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Old Decrepit Man and Baby Girl · Like a Virgin

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: This all comes back to show. No, it doesn't know,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: it really does because Charlie and the Hugle Lot enough
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: starring Jennifer Lopez. You are not doing this. This is Halloween.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: This is Halloween. I'm good screaming at night. It's only Halloween.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Because you've insisted that it is Halloween. It is Halloween.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: You're recording this at the end of September. It's not
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Halloween yet. Yeah, but it is officially spooky season. Sure,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: it's pumpkin spice season. It's spooky season. It's here, babe.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Last night we watched two of the movies that I
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: watched every Halloween. The vibe has begun. It I better
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: catch it, um. And for the virgins who don't know,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: we are continuing our oooky spooky series with the kind
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the King of Ook and Spook. Yes, well, the King
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: and the King of sort of like contemporary like consumerist
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: scarity vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly for kids. A creator
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: who has had quite a journey, um in a range
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: of films that people love and then films that people
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: don't love so much. Tim Burton is Today's discussion. As
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Lydia Diets aka Winona writer once said I myself am
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: strange and unusual, That's correct. She also said that her
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: whole life was a dark room and she had really
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: spiky bangs, which I at one point wanted. You should
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: be her for Halloween. Honestly, I have thought about it.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You've never done that before. No, I've never done it.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: You should never done it, never done Lydia diets and
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I'll be beetlejuice and I'll marry you. Okay, just kidding.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I would hate that, would never be juice, but I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: bet you could be sexy beetle juice. Let's look up
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: sexy beetle Justice for it anyway. We need it like
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: a virgin. This is like a virgin. The show we
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes and Toronto, and I
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: found some beetlejuice. Hello virgins, Hello virgins. We are coming
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to you from um a different coast or different time zone,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: a different state of mind, a New York state of mind,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: one might say. Definitely, I will say something that is
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: really amazing about you right now, being in New York
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: as you are. You're booked and busy, you are out,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: you have plans, you are seeing people, you are doing things. Yes,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I I do have to say I did enjoy getting
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: to say to you twice this weekend. Oh sorry, Well
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I didn't apologize because I would never do that. Um,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I did say I have plans, and you know what,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I think it was ugly of you to assume that
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't. Sure. I'm just kidding. I was definitely isn't
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: in accordance with the years that I've known you. Well, no,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: but hey, you're only speaking from the experience of me
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: being a friendless loser in Los Angeles and in New York.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: I am a loser with friends. Look, it takes one
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: to know, one says. And the reason I'm here in
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: New York a week early is because I realized all
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: my friends left l A and I was like, oh, no, no,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I need to get myself to New York's. Yeah, but
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: one thing you need to understand was that on Friday
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: when you texted me and asked if I wanted to
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: go out that night, and I said, oh, I have plans,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: and he said, oh, well, the party doesn't start till eleven.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: That's not going Just because baby, baby, listen, just because
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: you're on a different coast does not mean I'm a
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: different woman. And at eleven. At eleven o'clock, the only
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: place I want to be is leaving a movie, leaving dinner,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: or already in bed, just because i might be a
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: New York City, but I'm not going out to like
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a party that starts at eleven. Those days are behind me.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: You just got here and I was thinking, look, the
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: time zones are in your favor. Maybe you know jet
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: lags keeping you up a little bit later. It's a
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: good time to go out. Um, I'm glad you didn't go.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: You would have hated the show. Now the only thing
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: that's happened on the L train is me listening to
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Thoroughfare by e fl Cane on a loop and attempting
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: not to have a public breakdown. Can we talk about
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: how that song is so like the new autumnal anthem,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: like it is so like ethel Cane is so fall music,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: and it also is summer music because it's like hot, sticky, sweaty,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: But yes it is. It is very much helping me
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: feel the sad girl fall vibes. I've been doing the thing,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: but just walking around the Upper east Side seeing places
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: where parts of You've Got Mail were shot and listening
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: to listen into ethel Caine seeing places where You've Got
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Mail shot because you're on a personalized You've Got Mail
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: walking tour. It that that you pulled up, but like
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: there's like five different shooting locations from You've Got Mail
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: within like a five bluck radius. At my brother's apartment,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: there's also there's also my brother when when you walk
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: out of his building, the Lincoln Center AMC is within eyesight.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: It's right across the street. Whoas that's so convenient. I
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: do have to admit something though, which is that this
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: weekend this is really hard to say, I went to
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: a non AMC theater for the first time since I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: became a Stubb Any stuff? No, which one? Did you
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: go to? Regal Union Square, which has now even to
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: go to like one of like the Art House Cinema
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: was even go to like fucking Nighthawk or something, and
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: the Metro Regal well Metric. You know, the last movie
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: I saw before COVID was a screening of Melancholia at Metrograph.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: What did they know? What did they know? Um? They
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a lot? No, but the Regal Union Square has been
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: totally redone inside it's very like dark and clubby and
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: that is where I saw Smile on Friday. Yeah, there's
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: like smoke machines. My friend Ryan and I were gonna
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: go see a Triangle of Sadness. Yeah, we were gonna
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: look bad. No, I'm really excited to see it, but
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: it was it was sold out, so we ended up
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: seeing Smile instead. And let me tell you, after seeing
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: a trailer for that movie, every time I saw a
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: movie for the past six months, I was not expecting
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: it to be very good. But it was surprisingly good
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: and scary. I would have expected all the good scenes
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to be spoiled by the trailer. Was that we were
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: there a lot of other scenes as well. Were there
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: other scenes? There were other scenes. I will say, if
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: you've seen the trailer, like the full trailer, one of
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the biggest jump scares in the movie is in the trailer.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: It's the scene where she's sitting in the car and
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: the woman walks up to her and swings down. But
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: there's plenty of other good jump scares and I screamed
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: a lot. The main actress, Soci Bacon, who's Kevin Bacon's daughter, Um,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: was very good. She was also kind of giving Flkane
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit. And yeah, it was a good movie
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: the theater as much as I love seeing a horror
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: movie with an audience full of people, and it becomes
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: very like communal and you know, everyone's screaming. It was
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: very noisy, and people were talking during the entire film.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: But God, people talking during movies. That's so and yeah,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: but but not but not like but not like you know,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: little snippets of conversation every once in a while, which
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: my friend Ron and I were doing. At one point
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: we stopped, like like paying attention to the movie to
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: talk about partner track the Netflix show. Um, yeah, no,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: but there were but everyone else was talking. No, but
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: everyone everyone else was talking throughout the entire year movie
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: and not really trying to keep it at a low volume.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I will say, if it's like a scary movie,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: I endorse that, like I you know, if we've all,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: if well, if we've all come to the theater and
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: we're a green, that this is like a kind of
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: fine scary movie that we've seen the trailer for a
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: seven hundred times and so like we don't so we
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: can like act like we're gonna watch it at home.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be trash and say that, Um, you know,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I'll participate in that, but like I try to catch
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: the vibe of like what the theater is on, right,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I mean not all the time. Like sometimes you and
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: I are just fully talking, but we're still like we're
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: still like whispering and respectful. This was like running commentary.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: This was like more talking than our Hocus Pocus DVD
