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Interivew with MTCH, Jev · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello, and welcome to the Specialty Watch podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan and my goal for Sun Jun, I wasn't able to join
0:05
us because he's in the States right now and I'm in Bangkok,
0:08
Taiwan. And today I'm happy to interview
0:11
Jeff from MTCH. So welcome to the podcast.
0:16
Yeah, hi. Thank you, Ryan.
0:18
Thank you for having me again. I'm Jeff.
0:22
I'm doing the Matcha Cafe in Bangkok named MTCH and this is
0:28
our fifth years already and we have 3 branches in Bangkok.
0:34
Awesome. Yeah, for five years.
0:36
It's a long. Time.
0:37
Yeah. Five years.
0:38
It's awesome. Yeah.
0:38
It's seemed like yesterday all the time.
0:41
I'm sure went by very fast. Yeah, very fast.
0:44
But yeah, lots of memory. So before you started MTCH, what
0:48
was your background? My background I I used to work
0:53
in a fashion. Oh cool.
0:55
Yeah, fashion buying by trade, marketing stuff, OK, Yeah, I've
0:59
been there for 6-7 years, OK, before I resign and I have a
1:05
short break and then I started MTCS, OK.
1:09
But actually the project start like we, we, we have the idea
1:15
about like making it a matcha for like over 10 years already,
1:19
OK. Yeah.
1:20
Oh cool. OK.
1:21
Like single origin single cultivar type matcha cafe?
1:24
Or was it the same concept? Or did that happen later on?
1:27
At the beginning when we start, it was like just matcha.
1:31
And then when we start to do a lot of research and discover
1:36
this and that we we come to discover the single origin
1:39
matcha, We come to discover the single producer matcha.
1:43
Yeah, that kind of thing. So I think it's add up, add up,
1:45
add up. And then we got the the MTCH
1:49
start with the sink and origin sink and cultivar concept matcha
1:53
at the at the beginning. OK, Yeah.
1:55
It's quite awesome. You're like, it was the first
1:58
walking into MTCHI guess two or three years ago now.
2:01
Yeah, the first time is the first time I've ever seen single
2:04
origin single cultivar matcha. I didn't even think I I studied
2:08
a traditional Japanese tea ceremony.
2:10
Yeah. They never talked about the
2:11
actual tea other than usucha or koicha.
2:14
Yeah. And it's like, oh, my goodness.
2:16
Wow. This is just like coffee or
2:18
wine. Like there's all these
2:19
cultivars. And I just.
2:20
I never thought about it that way.
2:22
Yeah, the the concept is like you maintain this is like coffee
2:25
or wine where when we go to like the specialty coffee shop,
2:30
right, there are like a list of the beans that you can explore
2:34
the description of the varieties, note and story of the
2:38
producers. And also the wine is much more
2:41
bigger choice. And then the, when we talk about
2:45
matcha like 10 years ago, nothing is like this.
2:49
Just yeah, just just people don't even know that it is print
2:53
or not. It is just something, just some
2:55
like green powder stuff. Yeah, yeah.
2:58
And yeah. And like I mentioned, when when
3:02
we, when we start to discover, we, we come to know like the,
3:07
the difference of things. And when we test it and we, we
3:11
get dripped right into it. There's lots of things to learn
3:15
and lots of things to share. And we at that time we are like
3:20
we have so many idea and we have some, some place to present
3:24
this, we have some place to to make the exposure of, of our
3:28
idea. Yeah.
3:29
So it's kind of like it's very exciting moment and it's also
3:33
very, very challenging at the time.
3:35
Yeah. Because like you mentioned, it
3:37
was like nothing like this five years ago.
3:39
Yeah, Yeah, sure. So talking a little bit about
3:42
the space that you've created, yeah.
3:44
And I'll guess I'll think about the Sakunvi location.
3:46
Yeah, for. Now.
3:47
It is really cool. The first time I walked in one,
3:50
it's like flooded with light. Yeah, and for any any of the
3:53
listeners on who you've never seen pictures, you should
3:55
definitely go check out their Instagram.
3:56
It almost looks like an Apple Store.
3:59
Even the color tones. It's like some mixture of like
4:02
percentage around the cup and blue bottle aesthetic.
4:05
Yeah, yeah. And some like some Apple store
4:08
and it's so Zen and like everything is just set up for
4:10
matcha. And I walked in and like, like
4:13
you just kind of get it. It's like, wow, this feels just
4:16
like a specialty coffee shop, but it's for matcha.
4:20
So what was your philosophies behind creating space and
4:23
designing the cafe and your inspirations there?
4:27
Right. I can answer in two parts, OK.
4:30
The first part is about the philosophy, kind of like I'm not
4:35
really in that time into the same aesthetic that much.
4:40
And most of the time when we think about the matcha house,
4:43
yeah, is yeah, it's going to look like the tea school or the
4:48
Japanese tea house. I think of myself.
4:51
I imagine myself working in that kind of environment.
4:55
And it does not fit. OK, Yeah, You know, you know
4:58
what I mean, right? Totally.
5:00
Yeah. It does not fit my my personal.
5:01
So I just try to be myself. I just to try to keep things
5:06
simple. And this philosophy also share
5:10
with the customer as point of view as well.
5:13
Because many times when I put myself into like that kind of
5:17
like super traditional tea house, I feel not fit into it.
5:23
And also, I think the customer might think of the same when
5:27
they come to the cafe with their like just their like casual race
5:32
or Oh yeah, yeah, they go to gym there where the sport wear or
5:37
they have have a meeting formal. Yeah, Yeah, it's still too
5:40
formal. Or they feel too, too, I don't
5:44
know, too special. OK.
5:45
I just, I just want to make it simple as I can.
5:49
Yeah. So that's the thing.
5:50
OK. This is about the philosophy.
5:52
We have a slow game at the beginning.
5:54
We we use this to get slow game content.
5:58
Pretty much a bar. OK.
5:59
Yeah, so it's mean contemporary is that's everything that
6:03
happened at the moment. Yeah, yeah.
6:05
Anything you can be whoever you are, you can wear whatever you
6:09
like and you can come here with friends, you can bring your
6:12
laptop, you can bring the books, anything.
