Latest / Eurasia Region Podcast / Regional Conference 2025 - Dr. Carla Sunberg | Secularism

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Regional Conference 2025 - Dr. Carla Sunberg | Secularism · Eurasia Region Podcast

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Welcome to the Eurasia Region Podcast channel.
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In this podcast episode, you can listen to the sermon from
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General Superintendent Dr. Carla Sunberg.
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The sermon took place at the Eurasia Regional Conference 2025
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in Albania. Dr. Sunberg spoke about the team
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secularism. I have been reading about
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secularism then for about four months, trying to prepare for
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this day. I even tried to pick up and read
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a book by a man named Charles Taylor on a Secular age.
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Yeah, it's almost 900 pages long, but I've been trying to
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slog through all of that, to think about this.
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But to be honest with you, all the way along, I had to begin to
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wrestle with it, what it means for us to truly understand
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secularism or this secular age in which we live.
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And I think in many ways secularism and probably the
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reason we have the topic is because it's very significant to
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this region. You see, I think this is a place
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where we grapple with being in a post Christian world and in a
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post colonial world. And all of that kind of comes
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together in the Eurasia region. So a little over years, a year
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ago, I was in Frankfurt and I was with Tanya Baum and her
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family. There's Frankfurt saying, yes,
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hello, there you are. All right.
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So I'm with Tanya Baum and their family and we're sightseeing
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around Frankfurt, having a good time.
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And they said, let's try to get into.
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Is it called the Kaisers Hall? Yeah.
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And so and so it, it's not always open.
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So we went there and we went into this Kaiser's Hall.
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And you go in there and there's this this picture I took there
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because there are this on the wall are the pictures of all of
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the rulers from the Holy Roman Empire.
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I mean, it's like picture it starts with Charlemagne and it
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goes all the way through. And I'm looking at this and I
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tell you, this is a picture of Christendom, the Holy Roman
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Empire that helped to rule this part of the world for so long.
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And, you know, kind of taking upon themselves this idea of
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church and state united together and eventually calling
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themselves the Kaiser, which is the German name for Caesar.
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Wow. But that's all done with.
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That's not what runs this part of the world anymore.
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So in the same way, let me then go to the East, because when
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Christianity fell in Constantinople, there was this
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Eastern movement of Christianity in the East.
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And it moves up to Kiev. And Kiev is where Christianity
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first comes to the Kiev and Rusin Empire.
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And it's this incredible experience when actually all the
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people of Kiev are taken down a road that today is called the
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road of baptism, Christianic. And they take them down and they
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baptize them into the Deneba River.
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And that part of the world says now we are Christian.
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Now eventually Constantinople, today's modern day Istanbul,
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falls and that whole Kiev and Rusin empire up to the north,
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you end up with this symbol, the symbol of what becomes the
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Russian Empire. And they call themselves the
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Third Rome and they unite together, Christianity and the
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powers that be. So the Patriarch and the Czar
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rule together. And did you know that the word
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Czar just happens to be the Russian word for Caesar?
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So they've taken all of that power and they've consolidated
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all of that together. And yet this ruling together of
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church and state in that part of the world, that doesn't happen
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anymore. The world has changed.
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Now, there are other parts of this region that became a part
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of the Ottoman Empire, and Islam became the church and the state.
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And I have this picture of the beautiful Hagia Sophia from
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Istanbul, Constantinople. But after the city of
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Constantinople falls, they take the beautiful church that it's
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symbolized all of Christianity, and it's turned into a mosque,
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and it just becomes a part of the Ottoman Empire.
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However, the Ottoman Empire doesn't stand anymore either,
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does it? And then I think about all of
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the religions that we find in South Asia, looking across South
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Asia. I brought a couple pictures from
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there as well, the fascinating religions that have drawn people
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in through the years and how that religion has helped to
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shape the people. And then I've got one more from
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another country. All of these have shaped us.
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And yet when we gather here today for this conference, I
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have to tell you, and you know it, that we are living in a
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season of change. And according to Taylor, that
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big book that I read, it's really not so simple to explain.
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And just even trying to explain it about this region, you
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understand that's not easy to explain.
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It's not that we were once a people that were on a religious
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journey and now we have said no, we're no longer on a religious
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journey and we are now just secular people in this world,
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rather the people of this world, and that includes all of us.
