Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Law, Mercy, and Violence in Judges (Jillian Ross)

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Law, Mercy, and Violence in Judges (Jillian Ross) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm
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Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Gillian Ross. She's a professor of
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Speaker 1: Biblical studies at Liberty University, and she wrote an article
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Speaker 1: for the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Study that we're
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Speaker 1: going to be discussing today as well as just discussing
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Speaker 1: the Book of Judges a little bit more generally. But
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Speaker 1: the title of the article is let Mercy Triumph over Judgment.
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Speaker 1: A Theology of Law and Judges. And I found the
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Speaker 1: article really helpful and pretty fascinating. And you all know
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Speaker 1: I'm an Old Testament geek anyway, so I thought it'd
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Speaker 1: be a great idea to have doctor Ross on to
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Speaker 1: discuss this. So welcome to the program. Thanks for being here.
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Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for having me. It's a joy
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Speaker 2: to be with you. And it's always a joy to
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Speaker 2: talk about judges with a fellow old testamate nerd.
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Speaker 1: Yeah that's right or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I really appreciated
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Speaker 1: the article because I think it helped address some of
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Speaker 1: the challenges that I think people have when they read
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Speaker 1: through the Book of Judges. I'm done a fair amount
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Speaker 1: of work on the Jeff in the narrative, and so
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Speaker 1: that narrative in and of itself, or Jeff that gives
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Speaker 1: this vow that he's going to sacrifice his only daughter,
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Speaker 1: you know if God, Well, he doesn't actually vow that,
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Speaker 1: but it ends up that way. He carries out this
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Speaker 1: vow and you kind of sit back and you go, man,
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Speaker 1: what's going on here? Like it seems like such an
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Speaker 1: ethical and theological dilemma. And I really feel like your
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Speaker 1: article helps to frame this out a little bit. So
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Speaker 1: maybe give a little bit of an introduction into what
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Speaker 1: you're arguing in the article, and then we can talk
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Speaker 1: a little bit more about some specific instances and judges.
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Speaker 2: Sure, thank you. So the article is addressing the fact
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Speaker 2: that the Book of Judges is showing kind of a
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Speaker 2: decline of spirituality of its people, including its leaders. And
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Speaker 2: then what's consistent though, is God that his character is merciful,
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Speaker 2: and that as the book starts out, you see God
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Speaker 2: acting mercifully and in accordance with his word to the Judges,
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Speaker 2: to the Israelites. But then as the book kind of shifts,
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Speaker 2: you start seeing the leaders like Gideon acting mercilessly and
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Speaker 2: unaware of the scriptures. And so when you get to Jeptha,
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Speaker 2: you're showing not only the ignorance of the law, but
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Speaker 2: his lawlessness in it. That doesn't jive not only with
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Speaker 2: the at the plane reading the story like it's supposed
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Speaker 2: to make you feel like what's going on, but that
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Speaker 2: the Bible itself is teaching us to have a merciful
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Speaker 2: posture that prioritizes human life and dignity.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought that was a really helpful way
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Speaker 1: of framing the law. I think, you know, you reference
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Speaker 1: Dan Block's perspective on this and the way he addresses
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Speaker 1: the Tora. But I'm wondering if you can talk a
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Speaker 1: little bit more about why this is important, so you
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Speaker 1: have I wouldn't say maybe you would, but like laws
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Speaker 1: that stand intention and so you can imagine at some point,
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Speaker 1: you know, it's almost like if we brought it into
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Speaker 1: a contemporary example. You know, if you've got somebody in
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Speaker 1: the car who's bleeding out, do you break the speed limit?
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Speaker 1: And that's almost the sort of conundrum that you're trying
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Speaker 1: to address here, like how do I care for a
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Speaker 1: neighbor if I have to break a separate law? Like
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Speaker 1: where do these two meet? And how do we resolve
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Speaker 1: that tension? So maybe give a little bit of an
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Speaker 1: introduction to that idea.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a great point, and it's
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Speaker 2: actually commonplace in societies where you're gonna have two things
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Speaker 2: that are in contrast and you have That's why we
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Speaker 2: have judges. That's why we have like difficult cases that
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Speaker 2: go to trial, is because you have two facets of
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Speaker 2: a situation that aren't working well together. So for example,
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Speaker 2: in the situation, we would say, of course we want
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Speaker 2: to speed to get that person to the hospital. Like
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Speaker 2: you see that with when I was born, I was
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Speaker 2: almost born in the car, so my dad was breaking
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Speaker 2: the speed limit to get there and we barely made it.
