, probably pretty close, and Chris too, really, the percentage of, you know, some would say nature, nurture, you know, uh genetics and environment kind of thing.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: I would say yours is so little environment and genetics.
5:04
SPEAKER_03: I mean environment and uh the nurture side.
5:07
SPEAKER_03: You know, as I've watched it play, as we've tried what we did, and you know, I use my little bag of tricks, you know, cognitive therapy and all that stuff.
5:15
SPEAKER_03: And you would you would make a certain amount of progress, you know.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't until they got your medication really dialed in that I mean, I have never seen you on as sustained a period doing as well as you are.
5:30
SPEAKER_03: I've never seen you in the whole decade and a half I've known you.
5:34
SPEAKER_03: And there's there's no way to take credit for it.
5:36
SPEAKER_03: I didn't like do some magic counseling session and you had a breakthrough.
5:40
SPEAKER_03: The bottom line is you got to an awful place and got a team of doctors that finally came up with a forgive me for the term cocktail, but they finally came up with a mixture of drugs that just hit the sweet spot.
5:53
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, dude, you're just not even the same guy.
5:56
SPEAKER_03: And it's awesome.
5:57
SPEAKER_03: It's awesome to watch.
5:59
SPEAKER_03: And Chris, you know, you would say the same thing about medication, right?
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, big time.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: It for so I started talk therapy when I was um in Columbia, you know, overseeing the uh Seacoast Columbia campus.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: And um, I would go to, I can't remember how many times I went to like a general practitioner, and not to throw them under the bus or anything, but I would get like a you know, kind of a random medication thrown at me, and I would try it, and I was really starting to believe that medication couldn't help me at all, which I was really initially really kind of heartbroken by because the therapy was helpful, but the level of anxiety was still an eight to a 10.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: And until I started seeing a psychiatrist that I still see to this day quarterly, and he actually started saying, all right, like talking about it almost like a soundboard, all right.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna crank these up and see what happens.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And if that doesn't work, we're gonna try something else.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: That until I started getting that type of focused, specific attention, it just wasn't moving the needle.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: How common is that, Chip, for people just not even to respond to medication?
7:11
SPEAKER_02: Because when I was coming out of my mental health crisis, I heard I heard people say stuff like, Man, that's really cool that you respond to medication in general.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking, oh wow, some people don't respond to medication.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: Like Chris, when you said that, I'm thinking to myself, that would be just heart shattering.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, uh this thing that everybody says can be so helpful and just realign stuff, I guess it doesn't work for me.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: That'd be the worst.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, I uh just to chime in there, I remember so I was diagnosed with OCD when I was 27, and I had been experiencing experiencing the symptoms for some time up until then.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: But I remember the doctor, uh, the psychiatrist that that told me that medication could help me.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And that and I I like shed it, I shed a tear when he said that.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: I remember I got emotional because I didn't believe that I was helpful, you know.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: And for there's a lot I could say about what had discouraged me up to that point, but I won't.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: But it was just like, wow, so there actually is some change that could happen.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Like that was like you know, cold water to a thirsty soul.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: And then when I when I got thrown, I think it was a Lexapro prescrip prescription at first, and it was kind of like, and I didn't respond.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And then to and it and it was my own fault.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: I didn't stick with it at that point.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was just like, well, I guess the medication thing is off the table.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I would go see a general practitioner here and there, and again, just get thrown something.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd tell them what I had tried before and they'd try Zoloft, and and and it still wasn't helping.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: So I I was starting to actually think there was nothing in the medication community that could even touch what I was experiencing.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
8:59
SPEAKER_03: Um, a little bit tacky way to say it.
9:02
SPEAKER_03: So any mental health professional out there, forgive me.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: But to address you know that issue there, what I would tell, like, let's say either of you were coming to me for counseling, and we we got to the point, you know, after, you know, it takes you a little while to figure some of this stuff out, but we got to a point where I was fairly confident it was a physiological, chemical, brain issue.
9:24
SPEAKER_03: Uh what I would say is uh, you know, you're gonna need to go to a psychiatrist.
9:28
SPEAKER_03: Don't go to your family doctor.
9:30
SPEAKER_03: They're great and they're they they're they're wonderful, but this is not what they live in week in and week out.
9:36
SPEAKER_03: Go, you're gonna have to get to a psychiatrist.
9:39
SPEAKER_03: And but this is the tacky part.
9:41
SPEAKER_03: Here's what I'd say to them, to you.
9:43
SPEAKER_03: I'd say, okay, when you go, remember something.
9:47
SPEAKER_03: You're paying him or her, they're not paying you, they work for you.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: So here's the deal: don't be afraid to say, this medication's not helping me.
9:58
SPEAKER_03: In other words, the only the only feedback they have on how it how it's working is what you tell them.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: So don't be afraid to tell them this is not working, or the side effects are horrible, or whatever.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: Take some uh, what do you call it, assertiveness in your treatment.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: And um now they might be offended with the way I'm saying it, but I don't think they're offended with the the thought behind it.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: They want to help you, and they can't help you if you're not honest with them, and yet at the same time, again, not to be critical, they have, like all of us, we have our sort of pet remedies and they're thinking cost and side effects and all that kind of thing.
10:39
SPEAKER_03: But you've got to be honest and say, you know, I've been honest six weeks and uh you know, eight weeks, three months, I don't know that I can tell the difference, or the difference is so small it's not worth the side effects.
10:54
SPEAKER_03: And uh so that's kind of how I would put it.
