Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Serial killer doctor murdered dozens: The investigator who caught him

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Serial killer doctor murdered dozens: The investigator who caught him · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers,
0:02
Speaker 1: do not miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. It's the
0:06
Speaker 1: true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi
0:10
Speaker 1: who is burned alive and the story of the man
0:14
Speaker 1: accused of this heinous crime. Is that the right guy
0:18
Speaker 1: on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers?
0:22
Speaker 1: And how does such a horrific crime occur? With more
0:27
Speaker 1: questions than answers, this is the case that has captured
0:30
Speaker 1: national headlines, taken over social media, and leaves a small
0:35
Speaker 1: town divided. This is a must see TV event. It
0:39
Speaker 1: features exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as
0:44
Speaker 1: a search for answers and justice goes on. Don't miss it.
0:49
Speaker 1: Unspeakable Crime The Killing of Jessica Chambers premier September fift seven,
0:54
Speaker 1: sixth Central, with new episodes every Saturday on Oxygen, the
0:58
Speaker 1: new network for crime Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When
1:13
Speaker 1: I was growing up in the middle of nothing but
1:16
Speaker 1: tall pine trees and soybean fields, my mother would always say,
1:19
Speaker 1: don't go to the hospital. You'll die. That's where you
1:22
Speaker 1: go to die. You'll die in the hospital. Well, as
1:27
Speaker 1: it turns out she was right, especially in light of
1:31
Speaker 1: one particular doctor, Dr Michael Swango. How How was a
1:38
Speaker 1: murderous doctor allowed to kill so many patients? It apparently
1:45
Speaker 1: goes all the way back when he was actually a
1:48
Speaker 1: student at Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, where he
1:52
Speaker 1: took guess what a special interest in dying patients. I
1:58
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for being
2:02
Speaker 1: with us. Take a listen to this. He had a
2:03
Speaker 1: great mind, was very smart, was a good paramedic. He
2:07
Speaker 1: always kept scrap books, and he could bring the scrap
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Speaker 1: books to work, and in his spare time he would
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Speaker 1: go through several different newspapers and cut out stories and
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Speaker 1: past them into scrap books. And of course the stories
2:19
Speaker 1: he was always interested in were the ones that included
2:22
Speaker 1: some type of bizarre accident or death. You are hearing
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Speaker 1: John Lammis, who worked with Swango and an ambulance service,
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Speaker 1: and he's remembering his very first impressions of Dr Michael Swango,
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Speaker 1: a medical doctor, the guy you're supposed to trust the most. Now,
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Speaker 1: that's very scary for all of us scrap bookers out there. However,
2:43
Speaker 1: my scrap books are full of pictures of the twins,
2:45
Speaker 1: and places we've been and things we've done, not unrelated
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Speaker 1: newspaper articles about bizarre deaths. Joining me the man who
2:55
Speaker 1: literally wrote the book, Bruce Sackman, the president of the
2:59
Speaker 1: Society of Actional Investigators Into York and author of Behind
3:03
Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain. Special agent Bruce Sagman hunts doctors and
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Speaker 1: nurses who kill. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor Karen Start renowned
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Speaker 1: New York psychologists, Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer, founder of child
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Speaker 1: crime watch dot com, special guest doctor William Moroney, medical
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Speaker 1: examiner and author of American Narkian, available on Amazon, and
3:28
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Investigative reporter Larry Mayher first to you, Bruce Sackman,
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Speaker 1: I'm I'm so intrigued with Dr Michael SWAINO. Well, I
3:40
Speaker 1: wouldn't go so far to say interested. It's more like
3:45
Speaker 1: looking at a tarantula under a glass box, or when
3:49
Speaker 1: you go to the zoo and you're in the snake
3:51
Speaker 1: house and it's okay to look at them so through
3:54
Speaker 1: some really thick glass. But that's about as close as
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Speaker 1: I want to get. Bruce Sackman, what do we know
4:02
Speaker 1: about Dr Michael Swango? How many people do you believe
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Speaker 1: he murdered? Well, that's a great question because when you
4:12
Speaker 1: ask medical serial killers, and even though that finally agree
4:17
Speaker 1: to cooperate, they've killed so many people they can't remember themselves,
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Speaker 1: um swango, as you know, killed people all over the world. Actually, Wilco,
4:27
Speaker 1: did you hear what he said about well, when it
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Speaker 1: comes to medical serial killers. Okay, you just threw me
4:33
Speaker 1: over the edge right there. Did you hear that? It
4:36
Speaker 1: makes me wonder, Ashley, how many medical serial killers are
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Speaker 1: wandering around? It's going to be a cold d a
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Speaker 1: in h double l before I put another toe in
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Speaker 1: the hospital, Ashley, did you hear what he said? Like?
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Speaker 1: Their common place right exactly? And they can't be commonplace.
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Speaker 1: You have to believe that most medical professionals and doctors
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Speaker 1: are not serial killers. But I think that it does.
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Speaker 1: But the question why do I have to believe that? Well,
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Speaker 1: because it can't be true. You can't. You know, doctors
5:00
Speaker 1: are generally like most people and most occupations generally people
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Speaker 1: are good. But you have those outliers, and this is
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Speaker 1: an outlier of a serial killer. But I am going
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Speaker 1: to say this, Nancy, it's certainly not the only one. Well,
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Speaker 1: Dr William Moroney held on just a moment, you're a
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Speaker 1: dot term you've worked in the hospital. Have you noticed
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Speaker 1: how many people die in the hospital, Dr William Moroney,
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Speaker 1: How am I supposed to know who dies of natural causes?