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: commentary track. So we now have tried multiple times to
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: talk about the new Interview with the Vampire show, and
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: it has I worked out for one reason or not.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: So I think now it's a good time to discuss. So, um,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: I think we should have that conversation. Yes, and I
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: will preface it for you virgins by saying we are
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: going to dive a little deeper into interview with the
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Vampire in our vampire centric episode. But when we recorded that,
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: we had not yet seen the new show. So I
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: think it's it's fine for us to just talk about
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: it now. And I've seen all three episodes that are
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: out for and you've seen the first two. I've seen
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: the first, so I have to say, you know, it
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: is now part of my must watch Sunday night TV
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: alongside House of the Dragon. Um. So some interesting things
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: about this this new adaptation of Anne Rice's you know,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: I think most famous work is this new show, which
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: is on AMC Plus, has updated the source material, which
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: you know, is about a vampire giving an interview, and
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the sort of framing device of this is that that
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: interview happened, but it wasn't like really true to life.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: And so now the vampire and the journalists aart revisiting
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: their interview fifty years later, and Louis the titular vampires,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: giving a more honest version of his story. And in
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: this updated version, Louis, rather than being you know, a
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: seventeenth century plantation owner, is now a black queer man
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds in New Orleans who runs
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: a string of brothels after his family fortune, you know,
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: kind of like crumbles to dust when his father dies.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And he meets listat Lion Court, who Listed Delenne, who
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: is so hot in this new version, so French, and
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: they fall in love. And the thing about interview with
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the vampire, and you know, we talk a little bit
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: about this in our Vampire episode, but like to give
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: you a preview. You know, Ann Rice's novel was very gay.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: It was explicitly gay. It was, and the film, as
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: much as I love it, it made all of that
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: explicit queerness into subtexts and it's very homo erotic, but
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: it's not out not gay, so subtextual that when I
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: watched it, and again you'll hear this an episode, but
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: when I watched it and Rose told me that there
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: were that it was gay in the book, I was shook.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, what it's like actually gay because
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: it's really just harmerotic subtexts. In the movie, it's like
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: really neutered. I'm not gonna But in Anne Rice's novel
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: and in all of her novels, it's very clear that
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Listat and Louis are lovers, and in this new show
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: they are also lovers. It is gay. It is It
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: is so gay, and you know, the whole first episode
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: is Listat, you know, seducing Louis, who is already because
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: of the changes that have been made to his character,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: is already an other um, you know, because he's a
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: black queer man in the early nine hundreds, and then
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: like that gets further exacerbated when he has turned into
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: a vampire. He's like the ultimate other. But in that
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: first episode, you know, they have this incredible love scene
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: before Lestat turns him into a vampire, he tells him
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: he loves him. It's just so good and sexy. And
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: in this new episode when you watch it, there's like
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: a discussion of open relationships and like polyamory, oh sexuality,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: And you know, I just love that it's so explicit
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: but still like really sexy and romantic and all the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: things that an and Rice adaptation should be. I love
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the adaptation. It's I'm gonna keep watching. I am, you know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: definitely gonna finish out my AMCs free trial for that
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: can to you to give a m C plus my
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: money or whatever. And uh, just as you said, like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: I am just really enthralled by the raw sexuality of
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the show, like sex shuality like with capital s or
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: non sensuality sexuality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I I really
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: appreciate that. I love how like horny it is. It's
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: very pulpy, right, like it leans into the kind of
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: graphic novel e also you know, Southern gothic kind of
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: edge of it. Um. I love that there's this kind
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: of new spin on this trope that you have pointed
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: out to me over and over again that like a
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: lot of like vampires fight in the Confederate War or something. Yeah,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: well that's not an interview with the Hire, but that
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: is in UM True Blood, in Twilight, UM, in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Vampire Diaries, those are all things. Were there vampires who
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: at one that we're Confederate soldiers? Literally all of them
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: were Confederate soldiers. So why so, Like what I'm saying
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: is like I feel because I'm the interview with Vampire
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Reboot is a period drama. I'm like I feel this, Like,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's already very racialized. They have conversations about
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: race that I think are really interesting, and I think
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: my one company is I do think Louis is like
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: can be occasionally like a little fart facey, Like sometimes
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I wish that he was just a little less soap
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: and a little more like acting. I just like don't
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: really see that. I think he's really good. I just
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: think I'm sometimes I'm watching and I get a little
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: bit of like gladrill and rings of power, like I'm
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: not really getting the emotion that I want. But he
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: is also really he's not as bad as glad you.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Glad you literally cannot make an emotion to save her life,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Like still literally okay, sorry, can I spoiler alert something
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: really quick? Sure? Sure? I for for all the virgins listening. Um,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I have kind of stopped watching Rings of Power. I'm
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: gonna wait till all the episodes are out and just
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: binge it because I just got really bored. I actually
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: won't even spoil it that hard. All I'm gonna say
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: is that something happens. We're in a huge part of
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: the world literally explodes, and and glad Reel still cannot
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: make a facial expression, like the world is collapsing on
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: top of her and around her, smoke, fire, brimstone, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: she cannot raise an eyebrow. I was like, girl, like,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: your botox is not like that restrictive, Like, I know
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: you can do this. It's actually comical at this point.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: But when all the episodes are out and you do watch,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I'm very excited to debrief. Well, I'm not excited to
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: debrief because it's not an exciting show, but I still
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: want to talk to you about anyways. Interview with the
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Vampire great much better than Rings of Power. Please watch it.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: It's so good. You haven't you you've watched some of
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: last night's House of the Dragon. Yes, oh, yes, we
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: need to catch up on Okay, but you haven't watched
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the whole thing, so we can't really catch up. No,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: so we can't get Maybe for the for the Virsion's benefit,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: we won't get into spoilers for last week's episode. But
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: as we are coming up on the end of the season,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: because I believe there's only two episodes left, what are
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: you most excited about? What are you most excited to see?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Where do you think this how do you think the
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: season is going to wrap up? Obviously? Okay, So Rania
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Damon are going to have like a wild fox sesh.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: They're gonna kill everyone. Rania is gonna walk up to
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: the bar. She's gonna say, can I have a groaning?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Smuggliante not really just came out of nowhere this weekend.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Payton Dicks really put in the word should be paying
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: her honestly, But like I have to say, just to
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: be annoying as an online area, I have been ordering
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the gronies at dive bars for like years, okay years.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I love ordering a groaning at like literally any bar
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: because it's really hard to funk up, you know what
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: I mean? Um, So I don't know like what all this,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: like you know why everyone's going crazy over Emma because
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: of the way so hot. God, they are so hot
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: and they're so good like the acting and last night's episode.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I will say last night's episode was not
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: one of my favorites of the season. I thought it
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: was a bit clunky. Um, but the performances across the
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: board are just so good. Yeah. This so I'm a
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: part way through this most recent episode. It's really choppy
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: right there there, trying because they do another time jump,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: but this is the last six years? Oh is it really? Okay?
