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Why You Need To Forget The Career Ladder · A Little Bit Richer

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  Iona Bain: Hi, I am Iona Bain and welcome to A Little
• 0:04
  Iona Bain: Bit Richer, brought to you by L& G. Now there
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  Iona Bain: can be pressure to get ahead in your career to earn
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  Iona Bain: more money and push for promotions. We can see competition
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  Iona Bain: from all angles and it can be hard to build
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  Iona Bain: the confidence to succeed, but we might be thinking too
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  Iona Bain: linear. So here today to talk us through why we
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  Iona Bain: need to reconsider our career opportunities is Helen Tupper. Helen
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  Iona Bain: and her co- founder Sarah Ellis started the award- winning
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  Iona Bain: company, Amazing If. They work with companies like Microsoft, Levi's,
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  Iona Bain: BBC, Danone, and Visa to support people with the skills
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  Iona Bain: to succeed in a squiggly career. Together, they're the authors
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  Iona Bain: of two Sunday Times bestsellers, The Squiggly Coach, and You
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  Iona Bain: Coach You. And their TEDx Talk, The Best Career Path
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  Iona Bain: Isn't Always a Straight Line has been watched by almost
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  Iona Bain: 2 million people. Welcome, Helen.
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  Helen Tupper: Thank you so much.
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  Iona Bain: My generation has often been told that if we work
• 1:00
  Iona Bain: hard, then we can achieve success by climbing that career
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  Iona Bain: ladder. Is that true? And if not, why not?
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  Helen Tupper: There's a few things to unpack there. So work hard,
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  Helen Tupper: achieve success. I think what we might need to challenge
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  Helen Tupper: is what success means. So what the career ladder has
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  Helen Tupper: presented is that success equals seniority. And the promise is
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  Helen Tupper: if you show up, you work hard, you'll go up
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  Helen Tupper: this mythical ladder and you'll be happy because success is
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  Helen Tupper: being senior and that's possible for everybody. And there are
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  Helen Tupper: two really big challenges with that assumption. So the first
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  Helen Tupper: is that everybody is motivated by becoming more senior, and
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  Helen Tupper: the second is that promotions are possible for everybody just
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  Helen Tupper: as a result of working hard. And the reality is
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  Helen Tupper: that people are motivated by different things. Some people want
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  Helen Tupper: to stay in the job that they're in and grow
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  Helen Tupper: in that job and feel a sense of achievement and
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  Helen Tupper: connection to the work that they already do. Some people
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  Helen Tupper: want to experiment and learn by developing in different directions,
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  Helen Tupper: and some people do want to become more senior, but
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  Helen Tupper: what we have created is a construct where that freedom
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  Helen Tupper: isn't really allowed. And so people feel like they're failing
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  Helen Tupper: if they want to stay where they are or they
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  Helen Tupper: feel like they're doing the development wrong if they want
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  Helen Tupper: to take a sideways move. And so we need to
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  Helen Tupper: redefine what career success looks like for people and make
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  Helen Tupper: different answers okay. And also presenting this idea of the
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  Helen Tupper: career ladder where promotions are possible for everybody also doesn't
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  Helen Tupper: reflect the reality. They just are not that many promotions for
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  Helen Tupper: people and so it's a bit of a false promise.
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  Iona Bain: And so does this situation create that feeling within a
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  Iona Bain: lot of people that they're not good enough? How important
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  Iona Bain: is confidence in all this?
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  Helen Tupper: Well, there are many moments that matter in careers, and
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  Helen Tupper: one of them are the conversations we have with people
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  Helen Tupper: about our development. So if you are my manager and
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  Helen Tupper: you are asking me, " Helen, where do you see yourself
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  Helen Tupper: in the next five years?" And I think, " Well, the
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  Helen Tupper: only acceptable answer is to become more senior."
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  Iona Bain: It always feels like a trick question, doesn't it?
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  Helen Tupper: It's a really ladderlike question and it creates quite a lot of pressure on
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  Helen Tupper: somebody to come up with the right answer. And I
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  Helen Tupper: think that is the moment where people's confidence gremlins grow.