6:15
Just come as you are and get get a good match up.
6:19
It feels like the third space, like when you hear, like Howard
6:23
Schultz and Starbucks like decades ago talking about the
6:26
third space. Yeah, yeah.
6:27
The community space. Yeah.
6:29
You get that feeling when you walk into a cafe.
6:31
One of your. Cafes yeah totally, totally.
6:35
And about the design, yeah, when when we want to make the the
6:39
thing that like really like the space like you mentioned.
6:42
So I think about like you mentioned the blue bottles, my,
6:46
this my like all inspiration of it.
6:48
OK, Apple Store, right. And Arabica, that kind of thing.
6:54
I just want to make it clean and more than yeah, yeah.
6:59
How to say easy to approach? Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing.
7:04
I really like how clean it is. And it feels like everything
7:07
that you see has some sort of purpose.
7:10
It's not like a million things everywhere.
7:13
And everything for the complex beverages, like the syrups, the
7:16
matcha cans, the blenders, they're all on the back.
7:18
Yeah. So it's very clean.
7:20
Yeah. And like there's one barista
7:22
station, every single thing that's on the counter.
7:24
Yeah. They use it's it's it's really.
7:27
Cool. Yeah, about the working space
7:29
beside, you know we have 3 branches in Bangkok, right?
7:33
And we, we have super, we we have RV and we also have a
7:37
little bit outskirt of Bangkok. And if you go to this tree
7:42
store, all the workspace are the same.
7:46
The gap between the front counter and the back counter are
7:50
exactly the same. OK.
7:51
The the locate how to say the location of the the two rinser,
7:58
the electric scale, the electric kettle are all the same OK,
8:03
because it's designed by me and I'm going to be the one who you
8:06
know what if I if today I'm working in RE right and tomorrow
8:10
I will be in another branch or the day after tomorrow I will go
8:14
to sleep with I should get the same feeling same movement.
8:18
Yeah, you know what I mean to make it like.
8:21
It's a memory muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:23
It's just it's a muscle memory. So I really, I really into this
8:28
kind of stuff. So I decide everything, every
8:32
centimeters that. It's very cool.
8:35
Yeah. It's actually in a similar
8:37
spirit, tea ceremony, like when you study China, you everything
8:41
has its exact place. Yeah.
8:43
And like your instructor, will correct you if it's like 1
8:46
centimeter too far the other way.
8:48
Yeah, yeah, you know it. You know it.
8:50
Yeah, I'm sure like any advanced practitioners could do
8:52
everything. Blinded.
8:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, so just know the
8:57
space, Yeah. And every movement is
8:59
rationalized. There's no wasted movements or
9:02
crossover. Yeah, yeah.
9:04
Like the process of making one tier, you start with this and
9:08
you end with this finished cream.
9:10
Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.
9:12
It's a very clean setup too. Yeah, like when I watch them,
9:15
it's not only is it the same every time, but you don't see
9:18
much of powder or green stuff anywhere.
9:20
We try, we try. You should come to Ari.
9:23
Yeah, it is. I've been there once.
9:25
It's. Last time, right?
9:29
It's maybe one year ago or maybe 18 months ago.
9:32
Yeah, you come here, it's totally changed, OK.
9:34
Yeah, it's newly renovated. OK.
9:38
The design is more update. OK, cool.
9:40
Yeah. You should be there.
9:42
I like the aesthetic continuity between the spaces because the
9:47
RE location still feels like MTCHI don't have the words to
9:51
describe that. Yeah, but you kind of adapted to
9:56
the space of the building. It feels very, I don't know,
9:59
natural again, hits its own thing, but it still feels MTCH.
10:04
Yeah, I'm, I'm so lucky because every time when we stop the
10:08
location, we don't think much. We don't think about the
10:11
traffic, we don't think about, we don't think much.
10:14
We we we just if we saw the building that we feel it right,
10:19
we ask for the rent and it is OK, we rent it.
10:22
OK yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's how we work with
10:24
RES with I discovered sweet brunch by like the how to say
10:31
when you I I drive to the wrong place, OK and yeah.
10:35
And I look for the yeah. And I look for AU turn and then
10:40
I just found this building with a rental site on it.
10:43
Yeah, yeah. And I call it and on the next
10:46
day, I met the owner of the players.
10:48
We do some negotiate about the price and then we put that, we
10:53
put down the deposit. Wow, OK.
10:55
Very spontaneous. Yeah, very spontaneous, but we
10:57
just like it. I, we at that time we are
11:00
looking for the space that's going to be like our our
11:03
headquarter, OK, Yeah, that should be like real separate
11:06
between the cafe part and also the office part.
11:08
And we also have the central kitchen at the.
11:12
For like the desserts and lagashi kind.
11:14
Of things, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this building, this building
11:19
is was so right. OK, yeah.
11:22
Nice. That's cool.
11:24
Yeah. So when you were opening up your
11:26
first location, what were some of the hardest parts that you
11:30
weren't expecting? You know, it was very
11:33
challenging at the time like five years ago.
11:35
When we do the thing, when we do the thing that is quite like
11:39
very new in the market. The Mazda cafe is very, very
11:42
new. I mean, I'm not the first one
11:44
who do the Mazda Cafe Bangkok or in Thailand.
11:47
There are like many great cafes already at that time.
11:53
But what we do is we try to, we try to describe more about what
11:59
matcha is different. And in that time the people come
12:03
to the cafe, some are already expect that they expect to
12:07
learn, they expect to, to discover the variety of the
12:11
matcha, right? But some are not.
12:13
Some they just come and they just want to good cup of matcha.
12:17
And when they come, when they came, they they found that it is
12:20
too complicated, too hard to to select because they they have no
12:24
idea about the test difference about the the character of the
12:30
Umamineus or the body of the matcha.
12:33
Yeah, they thought like matcha is matcha.
12:36
Yeah, they just wanted to drink. Yeah, they just wanted to grab a
12:38
drink and we we have to learn a lot how to how can we assist
12:44
many kind of customer. OK.
12:45
Yeah, that is the most challenging part.