10:57
SPEAKER_03: You know, when I was thinking, Joey, and you you push it other direction if you want, but uh Chris, I wanted to maybe start at the beginning.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: And I mean as young as you can go.
11:06
SPEAKER_03: Here's what I because I want us to roll into, because we've jumped in here and people probably don't even know what you know what your situation is.
11:13
SPEAKER_03: When was the first time in your life that you would have had this thought?
11:18
SPEAKER_03: What what's going on with me that doesn't seem like a a reaction I should have or a thought I should have?
11:24
SPEAKER_03: Like was the first time it occurred to you that there might be something wrong?
11:29
SPEAKER_01: It's a really good question.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because in retrospect, I can look at things that I wish I had thought something is is wrong, but it was honestly, I want to say about when I probably about when I got married.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: So I became a Christian when I was 18, and that's when I stopped.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't, I don't know if people even, and I don't know if this is like just a like a timing thing.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't even I I didn't even know the word anxiety in high school.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: And it because people just didn't talk, at least not in my circles.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in Connecticut and people just didn't talk about mental health, and I think I was using so many unhealthy coping mechanisms, pornography, drugs, just so many different things to not feel anything that I wasn't even aware that I had uh you know a mental health struggle.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I was so isolated once I became a Christian that I just thought my, even though it wasn't now looking back on it, it my Christian experience was not normal.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: OCD was definitely prevalent, and I can see that looking back on it.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: I just assumed everything was spiritual warfare.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: I just assumed that I must be having what was a normal Christian experience because not having grown up Christian, all I had was basically me and my Bible and the handful of Christians that were around me that I wasn't really opening up to.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: So I just thought this is just a lot harder.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Being a Christian honestly kind of sucks.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a lot harder than not being a Christian.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Like I was just forming all these assumptions without even realizing it and not even knowing that I had a mental health issue.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: But it was once Abby and I started, we started dating in 2003.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: But I would say coming around once we finally were in the same house together in uh in 2007, that and I remember having my first panic attack that I that I can recall, where I actually like left our apartment in Mount Pleasant and drove out to Isle of Palms because I didn't know what to do with myself.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Um that I that I started, and Abby started giving me feedback, like I don't know if I can live like this.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know if this this like this isn't w working, like this is pulling you away from us.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: That I started realizing I've I've got a real problem that isn't being fixed.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: Right.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: You use two terms, OCD and panic attack.
14:36
SPEAKER_03: From your perspective, tell what those are.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I would say, you know, the OCD, so obsessive-compulsive disorder.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm not through it all the way, so I'm not gonna try to pretend like I'm talking as though it were already done.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: What'll happen is, you know, um, best way I can describe it is by giving you an example.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm driving, uh, I'm driving down the street already with a certain level of anxiety, but that maybe one that I've just gotten used to and not really paying that much attention to.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: But then um I hit a I look down to you know, check the radio or something like that, and I hit a bump on the road, or I look down and then I look up and I see that there was a guy on the road that I didn't notice.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm driving, and rationally speaking, I know there's no way I could have hit that guy.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: I know I would have felt it, I would have seen it, I would have pulled over, but there's something in my head that says, What if you hit that guy?
15:35
SPEAKER_01: What if you're fleeing the scene of an accident?
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Chris, that could mean the loss of everything.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: Somebody, what if somebody notices?
15:45
SPEAKER_01: What if, what if, are you really sure?
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Are you positive?
15:48
SPEAKER_01: I know you're pretty sure, but you see you, but are you positive you didn't hit that guy?
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I should go back and check.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: So that there, then the compulsion comes in.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: Then I'm weighing the cost in my head.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: And it depends on how well I'm doing that day, which is a whole separate conversation.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I can say, I didn't hit that guy.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: There's no possible way.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: This is a compulsion.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: I need to just keep driving and say no to the compulsion.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: If I'm if I'm tired, if I'm super anxious, if I've already said, if I've already been having a rough day and have already said no to a number of compulsions, uh then part of me thinks, you know what?
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I know this is gonna hammer me.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: That this nagging thought that I might have hit that guy is gonna nail me for the rest of the day, the rest of the night.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: I might think about it for two weeks after this.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm driving back.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Then I drive back, I look, obey the compulsion.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: So there's the obsessive, compulsive.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: I've been obsessing about whether or not I hit the guy.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go with the compulsion because I think I'm gonna feel better.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: And then I end up feeling like a massive loser because I went back, I knew I didn't hit the guy, and now then the thought comes in, dude, you are crazy.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: You are out of your mind.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: You thought you hit a guy, you loser.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Why, like, you're a pastor.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, why should anybody ever trust you?
17:10
SPEAKER_01: You thought you hit somebody.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, who drives back?
17:13
SPEAKER_01: That is not normal.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: What is the mat what is the matter with you?
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh that would be that that would be one way it would it would play out.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: And then a pay and then a panic attack to the best of my ability.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: So there was one particular counselor because I knew I was having them, but honestly, for I mean, goodness gracious, and some of it I fault, I don't want to, I don't want to say I fault the church for, but dude, that's what this is about.
17:36
SPEAKER_03: Hey, that's what this is about.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: I want you to say what you need to say.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: Um we want to get this stuff out on the table.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: So there were times that it was like, Chris, don't you know Philippians 4, 6, and 7?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, don't be anxious, cat pray.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Don't you know 1 Peter 5, 7, cast all your anxiety?
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Or hey, haven't you been to cleansing stream?
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Do you just need to get that cast out of you?