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We are on a journey as we are trying to find our way, and the
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path is often unclear. And the path for you and me and
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for the world, it's like we're living in a fog or we're living
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in a mist of transition. We have these vestiges of the
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past mingling with a secular present, a world that has said
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we don't want all those religious things of the past.
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And so we live with the secular present, but we're actually
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still moving. We're not static.
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We're not just living in a world of secular versus religious.
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We're actually moving through this fog and we're moving into
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something that we're not really quite sure what it is.
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It's not need, it's not tidy, It's not an either or, but it is
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an invitation. It's an invitation that I would
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suggest invites us into hospitality, into holiness, and
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into what I say is the transcendent life of Christ,
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this incredible Jesus that you and I follow.
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So I want to take us to a passage of Scripture this
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morning. It's in Luke chapter 16
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beginning with verse one and I'm right there with Jim Ritchie.
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I've been pulling out my Bible lately because I am far too
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tempted. When I am on my phone it goes
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off all the time and I just have said I'm going back to paper and
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I think it's a good thing. But I want us to go to Luke
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chapter 16, beginning with verse one, and it's the parable of the
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dishonest manager. Then Jesus said to the
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disciples, there was a rich man who had a manager, and charges
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were brought to him that this man was squandering his
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property. So he summoned him and he said
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to him, what is this that I hear about you?
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Give me an accounting of your management because you cannot be
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my manager any longer. Then the manager said to
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himself, what will I do now that my master is taking the position
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away from me? I am not strong enough to dig
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and I am ashamed to beg. I have decided what to I have
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decided what to do so that when I am dismissed as a manager,
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people may welcome me into their homes.
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So summoning his master's debtors 1 by 1, he asked the
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1st, How much do you owe my master?
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He answered, 100 jugs of oil. He said to him, take your bill,
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sit down quickly, make it 50. Then he asked another, how much
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do you owe? He replied, 100 containers of
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wheat. He said to him, take your bill,
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make it 80. And his master commended the
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dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly.
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For the children of this age are more shrewd in dealing with
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their own generation than are the children of light.
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And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest
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wealth, so that when it is gone they may welcome you into their
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eternal homes. This is the word of God for the
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people of God. And we say, thanks be to God.
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Now you might say, Carla, really thanks be to God for that
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passage of Scripture. I read that and you're thinking
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she's crazy. We're not blessed by this
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passage of Scripture. I mean, this is the story of a
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dishonest manager that's caught misusing his master's wealth and
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he takes that wealth and he secures his own future with it.
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Well, you see, I believe that Jesus was thinking this.
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He said the children of this age are more shrewd in dealing with
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their own generation than are the children of light.
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So let me just suggest to you right here, the people of this
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world know how to deal with the people of this world.
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They're more shrewd at doing that than you and I.
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We are children of light. But do you understand that this
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issue of secular versus the religious, it already existed in
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the 1st century. We thought this was something
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new. We thought this was something
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new that we were having to deal with.
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And Jesus says, no, it's not. It's always been this way.
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Don't you understand it? And the way he wants you to
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understand it is to go back and realize that.
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Get this. This is really, really like
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scientific. Luke 16 comes right after Luke
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15. That's profound, isn't it?
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But Luke chapter 15, what's in Luke chapter 15?
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We all want to preach on Luke chapter 15, man.
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We want to preach about the lost sheep.
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We want to preach about the lost coin.
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We want to preach about the lost son.
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Hey, those are awesome. And then somebody puts in a
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chapter break for Luke chapter 16 and we think it's a whole
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different story. But what if the story of the
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shrewd manager is intentionally right after the story of the
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prodigal son? So I just want you to think
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about this. It seems like it's an odd
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comparison, but placed alongside the story of the prodigal son,
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this parable that I just read to you is almost Jesus sharing his
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sense of humor. He says this is what happens to
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someone who does not truly repent.
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You see, the prodigal son, he repents, he comes home, the lost
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son, he acts with true repentance.
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But this gentleman, which one commentator calls a roguish
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jester, and I apologize to the translators, but he is almost
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like a joker. He's like a funny man.
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He comes on the scene and he doesn't repent.
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He actually sort of has this anti repentance and he compounds
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his sin with even greater tricks.
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That's what he does. So the contrast is striking.
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The prodigal son is aware of his broken relationship with the
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father, and he comes and he humbles himself and he repents
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and he comes home. His relationship is restored, he
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is safe and he is secure in his father's house.