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  Helen Tupper: So they might think, "Well, I don't really know what I
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  Helen Tupper: really want to do, but I feel like I have
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  Helen Tupper: to say something so that you think that I care
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  Helen Tupper: about my career and I'm being ambitious." Rather than a
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  Helen Tupper: confident conversation, which might sound like, " Actually there are quite
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  Helen Tupper: a few different opportunities I'm interested in. What's most important
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  Helen Tupper: to me is..." I'd love to talk to you about
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  Helen Tupper: where those learning opportunities might be. And these open curious
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  Helen Tupper: conversations unlock lots more opportunity, but they do require confidence
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  Helen Tupper: from the individual and slightly different questions in career conversations.
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  Helen Tupper: It works best when somebody's got self- awareness and confidence
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  Helen Tupper: in their career, but the conversations that they're having with
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  Helen Tupper: their managers and their mentors and people in positions of
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  Helen Tupper: influence are not ladderlike.
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  Iona Bain: So what are the things that maybe we should be
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  Iona Bain: thinking about a little bit more when we're having those conversations?
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  Helen Tupper: There are some what we call squiggly swaps. So there
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  Helen Tupper: are ladderlike words that creep into conversations which will limit
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  Helen Tupper: people's development. So for example, a conversation centered on my
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  Helen Tupper: job title. Something that's much more squiggly is to talk
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  Helen Tupper: about talents. So where do I get my energy? What
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  Helen Tupper: do I want to be known for? How can I
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  Helen Tupper: use that more much bigger, better conversation? We talk about
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  Helen Tupper: talents. Talents take people a lot further than job titles
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  Helen Tupper: do. Next one would be about sort of levels. So
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  Helen Tupper: ladderlike conversations often about levels and grades, squiggly conversations center
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  Helen Tupper: much more on learning. What do you want to learn?
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  Helen Tupper: They center much more on growth. What does growth look
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  Helen Tupper: like for you over the next 12 months? You don't
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  Helen Tupper: have to have all the answers, but I don't want people
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  Helen Tupper: to have the answers because I want them to be
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  Helen Tupper: curious and open. Having that awareness about yourself and your
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  Helen Tupper: career means that you are not predetermining the conversation, which I think
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  Helen Tupper: when people go, " I want to get promoted." The conversation's
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  Helen Tupper: predetermined. And if that promotion isn't possible, the conversation doesn't go
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  Helen Tupper: much further.
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  Iona Bain: There is a big challenge to this though, which is
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  Iona Bain: that titles and levels and grades matter to a lot
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  Iona Bain: of people because they bring more pay. And that is
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  Iona Bain: incredibly important, especially right now where people feel that their
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  Iona Bain: incomes really need to rise. So what would your response
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  Iona Bain: to that be? How do we get people to think
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  Iona Bain: about getting a good income but also learning more?
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  Helen Tupper: So there's sort of a short- term, long- term payoff
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  Helen Tupper: thing going on here. So in the short term, I
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  Helen Tupper: might want a job that pays me more. So in the
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  Helen Tupper: short term, I think we just have to be a
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  Helen Tupper: bit careful of the assumption that the only way I'm
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  Helen Tupper: going to get paid more is to get promoted. So often
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  Helen Tupper: there is movement within a grade or a level. Sometimes
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  Helen Tupper: a horizontal move into another function can also unlock pay.
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  Helen Tupper: It doesn't always have to be promotion. So I would
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  Helen Tupper: explore that, I would get curious. The long term is
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  Helen Tupper: that it is likely that learning will unlock more opportunities for
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  Helen Tupper: your career. So you might think, " Well, how does learning
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  Helen Tupper: a new skill right now help me get paid more
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  Helen Tupper: next week?" It might not to be honest, but what
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  Helen Tupper: it will help you with is next year, the next
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  Helen Tupper: couple of years, you will have more roles that are
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  Helen Tupper: available to you. And the more choice you have, the
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  Helen Tupper: more control you have and the more you can push
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  Helen Tupper: for the pay that's important. So I do think you've
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  Helen Tupper: got to balance short- term conversations about pay progression and long-
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  Helen Tupper: term learning that will create dividends for your development in
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  Helen Tupper: other ways, 2, 3, 4 years hence.
