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Jessie Tu on writing real characters, obsession with older women and being seen as an author · The Book Deal

0:56
Natasha Rai: Jessie Tu is a journalist for Women's Agenda.
0:59
Natasha Rai: Her debut novel, A Lonely Girl Is a Dangerous Thing, won the ABIA 2020 Literary Fiction Book of the Year.
1:06
Natasha Rai: The Honey Eater is her second novel Hey, Jessie Tu.
1:10
Natasha Rai: Welcome to the Book Deal podcast.
1:12
Jessie Tu: Hi, thanks for having me.
1:13
Natasha Rai: Oh, my pleasure.
1:14
Natasha Rai: It's been a while since we've had a chat.
1:16
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
1:18
Natasha Rai: Um, so we always start our episodes to inviting our guests to give us an elevator pitch for their novel.
1:26
Natasha Rai: So your latest novel that's out is The Honey Eater.
1:30
Natasha Rai: So could I please have your elevator pitch for that, Jessie?
1:34
Jessie Tu: Sure.
1:34
Jessie Tu: It's, uh My elevator pitch would be a young Asian Australian translator has a very intense falling out with her mentor
1:49
Natasha Rai: Oh, okay, good.
1:50
Natasha Rai: That's it.
1:53
Natasha Rai: Intriguing.
1:56
Natasha Rai: Um, so I read it when it first came out.
1:59
Natasha Rai: Um, I was at your launch actually in Sydney.
2:01
Natasha Rai: Um, and I loved it.
2:04
Natasha Rai: And actually I have some questions that I'll, I'll have to ask you offline because it'll be spoilers.
2:09
Natasha Rai: Um, how long did it take you to write it?
2:13
Jessie Tu: I'd say from the big- very beginning, the first draft to it coming out in booksho- bigs- bookstores, three, three and a half
2:26
Natasha Rai: Years?
2:26
Natasha Rai: Years, yeah, yeah.
2:27
Jessie Tu: Mm.
2:27
Natasha Rai: And what's your process?
2:29
Natasha Rai: Like, did you start, take a break from it, edit?
2:33
Natasha Rai: Like, what, what How did you...
2:34
Natasha Rai: Yeah, how did you do it?
2:36
Jessie Tu: Yeah, so this one, like every book, they're so different.
2:39
Jessie Tu: I really don't have a, a routine when it comes to creating a new book.
2:46
Jessie Tu: I think every new idea or book comes along in its own way, and this one really started from travel diaries that I took while I was overseas.
2:55
Jessie Tu: Because, yeah, because the book is in three sections.
2:59
Jessie Tu: One of the sections that kicks off the book is set in Paris, and I did take a trip with my mum, like the protagonist does, with my mum, um, to Paris, uh, several years ago.
3:10
Jessie Tu: And I It actually maybe even started off, like, as wanting to be a sort of travel memoir.
3:19
Jessie Tu: Like, I wanted to process some deep feelings I had, complicated feelings I had, uh, while I was on that trip.
3:28
Jessie Tu: Uh, but I think it w- it became It was a It was so- sort of plotless, and so I just took those memories that I had and then put a really, some intense plotting, and I made the characters, you know, have high...
3:42
Jessie Tu: I raised the stakes, um, gave them more interesting lives than I did, than I do.
3:47
Jessie Tu: And, um, and then really I remember even working on it during COVID, I really just set myself the task of writing 1,000 words a day, because I know that, uh, the initial draft was, like, 30,000 words, and I needed to increase that obviously, you know?
4:03
Natasha Rai: Mm.
4:03
Jessie Tu: Um, and so I just made myself pump out 1,000 words a day, um, which I never do.
4:09
Jessie Tu: Like, that's not how I generally work.
4:11
Jessie Tu: Uh, but for this story, that's how it, how, that's how the genesis evolved.
4:16
Natasha Rai: And on the days you couldn't get there, did you just kind of keep pushing, or were you
4:20
Jessie Tu: like,"I'll try-" Yeah, I did.
4:21
Jessie Tu: Okay.
4:22
Jessie Tu: Yeah, I did, Tash.
4:22
Jessie Tu: I just- Mm.
4:23
Jessie Tu: And, and the thing with pushing is, like, I just had to say,"Okay, it doesn't matter if this is crap." And obviously 75% of it is crap, but Maybe even 95%, but you do it because there's that possibility of, you know, gems inside all of that crap.
4:41
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
4:41
Natasha Rai: And you, at the time you were writing it, did you have a publishing deadline, or were you writing it because you just wanted to write it?
4:47
Jessie Tu: Yeah, the latter.
4:48
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
4:48
Natasha Rai: Mm.
4:49
Natasha Rai: Um, so one of the things I've noticed about you,'cause you've got two novels.
4:53
Natasha Rai: Um, your first one is A Lonely Girl Is A Dangerous Thing.
4:56
Natasha Rai: Excellent, excellent title.
4:58
Natasha Rai: Did you come up with that?
5:00
Jessie Tu: Yes, I did.
5:01
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
5:01
Natasha Rai: It's such a good title.
5:03
Jessie Tu: Oh, thank you.
5:04
Natasha Rai: How did Like, w- w- was it, like, just something that came to you as you were writing, or did you always know that was gonna be the title?
5:10
Jessie Tu: Oh, I think I definitely It came out It, it was inspired by, um, Eimear McBride's, uh- uh, Girl is a Half-Formed Thing.
5:19
Jessie Tu: You know that title?
5:20
Jessie Tu: Yes.
5:20
Jessie Tu: Yes, I do.
5:20
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
5:20
Jessie Tu: So I, I thought that was such a, there's a nice rhythm to that-
5:23
Natasha Rai: Mm
5:24
Jessie Tu: to that title, and then I just kind of expanded on that really.
5:28
Natasha Rai: I lo- oh my God, I love that book so much.
5:31
Natasha Rai: So I was re- I read it, I think very, very fast.
5:34
Natasha Rai: I had to keep telling myself to calm down and slow down because it was so propulsive.
5:38
Natasha Rai: Um, and h- the character's name is Jenna, and, um, I remember sitting in a park in Sydney before going into training and reading a section and then like sobbing while this person, who was I think a rough sleeper, was just staring at me- while I was just sobbing.
5:58
Natasha Rai: And I'm like,"Okay, I shouldn't be sobbing here because, you know, this person probably doesn't have anywhere to sleep, and here I am sobbing over this- girl." Anyway, um, but I think one of the things that struck me about both your novels is, um, how beautifully you write relationships, um, especially the mother-daughter relationship.
6:18
Natasha Rai: Like, there's just so much in it that fascinates me in terms of like the kind of push and pull between the mother and daughter, and how much love there is, and also I guess, I don't know if hatred is too strong a word- Oh,
6:33
Jessie Tu: I don't think it's strong.