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Speaker 2: So praise God, I'm here today because my dad bro
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Speaker 2: the speed limit. But we have other situations like Jeff
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Speaker 2: though where he made a vow is quite ill crafted
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Speaker 2: because it said anything coming out of my house. And
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Speaker 2: then you have a law basically that says don't sacrifice humans,
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Speaker 2: and with that law you get a further clarification that
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Speaker 2: it's in an abomination. So despite popular belief, there really
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Speaker 2: is a ranking, I would say in the Old Testament
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Speaker 2: of like what's particularly abhorrent to the Lord, and lack
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Speaker 2: of dignity to human life is one of them. So
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Speaker 2: then you kind of look at, well, what's competing do
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Speaker 2: you want to sin by not fulfilling a vow, which
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Speaker 2: is a very serious thing, you know, driving crazy over
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Speaker 2: the speed limit is a very serious thing too, But
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Speaker 2: trying to preserve a human life and getting to the
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Speaker 2: hospital kind of outranks that. And so this is the
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Speaker 2: same thing where the right thing to do for Jepsa
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Speaker 2: would be to find a substitute. And we actually find
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Speaker 2: that several times in scripture, in narratives we have with Saul,
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Speaker 2: he wanted to sacrifice or kill his son because he
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Speaker 2: had eaten unknowingly. That's right, And so what happens then
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Speaker 2: is that the people, or you could maybe translate to
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Speaker 2: the army, they say, hey, wait, he was the deliverer,
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Speaker 2: the human deliverer behind this war, so we have to
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Speaker 2: let's redeem him. And so they came up with a
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Speaker 2: redemption solution.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of. What's fascinating even about that narrative of
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Speaker 1: Saul is you see these instances where Saul is constantly
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Speaker 1: swayed by the people, and so the fact that the
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Speaker 1: people are willing to redeem Jonathan speaks to in that
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Speaker 1: instance at least their character. You know that they're moving
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Speaker 1: saw towards something good, normally they're moving salt towards something
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Speaker 1: kind of bad. And the rest of the book, and
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Speaker 1: so you have these mixed motives. I mean, if we
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Speaker 1: look at I'll be honest, I mean I thought through
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Speaker 1: this a little bit with regard to Jeffa, and this
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Speaker 1: notion that Jeftha not keeping his vow very well could
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Speaker 1: have had consequences for Jeftha, although it wouldn't have had
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Speaker 1: consequences then for his daughter. And so there is a
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Speaker 1: sense in which I'd als sort of thought of Jeffa,
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Speaker 1: as you know, his ambition to get back to a
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Speaker 1: place where he thought he should be and you know,
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Speaker 1: rule over Israel as Judge so clouded his judgment that
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Speaker 1: he just goes through with it. And it's really an
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Speaker 1: act of selfishness and you know, all the bad things
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Speaker 1: that you can think of to ascribe to somebody, that's
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Speaker 1: what Jeffa's doing in that moment. I hadn't really thought
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Speaker 1: of it in terms of Gideon. And you do a
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Speaker 1: lot of work in that Gideon narrative, and so maybe
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Speaker 1: give a little bit of a parallel to what goes
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Speaker 1: on with that Gideon narrative. After God, you know, does
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Speaker 1: all these amazing things through Gideon, and he whittles his
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Speaker 1: army down and he gets the victory, and then Gideon
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Speaker 1: turns almost sadistic.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so if we think about the Gideon story, it's
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Speaker 2: kind of two parts in A and a B. And
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Speaker 2: the A part where we have our Sunday school stories.
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Speaker 2: The best moments of Gideon, which I think are really positive,
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Speaker 2: is where he's really good. And then it's almost sort
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Speaker 2: of like a Chapter Jekyll to mister Hyde because he
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Speaker 2: starts flipping. And that's how the book works. The book
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Speaker 2: has Gideon at the center, and he's also the theological center.
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Speaker 2: Of the book. Not page wise is he the center
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Speaker 2: per se, but story wise he's the middle judge, and
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Speaker 2: we end up having this pivot between fairly positive worship
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Speaker 2: when the leader is with the Lord and early positive
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Speaker 2: warfare and living and then you go and after that
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Speaker 2: second half of Gideon, you start having like the negative warfare.
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Speaker 2: So he's spoiler alert for those that haven't read that
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Speaker 2: section of Gideon. A while. He he does civil warny,
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Speaker 2: he tortures Israelites, and then and then he famously makes
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Speaker 2: a cultic object and all israel it says, prostitutes after it.