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Like say no to the spirit, you know, get it get it cast out of you, kind of thing.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: I thought the panic attacks were demonic.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: I thought, and you know, I I didn't know what they were.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what was happening to me.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: I didn't even know they were somewhat common, as common as I've now come to realize that that they are with people.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: I I just didn't know the language.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: And then I certainly didn't know what was specific to mine.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: What I started when I really broke it down with one particular counselor, what I realized for mine, to the best of my ability, and again, I don't have this all figured out, but for me, when I was in a social situation where I felt trapped, where I thought that people needed a 10 for me, from me, or an eight to a 10, like they wanted full Chris, you know, they they wanted me to be my normal, happy, go-lucky self.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I only had a two to give them.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I was tired, I had a headache, but I felt trapped.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: I felt like there was no way I couldn't just leave without it being socially awkward, so I had to perform.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I just, and this is there's probably a lot of strings to pull at here that would send that would send me over.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: If I look back at all the panic attacks I've had, they were at a restaurant, they were at someone's house, some situation where I felt like people needed me to be normal, and I couldn't be normal, and I didn't feel comfortable saying, I just honestly, y'all, I just need to go to sleep right now.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't stay at this social gathering.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: And I and it would send me over the edge to where physiologically, and this is at least the way it's been described to me, I know Chip, you helped me with this language, I've already got a highly activated threat detection center.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and my brain would go, my body would go into this state where it was like a lion is in the room, and I would, and I'd start sweating.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: One time I almost passed out.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: If I had eaten food, it would feel like it was sitting high up in my throat.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: There were times that I would actually make myself throw up just to make the the food, the feeling of that food being high up in my throat to just go away.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Um and the old and and before the medication, the only thing that would really fix a panic attack outside of occasionally, I would feel out of nowhere God's supernatural presence.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And it was just like it was like Jesus.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: For me, it was like him being on the Sea of Galilee saying, just stop.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And he just rebuked it and it just went away.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: That happens sometimes.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: The only other the only physical thing I knew to do that would make it go away was sleep, and I would wake up and it would be gone.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:32
SPEAKER_03: Just to play with the terms for anybody that that is trying to figure some of this out for them or a loved one, you know, you got obsessive compulsive disorder.
20:41
SPEAKER_03: So obsessive again, lines blur a little bit, but obsessive is the thoughts.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: And and you described it beautifully, Chris, and Joey, I'm sure you caught it, that your thoughts became extraordinarily negative and obsessive.
20:56
SPEAKER_03: They built on each other and they just spiraled to you know, just a level that was just couldn't be real, just couldn't be.
21:05
SPEAKER_03: So that's the obsessive part of obsessive compulsive disorder.
21:09
SPEAKER_03: And then the behavior, turn around and go back and check, is so obsessive is the thoughts, compulsion is some behavior, like you know, it it's kind of a Hollywood sort of thing, you know, you wash your hands three times, or you you know, you you do the lock three times, that kind of thing.
21:25
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the compulsion that follows the obsessive thought.
21:30
SPEAKER_03: And and really, really, really important, it's all rooted in fear.
21:36
SPEAKER_03: And you know, anxiety and fear, I mean, I don't know, I'd say they're exact the same thing, but I mean, come on, they're they're kissing cousins for sure.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: And and and fear is at the root of it.
21:49
SPEAKER_03: And fear, again, you know, you talked about the threat and detention center, fear's anchored in a certain part of the brain.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: When that part of the brain revs too hot, engages too quickly, uh, all kinds of things.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: Chris, I bet you you can relate to this one.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: I can almost bet money.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: So both of us, you and I are both younger fathers.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: When your boys were babies, did you ever have like this thought and you thought it was the Holy Spirit saying, go in there and check on uh one of your sons?
22:21
SPEAKER_02: And you're thinking to yourself, My son is fine.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: I've got to get to sleep.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: My my little baby boy is totally fine.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: We just put him to bed.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but if you don't check right now, you never know, and you and you'll always have regrets.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: You've got to get up right now to make sure your child's breathing.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: Like I've had those situations as a dad, and it's like I can't.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: Can either lay here in bed and stay awake the whole time fighting this compulsiveness, or I can just get up and check and then come back.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: Have you had stuff like that with your kids?
22:52
SPEAKER_01: So my deal still to this day, and gosh, we are getting real on this podcast.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: So for me, my still to this day, when I go to bed, I look uh I try to I try to hide it from the family because I don't want them to see, but I'll look too long at the front and back door locks.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Even though I know they're locked, in my mind, I but when I go up the stairs, the thought of going up the stairs and somebody breaking in during the night because I didn't close the door, I'll look at it just too when I say too long, just like past the point of just checking it.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: I'll, you know, I'm not standing there for 20 minutes, but I'm like looking at it and just needing to settle in my mind.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: But and I'll sometimes I'll even say it the front door is locked, the back door is locked.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And I know, and that that's just another way that it'll manifest.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: The thought and and and it and the thought of just going upstairs without thoroughly checking, I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna think about it when I'm in bed.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So which price am I?
23:58
SPEAKER_01: And especially at that point I'm tired, and so it's a it's harder for me to say no to the uh to the compulsion.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: Uh just to just to give uh an interesting counterbalance to this, what do you do for a living, Chris?
24:11
SPEAKER_01: I am the lead pastor of Riverland Church.
24:15
SPEAKER_03: So you're around people all the time.
24:17
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: You get up in front of people, a group of people, like naked on stage, just you and a microphone and your Bible, not naked, but I mean exposed, exposed.