12:48
Is this the origin of the phrase matcha for everyone?
12:51
Yeah, kind of OK. Yeah, the matcha for everyone is
12:56
developed after we we open RV and we find it OK.
13:01
We yeah, whoever you are, come to the store, you should get a
13:05
good cup of matcha either single origin or brain or very easy or
13:10
very really like really challenging much.
13:14
You should you should get one. Then you feel satisfied.
13:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This this is like just a quick
13:19
idea of much for everyone, but it is our touch.
13:22
OK. Yeah, to compete.
13:23
Oh, I'm. Sure, it's hard.
13:25
Yeah. There's a lot of places struggle
13:27
to do that balance because sometimes they feel when they
13:30
offer a lot of advanced options, yeah, like something expensive
13:34
single origin, single cultivar. It's very easy to start
13:38
lecturing or telling someone why it's good.
13:41
Yeah, this matcha super rare. You should like it.
13:44
There is only this many kilos made and they slip into this
13:47
mode of top down selling. Yeah.
13:51
Versus like a more natural discovery process.
13:54
Yeah. And I feel like you guys thread
13:55
that needle really well because, like, I can walk into the MTCH
13:58
since it could be right now and get a really nice asaki.
14:02
Yeah, made as an usucha and it's perfect and wonderful before I
14:06
can get in like a frappe. Yeah.
14:09
Way. Like the staff feels so well
14:11
trained at, like, having those conversations at any level,
14:15
whether or not you walk in and you're trying your first matcha
14:17
or someone where you want something very special.
14:19
Yeah, I can see how that was like, it's a challenging thing
14:23
to do because I've seen so many cafes.
14:25
Sometimes I walk in and if I don't know, I'm like, afraid to
14:28
ask a question. Yeah.
14:30
It's kind of like if you go into a nice restaurant, you open a
14:32
wine list. Like you're embarrassed to ask.
14:34
Questions. Yeah.
14:35
How do you like break those barriers down?
14:38
How do you make matcha for everyone?
14:40
Yeah, For the price point in Bangkok, the matcha, it's very
14:46
expensive. It's very expensive when you
14:48
compare to the best salary or the average salary of the people
14:53
in Bangkok, it's very expensive. We are talking about like $5 per
15:00
cup, while the 11 meal cost like $2.00.
15:06
Yeah, so much high is very expensive and it is a luxury.
15:11
So that's why we need to make sure that all the people come
15:15
that come to the store, get what they want.
15:19
Yeah, Yeah. So that's why we, we, we do a
15:22
lot of like role play situation, OK.
15:24
Yeah, in the training. In the training, OK, yeah, we,
15:27
we, we try to categorize the title of the customer.
15:31
Yeah, yeah. Just to share like in here we,
15:34
we have like 33 cars of the customer, The 1st is a new
15:39
customer who come here without knowing anything, OK, they just
15:43
heard that this much hard, Chris is nice.
15:45
So they just try to come. So what we should address them
15:50
to get what they want. And if they come back they will
15:53
be, they will be a second time. Yeah, this is like a repeat
15:58
customer that they found something good here and they
16:02
like something and they come here, maybe they want to get
16:06
same thing or they want to try something new.
16:08
Yeah. So we should we should know
16:11
them. And the third customer is an
16:14
advanced customer. They are like they have many
16:17
experience in tea. Maybe they come from the like
16:21
the English tea or Chinese tea industry or they are like a much
16:25
really like forward customer. So we should know them how to
16:29
how can we assist them? So we we do like a lot of low
16:32
fare training to make sure that the staff can be able to assist
16:37
them. OK, Yeah.
16:39
You really feel that really translates watching just
16:43
everyone interact with the guests at the cafe.
16:45
Yeah, yeah. And, and most of the thing when
16:48
when we talk about the the much high is luxury in Bangkok and
16:51
people come here, they expect a lot.
16:54
Yeah, not only the test, the communication is very important.
16:57
Yeah, yeah, to to make it right. Like most of the customers come
17:01
to the come from the coffee industry or the the white
17:06
industry where the industry is much more bigger.
17:09
Yeah, yeah, the people are like a giant.
17:12
They got a great palette. So that's why we need to
17:14
practice a lot and we need to, we need to make sure that all
17:18
the communication that we do is right.
17:20
Like when we try to describe the testing node, this, this and
17:23
that, We have to make sure that all the people in the team get
17:26
the same thing. Yeah, yeah.
17:28
We. Can't have mixed messages.
17:29
Yeah, no, you cannot. This is very important.
17:32
The thing that many customers talk about about cafe is when we
17:36
write down the description of The thing is quite accurate.
17:41
I'm not saying accurate because there there is, it is not the
17:44
much high, it's not like a chocolate or that kind of thing,
17:47
right. Make sure that the people feel
17:49
the same like when you when you put down the CB, the no read the
17:53
eight element as far as that's kind of testing node.
17:55
Yeah, yeah, all the people, or at least all the staff in the
17:58
team need to be like. Agreed.
18:01
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
18:03
And when you, you or the customer come to select this
18:07
matter, yeah. You sets the right expectation.
18:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So how did you go about the menu
18:15
design? I really like the organization,
18:17
so I feel like it's very easy to make a decision.
18:19
You can do like light brew or latte or specialty drink or Ho
18:23
Chi Cha and then within each of them.
18:25
But as you mentioned, the tasting notes are really cool
18:28
and I love how the tasting notes are different, whether or not
18:31
it's just with water or just with milk.
18:34
The OIT blend has completely different descriptors or maybe
18:37
there's some overlap. You even make the distinction on
18:41
flavor profile, the same product depending on what base it is,
18:45
which is but like how? How did you go about designing
18:48
this menu? How have you changed it
18:49
throughout the last five years and what's the rationale behind
18:54
the engineering you? Have you you mean you mean how I
18:58
I selected much how on the menu list or the how how?
19:01
How can I approach on the menu? I guess both both both menu
19:05
designed and what you put on. Let's talk about the user
19:08
interface. But OK, user interface.
19:11
Yeah, the user interface. I I just want to make it as
19:15
comfortable for the customer as I can get because like most of
19:19
the, you know, the customer in Bangkok, 70% is come for the
19:25
matcha with milk, the matcha latte.