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Speaker 1: And if there's not another doctor Michael Swana walking around. Well,
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Speaker 1: the first thing is, anytime anybody dies in a hospital,
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Speaker 1: it's only investigated in the first twenty four hours. So
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Speaker 1: if somebody has been a patient and they've been in
5:40
Speaker 1: for chronic disease, the assumption by the medical staff, including
5:45
Speaker 1: the doctors and the nurses and the county officials, is
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Speaker 1: that that person succumbed to their natural chronic disease. And
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Speaker 1: there's very little effort for people to look into an
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Speaker 1: investigation only the first twenty four hours trauma, poisoning or
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Speaker 1: medical errors. After that, it's transparent. It's a fog. You
6:12
Speaker 1: lose these people, and that's how people lose tracks. Well,
6:16
Speaker 1: I've just got to tell you a story that I've
6:18
Speaker 1: never shared before. You all know that my dad passed
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Speaker 1: away recently and we were all with him, and after
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Speaker 1: he passed away, everybody left the room, my mom, my brother,
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Speaker 1: my sister, everybody that was with them except me, and
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Speaker 1: I just could not bring myself to leave his body.
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Speaker 1: Let me tell you something that nurse I still see her.
6:40
Speaker 1: I want to slap that grin right off her face.
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Speaker 1: She came in there like he was just went with
6:47
Speaker 1: the sheets that she's just packing the bed up. And
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Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait a minute, whoa lady,
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Speaker 1: And she said, you're not supposed to be in here.
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Speaker 1: I said, I'm staying with my father, Untie. His body
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Speaker 1: is at the funeral home, and you can call the
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Speaker 1: security and drag me out if you want to, but
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Speaker 1: I can tell you this much. You're going down with me, lady.
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Speaker 1: She just wanted to like fold him up in the
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Speaker 1: sheets and just take him away. I mean she really
7:17
Speaker 1: acted like his body was just a problem. I mean,
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Speaker 1: my dad's body was still warm. He hadn't been gone
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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. It was awful. Bruce Sackman, I'm going off
7:31
Speaker 1: on a tangent here, but I'm I'm jumping off the
7:34
Speaker 1: diving board. William Moroney just put right in front of me.
7:36
Speaker 1: Dr Moroney, because Bruce Sackman, I don't think we really
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Speaker 1: know how many people Dr Michael Swingo killed. I mean,
7:44
Speaker 1: if they get rid of the patient that within the
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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes after they died, the family is still mourning
7:50
Speaker 1: and grieving and upset. They don't even have time to think, Wow,
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Speaker 1: was this expected? Was this a surprise? And I think
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Speaker 1: that's one of the things Swingo have going for him.
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Speaker 1: I'm back to my original questions, how many people do
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Speaker 1: you think he killed? Bruce? Well, it's been estimated sixty. Oh,
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Speaker 1: my son, that's that's you know, that's a rough estimate,
8:12
Speaker 1: because even he doesn't even remember how many people he killed.
8:15
Speaker 1: I've got a quote from your book, Bruce, you say
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Speaker 1: quote He hovered over their bedsides, study their charts, and
8:23
Speaker 1: ask questions about what kind of pain they were in
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Speaker 1: and how they were bearing it. He had this bizarre
8:30
Speaker 1: special interest in dying patience, and that interest was less
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Speaker 1: medical than Hannibal Electric I believe what do you think, Bruce? Oh? Absolutely,
8:43
Speaker 1: he had a fascination with death. He would poison his
8:46
Speaker 1: patients and then sit there in the room with the
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Speaker 1: door clothes or the curtain behind around him and the
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Speaker 1: patient and just sit there and watch and just watch
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Speaker 1: the patient expire. And then he would really enjoy calling
9:01
Speaker 1: the family and telling the family that Dad had just
9:04
Speaker 1: passed away, to the real shock of the family because
9:08
Speaker 1: they thought Dad was actually improving. You know, many of
9:11
Speaker 1: them had actually gone on vacation. They had visited Dad
9:15
Speaker 1: then left, only to get a phone call from Swango saying, Hey,
9:18
Speaker 1: I'm sorry your dad passed a week by. I hardly
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Speaker 1: even know what to say to that. Bruce Sackman, author
9:26
Speaker 1: of Behind the Murder Curtain, Listen to this. They were
9:30
Speaker 1: talking about a call that they had in the middle
9:32
Speaker 1: of the night, um and it was I think of
9:35
Speaker 1: one vehicle accident. They arrive on scene only to see
9:39
Speaker 1: Swango on top of the roof of the car in
9:43
Speaker 1: playing clothes. He starts firing off pictures he had pictures
9:46
Speaker 1: of the individuals in that car. Speaking of horrific crimes,
9:51
Speaker 1: let me switch gears. Guys, if you've heard about the
9:54
Speaker 1: murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not want to miss
9:58
Speaker 1: this new docuseries on Oxygen. The true story of a
10:02
Speaker 1: teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi, burned alive, and the
10:08
Speaker 1: story of a man accused of this horrific crime. Is
10:12
Speaker 1: the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who
10:15
Speaker 1: is Jessica Chambers? The teen girl, How does such a
10:19
Speaker 1: horrific crime occur? With more questions than answers. It's a
10:23
Speaker 1: case that has captured the national headlines, taken over social media,
10:28
Speaker 1: and leaves a small town divided. It's a musty TV event.