24:28
SPEAKER_03: In other words, you do something that most of that you do something that most people are scared to death of.
24:37
SPEAKER_03: And you do it every week.
24:39
SPEAKER_03: Every week.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: So we're not, you understand what I'm trying to do here?
24:42
SPEAKER_03: We're not talking about somebody who's who's paralyzed by fear.
24:46
SPEAKER_03: We're talking about a very specific and yet life-disturbing um definitely would fall within the category of a mental illness, meaning any illness is some part of the body not performing properly, not fulfilling its function.
25:02
SPEAKER_03: And there's a part of your body, and that's so important to Christians, for Christians to get wrap their head around.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: There's a part of your body that's not functioning properly.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: And yet there's other times when you get up and do things that are profoundly brave.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: I just I just kind of wanted people to feel that.
25:19
SPEAKER_03: Like, we're not talking about a guy who's who's who's huddled up in his house and can't get out.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: You're out there in public, man.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: You're no, it's funny because my Abby will say that I don't worry about, and she's a professional counselor, so this is more like an inside joke between the two between the two of us.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: But she said before that I don't worry about real things.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: So I have no problem cliff jumping or doing something that, you know, um, you know, I I can get on crazy roller coasters, I can do like I, you know, a lot of times I don't worry about the finances.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: I'll, you know, trust that God's gonna come through in some crazy way.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: But it's these specific areas, these little things that honestly I get embarrassed to talk about because it in some ways I can be really brave and really courageous.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: I can go on adventures, I'm taking my son to Africa to the bush of the bush in June.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I can do things that I know that terrify some people, but then I have a trouble with the locks at night, you know.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: There's territory that we can get into that we couldn't get into had like the if you guys weren't as close, for instance.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, this isn't one of this isn't a question that you would just ask someone who's opening up about mental health stuff, but as someone who knows Chris well, Chip, when would like the the parallel that you made as far I like I thought that was so interesting?
26:48
SPEAKER_02: Like Chris is actually in a job and doing things that a lot of people would be petrified to do.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: Chip, as Chris's friend, how do you balance the tension of is there ever a time where you say, Chris, maybe maybe you don't need to be doing some of these lines of work because of your struggles, or because we're believers, do you see clearly the calling that God has on Chris's life as a pastor and a teacher and the sorts of giftings that you that he's given him to where like, no, the calling is clear, the obstacles are clear, and so that this is your mission is to get you know, all of us is to get better with our mental health and to be used more by God.
27:37
SPEAKER_02: But is there ever a time where you just say, Chris, this is a tough field for for you to be in?
27:43
SPEAKER_03: No, I don't think so.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: And Chris, you can tell me if there it seems like there might have been a time when we talked about some of your activities needed to be managed a little better or something, I can't remember.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: But um his like we were just talking about a second ago, his his challenges didn't show up in the performance of his job, you know, for lack of a better word.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: And he clearly has, you know, an anointing, a calling, the touch of God on his life to do what he does.
28:10
SPEAKER_03: And and personally, and that's why we've switched over to mental health and the mission of the church is our focus.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: Clearly, I think his journey is part of what gives him credibility and part of what gives him uh exactly, you know, gives him uh a platform to uh communicate grace and truth.
28:30
SPEAKER_03: Uh he's a great communicator of truth, but I think I'm sure partly because of his own struggles, he's a better communicator of grace than he might have been.
28:40
SPEAKER_03: And and you've got to have equal amounts of those two, grace and truth.
28:44
SPEAKER_03: So, no, it never occurred to me.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: Now, if if he was having panic attacks in the pulpit speaking, we'd probably have had to revisit that.
28:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh but uh but never.
28:55
SPEAKER_03: That was just never the issue.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I a hundred percent uh like it's and and it's it's something to marvel at too when you think of Chris's calling and then and and I mean I'm I I can say the same thing about myself, my calling and then the challenges that I have, both of them seem so clear, and it always reminds me of 2 Corinthians 12, 9.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: Like I would I would venture to guess that if Chris was not open about his struggles, like I'm kind of speaking for God here, but it would be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not part of the deal.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: The deal is that you are aware of your weaknesses and you're aware of your callings.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: I want you to wear both of these things proudly so that so that God can see me working through you.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: But I I do think that if Chris wasn't open with his struggles, I don't think God's power would rest on him as mightily in ministry.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: That would just be my guess when you're looking at scripture.
30:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:06
SPEAKER_03: Let me say it here because I may forget to say it another place.
30:09
SPEAKER_03: Just so everybody knows, all three people you're looking at have had mental health struggles.
30:14
SPEAKER_03: All three of us.
30:15
SPEAKER_03: Now, makes an important distinction.
30:18
SPEAKER_03: Mine was situational and I did it to myself.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: Mine was a classic adrenaline burnout, but I had panic attacks.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: I I would probably have to say briefly obsessive thoughts.
30:33
SPEAKER_03: Uh and what I mean by that is weeks, if even.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: Um but what I had done was I had abused my body, and part of my body is my brain, and I had, I don't know if this is the exact best way to say it, so some mental health professional correct me, reach out and correct me, but I believe that my sustained chronic adrenaline uh engagement had depleted my serotonin levels, and my brain began to act like a person with hereditary anxiety slash OCD slash whatever.
31:12
SPEAKER_03: Although I don't know that I ever hit the OCD stuff.
31:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm not organized to remember remember to do the same thing, I don't think.
31:19
SPEAKER_03: But uh I'm not smart enough.