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  Iona Bain: Yes. It sounds like you're talking about an environment in
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  Iona Bain: which people don't have to be loyal to their employer.
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  Iona Bain: Do we need to be thinking a bit more sideways
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  Iona Bain: in terms of looking at what's available elsewhere?
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  Helen Tupper: I want everyone to have the freedom and flexibility to
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  Helen Tupper: develop in the direction that's right for them. We call
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  Helen Tupper: it squiggle and stay. So we want individuals to have
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  Helen Tupper: the awareness to work out what is the right direction
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  Helen Tupper: for me to develop and we want organizations to provide
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  Helen Tupper: more than promotions to make that possible. So I think
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  Helen Tupper: really, whether it's inside an organization or outside an organization,
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  Helen Tupper: I don't want people to feel stuck. I think the
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  Helen Tupper: power of the employer over the employee has changed. I
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  Helen Tupper: think people do have more choices now, but that only
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  Helen Tupper: comes when they take control. You have to invest in
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  Helen Tupper: your learning. It's what makes you valuable, it what makes you
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  Helen Tupper: remain relevant and resilient in your career. I think you
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  Helen Tupper: also just have to have that awareness and confidence in
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  Helen Tupper: talking about your career, in talking about your skills. That
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  Helen Tupper: is what gives you that choice and that control.
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  Iona Bain: So who can we look to for support in developing
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  Iona Bain: ourselves in our careers?
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  Helen Tupper: So in ladderlike careers, we often look to our manager
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  Helen Tupper: as the guru of good advice, the gateway for our
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  Helen Tupper: growth. And what happens if you don't have a great
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  Helen Tupper: manager, suddenly development are very dependent on them and you're limited
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  Helen Tupper: as a result. So what we want to create is a
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  Helen Tupper: community around an individual's career. And this doesn't mean you
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  Helen Tupper: have to know everybody in the company. It doesn't mean
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  Helen Tupper: you need 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. I think there's a principle that's
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  Helen Tupper: really important when you're building a community and then practically
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  Helen Tupper: there's four people that matter most. So the principle is
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  Helen Tupper: this is not just about people knowing people. So it's
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  Helen Tupper: not about casual connections, but strong relationships are built on
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  Helen Tupper: help. And this matters because one, people enjoy helping people.
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  Helen Tupper: So if anyone's thinking, " Oh, I feel a bit awkward
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  Helen Tupper: about networking." Your brain quite likes helping people. It's called
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  Helen Tupper: the helpers high, makes us feel useful, valuable. So thinking
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  Helen Tupper: how can I help is a better way for me
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  Helen Tupper: to start building a relationship with somebody. It also results
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  Helen Tupper: in reciprocity. So when people feel like you've been helpful,
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  Helen Tupper: they want to help you in return. And that's not
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  Helen Tupper: always an immediate action. It could be a month or
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  Helen Tupper: two down the line when you get in touch with
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  Helen Tupper: someone, they're much more likely to respond to requests for
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  Helen Tupper: help, having built that reciprocity.
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  Iona Bain: Enlighten self- interest.
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  Helen Tupper: Exactly. And to be honest, it just feels good. Even if someone doesn't help
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  Helen Tupper: you back, does it really matter? If you've helped someone,
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  Helen Tupper: you feel good. I always think that is good enough. So
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  Helen Tupper: that's the principle. Just think how can I be helpful?