6:34
Jessie Tu: I think it's accurate.
6:35
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
6:36
Natasha Rai: But it, there's both in that very kind of, I don't know, I think if anyone's ever had a mother- Yeah or has had that relationship dynamic, like there are times you like really, really dislike each other, um, and you find it difficult to figure out what you like about each other, and it just felt so- Natural is not the right word, but realistic, like that dynamic of, um, that push and pull.
7:01
Natasha Rai: And, and you've spoken pretty openly about that dynamic yourself.
7:06
Natasha Rai: So how do you...
7:08
Natasha Rai: Like, is that always, like, your starting point, or do you suddenly realize as you're writing that there's a mother-daughter relationship that you want to explore, or is that just something you're working through?
7:18
Natasha Rai: Like how does, how does that go for you?
7:20
Jessie Tu: Do you know what?
7:21
Jessie Tu: I'm very much the firm believer that when you sit down to write as a creative or you sit down to paint as an artist, whatever, um, whatever you're deeply interested in will just come out.
7:33
Jessie Tu: You can't help it.
7:34
Jessie Tu: And, um, every single story that I've sat down to write somehow always there, there's always a mother that springs up, and I think th- it just must be that because, um, I've had such intense, uh, complicated feelings that are perhaps still unresolved between my mother and I, even though I've had 20 years of therapy, and you know, my mother and I are at a place where we're incredibly healthy.
7:59
Jessie Tu: I call her every day.
8:01
Jessie Tu: But that hasn't always been the case.
8:02
Jessie Tu: Like, um, I, like, I was a voracious diary keeper in my...
8:07
Jessie Tu: I still keep a diary, and, um, in my teenage years, I'd say, like, um, the, the, the high school years, the six or five, five, six years of high school, I filled in 20 notebooks of diaries, and I'd say to you, Tash, that 18 of them were just full of like swearing at my mother.
8:24
Jessie Tu: Like, I'm not ki- I'm not kidding you.
8:26
Jessie Tu: They're, they're like violently, vehemently like,"I hate my mom." Like it's just really violent teenage, um-
8:33
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
8:33
Jessie Tu: feelings.
8:33
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
8:34
Jessie Tu: Um, and yeah, it's because like, I think all women have complicated relationships with their mothers.
8:40
Jessie Tu: I think you can't, um...
8:42
Jessie Tu: And, um, I, I thought, like I, I'd, I would love to know other people's opinions about this, but I think it's because like, um, the, you know, you and I, even like our mother's generation, they had a lot of opportunities that we don't.
8:57
Jessie Tu: You know, every generation- Mm of women's rights are constantly shifting, and so it's only natural that, um, that the, that the relationship between two women in the same family who have been, you know, um, raised in the same, sort of like the lineage of that in, in a sort of societal way, it just, um, one...
9:21
Jessie Tu: When they live together in the same household, it's just t- bound to be tension and friction- Mm because just of the way the con- world continues to ha- uh, treat women
9:32
Natasha Rai: Yeah, and, and I was just thinking about my own mom, and part of my dynamic with her was, like, you know, she was a migrant to this country and, um, that kind of real tension between, like, what she- what was familiar for her growing up as a teenager and then a young adult and then a, and then a young woman compared to, like, my experiences, and that kind of constant tension of me having this judgment about, well, I know that I can go to this party and be safe, but for her, that was such a weird-
10:06
Jessie Tu: Mm
10:07
Natasha Rai: difficult concept.
10:08
Natasha Rai: And then that kind of...
10:10
Natasha Rai: But also it- because of maybe- and I'm talking very specifically about me, I'm not making any kind of sweeping statements about cultural identity, but in, in my situation, like, we just didn't have language to kind of do that together.
10:22
Natasha Rai: Like, tell me...
10:23
Natasha Rai: Like, I didn't even know how to say to her, like, not that I would as a freaking 16-year-old, but like,"What are you scared about?" Yeah.
10:29
Natasha Rai: Like,"Tell me about it," you know?
10:30
Jessie Tu: Uh-huh.
10:30
Natasha Rai: I could now, but I don't know.
10:33
Natasha Rai: Like, I think maybe for me that was also a dynamic, the cultural differences.
10:37
Jessie Tu: Oh, absolutely.
10:38
Jessie Tu: Yeah, everything you're saying mirrors my own experience.
10:41
Jessie Tu: Absolutely.
10:42
Jessie Tu: And also, like, you and I, we don't just have that intergen- intergenerational, um, friction, we also have the intercultural, like, you know, different cultures clashing-
10:53
Natasha Rai: Yeah
10:53
Jessie Tu: between our parents and I, um, between our parents and ourselves.
10:56
Jessie Tu: And yeah, there, there is, like, even there was just no language, yeah, like you say.
11:02
Jessie Tu: Um, and I think that the, the idea of, um- emotionally expressing your needs and wants and desires.
11:11
Jessie Tu: Like, it just was not, it's not a thing-
11:14
Natasha Rai: I know.
11:14
Natasha Rai: I'm laughing- Um, in our household not because I'm laughing at you, but just the thought of that, like emotional- Yeah expression.
11:19
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
11:19
Natasha Rai: It's just like, what is that?
11:20
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
11:21
Jessie Tu: Also, um, my, because my parents grew up, you know, with very, very kind of, um...
11:28
Jessie Tu: Like my grandfather, for instance, my father's dad, he starved during the Chinese Civil War.
11:33
Jessie Tu: And so for my dad, um, the, just the fact that we were fed meant that he was the best dad in the world.
11:40
Jessie Tu: Like in his eyes, you know?
11:41
Jessie Tu: Yes, yes.
11:42
Jessie Tu: And so like, yeah, yeah, I, I, I like the, the, the idea that we had in- internal emotional lives did not even cross his mind because he didn't, like, he didn't, he wasn't raised that way.
11:54
Jessie Tu: Like, he didn't have parents who cared for his emotional wellbeing.
11:58
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
11:58
Jessie Tu: Because it's like, as long as I fed you and clothed you and housed you, I'm a great father, according to them.
12:03
Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
12:04
Natasha Rai: But also, like, you know what strikes me about your characters specifically?
12:07
Natasha Rai: That the rebellion and the kind of pushing away of, becomes almost part of the character's worldview.
12:16
Natasha Rai: Like both Faye and Jenna are like, they are despite their mothers almost.
12:22
Natasha Rai: Like, maybe I'm just reading it too deeply, but, um, do you know what I mean by that?
12:26
Natasha Rai: Like, it just felt- I do yeah.
12:28
Natasha Rai: And so even like with Faye's relationship with her mentor, it was all this kind of unspoken, um, comparisons between,"Well, you're like this with me, and my mother is like this." And, and I'm just curious about characters who are so shaped by relationship because, you know, so many people are shaped by their environments and their experiences, but these characters are really shaped by this primary relationship, which I thought was really interesting as a reader.