10:34
Speaker 1: Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers premiere Saturday, September seven,
10:41
Speaker 1: sixth Central on Oxygen, with new episodes every Saturday on Oxygen,
10:47
Speaker 1: the new network for Crime. We're right outside the hospital
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Speaker 1: entrance to the r when he walks up to us,
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Speaker 1: and I'm just absolutely stunned. I'm like, I cannot believe
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Speaker 1: he's he's here. So he looks at us, walks right
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Speaker 1: on bias, goes through both double doors and who needed
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Speaker 1: to walk down the hallway, and that led him down
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Speaker 1: another hallway and at that point time, I don't know which,
11:09
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know where he's going, but that
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Speaker 1: hallway to the end of the hallway leads to the
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Speaker 1: exter doors and he walked outside. We're standing there just
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Speaker 1: trying to figure out where where's where's the where's the
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Speaker 1: right now? And he was walking along the sidewalk and
11:24
Speaker 1: now we actually see him. He was on that sidewalk
11:27
Speaker 1: walked up to a telephone pole and then crossed his
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Speaker 1: arms and kicked up his leg up on the pole
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Speaker 1: and just stared at us for the entire time. You
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Speaker 1: were hearing co worker Brandt a Missig and he is
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Speaker 1: recalling seeing the killer doctor Michael Swana after he was
11:45
Speaker 1: released on bail following arrest for poisoning coworkers. So it
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Speaker 1: wasn't just his patients and other patients that he murdered
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Speaker 1: under the guise of being a doctor, but co workers
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Speaker 1: poisoned as well. I mean it, sy Grace, this is
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Speaker 1: crimes where he's thank you for being with us. Bruce Satman,
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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, Karen Start, Ashley Wilcot, Dr William Moroney, and
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Speaker 1: Larry Mayher with us. Bruce Sackman wrote the book Behind
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Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain. Bruce, I believe you want to defend
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Speaker 1: doctors in general health. I just want to say that
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Speaker 1: medical professionals, you know, really perform miracles every day. And
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Speaker 1: one of the reasons, in my opinion, why medical serial
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Speaker 1: killers are so successful, it's because they work in this
12:27
Speaker 1: environment with doctors and nurses are saving people every day.
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Speaker 1: So when an out while like this comes surface, people
12:37
Speaker 1: find it impossible to believe that this person is actually
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Speaker 1: killing people. They refuse to believe that one of their
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Speaker 1: co workers. Oh, Bruce Sagman, you are totally you're preaching
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Speaker 1: to the choir, because Wendy Patrick, a veteran California prosecutor.
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Speaker 1: I mean, if I could put a doctor on the stand,
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Speaker 1: or a nurse, a dentist, anybody even related to helping
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Speaker 1: other people to the medical field, juries would love them,
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Speaker 1: particularly if they wore their doctor code or their nurse
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Speaker 1: outfit under scrubs. I mean, juries love them, and there's
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Speaker 1: a reason for that. We trust doctors. We love doctors. Um,
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Speaker 1: They've saved many of our family members. Let me point
13:19
Speaker 1: out that when my dad finally passed away, do you
13:23
Speaker 1: know that doctors had saved his life multiple times? He
13:26
Speaker 1: had his first corninator thrownbosis in his thirties, and he
13:30
Speaker 1: had his life saved over and over and over until
13:33
Speaker 1: he finally went to heaven. Wendy, So, I mean juris
13:36
Speaker 1: respond very positively to doctors. Well, they absolutely do, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: and my heart goes out to you and your family
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Speaker 1: for for your father. But you you are in in
13:44
Speaker 1: the perfect position to know that we rely on doctors
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Speaker 1: to perform miracles, not murder. This particular doctor Swangle, if
13:51
Speaker 1: you look at his record as we're now unfortunately doing
13:53
Speaker 1: in retrospect. This is what I talked about in my
13:55
Speaker 1: last book, red Flags. This was somebody who the man
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Speaker 1: behind the mask was visible to so many people along
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Speaker 1: the way, and that dates back to when he was
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Speaker 1: in medical school. So it's too bad that in we
14:07
Speaker 1: cannot perspectively pick up and actually investigate, like Bruce has
14:11
Speaker 1: done a great job of now. But perspectively, these these
14:15
Speaker 1: isolated incidents should have been huge red flags that there
14:17
Speaker 1: was something wrong. Focus became fixation became motivation behind these killings.
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Speaker 1: And the fact that we don't even know how many,
14:25
Speaker 1: but maybe the number is sixty is almost unfathomable. Well,
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Speaker 1: if they're sixty, I guarantee you there are more. Dr
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Speaker 1: William Moroney, I don't know if it was like this
14:33
Speaker 1: for you in medical school, but it was like this
14:34
Speaker 1: for me in law school, I believe it or not,
14:37
Speaker 1: Dr Maroney, I was so shy and quiet when I
14:41
Speaker 1: went to law school. I know, I know, I know,
14:43
Speaker 1: hard to believe I would I wouldn't even raise my
14:45
Speaker 1: hand ever, and I would look around and listen. I'm like, wow,
14:48
Speaker 1: they're so smart. Little did I know they were all
14:50
Speaker 1: just be as sing. You know how lawyers are, they
14:53
Speaker 1: just can't shut the hay up. Well, they're like that
14:56
Speaker 1: in law school. But Dr Maroney, even in law school
14:59
Speaker 1: there would be complain jackasses. Okay, and you knew then
15:03
Speaker 1: who were the jackasses. Turns out those are the people
15:06
Speaker 1: that got disbarred. Those are the people that never have
15:09
Speaker 1: the discipline to pass the bar. Those are the people
15:11
Speaker 1: that got in trouble. I mean, apparently people in medical school.