31:21
SPEAKER_03: But um, but I experienced very similar the difference, and this is important, you know, go back to Joey's original question at the beginning of the talk.
31:29
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't hereditary, it wasn't a genetic thing.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: I went on medication and made some life adjustments.
31:36
SPEAKER_03: And for all intents and purposes, I uh I don't know, Joey, you might remember, but it was probably a few years before I would say I was back to normal.
31:45
SPEAKER_03: But I for all intents and purposes, it was sooner than that.
31:49
SPEAKER_03: But I know from inside I wasn't back to normal for several years.
31:53
SPEAKER_03: Kind of what Chris was talking about when he knows he's going into certain kind of situations.
31:57
SPEAKER_03: I could feel my anxiety at a level I'd never felt it before in my life.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: And what would happen is I'd feel that, and then the fear would come, okay, what if it overruns the banks of the river while you're in this situation?
32:09
SPEAKER_03: Because it's a horrible feeling.
32:10
SPEAKER_03: And I know there's people that are going to listen to this that deal with this stuff and over over and under-spiritualizing.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: You know, either one of you, Chris, I mean, that's kind of what you got trapped in.
32:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, you just, you know, you just need to this verse and this verse and whatever.
32:24
SPEAKER_03: And I would call that over-spiritualizing.
32:26
SPEAKER_03: And then under-spiritualizing is not bringing your spirituality, your journey with God into it at all.
32:32
SPEAKER_03: But my deal is let's combine the two and let's use medication.
32:36
SPEAKER_03: Nobody will give you a hard time if you take blood pressure medicine.
32:39
SPEAKER_03: And I think we're making progress, but there's still pockets of the church that fight the psychology side, the psychiatrist side, the medicine side.
32:48
SPEAKER_03: Joey, you ran into a bunch of that, didn't you?
32:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I mean, but I I want to slow down and and uh highlight just how crippling, though, what Chris actually said and what I actually experience is it wasn't just a matter of religious circles saying point to, you know, pointing to this verse or that verse.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: Chris actually said, and I and I and I can say this alongside him, we thought it was our fault that we were struggling in our mental health because of spiritual deficiencies.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: Like we thought that we were doing something shorthanded in our faith and our faith practices, and that's what was causing this.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: And uh again, for me, I'm glad that I can say that I can't really point to specific people who got that hardwired into me.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: It was just the culture that I was being brought up in, the things that I was reading, the people that I was being taught by who had great intentions.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: But man, that's that can be very crippling when you think, hey, the reason I'm here in these dark places are because of things I'm doing wrong spiritually.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: And in reality, it has nothing to do with that.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: And but it's that it's that cycle because then I want to try to be better and I want to try to live better and not sin at all, because then that'll just throw the whole thing up into uh you know disarray.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: And it's so anytime I mess up, it just fuels that narrative of I guess I'm doing something wrong.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: And I I do Chris, are you familiar with scrupulosity, the terminology?
34:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, falls, and I'm hearing more and more about that.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: I think I sent you uh Chip.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: There's a professional football player in the NFL who just came out about having scrupulosity in the Christian context of fear and worry and constant repeating.
34:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Chris, you got anything you want to add to what Joey just said?
34:47
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I think it's just you know what you're talking about as far as blending the two.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's one of those things where a lot of times when I talk to God, um, I've tried, especially recently, to be very open to him, especially um as to any direction he may want to lead.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm gonna butcher the quote, but C.S.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Lewis said something like, Some of our questions are like asking God, is yellow a circle or a square, or how many hours are in a mile?
35:15
SPEAKER_01: And I and I always think about that because I'm like, I may be asking right now, like I may be looking through a lens where I'm essentially asking, is yellow a circle or a square?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Like my thinking may be so jacked up in an area that I'm not even asking a question that makes sense.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: And and I I have to continually remind myself of that because I'm like, okay, God, I don't know what to ask you.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: I need you to meet me where I'm at if this is physical.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: If there's a way that I'm not participating with you right now, then I'm open.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: I just need to, I need you to I need to know that you can meet me where I'm at and lead me in ways I have not known because something's not working.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, where I have to be just like that childlike in my in my approach.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, almost like I mean, I imagine how you would have to be if you were physically blind or something like that, where you're just like, I don't even know what the problem is.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: So the the hard part is too, is I know there's some part of me that clings to OCD.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: And that's the hard part because I know that, and it, you know, you talked about going as early as I possibly could.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: When I was nine, and this is my best guess as to when this high protect, like when this hypervigilance at least started in me.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: When I was nine, my mom uh passed away from cancer.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: But because everyone was being so upbeat around my brother Greg and I, nobody told us that she was dying.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: And they were trying to do what was right by us.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: But I basically came home on an average school day thinking she was just gonna get through it because she would give me a thumbs up and everybody was saying she was gonna beat it.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Nobody told us what was really going on.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I knew she had cancer, I knew she had lost her hair, but I mean, I thought she was gonna beat it.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: I came home one day with uh wanting to show her, I was nine years old, wanting to show her how I had done well on a paper, and she was breathing funny.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: So I called my dad to come home, and he walked out of her room and said, Chris, mom's dead.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, the best I can figure is that day some things happened in my nine-year-old soul that got solidified through some rejection and stuff in high school.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: But that was that the world can take whatever it wants from you whenever it wants to, without any warning at any given time.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: So do not be do not be open, not to people, not to God, not to anyone.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: Do not be open, do not be overly attached, be hyper-vigilant in all cases at all times, or you will be burned and shot through the chest the same way you were that day.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And and now, if I can change metaphors, if that was winter and I had and I and I tried to put on the heaviest winter coat I could because of how cold it was, now, and obviously this is still something that I'm learning.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Now that I live in summer and it's I've got people around me that love me, I live in a safe environment, I'm provided for, I'm well cared for.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Part of me still doesn't want to take the winter coat off.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: And and that's a that's a really hard thing.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Like if you say the words to me, Chris, just let go, man.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: Just relax.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Like just just chill out, like everything's fine.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: You're telling you're asking me to do something that feels like, that feels like, I, even though I know you're right, that feels like walking on a tightrope over hungry alligators, is how that is how that feels.