19:27
Yeah. 70 percent, 70%, yeah, it used to be 80, OK in the past.
19:32
But now people change. People start to shift to being
19:35
like, more just pure matcha. OK, yeah, Good school.
19:39
It's good for me. Yeah.
19:40
Yeah, Good for us. Yeah, we, we, we try to decide
19:46
the menu that can can that easy to understand.
19:52
Yeah. And just make clear how to say
19:55
clear, clear steaks of milk and without milk.
19:59
So and when the when the customer come to the store, you,
20:02
you, you got asked right, would you like to match up with milk
20:05
or without milk? And if you say milk, you go to
20:07
this. If you will say without milk, go
20:09
to that and OK, and we can explore.
20:12
What match app we have today yeah so that that's kind of
20:16
thing so that that is the user interface and about the
20:22
structure I just want to hover the the the choice of match app
20:27
that that can can go for the wide range customer.
20:32
OK, Yeah, we have like very easy matcha, like Ovi T brand, right?
20:36
It's very easy casual and the tone, the rows that see the
20:43
roasted cereal, the roasted chocolate or that kind of thing
20:46
is very friendly for the new customer or it is a comfort zone
20:51
for the really customer as well. So, so we got to have this, we
20:55
got to have something that really stand out, the taste of
21:00
Yami matcha. Yeah, I'm a big fan of Yami
21:02
matcha. So I got to have something that
21:05
really a good example or a presentation of Yami matcha.
21:09
And of course we have to got like the standard matcha from
21:14
Kyoto. Yeah.
21:15
Or like the very prom selected plantation of Gucci matcha.
21:20
OK, yeah, like and also the award-winning, we have to get
21:23
cover the choice. And when you think about the
21:25
customer that I just shared, we have this for this, we have this
21:28
for that. We have everything for everyone.
21:31
OK, Yeah, so this is for everyone.
21:33
Yeah. So this is how I put the matcha
21:36
on the list. If you are like a crazy guy, you
21:38
won like the the award-winning matcha or even the winning lot
21:42
must have be happy for you. OK, cool.
21:44
Yeah. And the price?
21:46
Lot more than $5, I'm sure. Yeah, but but I I don't want to
21:51
make it sky high. OK, Yeah, some some people might
21:54
think that when when they they got like the award-winning
21:57
massage, they mark it up like $15.
22:01
Yeah, that's so expensive, right.
22:03
Or even way more like in in Bangkok.
22:07
They are like cafe cost the matcha 10,000 bucks.
22:12
Oh. No, no, no.
22:14
No 1000 bucks, sorry. 1000 bucks a bowl.
22:16
Wow. Per bowl?
22:18
Per bowl. Yeah, for a bowl, 50 dollars,
22:19
$35 something. Like that?
22:23
Yeah, yeah. That's too much.
22:25
I mean, I have that kind of matcha too.
22:31
And if it is in our cafe it would be like just 10.
22:36
OK. Just $10 and we think if you're
22:40
looking for something really special, the price will not be
22:43
like, like too high, too high, a lot more than your everyday cup
22:49
of tea. Yeah, In a lot of ways, that's
22:51
amazing because, like, if you're talking about the best of
22:55
anything, yeah, having like some of the world's best matcha for
22:59
$10.00 for a Musa chop, Yeah, is insane.
23:02
When you compare that to something like wine, Yeah, it's
23:05
only like 1, a $10 bottle of wine, it's not going to get you
23:08
anything special. Yeah.
23:09
Or even a glass. One of the coolest things about
23:13
tea is the excessive. And it's even at the highest
23:16
end, it's still not that bad for the best in the world.
23:21
Like when we talk about the wholesale price of the basement
23:24
tag, it can be like $1.00 per grams, right?
23:28
Yeah, at wholesale price. And when we do it, we just have
23:32
used 2G. Yeah.
23:34
And then we sell it for for 10 grams.
23:36
I think it makes sense. We don't have to like do the
23:40
markup, how to say do the markup calculation and mark like $30
23:47
per cup, Yeah. Just because it's a scarce
23:50
swear. Thing, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:52
I mean, the margin is not that high, but I think it's OK, yeah.
23:56
Yeah, well, especially because like people want variety, so it
24:00
helps customers explore flavors, discover what they like.
24:04
Yeah, anything. It's like a Little Rock on their
24:06
journey. Yeah, there as they move forward
24:09
in. Their journey.
24:10
Yeah. Sorry about this part.
24:12
It is hard to explain it because I haven't noticed.
24:15
I never share this topic with anyone, you know.
24:17
OK, Yeah, but this is good. Happy.
24:20
Yeah. And what else?
24:22
Yeah. About the how can I start one
24:26
menu right? All the menu, all the matcha
24:30
start with the usual yeah, Every time I get the samples or every
24:35
time we would like to reconstruct the menu, we will go
24:39
back to usual shop all the time. It's very important, but we we
24:46
do a lot of like brewing technique to to get me know
24:50
about the taste of the tea and how can they produce the test.
24:55
Yeah. And then when we really know the
24:57
taste of that that tea. So we we make the recipe after
25:01
that. When you do sensory analysis on
25:04
new samples for matcha that you're thinking about buying,
25:07
yeah, you always do it like as you said, cha, or maybe it's
25:11
also quite cha or maybe also with milk, without milk.
25:16
Diluted, not diluted. How many when you're looking to
25:20
make a purchasing decision? How many different examples or
25:23
preparation methods? Oh yeah, that's a lot.
25:26
I feel like you can do tons, but that's also will take forever to
25:30
evaluate samples. So like, yeah, what works for
25:33
you? Yeah, like that, OK.
25:35
Everything. Yeah, everything but but the
25:37
Kois high is another thing. Yeah, maybe stop it if it can be
25:41
like a good tea, Yeah, maybe it can be a kois high, but if it's
25:45
but if it not decent enough, forget about OK, yeah, yeah,
25:50
it's like that. And when we we start with oh,
25:54
there's, there are some highlights.
25:55
There are some nice attributes that come with the hot water.