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  Helen Tupper: Now, there are four relationships in a career community that
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  Helen Tupper: make the biggest difference to someone's development. So the first
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  Helen Tupper: is the role of a mentor. A mentor is just
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  Helen Tupper: someone who has done what you want to do. They
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  Helen Tupper: don't have to be more senior than you, could be
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  Helen Tupper: a peer, anyone really. And what you benefit from with
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  Helen Tupper: a mentor is advice, you're borrowing their experience really. Just
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  Helen Tupper: start with a meeting. Now you might have a conversation,
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  Helen Tupper: there might be a connection and you might have a follow-
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  Helen Tupper: up meeting or it might evolve into something more meaningful
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  Helen Tupper: over time. But don't start with this needs to be
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  Helen Tupper: a two- year relationship with somebody because it's quite a
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  Helen Tupper: lot of pressure to put on someone you've not actually
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  Helen Tupper: spent any time with yet. The second one is peer
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  Helen Tupper: relationships. So if a mentor has done what you want
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  Helen Tupper: to do, a peer is somebody who's going through what you are
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  Helen Tupper: going through. There's often a lot of trust and support
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  Helen Tupper: in there. They are experiencing things at the same time.
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  Helen Tupper: So you can share learning with each other. Peers accelerate
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  Helen Tupper: your development. Third one is a sponsor. This is where I
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  Helen Tupper: often find the biggest gap in people's communities. So a
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  Helen Tupper: sponsor is somebody who's got access and influence over an
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  Helen Tupper: area you are interested in. So that could be a
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  Helen Tupper: project that you'd like to work on, could be a
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  Helen Tupper: position that you're interested in. And what they can do
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  Helen Tupper: if you build the right relationship with them is they
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  Helen Tupper: can advocate for you. And the fourth and final one
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  Helen Tupper: is a coach. So coaches are people who will ask
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  Helen Tupper: questions to unlock your thinking, but in the context of
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  Helen Tupper: your community, this doesn't have to be a professional coach.
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  Helen Tupper: I think it's easier to think who do I know
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  Helen Tupper: that has got a coaching approach? So two skills to
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  Helen Tupper: look out for here, the people who ask good questions
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  Helen Tupper: and also to be a good listener because coaches are
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  Helen Tupper: not there to give the answers, they're there to ask
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  Helen Tupper: the questions. You are the person doing the thinking, generating
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  Helen Tupper: your own answers and think it's who have I got
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  Helen Tupper: and who have I not? And just to keep coming
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  Helen Tupper: back to that question because we all have gaps. None
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  Helen Tupper: of them are perfect, but it just helps us to
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  Helen Tupper: prioritize the relationships we need to invest in. It's just
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  Helen Tupper: somebody who is non- judgmental, who doesn't try and switch
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  Helen Tupper: to their experience and go, " Oh, well when I was
• 11:00
  Helen Tupper: in this situation..." Because that's more mental mode. The best
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  Helen Tupper: way that I've found people with coaching approaches have been
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  Helen Tupper: the people that when I worked with them, they asked
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  Helen Tupper: me questions that I found a bit uncomfortable. Like, " Helen, why
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  Helen Tupper: are you actually doing that? What's driving you?" And when
• 11:15
  Helen Tupper: I worked with them, (inaudible) . We're just trying to
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  Helen Tupper: get it done. I don't want to think about this now that's too big
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  Helen Tupper: a question. But now I hold those people in my
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  Helen Tupper: mind because I know you are going to ask the
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  Helen Tupper: hard questions.
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  Iona Bain: They're like a sounding board.
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  Helen Tupper: They are good at holding pauses. They don't interrupt. That's what to look out for.
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  Iona Bain: We all need people like that in our lives.
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  Helen Tupper: We do.
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  Iona Bain: That's so valuable. So when you are thinking about making
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  Iona Bain: a pivot and going in this different direction, people will
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  Iona Bain: fear that it will go wrong. And if it goes
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  Iona Bain: wrong, maybe it's meant leaving a job that had a
• 11:48
  Iona Bain: lot of security and not being as financially stable and
• 11:53
  Iona Bain: having a more difficult time. What would your advice be
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  Iona Bain: to those who are scared about making that next move?