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But the dishonest manager comes to his senses and he doesn't
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repent. He merely finds a clever way to
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get out of trouble. And his master ends up saying,
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wow, he's really good, he's shrewd, he's dishonest.
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Now what? Master praises us for being
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shrewd and dishonest? It's Satan.
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It's the enemy. The enemy is the master who
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wants to come along and go. Wow, you figured that out really
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well. You figured out how to be safe
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and secure by figuring out the numbers.
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You changed all of that. And he praises him.
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But notice that's a master in that story.
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He is not a father. The enemy does not care.
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He rewards for evil and for cunning, deceit, and the manager
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is not forgiven. But he has made friends.
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And Jesus's irony cuts deep. These dishonest friends, He says
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maybe they will welcome you into their eternal homes.
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But do you understand it's a joke?
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What eternal homes do those friends have?
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They have none, but when we are invited and come back home and
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repent, and we come to the home of the Father, we have a home
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forever. You see, the shrewd manager of
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this world, He figured out how to survive in this world, but
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there was no eternal gain. So Jesus is warning the
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disciples and I believe He warns us.
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He says we are going to see this kind of spiritual game playing
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among people of this world. And the reality is that even in
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the church, there will be people who will play spiritual games.
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They will try to figure things out by their own skill and their
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own ability because they actually are children of the
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age. They appear or attempt to appear
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righteous without having genuine repentance.
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It's a kind of false faith that wins approval in the world but
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not in heaven. And I just want to challenge us
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a minute. I think that we are all tempted
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to buy into the secular age because both the prodigal and
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the manager, they lived in the same world.
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They lived in the same world and they both had opportunities, but
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one chose the relationship with the father and the other chose a
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relationship with the system. And for most people, the secular
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world is the only one they know now.
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Secularism is a world of materialism.
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This is the beautiful palace up in Saint Petersburg.
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It looks a little bit like Versailles.
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They made it to look like Versailles.
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But secularism is a world of materialism.
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We want to judge everything by what I can see, what I can feel,
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what I can taste, what I can hear.
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It is the world of the material. It is about what can I gain in
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this world? Charles Taylor argues that while
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secularism claims to be non religious, it is actually its
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own religion. It has its own faith.
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It is that of secular humanism, and it enthroned us on the
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throne. Self becomes on the throne.
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You become your own God. You make your own rules, and you
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no longer need to repent, and you seek for the material things
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of this world. Now Jesus warns us that it's
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easy to fool yourself with false repentance.
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The world may applaud your behavior, but heaven does not.
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This is a picture of Judas giving up Jesus for 30 pieces of
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silver. He gained the material, but he
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lost the eternal. You see, the world might applaud
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you for doing that 30 pieces of silver.
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That's awesome. But heaven doesn't rejoice.
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Heaven rejoices, we're told in Luke 15 when 1 Sinner repents.
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Dishonest friends cannot welcome you into their eternal homes.
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They don't have any eternal homes.
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They will only value you as long as you have something to give.
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And the secular age tempts us to think that doing good works is
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the same as participating in the eternal.
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So let me step on some toes here just a minute, because
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participating in good works is wonderful, but it does not
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replace the need for repentance and salvation.
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There are many good causes out there these days.
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It's so easy. I want to get involved.
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I want to volunteer, I want to support, to bring about change.
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I'm going to go March. I'm going to carry banners,
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whatever. We can get involved in all of
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those things, and folks, even Nazarene Compassionate
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Ministries that we love dearly and we've heard so much about
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last night talk about it today is doing such wonderful things.
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However, change simply for the sake of change is nothing
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without Jesus. And that's the point that I
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think Jesus was trying to make. There's a difference between
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temporal impact and eternal transformation.
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Let me say that one more time. Do you understand there is a
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difference between temporal impact and eternal
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transformation? Oh, but it's so easy for us.
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It's easy for us to fall into this trap.
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But let me just remind you this this world does not have eternal
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homes. Only the Heavenly Father can
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provide that home for us. Real change is what Jesus does
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in our lives. And here's the irony.
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Because the world would like to say this is real.
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This is real that that I can touch, that that I can feel.
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That's real. And that's the lie.
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Because real change only comes through Jesus.
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He's the one. Amen.
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Thanks be to God. Well, this is what leads us as
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God's followers back into the fog.
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Or I might call it the Gray mist.
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Oh, I don't want to be drawn into that secular age.
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And we here are the church. And we're all probably thinking
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we're the church. We're being really good.