25:59
OK, we start to crack down the brewing technique, the brewing
26:03
ratio that we need and then OK, we will get the the recipe for
26:08
the matcha, the matcha drink. We call it light blue in our
26:12
cafe, right. It is just like an and how much
26:15
America know OK, yeah that kind of thing.
26:17
It is diluted version OK. Well, it's my usual.
26:22
Yeah, yeah, the ratio is 1 to 51 to 50.
26:25
Yeah, one, yeah, 1 to 50. OK, wow.
26:27
The usual size is 1 to 30, right?
26:29
This is 1 to 50. Yeah.
26:31
OK. Yeah, that is the ratio of the
26:34
the the total tea to liquid. OK, Yeah.
26:37
But the extract, the extraction ratio is another thing.
26:41
OK. We can do like 110181 15, OK.
26:47
Yeah, I've been doing ratio experiments too, and I think 1
26:50
to 15, really nice phone. Yeah, it's interesting how it's
26:54
the race extraction ratio in the OS really changes the pace of
26:58
the. Phone totally.
26:59
And still I need to do more experiments, but it's something
27:02
you feel like not enough people talk about.
27:04
Yeah, not enough. I, I have a advantage when
27:08
working in the cafe because I'm not the one who, who need to, to
27:13
drink the, the sample. You, you know what I mean?
27:16
When people, they, they like to discover the brewing technique
27:19
or they, they would like to, to take the differentiate of the,
27:23
the form or the time. And when they do it at home,
27:27
they are, they are the, who has to bring that much time and they
27:31
feel hesitate to throw it away. But when we were in a team and
27:35
we have like a group of staff who can like do the sensory
27:39
evaluation, we have like 10 people.
27:42
That's perfect. Yeah.
27:43
It's what size you need, yeah. Yeah, we, we have a 10 people
27:46
group up together and we we can like do a ton of sample.
27:49
Because that way it's not to your preferences that you get a
27:52
group consensus. Your consensus is very
27:54
important. Yeah, this one consensus get
27:57
back to the the testing node. It got to be like the group
28:01
consensus. Yeah, I wish.
28:02
I used to work a lot in sensory in my last job.
28:05
Yeah, for large food and beverage companies, sometimes
28:08
when they were making a new version, like someone's boss
28:11
would be the final decision maker.
28:13
Yeah, couple companies that are famous for the CEO has to taste
28:16
every new product, but they don't like it.
28:18
They don't release it. They call that the golden
28:20
tongue. And like everyone's so annoyed
28:23
that they have to like this one person's the decision maker,
28:26
except there's people have other preferences.
28:29
That's that's awesome. So many people.
28:32
Yeah, yeah. You know, some much had some
28:35
matcha in the list, like the some of the special seasonal
28:39
matcha. I'm not like a big fan of it.
28:42
Yeah, but the team like it, OK. Like 5-6 out of 10 girls like
28:48
it. OK, Yeah, let's do it.
28:50
Yeah. And you got to make sure that
28:52
you present it right because you like it.
28:54
Yeah. Like I recently discovered, I
28:57
don't really like cincha like that fresh matcha.
29:00
It's too grassy, too great for me.
29:02
But like, totally see how other people would like it.
29:04
Yeah, it would be a shame if there was a blocker to present
29:08
the variety. Yeah, yeah, totally.
29:10
Sometimes I can be like a mad Warner, like, OK, I like this
29:15
one, I got to sell this one and the people are not like it.
29:21
I mean the team are not quite like it, but OK.
29:23
If you want to do it, it's your call.
29:27
Yeah, well, you should have to make sure making decisions.
29:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be very painful selling a lot of
29:32
things that you do personally like.
29:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, it's that's cool, I
29:36
need to go. Yeah, I got, I got lucky.
29:38
I could. I got a great team.
29:40
Oh yeah. Yeah, the team that's I've been
29:42
there almost every day for the past couple of days.
29:45
Thank you. That's amazing.
29:46
Watching everyone work and interact, it's very inspiring,
29:51
so thank you. I don't know if we'll ever open
29:52
cafes, but if we do, it's really the high point for me.
29:56
Yeah, there's a lot of work at the back of house.
29:59
I'm sure, yeah, I've noticed that all the by the time anyone
30:03
sees anything, it's either measured or pre dosed or they
30:07
get it and it's just the whisking and then, you know,
30:10
it's like all the chaos of the complexity of preparation is
30:13
away. And I've noticed too, like even
30:15
when there's a queue, it's not boring.
30:17
Like it's performative. Like that one long bar is almost
30:20
a stage and there's always something to look at or to do.
30:24
It's you don't have like the stress of waiting for your drink
30:27
or knowing if it's gonna ready. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's not
30:30
like horrible, right? Like you see the people working
30:34
all the time. Yeah, it's, it's really cool.
30:37
I've never seen anything quite like it.
30:39
Oh, yeah. Thank you so much.
30:41
You should come to Ari. I should, I will.
30:43
Yeah, the last week and it was like a long holiday in Thailand
30:48
and we have like 3 nightmares. It's like it's like a hair
30:52
kitchen in, in the and I was there.
30:56
I am the head of visiting head of brewing.
30:59
Yeah, during this this long holiday.
31:03
And it was so straightforward. Yeah.
31:07
Or the OR the finish all the queue.
31:09
So fun, so proud. Yeah, yeah.
31:11
I've noticed, too, even when there's a queue, it doesn't feel
31:14
like anyone's cutting any corners.
31:16
Like no one's panicked. Everyone's just doing, like, the
31:19
best work they can do. Yeah, like, it's because some
31:22
cafes you walk into, it gets too crazy.
31:24
They're running around, they're making a mistake.
31:28
It seems like they're not measuring things accurately.
31:31
Like everyone's very composed. It's impressive to watch.
31:34
Yeah, there is no shortcut. This is our like our world
31:38
philosophy. There is no shortcut and there
31:41
is no compromise in anything. For example, we talk about the
31:47
brewing ratio, right? One matcha if the recipe is one
31:51
to 10 for the brewing. If you did it wrong, you make
31:55
like 1:00 to 8:00. It might be like just five
31:59
meals, 5 mils of water difference right?