12:56
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
12:56
Natasha Rai: Mm.
12:57
Jessie Tu: I, I think also because I'm obsessed with women, like I'm obsessed with other women, especially older women- Mm because ultimately- Oh my God,
13:07
Natasha Rai: I used to be as well.
13:08
Natasha Rai: I still think I still am.
13:09
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
13:10
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
13:10
Jessie Tu: Yeah, because like ultimately they're the, the...
13:13
Jessie Tu: Like when I, when I- I have this thing, like when I go out in public and I see an old woman walking on the street or if I see an older woman, an elderly wo- woman, like, um, having coffee by herself or whatever, like I always notice older woman, women, um, because I'm like,"That'll be me." Like I, I...
13:35
Jessie Tu: They, they are literally the embodiment of hopefully if I get to grow old, um, they're, they're the embodiment of the life that I will one day have.
13:45
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
13:46
Natasha Rai: Mm.
13:46
Jessie Tu: And so I want to understand them, and I wanna get to know them and, um, I want them to teach me something.
13:53
Natasha Rai: Mm.
13:54
Natasha Rai: So you're really interested in their kind of, what they have figured out about themselves- Yeah, I think
13:59
Jessie Tu: so and the world?
14:00
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
14:00
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
14:00
Jessie Tu: I think in my 20s especially, I was like a, I had a lot of really old female friends-
14:07
Natasha Rai: Oh my God, me
14:07
Jessie Tu: too because, yeah.
14:09
Jessie Tu: Yeah, and it wasn't like some quirk, like weird kinky quirk thing, like I wouldn't, you know, go out, go to out of my way to like befriend them.
14:17
Jessie Tu: It's just, um, I was drawn to them and I wanted to spend time with them because I think I had this really perhaps naive view that the more they taught me about the mistakes they made in their lives, the l- the more I could learn from them and then not make the mistakes myself, you know?
14:37
Jessie Tu: I mean, obviously- Oh,
14:38
Natasha Rai: yeah,
14:38
Jessie Tu: yeah obviously that's like a weird way to live, but I genuinely was like,"Oh, you know, um, I could learn from these women." And I think by osmosis, like I was a teacher for many years before I w- started writing books.
14:55
Jessie Tu: Mm.
14:55
Jessie Tu: And, um, as a teacher, you're surrounded by a lot of women, especially a lot of older women, right?
15:00
Jessie Tu: Like, I was in, I was a teacher in my 20s, so I was often the youngest person in a staff room.
15:04
Natasha Rai: Mm.
15:05
Jessie Tu: And, um, the thing that I constantly picked up- from, um, older women was, like, what the kind of, the kind of, what a good man looks like and what a good- what a bad man looks like.
15:19
Jessie Tu: Like- Oh'cause, um, I remember in the staffroom, like, teachers loved to gossip.
15:23
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
15:23
Jessie Tu: They loved to talk about their private lives, and I remember being especially drawn to women who were divorced because they had the best advice about what kind of m- men to avoid.
15:37
Natasha Rai: Did you, do you remember all the advice still?
15:39
Jessie Tu: Oh, yeah.
15:39
Jessie Tu: It was, like, the one, th- the one piece of most important advice that I think is, like, I wish I could tell every 25-year-old woman is don't for a, don't fall for a charming man.
15:52
Natasha Rai: Oh, that's good.
15:53
Jessie Tu: Like, charismatic men.
15:54
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
15:54
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
15:54
Jessie Tu: Like charismatic men, I'm always very suspicious of charismatic men.
15:58
Natasha Rai: Is it because, like, they can spin the words but they don't follow it up with action?
16:01
Jessie Tu: Oh, it's, yeah.
16:02
Jessie Tu: Like, I'm- That's- I'm s- I'm suspicious not just of charismatic men, I'm generally s- suspicious of anyone who's very well put-together and, like, performs well, is not awkward, you know, just someone who's very manicured in their speech.
16:16
Jessie Tu: I, I am really suspicious of those kind of people.
16:19
Natasha Rai: Interesting.
16:20
Natasha Rai: That's, um, I wanna talk to you more about that, but maybe offline.
16:24
Natasha Rai: Um, so you were journaling all through your, um, like, I guess, adolescence.
16:30
Natasha Rai: Were you also a reader?
16:33
Jessie Tu: Not, no, I, I'd say.
16:36
Jessie Tu: Um, not, not as much, no.
16:38
Jessie Tu: Um, I didn't grow up in a household of readers.
16:42
Jessie Tu: Um, my parents were much more, like, practically-minded people.
16:47
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
16:48
Jessie Tu: Um, we watched a lot of movies.
16:50
Jessie Tu: I think that was my foray into storytelling.
16:54
Jessie Tu: Oh.
16:54
Jessie Tu: I watched a lot of movies.
16:55
Jessie Tu: They're, movies are my first love.
16:58
Natasha Rai: Oh,
16:58
Jessie Tu: okay.
16:58
Jessie Tu: Yeah, and I only started reading seriously in my, well into my 20s.
17:02
Natasha Rai: And what kind of inspired you to start or stick with it, reading-wise?
17:07
Jessie Tu: Oh, oh, reading.
17:07
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
17:08
Jessie Tu: Um, I think my reading and my feminism very much came alive at the same time.
17:14
Jessie Tu: So I was angry with the world, and feminism was a way to explain and help me give voice to all the things I was angry about.
17:23
Natasha Rai: Oh, okay.
17:24
Natasha Rai: That's so interesting.
17:25
Natasha Rai: And is that how you started writing about that?
17:28
Natasha Rai: Or did
17:28
Jessie Tu: you- Yeah, I think, um, like I, I started reading a lot of women writers who wrote about their lives.
17:36
Jessie Tu: Like, I was really into memoirs-
17:39
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
17:39
Jessie Tu: by women.
17:40
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
17:40
Jessie Tu: Um, I read a lot of Deborah Levy.
17:43
Jessie Tu: Like, Deborah Levy's autobiographical trilogy is, like, just a work of art that has completely helped me identify my own sort of desire or power that I want, the kind of woman that I want to aspire to be.
18:00
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
18:03
Jessie Tu: And I think I was inspired to write because, because I read these female writers who saved me, like really, really saved me.
18:15
Jessie Tu: Like when I say saved me, I literally mean, um, in my late 20s I was at a very low point in my life, um, like emotionally.
18:24
Natasha Rai: Mm.
18:25
Jessie Tu: And w- and then I read Olivia Laing's The Lonely City.
18:29
Jessie Tu: Have you heard of that book?
18:30
Natasha Rai: No, I haven't.
18:31
Natasha Rai: Uh,
18:31
Jessie Tu: how...
18:31
Jessie Tu: Okay.
