Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Posidonia, AI Hype and the Technologies Shipping Is Actually Buying

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Posidonia, AI Hype and the Technologies Shipping Is Actually Buying · UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show

• Raal: Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Undocked. quick hello this morning to our roving reporter, Nick Chubb. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Hello, Rao Harris. I am roving indeed. I'm so roving that I'm currently sat outside the Metropolitan Hall. ⁓ 'cause it's the only place quiet enough. I mean, I think in all of Athens to be able to record an episode. ⁓ which is a bit windy. We get in the odd plane overhead. and there's still a fair bit of conversation going on around us, but I think we'll ⁓ we'll make it work. Raal: Well, I for one am charmed by the view of you sat beneath an olive tree in your sunglasses. You are of course at Posidonia. Nick Chubb: Yeah, my other hop is simulation. It's it's about as ⁓ exactly. It's about as Posidonian as it gets, isn't it? All I'm missing is ⁓ is some sort of cocktail. is, is a great example and I know you were involved in it, ⁓ of something has been ⁓ an R D for a very long time. ⁓ with ⁓ maybe struggling get to the point where we see this stuff commercialized. ⁓ but the of simulation technologies I've seen on offer for training, I think has been absolutely, ⁓ fascinating and, ⁓ and slightly ⁓ Raal: Yeah, or some cheap white wine in your hand and a sort of pastry of some kind. My memories of Posidonia, anything to go by, several days of living on white wine and volvons. Nick Chubb: Give it an hour. I I have been inundated, by the way, with requests for your presence. There's a rumour going round that you've just been b banned from Greece. That's why ⁓ yeah, that's that's why you're not us. And actually how advanced these simulations are now. Earlier today, I was in a VR headset, around the deck of chemical tanker. And I managed to get one of our sales guys, Rob, on ⁓ to a go. And ⁓ he it's ⁓ like on a ship. ⁓ And never been on a ship before. So to be able to give him that experience was actually a really nice thing. Raal: Yeah. Banned from Greece, yeah. Deported, yeah. It's not my FOMO I keep getting messages with people saying, where are you? Are ⁓ you here yet? And that of stuff. I just had a phone call from someone who I said I wasn't going ⁓ to, who just said, what you doing? I just heard that you're walking the halls at Posidonia. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah, I bet. It's scary how realistic those VR simulators are. Raal: And ⁓ I'm there in a sort of ethereal form. I'm not there in a corporeal form, but my spirit is walking. Yeah, it does feel very strange not to be there, So this is the fidelity of the of the visuals, the physics, that kind of stuff. Nick Chubb: As a a phantom Harrow. ⁓ Yeah, exactly. And ⁓ not just VR, another ⁓ shout I would be to the UK Hydrographic Office. ⁓ I've seen a demo of their virtual port simulator, ⁓ which allows you it's a sort of complete simulation of a port approach ⁓ that is realistic the environment that it would sit in. And their intention is that would get used for things like entry familiarization. ⁓ know, if you've got a captain of a cruise ship who's going to do a port entry for the first time, you know, it's a new itinerary that never sailed there before. They can now run it on a simulation ⁓ is sort of totally realistic to the real world conditions, ⁓ realistic to the actual tidal conditions that get pulled down from kind of things like total tide. So they can near enough, you know, if you're doing it sort of Raal: I love it very much. ⁓ And it's sad not to be there. yeah, I do it this time. So how is it? is the event? Nick Chubb: I will I will have some oozo on your behalf. It is ⁓ it's busy today today. So we're recording this on a Wednesday, and I think that is the busy day. as evidenced by the fact I was 10 minutes late and getting onto this recording because ⁓ my last meeting finished all the way down the other end of a hall. ⁓ and it takes a long time to walk these halls. but it's certainly it's ⁓ yeah, there's there's just a a huge amount going on. Some really interesting stuff ⁓ I've seen. in 10 days time, and you can get a pretty reasonable idea of what the weather might be. You can have the correct tidal conditions for the port entry you're going to make, plus have what the forecast weather is for the port entry you're going to make. And you can basically do a 100 % safe practice run, get it wrong, ⁓ and kind of know what all your exit points are and all that sort of stuff. just thought it's absolutely, fascinating, but B, just quite incredible that this technology has moved on to the point in a fairly short space of time. there's just a a huge amount going on. Some really stuff I've seen. Across the stand. Across the stand. everyone is ⁓ their AI credentials. ⁓ near enough kind of half the software companies I've seen, and actually a whole bunch of sort of random services companies that I wouldn't have expected to have anything to do with AI seem to be talking about their AI products. ⁓ so ⁓ so that's been quite interesting. ⁓ there's definitely some some type around that in the market. Raal: Yeah. Nick Chubb: ⁓ as realistic as it is. Raal: Yeah, re really, really exciting. And and ⁓ I think that's one of the things that's coming a as a really strong theme looking at ⁓ the relevance of of training and getting a closer connection to the actual job that's gonna be performed, the relevance, let's say, of the of the to to the exact procedure that you wanna do and stuff. It sounds as though Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: Just on that point, because I've been asked about that. I've got to contribute to an article a bit later on. To what extent do you, do you feel that these are genuine AI solutions versus we have to have an AI story to tell? And so we've tacked on some what you're talking about there really does bring those two worlds together. You know, training directly connected to the work that you're you're going to be performing, which is it really interesting. Yeah. Just on the on the VR thing, one of the things noticed with VR is that you've got quite a big difference between let's say, more gamified kind of quest type experience where you're you're operating with a you know a VR headset. Nick Chubb: Yes. Raal: thing that can be nominally called AI, know, What's your feeling overall on those solutions you mentioned? Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: which is pretty much the computer, let's say, and the and the and the ⁓ the controllers, limited by the capacity of that as a as a system, ⁓ but with all the advantages of being super portable and and the price point being pretty affordable. Next to something that I've seen done by somebody like, say, Vartzilla, with a very advanced ship handling simulation that relies on VR, but that one's actually got Nick Chubb: My my issue is with with all of this is that anyone just gonna set up an API with Chat GPT or OpenAI or Anthropic or Gemini or or whatever else and kind of just build a little basic chat interface into their product and near enough say we're an AI company now. My my issue is with with all of this is that anyone ⁓ just gonna set up an API with Chat GPT or OpenAI or Anthropic or Gemini or or whatever else ⁓ and kind of just build a little basic chat interface into their product and near enough say we're an AI company now. Yeah. Raal: You know, it's actually got the the correct controllers, it's running off a a much ⁓ more powerful system that can really kind of deliver the the the true physics of the model and it's so it's effectively it's a VR headset connected into a proper simulator, let's say. What w when you're talking about that example there with the chemical tankers, where's that sitting? Nick Chubb: And I and I think that's quite dangerous. There's there's two things about that. One is actually it means that everyone who's talking about being an AI company is totally undifferentiated because everyone's suddenly doing it. ⁓ and then two is that actually when it's done badly, it it it creates more problems and annoyances than it's than it does create genuine solutions. And I and I think that's quite dangerous. There's there's two things about that. One is actually it means that everyone who's talking about being an AI company is totally undifferentiated because everyone's suddenly doing it. ⁓ and then two is that actually when it's done badly, I mean in my experience, when it's done badly, it it it creates more problems and annoyances than it's than it does create genuine solutions. Raal: Mm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Nick Chubb: Yeah. ⁓ there's kind of that's three things that I'm looking for ⁓ kind of this week. And actually I've seen ⁓ I've ⁓ is probably more of the former. ⁓ ⁓ Vartan are out here, I've actually had a chance to go and have a poke around their stand, but I will do that before I go and report back to you. I think ⁓ it comes to simulation, I think it's really important to understand what it is you're actually trying to simulate. We mentioned on the podcast a few weeks ago about prevention at sea. I was at their stand earlier today. They've done some really exciting stuff. and and I would say are kind of hitting hitting at least sort of two of the three things that that were kind of interesting to me. What one is that there is some level of ⁓ permanence to to kind of what's being done. So I I I kind of view generative AI as having ⁓ You know, if you're trying to simulate the use of the specific equipment on board and how to do that effectively, then you absolutely need a simulation that is going to provide that. If you're trying to simulate a stressful scenario that might test the team dynamics on a bridge, I'm not actually sure that it becomes that important to have, you know, the exact equipment on board the bridge that you would have in a real world scenario. And so I think there's probably levels to the game. you know, a a superhuman brain that has a twenty-four hour memory. And I think if you don't give it access to some kind of permanent level of data, ⁓ you you just end up going back to the beginning of the context window again and and just kind of losing all understanding. And and that's where all this, you know, these all these sort of strange illusions start happening. ⁓ being able to kind of index data in a way that allows you to kind of overcome the limitations of the context window and and and a bit like this podcast episode today, think sometimes done beats perfect. ⁓ we're definitely recording in less than, less than ideal conditions here. ⁓ and sometimes I think you can, you can run simulations very, very cheaply. There's a really interesting platform called Vasco. I don't know if you've seen it, ⁓ but they run simulations, simulations on, standard smartphones, you know, the kind of smartphone VR set up. ⁓ it's all cloud-based. Raal: Mmm. Ha ha. Nick Chubb: Doing it in a way that is obviously secure and well governed is something that I I I think we're starting to see. And I think that that's where this stuff gets really exciting. ⁓ and the prevention at sea example, ⁓ they've basically been able to take a vessel's SMS, ⁓ fully index, you know, what is normally quite a thick book of ⁓ of ⁓ of of content around the how how the the safety of the vessel is managed. ⁓ and they've been able to build that into their ⁓ into their compliance software. Raal: Maritime has become increasingly complex, multiple networks, rising data demands, and constant pressure on performance. KVH simplifies it. With hybrid connectivity across Starlink, OneWeb, VSAT, and LTE, all managed through the Combox Edge platform, you can bring everything into one intelligent system. Nick Chubb: everyone just connects to the internet ⁓ and you can have multiple people in the simulation and multiple vessels in the simulation. ⁓ Absolutely none