32:02
But no, it's wrong. Make it again.
32:04
Oh, wow, yeah. Oh wow, that's awesome.
32:07
Yeah, make it again. Wow, that's just like in the
32:09
early days of like Blue Bottle, they pulled the espresso wrong.
32:12
Even if there was a line, they'd throw it away and like, yeah,
32:15
throw it away. Yeah, yeah, you get.
32:17
You keep it for yourself. You make it again, OK.
32:19
And I'm not charged this stuff because I don't want them to
32:23
like, OK, I don't want to. Yeah, they don't fear to to
32:27
accept the mistake because you keep it for yourself.
32:31
Maybe it's not right on the recipe, but it is a decent cup
32:34
of matcha. But the customer need to get
32:35
what what they order exact the same every branch all the time.
32:42
Yeah. So this is our philosophy and
32:47
yeah, there is no shortcut. There is no compromise in in
32:51
anything. So that's why sometimes can be
32:55
so wrong to to wait for a cup. But yeah, but we have to do this
33:00
way. Yeah, this is the only way.
33:02
I agree. Very admirable.
33:03
Yeah, it's very cool. Thank you so much.
33:05
So you own and operate and Nishiuso.
33:08
Yeah. So what's that like?
33:10
It's seems to be very rare. I think the only, there's one in
33:14
Minnesota by a tea house that I always forget the name of.
33:18
And Mark from Oica, Yeah, that's one in New Jersey.
33:21
And I think you're the only one I've seen has a big one in
33:23
Thailand. Sorry, I'm not sure it is the
33:26
first and the only one industrial size issue, issue or
33:29
not. Yeah, but it was very
33:32
challenging at that time. We would like to do the cafe,
33:37
right? Yeah, we think about this one
33:39
going to be like a headquarter. So you have to show like the new
33:43
innovation of the thing. So we have the issue is to to
33:48
learn about the fresh meal, that kind of thing.
33:51
And but it's really challenging because to have one meal is like
33:55
it's not profitable. How to say it is not common.
33:59
We cannot make it commercialized because that's me.
34:02
It's too slow. It's too slow, yeah.
34:03
But we learn a lot with it. Yeah.
34:06
And now, now today we still like buy ten time and we still do
34:14
like the experiment all the time.
34:16
But if I, if you ask me, would I get another thing, another one?
34:21
No. Yeah, it's too excellent.
34:22
Safe. Very heavy, I'm sure the
34:24
shipping is crazy. Expensive see the shipping when
34:28
at at the time when we had the issue is to be be whole new
34:31
erecticity system Yeah because the the power load is not
34:35
enough. Oh.
34:36
Interesting. So you can't just plug it into
34:37
the. Wall.
34:38
No way. Yeah, there's like a painful job
34:41
to to to make it run, but but but at the moment when when it
34:44
run, I feel so proud. Yeah.
34:46
Yeah, no, I imagine that's cool. That's big glass box right at
34:50
the door. Yeah, yeah, but actually that
34:52
one was the wrong design. I wish I could get a new updated
34:55
one. OK, Yeah, when, when, when it
34:58
crowded much had much had doesn't fall into like a cross
35:02
box. Yeah, on operation wise, it's
35:04
just like very annoying. Must take forever to clean.
35:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but thanks to my thanks to
35:11
my team, yeah, they, they they can clean it nicely, not take so
35:16
long. That's OK.
35:17
I was looking at it earlier today and I.
35:19
Didn't see any. Watch it.
35:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we cannot do the grinding at
35:23
this kind of period because it's like too too humid.
35:26
Oh. Interesting.
35:27
Yeah, it's too humid and it's raining.
35:29
OK, Yeah. And it affect even even the
35:33
issue is, is in the cross grass display, right?
35:37
Yeah, yeah, they are like too affected, right?
35:40
Yeah, still affected. Yeah, the matter gets like a
35:42
little bit sticky. OK, interesting.
35:45
Yeah. So I was walking by or into a
35:48
cafe recently in the area coffee shop and I was looking through
35:53
the menu. It's like, OK, I have to look at
35:55
the match up. I usually don't get it at a cafe
35:57
coffee place because it's usually I'm disappointed and I
36:01
was in the mood for coffee and I was looking through.
36:03
Oh, designed by MPCH. I think it's CPS.
36:09
Yes, CPS. Yeah.
36:11
So is do you do this for other cafes or what's It's very cool
36:15
that like it seems like you built their matcha program.
36:19
Yes and no. OK, how to say for RT partner
36:23
with friends and family only. OK, OK.
36:26
Yeah, because I'm not that open to like the the big company or
36:31
the private or individual cafe to come to enforce me because
36:35
that's the one who who run everything is this that's me and
36:39
my wife running the thing. So you have no time to do that.
36:43
OK, so it's just just for friends and friends.
36:46
So yeah, just a. Few lucky cafes.
36:48
Maybe not good. Yeah, but but I think if it's
36:53
good to have a special export to like the the new wide range of
36:58
customer because like the CPS Cafe or we just have a
37:02
collaboration with a major coffee company in Bangkok, in
37:07
Thailand, the name is Roots. OK, Yeah, Roots.
37:11
And I think it is a good China to explore to the new customer
37:15
and to show to show them how the possibility of the much hat can
37:20
be. Yeah, Yeah.
37:22
Because like when we talk about the the coffee customer or the
37:26
coffee drinker, sometimes they might think they have no idea
37:30
how the good much hat tastes like.
37:32
Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I feel like everyone's first
37:36
exposure to matcha. These are just like normal
37:39
people who are into matcha already is at a coffee shop.
37:42
Yeah. They see it, they try it, and.
37:45
Yeah. Especially in the states, the
37:47
average quality of matcha is very low.
37:49
It makes me very worried how many people try it, say I don't
37:53
like matcha. Yeah, And they never want to try
37:55
it again. Yeah.
37:56
And it's like, no, like it really was a good matcha.
37:59
Yeah, same here at the time. And I go to their cafe and they
38:03
put the matcha. They store the matcha in not
38:07
properly. I think this this kind of like
38:10
this little detail, if I can help it change a lot like how to
38:15
how to store the matcha, how to save the matcha before before
38:18
brewing, people like to look over, right, look over this kind
38:25
of like little detail. Yeah, like.