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: That's great. So it's a six year time jump, allegedly
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the last one. And um, it's like they are just
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: planting plot points in teeny tiny scenes scattered through the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: whole episode to propel you forward and to kind of
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: get you up to speed, so to speak. And again,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like like we said last time, it doesn't feel like,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: you know, poorly done or like I'm not getting what
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I want, but I just I want more. So many eggs,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: so many eggs. People really in medieval times or whatever
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: just kind of reuse the same five names over and
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: over again. But do you have do you have a
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: favorite character? Yeah, I mean Rania. I love also Rain
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Rain rainis the who never was um. She she got
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: a lot to do in this episode, which was great.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: She did, and she's becoming more of like a player,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: like a real or she always has been, but it
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: is even more so like a player. I also like Helena,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: who is the daughter of Allison, who seems to have
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: some kind of prophetic vision thing happening. She might have
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the dragon dreams that some targe Arians have because she's
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: now predicted a couple of things over the course of
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: these episodes. And she has a sweet little moment in
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: this episode as well that you'll see. But you know,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the thing about the show is, as we've said, it's
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: everyone's bad, even the people that I'm rooting for, Like
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: obviously I'm Team Black, I'm on r near a side
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: at Team Inside, And I think the show is being
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: a little a little heavy handed with wanting you to
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: root for Rani a side by making Allison and the
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Greens kind of like more obviously and almost cartoonishly villainous,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: because I think, as we've said, when it comes down
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: to it, like these are all bad people doing bad
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: things for like the goal of what power. Like that's
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: kind of it, and so I'm not rooting for anyone
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: so much as I'm just enjoying the ride, because at
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, these are all bad people,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: and I like I already we all we all already
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: know how it ends because we've all watched Game of Thrones,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: so we know it's going to end badly. But it's
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: just so much fun to see how badly it's gonna end.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: It is and I think, just like in the container
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: of the story is still so compelling. So yeah, I'm
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: I'm I hate how much I've grown to like the show,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: but I think it's kind of my favorite thing on
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: right now. I'm going to be devastated with the vampire,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: devastated when it ends. Maybe I should be something from
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: House of the Dragon for Halloween. Um, if you have
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: suggestions for what I should be for Halloween, please slide
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: into our d M s at like a Virgin four
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: twenty sixty nine to let me know, because I still
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: have no clue as someone who hasn't seen quite as
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: much of the Tim Burton cannon as I have. What
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: do you think defines a Tim Burton film? Well, he
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: is a bit than ookie spooky girl. I think like
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: an oogie spooky aesthetic. I think everyone in the movie
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: needs to look blue in the face, just like like
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: so white that they are blue. Like that actually is
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the palette that he's working with. And I actually think
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: that palette and like escape of color is is really
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: big in his films, Like there is an aesthetic that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: draws everything together. And then would you say, would you
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: say that above all Tim Burton movies are defined by
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: their aesthetic Unfortunately, yeah, um, and I you know it's
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: so funny is as someone who has on the pod said,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I'm like much more style over substance sometimes when we
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: were talking about like bas Learman, I do think that
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Tim Burton is kind of that girl too. Yes, I
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I will say that I think he has some themes
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: that he does return to that are not just stylistic.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Among them what death, death, the afterlife, um, you know, magic, darkness.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: He also really likes um murder ghosts. Yes. Also, um,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: he is very into revisiting sort of older pieces of
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: pop culture. I think he's very much stuck in his
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: childhood and looking back at those things through his lens.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So things like Batman, Alice in Wonderland, dark Shadows, Charlie
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: and the Chocolate Factory, and he is obsessed with youth
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and innocence for a big chunk of his career. And
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I would say like from the nineties to now, he
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: has primarily made ookie, spooky, family friendly films and entertainment.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And these are a lot of these are reboots, right,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: A lot of these are adaptations of particularly dark stories
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: from the yore of children's storytelling. You know, I think
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: that darkness is something that you can say ends up
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: in every single one of his films, is some capacity
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: both literal and metaphorical darkness. But I also he is
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: thought of as an auteur, and I think there is
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: a cultural perception that with his films he is writing, directing,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: doing all of the stylistic work, and in a lot
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: of cases that's not always true. You know, something like Beetlejuice,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: which I think is a really good place for us
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to start, because I do believe it his his best work,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and we watched it last night. Fran saw it for
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the first time. Um, he didn't write the script to Beetlejuice.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Beetlejuice was a script that was kind of shuffling around
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: the studio system trying to find the right director and
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: went through a bunch of rewrites until it eventually made
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: its way to Tim Burton. It was a newly much
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: darker and was you know, through his work on it
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: became sort of a lighter. I mean obviously still very
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: you know, tongue in cheek and there are things now
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: that I don't think you'd get away with, and a
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: sort of like family comedy today. But yeah, I mean
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: it's still like palatable for a PG thirteen audience, even
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: though Beetlejuice does say fuck at least once. Oh, I
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: think in PG thirteen movies you actually can only say
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: fuck once and then if you say at a second time,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: if you say a second time, it's radar ar. Yeah. Um,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I know that because my family, because of how I
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: grew up. Um, but how so you grew up not
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: really watching a lot of Tim Burton. No, Well, what
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: happened was, um, you know Tim Burton is the Devil. Yes,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: the encapsulation of the devil and the Devil's presence in
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: mainstream media and was huge at the time of our
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: like growing up. And so I don't know if my
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: parents really knew explicitly like who Tim Burton was, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: then I couldn't watch his movies. But if they were
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to see a trailer of literally any of his movies,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they'd be like, you're you're not watching that, that's like
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: the Devil, And like I didn't see, you know, things
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: like Nightmare before Christmas until I was like a late teen.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I didn't see a lot of those movies until I
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: was older, but I did. By the time I was
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: a teen and entering my hot topic era, I was
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: becoming obsessed quote unquote with Tim Burton, which really just
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: meant that, like I bought Tim Burton T shirts and
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: paraphernalia but actually didn't know that much about his Well, yeah,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I do think that the transformation of Tim Burton is
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: from someone who made very strange cult films to someone
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: who is kind of synonymous with the type of genre
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: fandom consumerism that exists at hot topic like Tim Burton
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: in is hot topic. Yeah, he is, literally, I mean
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: he was paying Hot Topics light bill, Like that's really
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: what was happening. If you walk into a hot topic,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: you can get your Jack Skellington costume. You can get
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: your like dress that's like a shitty polyester that is like, um,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: you know, going to spread my grol plastics in this
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: earth for then two years and it's printed with Sally's
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: dress on it. Yeah, and for some reason you can
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: still buy you know, a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: t shirt or and Alison Wonderland t shirt. God knows
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: why because those are like among his worst films. So, like,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: so you didn't spend a lot of time with his
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: work when you were a kid. Unsurprisingly, I did. I
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: actually did. I mean I did spend a lot of
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: time like not as a kid kid, but by the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: time I was a teen, It's just like I did
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: become obsessed and I would tell people that Corpse Bride
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: was my favorite movie. Okay, yeah, Like that's like I
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: think pretending to like Tim Burton was a part of
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: how I was as a kid. But I do think
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: teenager is still different from kid because if we're talking
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: about the formative power of media, you know, Nightmare Before Christmas,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that was that was me as a child, because I
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: remember Before Christmas came out when I was five years old,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and I vividly remember the day that my parents got
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: it on VHS and brought it home. My dad also
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: bought me all the action figures. It was my entire world. Um.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And I think because I got it so early and
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: along with that also was into really into beetlejuice. Um,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: it absolutely informed and formed my tastes and aesthetic and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: me me being a spooky bitch. And I think if
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I had gotten it even a little later in life
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: the way that you did, that might not have been true.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Or maybe I always would have been drawn to those
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: kinds of things. But I think tim Burton was really
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the only person who was putting that kind of spook
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: into things specifically that kids could watch. Yeah, but I
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: mean to go back to the initial question, like what
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: are the other things that make a Tim Burton film
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that you were like maybe attracted to as a kid,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Because I think for me, it's like there's the oooky
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: spooky factor. There's the Danny Elfman's score, there's like his
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: use usually a musical number, yes, usually several, if not several,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: that's right. You have this kind of emo sensibility, I think,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and everything like in all of his films, there's always
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: some sad boy protagonists, yes, And and at the crux
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: of like pretty much every protagonist is an existential question
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: about like love and death honestly like and and how
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: those things are usually at odds, but also kind of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: um self fulfillment because he does get pretty existential because
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: you look at like Jack Skellington in The Nightmare Before Christmas?