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  Helen Tupper: So there's this fear- based response to change and then
• 12:03
  Helen Tupper: there is a very practical one of, "But what if I
• 12:05
  Helen Tupper: don't enjoy it? And what if I am not good
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  Helen Tupper: at it? I've not done this before." So I think
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  Helen Tupper: there are two different things to work on here. So
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  Helen Tupper: the first one is caging confidence gremlins. And the second
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  Helen Tupper: one is trying to get some exposure and experience before
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  Helen Tupper: you make that move so that you mitigate the risk
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  Helen Tupper: of it going wrong. The confidence gremlin piece, a lot
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  Helen Tupper: of that is moving from limiting beliefs. Like, " What if
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  Helen Tupper: people don't like me in that team? If I fail,
• 12:30
  Helen Tupper: I'm going to be a failure." To more limitless thinking.
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  Helen Tupper: To honest it sounds a little bit cheesy, but the
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  Helen Tupper: truth is that when our confidence gremlins are growing, they
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  Helen Tupper: tell us a really negative story that stops us taking
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  Helen Tupper: action. So when I say limitless beliefs, all I'm saying
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  Helen Tupper: is change the story. So if I do it and I
• 12:47
  Helen Tupper: fail, at least I'm going to learn. And it is
• 12:50
  Helen Tupper: having a statement that you can say to yourself that
• 12:52
  Helen Tupper: gives you at least the confidence to take action. The
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  Helen Tupper: second bit is, " But I don't have experience. I don't
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  Helen Tupper: know anybody, it might not work." Here, I would say
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  Helen Tupper: building a bridge between where you are today and where
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  Helen Tupper: you want to get to is really important. And that do you know people
• 13:06
  Helen Tupper: say, look before you leap. I think this more, the
• 13:10
  Helen Tupper: learn before you leap. Could you shadow somebody? Could you
• 13:14
  Helen Tupper: just get a mentor who tells you about a day
• 13:16
  Helen Tupper: in their life? And the more data you have about
• 13:19
  Helen Tupper: this move for your development, the better the decision you'll
• 13:21
  Helen Tupper: make is and the more informed you'll feel.
• 13:24
  Iona Bain: I mean a lot of young professionals who feel very
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  Iona Bain: disillusioned and trapped on the corporate career ladder because they
• 13:31
  Iona Bain: feel that they need to be at the level they're
• 13:33
  Iona Bain: at in order to afford the lifestyle, but they're not
• 13:37
  Iona Bain: particularly fulfilled. What would your advice be to anyone who
• 13:40
  Iona Bain: feels that they're trapped in that situation and there's nowhere
• 13:44
  Iona Bain: to go?
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  Helen Tupper: It's really hard. We spend a lot of our time
• 13:46
  Helen Tupper: at work and so to feel you're not having the
• 13:49
  Helen Tupper: impact that you want and you're not enjoying what you're
• 13:51
  Helen Tupper: doing, I think there are things that you can do
• 13:53
  Helen Tupper: about it though. I always go back to it was
• 13:55
  Helen Tupper: one of our squiggly skills, which is around values. So
• 13:59
  Helen Tupper: forget job titles and forget the way you work, just
• 14:01
  Helen Tupper: forget all that for a moment. Actually, you at a
• 14:03
  Helen Tupper: very human individual level, what is it that motivates and
• 14:07
  Helen Tupper: drives you? That's all the values are and everyone has
• 14:09
  Helen Tupper: them and they're not things that change. They're pretty stable.
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  Helen Tupper: So when I do these exercises, I have four words
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  Helen Tupper: that always come out. So these are my values, freedom,
• 14:18
  Helen Tupper: growth, energy, and achievement. That is what makes me me.
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  Helen Tupper: They'll be different to your answers, different to other people's answers.
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  Iona Bain: That sounds pretty similar to mine.
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  Helen Tupper: But do you know with values, even when you have the
• 14:27
  Helen Tupper: same word, it can actually mean something different.
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  Iona Bain: Very true.
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  Helen Tupper: So my business partner who is very different, she has achievement.