15:17
Speaker 1: New Swingo was a weirdo. Here's what you have. You
15:20
Speaker 1: have a really big amphitheater and you have slides and
15:24
Speaker 1: diadactic lectures up front. There are people up front paying attention,
15:29
Speaker 1: they can't see anybody behind them. There are some of
15:32
Speaker 1: the people in the middle. Girls are doing their nails,
15:35
Speaker 1: Guys are worried about the test they didn't study for.
15:38
Speaker 1: And then the people in the back are reading the
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Speaker 1: sports page. So you have all sorts of people like this.
15:45
Speaker 1: Oh man, I was too afraid to do anything but
15:48
Speaker 1: take copious notes what I'm saying. Dr Moroneous, I think
15:51
Speaker 1: you can tell early on who is Let me just
15:56
Speaker 1: say the bad apple that spoils the whole, the whole
15:59
Speaker 1: bunch to you, Bruce Sackman, tell me how his murders
16:03
Speaker 1: would go down? Of sixty plus murders, how did he
16:07
Speaker 1: affect murders within hospitals? Well, Swango like to work. Um
16:11
Speaker 1: caught in the pun the graveyard ship, which was three am.
16:15
Speaker 1: And if you ever been on the hospital or at
16:17
Speaker 1: three am, there aren't too many people around. So what
16:21
Speaker 1: he would do is that he would either inject or
16:24
Speaker 1: cap a line, usually using a paralytic like suctional coling
16:28
Speaker 1: or sometimes epinephrin, and he would close the door and
16:32
Speaker 1: put the curtain around him in the patient and sit
16:35
Speaker 1: there for thirty minutes and watch, and then eventually a
16:38
Speaker 1: code would call, and sometimes he would respond to the code,
16:41
Speaker 1: or sometimes he wouldn't, and he would take out as
16:44
Speaker 1: many people as he could until he actually got caught.
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Speaker 1: Not only here in the United States, but he did
16:51
Speaker 1: the same thing in Zimbabwe. And when he was in
16:53
Speaker 1: Zimbabwe Africa, he killed women and children and pregnant women
16:59
Speaker 1: actually got charged with murder there as well. Would never
17:03
Speaker 1: serve time there because we arrested him here. Larry May
17:06
Speaker 1: hear joining us from Crime Online dot Com. And Larry,
17:09
Speaker 1: remember this this guy, this doctor Michael Swingo. He was
17:13
Speaker 1: considered and I'm getting this from Bruce Sackman's book Behind
17:17
Speaker 1: the Murder Curtain, and I'm quoting from his book. While
17:20
Speaker 1: he Swago was considered a brilliant student with the potential
17:23
Speaker 1: of being a great doctor, and no one got the
17:26
Speaker 1: impression he was searching for ways to help those desperate patients.
17:31
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out what that means. It
17:34
Speaker 1: appeared that what he enjoyed most was being close to
17:39
Speaker 1: their suffering. You know, after I go to you, Larry,
17:42
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to go to the shrink here and start.
17:45
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Larry, to get an idea of the sort
17:49
Speaker 1: of the arc of his of his story. When he
17:52
Speaker 1: was in medical school in Illinois, uh some of his
17:56
Speaker 1: patients died. He then got a residency and internship in Ohio,
18:00
Speaker 1: where more patients died. Well after he was removed from there,
18:04
Speaker 1: he went back to his hometown in Illinois and got
18:07
Speaker 1: a job as an ambulance attendant, a paramedic, And it
18:11
Speaker 1: was while he was a paramedic that he got the
18:14
Speaker 1: nickname Double O Swango. Licensed to kill like Double O
18:19
Speaker 1: seven James Bond. He was convicted of poisoning several of
18:26
Speaker 1: his coworkers by bringing them donuts laced with rat poison
18:31
Speaker 1: and dumping arsenic into a picture of ice tea that
18:35
Speaker 1: was in the break room, and giving one of his
18:38
Speaker 1: co workers a poisoned soft drink. He actually served almost
18:42
Speaker 1: three years in prison for that before he went back
18:45
Speaker 1: to killing people in hospitals. I don't understand it, Bruce Ackman,
18:49
Speaker 1: author of Behind the Murder Curtain. He poisoned his coworkers,
18:53
Speaker 1: why was he allowed to go back into a hospital. Yeah.