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: His whole thing is what what am I doing? What
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: is my purpose? What am I here? For? Edwards scissor Hands,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: It's it's about why do I am? I? Why do
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I exist? Even Beetlejuice, it's like, what do I do
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: with my life now that I'm dead? Yeah, now that
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I'm dead? I think you have a version of that
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: even in Corpse Bride, which a movie that gets a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: lot of flak, but like, I actually think perfectly distills
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a lot like of his, of Tim Burton's like philosophical ideas.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: It is not very good, No, it's not. I definitely
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: bought it in like the Blockbuster dollar bin. Like you know,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: remember how Blockbuster used to have those like bins of
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: movies where it was like, when the movie comes out,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: they buy like ten copies to rent, and then by
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the time it's like no longer relevant, they don't need
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: ten copies of it, so they sell like nine of
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: for like two dollars I bought Corporate Bride probably for
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: two dollars, like that is like the vibe. But I
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: but I loved that movie because it was so melodramatic
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: and because as a child, I was attached to a
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: very adult idea of what it means to live the
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: same as like Jack Skellington. Right. And I think that
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: it makes sense that Tim Burton's movies primarily appeal to
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: children because his ideas about human existence are actually pretty shallow,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they are childlike, they're
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: they're very there's something that a child can understand. Yeah,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: there's not a lot of depth there. And I wonder
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: if it's a regression in a way, because his early
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: work is much more adult. You know, you have Edwood,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: which neither of us have seen, but it's a biopic
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: about some flop director. And then he does things like
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Peewee's Big Adventure or which you know ostensibly is still
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a kids movie but is very adult and used to
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: terrify me as a child, Batman and Batman Returns, which
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: are very adult and sexy. Um, thank god for Tim
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Burton giving us some shellfie first Catwoman. I think out
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: of all of these films that that is my favorite
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Timburton film. I'm pretty gosh darn sure. Do you think
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you have a favorite Timburton film. Yeah, it's this is tough,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: It's tough. It's definitely between the night Remember Before Christmas
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: and Beetlejuice. I do think, as I have grown up,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: it's Beetlejuice that just I will always have a place
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: in my heart for the night Remember Before Christmas. And
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: I think part of why I pulled away from it
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: is sort of the disnification of the Nightmare Before Christmas
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: and just how it's like every emo scene. Girl in
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: high school had a you know, a Jack Skellington patch
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: on her backpack from Hot Topic. Um, I still love it.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: It's still amazing. It's not a Halloween movie. It's not
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: a Christmas movie. It's a Thanksgiving movie. It's it's not
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: it's not that's just fun. That's just fun. Mentally not true.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I Phoebe's in here in the studio laughing at you
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: because that is such an inaccurate take. But the older
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I have grown, I do think of everything he's made,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Beetlejuice is the most perfectly aligned to my taste. Um,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: it's funny, it's spooky, it's a little gross, it's adult,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: it's adult. It's horny, it's very horny, inappropriately horny, inappropriately horny. Um.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I actually, so are you aware of all of the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Beetlejuice musical? Um? I actually am, yeah, but I've never
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I I know that it was a hit, right, it
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: wasn't really a hit. And actually, so this is the
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: story of the Beetlejuice Musical is that it wasn't really
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a hit, but it gained a huge cult following in
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the way that a lot of contemporary musicals that appeal
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: to like people on Tumblr do. Um. But another show,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I think it was The Music Man, was moving in
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: to the theater where it was supposed to be. So
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: it closed two huge fan outcry and there was a
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: campaign to bring it back, and it is now back
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: on Broadway once again. Wait really and actually shook by
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: that because one thing you do not see in this
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: day and age is Tim Burton coming back to relevance
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: in any capacity. Like it's just doesn't He's not really there.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: The musical is very different from the movie in a
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: lot of ways, and the music was I saw it
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: when it was still in previews, Um, and was not
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: expecting what it was. Um, but it's really good and
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: the song dead Mom slaps so hard. But anyway, you
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: watched Beetle Juice for the first time last now that
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: you know that it's my favorite Tim Burton movie and
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: it did come out the year I was born, So, um,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: what did you think? I have such a This really
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: should be a very simple question. Um, but I have
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a hard time answering it because I think I think
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: the more I think about it, I don't think I
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: necessarily personally enjoyed it as a movie. And I think
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: that as a kid, I would have really disliked it
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: because I just hadn't grown an affinity for the grotesque yet. Um,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: it was something that I was still scared of. But
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: watching it now where I can see a movie like
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: Getle Juice and know that it is like objectively beautiful,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: that it is objectively like cinematic invention in something that
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: other directors and creators were just not doing at the time,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: right like for the Virgins, Like by this point tim
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Burton had quit being being a Disney animator, right Like
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: when he quit being an animator, he was like, no
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: one's letting me do the kooky, spooky ship that I
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: want to do. Then he did frankn Weenie, and I
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: think another thing that caught the you know, attention of
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Hollywood people. And then in came Beetlejuice, Peewee and Batman,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: which I think are an amazing triad to show off
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: like what he does as a director, because there are
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: three very different kind of takes on Tim Burton Suoki
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Spookies that Day. But it's also like very much um
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: the standard trajectory for directors that still exist today, which
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: is you make the small passion project that gets people's attention. Um,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: then you make the somewhat larger movie the studio gives
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: you some money it turns out to be a big
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: hit than you do a superhero movie. Yeah, exam. And
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: after that you get to make whatever you want. And
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: what's interesting about Beetle Juice specifically is like, of these
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: three movies, Beetlejuice is the closest to Imburton's current and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: ever president aesthetic, right Like it is this like the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: most spooky, has the most claimation, has the most like
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: kind of like haunted house, dead diva goth superpower kind
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: of stuff. Um. On the on the service level. I mean,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: you and I were having a great time, like an
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: O'Hara of it all. Watching you watch the dinner party
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: d O scene for the first time was very satisfying
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: for me. I didn't you were gagged. You were gagged.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I was gagged. But I didn't like. I didn't like
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: that scene. I didn't like. I think that's a lie.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I think you're revising history. You liked it? Well, can
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: you do what? What were my mannerisms that would describe
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: that you were my job? You were wrapped with attention.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Your job was on the floor, My job was open.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: But did I say anything? No, because you were so transfixed,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: because I was so transfixed. Okay, so if I'm being
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: really real with you, I don't really want to go
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: there right away. But I actually was really distract and
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: by the fact that they're singing like a Jamaican song
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and it's like an all white cast, and I'm like
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: thinking about how Tim Burton thinks about these songs and
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: how his movies through this whole era were like all
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: white casts, and in his you know, defense of that,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: he talks about how like people of color just don't
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: fit into a asthetic or whatever his words were, and
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like, but actually they do like their sensibilities and
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: their culture and like where and like well yeah, and
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: he's happy to steal from that, but not to at that,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and he's happy to have a bunch of white people
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: like lip sync songs that are like sung by white people,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: but like are like literally historically like black songs are
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: like songs that like say shake shake, Senora or whatever.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know this, this is I'm like, honestly,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: like I I the reason I don't want to I
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: didn't want to go into it is because it's such