• 14:34
  Helen Tupper: Her definition of achievement is having one big win to
• 14:37
  Helen Tupper: work towards. That's my idea of a nightmare. I don't
• 14:40
  Helen Tupper: want one big win. My win is having lots of
• 14:43
  Helen Tupper: wins to work on. So even the same word can
• 14:45
  Helen Tupper: mean something different. But the point is when I'm feeling
• 14:49
  Helen Tupper: a bit flat or a bit frustrated, it's often because
• 14:52
  Helen Tupper: my values are not being fulfilled. I haven't got freedom.
• 14:55
  Helen Tupper: I've got a micromanaging manager. And it really helps you
• 14:58
  Helen Tupper: to think, what am I missing at the moment and
• 15:01
  Helen Tupper: what could I do differently? And sometimes the answer is
• 15:04
  Helen Tupper: actually not in work. So I have been in a
• 15:07
  Helen Tupper: situation where I knew what my values were and I
• 15:09
  Helen Tupper: was red and be greening them and there was quite
• 15:12
  Helen Tupper: a lot of red on my freedom, growth, energy and
• 15:13
  Helen Tupper: achievement. I want to do this, but I can't work
• 15:16
  Helen Tupper: out in this organization at this time. How am I
• 15:18
  Helen Tupper: supposed to get this stuff? But I was slightly stuck.
• 15:21
  Helen Tupper: There were reasons that I was in that role that
• 15:23
  Helen Tupper: I could not change immediately. And so what I did
• 15:25
  Helen Tupper: was I found that fulfillment outside of work. So I
• 15:27
  Helen Tupper: still concentrated on achieving inside of work, but these values
• 15:31
  Helen Tupper: are not going anywhere. I'm not going to be happy in
• 15:33
  Helen Tupper: my life if I haven't got these things somewhere. And
• 15:35
  Helen Tupper: so I actually started a side project and these things
• 15:38
  Helen Tupper: that I cared about, I found fulfillment somewhere else. And
• 15:41
  Helen Tupper: then what happened over time is I worked through the
• 15:43
  Helen Tupper: work issues. I stayed in the company that I was
• 15:45
  Helen Tupper: in and I made some changes, but they didn't happen overnight.
• 15:48
  Helen Tupper: But in the meantime, those things that mattered most to
• 15:50
  Helen Tupper: me, I was still finding fulfillment. I also in the
• 15:53
  Helen Tupper: company that I was in, tried to connect with people
• 15:55
  Helen Tupper: outside of my role, make new relationships because that is
• 15:59
  Helen Tupper: what unlocks opportunity.
• 16:00
  Iona Bain: Because not all of us can have the luxury of working
• 16:03
  Iona Bain: in jobs that give us lots and lots of fulfillment
• 16:06
  Iona Bain: and satisfaction all of the time. Sometimes it is a job
• 16:09
  Iona Bain: that will pay the bills and that's okay.
• 16:11
  Helen Tupper: What is important is that you understand, we talk about
• 16:14
  Helen Tupper: using your values as a compass for your career. Let
• 16:17
  Helen Tupper: that be the thing that guides you in what you do.
• 16:20
  Iona Bain: A lot of what you've talked about, it's not necessarily
• 16:23
  Iona Bain: about getting recognition, it's about what drives you and what
• 16:26
  Iona Bain: makes you feel satisfied. So how can we step out
• 16:29
  Iona Bain: of that need for recognition that we all have that
• 16:32
  Iona Bain: I also think maybe is a bit amplified by social media.
• 16:36
  Helen Tupper: So I think when you know what your values are
• 16:38
  Helen Tupper: and you ground yourself in your values, you're less dependent on
• 16:41
  Helen Tupper: validation. And obviously recognition is important, but I think you
• 16:45
  Helen Tupper: also don't need to just rely on recognition. You can't
• 16:47
  Helen Tupper: support yourself with reflection. So what have I done well
• 16:51
  Helen Tupper: this week? Who have I made a difference to? What
• 16:54
  Helen Tupper: am I proud of? Those sorts of questions, we have
• 16:57
  Helen Tupper: an exercise which we call very small successes. So at the
• 17:01
  Helen Tupper: end of every day, particularly if you're going through a knotty
• 17:03
  Helen Tupper: moment, this can really help. Just take two weeks at
• 17:06
  Helen Tupper: the end of every day, force yourself to reflect on
• 17:09
  Helen Tupper: three things that you've done well that day. The first
• 17:11
  Helen Tupper: one you'll find, you'll be like, " I went for a
• 17:14
  Helen Tupper: lunch break." The first one might come-
• 17:16
  Iona Bain: Still a win.