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We're the religious ones. That's the secular world.
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It's out there. We are doing OK.
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However, I'm going to ask you this question.
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When's the last time you preached on repentance?
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Real repentance? Pastors, are you preaching self
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help and cultural advice? Have we stopped standing in the
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place of Jesus Christ and instead become managers of
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morality? I think universalism has crept
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into the life of the church, this idea that everyone will
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somehow work out this whole deal.
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Oh, how we love the parables of Luke chapter 15.
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We want to preach on them, but are we living in Luke chapter
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16? Now, if you've been around me
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much this past year and I've been to your district
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assemblies, you've heard me quote Doctor Phineas Brzee.
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And so I can't do a message without preaching about centers
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of holy fire. So here we go.
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Here's this passage. Doctor Buzi would say Christ in
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us with the Holy Spirit anointing to work in and through
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us. His message is the great need of
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the hour. It is our business primarily to
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get heaven opened and the divine glory down and mighty
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supernatural power. We must have people on fire with
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the Holy Spirit and make and keep centers of holy fire
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wherever we go. It can be done, for there is
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enough holy fire in heaven. Amen.
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Thanks be to God. Do you believe that today?
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Amen. Now I'm going to just tell you
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something. Since working on this message,
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which has been for months, I have struggled over the phrase,
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it is our business primarily to get heaven opened and the divine
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glory down in mighty supernatural power.
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And I've thought about this. What does that look like for us
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as Nazarenes to get heaven opened and the divine glory
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down? And mighty supernatural power?
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Specifically, I've wondered about this mighty supernatural
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power. I recently preached about this
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at a district assembly in America.
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And afterwards I had an elderly gentleman come up to me and he
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says, I'm not sure that most of our young preachers have ever
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heard about the mighty supernatural power of God's Holy
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Spirit. And Joel preached the mini
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sermon this morning and I would have just said Ditto.
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And I challenge all of you pastors here.
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Are you praying and preaching about the mighty supernatural
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power of the Holy Spirit? Or have we stopped talking about
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the divine? Have we stopped talking about
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the supernatural now? Both Brizzy and John Wesley both
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deeply believed in the supernatural power of God to
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transform lives. I mean, I went back and I
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looked, and John Wesley, he even preached about angels.
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He preached about spiritual warfare.
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He talked about Satan and taking demons seriously as real
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personal agents of temptation and affliction.
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He told us that our response to this in the spiritual realm was
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to read scripture, to pray, and to live a holy life.
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But here's where I've struggled. Phineas Brzee said this over 100
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years ago. And in the last 100 years, the
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secular has influenced the whole world.
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And as the secular has influenced the whole world,
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we've gotten to the point where we describe the supernatural in
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the real ways of the world. Well, that wasn't demon
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possession, That was mental illness.
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That wasn't the power of the Holy Spirit.
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That was something else that happened that day.
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And we as the church, I believe, have allowed secularism to
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actually influence us. And where Phineas Brzee 100
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years ago was talking about the power of the Holy Spirit
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transforming the church, instead we're talking about the world.
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And this is where we church need to come out of this mist and we
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need to realize that we were birthed in a movement that
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believed in the supernatural power of God's Holy Spirit.
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And maybe we need to recognize that we have been far too
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influenced by the secular and we think we're the holy people, not
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influenced by them, but they are coming right in here and
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speaking to us. You see, we are to get heaven
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opened and the divine glory down.
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Paul said our battle is not against flesh and blood.
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And this mist or the fog that we fight against is often not out
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there, but it's within ourselves.
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So Charles Taylor talks about this.
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He says the focus of people's lives have changed.
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Those who focus on the spiritual are focused on the vertical.
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They're focused on looking up to God.
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There are lives. And in the past, everything used
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to be defined in terms of a relationship with the holy God.
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Everything was about the divine looking upwards.
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But he says here's what's happened in this world.
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He said we have become a horizontal people and now we're
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more concerned about our friends.
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And I like my friends. Diego, I have a picture of you.
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I hope you're seeing this, Diego.
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Is he even in here? If he's not in here, he's in
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trouble. Oh, there.
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He he walked in the back door. OK.
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All right. So this is the horizontal.
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We're worried about our friends, and we're worried about having a
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good time. Now, this is in Paris, and you
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have to know. Yes, Brian wanted to see it.
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Take us to the beautiful arch right there.