38:54
SPEAKER_03: I mean, Chris, in a in a beautiful way, you're highlighting exactly why, exactly why we're doing this and why we chose to do this.
39:01
SPEAKER_03: People just don't understand how if you can choose it, you can change it.
39:06
SPEAKER_03: Choice is power.
39:07
SPEAKER_03: If you can choose it, you can change it.
39:09
SPEAKER_03: If you can't choose it, you can't change it.
39:11
SPEAKER_03: And you can apply that to lots of issues that the church has wrestled with right now that we think are choices that aren't always choices.
39:18
SPEAKER_03: That's that grace truth thing.
39:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, Chris, you'd walk barefoot across fire if you knew coming off the other side, this would be over and done with.
39:27
SPEAKER_03: In other words, if there was something you could do that would bring an end to it, you you'd have done it three times already.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: And that's part of what breaks my heart, part of why you want to see the church wrestle its way to a new place, a new resting place with these issues.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: And Joey, it's beautiful that you brought that angle out, because I probably would have forgotten it.
39:45
SPEAKER_03: I'm not even sure I would have thought of it.
39:47
SPEAKER_03: But that whole idea that that person thinks it's their fault, I mean, gosh, man, that's enough to that's enough to say, God, help us do this, man.
39:56
SPEAKER_03: Help us do this, man, please.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: And and from our vantage point, Chip, we have uh a deeper perspective knowing Chris, but to think that people could and they do look at mental health challenges for someone like Chris or myself who are in ministry positions and second guess those callings or second guess what God is asking us to do because of deficiencies in our mental health, connecting it to like this is something bad that maybe we need to look at and reconsider whether or not these guys are supposed to even be in ministry, you know?
40:37
SPEAKER_03: Right.
40:38
SPEAKER_03: Well, and I do think I don't know.
40:40
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm not in the I'm not in the counseling room as much as I used to be, but I'm pretty confident saying it this way.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: I think it's worth the effort to work with someone to an extent or far enough to where they can determine is it clearly genetic, is it clearly situational and lifestyle issues like mine was, or is it some combination of the two?
41:03
SPEAKER_03: Because here's why I say that.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: Let's say it's not genetic.
41:07
SPEAKER_03: Okay, it's not, and you get where I got, and you have a panic attack and stress and whatever, but it's not genetic, it's not your brain isn't broken, it's just been abused by you and your schedule.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: And I'm saying that about myself.
41:24
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I did that to me.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, I really did.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: Now here's the truth's the problem.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: Basically, that person is living their life out of sync, out of calibration with God.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: The worst thing you could do is just throw pills at it.
41:39
SPEAKER_03: We're not saying, as soon as you hit a blip and you're, you know, you're not feeling the way you think you ought to be feeling.
41:45
SPEAKER_03: We're not saying go get a pill, but we are saying that the church needs to realize that that there are times when nothing but a pill or a miracle, right?
41:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, Shazam and you're healed, just like an arm could heal, so can your brain.
42:01
SPEAKER_03: But until then, a pill's going to be helpful.
42:03
SPEAKER_03: But if your issue's not that, the worst thing you can do is through now, you can put you can put pills on it while you're working on the issues that got you in trouble.
42:13
SPEAKER_03: You see what I'm saying?
42:14
SPEAKER_03: Because that's kind of what I did.
42:15
SPEAKER_03: I needed the medication so that I could function.
42:18
SPEAKER_03: But while I was functioning on medication, I was looking at working on the underlying issues.
42:25
SPEAKER_03: Like some of it for me was child stuff from my dad.
42:28
SPEAKER_03: I had come to work for Seaco's.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I was pretty honored to be hired by C COS.
42:35
SPEAKER_03: I was blown away that Greg Surratt liked me and blah, blah, blah.
42:39
SPEAKER_03: And I had this thought from my father.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: He would say, You're lazy, you'll never mind to anything.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: But what it turned into was sooner or later, I'm going to disappoint you.
42:48
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to be a disappointment to you.
42:49
SPEAKER_03: And so that thought's back there driving me.
42:53
SPEAKER_03: And that's what kind of booby-trapped me.
42:56
SPEAKER_03: Now the tragedy would be what if I never got to that thought?
43:00
SPEAKER_03: Because I just took Bills.
43:01
SPEAKER_03: Am I making sense?
43:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm not taking away from anything we've said.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Chris, at this stage in your life and your spiritual walk, and if you were to ever interact with a Christian who doubted the, I guess, legitimacy of your mental health challenges, maybe the proactivity of therapy, effectiveness of medicine, just wasn't on the scientific side of things and maybe would poke a little bit and be like, you know, are there some things in your life going on that maybe you're not being open about?
43:36
SPEAKER_02: But basically just doubting the whole mental health real thing that it is.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: How how would you handle that at this stage in your life?