38:27
No one will notice or it doesn't change the taste that much, but
38:29
really all these little details add up.
38:31
Yeah, yeah. How to store your mug chat.
38:34
Keep mug chat in the fridge, Save the mug chat.
38:37
Use the time like this. Yeah, yeah, totally.
38:42
So you have any growth plans for MTCH?
38:48
We have been steady or. Yeah, we have no expansion this
38:51
year and also the next year I think 3 this OK.
38:55
It's a good place for us and we would like to focus more on the
39:00
backup hosting, do more training, do more like the
39:03
service training, role play training, essentially
39:07
evaluation. We would like to stop the
39:11
extension and focus on this. Oh, wow.
39:14
OK. Yeah, Yeah.
39:14
That is our goal because we we try to introduce new during
39:19
challenging months next year a lot, OK.
39:22
Yeah. Cool.
39:25
What else? We would like to focus on the
39:29
product that we made the MTC share the bowl.
39:32
Cool. Yeah, The yeah.
39:34
Other products as well. Yeah.
39:36
And other product, the home use thing, cool, that kind of thing.
39:40
We would like to focus on this because we got a lot of inquiry
39:44
for the the home brewing customer from outside of
39:47
Thailand, OK, yeah, international customer,
39:50
Southeast Asia, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore posterior.
39:55
OK, cool. Interesting.
39:56
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.
39:58
The home brewing stuff feels like the ecosystem.
40:01
I'd like to see it be more like coffee.
40:03
Is this like 1000 different ways to Yeah, coffee.
40:05
It's a little sad. Like you either have very
40:07
artisanal chowans. No one's doing things that can
40:11
easily scale and be standardized across everyone.
40:13
Yeah, yeah. But I think it's up and coming.
40:16
Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, it's coming.
40:18
Working on it. I'm so happy to hear you're
40:20
working on it. So yeah, clearly the ecosystem
40:24
is evolving. Yeah, I think the foundation of
40:27
the people is very important. Like the coffee industry can go
40:32
very fast because the foundation is very like.
40:37
Yeah. No one had to invent an espresso
40:40
machine or in a coffee grinder like they had all the equipment,
40:43
right? Like they were ready to go.
40:45
Yeah, But matcha, it's not. It's still like you have to
40:48
invent from scratch the way your matcha program is going to be.
40:51
Yeah, yeah, and it does Listen to your podcast and you you talk
40:55
to the no meet Matat, right? You know me, you know Meet.
41:00
Matat. Sorry.
41:01
Sorry. You don't meet Matat?
41:02
Yeah, he he has a we deep inside of the matcha like where he put
41:08
like about the weight in the in the in the matcha industry in
41:14
Japan like no one is really hard to break in.
41:18
No, it's really hard to get start a new T company in Japan.
41:22
Yeah, it is like that. But when outside of outside of
41:26
Japan, we have not that kind of boundary.
41:28
We we don't have we don't have that customs yeah, to do that
41:34
thing. So we can, we can use all the
41:37
power creativities in our world and we can say group, yeah.
41:44
Do something very different. Not for sure.
41:46
So when it comes to matcha terroirs, you were talking about
41:49
Yame, talking about Fuji. Are there any other places that
41:52
you would consider to be important terroirs on someone's
41:56
educational journey? So if I'm very interested in
41:58
learning about different regions and let's say if it's wine,
42:01
like, you know, there's famous regions like Bordeaux, Burger,
42:05
Cochorone, Napa Valley, They're just things that like you have
42:07
to try to really understand wine.
42:10
Are there other places than Yame and Uji that you would recommend
42:14
people taste to understand the flavor variation?
42:18
Of this with the matcha yeah I I haven't worked with the matcha
42:25
outside Kyoto and Fuku Cup that much OK but I can so so that's
42:30
why I have a little idea about the the place outside these two
42:34
preparators. I can share you that there is
42:37
like a hip microclimate in Wuji OK or even in Yamai that are so
42:44
cool. So maybe we can start with the
42:48
you know the Yamai is a big area, right?
42:51
A big area and the place called Doyo Doyo Tao, you know Mashang
42:57
Hilo Kumar. Kumar Yeah.
42:59
Yeah, Kumar sang. He's an award-winning matcha in
43:02
in Fukuoka. OK.
43:04
He made a fantastic Gilkuro and he also made a very nice
43:08
award-winning side during matcha.
43:11
His presentation is very high, like I'm actually like 650
43:15
meters. That sounds very high.
43:17
Yeah, very high and like super strong sunlight and really big
43:22
fog. Yeah.
43:23
So this kind of developed the way you need Matcha profile.
43:28
When we talk about the the yummy matcha, you you might think of
43:31
like the matcha they get like heavily roasty, right?
43:34
Yeah, Roasty. Profile aroma or whatever, Yeah.
43:38
Roasted. Yeah, yeah, but this one is
43:39
none. It's so interesting yeah.
43:41
It's so wow, it's so young, so naive, but pure, super, super
43:47
nice, yeah. Side you know, is this like you
43:51
get a feeling of the I'm ripped buried.
43:55
I'm right there. Yeah, I'm right buried.
43:57
You get that greenness, you get that funkiness.
43:59
OK, Yeah. And the bitterness is nice, but.
44:03
It's an integrator. Yeah, yeah, it's super, super
44:06
funky much. I like it a lot.
44:08
OK, yeah. So this is so hip.
44:10
And also talk about Kyoto, the prayers like Edith Tau.
44:17
It's very nice. Yeah, very nice matcha.
44:19
Underrated matcha. OK.
44:21
The price per kilo is not so high.
44:23
OK. Super cool some great producer
44:26
in Minami Yamashiro. They do like the the the time.
44:30
I hope the price is OK. Very umami and they they work
44:37
really hard about the soil. They got their plantation, got a
44:41
light right aspect to face the sun and the wind and the
44:45
distance from the lake vua. All the things integrate to make
44:49
a great matcha. I really like it.