18:31
Jessie Tu: So, um, it's a collection of essays, like a book, uh, about, uh, New York, sort of, uh, American artists-
18:41
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
18:41
Jessie Tu: who painted about loneliness.
18:44
Jessie Tu: Um- Ooh so she has a chapter on David Wojnarowicz, um, on Andy Warhol, on Edward Hopper, um, and talks about the way in which they embodied loneliness and then they turned it into beautiful art.
19:01
Jessie Tu: And that, and then she also, in the, in the book she, it's a collection of essays but it's also blends memoir, so she writes about her own, uh, her own, uh, feelings of loneliness while she was in New York.
19:14
Jessie Tu: And I think I read it while I was in New York feeling extremely lonely, and there was just this one line where she says, like, um, she felt shame about being lonely that really, really healed something in me because I was like,"This is someone who has described exactly how I feel," and I felt less alone.
19:35
Jessie Tu: Like, I was like,"Here's one woman who's, you know, clearly very intelligent," and she has also gone through an embarrassing breakup, um- Mm-hmm in sort of like later stage in her life.
19:46
Jessie Tu: And like, you know, in hindsight you're like,"Oh my God, you were like 27.
19:49
Jessie Tu: You're so young and stupid." But, uh, when I was that age I felt really old-
19:54
Natasha Rai: Yeah
19:54
Jessie Tu: and embarrassed for having a breakup, and just the fact that she had written about it made me feel less lonely.
20:00
Jessie Tu: And I think I write because ultimately I just want to make one person feel less lonely.
20:06
Natasha Rai: Wow.
20:07
Natasha Rai: That's pretty incredible.
20:09
Natasha Rai: Um, and is that how you started writing Lonely Go?
20:15
Jessie Tu: Yeah, it must have been'cause I started it when I was in New York, yeah, and feeling very lonely.
20:20
Jessie Tu: And, um, I just had a lot I needed to get off my chest.
20:25
Jessie Tu: Mm.
20:25
Jessie Tu: So the first draft came out very quickly, and then, um, I think I was also nearing 30, and at that point in my life I was feeling like,"Okay, if I'm gonna write a book, I better do it now,"'cause I was so sick of hearing myself saying,"Oh, I'd like to write a book," and not doing anything about it.
20:44
Natasha Rai: So then when you started writing, like, h- how did it come together?
20:48
Natasha Rai: Did you know the form?
20:50
Natasha Rai: 'Cause it sounds like you were reading so many different types of things.
20:53
Jessie Tu: Yeah,
20:53
Natasha Rai: that's a good
20:53
Jessie Tu: question.
20:54
Natasha Rai: How, y- how did it come to be a novel?
20:56
Jessie Tu: So I, I turned it...
20:59
Jessie Tu: I made it into a, a novel, like a fiction, because I wanted to make it ridiculous.
21:04
Jessie Tu: Like, o- obviously I took my own life as a starting point because I was a violinist.
21:10
Jessie Tu: Um, and, um, but then I was like,"I'll have more fun if I make this fiction." Yeah, so a lot of the events I describe in the book are just very exaggerated versions of stuff I went through.
21:23
Jessie Tu: So I, like...
21:24
Jessie Tu: Uh, the sort of parties that I went to in the inner west of Sydney and in New York and in Bushwick and all that, um, I just had experienced it myself, but then on the page I was like,"This will be so much fun if I create more characters that are a bit more ludicrous than, than j- not just myself, but the people I met."
21:43
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
21:43
Jessie Tu: So yeah, it really came up from, from a place of like,"I'll have more fun and have more liberties if I make this non...
21:49
Jessie Tu: uh, b- if I make this fiction."
21:52
Natasha Rai: And at the time, what kind of work were you doing?
21:54
Natasha Rai: Were you, were you doing, like, book-related work, or were you doing, like, random jobs or...?
21:59
Jessie Tu: Oh, I was a teacher.
22:00
Natasha Rai: Oh, you were still teaching then?
22:01
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
22:02
Jessie Tu: Oh,
22:02
Natasha Rai: my God, you taught in New York?
22:04
Jessie Tu: No, I taught in Sydney.
22:05
Natasha Rai: Oh, I was gonna say.
22:06
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
22:06
Natasha Rai: That's brave.
22:10
Natasha Rai: Um, so tell me what happened after you finished your draft.
22:13
Natasha Rai: What, what did you do with it?
22:19
Jessie Tu: Sent it out to a couple of agents
22:22
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm
22:23
Jessie Tu: after I, um, yeah, I, I, after I c- reached about 80,000 words, I was like,"Okay, this sounds like a...
22:31
Jessie Tu: This length-wise is pretty normal for a novel." Um, and I got picked up by the agent that I represented the book, Melanie Austell.
22:43
Jessie Tu: Um, it happened very fast, within, like, two months, I'd say, from the time I sent the email to me signing up with her.
22:53
Jessie Tu: Um, yeah.
22:55
Jessie Tu: Uh, we, we revised the manuscript a couple of times over- Mm-hmm a couple of months, uh, before she sent it out to publishers.
23:03
Natasha Rai: And were they big rewrites?
23:05
Natasha Rai: Like, do you remember?
23:07
Jessie Tu: No, I don't think there were big rewrites.
23:10
Jessie Tu: Um, I think a lot of it was structuring, to be honest.
23:13
Jessie Tu: Okay.
23:13
Jessie Tu: Okay.
23:14
Jessie Tu: Yeah, because I had never written a book.
23:16
Jessie Tu: I didn't, and I'd never...
23:17
Jessie Tu: I, like, I was also not a huge novel reader, so I couldn't tell you, like, I couldn't say what...
23:26
Jessie Tu: I had nothing, like, I had no idea how to pace a book.
23:29
Jessie Tu: You know, the ups and downs, the troughs, the s- like, I didn't know any of that.
23:33
Jessie Tu: I just had, like, a series of scenes where, like, something intense happened, something less intense happened.
23:39
Jessie Tu: I had, like, dramatic dialogue, and then I had backstory.
23:42
Jessie Tu: Like, it was just a matter of shaping, shaping the story and putting them into an order that was most compelling.
23:49
Natasha Rai: Wow, that's incredible that out of that, like, putting that together and using your instinct, you, you know,
23:56
Jessie Tu: you got picked up.
23:56
Jessie Tu: Oh, well, I had really amazing, like Melanie is incredible, and I had, I also was lucky'cause I had amazing editors look at it as well.
24:05
Natasha Rai: So once you started sending it out, like, did you...
24:08
Natasha Rai: What kind of feedback were you getting from publishers?
24:11
Jessie Tu: It was mostly positive.
24:12
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
24:13
Jessie Tu: Um, I was like, like a l- in hindsight, uh, you know, I'm very grateful for the kind of positive reception I got immediately.
24:23
Jessie Tu: Uh, but yeah, to be honest, I really just was not expecting...