of the equipment on board is kind of what you would find in the real world. It's not to that level of spec, but being able to kind of test the dynamics of how everyone works together in a stressful situation, you know, is as real as it's going to be in the real world. And so Raal: that means better uptime, smarter bandwidth allocation and full visibility across your fleet. No silos, no guesswork, just a network that works the way you need it to. Backed up by global support and flexible data plans, KVH helps you stay connected wherever you operate. Find out how at kvh.com. Nick Chubb: So that when there is a ⁓ an action that needs to be done, you might be going from an ⁓ open ocean to an e-curve, ⁓ an emissions and compliance area, ⁓ and you need to switch over fuels, it will actually query the SMS to find the right procedure to follow giving you a kind of AI answer. I thought that sort of stuff's really interesting. ⁓ second area is actually just kind of tool tool selection. I've seen that. So think it's really important to understand what you're testing for, or sorry, what you're training for, then finding the right kind of tool. And I think you can do a lot with a little, so that's for this stuff. Raal: I think I think you're a percent agree with everything you said. I think you you've hit the nail on the head. I was just gonna mention one of the most effective simulations I remember seeing in terms of the way which it got people into through the mental processes of dealing with an emergency was conducted entirely through text message, ⁓ SMS. So Nick Chubb: Various AI models are good at various things. ⁓ you know, I find Claude is incredible for advanced reasoning, but actually Chat GPT is is is much better at kind of quick quick fire questions and doing basic internet research. again, kind of coming back to this model of being able to swap in different ⁓ AI AI models to whatever your kind of permanent ⁓ set is. Really. Raal: the bar was really low in terms of the technology that you needed. This was this was probably thinking about it now, was probably 15 years ago, ⁓ and and this was this was done ⁓ i ⁓ in an emer it was like an emergency response type thing and people were receiving updates to situation by text and they were having to kind of coordinate ⁓ and respond and the stress levels were, you know, Nick Chubb: Wow. I think that's when that's starts to become really exciting because then you can do things like have models running locally on a on a device, ⁓ you know, using some of the open source LLMs, or if you're doing something really complex, then connect it to the internet and go and query it to Claude or or or whatever it may be. and then I I I think that the third area is actually building in governance around the people. Raal: really good as well. So yeah, and that that for me is a really important part of of creative thinking. How can you how can you get that impact that you want in terms of ⁓ in terms of kind of ⁓ testing people's decision making, how they react and all those sorts of deal with stress as you mentioned. ⁓ or it is you're testing, of course it depends entirely on what the the purpose as you say of the training is. ⁓ but yeah certainly I think we could make more of what we have. Nick Chubb: And the AI and kind of where the decisions get taken, what must not be done by AI, what can be done by actually putting some ⁓ clear guidance around that ⁓ into the into the software and how the software's built, I I think is kind what separates the ⁓ the AI wrapper solutions, if you like, to to those who are really kind of embracing the technology. My favorite low fidelity simulation is the ⁓ cyber risk management kind of tabletop exercises where the whole point is you've been cut off from all of your systems. And so usually the first thing you know someone says Raal: Yeah, think you're absolutely right. Seeing a of bit of a tiering, I suppose, developing around those that are really able to deal with that governance piece. Because I think as the knowledge is maturing in the customer base, I'm talking largely here in this context, it's mostly the bigger owners and big ship managers that sort of are leveraging these kind of solutions at scale. I think as they bring in Nick Chubb: You ask the CEO, you know, if there's a major cyber incident that takes down all of your systems, they'll say, well, the first thing I'll do is I'll call the CSO. And then you say, how are you going to call them? So there's their phone number. And then suddenly you find out it's saved on the CEO's phone and the CEO doesn't have access to their phone. And so actually, yeah, sometimes you need to be forced to go low tech to make the simulation available. Raal: experts into their team and raise their levels of maturity within the team. I think that the governance thing seems to be a really big major sort of topic. And as you'd expect, I mean, this is, you know, this is the bread and butter of shipping rights with compliance and all of that sort of stuff. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: Yeah, so just sort of changing changing tack slightly on the ⁓ from the sort of exhibition. So people if you've never been to Postonia, it's absolutely vast. It's one of the biggest ⁓ exhibitions you'll you'll ever see. But ⁓ what you're talking about is gigantic halls. It takes hours and hours and hours to walk around. You're not gonna see everything. But then there's also the sort of seminar side of it, which I think gets a little bit overlooked sometimes, but there's a number of small ⁓ seminar rooms and stuff ⁓ on site, and I think there's a conference hall as well. Have you have you indulged in any of those? But interesting what you said about ⁓ prevention at sea. Nick Chubb: You think about Bye. Raal: ⁓ when I saw saw was largely a, you know, a PowerPoint, largely sort of aspirational about connecting some of those ideas. Cause it seems like they are making flesh. Some of the things that we've talked about as being conceptual for the last couple of years, you and I