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Speaker 2: So he leads Israel into a snare of somewhat faulse
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Speaker 2: or a technical term synchronistic worship, where they're worshiping the
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Speaker 2: right God wrongly. And so Gideon stands at a very
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Speaker 2: interesting spot in that book for that reason. And then
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Speaker 2: the next story is Japtha. So not to get too
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Speaker 2: much into the weeds, but what we say see in
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Speaker 2: the beginning part of this story is God he goes
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Speaker 2: to Jeptha, excuse me, he goes to Gideon and he's like, hey,
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Speaker 2: go deliver Israel, and Gideon's like, hey, God, abandon us,
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Speaker 2: and he doesn't realize that God is right there face
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Speaker 2: to face with him, and then he is convinced he
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Speaker 2: has to purify the group, so he kills the veil
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Speaker 2: Altar and the astro policy he's ritually desecrating them and
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Speaker 2: exalting the Lord. And then at that point it's so beautiful.
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Speaker 2: I think it's often overlooked, is that God has Gideon,
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Speaker 2: whose whole area was worshiping a false God. He honors
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Speaker 2: them and lets them lead in the battle. They were
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Speaker 2: just days ago wanting to kill Gideon because he tore
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Speaker 2: down the veil structure. But God, God is merciful and
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Speaker 2: he allows this like conversion to lead into the battle.
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Speaker 2: But Gideon, on the other hand, when he says, hey,
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Speaker 2: you people on the other side of the Jordan, I'm
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Speaker 2: pursuing the bad guys that have been impressing us. They're life.
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Speaker 2: We're not going on your side. You know when we'll
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Speaker 2: give you food and will help you when you actually
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Speaker 2: bring these people down, And he has no mercy for them,
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Speaker 2: and he ends up saying, hey, you were on my side.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to torture you and I'm going to kill
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Speaker 2: all these these people in your town. He just didn't
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Speaker 2: extend mercy like the Lord. So as the leader, when
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Speaker 2: the story lines with what God was doing and what
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Speaker 2: Gideon were doing were in line, Gideon doesn't act like God.
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Speaker 2: And as leaders of God's people, you know him and
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Speaker 2: then we, by extension as church leaders, should do that
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Speaker 2: as well. So yeah, so then you just see Jeptha
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Speaker 2: kind of acting selfishly and self interest.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing I've always found, well, a couple of thoughts.
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Speaker 1: So number one, this idea that you know, because the
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Speaker 1: leaders aren't following through on God's mercy, I'm wondering, you know,
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Speaker 1: as I'm thinking through the Gideon and the Jefa incident,
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Speaker 1: and then I want to ask you about Samson at
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Speaker 1: some point. But when you just look at the Gideon
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Speaker 1: and the Jeffa incident, it feels like what's happening is
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Speaker 1: both of them are stuck in a situation where they
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Speaker 1: don't feel they have the option of loving neighbor. In
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Speaker 1: other words, they they're trying to achieve something for whatever reason.
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Speaker 1: Then they both have their different motivations, but love for
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Speaker 1: neighbor doesn't seem like it's going to help them accomplish
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Speaker 1: what they want to accomplish, and so they completely abandon right,
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Speaker 1: and so God it's almost as if they forget God
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Speaker 1: is there, which is really interesting and odd, I think
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Speaker 1: in both stories because to your point, you know, Gideon
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Speaker 1: starts there, then he has this miraculous victory where it's
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Speaker 1: clear that God is present with him, and then he
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Speaker 1: sort of falls into this problem. Jeptha is odd because
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Speaker 1: even though God goes silent, right, sort of the last
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Speaker 1: narrative thing we hear from God is you all wanted
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Speaker 1: to worship your idols? Why don't you go ask them
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Speaker 1: for help? As the readers know that God is going
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Speaker 1: to help Israel, but Jetha really does seem to know
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Speaker 1: and narrates the history of God's deliverance to his enemy,
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Speaker 1: and so it's like he's aware that God has delivered ongoing,
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Speaker 1: but then feels like he has to make this vow
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Speaker 1: almost because as he gets closer and closer to battle,
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Speaker 1: he's going, oh, man, I may not get this done.
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Speaker 1: Is that sort of a fair way to understand what's
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Speaker 1: going on here? That that that that absence of focus
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Speaker 1: on the Lord, a lack of attentiveness to God and
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Speaker 1: his presence, is driving now both of these characters to
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Speaker 1: do things that simply because they don't think love of
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Speaker 1: neighbor is going to get them done.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good observation on that, James.
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Speaker 2: I I think you're right, because the spirit is already
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Speaker 2: on Jeptha. The spirits come upon him when he makes
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Speaker 2: the vow, and he kept saying when the Lord delivers.
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Speaker 2: So I think I'm just going to go on a
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Speaker 2: side note for sec I think this is why he
14:44
Speaker 2: can be in the Hall of Faith and Guinea is
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Speaker 2: as well, because at as William Lane says, at the
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Speaker 2: critical moment, they have extraordinary faith, and so does Stampson
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Speaker 2: that you can tear down ahead of this. So at
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Speaker 2: that point, like they we have that part going, but
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Speaker 2: the love of the neighbor is is really not there.