24:28
Jessie Tu: I didn't know what to expect, so I didn't expect anything.
24:30
Jessie Tu: You know, obviously you put a work of art out in the world and you hope that someone would read it, you know?
24:36
Jessie Tu: And, uh, I, I think as long as, um, I had, uh, as long as I knew that it was- being, um, funneled through people's hands, like people were reading it, then yeah, I was, I was happy.
24:50
Jessie Tu: Like, I didn't need people to love the book.
24:53
Jessie Tu: Wow.
24:53
Jessie Tu: I just wanted people to read it
24:55
Natasha Rai: You're so chill.
24:57
Natasha Rai: Like, that just sounds so healthy and, like, so good because, you know, like it's a very, um, what's the right word?
25:07
Natasha Rai: Like, it's a, it's a terrifying time for a lot of write- like new writers and emerging writers when they send their work out and it's being, you know, read by either an agent or a publishing house, and it's like that wait is can be torturous.
25:19
Natasha Rai: But y- you were like,"Oh, whatevs," like,"I'm just glad someone's reading it." That sounds amazing.
25:23
Jessie Tu: Well, yeah.
25:24
Jessie Tu: Um, I think, I think I was pretty chill about it.
25:27
Jessie Tu: Mm.
25:27
Jessie Tu: I think.
25:28
Jessie Tu: I don't know.
25:28
Jessie Tu: Maybe I'm in just like a, another place at the moment, but
25:33
Natasha Rai: So did it, did you have like the writer's dream where s- more than one publisher wanted to publish it?
25:39
Jessie Tu: Yes, I did.
25:40
Natasha Rai: Oh, nice.
25:41
Natasha Rai: Okay.
25:41
Natasha Rai: So and how did you end up deciding on the publisher you, you went with?
25:46
Jessie Tu: Because of her track record.
25:47
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
25:48
Jessie Tu: Ah, okay She published a lot of, she's published a lot of authors that I admire, so yeah.
25:53
Natasha Rai: Okay
25:53
Jessie Tu: That w- was a pretty easy decision.
25:56
Natasha Rai: Okay.
25:56
Natasha Rai: Well, that's, that's good because it, you know, I guess what you're talking about there, so I'm just making it specific for listeners who are thinking about this kind of stuff, like it sounds like for you it was about this person, this editor, this publisher understands the type of work I wanna b- put out there.
26:11
Jessie Tu: Yeah, exactly.
26:12
Natasha Rai: Yeah?
26:13
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
26:13
Jessie Tu: Exactly.
26:13
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:14
Lindsay Bartels: Hi, Book Deal Podcast listeners.
26:16
Lindsay Bartels: Lindsay Bartels here, the author of Imogen in Waiting: A Memoir of Modern Reproduction, which came out on June 16th in English worldwide with the new women-centric small traditional publisher, Third Rail Press, out of the US.
26:32
Lindsay Bartels: It is about my experience as a BRCA1 genetic mutation carrier and how when I found out I had this cancer-causing predisposition, I had this incredible opportunity to not pass it on to my children and their children by undergoing IVF.
26:49
Lindsay Bartels: This was the only way my husband and I knew to prevent cancer for future generations, and we thought,"What a privilege and what a legacy to leave behind." But as it turned out, I came face to face with an embryo who was essentially just like me, a potential that was female and also had this cancer-causing gene.
27:09
Lindsay Bartels: When I learn this information, I pause because I think I'm grateful for my life and would choose it every single time.
27:17
Lindsay Bartels: And my parents, they didn't have this information, and they didn't have this choice, and thank goodness for that.
27:23
Lindsay Bartels: So how do I make this choice?
27:25
Lindsay Bartels: It's very challenging, and in order to remember it, to preserve it, to capture this experience, I tell my story about whether or not I bring this embryo into being to the embryo who I call Imogen.
27:40
Lindsay Bartels: I hope it brings readers hope for a way forward, no matter what impossible decision in their own lives they might be facing, and it shows the way I become my own best advocate, how I learn to listen to my own inner truths and the development in my capacity as a woman, wife, and mother that I discover along the way.
28:02
Lindsay Bartels: I hope you enjoy it.
28:03
Natasha Rai: And so how was that first publication experience after that?
28:06
Natasha Rai: Like, was it a big whirlwind?
28:07
Natasha Rai: Like, were you like,"This is so cool"?
28:10
Natasha Rai: Was it torturous?
28:11
Natasha Rai: Were you just like chill the whole way through, like,"Oh, yeah, cool"?
28:15
Jessie Tu: I thought it was a lot of fun.
28:16
Jessie Tu: Like, I loved it.
28:17
Jessie Tu: Mm.
28:17
Jessie Tu: I really enjoyed that initi- like the, the publication and everything because I was learning.
28:25
Jessie Tu: It was my first time.
28:26
Natasha Rai: Mm.
28:26
Jessie Tu: And it was also during COVID, so I didn't do any in-person events.
28:31
Jessie Tu: I did online events, um, which was just like meant that I didn't have to worry so much about performing, which a- always takes a lot of energy out of me.
28:43
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
28:43
Jessie Tu: Like, you know, a- like appearing on a panel and, or just like standing, being in front of a- group, group of strangers is always going to be exhausting for me.
28:53
Jessie Tu: Like, it's not necessarily, um, un- it's not necessarily, uh, n- unenjoyable- Mm but it's always in, uh, exhausting for me because, uh, I'm, I hate being perceived.
29:06
Jessie Tu: Like, I hate, I hate being perceived.
29:09
Jessie Tu: I hate, I just don't like being seen, you know?
29:13
Jessie Tu: Like I'm happy to like write- Yeah and, you know, but like my, my f- my sort of like ultimate job is never to have to talk to anyone.
29:23
Jessie Tu: I just like, like if I could write emails to people for the rest of my life-
29:27
Natasha Rai: You'd do that like,
29:28
Jessie Tu: yeah, yeah.
29:29
Jessie Tu: And then I'll, and, and I'll just talk to like m- my friends and family, that's enough.
29:32
Jessie Tu: But like anyone outside of that, like I feel like I have to be on.
29:36
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
29:37
Natasha Rai: I, I, I know what you mean.
29:38
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
29:39
Natasha Rai: Um, so you got a...
29:42
Natasha Rai: Was it a one-book deal or did they want more?
29:44
Natasha Rai: Yeah, okay.
29:45
Jessie Tu: It was a one-book deal.
29:46
Natasha Rai: Okay.
29:47
Natasha Rai: So, um, I...
29:49
Natasha Rai: How long was it between Lonely Girl and The Honeyeater?
29:54
Jessie Tu: It was four years.
29:55
Jessie Tu: Four years,
29:56
Natasha Rai: okay.