• 17:17
  Helen Tupper: It's still a win. That is exactly it because when
• 17:21
  Helen Tupper: work doesn't feel great, it is very hard for you
• 17:23
  Helen Tupper: to see your wins. The point of this is to see the
• 17:26
  Helen Tupper: very small successes. And if you can keep this up,
• 17:28
  Helen Tupper: three successes a day for two weeks, you will have
• 17:32
  Helen Tupper: 42 small things that you have done well. But 42 things doesn't
• 17:36
  Helen Tupper: seem so small. It starts to be more significant and
• 17:39
  Helen Tupper: suddenly I'm less reliant. My manager's never going to tell
• 17:42
  Helen Tupper: me 42 things I've done well in two weeks. That's
• 17:44
  Helen Tupper: never going to happen. I might get one.
• 17:46
  Iona Bain: You have to tell yourself.
• 17:48
  Helen Tupper: That's it, you have to tell yourself and you don't
• 17:50
  Helen Tupper: have to do this all the time. But I would say
• 17:52
  Helen Tupper: in the hard moments, it is very helpful that you
• 17:56
  Helen Tupper: reflect and recognize your own wins rather than relying on
• 18:00
  Helen Tupper: other people to validate you.
• 18:02
  Iona Bain: So this has been really, really helpful, Helen. But finally,
• 18:05
  Iona Bain: what are your three tips to create a career that works for you?
• 18:09
  Helen Tupper: I think number one, confidence. I think confidence can help
• 18:13
  Helen Tupper: you to be so brave about the things that you
• 18:14
  Helen Tupper: do with your development or it can hold you back.
• 18:17
  Helen Tupper: And I think if you can start to be aware
• 18:19
  Helen Tupper: of what gremlins are getting in your way and start
• 18:21
  Helen Tupper: to change the story that they're telling yourself, it makes
• 18:23
  Helen Tupper: a massive difference to your development. Second is community. This is
• 18:27
  Helen Tupper: very hard to do on your own. Building a community
• 18:31
  Helen Tupper: will help you grow beyond where you are today. And
• 18:33
  Helen Tupper: I think the third thing is don't wait for other
• 18:36
  Helen Tupper: people to do things for you in your development. You'll
• 18:40
  Helen Tupper: start to get frustrated. Create opportunities for yourself. They don't
• 18:43
  Helen Tupper: have to be massive. They could just be, " I'm creating
• 18:45
  Helen Tupper: by sharing an idea. I'm creating by putting a meeting
• 18:48
  Helen Tupper: in place with somebody." Just think, " How can I create
• 18:51
  Helen Tupper: more opportunities for myself this week?" And even if it's just
• 18:54
  Helen Tupper: one thing, it's better than the person who's waiting for
• 18:57
  Helen Tupper: the career conversation six months from now.
• 18:59
  Iona Bain: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Helen.
• 19:01
  Helen Tupper: My pleasure.
• 19:03
  Iona Bain: Helen, that was incredibly insightful and I think we're all
• 19:06
  Iona Bain: feeling a little bit squigglier now. So thank you very
• 19:09
  Iona Bain: much and thank you for listening. I would absolutely love
• 19:12
  Iona Bain: it if you could follow the podcast, leave us a
• 19:15
  Iona Bain: review, and that way you can help others get a
• 19:17
  Iona Bain: little bit richer too. Keep up with the show on
• 19:20
  Iona Bain: YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram at Legal and General. Until next time, see
• 19:25
  Iona Bain: you soon.