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: a not fun reaction to a movie that is ultimately
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: actually very entertaining and inventive and good. And there are
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that I like about Tim Burton.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And yet because I guess this is what I'm taking
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: responsibility for for the Virgins, I think I went into
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: the viewing experience of Beetlejuice already feeling like I didn't
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: like Tim Burton. Well, because when we started watching the movie,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: you were literally reading an article about Tim Burton being racist.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: I would not look up from it to watch the movie.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: No, no no, no, that was just in the first five minutes.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I was just the first five minutes I did watch
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: you did you did kind of set yourself up there. No,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: But the thing is that would have been the case
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: even even if I hadn't read that article. I know
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: that I was coming into that experience with a net
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: distaste for Timber and as someone who used to be
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: obsessed with him. And I think that, you know, and
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I understand the distaste. I think all of the things
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: that you're saying are true, and that I am biased
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: because I mean am white, So I'm like, I'm always
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: biased by that and be his movies were extremely important
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to my understanding of my own, you know, sensibilities as
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: a child. Yeah, And I don't necessarily feel like me
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: bringing up my reaction to that scene is like, is
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: what makes this movie like problematic or cancelable or whatever?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: That's like not really what I'm trying to say. It
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: was just like my pure naked reaction. And I kind
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: of just tried. I tried to like go back and think, like,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: what would you be thinking about this if you had
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: watched it in the early nineties instead, Like what would
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: your reaction? I think they would have just been scared.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I think I would have been scared. Yeah, I don't.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: I think I would have latched onto maybe Gina Davis's
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: character went on a writer's character. But Catherine O'Hara, No, yeah,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: I would have No, that's true, that's true. I would
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: have loved Katherine Slay of the Millennium. Yeah, she really
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: did that. She really did that. But um, this was
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: not the only Tim Burton film that Katherine O'Hara did. Also,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: she is the voice of Sally in The Nightmare Before Christmas.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I forgot that she did that, that
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: was her moment. But yeah, um, but I don't think
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: she's been in any of his other films. And yeah,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: there's a couple of people obviously that Tim Burton has
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: worked with again and again there's some people who are
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: only in a few films. And then well there's kind
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: of really only one person, which is Helena Bottom Carter,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: who's been in everything he's ever made because because they know,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: because Johnny Depp has done Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Edward
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Scissor Hands, Sweeney Todd, Alice in Wonderland, Okay Dark, Yeah,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: so I think yeah, and Helena was married to him. Also,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: have you ever heard the story that they um lived
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: in houses next story to each other and there was
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: a tunnel that went underneath the ground that connected them.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I've heard that we should probably fact check that, but
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: it is my ideal relation. It is also my ideal relationship.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: But then, yeah, there are some people like Winona only
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: did two movies. She did Beetle Juice and Edwards is
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: her hands. And I feel like maybe unless you are
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Tim Burton's partner, if you're a woman, you age out
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: of being his muse rather quickly, because as we've seen,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Tim Burton is obsessed with this ingenue figure. There's always
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: some bitch in his movie with big gass eyes, anywaist,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: she's usually blonde or very dark hair. No, she's definitely
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: always They're actually like archetypes where it is the same
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: length long blonde like wavy curly hair. But then you
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: have Winona and Beetle Juice and she has dark hair.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: But then she does have the blonde hair and Edwards
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: is her hand. That's what I'm Yeah, I don't think
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: that Winona and Beetle Juice fits the moment, but she does.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: I think that throughout all of his films, we have
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: this supple virgin, all innocent, just on the cusp of adolescence. Girl.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: And you noticed you noticed this when we were watching
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: last night, because we were watching Sleepy Hollow, which Christina
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Ricci plays this character, but miawasa Kasa Kazakowski or whatever.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: And Alison Wonderland is that girl, the girl from Sweeney This,
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: you know the Songbird Greenvench showeber Joanna is that in
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Sweeney Todd Um And then there is um Spella heath
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Coat and Dark Shadows. Yeah, and it's just like it's
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: amazing that Timberton's like I mean, it's just I don't know,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: it's just like kind of um creepy. It's kind of creepy,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: isn't ye the same? It's like it's t it's creepy,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: but it's not surprising. It's almost boring. It's like creepy
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: on the level that like Quentin Tarantino always has these
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: scenes about like feet, you know what I mean, Like
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: that is like what it makes me think of um.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: But but you know what, I am grateful that it
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: launched Winona's career because then because of because we have Wona.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: It was so funny. We were watching um as we
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: were watching Beetle Juice from some angles. I was like,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, who looks exactly like
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Millie Bobby Brown? And you were like, no, no, no,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Millie Bobby Brown looks like Winona. Like she was the
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: blueprint for the ooky spooky girl, which I think is
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: so smart. Um, she is all I wanted to be.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I also thought it was very funny last night when
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: you were trying to figure out why Lydia Diets is
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: the only one in Beetle Juice who can see the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: ghosts and you decided it's just because she's I mean,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: she literally says she is looking in the handbook and says,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: don't see the strange and unusual. And she famously says,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I myself am strange and unusual. So yeah, she's just
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: a golf Also, I love our producer Phoebe pointed out
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: that Beetlejuice is at its core film about gentrification and displaced.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: The displacement. Yeah, honestly, I wish that we as ghosts
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: could go back and haunt the gent frying populations of
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: like you know, four Green or whatever. But like I
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: was the gentrifier. Yeah, I know, I know, Yeah I was,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I was as well, when we're talking about like other
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: things that are recurring themes in like Timberton movies, I
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: feel like we saw a lot of those between the
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: double feature that we had last night in Sleepy Hollow
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and Beetlejuice. Sleepy Hollow is one of my favorites. It
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: came out so I was eleven years old. I was like,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: it was exactly the right time for me for that movie.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a little bit more adult than the
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: other stuff he was making at the time. Um spooky vibes.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: There's witches in it. As I told you last night,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: I used to have an action figure of the Witch character,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: which so stupid. When you squeezed her, the snakes would
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: pop out of her eyes and her mouth, and I
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: just she was my most prized possession. She was your
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: most prized Like. I also got an action figure of
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Ichabod Crane and I was like, what am I Johnny
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Depp version or a disnal version or the Johnny version.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I was like, what the fund am I going to
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: do with him? Yeah? His his eyes don't pop out.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And I also got the headless horseman who came with
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: a horse, and I was like, I want the horse.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I don't really care. Well, here's just want the witch
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and the horse. That's it. Wait, let's get into it.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: The headless Horseman, unbeknownst to me, was played by Christopher
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: walking And I said, and I have to say, Christopher
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Watkins character selection across time and space is untouchable, is
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: so perfect, And it is so Christopher walk In and
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: like there what he what? The characters he chooses to
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: play are simultaneously predictable and yet perfectly in his ether. Also,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I revealed to you last night that he may or
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: may not have killed Natalie Wood, which I had no idea.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Did you know this, Phoebe, that Christopher Walkin has maybe
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: killed Natalie Wood? Okay, will you explain this? Yes, Natalie
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Wood drowned on a boat and no one knows how
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: she died. And Christopher Walkin was on the boat, one
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: of three people on this boat. I don't know how
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: many people, not that many people on the boat. But
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Christopher Walkin was another thing that you didn't know, was you?