29:56
Natasha Rai: Now I remember, I c-'cause at your Sydney launch for The Honeyeater you, you were in conversation with Anna Walker-Crabb, right?
30:02
Jessie Tu: Uh-huh.
30:03
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
30:04
Natasha Rai: Sorry, I'm not stalking you, I just remember this stuff.
30:06
Natasha Rai: Um- No,
30:06
Jessie Tu: no, yeah.
30:07
Natasha Rai: Um, so I remember you said something about you had written something else-
30:13
Jessie Tu: Yeah
30:13
Natasha Rai: and you had shown it to a few people, and they were like,"This is not good."
30:17
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
30:18
Natasha Rai: So you shelved it, and then-
30:20
Jessie Tu: Mm.
30:21
Natasha Rai: So tell me more about that.
30:23
Natasha Rai: Like, what happened?
30:25
Natasha Rai: How do you know when something is working and something's not?
30:28
Natasha Rai: You know, you've, you've written a few things now, so- Mm you've, like, like it's not like Lonely Girl where you were learning stuff still.
30:34
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
30:35
Natasha Rai: What's that like for you?
30:37
Jessie Tu: That, I think, was a manuscript that I wrote, um, where I was trying to be really experimental, but I really didn't land on a clear idea.
30:48
Jessie Tu: So the manuscript ended up being, um, sort of slosh, sort of like gooey, um, gooey scrambled eggs or something.
31:02
Jessie Tu: Like, it just didn't have a center.
31:04
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
31:04
Jessie Tu: And I, I recently reread it and I w-'cause I was hoping, hoping that I could go back and see something in it and maybe revive it.
31:13
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
31:13
Jessie Tu: But, but, um, I didn't see anything in it that excited me.
31:18
Jessie Tu: I think I wrote it- Oh very quickly, and I was interested in a s- it was, it was about a group of musicians who had this obsessive relationship with a conductor.
31:27
Jessie Tu: And, um- And I think the question I was trying to answer, you know, six years ago no longer interests me now.
31:35
Jessie Tu: And so- Mm-hmm that's how I decided that this book wasn't going to see the da- light of day, because I was like,"Um, I'm not curious about what the book was trying to be."
31:46
Natasha Rai: Mm.
31:47
Jessie Tu: And, and, and, and, and, and the project needs to at least have the artist be curious about the story.
31:54
Natasha Rai: Oh, for sure.
31:55
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
31:55
Natasha Rai: And, and if you're experimenting with form, is that something that kind of comes organically out of it because of what the questions you're asking, or is that something you go in going,"I really wanna try, I don't know, verse, or I really wanna try a fragmented point of view?" I don't know.
32:09
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
32:10
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:11
Jessie Tu: Um, I think I was a bit too eager to try a different form, and then I didn't have a strong enough idea.
32:21
Jessie Tu: I think that was the sort of error there.
32:23
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:24
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
32:24
Jessie Tu: But I think ultimately you need to have something interesting to say before you try and say it.
32:30
Jessie Tu: But- Yeah I only wanted to play around with a different type of form, and I didn't really know what I was trying to say.
32:36
Jessie Tu: I think, I think that's what-
32:38
Natasha Rai: Yeah,
32:39
Jessie Tu: yeah was the thing there.
32:40
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:41
Natasha Rai: Because I know that sometimes, you know, with emerging writers, if they're playing with form, like, the question that I've heard being asked is, why this?
32:48
Natasha Rai: Why this vehicle, or why this expression?
32:50
Natasha Rai: Like, what is it that you need to explore through that?
32:53
Natasha Rai: So I was just curious about that.
32:55
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
32:56
Natasha Rai: Mm.
32:57
Natasha Rai: Um, the things that...
32:58
Natasha Rai: The two...
32:59
Natasha Rai: The, the other thing that struck me about both your books are that I guess these women that you're writing about would be classified as difficult characters- Mm or difficult people, because, you know, they're quite prickly.
33:11
Natasha Rai: But I love, I love, love, love reading books that have difficult or unlikable characters.
33:17
Natasha Rai: Um- Do you set out to write someone like that, or is it just how it turns out?
33:25
Jessie Tu: I write myself on the page, and so I must be, like, a prickly person.
33:32
Jessie Tu: Um, well-
33:32
Natasha Rai: I meant just, you
33:33
Jessie Tu: know,
33:33
Natasha Rai: in, in terms of conventional literature and what people might, when they read, you know.
33:40
Natasha Rai: Like, these are not conventional people is what I'm saying.
33:43
Natasha Rai: Like, they- Well,
33:43
Jessie Tu: first of all, they're Asian- Mm and I, like, rar- I don't read a lot of...
33:48
Jessie Tu: Like, you don't...
33:49
Jessie Tu: You know, in Australia, it's not the mainstream to read an Asian female character.
33:53
Jessie Tu: So- True that's, you know, number one.
33:55
Natasha Rai: Mm.
33:56
Jessie Tu: And, um, I'm just interested in...
33:59
Jessie Tu: I write the female...
34:01
Jessie Tu: I'm wr- I write characters who I am curious about, and a woman who's compliant and has nothing interesting to say and doesn't voice her opinion just doesn't interest me.
34:11
Natasha Rai: Mm.
34:12
Jessie Tu: And so, yeah, I'm...
34:13
Jessie Tu: I, I, I get really, like...
34:15
Jessie Tu: F- it's so interesting when I hear about people casting judgment, um, on my characters because I'm like,"Wow, okay, so this is how..." It's just interesting how the way women on the page are interpreted because it makes me think about the way women are interpreted in society at large, you know?
34:36
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
34:36
Natasha Rai: Yeah, I do.
34:37
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
34:38
Natasha Rai: And I think...
34:38
Natasha Rai: And what I'm referring to as well is not just their opinions, but the kind of vulnerability and the rawness of their internal worlds, because you don't see that often with women.
34:47
Natasha Rai: Right.
34:48
Natasha Rai: Like, with women, like, you know, you can read, I don't know, some...
34:52
Natasha Rai: I've-'cause I read a lot, and books that ha- really have that interiority or that kind of very raw, uncensored almost, unfiltered-
35:03
Jessie Tu: Yeah
35:04
Natasha Rai: um, descriptions or just showing you what it's actually like to be inside this person- Uh-huh I really love that, because it's like I, I love the, when the character's on the page and they're doing something that if you didn't have the interiority, you'd be like,"Oh-
35:20
Jessie Tu: Right
35:20
Natasha Rai: that's bitchy," or,"That's mean," or, you know- Yeah that kind of typical way we describe women.
35:25
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
35:25
Natasha Rai: But when you have that interiority, it's like I get it.
35:28
Natasha Rai: I get-
35:29
Jessie Tu: Yeah
35:29
Natasha Rai: I totally get how this person operates in this specific world and in their life.