talking about it and then talking about it in the last eight, 12 months on the podcast. ⁓ you know, Nick Chubb: I did. One I realized from attending the seminar yesterday ⁓ that ⁓ a list of jobs that will be safe from AI, air conditioning engineer is right up ⁓ The air conditioning broke. ⁓ let me tell you, it gets warm quick ⁓ there's no air conditioning in those rooms. Yeah. Raal: the what if and if this then that and the extrapolation of kind of directionally where we end up somewhere like this. think it's good that we're starting to see some of those sort of some of those kind of rifts, mental rifts that we've had sort of actually turning into product, is quite exciting. Ha ha ha. Nick Chubb: But they managed to get it fixed. that was actually, was a panel I was taking part in AI It was a really interesting session. essentially, if try kind of give the thrust of the two ship owners who were on the panel with me, they effectively said that, have to recognize now ⁓ whether we're allowing for or not, people are using these tools. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who who who knew that our mental rifts would turn into actual products? I I don't think either of us would have predicted that a year ago. Raal: ⁓ Ha Yeah, and this is not to infer that people are watching us and going, ⁓ that's a good idea for a product. It'd be lovely if they were. Yeah, it'd be lovely if they were. And if we could prove it and then get a check in the post, that'd be nice. Nick Chubb: ⁓ I know I'm taking credit. ⁓ And so we better actually go ahead and embrace it and find a way to make sure we can use them safely with the right governance, rather than it being the kind of the sort of dirty little secret that people are sneaking up to chat GPT to ask it questions during the workday and it not being something that's properly governed. So yeah, but it was a really, really interesting panel. Raal: But it does bring us to the question, I think, I've just been editing an episode that we've just done ⁓ with Stylianos from Lomar Labs. ⁓ will find that fascinating. I a lot of the people that you're talking to will be very happy to see that episode and to see how they are as a sort of an incubator as part of a ship owner. how they view innovation very good discussion about what is R &D and what is innovation. And I guess where the is drawn between we're funding something that ⁓ we're learning about an area and seeing what's there to actually something being turned into realistic viable money-making product. And and who who organized that session? Whose session was the AI governance one? Nick Chubb: That was actually prevention and seeing. That was was a ⁓ good, yeah, it a very good session. Raal: Well, I mean it it's you know, th when we talked earlier about sort of people nailing AI onto everything, I mean i you know, it it has become a bit of an obsession and ⁓ think it's irritating quite a lot of people that it that it's dominating the conversation as much as it as it is. But you know, I think one of the things that you you've gotta say is like all software providers are talking about AI, you know, is is that is that something to worry about? I I'd I'd probably be more worried about software providers that weren't talking about AI because ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah. Raal: When you look at the AI solutions that are out there are you getting a sense that there's a real commercial value proposition or are some of these just kind hey, that's kind of cool? Certainly if I if if I owned one of them because I don't think they'd be around for very long if they don't have at least some some sort of strategy around it. ⁓ and speaking about deals, I I did happen to see ⁓ something that I think is ⁓ worth we like to talk about ⁓ deal announcements. I did see a a deal announcement, ⁓ I think it might have been ⁓ yesterday. I think it went out on ⁓ Kaiko systems. ⁓ Keiko, you've you've done bits of work with Kaiko, I think, in the past, haven't you? Nick Chubb: ⁓ Raal: you know, is it, is this something that people will pay for? Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I know what you mean. I I see a lot of that kind of stuff. and and yeah, maybe 50% the time you go, ⁓ that's cool. I can totally see a ship owner paying for that. And then the other 50% of the time you just sort of think, ⁓ that's cool. ⁓ and you don't necessarily have the follow on thought. however, ⁓ one thing I will is, know, having Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, congratulations to Fabian ⁓ and the team at Kaiko and then and also to The team at Flagship Founders who kind of helped put Kaiko together. It's been acquired by Municy. Municy is a vertical SaaS software business that focuses on fleet management. And Kaiko, for anyone who doesn't know Kaiko, it is a, we would describe it these days as a kind AI workflow tool that helps you, helps crews on board to improve their maintenance planning and maintenance operations. done these kind of exhibitions for sort of 10 years or so is I don't necessarily see that the ⁓ the the 50% of the time when you when you don't necessarily know how that's going to turn into something commercial. Often it does it just takes a long time. There are things that you know we were maybe looking at sort of six, eight, ten years ago that I I I think no one would have imagined it actually becoming It started as simple as six years ago, it was a digital checklist on the phone. And so instead of taking a clipboard around the ship and ticking off, you that you've inspected a particular fire extinguisher or you've spotted a bit of rust on the deck or whatever it may be, they've moved that process onto a phone. Once they moved it onto a phone, they were able to standardize it across ships. And once they were able to standardize it, they had this big data set that they could use to then train AI and they've now become a kind of AI. live software today. And actually going back to that example, you know, going from the kind of SMS being a book to the SMS being a piece of software ⁓ that is interactive and live, ⁓ I I I think was kind of for the birds ten years ago. Whereas now the infrastructure exists across the industry to make that sort of thing default. and so yeah, I I just think sometimes innovation or research and development takes a far longer time horizon to turn into innovation. AI focused, you know, vessel maintenance But they are on about a thousand vessels ⁓ Unisey is on about 3000 vessels. So I imagine there will be some of cross-selling ⁓ from Unisey to Kaiko and possibly vice versa. than ⁓ than people expect. Raal: Yeah, it's not always apparent, is it? I mean, I think one of the things that again, it comes across in the episode, but it's something that you and I have talked about before as well, that shipping is very good at making do. once it's reached a position where it can make do, whether that's with a spreadsheet or whether, know, it's quite difficult to convince people that the additional spend is worth it and that the gains are real. They're doing they're doing that classic thing as all all people do when they smash businesses together like, we're on one thousand, they're on three thousand, so therefore it's four thousand vessels, whether whether whether or not there's a there might be some overlap, but they're they're quoting four thousand. ⁓ yeah, I interesting, yeah. I I think ⁓ for me, ⁓ Kai Kaika, when think about them, ⁓ I I I think they're also in the sort of decision support criteria, you know, in terms of ⁓ of of Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Must be four thousand. ⁓ Raal: And I think it's, know, and that's where proving our ROI can be very, very tricky indeed. And that's to your point. I think sometimes it takes a while for the problem to get so big that the make-do solution is no longer viable. And that can be when a company scales or it can be when, for example, the external factors become Nick Chubb: Yeah. Right. Raal: of of where they sit. And I find them very interesting from that point of view. They're kind of like ⁓ there's a bit of a crossover with them and another ⁓ company, NavGuide Solutions, who ⁓ sort of take a very similar approach to kind of taking people through the checklist. I think NavGuide a bit more focused on that as a learning activity and a kind of visual ⁓ sort of walkthroughs of how how to do the inspections. But they both ⁓ are in that territory appealing to the sort of usually the HSEQ team. Nick Chubb: ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Yep. Raal: bigger and bigger, maybe in terms of regulation, maybe in terms of disruption that we're seeing to sort of, you know, to routes, to workflows, to all that sort of stuff. yeah, there's a timing is everything in this. Nick Chubb: 100%. I I think if it can be done in a spreadsheet, my philosophy generally is just let let people do it in a spreadsheet. ⁓ but you know, if you look at the kind of early modeling around the UETS, for example, that absolutely could be done in a spreadsheet. You've actually probably triggered another one of my hots of hot or not. Raal: around sort of making sure that in that that inspections are are well taken. I think, am I right in thinking that this space kind of emerged a little bit out of COVID and out of the fact that remote inspections needed to sort of be taken taken place. I I've got a feeling that that may have been the the starting gun for this Nick Chubb: Now that we're in the position where there is ⁓ real time reporting and fees on the line each year, ⁓ I I think it the the ability of a spreadsheet to take all of the different kind of factors in to what your eventual ETS bill becomes, I I think it's it's now no longer kind of viable to to on a spreadsheet. And that's where the soft software providers should be looking to step in. But I think it's very, very easy to build stuff that is just unnecessary because it's just, you know, not I think remote inspections were obviously hot during COVID, right? Anyone who's doing class surveys, the default became, you know, we're near enough, run the class survey through Microsoft Teams. You can send us all the documentation and, you know, send us photos of everything that we asked for during the team session. And then we'll kind of stamp it off. And, you know, I think the flagstakes were kind of broadly happy that that was what was practically possible. And that kind of kicked off a wave of Raal: Ooh. Yeah. Nick Chubb: Not enough of a complex problem. Raal: just on that, ⁓ quick shout out for the episode that we did with Friederike Hess of ⁓ where actually really talk about that as a case study about ⁓ the at which through things like EU, ETS and FuelEU, software no longer becoming, ⁓ this is helping me be more efficient. It gets into basically the viability of managing it without it, but also ⁓ the upside. Nick Chubb: A lot of the class societies turning around and saying, yeah, okay, remote inspections the way forward. We're starting investing in drones and all this sort of stuff. And then it just sort of died a death for like, you know, 21, 22. It just stopped, you know, almost entirely. Everyone just went back to going physically on board the vessels. But now what I've started to see, actually particularly coming from Bureau of Erratas, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Raal: that you can have because of the trading and so on that you can do with your surplus in terms of the efficiency and the fuel choices that you make. So ⁓ episode to check out. And she makes a very good explanation how all that works. And just on that, ⁓ we've talking to quite a lot of ⁓ different and suppliers over the last few weeks. There's lots of episodes where we've talked about that. Posidonia typically a time where Nick Chubb: Yeah. interest in that space and actually renewed interest in making remote inspections ⁓ possible. ⁓ so I think that is an emerging trend that is worth paying attention to. Raal: Yeah. Well, not only worth paying attention to, but I I actually think that it's something that as an industry we really ought to be getting behind. And the reason that I say it is that if you actually think about ⁓ the number of different people who want the same information from a vessel these days, you know, in terms of charterers, in terms of port state control, customers directly. You get a lot of product launches. You get a lot of deal announcements, that kind of stuff. What's, what's hot. Nick Chubb: What part? Well, that's a good question. I'll I'll give you give a hot knot. ⁓ the the the first hot knot actually is ⁓ and it may be something of the nature of the show, ⁓ but I but I I I'm actually not convinced that it is. Not seems to be alternative fuels. ⁓ there's very, very little talk of alternative fuels going on at this show. Raal: wanting more and more of this reporting for the crew and and obviously the company themselves who want to understand where they are in readiness for some of these other inspections and stuff like that. it it does make a lot of sense if we can agree on certain standardization of inputs for those and then you know by by giving more control to the to the ship to be able to kind of ⁓ collect that evidence, reduce the amount of time then that they're they're spending in port dealing with a succession of different inspectors asking them Nick Chubb: ⁓ and hot seems to be ⁓ ton mile vessel performance. ⁓ there's so much seems to be happening around getting every last kind of ⁓ calorie, if you like, out of ⁓ out of a vessel's ⁓ voyage, ⁓ or making the most out of every last calorie of of fuel that goes into making a vessel's voyage work. ⁓ whether that's software solutions, whether that's energy-saving devices going onto the ship, whether that's wind propulsion, obviously that we've spoken about many times over the last. Yeah. Yeah. Raal: If not the same questions, then cross over questions that cross over the same sort of thing. And I think that's the real point here is that we're not saying, okay, remove all checks and balances, but but but I think it it it's a little bit like ⁓ what Ockimp were doing with SIA getting a lot of that sort of stuff that takes time on board to go find documentation, all that sort of stuff. So you can then concentrate on the things that really are valuable. Nick Chubb: two months. ⁓ but yeah, absolutely what I've seen really kind of die a death. And I think about two years ago, the last time I was here, ⁓ alternative fuels was a hot and is now absolutely a a not. Raal: which is much more about that human factors kind of ⁓ assessments and so on that they make when they when they have access and to the to the crew. So I think it's a yeah, I'm I'm glad to see that's back on the agenda. And I think you I think it will be interesting to see that progresses. Yeah, and the reasons for that very plainly and simply the wind's gone out of the sails from the net zero framework, right? Nick Chubb: Yeah, and I I think the other aspect as well is I I think generally speaking, the industry can only focus on one major crisis opportunity at a time. And, you know, if if we're looking at the crisis opportunity of 2026, it is global geopolitics, it is what's going on in the Middle East, ⁓ it is all of the kind of immediate term implications of that, whether that's crew stuck on one side of the Strait of Formuz or whether that's rerouting vessels. building on that, also see that I see remote inspection taking over entirely. And I think if you can get to the point where the remote inspection infrastructure is good enough, that all of the kind of standard reporting that you would expect for a ship is available to a surveyor before they visit. survey, they can actually spend much more time engaging with the crew and getting under the skin of how the vessel is actually run because it's very easy to... Well, it's not very easy. It is difficult and quite complex to create a picture through compliance reporting of how a vessel is run. But it's very, very difficult to fake that. ⁓ around the Cape of Good Hope. ⁓ whether it's what it's done to oil prices and what that's ⁓ subsequently done to the chartering market for tankers and oil products. I think that that really has become the kind of focus of the day. And we and I think as an industry we're put we're quite bad at holding two threads at once. And so the the the thing that was going to get dropped was the alternative fuels. But as bunker prices haven't gone up, I think the vessel performance thing becomes even more relevant to that kind of to that kind of short term focus. if you go and really kind of speak to the crew and really get to understand how well they know their stuff and how well looked after are they, how happy are they, all of that sort of stuff. And I think that will make a big difference to the quality of what comes out. Raal: Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think w what you were saying there, it becomes a more of an enabler for the assessment of the welfare, the culture, all sorts of things, which everyone recognises being very important, but is is A pretty weak in terms of consistent signals and B, you know, frameworks to to understand that. And there are there's a whole bunch of stuff. Talked about that with Suzanne Justison from ⁓ Global Maritime Forum the other week. if you recall when I was out at Maritime Cyprus and I was kind of giving you the lowdown of what had happened at that last September, there were quite a few Greek ship owners on stage there. And that was very much the message that, look, we're going to, you this is before the delays to the net zero framework were announced. They were very clearly and very sort of partisan in their sort of objections to that. But then there was this, on the other hand, Nick Chubb: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Quick side note, Raoul. Raal: that with some of what they're trying to do. But there's some other interesting things emerging as well, sustainable shipping initiative, ⁓ right ship, people like that. ⁓ we'll come back to that as a topic. But I think I think it's it's a good acknowledgement that, as you said, move the standard reporting, the binary stuff, ⁓ to to remote and then allow the inspection to mature and hopefully be less burdensome for the crew. we're going gung-ho into energy saving And so I'm completely unsurprised that particularly given where you are well, Nick Chubb: Yeah. That is the third pullback you've made to previous episode. And I saw on YouTube the other day that 84 % of people who watch our episodes are not subscribed. And so if you want to make sure you're getting access to all of the insight that Rilekeeps referring to, make sure you subscribe wherever you're watching this, listening to it, whatever it is that you're, however it is you're consuming it. It is quite a lot of effort to put these shows together. Raal: I think your point around shipping being able ⁓ to hold so many things in its at time, think is a good one. And the default position of the shipping industry is always short term. Nick Chubb: And it means a great deal to us when people do subscribe, but also if we've got good audience, it allows us to go and get better and better guests over time. And so we're going to keep on pushing that, but we need everyone listening to make sure they subscribe to enable that to happen. Raal: Quite be talking to people about something that's expected to land in 12 months time. And the message you get back is, ⁓ right now I'm just worried about I'm gonna be instilling business by Christmas kind of thing. So throw in a kind of global. Yeah, please do subscribe, but also do that bell thing, whatever that is, notifications and and comment as well. Comment and like Yeah, when when people comment, it it's really helpful. It it helps to ⁓ make the discoverability of it. But it also lets us know what find interesting and insightful and all that sort of stuff. Nick Chubb: Stick a comment in, yeah. Raal: ⁓ geopolitical crisis on top of that and surging in fuel prices and availability and all of those things on top. It's no wonder that people's focus of over, you 2030 targets 2050 targets is going to go out of the window, I think. ⁓ But just coming back to coming back to the deal, ⁓ I I was a little bit surprised, I have to be honest. And I think it's interesting when talk about ⁓ convergence ⁓ things like that. Because you mentioned there fleet management as a software category with UNIC. It can be a little bit of a ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah. Okay. Raal: Can be a little bit of a nebulous term, and it normally means that when you're in the fleet management software space, you're normally, you know, you're normally in the you've got a really good plan maintenance solution, or you've got a really good crew solution, or you've got a really good ⁓ procurement solution. This combination really is connecting up the sort of the lesser-known part normally of fleet management, which is that HSEQ And I've always felt that HSEQ. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: software was the real sweet spot that all the fleet management systems like no I never saw any one fleet management system that where the HSCQ module really ⁓ really really sung. and I can understand how, you know, Kaiko systems plugs into that HSCQ piece. But I I thought it was it wasn't an obvious match to me and it'd be interesting to s to see what they're sort of how they sort of see this combination going. But do you get any sense knowing the companies Nick Chubb: Okay. Raal: ⁓ of why this makes sense as a strategic move. Nick Chubb: think my and I will say I've not spoken in detail to anyone with knowledge of ⁓ deal, but sense this ⁓ is quite a product play. One thing I think Unisex lacks ⁓ is the kind of aspect, interface. So that's what Kyco does. The thing does really, really well ⁓ is two things. One is actually ⁓ creating mobile software the ship. It's very easy for the crew to use. And then two actually, kind of mobile device management that sits around that is like, it's not just a case of just giving out mobile phones to the ships. There's a lot of infrastructure set up which required to make a mobile device work on a ship. And if you're in the tanker market, which is very heavily in those mobile devices have to be intrinsically safe. And so, you know, it is a complex space to, to be, be, to be doing mobile first software. And I think that's, that's, there's a lot that probably lives within the Unisex platform that could benefit from being in the seafarers hands on the deck of the ship in terms of information and data. And I think there's probably a lot of product expansion that could happen. within the Kyco system in terms of the types of questions that they're asking to ultimately automate or reduce as much as possible the kind of manual collection and entry of data. And I will just, I will flag up another trend I've seen, which kind of plays into this a little bit. And that's actually around, I think we're getting to the point where condition-based maintenance is going to have its day. Again, something that's been in R &D for 10 years. I've been personally involved in R &D projects around condition-based maintenance. To sort of never been able to make it fly. And that I think is in part because the focus of a lot of the work in the past has been around, for example, putting a vibration sensor into a piece of equipment and then taking the data off that vibration sensor and running an algorithm that tells you about the condition of the piece of equipment. The problem is when someone drops a spanner the piece of equipment, suddenly you get a big spike in vibrations ⁓ you start throwing off alarms. Similarly, like oil analysis coming off pieces of ⁓ it reasonably well, but only a of single data point. And now I think what we're starting get to is that can take in vibration analysis, ⁓ oil analysis, ⁓ book analysis, ⁓ types of data that you can collect through a platform like K-Code, pull it all into one place and then provide a on the condition of the equipment or of the vessel. ⁓ There's company exhibiting