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: It took you an hour until I mentioned it for
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: you to realize that that was a young Alec Baldwin
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: in Beetlejuice. I had no idea and let me say
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: he has a fat ass. He does. He has a
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: juicy as a juicy juicy ass. Listen, we don't support
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin or his wife or his wife and they're
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: like twenty five children about the woman that he killed
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: on the set of that movie. Um, but that is
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: really really hot in Beetle Juice. But honestly, actually, now
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: that we're like panning out a little bit, like the
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: fact that Timber is so comfortable working with like an
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Alec bald Went or a Johnny Depp, I think it's
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: very telling of the people he might find in his circle.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: And the fact that these a lot of I think
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of his films are produced by Scott Rudan.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I think there are some there are some connections here
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Tim Burton in Hollywood suck. Yeah. Wow, I really cracked
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: the case on that one. This is what the people got,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: the people. Someone please clip this out and the peabodies please. Okay,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: so it must be okay, shut up, Okay, I need
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to want Okay, Yes I did. I did fall asleep
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: halfway through the movie. And when I woke you up
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: to tell you I was leaving, you went that was
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: so good? Did I really would you always would you
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: always do. And when we watch something and you fall asleep,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: you go, that was so good, and then you and
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: then you're and then yeah, and then you try to
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: get me to stay and hang out and I'm like,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: you're sleeping. I was like saying, hang please, let's hang out,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: let's sing out. Um okay. But here's what I do
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: remember actually that I do remember thinking that it was
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: pretty flawlessly gorgeous, like I remember beautiful. I remember thinking
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: it was beautiful. I thought it costumes, my god, Christina's
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: waste and her wigs and for Nanda Richardson. Yeah, so
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: many Harry Potter actors for one movie and for nine
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: did not feel dated at all, Like felt like fully
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: it's a very classic story, very classic story, like I
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: one of the oldest American myths. Yeah, and we were attracted.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: We were attracted to Christopher Lee, who plays one of
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the judges, because he is and when he came on screen,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, look theself. He also plays an angry
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: priest in The Corpse Bride. I think and I love
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: actually that priests are like um uh villains in his
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: his films and stuff. That's dad in um Sleepy Hollow
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: is a priest who put it, finds out his wife
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Johnny Depp's mother is a witch, and puts her in
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: an iron maiden and kills her. Yeah, I I thought
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: that was pretty pretty disgusting but beautiful. Like I guess
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: the first time I ever understood when an iron maiden was.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: It was also the first time I understood what an
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: iron maiden was. Um, last night that is. But yeah,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: watching Sleepy Hollow like I did, I was kind of like, Um,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: I couldn't stop thinking about the thing that you noticed
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: about this, like long haired, blonde virgin archetype and the
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: fact that Johnny Depp is thirty six in this movie
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: and Christina Reggi is the actors actors, but the actress
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: thirty six and Christina Reriggi is eighteen. And I was
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: like Tim Burton when of his way to cast like this,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: you know what also is And I'm not defending it again,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: but also that's Hollywood. That's Hollywood. Sure, it's like old
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: decrepit man and baby girl. He didn't look decrepit. I
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: literally thought he was in his twenties. I literally thought
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: he was in his twenties. He looks really young. But
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: he um, you know, just just just to get it
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: out of the way, I must say that though he
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: is very Though Johnny Depp is very um cute in
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: in Sleepy Hollow, he is his hottest in the movie
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Choke a Lot, which I did finally watch over the
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: talking no no, no no, no, we're we're not We're gonna
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: a lot is a Tim Burton felm shock a lot
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: must be this is not an episode about Johnny deppell
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: it's no. But I have to say no, no, no, no,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: let me say let me say this yes and no no,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: but I must say Johnny Depp was excruciatingly fine in
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Chook a Lot. Like he was. I dare anyone, anyone
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: with a with a feminist perspective to watch Choko a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Lot and tell me that Johnny Depp is not fine. No,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: I don't want to tell Amber heard that. But he
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: is so sexy and okay, great, are you one of
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: his bots? Now about you know about like Amber heard?
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: My body tells, wait wait wait wait wait wait, Actually
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: this is a really good this is a really good tangent,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: because not if it's about Choke a Lot, Come on,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: this is this is this is um I do think that, um,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: there is something to be said about a cultural attachment
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: in the present day to Johnny Depp and Tim Burton's
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: part to play in that right, because he's he's looped
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: into our childhoods in this way that is very hard
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: to extricate ourselves from. Because he was both because of
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: this and because of Pirates of the Carabee, in which
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: we talked about a couple of episodes ago. Um, he
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: was everywhere and I was, um, you know, admittedly like
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: a bandwagon Timberton fan, because I didn't have access to culture,
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: you know, when he came out so to so to speak,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: and so of the closet of the when I when
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: I can't, when I when he whatever, when I started
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: conducing timbers ever sucked and fucked. No, I think he's
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: really homophobic. Yeah, I think he's really I'm not joking.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I think that he is really retro retro homophobic, like
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: fire and Brimstone homophobics, not like not not not even
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: like I don't care what they do. I just don't
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: want to see it. It's like he's actively like I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: don't want to see it, and you're going to hell. Yeah,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: And I think he thinks I think his kind of
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: issue is really the poop poo in the butthole thing,
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: because like I've never been it's not he's all like,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: there's never been any queerness and anything He's ever well,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: let's be clear, there has been rampant queerness and gayness
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: in his films, but not of his design. Yes, and
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: and and that's the thing is, like we were watching
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Beetle Juice and there's this faggot character who is almost
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: almost explicitly fag faget. Yeah, oh no, they like they
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: say it it coded like something about your kind or whatever.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: But like again, it's like a homophobic remark. Like I
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: think that Timberton is like explicitly you know in the
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: musical Beetle Juice. So you know how in the movie
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: Beetle Juice keeps trying to hook up with Gina Davis.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: In the musical they have it be the Alec Baldwin character.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Oh I love that. That's a nice little subversion. I
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: love that. Um. So, like on that note, as I
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: was saying, like I was a Bandwagon fan, so by
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: the time I started to love Timberton, he was starting
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: to sell out. So um, and what do you define
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: as him selling out. Well, it's funny because his career
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: started because he felt there was no place for him
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: in Hollywood. And when Hollywood started to give him vehicles
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: for his ookie spooky um aesthetic, and they understood how
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: that was like marketable and that there was like, you know,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: an audience for this. He was making films that, like
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of timber and stance. He as
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: really amazing and untouchable, like Beetlejuice or Batman. And then
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: as he got more and more successful and created UM
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: things that were more truly just for commercial success and
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: not for the art that UM people saw the quality
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: of us work declins, like Alison wonder For me, that
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: was Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Alice in Wonderland.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was two thousand five, Alison
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Wonderland was two thousand and ten, so they weren't that close.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: But um, I saw both of those movies in theaters.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I thought Charlie and the Chocolate Factor was actually pretty
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: good when I watched it, like I thought, I remember
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: really enjoying it. Unfortunately, I will always be a Willy
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Truther. Yeah, I mean I