43:44
SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: I'd have a really tough time with that.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that would be that would be quite the conversation.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would point to, because there are some things that I've noticed, you know, I've been in I've been in Christian counseling of uh some form or fashion for 10 years.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: I've changed counselors uh, you know, a few times, but I've yeah, 10 years.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: And um have really really have continued to work on the disciplines that I that I have in terms of learning to rest in God's presence, really tried and have made adjustments and continue to make adjustments because there are things that I know that I do that contribute to me feeling hurried, anxious, um, that I can continue to work on.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: So um I think that when somebody the more somebody heard my story, I would think they would understand, even if they didn't lean to the science side, I Think they would understand that there are some things that happened to me earlier in life that man, I don't know how a soul could go through without having some deep ruptures.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: But I would, I mean, I would readily acknowledge that there are maybe I would halfway agree with them, you know.
44:59
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know if I would argue with them.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: It depends on how open they were and what kind of questions they were asking.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: But I would at least point to the fact that, yeah, there are definitely some things that I at least currently know of right now that don't help my my situation that I am actively working on.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And I would just show them like, you know, like I've one of the things I do every day is it's easy for me to, based on some of the rejection I experienced early on, um, it's easy for me to identify uh with success, with achievement.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: I re I one thing that I've started recently is that just Neil Anderson from his book, I think like I can't remember the name of it, but I read a list of who I am in Christ every single day uh that just has a list of verses.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: And the one that always sticks out to me the most is 2 Timothy 1, 7.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: I've not been given a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: Like I read those over myself just as a way of like my identity is in Christ.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: It's not how others think of me, it's not how I perform.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'm hoping it's sinking in more and more.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, I wouldn't say it's totally sunk in, but it's sinking in more and more.
46:09
SPEAKER_01: And it's just one thing that I do.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, another thing, I use this uh one-minute pause app.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, they have, you know, this morning I took about, and this isn't like, hey, pat on the back, it's just one thing that I didn't feel terribly anxious this morning because I spent about 20 minutes listening to reflective music and people read scripture over me.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: That was about the first thing I did this morning.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: So I'm learning how to ride, ride this wave a little better over time, and it doesn't, it hasn't fixed everything, um, but it it helps.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: I still take the medication, you know, I can still see the the OCD pop up.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: I hope to be at a point where I can talk about, you know, I would say the OCD's gotten from like an eight to a 10 in affecting me to now where I would say it's more it more ranges from like a four to a six.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I know that I could die with it being at a zero.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: I know that God could do that.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: But there's a part of me that would love to say at age 60 that it's a two to a four.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: And if I if I knew right now that I would leave this earth with it at a two to a four, I'd be pretty okay with that based on the nature of the journey and how intense it's been.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: If I knew I could leave this earth at a two to a four, I wouldn't consider that a loss.
47:31
SPEAKER_02: I uh I I want for people who may be listening who haven't had their significant share of struggles and and mental health.
47:45
SPEAKER_02: When I hear Chris say something like that, as someone who has gone through and still goes through challenges, like I that just really hits so deep.
47:58
SPEAKER_02: I know that all suffering is suffering, but man, mental mental struggle, it it is I'll put it this way, it's a unique one.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: It is definitely unique, and just the thought of Chris thinking to himself, man, if by the time I was 60, if this could just be, you know, below four on the rag that clicks.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: And I would say uh talk about going really extreme, I I I think it's it's a it's a linear deal.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: So in the worst of my pain, that desire, like what are what Chris articulated was a desire.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: Man, I sure would like for that to happen you know when I'm 60.
48:45
SPEAKER_02: For me, it turned into if it doesn't happen in the next few days, I don't have the strength to outlive this.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
48:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's how bad it can get when you multiply what Chris is saying times 100, it turns from, man, I wish this wasn't my lot when I was 60 to I can't live like this.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and it is a continuing, continuing linear deal.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: But sorry for getting so depressing, but that's what came to mind when it comes to my start.
49:19
SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, there's lots of things that we can do better, and I think this conversation is intended to try to help the church kind of do better.
49:27
SPEAKER_03: You know, one goal, I mean, if you want to set the bar, I don't I wouldn't call it low because this is not necessarily low, but we want people to not feel alone, man.
49:37
SPEAKER_03: Number one, you you kind of want to self-isolate, you know, you don't really want to be around people when you're not feeling like awesome.
49:47
SPEAKER_03: And then people kind of don't know how to handle it.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: Gosh, you don't want to go through this stuff alone, man.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Chris, you and I over the years, we have definitely had each other in the way of you and I know that we can tell one another something and the other person not bat an eye, like, what?
50:06
SPEAKER_02: You had to turn the car back around?
50:08
SPEAKER_02: Like both of us are like, nah, I get it, man.
50:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:11
SPEAKER_02: And and and to think if all these years we didn't work in a climate where these conversations were okay to have, and and you, you and I didn't have to have little secret meetings.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
50:25
SPEAKER_02: Like we could talk openly about this stuff, you know, it's a big deal.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: It's funny, just the other day I posted something because we're our church right now is in a mental health series called Fine is a four-letter word, and I just posted something about it at you know, and how we had a counselor speak at our church this past Sunday, and some guy, I don't even know who he was, uh he just posted, he said, All it takes, what did he say?