18:57
Speaker 1: Pretty amazing, isn't it. But this is what happened. He
19:00
Speaker 1: actually forged the number of documents. He had changed his name,
19:04
Speaker 1: forged the number of documents. In fact, he even forged
19:08
Speaker 1: a statificate, a certificate that reinstated his civil rights from
19:13
Speaker 1: the governor of Virginia, and he had claimed to these
19:16
Speaker 1: medical boards that being a tough ex marine, he actually
19:20
Speaker 1: just got in a fist fight, got sentenced to a misdemeanor,
19:24
Speaker 1: six months in jail, But the governor restored his civil rights,
19:28
Speaker 1: and they didn't investigate, They didn't go any further than
19:30
Speaker 1: didn't try to very star They accepted it, and the
19:33
Speaker 1: next thing you know, he's treating patients against Karen start,
19:37
Speaker 1: New York psychologist Karen. This fascination with death, what is that?
19:45
Speaker 1: It's part of what makes somebody be a serial killer
19:48
Speaker 1: and the murderer, Nancy. It's why people you whenever we
19:52
Speaker 1: talked about why didn't they just get divorced instead of
19:55
Speaker 1: killing their spouse, It's because they enjoyed the idea of
19:58
Speaker 1: somebody suffering, And actually it's something that will turn them on.
20:02
Speaker 1: They get excited about it, and it propels them to
20:06
Speaker 1: keep doing it. And here we have what you would
20:08
Speaker 1: call serial killer heaven for somebody who's interested in killing
20:13
Speaker 1: other people because they are in a position where they
20:17
Speaker 1: can do whatever they want and kill as many people
20:20
Speaker 1: as they want, and very often can continue to go undetected.
20:24
Speaker 1: So he could close that curtain and just sit there
20:28
Speaker 1: and gleefully watch the person and I named gleefully watch
20:32
Speaker 1: the person slowly dying. It was essentially a circumstantial evidence case.
20:38
Speaker 1: No one ever actually saw him put poison indonants, or
20:42
Speaker 1: saw him put poison and iced tea, or saw him
20:44
Speaker 1: put poison and soda. When I determine the outcome, I
20:49
Speaker 1: was never any more certain of a guilty verdict than
20:52
Speaker 1: I was of that one. You're hearing Judge Dennis Cashman,
20:54
Speaker 1: who presided at Swanos trial, saying it was quite just
20:58
Speaker 1: a circumstantial But let me remind everyone, under our jurisprudence system,
21:03
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence is just as meaningful, just as powerful is
21:09
Speaker 1: direct evidence, which is like d n A or an
21:12
Speaker 1: eyewitness or confession. Yeah. I mean, bottom line, when you
21:16
Speaker 1: have sixty plus dead bodies and they're all uh, the
21:20
Speaker 1: only common denominator is you, I think that means a
21:23
Speaker 1: lot to a jury. We are taking your calls. Let's
21:27
Speaker 1: go straight out joining us right now from Nevada A
21:30
Speaker 1: member from Law Enforcement High Nevada. Thanks for calling. What's
21:34
Speaker 1: your question? Well, my question is is that, based on
21:38
Speaker 1: what I've been hearing just a little bit this morning,
21:40
Speaker 1: is uh the fact that if you've got what you
21:44
Speaker 1: just said, a strong case of circumstantial evidence here? Why?
21:48
Speaker 1: My question is, so, why why are we uh? I mean,
21:52
Speaker 1: there's been cases before decided buying a strong circumstantial evnence
21:56
Speaker 1: without physical upness. Well, I'm trying to figure out what
21:59
Speaker 1: the crux of the matter are is involving the actual
22:02
Speaker 1: evidence versus circumstantial Well, are you saying you think with
22:05
Speaker 1: enough circumstantial evidence, someone should be convicted? Correct? Correct? Yes,
22:10
Speaker 1: I didn't do law enforce. Let me ask you a question. Yes,
22:14
Speaker 1: I was just about to ask you. How long have
22:15
Speaker 1: you been in a law enforcement Are you a cop?
22:17
Speaker 1: What are you? I've been in law enforcement state Nevada
22:20
Speaker 1: for almost thirty years. I started out as a state trooper.
22:24
Speaker 1: I became a deputy sheriff, an adult probation officer. I
22:28
Speaker 1: was the sheriff of Mineral County, Nevada from and now
22:33
Speaker 1: I'm a federal law enforcement tribal chief on a reservation
22:36
Speaker 1: central Wow. Okay, that's certainly a resume. Can I tell
22:39
Speaker 1: you something? Go ahead. I love circumstantial cases because it's
22:45
Speaker 1: like putting a puzzle together for a jury and they
22:50
Speaker 1: get to put all the pieces out on the card
22:52
Speaker 1: table and make it complete. And I think Gerard's like
22:56
Speaker 1: figuring things out. I don't think there's ever a law
22:59
Speaker 1: on a case. And I love telling juries that circumstantial
23:03
Speaker 1: evidence is just as strong as direct evidence. Um, you know, interesting,
23:10
Speaker 1: that's always the way, right. Ashley will kind of want
23:13
Speaker 1: to follow up on what our friend in Nevada, is
23:14
Speaker 1: saying Ashley Willcott, judge lawyer or founder of child crime
23:18
Speaker 1: watch dot com. Defense attorneys love to argue, Oh, it's
23:23
Speaker 1: just circumstantial evidence, you know what. I call bs on that,
23:26
Speaker 1: because circumstantial is just as powerful as direct evidence under
23:31
Speaker 1: the law. Right it is under the law. And also, Nancy,
23:35
Speaker 1: if you're a good trial attorney and a good prosecutor,
23:37
Speaker 1: you can have a lot of fun, so to speak,
23:40
Speaker 1: with a circumstantial case, because it's all about how you
23:43
Speaker 1: present the evidence and connect the dots. And once you
23:46
Speaker 1: connect the nut dots, it can often be as compelling,
23:50
Speaker 1: if not more compelling, than direct evidence cases. You know,
23:53
Speaker 1: another issue regarding circumstantial versus direct evidence. Very quickly to
23:59
Speaker 1: Windy Patrick, California prosecutor, I mean, when you have a
24:03
Speaker 1: witness on the stand, like our friend from law enforcement
24:06
Speaker 1: calling him from Nevada right now, yours very often trust
24:11
Speaker 1: and believe someone that makes a good impression on the stand.
24:15
Speaker 1: So the way that circumstantial evidence and folds in front
24:19
Speaker 1: of a jury is important. And and another thing, Wendy,
24:22
Speaker 1: I mean, who can be a direct witness in this case?
24:24
Speaker 1: They're all dead, That's exactly right, Nancy. So many types
24:28
Speaker 1: of crimes, whether it's sexually assault, of crimes, murder, these
24:31
Speaker 1: types of things, they all happen behind closed doors. But
24:34
Speaker 1: the beauty of circumstantial evidence. And I love what our
24:37
Speaker 1: friend on the phone pointed out. Why do we need
24:39
Speaker 1: direct evidence? We don't. And when you have, as we've
24:42
Speaker 1: been pointing out, the common denominator is this one particular
24:46
Speaker 1: doctor that always seems to be in the wrong place
24:48
Speaker 1: at the wrong time. When you pair that with the
24:51
Speaker 1: rest of the evidence, then verdict becomes clear. Here's the
24:54
Speaker 1: one other thing about circumstantial evidence. It has all has
24:57
Speaker 1: to be subject to reasonable interpretations. It would be an
25:01
Speaker 1: unreasonable interpretation to say that lightning could strike over sixty
25:04
Speaker 1: times in one place, even if we didn't have his admissions.
25:07
Speaker 1: So that's another way we say tie goes to the
25:10
Speaker 1: defendant if it's reasonable. But circumstantial evidence really does point
25:14
Speaker 1: to guilt in a case like this overwhelmingly. Back to
25:18
Speaker 1: Bruce Sackman, author of Behind the Murder Curtain, who investigated
25:23
Speaker 1: this case. Bruce, listen to this, and I learned this
25:28
Speaker 1: from your book, so you already know this. He was
25:32
Speaker 1: obsessed with his appearance and working out he graduated valedictorian
25:37
Speaker 1: of high school and served in the Marines, and he
25:41
Speaker 1: was a fanatic about his physical condition and was devoted
25:45
Speaker 1: to push ups and jogging as the means of self discipline.
25:49
Speaker 1: One of his medical school professors says that if Swango
25:53
Speaker 1: was criticized over even a minor mistake, Swango, in front
25:58
Speaker 1: of everybody, would drop to the floor and start doing
26:01
Speaker 1: fifty or more push ups as a form of self punishment. Okay,
26:06
Speaker 1: can I just say what a freak? Help me out,
26:10
Speaker 1: Bruce Ackman. Well, that wasn't the only thing that was unusual.
26:14
Speaker 1: When when he was at the north Ford v A.
26:17
Speaker 1: He used to love to walk around in his scrubs,
26:20
Speaker 1: whether he was on duty or not. And one of
26:22
Speaker 1: the things he'd like to do, he'd like to go
26:24
Speaker 1: into the nurses area, lie prone on the floor and
26:29
Speaker 1: talk on the phone. And what does that mean? I
26:32
Speaker 1: have no idea? Okay, wait a minute, wait wait wait, wait,
26:35
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, Bruce, Spruce, Bruce, lie on the floor
26:39
Speaker 1: in the nurses area. What do you mean by nurses area?
26:43
Speaker 1: You know, when where where the nurses would have their
26:47
Speaker 1: break area. He would go in there, lie on the
26:51
Speaker 1: floor in a prone position and talk on the phone
26:54
Speaker 1: for about a half hour. Just the strange what was
26:58
Speaker 1: he doing looking at their skirts? Not just a strange
27:01
Speaker 1: bit of behavior on his part, since we're talking about
27:06
Speaker 1: looking at people's skirts, since I was talking about looking
27:09
Speaker 1: at people skirts anyway, Did he have a relationship like
27:14
Speaker 1: a wife or a girlfriend. Yeah, well that's that's well
27:20
Speaker 1: she's did too. I mean, he had a wife who
27:23
Speaker 1: he divorced from, and thank goodness she's she survived him.
27:27
Speaker 1: But he had a fiancee. Her name was Kristen Kenny.
27:31
Speaker 1: She was a nurse that he had met in South Fall,
27:35
Speaker 1: South Dakota. And then what happened in Twoux Falls is
27:39
Speaker 1: that he applied for membership in the A m A.
27:42
Speaker 1: And they said, wait, wait, wait a minute, who is
27:44
Speaker 1: this guy? And at the same time, there was a
27:48
Speaker 1: new on television about him. And the next thing, you know,
27:53
Speaker 1: everybody in the town says, wow, we have the serial
27:56
Speaker 1: killer working here in Sioux Falls. So him and his fiancee, UM,
28:02
Speaker 1: they had they were just on the out. She was
28:04
Speaker 1: a v A nurse. Years later, Um, she went home
28:08
Speaker 1: to Virginia, she went in the park, she took out
28:12
Speaker 1: a gun and she shot herself well, you can't blame
28:16
Speaker 1: spangle for that, can you. Well, actually you can, because
28:20
Speaker 1: what happened was that Um the family kept She was cremated,
28:24
Speaker 1: but the family kept a lock of her hair. We
28:27
Speaker 1: analyzed her hair. It was loaded with Austini. He was
28:32
Speaker 1: actually poisoning his fiancee. When she was with him, she
28:37
Speaker 1: used to get all these headaches and she couldn't understand why.
28:41
Speaker 1: And after they separated, Um the headache seemed to stop.
28:45
Speaker 1: But he had poisoned her while they were going together.
28:50
Speaker 1: And uh, that's the separation between the separation and the poisoning.
28:55
Speaker 1: She just couldn't take it anymore and she killed herself.
28:58
Speaker 1: Her mom actually wrote a letter to Judge Michela, who
29:03
Speaker 1: handled his sentencing for the murders out on Long Island,
29:06
Speaker 1: and the judge read the letter. It was very moving,
29:10
Speaker 1: because you can imagine, I have no doubt that there
29:13
Speaker 1: are more than sixty victims murder victims of Dr Michael
29:19
Speaker 1: swing Oh listen. I certainly believe that he's a sick
29:24
Speaker 1: individual and that he did not there does not have
29:29
Speaker 1: the ability to comprehend what he did. If if, in fact,
29:32
Speaker 1: our society let him out, then I think they were
29:35
Speaker 1: probably more anger, but knowing that he was in a
29:37
Speaker 1: place that he'll never hurt anybody again, I'm good. He
29:44
Speaker 1: wanted me to call all the paramedics as witnesses for him,
29:49
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I think he began to realize
29:53
Speaker 1: finally that the paramedics weren't for him. Well, they're testimal.
29:57
Speaker 1: He was very compelling, it was. It was very thorough.
30:03
Speaker 1: The things they had to say about Swangle that were
30:05
Speaker 1: relevant in material to the case were so strange and unique,
30:10
Speaker 1: if you will, that it certainly had a ring of
30:13
Speaker 1: truth to it, because you wouldn't think anybody could make
30:16
Speaker 1: something up like that. We are talking about the angel
30:19
Speaker 1: of death. Dr Michael Swango accused sixty murderers within hospital
30:26
Speaker 1: settings and elsewhere. Was it necrophilia? What was his motive?
30:32
Speaker 1: And right there you were hearing about how a trial
30:36
Speaker 1: he actually wanted to call his coworkers thinking it would
30:40
Speaker 1: help him. Instead, their testimony was damning. What was their testimony?
30:45
Speaker 1: Bruce Sackmann, author of Behind the Murder Curtain. The testimony
30:49
Speaker 1: was that, um, they came into work one day and
30:52
Speaker 1: he had donuts for them, They ate the donuts, they
30:56
Speaker 1: got sick, and then he would call them up, and
30:58
Speaker 1: he would want to know all the details of their illness.
31:02
Speaker 1: What exactly happened? Did you throw up? Did you sweat?
31:05
Speaker 1: Did this happen? Did that happen? Asking all these deep,
31:10
Speaker 1: probing questions because he really wanted to find what happened
31:14
Speaker 1: as a result of him poisoning them well, and he
31:18
Speaker 1: wanted to go ahead, Nancy. He wanted to relive what
31:22
Speaker 1: what had happened. He enjoyed reliving the experience that people
31:28
Speaker 1: would go through when they died. He was the type
31:32
Speaker 1: of person who, if he had to speak to it,
31:34
Speaker 1: the family would give tremendous details about what happened when
31:40
Speaker 1: their loved one died so that he could relive the
31:43
Speaker 1: dying experience because he was so fascinated with the idea
31:46
Speaker 1: of death from the time he was very young. Why
31:50
Speaker 1: didn't the state pursue the death penalty. You've got all
31:54
Speaker 1: these poisonings of coworkers. We know of sixty murders, plus
31:59
Speaker 1: you got the girlfriend whose same m O was poisoned
32:03
Speaker 1: with arsenic What why aren't they seeking the deaf guilty
32:07
Speaker 1: on him? Well, I can tell you, and that's because
32:09
Speaker 1: he agreed to plead guilty and um that saved us
32:15
Speaker 1: going to trial. And as you know, Nancy, why could
32:19
Speaker 1: happen to save us from go? Hold on, hold on,
32:22
Speaker 1: hold on first to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, save
32:28
Speaker 1: us from going to trial? Save us. That's what trial
32:32
Speaker 1: lawyers do, That's how they make a living. They're supposed
32:36
Speaker 1: to go to trial, go to trial. That's right, Nancy.
32:40
Speaker 1: There are some cases in which a guilty plea might
32:42
Speaker 1: spare victims the horror and the trauma of having to testify.
32:45
Speaker 1: But these victims are deceased, so that isn't the case here.
32:48
Speaker 1: You could argue, well, the family members don't want to
32:50
Speaker 1: relive it. These are some of the decisions, as you know, Nancy,
32:54
Speaker 1: that go on behind the scenes, that oftentimes are frustrating
32:56
Speaker 1: to those of us looking in from the outside, attempting
32:59
Speaker 1: to figure out why a trial lawyer didn't go to trial.
33:02
Speaker 1: Just as a you know, we always try to extend
33:05
Speaker 1: professional courtesy. Would love to see what went into those
33:08
Speaker 1: decisions and what went into that decision to allow that
33:11
Speaker 1: type of Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy Patrick. Look, Wendy, I'm
33:16
Speaker 1: on your side. You're a California prosecutor. I'm a crime
33:20
Speaker 1: victim and I was a prosecutor my entire legal career. Okay,
33:25
Speaker 1: but I'm just you know, I'm putting it out there.
33:28
Speaker 1: I'm not taking sides or covering up for people. Sixty
33:32
Speaker 1: dead bodies that we know of, plus the girlfriend, plus
33:38
Speaker 1: the poisonings, Ashley Wilcott, I don't understand, and I'm calling
33:42
Speaker 1: everybody out now. In some jurisdictions they may not have
33:45
Speaker 1: the death penalty, and there's nothing the prosecutors can do
33:47
Speaker 1: about that. But with sixty bodies, I guarantee you that
33:51
Speaker 1: somewhere the death penalty exists for a guy that sat
33:55
Speaker 1: there in a chair and enjoyed watching his victims die
34:01
Speaker 1: one after the next, after the next, after the next,
34:03
Speaker 1: and to boot, he's a doctor, Ashley, and I would
34:07
Speaker 1: suggest that nationwide, we see those states that have the
34:10
Speaker 1: death penalty when you have a serial killer like this,
34:12
Speaker 1: do absolutely go after the death penalty. So I have
34:15
Speaker 1: to believe that there's some evidentiary problem issue that they
34:19
Speaker 1: preferred to take a plea. I don't know what it
34:21
Speaker 1: was with the dead bodies that they were having difficulty
34:24
Speaker 1: thinking they could prove, or if they ran into some
34:26
Speaker 1: evidence issues like it was incorrectly collected and wouldn't be admissible.
34:30
Speaker 1: I believe there had to have been something like that
34:33
Speaker 1: that caused the prosecution to say we need to accept
34:36
Speaker 1: the out of sixty. I know out of sixty. I
34:39
Speaker 1: don't believe that. I think somebody dropped the ball. And
34:42
Speaker 1: I know for a fact they have the death penalty
34:44
Speaker 1: in Ohio. I mean, Bruce Sackman, I'm I'm stunned why
34:49
Speaker 1: no one sought the death penalty on this guy. Oh,
34:51
Speaker 1: I actually uh ant, I believe it was the correct decision. Remember,
34:56
Speaker 1: this guy was sentenced the three consecutive terms without the
35:01
Speaker 1: possibility of parole, and he's now in super max prison
35:06
Speaker 1: in Florence, Colorado. He's never getting at And if you
35:09
Speaker 1: went to trial evil, you're right. But he didn't even
35:14
Speaker 1: you know, the only plead guilty to three murders plus
35:18
Speaker 1: the murder later in o Higher. But you remember there
35:22
Speaker 1: were a number of there's always a number of issues,
35:25
Speaker 1: particularly with toxicology, and you're talking about embomb tissue. Please
35:32
Speaker 1: stop at prison, stop at please, Dr William Moronney, will
35:37
Speaker 1: you please help me? This guy is the devil and
35:44
Speaker 1: you know, very often my view is I just want
35:47
Speaker 1: the conviction. I want the person brought to justice, and
35:51
Speaker 1: you know, the jury could do whatever they wish when
35:53
Speaker 1: it comes to sentencing. But I mean, come on, Dr Moroney.
35:57
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm projecting about my dad. I don't know, but
36:00
Speaker 1: sixty dead bodies and sitting there enjoying watching them die.
36:05
Speaker 1: This guy is satan. He's built above walking around, he's
36:09
Speaker 1: he's getting three hots and a cot and we're paying
36:13
Speaker 1: for it. But the technical issues are is if they
36:16
Speaker 1: brought at the court. The previous speaker is absolutely right,
36:21
Speaker 1: they didn't collect the tough In many cases, they didn't
36:26
Speaker 1: do thet You know what, you guys as natural deaths
36:32
Speaker 1: in your hair is full of I guess arsenic just
36:37
Speaker 1: appears in your hair naturally. You know what, I think
36:39
Speaker 1: the two of you have way too much education. I
36:43
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to this. A physician
36:46
Speaker 1: takes a Hippocratic oath, and you know he's aboued to
36:50
Speaker 1: to preserve and protect and provide the necessary means to
36:54
Speaker 1: sustain life. And here's this guy looking at that oath
36:57
Speaker 1: and just you know, basically burning it. He violated not
36:59
Speaker 1: only trust of the patients, but trust of his co
37:01
Speaker 1: workers certainly, well, you know what I have to agree
37:05
Speaker 1: with the joy all my guests today that for the
37:08
Speaker 1: most part, almost universally, doctors and nurses are there to help.
37:13
Speaker 1: As I pointed out with my dad saved his life
37:15
Speaker 1: over and never saved my life when I nearly died
37:17
Speaker 1: in childbirth. And then Swango comes along. All I can
37:22
Speaker 1: say is this, Dr Michael Swango rot in h E
37:30
Speaker 1: double l enjoyed dinner with Satan Nancy Grace Crime Story
37:36
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friends,