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: don't think they. I think Jean Wilder Forever. Obviously they're
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: going to be compared. But I do think Tim Burton
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: made something that was uniquely his own. I remember really
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: like by that time, I was a full blown stand
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: so I think my experience of the film was maybe
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: a little tainted. But I do think it um is
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: em nomatic of something that he does really well, which
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: is um show us how much he can push a
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: really dark edge UM into a children's film, like this
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: is a textual children's firm. But like Rolled Dahl, you know,
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: was um. His source material was always sanitized for movies, right,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Like his books were way darker than what the movies
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: made them out to me not always look at the Witches.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: The Witches is one of the movies that scared me
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: the most when I was a kid. I but the
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: but the book is even I would say, yeah, that
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: the movie is a tried and true, very dark adaptation,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: but I still think the book is darker. It is
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: darker in the way it ends because the in the
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: end of the book The Witches, Um, they talked about
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: how the boy is going to die in a couple
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: of years because he's a mouse, um, and the movie
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: ends with a happy ending with him getting turned back
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: into a human. Yeah. I honestly, Um, I don't know
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: why my brain is jumping to this, but I'm thinking
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: a lot just about like childhood and how like there
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: is this weird kind of childhood corruption and childhood trauma
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: narrative that flows through a lot of his movies, right,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: like what happened to Tim Burton as a kid, Like
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: because when you think about his dog died with Alison
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: Wonderland Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. But I think Alison
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Wonderland is like Frankie wanted to make it and they
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: hired him to do Sweeney Todd. Yeah, that's true. That's
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: true with Sweeney Todd, with that movie, Perelli's Helper and
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: also um, Joanna are these like archetypes that come in
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: and out of Tim Burton's movies where we have a
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: child that is being corrupted by people in their life
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: that are sometimes pedophilic, which I think is the case
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: of Joanna's dad. Well, Joanna's dad who is you know,
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: um the judge wants to marry her, right yeah, and
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: then we all and then also just like this child
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: who has been pushed over the edge and then murders someone.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I what do you think that is? Like? I think
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like what what like? I mean, I
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: don't know that that that that exactly? Well, I guess
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: there's a pervy kind of through line in some of
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: his films. Yeah, well, I think when you have a
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: male director, and this is something that I think about
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: a lot with people like Ryan Murphy, When you have
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: someone who only makes art about youth and young people,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: what's that about? What trauma are you working through? When
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: is Ryan Murphy going to get over high school? When
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: is Tim Burton going to get over his childhood? Is
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: such a good way of putting it, because I do
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: think that in this era of Tim Burton, why didn't
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: he at some point go make an adult movie? Like
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: he had all of the blank checks that he like
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: available to cash, that he could have done that. But
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: clearly this is just what he's interested in doing, is
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: making movies about childhood and you know, adolescence and you
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: know these kming of age stories. Why is he so
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: stuck on it? And We're Sweet Todd is an adult movie?
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I would say that his film's got progressively more child life.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: He's only done a few things like Mars Attacks, you know,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: is an adult movie. Yeah, but it also there are
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: several character point of view characters who were children, and
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I think he's always in anything he does is going
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: to find that point of view to look from. Even
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: the next thing that he's doing is he's um executive
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: producing the New Wednesday Show for Netflix, which about Wednesday Adams,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: which looks which looks really fun. I'm excited about it. Um,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: But again he just I think this when he's dead
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: one day and we look back at the entirety of
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: his career, this will be one of the things we
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: pulled out is that this was a man who made
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: movies about youth and how scary being young could be.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: And maybe the horror and the spookiness that he was
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: drawn to was a way of making literal how terrifying
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: it is to be a child. Yeah, which I appreciate, right,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Like we've discussed James and the Giant Peach before, which
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: I think he was only like a tangential producer on
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: or directed by Henry Selick who worked on the Nightmare
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: before Christmas. Okay, okay, so that all the connection the
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: connections are there, and I think James and the Giant
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: Peach is another film that really exemplifies the thing you
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: just kind of crystallized about childhood and what that may
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: be meant to Tim Burton. But I don't know. I
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: think that when we to your to your point, like
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: when he dies, I'll be curious to know what we
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: still think of him as a director and if he
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: still has a chance to contribute something to the culture
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: that is as impactful as what he released in the
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: you know, nineties. There are a lot of detractions to
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: be made about his work, Like, as we already touched
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: on briefly, he is a person who only makes movies
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: about white people. Yeah, which is UM kind of kind
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: of funny sometimes, Like I think that UM for the
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Virgins if you don't know, Like a Bustle interview like
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: five six years ago, UM interviewed him and asked him
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: specifically about how his films only have white people in them,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: and he said, um, nowadays, he's like, nowadays people are
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: talking more about it, but he said, um, things either
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: call for things or they don't. I remember back when
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I was a child watching The Brady Bunch and they
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: started to get all politically correct, which is a term
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: politically correct is something that Tim Burton says frequently, which
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I think is very telling about the type of person
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: he is. UM. And then he says, like, okay, they
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: have let's have an Asian child and a black a
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: black UM. I used to get more offended by that
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: than just I grew up watching black sploitation movies and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I didn't say there should be more white people in
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: these movies, which is and and it just ins He's
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: like the reverse racism, you know, literally yeah, and like
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a false equivalent. I mean, we
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: don't have to explain why it's wrong, but it is
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: like a false equivalency. Right. Like black exploitation films were
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: created as like a political statement to combat the eraser
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: of black people from films, Tim Burton's movies are not
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: a political statement to provide more whiteness into the culture,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: right he What he's trying to say, I think is
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that this is his aesthetic. Right. Aesthetic is a word
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: that comes up a lot and describing the whiteness of
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: his film. And because this is what he's comfortable in,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: He's saying, this is the world that I live in,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: which is honestly, Like if he wants to say this
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: is the world that I live in, which I don't think.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he said that, but like, this
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: is the world that I want to live in. This
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: is the world that I do live in. It's clearly
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the world that he sees, the world he's imagined. It
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: is clearly his perfect world. Yes, that's what you do
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: as a director is create this like idealized version of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: the world to make your little stories in. Yes. And
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: it's like your films are not reclamation of white culture.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Your films are like retention of white comfort, right like
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: you are if you're saying this is the real world
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: you live in, what you are telling us is that
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: you don't have any friends of color or like queer friends.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I mean, I was watching
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: the end of um Sleepy Hollow, which you were asleep
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: during last night, and Christina Ricci's character, who's supposed to be,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: you know, so pure, but she is so white, she's