35:35
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
35:35
Natasha Rai: And I love that because it feels to me that I can just really embrace someone like that in terms of understanding what's happening in a way that sometimes when you read something that's a bit more smooth or someone's a bit more kind of compliant, it's like,"And?" Mm.
35:53
Natasha Rai: Like, some- some bad shit's happened to you.
35:55
Natasha Rai: Like, and?
35:56
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
35:57
Natasha Rai: Whereas it's like when there's, like, this kind of grossness or vulnerability or, like, some intensity, I'm like,"Yes, show me more of that." I get really excited- Yeah about
36:08
Jessie Tu: that.
36:08
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
36:09
Jessie Tu: Yeah, I completely agree
36:11
Natasha Rai: So, and, and I think because as you said, as women come across on the page, it's just they seem difficult in some way.
36:18
Natasha Rai: 'Cause I- my character from my debut novel was...
36:20
Natasha Rai: A few people are like,"She's so difficult.
36:23
Natasha Rai: I really didn't like her." And I'm like,"Oh, interesting.
36:26
Natasha Rai: Okay." Yeah, because I was, I was- Yeah, doesn't...
36:30
Natasha Rai: And,
36:31
Jessie Tu: and then doesn't that tell you something about that person who says that?
36:35
Natasha Rai: That tells me something about the types of books that are out there, and how, and how the, a lot of women are portrayed, uh, in, in books, and how s- women that have a bit more, um, maybe a character.
36:48
Natasha Rai: I'm talking about women that have a bit more realness to them somehow, or that kind of, you know, messiness of life.
36:55
Natasha Rai: Like, you know, women fart, and they do things like that.
36:57
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
36:57
Natasha Rai: And they sweat.
36:59
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
36:59
Natasha Rai: And they- Yeah and they have sex drives, and they vomit, and all of that grossness of life.
37:03
Natasha Rai: Not that sex drive is gross, but you know what I mean.
37:06
Natasha Rai: When you, when you see that on the...
37:07
Natasha Rai: like a real person on the page, for some reason f- it seems to me that women are just...
37:12
Natasha Rai: Women, female characters are like,"Ugh," like,"Ugh, I don't wanna, I don't wanna know about that," you know?
37:18
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
37:19
Natasha Rai: Sorry, that was a very long-winded, um, comment, but I just...
37:23
Natasha Rai: I, I really love how you do that, is what I'm saying, that they really speak to me of something very real.
37:30
Jessie Tu: Oh, thank you.
37:30
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
37:30
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
37:31
Jessie Tu: I, I think I just, because I want, I want to see that.
37:35
Jessie Tu: I wanna see more of that in the world.
37:37
Natasha Rai: Yeah, me
37:38
Jessie Tu: too.
37:38
Jessie Tu: I hate, I hate opacity.
37:40
Jessie Tu: I hate opaque...
37:41
Jessie Tu: I hate opaqueness.
37:43
Natasha Rai: Mm.
37:43
Jessie Tu: Like, and I hate it in my daily life.
37:45
Jessie Tu: Like, if I meet a person and they're, like, reserved and they don't give me much, like, I'm immediately like,"Okay, I'm not, I'm not gonna be curious about you, because you're not giving me anything." Like- Yeah I like really transparent people.
37:58
Natasha Rai: Mm.
37:59
Jessie Tu: Because- Yeah ultimately, the conversations I've had with people who are transparent, they make me feel less lonely.
38:06
Jessie Tu: You know?
38:06
Jessie Tu: Like- Mm when they open up about, say, just, like, quotidian marriage struggles, I'm like,"Oh, okay.
38:14
Jessie Tu: That's normal."
38:16
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
38:17
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
38:18
Natasha Rai: Yes,'cause it's that shared life experience, right?
38:20
Natasha Rai: Of, oh, okay- Yeah I'm not alone in this, and I'm not suffering on my own.
38:23
Natasha Rai: Yeah,
38:24
Jessie Tu: yeah.
38:24
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
38:25
Natasha Rai: Um, so you also work as a book critic, right?
38:29
Natasha Rai: How does that shape or inform what, how you write, if at all?
38:36
Jessie Tu: I realized the other day that I've been reviewing since 2020.
38:41
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
38:42
Jessie Tu: So yeah, six years.
38:45
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
38:45
Jessie Tu: And, um, it must have, it really must have had some impact if I think about it.
38:52
Jessie Tu: I don't, I don't consciously think about how it changes me, only because, like, that's not my full-time job.
38:58
Jessie Tu: You know, I do...
39:00
Jessie Tu: Um, I've cut back on it since having a child, but I used to do two reviews a month, so like, you know, um, it was a good pace.
39:10
Jessie Tu: But I think it made me, uh, just, uh- I think the questions I ask myself when I, when I write, sit down to write, maybe it's changed.
39:21
Natasha Rai: Oh.
39:22
Jessie Tu: And maybe because I was reviewing other people, I got a bit stricter with myself as well
39:31
Natasha Rai: How?
39:33
Jessie Tu: Um, I would, like, read my own work and s- say to myself,"Am I getting bored?" And because, because the metric I sort of used in assessing other people's work was like,"Am I enjoying this?
39:51
Jessie Tu: Am I having a good time?" Or, um,"Is the, is the, uh, writer doing anything interesting on the page?" And for me, when I sit down to write, maybe I started asking those questions myself, and I think that can sometimes be a hindrance because when...
40:07
Jessie Tu: I...
40:08
Jessie Tu: When...
40:08
Jessie Tu: The ultimate state to write in is to write without thinking about the audience as well.
40:14
Jessie Tu: Like, in my opinion.
40:15
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
40:15
Jessie Tu: Um, obviously for other things it's different.
40:18
Jessie Tu: Like, I think, um, I think if you were writing for comedy, you know, you have to think about the audience, obviously.
40:26
Jessie Tu: But, uh, for novels, at least the, the novels that I try and write, I don't wanna think about the audience because ultimately I just wanna think about what I'm trying to do and whether or not I'm succeeding in what I'm trying to do.
40:40
Natasha Rai: Yeah, I like that.
40:41
Natasha Rai: I res- I, I agree with you'cause I also write for myself primarily first.
40:46
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
40:46
Natasha Rai: Like, I don't ever have anyone in mind.
40:49
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
40:50
Jessie Tu: I agree.
40:50
Jessie Tu: I mean- It's
40:51
Natasha Rai: so freeing.
40:51
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
40:51
Jessie Tu: It is.
40:52
Jessie Tu: Exactly.
40:52
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
40:52
Jessie Tu: 'Cause, like, where, where else in your life are you completely unaccountable to someone, you know?
40:57
Natasha Rai: Exactly, yeah.
40:58
Natasha Rai: And you can totally be as crazy as you want in your own mind, on your own page.
41:01
Natasha Rai: Exactly.
41:02
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
41:02
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
41:02
Jessie Tu: Yeah,
41:03
Natasha Rai: yeah.