44:51
But when I just do the uchi crafts at our Cafe and we
44:56
showcase many side of the Gucci chat.
45:00
Yeah, from the very typical matcha mash high volume products
45:05
and informed us you got that kind of thing to like the extra,
45:08
extra new one like my whole lot input.
45:11
OK, Yeah. And it's really, really fun and
45:13
inspiring. Yeah, I feel like you could sell
45:16
out matcha and you could be talking about wines the way
45:18
you're talking about sunlight and slopes.
45:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's.
45:22
It's cool. Yeah, I I did the WSET cost.
45:25
Oh cool yeah very cool. My Co host on JP SWS.
45:30
Yeah, yeah, it helped me a lot to.
45:33
Yeah, similar knowledge. Structures, yeah, structure have
45:37
the systematic approach to this and that I think it's makes
45:40
sense. It's give me more clear pictures
45:42
and logistics OK to to work. Very cool, I need to do it too.
45:46
Yeah, yeah, it's really fun. I recently start to import it in
45:51
this product to Thailand. Oh, I saw that.
45:52
That's cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:54
That's what's that like Japanese, because Japanese wine
45:57
is super niche already. Yeah, I know a little bit about
46:00
it, actually. Don't think you've ever had any,
46:03
but my girlfriend's pretty into it.
46:04
She's she's had a couple of examples.
46:06
Yeah, it's very fun. It's very pure and energy.
46:11
Very funky. OK, Yeah, Yeah.
46:14
But I like it. I'm.
46:15
I'm not a big fan of classical wine, but I mean the classic
46:19
classical Grapevine. OK, Yeah.
46:23
Interesting, like more to like the natural wine movement level
46:26
intervention. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:27
That kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, totally.
46:29
And when when we go back between the wine and the tea, we we
46:35
feel, we feel that it is the same thing.
46:37
A work of Labor, a work of like full of craftsmanship.
46:42
Yeah. Lots of patience to make the
46:44
thing to, to get the work to keep the high standard of the
46:47
world. Yeah, I can feel the same thing.
46:50
So just as one last question before we wrap up, I'm very
46:53
curious, why is Bangkok such a hub of advanced specialty matcha
47:00
culture? I even when you compare it to
47:03
places in Japan, Tokyo or Kyoto, places in the States or in
47:08
Europe that I've been to, it's this flourishing ecosystem of
47:12
all of these matcha vendors. It's so popular.
47:15
It's so it really feels like it's like the best city in the
47:18
world to come to, to try and learn about different matcha and
47:23
I am very confused why. Yeah, it's hard to it hard to,
47:30
you know, at the time that we start MPCH, we never expect that
47:34
in one day Bangkok going to be like 1/2 of of the new movement
47:40
of matcha. But I think at that time, I
47:42
think there are like a lot of core incidents when we start to
47:46
do the matcha thing in Bangkok, we started do the Matcha cafe,
47:51
especially matcha Cafe which is very new.
47:54
And in that time we get locked down with the COVID, people
47:57
cannot move around to other country, right?
48:00
So when people cannot travel, they start to export a new
48:04
thing. And at that time, it's just not
48:07
me that open the specific Matcha cafe there like a lot of snow,
48:12
lots of couple names of matcha cafe in Bangkok at that time,
48:15
right? So I think the people, they stay
48:18
in Bangkok, they discover the thing and they keep to, to help,
48:23
to promote. Yeah.
48:25
And we become it, become a culture.
48:28
OK, Yeah. Yeah.
48:30
And then? It feels like it's a lot of
48:32
locals. At these yeah, yeah, it's great.
48:35
It's. Not just tourists like in Japan,
48:37
like they go to a blended place in Fuji.
48:39
Yeah. Tourist St.
48:41
Yeah, yeah, there's a few Japanese people.
48:43
But really, it's supposed to be. Warn us.
48:45
Yeah, you can put it that way because I think it's right by
48:47
the loco. Yeah, totally.
48:49
We have like the people who come to the cafe and appreciate the
48:53
new concept of the matcha or the people who start to make their
48:56
own matcha at their home. So it's based on very loco.
49:00
So that's why I think the it's become a hub, because when we
49:03
talk about the hub, it is like it's their daily life of the
49:08
life of the people that all the people can get into it and they
49:14
they feel like they, they don't feel much.
49:17
It's a fancy or a strange thing. Become approachable.
49:22
Yeah, yeah. Sounds like you have to do all
49:24
these steps to do it right. It's.
49:26
Yeah, it's something you can do every day.
49:28
Yeah. So, so it then it become more
49:31
approachable. I think people start to to learn
49:34
a lot. And there's a new cafe, there's
49:37
a new team portal, there's a new new thing happen all the time.
49:41
So that's why I think all things together, it makes Bangkok quite
49:45
unique, quite much. Yeah, yeah.
49:48
Building up all this local base, it's really grass rooted.
49:52
Even the Japanese people who work in the tea company, when
49:54
they come to Bangkok, they feel surprised.
49:57
Yeah, because it's not like this in.
50:00
Yeah. In if you not go to Kyoto, if
50:03
you not go to Assad, USAQ Tokyo, you don't get any like much chat
50:08
wipe. Yeah.
50:09
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
50:12
In here lots of there are like a new much shop open every week.
50:16
Oh wow. OK.
50:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Every week or even they don't, they cannot
50:21
find their physical location. They do like a home daily.
50:24
They like home delivery, home brewing, and yeah, make it
50:27
delivery. OK, like using the grab network?
50:30
Yeah, so you see how how it furnished.
50:34
That's awesome. Yeah, that's so cool.
50:37
That is so cool. Well, thank you so much for
50:40
being so generous with your time.
50:41
Yeah, thank you so much too and nice to talk to you.
50:43
Yeah, sorry about my English talk.
50:45
No. Worries.
50:46
Yeah, a little bit. I know it's perfect.
50:48
So if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider rating us or
50:53
sharing with a friend and be sure to follow and TCH on
50:56
Instagram. If ever in Bangkok, you have to
50:59
stop into one of their cafes for sure.
51:01
And thanks, Jeff, and thank you. See you in the next one.
51:04
Thanks. Bye.