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And the problem was the temptation of the friends was to
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go to the other arch right over here.
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That was McDonald's. I'm sorry.
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And he said in Paris, you cannot go to McDonald's.
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Do you go to McDonald's? They go to McDonald's.
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Brian, you have to know. But here's the deal.
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When we embrace just the horizontal, the horizontal alone
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does not provide eternal satisfaction.
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And our world is again hungry for this.
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Our world is hungry for a word we use transcendence.
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It's it's focusing on this incredible majesty and glory of
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God. I have recently reconnected with
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one of my friends that I grew up with in America after I moved
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there. She lived across the street from
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me where my dad was a pastor. She went to the Nazarene church.
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Her father was a professor at a Nazarene university.
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She went to a Christian high school.
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But she has completely walked away from her faith.
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As a matter of fact, she has recently published an entire
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series of articles on why I left evangelicalism.
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And I read her pieces and it broke my heart because here's
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the deal. The church failed my friend,
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because everything that she wrote about was about the
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horizontal. She wrote about the legalism of
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the church. She wrote about the pressure to
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behave in particular ways. But never once did she ever
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mention that the church introduced her to Jesus.
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Never once. And church, Here's my question.
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We can't just live on the horizontal.
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We have to live on the vertical. And the story of my friend is
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repeated across our world. People are spiritually curious
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today. They want to have this.
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They want to know about this incredible God.
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They are disillusioned and they are weary of constant
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connectivity. They are tired of trying to be
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relative. They are ain't full of anxiety
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and they are disillusioned. Now the way forward for us is
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the church is not to go backwards to Christendom or any
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of those other things, but the way forward is toward our
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renewed participation in the divine life and the life of the
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transcendent God who is also near.
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It's in God's beauty that we rediscover a truth that cannot
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be deconstructed, a beauty that cannot be commodified, and a
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love that cannot be earned. This is not a relic, A premodern
30:24
theology, but it is a radical alternative to a culture of self
30:29
absorption. And specifically, it is the
30:32
mystery of divine otherness where we discovered.
30:35
Be still and know that I am God. Be still my friends, and know
30:47
that he is God. Well, now I'm going to mess
30:54
James Clarkson up because I'm not going to stick with my
30:56
notes, James. But here's the deal folks.
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Why did Brzee say what he said? We need to get heaven opened and
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I believe that we need to revisit our relationship with
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the divine. We need to get heaven opened and
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that divine power down and here it is.
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We need to be centers of holy fire, and the centers of holy
31:29
fire are communities where heavens reality is visible on
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earth. Do you understand that this
31:37
vision is not about mysticism detached from mission, but about
31:41
heaven touching earth, intangible holiness.
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It has to do with our compassion.
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It has to do with renewal. It has heaven coming down.
31:51
We have to get heaven open and divine glory down.
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How are we going to do it? First of all, we're going to do
31:56
it through our worship. Our worship folks has to be
32:00
vertical. It has to be about God.
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Second of all, pastors, you're preaching.
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It has to be divinely anointed. Divinely anointed preaching by
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the power of the Holy Spirit. How does that happen?
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It doesn't just happen automatically.
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Phineas Brzee, they said he would spend his Saturdays in
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prayer, and his Saturdays in prayer are what impacted his
32:22
preaching on Sunday. It wasn't that he was such a
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fabulous preacher. It had to do with the presence
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of what's Holy Spirit in his preaching.
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We need to have this relationship, right, pastors?
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It's much more important than all the study and everything you
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do around here. Heaven has to get open.
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His Holy Spirit needs to be pouring through you.
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And then churches, churches, we need to be filled with the Holy
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Spirit and we need to be the centers of holy fire.
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Oh, we can be participants in good works.
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But let me tell you something. When we participate in His good
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work, something amazing happens. And then I love this because we
33:05
are challenged to divine imagination because it says
33:09
there's enough holy fire in heaven.
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And this, folks, is the difference between us being the
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shrewd manager and I have been in your place.
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We have been in your place. We have served here.
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And so many of us, we're living as the shrewd managers because
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we get a budget, OK, this is how much we can do.
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Let me figure it all out. And so we live in this economy
33:37
of the secular. This is how much ministry we can
33:41
do. This is how much money we have.
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This is the world we're going to live in, and we are living in
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the world's economy. And God says there's enough holy
33:50
fire in heaven that he can do more than we could ever even
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imagine. We've got to get this right.