called Propulsion Analytics ⁓ that was speaking to yesterday. They've actually just received class approval, I can't believe, from but one of the IX classes are since class approval for a condition based maintenance notation and for equipment based on that kind of approach basically taking four or five what would otherwise be separate data streams, combining them together to be able to get a really clear picture of how the equipment's doing. And I think that's ultimately the direction a product like Unisey, Keiko kind of combined together will end up going, which is quite exciting. Raal: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think when you think about inspections, they're really important. They're a they're a massive factor in any ship it's i i it's almost like your sort of license to to operate, isn't it, in in a sense but it's it's also a massively rich source of data potentially in terms of all those kind of things that you talked about there around how work is actually being performed and the what's the the the condition of different things and ⁓ the knowledge even of the crew to be able to make the assessments and so on So so yeah so it makes a lot of sense to hook that in and and I think you can probably add a lot more value by by that being absorbed into really integrated into your HSEQ play. But as you say, ⁓ If you then think about like how HCCQ sits next to ⁓ your your your ⁓ plan maintenance kind of system, ⁓ which you're advocating moves to a more of a you know condition based approach, again, you know, there's there's value to be added there across that sort of and that's when that fleet management world becomes kind of super interesting because it's you're able to kind of connect up, and as you say quite rightly. ⁓ that's the real value and why we get excited about things like AI, because it's the ability to make all of those kind of connections across the ecosystem that that frankly would would just not be possible ⁓ without a machine So ⁓ yeah, really interesting. ⁓ and ⁓ as said, big congratulations to them doing as you well know, and I have and I ⁓ have ⁓ we've we've lived through ⁓ Nick Chubb: the institution. Raal: ⁓ closing out deals and trying to do it at Posidonios. ⁓ I remember I remember announ making announcements. It's always seems like a good idea at the time to do your announcement at a major show, but it pr it adds a it adds a certain dimension. Yeah, it adds a certain dimension, particularly if you've got trying to coordinate all the press and the ⁓ all that sort of stuff. And if it's if it's ⁓ sensitive as well, market sensitive and you've got to lock it down, that's even more Nick Chubb: Until 24 hours before. Okay. Raal: nail biting. So ⁓ yeah, so they'll be they'll be enjoying a few glasses of Retsina ⁓ in the course of this week and well deserved, I'm sure. Nick Chubb: Bye Ryze. Bye Ryze. Raal: Good. Well look, you've got any other ⁓ insights that have come through, maybe we just have a little bit of a look forward to when we're actually going to be physically together next week. Nick Chubb: Yeah, let's talk about that because I'm excited. I think last week we kept catching each other in hotel rooms virtually. We're now actually going to be staying in the same hotel at the same time and we can record in person, which I think we've only done once since we started doing this. Raal: think you're right. Yeah, I think you're right. So we're gonna be in Bergen for Bergen shipping week. Is it is it a week? Do they call it a week? Nick Chubb: definitely Bergen Shipping Conference. Bergen International Shipping Conference, I think, is the official name. But yeah, I'm sure it can be a week. But we're there for a few days. There's definitely at least a couple of days. Raal: Yeah, I think ⁓ maybe not. yeah, it's a it's a full day programme. It's looking really good. If you're in if you're gonna be there, do say hello to us. We'll we'll be ⁓ we'll be walking the the floor for sure and ⁓ watching all of the sessions with with a great deal of interest. There's some really interesting speakers ⁓ going on. And then we're gonna be ⁓ doing a very ⁓ well a a a first, isn't it, for us of Nick Chubb: It is. Raal: of a live on stage ⁓ undocked conversation and we've got to try and be much, much more ⁓ brief than we are in these sessions because we can't we've got we've got 20 minutes, I think, and we've and we we won't be able to edit out any of the ums and ahs and me saying, you know. So ⁓ we're gonna be disciplined, but we're gonna be talking about Nick Chubb: We've got no chance. Raal: technology's impact on the human dimension. That's kind of the brief ⁓ that we're we'll be getting into. So inevitably a lot of AI chat in that, I think. But ⁓ yeah, looking forward to it. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah, me too. And I'm particularly looking forward to the rest of the conference, actually. I've got some really exciting speakers, some of which I think we're going to try and nab and record sort of separate side interviews. So hopefully we'll be able to stitch the whole experience together into single episode that's a combination of us on stage plus the interviews that we get. and anything else that happens while we're there. So yeah, it should be good fun. I'm very much looking forward to seeing you at Gap with Airport bright and early next week. Raal: Yeah, yeah. Me too, me too. Well look, ⁓ I know you've got ⁓ you've got to go and do the day job and ⁓ no point being all the way in Greece and talking to me back here. So ⁓ get back in there, walk the floor, come back with some interesting stories for next week, ⁓ Nick Chubb: Okay. I'll do my very best. I'll do my very best. It is 2.45, so we're about 15 minutes out from the first happy hour starting. So I'll raise a glass for you in your absence. And thank you very much for staying home and editing this one. Thanks, Raoul. Thanks, everyone. Raal: Ha ha. Yes. Please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll I'll get right to it. Take care everybody. See ya.