50:50
SPEAKER_01: I'll butcher it a little.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: He said, I hope you're being sarcastic.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: All a uh it all a church needs is good cross, blood, the power of the death theology, and none of that psycho babble was was the response.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: And I just let it sit.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: I was like, because I wanted to say some like really harsh things.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just let it sit.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: And then this morning I just woke up and I and I just felt like I could respond lovingly.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: And I just said, you know, you're helping to me to articulate without realizing it why this needs the the attention that it does in the church.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: I said a little more than that.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: I but that's where I started.
51:33
SPEAKER_02: Did it get did it get PG 13?
51:36
SPEAKER_01: No, I honestly what I said is I he he focused all on the death of Christ.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: I said, what did Jesus?
51:41
SPEAKER_01: I I just kind of did like a little bit of a logical argument.
51:44
SPEAKER_01: I said, what did Jesus come to, why did he die and rise from the dead?
51:47
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of right answers, and I said, one of them is our freedom.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, are Christians perfect?
51:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, and and this is what I said.
51:55
SPEAKER_01: I said, yes and no.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: We are perfect in the sense that God sees Jesus when he sees us, but no, in the sense of still having tons of brokenness to work through.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: And what a great psychologist! What do they do?
52:11
SPEAKER_01: And then I just quoted Romans 12, too.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I just tried to like say, like, open your mind a little bit.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: That was was kind of what I was shooting.
52:25
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think when I hear that kind of stuff is I say, number one, uh, I hope neither you nor anybody you love has to deal with mental health issues, uh, true, real, physiological mental health issues, uh, because you're either not going to know how to handle them well and not get the help you need, or it's gonna devastate you that you have to reach out for that kind of help.
52:48
SPEAKER_03: And there's no need for that.
52:50
SPEAKER_03: And then the other thing I would say is um, if you had diabetes, would you take insulin?
52:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
52:56
SPEAKER_03: If you had high blood pressure, would you take blah, blah, blah?
52:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:00
SPEAKER_03: You realize the brain, in case you haven't noticed, it fits inside this body, just like everything else we were just talking about.
53:07
SPEAKER_03: And why would you take a pill for your uh pancreas or a pill for your whatever, uh, and not take one for your brain?
53:15
SPEAKER_03: The brain can break just like any other part of the body.
53:18
SPEAKER_03: Why do we why do we have such a hard time with that?
53:21
SPEAKER_03: Now, we all need to be smart enough to know that logical arguments don't dislodge some of that stuff because it's way down in their, I mean, some of it's way down at the level of their identity, like literally.
53:33
SPEAKER_03: If you were to ask me to change this belief, I would have to change who I am.
53:38
SPEAKER_03: That's pretty tough stuff.
53:40
SPEAKER_03: But for a lot of people, sometimes they just need that kind of like you know, perspective, like, oh, that one about the body, it was one of the things that helped shift me was when I realized, okay, wait a minute.
53:51
SPEAKER_03: Of course the brain could break.
53:53
SPEAKER_03: Why not?
53:53
SPEAKER_03: Why couldn't it?
53:55
SPEAKER_03: And uh thank God that we live at a time when people have devoted their lives to trying to figure out how it breaks and how to fix it.
54:02
SPEAKER_03: Now, have they gone too far one way?
54:04
SPEAKER_03: I would say they have, but we've historically have been way too far the other way.
54:11
SPEAKER_03: And we're just trying to try to figure out how to how to balance it, you know.
54:15
SPEAKER_03: Chris, appreciate it, man.
54:16
SPEAKER_03: You're awesome.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: Love to do lunch.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: I'll text both you.
54:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: I'm starting a four-week study called uh Shades of Grace, uh Exploring a Jesus Shaped Culture.
54:31
SPEAKER_03: And uh pre-recorded.
54:33
SPEAKER_03: I just, in fact, I was putting the final touches to it sitting here today.
54:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh, some of the written part of it, study guide and discussion questions.
54:40
SPEAKER_03: But bottom line is it'll hit every Tuesday on the podcast, I think, and uh YouTube.
54:46
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
54:47
SPEAKER_03: Check it out.
54:47
SPEAKER_03: And I'm talking to you, Chris, and anybody else out there.
54:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:50
SPEAKER_03: Love for you to check it out.
54:51
SPEAKER_03: Talk about grace and truth.
54:53
SPEAKER_03: We talk about how you become the way you are, we talk about spirit, soul, and body, how I was saved, I'm being saved, and I'm yet to be saved.
55:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh, just solid stuff that you need to know if you're gonna understand what we're talking about, and be able to explain it to somebody else.
55:09
SPEAKER_03: And then the last thing we talked about last week, fourth week, is uh one thing I do every day, which basically anybody who knows it's a message I preach.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: And it's basically about what I call RR in the Father's Law, learning to receive and rest in the Father's Law.
55:23
SPEAKER_03: So that'll be coming out a week at a time this month.
55:26
SPEAKER_03: But good conversation, good stuff, man.
55:29
SPEAKER_02: Love you guys.
55:29
SPEAKER_03: And listen, if you're out, if you're out there struggling, we want you to know you're not alone.
55:34
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, you know, oh, so you're gonna call me and give me a hug?
55:38
SPEAKER_03: Probably not.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: But the best we can, we're trying to we're trying to create a better environment within the church for us to not feel ashamed and feel like we've got a team behind us with us, and it's not our fault that we struggle with what we struggle with.
55:54
SPEAKER_02: And no big deal, but Chris and I could call Chip and get a hug.
55:58
SPEAKER_02: We have his number.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: No big deal.
55:59
SPEAKER_04: That is true.
56:00
SPEAKER_04: That is true.
56:02
SPEAKER_04: That is true.