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: glowing and per lessons. You know, he loves she she is.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: It's just so clear what he considers to be, you know,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: the um, the archetype, the ideal version of woman of
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: womanhood of white womanhood, of whiteness, of just what it
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: is to be a person. Look at like the self
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: insert he puts in all of his movies, which is
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: Johnny Depp, who is like the whitest man possible. Yeah,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: and and I and hit and almost like a a
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: perversion of whiteness, right, Like, because there are reports that
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Johnny Depp's Willy Wonka was inspired by Michael Jackson. Have
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: you heard this? Um? No, but that makes sense. It
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: makes too much gross. It's really gross, but also feels
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: in the line of what we were saying earlier about
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: like childhood corruption, like things like that. It's like why
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: it's like something that timber and keeps like latching onto
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know. And then we um, there's the oggy
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: boggie of it all. You were reading about last night,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: something I had you were describing to me. I had
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: never heard about that, like oggie boogie was essentially like
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: a slur used to describe jazz musician Cab Callaway, and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: that the ugg boogie man is kind of a a
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Cab Calloway reference. Right. He's a very he's a very racist. Um.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: You know. Caricature, Yeah, caricature and I think that it's
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: I think that him and then Samuel L. Jackson in Um,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: the Miss Peregrine's Like Orphanage whatever the funk movie that was,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: are the only two black people to have ever had
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: roles in a Timberton film, which is not great, but
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: it does have a great Florence and the machine song
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: on the soundtrack. Oh does it really? Um? I okay,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: so like I on it. But anyways, you know, I
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: don't want to harp on like the timber and main
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: problematic of it all because we've heard it all before.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: But I do think that his failure to see, truly
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: see the world around him is part of the reason
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: he's no longer relevant as a creator, Like he truly
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: has not made anything relevant since Charlie and the Chalk Factory.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: I think because I think Alice in the wonder Alice
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: in Wonderland, where I think it is his highest grossest
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: grossing film, was a critical flop, right or like, at
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: the very least all of his stands did not like it. Yeah.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: I think kind of what the thing is is that
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: now we live in a world old, we live in
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: a post tim Burton world where there are a lot
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: of creators who were influenced by him and went on
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: to make things in the same kind of you know,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: aesthetic vain or with the same tone, but they were
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: people of color, queer people who created their work with
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion in mind because that was their worldview.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: So now we we don't need this one man in
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: his singular vision because the vision is kind of outdated,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: and the next generation of people that who he inspired,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: who like they definitely owe a debt to Um, are
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: making the work that he just never could make, and
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: they're doing it better, doing it better than he is currently. Yes,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: exactly in that same vein of what you were just
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: talking about, Um, Jordan Peel's making this kind of Tim
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Burton esque claimation called Wendel and wild Um that I
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: think is going to be a part of this legacy
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: of creators that you're talking about about. It there's there's
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: a trans character who's played by a transactor in it.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Oh cool, that's awesome. And I also know that like this,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: I think this Wednesday series honestly, even though Tim Burton
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: is a part of it, um, he's not like the
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: person behind it, am I right about? Yeah, it's kind
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: of like a Tim Burton presents. Yeah, but it's an
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: all Latin story, so I'll be interested to see, you know,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: how far that's get that gets pushed and if this
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: is something that is you know, inspired by timber and
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: but not like created by Tim Burton. Um, but I'm
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: probably He's probably the executive producer, so I'm sure his
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: handprints are all over it stylistically, especially because it seems
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: like it's more in the y A genre space. Um,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: it'll be pretty you know, diverse YEA and inclusive. And
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: the trailer looks good. It looks like, Yeah, it looks fun.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to watch it. Yeah. Um. I like Jenna Ortiga,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: who is in literally everything, Wait, what else is she in?
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: She was in the Babysitter movie, she was in the
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: New Scream, she was in X, she was in the
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: second season of You. She's just popping up everywhere. But
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: this is her first big starring role. Should we talk
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: about like our Timber and Blind spots, like the movies
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: we haven't seen, like just to like acknowledge for the
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: versions that we like we haven't seen Edwood, which we
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: haven't seen Edward, one of us more critically acclaimed movies.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Question Mark. I think it's one of his more serious movies.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Sara Jessica Parker's in it, I believe what. And she's
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: also in Mars Attacks, which I love. She she's in
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Mars Attacks. In Mars Attacks and she gets her head
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: put on a dog's body. Oh my god, I've seen
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: that on the cover of Mars Attacks. Her head is
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: like literally on the covers. I have like an imprinted
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: memory of being in Blackbuster. I think other than those
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: and big guys, I've seen everything you've we haven't seen that.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen Frank and Weene or Dumbo. No, yeah,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen Dumbo Dumbo, or you've seen Miss Peregrine's
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: Home for a Peculiar Children. Yeah, what was that like?
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: I don't really remember. I'm sure Eva Green was great
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: because Ava Green is great and everything. She's so fun.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: In Dark Shadows, Um, Chloe Grace Morette is a werewolf
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: in it. That's all I need to know. Have you
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: seen her carry? I have with Julianne Moore. I think
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: it would maybe ruined carry for me. You wouldn't. You
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: wouldn't like it because maybe a traditionalist. But for our
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Stephen King episode, it's good. I think you have you
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: seen the original carry Okay, so you can't talk to
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: me about that. We we've never have you ever seen
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: Planet of the Apes? No, I've never seen Planet of
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: the Apes. But you know what, I have seen a
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: lot of Jack Skellington Sally porn. Oh my god, why
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: I wonder if there's Jack Skellington gay porn. Let's see,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: there has to be, Okay, Jack Skellington getting sucked by
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Uggie Boogie. Oh no, Jack Skellington. Okay, there's he's Oh
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: look look at the hot Jack O lantern. Wow, his
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: dick is huge. That's very hot. There's Jack Skellington. I
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: think he's with the slender Man. He's fucking the slender Man.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: Who's the slender Man? It's an urban legend. Oh, here's
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: one where he's got Santa tied up and is tickling
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: his feet. Oh my god, sort of non consensually, but
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: also Santa seems to be into Maybe the non consensual
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: part is part of the kank um. Oh yeah, there's
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: just a lot of Jack and Sally porn. Oh, and
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: then here's thick Jack Skellington. I like that. I'm into it.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: What fuck. We'll be back next week with two episodes,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: you know, continuing our October double Slam weekly um whatever,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Double penetration UM. On Tuesday we have a special episode
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: all about the Rocky Horror Picture Show, and then on
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Thursday an episode devoted to the Master of Murder Mystery Mayhem,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: Stephen King herself. So, um, tell us what your favorite
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Tim Burton movie is or if you have any hot
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: takes about him. Tell us what you're being for Halloween.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: Tag us and all your spooky content. You can leave
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating on Spotify.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: It really helps us a lot. I am your co
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: host Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere on
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: social at Rose Damn You. And I'm Fran Toronto. You
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: can find me at Frands Squish Co anywhere you want.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: Also d m us at Like a Virgin nine. You
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen. Like
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: a Virgin is an I Heeart radio production our producers
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Crane Chitch and Nikki Eatur. Until next week. This is Halloween,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: This Halloween, Oh my god, Okay, we have to go.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: That is this is Halloween.