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Heaven opened the divine glory down, and the fire comes.
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And our churches and our communities, we have to be
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centers of holy fire, people filled with the Holy Spirit.
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Yes. And then we go out and we touch
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our world for Jesus, and we get engaged in compassionate
34:13
ministries, and we do our reconciliation and we help the
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migrants and all of that. But we do it empowered by God's
34:20
Holy Spirit. That's what he wants from us.
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That's what makes us different from the secular world.
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Oh, my friends, are we living in the secular or have we moved
34:35
into the divine? I think it's time for us to
34:39
check ourselves and where are we living?
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The band's going to come up and they're going to sing the song I
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Speak Jesus. Oh, this is the reconnection
34:53
with the divine. This is where we must be.
34:57
We can never be centers of holy fire unless we are connected
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with the divine. When I started out today, I
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said, what is the Church of the Nazarene?
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We're a family. We are a family.
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But you know why we're a family? Because we're a bunch of centers
35:15
of holy fire. We are holy fire families
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empowered by the Holy Spirit with divine imagination, and
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there's enough holy fire in heaven to do exceedingly,
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abundantly more beyond anything we could ever ask or imagine.
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Let's stand together. And as we sing, let's speak
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Jesus to this world. But I also challenge you, if you
35:52
have been embracing the secular in more ways than you could
35:56
imagine, can you let go today? Can you let go and let's just
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seek and speak Jesus? Till everyday addiction starts
37:08
to break the glory in. There is hope and there is
37:15
freedom, as will Jesus. Your name is power.
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Your name is feeling. Your name is light.
37:36
Break. Every stronghold shine through
37:40
the shadows, the light of the wild.
37:51
I just want to speak the name of Jesus.
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Warmer feet and all. Exciting to every soul.
38:04
Heaven come define oppression. Gods with Jesus.
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Your name is power, Your name is healing, Your name is strong.
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Let me live, let them restore. Shine to the shine.
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Your name is Power. Your name is Power.
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Your name is Healy. Your day is light.
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Your name is Light. Bring every storm home.
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Shine to shine. Shine these.
39:08
Shout Jesus from the mountain, Jesus in the street, Jesus in
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the dark, sober every air to me, Jesus, Jesus for my family.
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I speak the holy name Jesus. Show this, this Jesus shouting
39:35
through the mall pay Jesus in the free Yeah, Jesus in the time
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swover everywhere. Oh Jesus in Jesus for my family.
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I speak the holy name, Jesus. Your name is Power.
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Power. Your name is Power.
40:05
Your name is sealing. Your day is light.
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Yes, it is breaking the storm. Lord, shine through that shine.
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Lord, we're light and light. My name is Power.
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Jesus, we speak your name. That's the only name that we can
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speak. Lord, may our eyes be turned to
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Jesus and only Jesus. Lord, we ask forgiveness now.
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We ask forgiveness for all the times that we have bought into
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the systems of this world where we have put the vertical first,
42:02
where we have sought man's approval, where we have sought
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for the manager to say, wow, you're great, you're shrewd,
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you're wonderful. You're this.
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Forgive us for that, Lord. Lord, turn our eyes to you.
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May we seek your voice. May we seek to hear you say that
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we are your beloved. Humble our hearts, Lord.
42:35
Humble us, Lord, so that all there is is Jesus.
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That's all we want. We want Jesus, we want to know
42:44
your resurrection power. We want, we want heaven to open
42:51
up God and to feel your power, your power of love, your power
42:59
that can break all these chains that can can burst into the
43:03
darkness, into this Gray mist to it have people confused.
43:10
Lord, may your power be in us that we can be the hope of this
43:14
generation, that we can be the beacon that draws them to you.
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Break what needs to be broken, God in our lives, in our hearts,
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break what needs to be broken. So there's only you.
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Thank you, Jesus, thank you for your love.
43:39
Thank you for using US broken people to be that power.
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And I just pray, I pray that your Holy Spirit, your breath of
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life will be so real to every person that is here that there
43:59
is no way that anybody can look in their face and say that they
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can't say we know Jesus, that they will see our face and say
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they know something, they know Jesus, they know Jesus.
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Thank you, God, thank you for your power.
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Thank you for using US. We love you, Lord, Amen.
44:30
Thank you for listening to the Eurasia Region Podcast.
44:33
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44:35
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44:40
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44:43
Eurasia Region, go to our website, eurasiaregion.org.