41:03
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
41:03
Natasha Rai: S- so being a new parent and having all of, you know, life commitments on top, how...
41:08
Natasha Rai: what does your writing practice or routine look like now?
41:17
Jessie Tu: Non-existent.
41:19
Natasha Rai: Okay.
41:20
Jessie Tu: I think I get 10 minutes to write in my diary every night.
41:24
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
41:24
Jessie Tu: That is, that is all I...
41:25
Jessie Tu: That is the best I can hope for.
41:27
Jessie Tu: Okay.
41:27
Jessie Tu: Honestly- Mm-hmm I, I get so much joy from having that 10 minutes to myself at the end of the night- Mm while my partner puts her to bed, and I get to just, uh, write, like, kind of what you said before, write whatever I f- feel like and- Mm and it's so freeing.
41:44
Jessie Tu: I, and, and, and it just makes me, um, reminds me that I have an internal world of my own that I get to- Mm jump into.
41:53
Jessie Tu: It's really great
41:55
Natasha Rai: Does it worry you, like not having as much time as you used to right now?
41:58
Jessie Tu: Oh, totally.
41:59
Jessie Tu: Oh, yeah, totally.
42:00
Jessie Tu: Okay, yeah.
42:00
Jessie Tu: Of course.
42:01
Jessie Tu: Yeah, um, I, I do worry because I don't want to be forgotten, you know?
42:06
Jessie Tu: Like, I, I still want people to look forward to my books, and if, if it's like 10 years before my next one, then inevitably I will, you know, um, fade from people's public consciousness, and, uh, I don't want to do that.
42:22
Jessie Tu: You know, I wish I had something coming out, but, but, um, life circumstances, you know, just priorities.
42:30
Jessie Tu: It's just, it's just a state...
42:31
Jessie Tu: It's just a season in my life where I'm taking a back step- Mm from, uh, you know, um, making kind of public, um, work.
42:40
Natasha Rai: Mm.
42:40
Jessie Tu: But, but privately I'm like still as eager as ever to, to d- to make work.
42:48
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
42:49
Natasha Rai: Mm.
42:50
Natasha Rai: And, and I like how you said that, it's a season.
42:53
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
42:54
Jessie Tu: Mm.
42:54
Jessie Tu: Mm.
42:54
Jessie Tu: And, and you know, I really hate, I really hate and resent, um, the jump back.
43:02
Jessie Tu: What, what, what do they, what do the women call it?
43:04
Jessie Tu: Um, sort of snap back into, um, work mode after having a baby.
43:09
Jessie Tu: Oh.
43:09
Jessie Tu: There's a term.
43:10
Jessie Tu: What was that?
43:10
Jessie Tu: See, I, I, I, I don't even know, um, because I'm so offline these days, and like intentionally, intentionally.
43:16
Jessie Tu: I absolutely resent being online, and I haven't been on Instagram for weeks, like months, and I- that's also very intentional, and I love not having to perform online or to be online.
43:29
Natasha Rai: Mm.
43:29
Jessie Tu: But, um, I hate the, um, expectation that women are rewarded if they, um, get back to their former selves in terms of productivity pre-baby, and I'm like n-I really wanna, I really want to work against that.
43:47
Jessie Tu: Mm-hmm.
43:47
Jessie Tu: Like, I want to take my life slow, you know?
43:49
Jessie Tu: Um, all, and all this chat about AI and convenience of technology and all that, I hate the valuing of convenience these days.
43:58
Jessie Tu: I hate that convenience and productivity are rewarded.
44:03
Jessie Tu: Like, I, I wanna take my life really slow.
44:05
Jessie Tu: Like, ob-obviously I would love to have a book published, you know, every year if I could, but, but then a part of me is like, no, actually, like, it's okay- Mm-hmm to, to move slowly through the world because it feels more, I just think it- aligns m- more healthily with my own values
44:27
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
44:28
Natasha Rai: And also, like, it's such a dumb thing that we've set up.
44:30
Natasha Rai: Like, society wants us to value family, but then there's not enough time to be with family.
44:36
Natasha Rai: Like, you can't really work, as you said, like you used to, and have a child and give that child attention and care-
44:43
Jessie Tu: Yeah that
44:44
Natasha Rai: the child deserves Yeah,
44:45
Jessie Tu: exactly.
44:45
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
44:46
Natasha Rai: Like, the two don't go together.
44:47
Jessie Tu: Yeah, exactly.
44:48
Jessie Tu: It's completely incompatible.
44:49
Jessie Tu: Yeah.
44:50
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
44:50
Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
44:51
Natasha Rai: So I am aware that you have to go, but so the final question I have is, um, do you have any top tips for emerging and aspiring authors?
45:04
Jessie Tu: The best tip I'd say is, um, to keep Working.
45:15
Jessie Tu: Like I said, this sounds like I'm contradicting myself from what I said before, but what I mean by working is, like, keep doing what you love and keep trying.
45:26
Jessie Tu: Like, perseverance, basically.
45:27
Jessie Tu: Like, keep going at it.
45:29
Jessie Tu: Yeah, yeah.
45:29
Jessie Tu: Um, whatever you're trying to do, uh, just keep at it, and you have to be your number one cheerleader.
45:37
Jessie Tu: Like, no one else is...
45:41
Jessie Tu: Like, I'm some- I, I, I'm writing something at the moment where, like, I'm trying to process how difficult it is for me to do the work of creatively writing novels while also being a full-time mom.
45:56
Jessie Tu: Um, and there's a line in there where I say, um,"The baby needs me, the book doesn't." Like- Mm when you have a crying baby, of course you gotta tend to the baby, but the book will always be there, and it, it won't, it, it, like, the book will not...
46:13
Jessie Tu: Nothing will happen to the book if you don't tend to it, you know?
46:16
Jessie Tu: So if you want to make work, just keep working on it.
46:20
Jessie Tu: Just keep at it, because, um, no one else, you're n- no one else is going to force you to do it.
46:27
Jessie Tu: Like, you have to be the one to want to make that into something, and then to share it with the world.
46:32
Jessie Tu: Mm.
46:33
Jessie Tu: Just like, yeah, back yourself, basically.
46:35
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
46:35
Natasha Rai: I like it.
46:36
Jessie Tu: You have to back yourself.
46:37
Natasha Rai: Yes.
46:38
Natasha Rai: I love it.
46:39
Natasha Rai: Um, thank you so much.
46:40
Natasha Rai: That was, that was so amazing.
46:42
Natasha Rai: Um, I wish I could talk to you for another hour just about difficult women.
46:46
Natasha Rai: Um, but that's a chat for another time.
46:49
Natasha Rai: Thank you so much.
46:51
Jessie Tu: Thanks, Tash.
46:52
Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
46:56
Tina Strachan: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast