Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Carolyn Ryan - The New York Times & The Fight For Independent Journalism

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Interview Only w/ Carolyn Ryan - The New York Times & The Fight For Independent Journalism · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you
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  Speaker 1: and then call Chapter today at nine eight zero seven
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  Speaker 1: three four three nine eight five. So joining me now
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  Speaker 1: is Carolyn Ryan. I've had parallel tracks at major big
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  Speaker 1: news organizations covering politics, covering Washington. Carolyn is the managing
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  Speaker 1: editor for the New York Times, overseeing the Washington bureau
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  Speaker 1: politics and as you said, new York. I mean, what
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  Speaker 1: does that mean, Carolyn, when you say you oversee new York.
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  Speaker 1: Is it New York City bureau stuff political or is
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  Speaker 1: it more than that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's, first of all, thanks for having me on.
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  Speaker 2: So there we have about sixty staffers on our metro department,
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  Speaker 2: So that's really you know that, crime, transportation, politics. Quite frankly,
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  Speaker 2: the last six months even more have been politics, I
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  Speaker 2: mean New York politicians. I have to tell you my
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  Speaker 2: very first job at the New York Times, I came
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  Speaker 2: from the Boston Globe, was New York Politics editor. So
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  Speaker 2: it was Bloomberg, it was Charlie Rangel, it was Spitzer,
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  Speaker 2: it was Hillary Clinton. And it was the best job.
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  Speaker 2: And because New York has this outsize kind of drama
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  Speaker 2: to it and personality, and once again you have this
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  Speaker 2: movement that is emanating from New York and kind of
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  Speaker 2: an earthquake in terms of the New York primaries. And
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  Speaker 2: it's fascinating to me right now.
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  Speaker 1: You know Adam mcgerney, who got his start covering Albany,
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  Speaker 1: you know what, would tell me all the time he
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  Speaker 1: said New York politics was so much more fun. And
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  Speaker 1: of course he has war stories that go back when
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  Speaker 1: Tim Russard was a political operative and he goes, you
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  Speaker 1: have no idea, right, you know, type of thing, Adam.
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  Speaker 1: I have some great stories that I'll never share that
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  Speaker 1: came from Adam about Tim's days as a political operative.
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  Speaker 1: They're fantastic. But so look, you guys are I want
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  Speaker 1: to talk a little bit. We talk about independent media.
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  Speaker 1: Right The most successful independent news organization we have in
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  Speaker 1: the country's in New York Times. Right now, you guys
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  Speaker 1: are are on one hand, it's setting the bar high
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  Speaker 1: and well and the only thing I think we're all
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  Speaker 1: concerned about is that you're alone and that you know,
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  Speaker 1: because you know, you know, one isn't enough, right You
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  Speaker 1: need we need independent news organizations to feel empowered, up
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  Speaker 1: and down, up and down the food chain, if you will,
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  Speaker 1: of this, what do you see as this state of
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  Speaker 1: independent journalism at the moment. You know, I've always said
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  Speaker 1: the best time to get into journalism is actually when
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  Speaker 1: it's in a in a downturn. That's how I've been
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  Speaker 1: trying to tell young people don't give up on us.
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  Speaker 1: This is actually the best time to jump on. This
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  Speaker 1: is how I got my break. But how do you
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  Speaker 1: see the state and what what? What are what are
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  Speaker 1: some positive and what concern you?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question, and I think like you,
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  Speaker 2: I kind of obsess about the state of local media, especially.
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  Speaker 2: I came out of small papers in Massachusetts, came up
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  Speaker 2: to the Boston Globe.
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  Speaker 1: And in Massachusetts.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up on the Sash Shore and started
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  Speaker 2: covering small town life. There. My big break, I should
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  Speaker 2: tell you, Chuck Ted Kennedy was running for reelection in
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  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. Nobody wanted to cover him in the
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  Speaker 2: newsroom because he always cruised to reelection. I put my
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  Speaker 2: hand up and that was the year a man named
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  Speaker 2: Romney decided to run against him. So it became a
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  Speaker 2: national process. So but here's the thing, you know, The
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  Speaker 2: Times is has a set of principles that guide us.
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  Speaker 2: And whatever you think of The Times or their opinion page,
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  Speaker 2: the without fear of favor is who we are and
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  Speaker 2: the notion of being independent of any party of any
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  Speaker 2: ideology is something that the owners of this paper, of
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  Speaker 2: this news organization truly believe. But it's also those are
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  Speaker 2: the values that we really look to instill in people
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  Speaker 2: who come to work here who might not have had
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  Speaker 2: the benefit of working at the Boston Globe or Roll
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  Speaker 2: Call or coming up in these ways. And it's really learning,
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  Speaker 2: you know, fact based independent reporting and helping inform a
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  Speaker 2: public at a time when algorithms in social media tend
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  Speaker 2: to reward very different value systems, if you can even
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  Speaker 2: call it value systems.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that I always say the biggest
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  Speaker 1: thing I miss about being at a big news organization
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  Speaker 1: is the resources, you know, and it is it's something
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  Speaker 1: as much as you know, I can sit here and
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  Speaker 1: beat my chest about my independence and there's there is
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  Speaker 1: a lot to it. There are things I cannot I
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  Speaker 1: would like to do a dive on this, but you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of also starting trying to you know,
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  Speaker 1: run a business over here and do all this, and
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  Speaker 1: I don't have the research department, or I don't have
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  Speaker 1: this collaboration of a bureau where I can you know,
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  Speaker 1: or I can take two months off to do this.
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  Speaker 1: This is what a really good independent news organization can do.
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  Speaker 1: And my concern right now is that I think the
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  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal has resources and they use them. I
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  Speaker 1: think the Post has resources, and I hope they're going
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  Speaker 1: to continue to use them. We can. I think more
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  Speaker 1: of their issues are on the opinion side than anywhere
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  Speaker 1: else these days, and a little bit of the identity
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  Speaker 1: crisis that the Washington Post goes through every decade. Are
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  Speaker 1: we a local paper renational paper? You know, you guys
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  Speaker 1: gave up being a local paper long ago. I'm teasing,
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  Speaker 1: So I would love for you to explain just the
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  Speaker 1: level of resources that you have as a reporter at
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  Speaker 1: the times that you really don't have anywhere else.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it was really kind of moving last week someone
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  Speaker 2: you and I both know, Jonathan Swan. We had a
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  Speaker 2: book party because Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan have this
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  Speaker 2: book about the Trump administration, and he was reflecting on
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  Speaker 2: something that I think a lot of journalists think about
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  Speaker 2: these days, which is do you go to a sub
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  Speaker 2: stack or do kind of a newsletter go truly independent?
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  Speaker 2: But the things that come into play when you're doing
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  Speaker 2: independent reporting, especially hard reporting, investigative resources, frankly, legal resources.
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  Speaker 1: Now this is people I work on that harder than
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  Speaker 1: anything else, and it's the hardest not to crack. I
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  Speaker 1: know journalists who do a lot of epstein reporting, who
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  Speaker 1: literally can get insured because they do epsing recording.
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  Speaker 2: That's exactly right. I mean the other resources that are
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  Speaker 2: sort of breathtaking at a place like The Times that
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  Speaker 2: really invest in in journalism, you know, video investigations, being
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  Speaker 2: able to look at satellite imagery in the middle of
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  Speaker 2: a war and guide people into where a tax are
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  Speaker 2: being placed. Having investigative teams, you know, not just in
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  Speaker 2: New York, but overseas, having them in Washington. You know,
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  Speaker 2: some of our best stuff which I know, you know,
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  Speaker 2: Eric Lipton and others about Trump and the ways that
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  Speaker 2: he has benefited and really his fortune has ballooned during
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  Speaker 2: this administration. That takes a lot of time. It takes
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  Speaker 2: a lot of time to do really deep stuff, as
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  Speaker 2: Sue Craig did on Trump's taxes in the beginning of
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  Speaker 2: all of this. It takes time. Even uh, we can
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  Speaker 2: talk about this. We had a breakthrough story on the
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  Speaker 2: platinum race talking to women who had dated him, you know,
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  Speaker 2: you know as well as I do. Like that's a
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  Speaker 2: long time talking to people they might leave legal. We're
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  Speaker 2: lucky to have the best I think legal team. And
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  Speaker 2: I have to say, Chuck, when Trump was running again
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  Speaker 2: and some of the threats were beginning, uh, they really
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  Speaker 2: got ready and uh some of the stuff that we're
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  Speaker 2: seeing now play out at the Pentagon and elsewhere. You know,
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  Speaker 2: they were really kind of looking at scenarios and uh.
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  Speaker 2: And when you talk about are we alone, uh, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's really important right now for news organizations like ours
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  Speaker 2: and others to come together in these moments and stand
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  Speaker 2: up for these uh basic values and kind of issues
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  Speaker 2: of access and so some of that has been heartening
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  Speaker 2: when people do. Some of it's been a little disheartening
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  Speaker 2: when some of the some of our tradition allies have
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  Speaker 2: not been there.
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  Speaker 1: Interesting, I hear you on that, and I've looked there
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  Speaker 1: are other news organizations and this has been look the
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  Speaker 1: I hate sounding like some sort of radical on this,
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  Speaker 1: but I do now see that a publicly traded company
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  Speaker 1: owning a news organization, if it is not their primary business,
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  Speaker 1: puts that new news organization in a vulnerable position. And
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  Speaker 1: I've watched other news organizations pull back in certain ways,
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  Speaker 1: and it's very subtle, whether it's you know, having people
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  Speaker 1: tell reporters, don't do shouted questions when you're in the pool,
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  Speaker 1: don't be the person that asks a certain question of
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  Speaker 1: the day, don't create a confrontation. And I understand the
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  Speaker 1: business side of it, like I'm not I'm not crazy,
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  Speaker 1: and I think these there's been I look at these
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  Speaker 1: big media companies, you know, I'm I'm I'm What Disney
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  Speaker 1: ended up doing was disaster for all of us. It
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  Speaker 1: hurt all of us. I think Eiger now knows this.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's why Disney's fighting it, fighting what's going
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  Speaker 1: on at the FCC. Now. They made a mistake. I
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  Speaker 1: appreciate that they learned from their mistake that not standing
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  Speaker 1: up and fighting that Stephanopolis lawsuit damaged all of us.
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  Speaker 1: It absolutely had a big impact. And I don't think
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  Speaker 1: that was the intent. But they had shareholders, and I
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  Speaker 1: get it, and I really don't know. I mean, look,
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  Speaker 1: you guys are a publicly traded company, but there is
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  Speaker 1: this sort of independent ownership structure that does seem as
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  Speaker 1: and you don't have other businesses that are bigger revenue
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  Speaker 1: streams than the business that you have. Correct, I think.
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  Speaker 2: That's a really good point. I mean, the Sulzberger family
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  Speaker 2: I think is ride or die with the mission of
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: they will die on this hill. They are very committed
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  Speaker 2: to it. And that's a family that you know, for
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  Speaker 2: generations has been there. And the other thing, as you say,
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  Speaker 2: they are not looking to get government contracts. They're not
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  Speaker 2: looking to go to space. You know. They not to
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  Speaker 2: take anything away from people who are, but they are
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  Speaker 2: not what they care about and what is their identity.
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  Speaker 2: Their identity is journalism. Their identity is The New York
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  Speaker 2: Times in a way that is deeper. I think it's
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  Speaker 2: not a diversified business in that sense, and it's no
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  Speaker 2: question like where the values are. So I think that's right,
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  Speaker 2: and I think your observation is correct. I do have
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  Speaker 2: to say, and you're a student of this as well,
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  Speaker 2: there are some good things happening around the country, just
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  Speaker 2: in terms of nonprofit news organizations. People who have grown
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: up in newsrooms like ours and are you know, going
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to places where good journalism is really needed. And I
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  Speaker 2: think readers reward that and they know what is straight
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: up good journalism, and so part of what we're trying
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: to do. You know, you probably know this, but we
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: have Dean Baque, our former editor, is doing a bunch
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: of investigative projects around the country with local news organizations.
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  Speaker 2: We do it.
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  Speaker 1: I love that you're doing this. I mean, look, it's
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  Speaker 1: what the Pro Publica started doing this, and I'm so
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: glad you guys are are doing this. I will tell
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  Speaker 1: you, you know what. Look, I think I've said it out loud.
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  Speaker 1: I don't care. I hope somebody steals the idea. You know,
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  Speaker 1: my goal is to figure out how do you network?
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: How do we create a cooperative? You know, in the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: history of media, the UPI was a cooperative. It wasn't
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like a nonprofit like AP. It was actually
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: a for profit cooperative. And literally it was trading resources
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: and it was a way for individual local news organizations
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: to have some sort of national identity when they needed
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: it or some sort of resource when they needed it.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: But everybody also individually owned their own IP and individually.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I would love to see us be able
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  Speaker 1: to build a robust, independent network, and I think you
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: guys have this ability frankly, to essentially help grow a network.
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  Speaker 1: You don't have to own it. In fact, I don't.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's bad if it's the New York Times
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  Speaker 1: owns local news organization acts. It is more that The
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: New York Times is supportive of this cooperative of shared resources,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: of making sure there's legal insurance for small local independent
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: news organizations that can't afford that policy, but maybe as
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: a collective can, right. I think that's what's needed in
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: order to boost this. So I'm glad. You know, the
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  Speaker 1: more we can raise the profile of this of these
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: independent locals, the better.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's right. And you know,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: there are small ways, there are big ways. I mean,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: even doing you probably saw this, but like some of
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: our pulling for the midterms.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Have been huge partnerships with locals.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Portland Press Herald would not have access to that
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: kind of and we're glad to do it. We did
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: something in Pennsylvania the same way. And you know, at
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: the same time, we're also building hubs in some of
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: these places like Texas where we need to get deeper
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: into news, uh, state politics, et cetera, because our readers
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  Speaker 2: are demanding it. So that that's a big part of
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  Speaker 2: our investment.
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  Speaker 1: You brought up Maggie and Jonathan Haber Swan that's you know, yeah,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: move over Woodstein. We know of Haber Swamp. Look, there's
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the there's there's always, and it's just in journalism circles. Hey,
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  Speaker 1: did they hold their scoops for their.
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  Speaker 2: Book or this?
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  Speaker 1: And look, I don't even think it's a close call.
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  Speaker 1: I am on the side of this is much more
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: powerful coming out in one book than it would be
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: because you know, I'm of two minds on most Trump books.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me which is is?
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  Speaker 1: There are a ton of them, and I always say
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  Speaker 1: every book's the same in one respect. You won't believe
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  Speaker 1: what he tried to do. You won't believe how he stopped,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: how he was stopped, or why. You know, there's always that,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: there's this, you know, and it's always like so and
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: so actually stopped him, and you're like, so and so
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't think so and so would do that. Right,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: there's a little bit of that, and then there's the
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and then there's frankly, there are new anecdotes, but it
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't it isn't necessarily a new understanding. Does that make sense? Like?
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  Speaker 1: And that is the most fascinating thing about this book
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: is that if you covered the first term very closely, YEA,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: nothing in here is I don't want to say news
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: is the wrong way. I don't want to call it
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: non news. It is news. None of this is surprising.
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  Speaker 1: It's almost like, well, yeah, that's exactly what we saw.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: That you saw, That's what he was hoping to do
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: then and he couldn't quite do it. Now he did
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: it right, it is. It is certainly you see the
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: culmination of everything he tried to do in his first term,
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  Speaker 1: and I think that what I give. I'm glad this
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: is on the record on account, but explain your policy.
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  Speaker 1: What is that balance? How much did you have Maggie
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: and Jonathan check in with you? How often did they say, hey,
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  Speaker 1: we have we have something here. Did you rely on
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  Speaker 1: them to come to you when they thought, hey, we
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: shouldn't hold this, or did you regularly check in on them?
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  Speaker 2: Right? Right? People ask about this. First of all, I
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: just have to say, I don't know if you had
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: a chance to read the book.
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  Speaker 1: Yet, because in the middle of it it's, oh, it's
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  Speaker 1: wonderfully written to it's a nice read, it's yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And the level of detail the description of these scenes
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  Speaker 2: is I feel like the thing that it makes me
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: think about is Robert Carrow, just in terms of recreating
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: like you are in the situation room.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: And the best compliment they could get is that the
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Trump White House tried to create a rumor that there's
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: a secret recording, and you're like, oh, so it was
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: that accurate.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Anyway, that was pretty nice. Maggie and Jonathan, as you know,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: are our singular reporters. I don't think there's anyone like
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: them right now, and I feel like part of what
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: you see with them coming forward, you know, and some
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: of the excerpts we've run, but certainly in the book
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: is just the way inside this orbit. I mean for me,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: and this goes to your question about us talking, we
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: are talking to them constantly. Maggie is probably no even
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: when she's on book leave, she has more bylines than
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: like most ordinary report. She is just constantly. She's a
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: scoop machine, and that doesn't her brain does not turn off.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: So if you look at even the time she was
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: on book lead, scoop after scoop. And so for me,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: the best example when people ask about this, uh and
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: you saw it was the reporting that they did on
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: the run up to the war Netanyahu inside the situation
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: room and what was said to me that was revelatory
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: and eye opening, and they broke that in our paper,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you know, months before the book I think came out
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: last week, and that was back in March, I think, So.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: They did that, But how did that develop? Was that
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: just more of you guys. You guys were constantly going, hey, this, this,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: We got to do this because we're about to go
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to war.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Got yeah, I think it was six weeks after the
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: war started and they got so it felt incredibly timely
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: and urgent. And as you know, when you're writing a book,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you're having all these conversations, but you also have to
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: fact check like crazy, especially you're going to publish something.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You know in the New York Times, there's just a
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: whole process to confirmation of that stuff. So they were
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: doing it in real time, breaking off pieces, and this
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: was one where they really let us know, and that
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: felt like it landed, you know, when the country was
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: really grappling with how the hell did we get here?
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: What were the decision points? Well, here's the reporting in
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: real time. So you know, there's a level of depth
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: that comes with book reporting, and there's a level of
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: candor that sometimes you can get and I feel like
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: they are sort of model journalists and the way that
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: they balance both, you know, breaking timely news but also
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: delivering a book. As you say, that like has a
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: certain impact. And it felt to me like there was
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: a frame and an arc to that story and just
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: a precision of the reporting that you just don't see
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: anywhere else. I mean, even when the Trump people are
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: inside the situation room talking about the Epstein files and
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: like what to do about their boss and he's in
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: there and there's just to me, it was very eye opening,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: and you know, frankly, there's nobody like them.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Toddcast is brought to you
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  Speaker 1: by Quints. Look, one thing I love about summer is
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• 23:47
  Speaker 2: No.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: And I guess what I would say to anybody that's
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: like saying that they held for the book, and I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: would say is if the point is to make sure
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: people are reading your work and consuming your work, and
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: if these are vital stories for understanding where the Republic
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: stands literally at this moment, well the book is more
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: impactful way to do that.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's an interesting question for us
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: because you know the number of people who write books
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: on our staff. You know, I got to The Times
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: in seven and it's definitely more becauesn't the book deal
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: come with the Times hiring?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I'm half kidding right now, but certainly plenty of Times
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: reporters want to believe that, right, And so it's I
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: think you're about to bring up something that I am
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: curious about, which is you've got a lot of reporters
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that I want to write a book. You know, you
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: can't let them all go on bookly. But at the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: same time, you know, and and so that has to
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: also be a balance, correct.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that is a real balance. And also, you know,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: it's kind of fascinating to me just the kinds of
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: people go through a little sus here if they want
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: to write a book. Some people are covering a beat
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: like Trump, and they're like, I want to go deeper
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: on this, and here's how I want to do it,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: and here's how I'll manage my beat. Some people are saying,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I cover this beat, and actually I want to spend
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: a year writing about Buddhist poetry, and please give me
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: time to do that so that my brain won't hurt
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: in the same way. And so, and we've had people
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: write novels. We've had you know, people go into you know,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: you probably know Fleischmann is in Trouble. Taffy Ackner wrote
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: this novel that became a streaming series, and now you
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: have the interntion of Hollywood. And so it's not like
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it's not like it was when I was coming up
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: in kind of small town journalism.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Right, let's talk about what you guys are doing in polling.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you've been at the Times along time,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: and I'll just be honest. Before this partnership with Sanna,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Time's reputation in polling was not good. It is the
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: polling community. It's national poll was not great. It was
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: that CBS partnership. It was always there were more outliers
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that always felt like coming out of the tide was
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: one of the I remember back in the old Hoghline days,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: it would be like that, why does the greatest news
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: organization put up with this? That just it would be
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: ourd sort of and look, you guys done to me
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: at dramatic one to eighty. It's a much more rigorous
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: polling unit you've created. Nate Com really works hard on
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: these things, and as more news organizations can't afford quality
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: state polls. I mean, right now it's you and AARP
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: if I didn't have you ARP, and occasionally the Fox
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: News polling unit, who I think is a very good
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: polling unit. They're the only ones doing quality state level polling.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: This is pretty expensive of stuff, and you could easily
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: have a bean counter say to you, you're not getting
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: your bang for your buck here.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean this is a big investment area.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: There are a few investment areas I should probably mention.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: One is pulling, one is data, and we can get
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: to video, which is another huge area of expansion. But
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: it's really important for us because we have I think Chuck,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: you know I'm just thinking about midterm cycles. I think
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: we're spending double on polling right now. That's an investment
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: that the publisher was willing to make. And it's partly because,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: like other organizations, we set up a poll tracker. Let's
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: see what's happening in Michigan. You know you look at
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: quality polling. Yeah, that's right, No, you have.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: It's usually a bunch of partisan polls that you kind
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: of have to like, Okay, you know, how much do
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I weigh this?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: You know, you know all that stuff, and you get
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: really fluky stuff, and you sense how hungry the electorate
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: and the people who care about politics in that state are,
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: and they stop, they start sharing their own internals and
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: you feel kind of lost. Now, the good thing for
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: us is it feels like we can go out into
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: these states. You saw, we just did the six areas
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: where the Democrats are hoping to.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Make there there are two states that you didn't do that.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I went like, where is that state? You know, Michigan
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: and Nebraska.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: So Nebraska is interesting antand.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Where's my Michigan numbers? I know you there's no way
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: you're skipping Michigan. I'm waiting to see what you guys
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: are doing with Michigan here. But anyway, but in terms.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Of polling, look, the part of it is obviously these
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: races are of huge consequence, and what happens in the
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: midterms and in terms of the Trump agenda is huge.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: But honestly, it's also a way for us to take
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: the temperature on these other issues that are leaders are
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: so interested in. I mean, you've seen.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: This, but the.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Shift on Israel is like something I haven't experienced in
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a very long time.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: The only thing that has moved this fast culturally is
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: same sex marriage.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Same sex marriage.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of something that was a given and
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: then suddenly wasn't the right type of thing right where
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: everybody was over here, and then suddenly everybody went over here.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: It is I can't it's about That's always been the aways,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: always the issue. I always say, what is anything moved fast?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: It's like that is something that moved fast. I mean
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: we were banning them in four banning same sex marriage,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: and every swing state that like, every single this is
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: two thousand and four. This was that. I always say,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: this was nineteen eighty four, you know, and literally by
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: twenty twelve, it's legal everywhere you know.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: But the Israel thing is especially interesting, as you can
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: imagine being here in New York, you know, where it
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: was an issue on some of the college campuses, the protests.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: There's a significant Jewish demographic in terms of the electorate
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and the history of who represents New York and kind
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of the support for Israel, and just watching that get
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: wobbly and then the distance now is something that has
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: been very eye opening.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: But I do think, Carolyn, very recently I was covering
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I was in New York covering a pretty big gathering
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: of sort of Jewish activists. Yeah, and they did their
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: shout out to the local officials that showed up for it,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: and there was one and I was like, there was one,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and it was like one of those I'm like, you know,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: literally in nineteen ninety seven, it would have taken an
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: hour to read every local elected official that showed up
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: to this sent events. And it was just you could
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: see this is shifted not just in the grassroots, but
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: also in that sort of elite circles too.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Right, all right. So the so some of that investment
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: that we're making is to pick up on those things
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: and to help reporters dig deeper you probably saw Shane
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Goldmarker had a pretty good story where he went deep
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: on this whole question of Trump and the working class
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and kind of where are the shifts happening now in
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: terms of Trump losing support among the voters that shifted
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: toward him just as recently as twenty twenty four. And
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I gotta mention, as we're talking about polls
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: and politics, we had to tell these stories in ways
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: that are accessible to a new generation of news consumers.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: So a big area where we're investing in terms of politics,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: but in terms of news internationally and elsewhere is video.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Like you got to be able to put Nate Cohne
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: on video and explain to you what's going on and
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: why they should care, and to do that in a
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: way that's concise and authoritative. And so I think monthly
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: now we're doing about seventy five hours of video, which
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: is a huge increase, and so the newsroom has really
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: embraced it. I think there was a bally you know,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: people were a little tentative or as you know, you
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: gotta be there.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: No, I you know, I tell myself, I have to
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: tell remind myself of the break I caught, so when
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: we started a political website in partnership when I was
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: back at National Journal, we started in partnership with the
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Washington Post and ABC News and Newsweek. This is in
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, nineteen ninety six. And the dirty little
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: secret was nobody at the Washington Post, ABC or Newsweek
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: wanted to write for the Internet. So it was twenty
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: three year old me that got to write for the Internet.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And it was a whole bunch of us twenty somethings
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: that got to write for the Internet because none of
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: them under the auspices of this political website of the
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Washington Post, ABC News at Newsweek. And you know there
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: it's a story. I like to tell that, Like I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: have to tell myself, don't be a snob about technology.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: The biggest problem in journalism is we and I do it.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I roll my eyes at TikTok, right, I
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: look fully confess, right, oh geez, or really I got
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: to do an what do I what is what's the
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: best way to do? What's happened? What you know? And
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: like I you know, I get the and I'm like, yeah,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: David Broder thought writing for the Internet was a waste
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: of time in nineteen ninety five, right, like you know,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: so I you know, I don't want to be that guy.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And I think every I think now more and more
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: journalists realize that that you got to got to be
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: platform neutral. That's exactly right. And I say that. And
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I have yet to get on a twitch stream, have.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: You no, But I'm waiting for you the most. I
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: think that last year, I think this is wrong, but
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: maybe in the last sixteen months or so, one of
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: the most watched videos was Maggie Haberman after Trump's got
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: initially convicted in his New York trial, and she was
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: just walking you through what happened in the courtroom, what
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: it meant. And you think, what you have to do
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: is like you got to take you got to marry
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: the expertise of reporters like that with the forms that
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: feel accessible to whatever generation of readers. And so we're
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: always trying new things. We're always looking for ways to
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: reach new audiences. And you're absolutely right. I mean, even
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: like newsletters, bringing people into what we are doing and
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: making them feel like The New York Times is a
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: place that is helpful for their understanding of the world.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Talking about two sort of perception challenges and some of
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: them are real challenges and some of them are just
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: perceived and sort of manufactured. Look, ninety percent of the
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: criticism of the coverage of The Times is usually through
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the prism of the op ed page and the editorial page.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: It is not about the actual reporting or the journalists.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: It is about the perception, right, I mean, trust me,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: I sort of experience this myself through the prism of
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: NBC versus MSNBC, right, which we had this naive notion, Oh,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: MSNBC is just the op ed page of NBC News.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Remember we tried that spin for a while. That didn't
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: work out so well. But should the opinion section be
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: spot off completely and it should be still branded New
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: York Times Opinion? Should it be merged? I will tell
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: you where I struggle. And I say this as a reader.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I know there's a bright line between the editorial side
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: and the opinion side. But if I consume the app,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I love the app. I think you guys are the
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: best app of all of them, because there's still this
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: feeling of scrolling through a newspaper in that I can
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: go section to section. I enjoy accidentally reading stuff I
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: miss that.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: That's what I love it.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: So that's the beauty of this. But you guys spend
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of time for moting the opinion section. It's
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: clearly a traffic driver. And so that's always because to me,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: audience capture is a concern, and any of us doing
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: this in this news independent news world, which is you
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: were suddenly your audience is pushing you away from certain
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: stories because they won't like it if you go down
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: that road versus you know, if you go right, there's
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: all this. So what are your safeguards and would you
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: like to see more of a brighter line publicly between
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the opinion section, because you guys merge it. And sometimes
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I always say, you know, the photos of the opinion
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: writers seem to be bigger than the photos of the journalists.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm always like, I'd rather to me the journalists
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: are the stars of the Times, but I'm I'm gonna
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: want to be in stained wrench.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: They're sometimes better looking in their photos. I got to
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: say a couple of things. One I just want to
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: say one thing on audience capture because I think about
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: this a lot. There are a lot of things you
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: can criticize The New York Times for and people do
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: they have strong feelings about it. I do think we
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: are not we are a place that is sending people
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: to the congo for a bulla. We are people. We
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: cover classical music. We are not guided by audience captured.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: We're lucky to have this business structure where, you know
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: where I'm not looking to as a reporter say I
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: have to get my clicks or I have to get
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: page views or something. That's not the value system. I
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: would say this about the the opinion content is is
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: an important way for people to understand our analysis of
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: the world and to come to familiar voices many of you,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: many of whom you know, like a morning dowed on
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: a Saturday. People want. However, I do think that what
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: you're driving at is that we need to do a
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: better job. If someone like you, who's very sophisticated and
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: lives in the news world, you know you have this observation.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: People who are far less sophisticated about what is the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: New York Times need to understand the difference. And it's
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: something that we're really working on. We have pat heally
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: who you know, is you know doing it. We've got
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: to sort of guide the reader a little bit more.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: One thing we did. We made some changes to the
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: design of the opinion content to try to distinguish it
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: more from news. You know, the place where I really
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: noticed it after Biden's disastrous debate performance with Trump. You
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: sort of had a number of opinion columnists coming out
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and saying, you know, Biden, she's needs to step aside.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: So there was kind of a period of that and
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: so what should that look like on the app and
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: making sure that that feels different from our news coverage,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: which was also very dynamic. So you know, we're we
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: are the beneficiaries of having a very well resourced news
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: room in a very well resourced opinion department. But I
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: think you're getting at something important, which is articulating what
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: is different.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Well, we saw it with the Nick Christoff controversy, and
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: I think the question was are the standards of the
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: opinion section when it comes to fact checking? You know,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: how much do we know for sure it's the same standards,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: right because we know and I think it's to me
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: it was a fair question to ask if you're from
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: the outside, because we know a columnist gets a bit
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: more leeway, right A than somebody writing even news analysis,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: right A. Peter Baker news analysis piece is going to
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: get the fact checker scrutiny that And I'm not saying
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: fact checks aren't getting the scrutiny on the opinion page,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: but there's sort of that's it's just slightly different. I mean,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: you know so, but is it you know, in that
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: specific case, was the good old fashioned New York Times
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: fact checkers on this or was it treated slightly differently?
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah? The I mean, I'm obviously not involved in the
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: production of the opinion pieces or Knicks piece. I know
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: that they obviously have spoken to this, and they have
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: a fact checking system. I think what you're getting at
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: is a little bit different, which is point of view
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: and coming at something and presenting it. It's not so
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: much do they have fact checkers. It's presenting something with
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: a point of view and through that framework, that's the
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: essence of what they do. What we're doing is obviously
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: something different.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: No, And I just think that that the problem is,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I know you're doing that. I went through this argument
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: all the time internally, and it took frankly, and NBC
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: didn't act until it's been too late, Right, They didn't
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: spin off ms NBC until it was too late. I
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: think personally, But it was the same issue, which is,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: we know there's a difference, but what does the public
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: see right? What is the you know? And I always said,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: the peacock was on my show and the peacock was
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: on Rachel's show, and the peacock was and there are
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: plenty of people who don't see the distinction. And why
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: are we making the viewer do more work or the
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: reader do more work to understand your system right type
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: of thing? And that's always to me, that's the line.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like you have to find it, find a
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: way to walk well.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: I get that. I mean, part of what you're getting
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: at is news literacy, and part of what we need
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: to do better. I think in what we are investing
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: in doing better is telling our story, you know, basically
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: explaining and describing how we do our work. And it's
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: sort of amazing to me still how many people imagine
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: that reporters are at their desk coming up with takes
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: when they're out you know, in the country or they're
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: out on Capitol Hill and they are checking things with sources.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: And but we have we you know, I need to
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: cop to it. I've been in this business for a while.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think we've done a great job of explaining
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: what it means to be a reporter, what it means
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: to confirm facts, what it means to get a story
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: ready for a place like NBC or the New York Times.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And that's partly why we are trying to, you know,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: be really forthright. Some of the videos that we're doing, frankly,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: are just explaining what we do and want answering the
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: kinds of questions that you have, like about like how
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: do we handle it when someone wants to write a book, because,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: as you know, on social media, some narrative will take
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: hold and it could be wildly off, but it's up
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: to us to respond.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: One are the other things that I think I worry
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: about with myself and my own coverage is geography, capture,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: if you will, right, and that is you know, I've often,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I've often joked if the if the capital of the
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: media world were Topeka instead of New York City, I
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: promise you the coverage of religion would be different, that's right,
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: And that because you just the local culture of church
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: going and stuff would be different. It would sort of
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: work its way into the system, right. So I have
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: been heartened by one of the trends that I've noticed
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: at the Times, which is that you are trying to
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: have people geographically located outside of the Assela corridor, Like
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: I whether it's I'm trying to remember the reporter, but
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: there was a one of your political reports based in Cincinnati,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, good, I want to I want to
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: know that your industrial Midwest reporter actually lives in the
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: industrial list, right, and those sort of things. How how
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: much are you doing that? What is your balance of
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: political staff not based in DC in New York versus
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: based in DC in New York.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a huge effort of ours and
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: frankly an obsession of mine. The kinds of conversations that.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: You and I have had this conversation years ago in
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: different ways when we're back when we were both sort
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: of is there ways we could work together better? Like
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: there can we do some things? Because we had the
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: same issue we wanted to be we you know, we
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: had our embed program that was that had a lot
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: of success with it, and you guys did I mean,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: we were constantly worried about this issue. But back then
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: you still felt you needed alliance share of these reporters
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: in your own newsroom in New York and d C. Right,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: you couldn't afford to let them live in these other locations.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: A since that's changed, that's changed.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: And you mentioned religion. I mean one of our best reporters,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Ruth Graham, is down in Texas. She covers you know,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: mainly covers Christianity, and the context that she has with ministers,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: with pastors, with heads of cons congregations, members of congregations,
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: the conversations that she has. You know, you call Ruth
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Graham and she's sitting in the kitchen of a pastor
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: of a church who's going to be in a story.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: And it's just a different level of trust. It's just
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: a different level of familiarity. Uh. The people we have
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: in Georgia, you know, the investment that we've made there
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: and in some of the other states, like in the
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: SEC Corridor, which you're familiar with. Uh, it just it
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: really makes a difference. And then when something happens like
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: in Rome Georgia, when they have COVID outbreak or some
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: of the political fights, you know, you have a different
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: level of granularity. These are people who are living in
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: these places. They know the cost of living in these places.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: They know, uh, frankly where the traffic, uh, you know,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: problems are the airport. It's just a different context. So
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I think Arthur sulsworger Ag is really thoughtful about this.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: We want to be everywhere, and we don't want to
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: be what they used to call a toe touch. You know.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Johnny Apple would come in and.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Parachute in and it did change my line there. It
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: is in Sarahtoga.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: And readers see through that, you know immediately. Uh. So
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: it really matters if you're in places like Ohio, if
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: you're in places like western Pennsylvania, and uh, readers sense it.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: And it's it's actually good for us. Uh. It's it's
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: kind of a way of giving a reporter and experience
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: and also hiring people or hiring people who are in
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Texas who know Texas right, you know, and it's really
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: helping our coverage overall.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Well, and I'm just going to be crass about it.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: It's when you're in when you're kind of by yourself
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: in a geographic location away from the main the main
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: parts of where the decisions are being made and stuff,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: you really find out who can sink or swim and
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: you realize, I mean the stars you develop and the
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: stars we were able to develop with our embeds, Like
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: we just through these. You know, obviously you try to
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: hire people that you thought could be could handle it.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: But you know, every best reporter that we were able
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to develop over the last twenty years, almost all of
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: them came through our MBED program because frankly, they had
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: to go and they had to go do that. And
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you just have to go start meeting people.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: I'll give you four or five people to start calling,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: but after that, just you know, go to go, go,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: And it's a great way to separate, you know, basically
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the career journalists from those that don't have it.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right. Those and you know, we elevated somebody
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: out of Florida, and you know, the politics editors saying
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: how they knew she would do so well because the
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: way that she owned Florida, and that's just like she
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: knew everyone, she knew how to get to them, she
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: knew who to trust, and like, you know, I felt
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: like people who came out of Massachusetts and New York politics,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: you've got to see a little bit of what they
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: could do. And so we want to do that all
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: over the country, and we're lucky enough to have kind
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: of areas where we're growing these hubs, and that, to
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: me is the future. And we can also work in
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: partnership with some of the local news or is it.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Where are you strongest outside of New York and where
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: are you looking for? Where do you where are you
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: h This is your time to ask your bosses right
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: publicly for more investment. Where do you feel a little underserved?
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Love? I love that we're investing in Texas for a
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: couple of reasons. I think it's the best story right now,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: just in terms of the future of America where things
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: are going. You sort of have everything there. Uh you urban,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: you got agricultural, you got demographic groups. So we're creating
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: news hub there. So that means that you'd be doing
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: deeper political stories, but you also the news of the day.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: If something happens, people who know those commit who know
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Houston or Fort Worth going to be on it. So
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: to me, that's a really good model.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: So you'll get a Texas perspective on a spike in
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: gas prices as well as your sort of right the
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: typical stuff that had been done. And I know that
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: that seems like a silly thing, but geographic diversity and
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: reacting to a story. I mean, that's the American political electorate.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: You've got to have those things.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, the other places where we're doing that are
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: like agricultural manufacturing. You know, we're strong in the southeast
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: part of the US, and we're getting stronger and stronger
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: in the Midwest. Minnesota certainly like Wisconsin. Jullie Bosman could
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: kind of own Wisconsin, so some of those areas. The
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Mountain West is also, like generationally and growth wise, a
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: really important area for US. So it feels to me
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: like a true national strategy. You want to have somebody
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: in every state, and you want to keep developing the
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: next generation of journalists and instilling those values out there.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: I think one of the hardest things to do right
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: now in covering Washington and the Trump administration is dealing
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: when dealing with a source that you know is lying
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: to but it is the on the record statement, it
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: is the or even on background explanation, and certainly you
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: guys do a good job of identifying, you know, here's
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: you know it'll be this, and then here's this you
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: know statement from that. I think this has been a
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: very difficult thing for all of us in journalism to
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: convey the sort of this is unprecedented, this is unique,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: this is different, this is and I know I'm out
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: of vocabulary, you know, type of thing. And you know
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: there's always been this pressure you guys get put under.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Just say it, say it in the lead of the story.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: You know, the Trump administration lied about this today, you know,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and you're like, look, the L word is a you know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: that's motive. And you know, yeah, I'm always you know,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you know, you gotta you can't. None of us know
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: how to crawl inside other people's heads, right, you know,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: we don't know is somebody misleading us on purpose? Maybe
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: they've been misled, right, There's always there's a potential explanation
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: in you the journalists can't eliminate any of the outcomes.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: But there's a pattern here, right, And we know there's
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: a pattern here. And while you can show a pattern
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: maybe every once in a while, like Peter Baker will
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: do terrific you know, news or news analysis that sort
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: of strings all this together, But the day to day
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: it's a real challenge. I mean, is it. Do you
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: have a hard and fast rule? I mean, how have
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: you guys wanted to tackle this when it's just sort
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: of literally they want to tell you the sun is
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: rising in the west. You know this isn't true, but
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: you have to cover what they're saying.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I was part of the I think
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: the first conversation about whether to put Trump lying on
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: the front page back in twenty sixteen.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: Which was I used falsehoods and I got criticized for
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: using falsehoods. And that's what I used in my infamous
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Kelly An back and forth. I said, you know that
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: was you know, and there's a ref during the VIY
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I'll never fag. I thought about saying lie, and I didn't.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not handing her a defense to
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: hang herself on. How do you know we're lying? That's
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: you know that I can't believe you're calling somebody a liar, right,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: you get. I wanted to avoid going down that rabbit
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: hole and keep the focus on the on the on
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: the on the falsehood. And I got critique for like
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: pulling my punches, and I'm like, I didn't feel like
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I pulled a punch. I was being as accurate as
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: I could be that moment.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. I mean in terms of accuracy,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: you have to be able to show intent. The story
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: that we called Trump described him as lying, which you'll remember,
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: is when he came out and it was over the
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Birther thing, his attack on Obama and said it started
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: with Hillary Clinton. And so we did a very direct story.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Dean Beckey, Michael Brow and I had a really long
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: conversation about how to do that and how to make
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: sure we were signaling to how we knew that and
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, quite honestly, some of the journalistic
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: conventions and forms were not ready for Trump in terms
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: of this very question that you're getting at, and there
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: was a little bit of a way, I think initially
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: throughout the media that the forms themselves lagged what people
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: What people want is very direct, I don't think hyperbolic,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: but very direct description of what is happening and what
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: we can say.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I have said that, yeah, I have said, for instance,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: I will confess to have rounding the edges over the years,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: right because you're you know, look, I took the very
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: definition of being a broadcaster at a broadcast network, which
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: meant I had a broad audience. I was trying to
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: speak to the largest group of people to trust or
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: at least at least consider what I was reporting to them,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: et cetera. So I did believe you had to round
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: some edges because I'm widening the aperture. And then there
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: was a point I'm like, you know, we have to
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: stop rounding the edges, right, And now it's a fine line,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: like it doesn't mean you're between being straightforward and coming
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: across as an activist.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right? I know, I think that's right. And look,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: there's going to be scrutiny of there's going to be
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of wordsmith thing, and I get it. People
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: really care about how we describe this stuff. I feel
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: proudest of our reporting about the Department of Justice and
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: what they are doing, and with that level of precision
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: and direct about how the Department of Justice is being
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: used by this president. That's the kind of thing I think.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Joe Cohn, who's our executive editor, he does not want
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: language to be hysterical. He wants it to be very
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: direct and forthright, and that's what we're trying to do.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: No, the words themselves matter, right because it is it is.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: It's like, you don't want to make it fuzzy, right,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: You're not trying to blur things. But it's the high
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: it's it. It's the hyperbole, Like it's why I think
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: the corruption stories don't hit anymore. And so I think
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: the corruption stories don't hit it's because we've it's the
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: it's my it's a my broken windows theory of corruption,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: of political corruption. Meaning let's take the Ruben Diego story. Okay,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: so Ruben Diego is being investigated for basically using his
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: political campaign fund for personal expenses. If you scrutinize ninety
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: seven of one hundred senators in how they use their
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: campaign money, I'm sure they've all done this, and some
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: are more abusing, abusive of the process. Right, And so
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that we've you know, over time,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: we've even us as reporters. You're like, yeah, that's just
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: your typical that's the typical congressman rip off. Part of
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: this it's the price of doing business, right, which is
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: that's a you know, another plane land safely at national
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: story and it's unfortunate that it is. Right, it goes
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: to it's like the broken windows theory. Right, if you
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: let a few, if you don't repair the broken windows,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: eventually people will stop caring if something's happening in that community.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: If I think we've done this with corruption because there's
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: so much low level sort of legalized wealth creation in
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: the political space or expense abuse or whatever you want
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: to call it, that it has numbed us to the
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: big stuff. And I don't have a good answer to this.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's the genius of Trump, right, which is
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: there's you know, he is always able to say what about?
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: What about is and is always technically there. Well that
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: is true. You know, Hunter Biden did make money off
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: of his last name selling paintings, right, and it is
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: nowhere near the corruption of the crypto side of things. Right.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: So I don't have a good answer to how to
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: make how to but I think that's my theory is
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: why this doesn't land the way it did in the seventies.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I you know, we don't have time to test this,
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: but I would guess I would just say a couple
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: of things so that one, I think the scale of
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: what Trump himself, the ways that he's benefiting, including our
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: story today about just I mean, it's eye popping amount
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: of money.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: But they're numbers that don't even seem real. So you're
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: just like, Wow, the president of the United States pocket
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: at two billion dollars as president.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: What It's very difficult, but I would says an impeachment
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: investigation started yet, like it's one of that I don't
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: be like, you know, it's like, you know, there's a
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: reason jd Vance said Nick Nixon would be a ten
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: hour story, yeah, compared to this.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Well there, I guess I would push back on a
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: couple of things. One, I was really struck this week
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: that the New York Post editorialized in favor or in
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: support of some of our investigations into some of these
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: questionable practices. I think that it resonates and check this
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: is a whole different show or conversation. But I think
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: some of the agitation against the establishment is because people
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: are really hurting economically and they're seeing people get rich
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: in this way. So I think it resonates. It's just
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: it's not in the immediate way that you might have
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: seen in the seventies.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: No, And I think that's right. It's taken a different
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: It is sort of it's like, well, I can't get
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: to Trump, so I'm going to get to you congresswoman,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: to get like you know what I mean, Like there's
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: a you know, you know I can't I can't get
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: to Trump. So sorry, Michael Bennett, I'm not promoting you
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: to governor. You know that's just not going to happen.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: You're part of this system. You you either didn't do
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: enough to prevent it and you're a bad police officer,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: or you're on the take too right.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: Or you're not fighting it in a way that feels
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: like if you look at Colorado last night, why did
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: the AG do better then? But it's because he's seen
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: as fighting it, and I think a little bit of
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: the frustration. I think it's not entirely unrelated to corruption.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny, Carolyn, I'm like had a flashback
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: to the Tea Party, because the biggest hit on both
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Michael Bennett and John Hickenlooper by their opponents were their
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: votes to confirm a handful of Trump cabinet secretaries. They
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: voted to confirm the supposed less controversial ones like Brook
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Rollins at USDA or and I'm like, boy, I remember
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: when that was a litmus test on the right. When
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: you've voted to confirment Obama cabinet secretary, how dare you?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Type of thing? This is where there are the similarities
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: we're starting. You know, nothing is exactly the same, nothing
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: is a mirror image, but there's certainly a reflection there
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: that looks familiar.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, and you know what does that become
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: that's where the energy is right now, does that become
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: a bigger part of the identity of the Democratic Party
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: or does it break away in some way? And it's
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: really unclear to me how the Democratic establishment is going
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: to respond.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: I think it depends what the results are in November.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's a fascinating the
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: House becomes a fascinating place on the Democratic side. If
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: the Democrats do not win the Senate, they win the Senate,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: then there's probably a little bit more. The fight doesn't
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: begin for a couple of months between the but if
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: they only get if they don't succeed the way, then
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: the finger pointing right and the cross you can picture that.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here on this and
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: it's slightly different, but it's the.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Is it.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say not being at the Pentagon
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: is a good is somehow a good thing for reporting,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: But what would you say is being missed by not
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: being there, and is there an upside to sort of
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: not having to be force fed the kool aid?
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think our reporters are such that
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: they would not force fed.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: They're not kol A drinkers, right drinkers I would give you.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I think our access we have protested and challenged the
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: restrictions somebodys.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: You're you're the almost the financial lead here, so it's
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: an important part. You guys have to do this on
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: behalf of all of us. So I'm glad you're doing it,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: just though I'm curious, like in some ways it's not
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: going to prevent good reporting.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: Is it.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Well, you're making a really interesting point. I mean, I
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: do think the notion of a policy put forth by
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: the federal government saying that you cannot speak to members
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: of the military who are not authorized is you know,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: unconstitutional and frankly ridiculous and violation heartstecks. But the thing,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: but to your point about New York Times reporters and
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: the investment in good beat reporting around the Pentagon and
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: within the administration, what story do we break in the
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: midst of all these Pentagon cracks downs, throwing us out,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: taking away our badges. It was one of the most
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: dramatic stories out of the Pentagon, which was they were
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: about to give a briefing on China to Elon Musk
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: when Elon was riding high. And that's a story that
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: you break because of devotion, conscientious cultivation of sources within
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: the military. And that's reporting. And so as you say,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: reporting is not being force fed something at a press conference,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: that's reporting. That's what we're going to keep on doing.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things that's like I
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: just I think it's important to fight for access to
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: these spaces hard stop. It is not an excuse not
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: to report.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it goes back to what we were saying earlier,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: we're going to fight for access. We also need to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: explain to the American people and people beyond what is
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: reporting like and what your point is like, We're going
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: to report the hell out of these stories wherever we are.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: However we can how.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Do access matters? To a point I always say, you know,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: people talk about access journalism and like, you know, if
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: you got rid of access journalism, you wouldn't have a
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: sports reporter in the country getting you any information, because
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: you know, that's a world that if you're not allowed
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: in the facility, and those are private organizations. You're just
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: not going to get information it is. Yes, you can
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: source build it is. You know, I always said it's
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: at least us political reporters have the power of a
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act. You know, I can't make Dan
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Schneider do anything via a Foyer request when he was
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: the owner of the Washington football team, but you can
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: force the Pentagon to have to disclose them.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: They may drag their feet, they may do all these things,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: but there's some And so I'm always I don't want
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: to be an absolutist about access journalism because there's certain
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: beats you have to be there, that's right, you know,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: the body matters, and I think that explaining that's why
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: I hate the term access. Look, we know who the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: access journalists, but you know what, journalism needs those folks too.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. People need a lot, they need a lot
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: of entry points to this stuff. We need, Yeah, we
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: need vishability into these worlds. And you and I are
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: both sports fans, so a good beat reporter on a
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: team you care about that's priceless too.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: It is, and you do trust them in the same trust.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: It's really Frankly, Caroly is what I think when I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: always aspired to We wanted to be as trusted as
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: the beat report, the sports beak reporter for our favorite team.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: And you're right, there is something. There is something to that.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, well this was great.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: I The only thing I left on the table was,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: you know, is the It's going to be a question
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: about the athletic Are they bully New York Times reporters
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: or are they a separate entity.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: They're run as a separate entity. They're they're they're a
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: separate newsroom. Uh they have uh kind of they were
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: built up differently out of local markets and they have
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: a very presence in London and uh football over there,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: So they're run separately from us. Uh. You know, as
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: much as I care about their coverage of the Red
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: Sox and Wimbledon and all that stuff, I have nothing
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: to do with it. Uh And uh, you know, they're
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: growing and having a real impact and uh you know,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: but they are they're entirely separate, different newsroom, different union,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: different work forms. Like most people in New York Times
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: reporters come into the office and so forth, they're out
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: covering a team. It's just a whole different system.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: Right right, Great to talk with you. Great catching up.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love seeing you on all your good work.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, give me I just need some Nebraska.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: I'd also like Kansas. That's an obsession of mine. Mississippi.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with that one too. So you know, you
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: got a few mole and don't forget our independent friend
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: in Montana who might be making a little bit of
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: an interesting point. Interesting. We got to get Nate on it, man.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: We got three or four more states. We got to
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: add to the bunch.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: Better than all right, we'll do.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: It's great to see you.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: Take care