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Speaker 2: I think. Another scholar, Elias says he has a book
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Speaker 2: entitled Self Interest Versus Communal Interest in these later narratives
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Speaker 2: on judges, and it's basically that point that they've lacked
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Speaker 2: the communal party. What I think happened is they're untethered
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Speaker 2: to the word of God, and the word of God
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Speaker 2: in Leviticus is saying, love your neighbor as yourself, and
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Speaker 2: love the Lord your God with all your heart and
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Speaker 2: so that's s Deuteronomy. So when you lose those core
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Speaker 2: facets and don't know those other parts of the law,
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Speaker 2: and it seems like the other people don't or are
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Speaker 2: careless to the fact, that's when things just go wrong.
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Speaker 1: And I find you know you mentioned the spirit coming
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Speaker 1: upon Jeffa. I've had a number of conversations with students
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Speaker 1: over the years as to why the spirit comes upon
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Speaker 1: Jeffa and then he makes the vow, And a lot
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Speaker 1: of students that I've taught wanted to make a causal
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Speaker 1: connection between the spirit coming on Jeptha and then him
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Speaker 1: making the vow, and my encouragement is, no, you actually
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Speaker 1: should see this in a different way. It highlights that
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Speaker 1: the vow is completely unnecessary. The spirit has come upon
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Speaker 1: Jeffa to empower him to go and fight this battle,
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Speaker 1: and he's going to win now. But Jeffa, in his
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Speaker 1: zeal to get done what he's really looking to get done.
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Speaker 1: I usually frame it as he's trying to piggyback. He's
16:33
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, sort of tie his ambitions to
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Speaker 1: what God is going to do. Anyway, he makes this vow,
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Speaker 1: and I said, if you reverse those if he made
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Speaker 1: the vow, and then the spirit came on him. It
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Speaker 1: would feel like a divine endorsement. But the way it's
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Speaker 1: structured in the narrative, it's like, no, this is now
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Speaker 1: just unnecessary. Is that how you'd kind of see that
16:56
Speaker 1: as well?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it that way as well, because in
16:59
Speaker 2: the other stories you have the spirit upon them too,
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Speaker 2: and like the spirits upon the individual, they're impelled and
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Speaker 2: they're successful. It wasn't like our time or we always
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Speaker 2: have the spirit. But I think going back to the
17:12
Speaker 2: student that you're talking to, one of the things I
17:15
Speaker 2: bring up with my students is we have the spirit,
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Speaker 2: and sometimes we act in ways that are contrary. Or
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Speaker 2: we have leaders that were like, how did this scandal
17:28
Speaker 2: happen with this leader? And we forget that even though
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Speaker 2: there's the spirit, people can violate and quench the spirit.
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Speaker 2: It's not exactly what's happening there in Judges. But yeah,
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Speaker 2: I think the order is important to show that it
17:44
Speaker 2: was unnecessary and people have been looking at this for centuries.
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Speaker 2: I was just reading kind of a reception history and
17:55
Speaker 2: even an art of how this issue has been debated.
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Speaker 1: Interesting, So let me let me ask my Samson questions.
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Speaker 1: So there's part of me. So Gideon torturing Israelites, right,
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Speaker 1: Jeffa sacrificing his own kin, and then Samson pulling the
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Speaker 1: pillars down, you know, and crushing the the I think
18:23
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this right. I've been in for Samuel
18:25
Speaker 1: a little too much. Maybe Philistines? Am I right about that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Samson crushing the Philistines, I'm seeing that as
18:34
Speaker 1: a completely different thing because you're dealing with Israelites versus Philistines.
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Speaker 1: How do you how do you view that with Samson?
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Speaker 1: Because he does some really I mean, Samson is just
18:46
Speaker 1: a crazy character anyway, Like he does a lot of
18:49
Speaker 1: different stuff. But yeah, how do you think about Samson
18:54
Speaker 1: from within this grid that you're providing.
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Speaker 2: So Sampson he also has self interest because he's he's
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Speaker 2: not interested in delivering Israel. So even when you read
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Speaker 2: the text at the end, he's like, let me, let
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Speaker 2: me tear this down to have vengeance on my eyes.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's like all these people deserve to die
19:17
Speaker 2: because my eyes and and so God does it. I
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Speaker 2: think here we see God's agenda is one thing, and
19:28
Speaker 2: the delivers agenda, the beginning of delivering is not into
19:33
Speaker 2: delivering but God's gonna use his request to fulfill his function,
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Speaker 2: which was to show that he was more powerful than
19:44
Speaker 2: the other gods and accomplished in the beginnings. And I
19:47
Speaker 2: think it's a really sad commentary because I think the
19:52
Speaker 2: real key is the Gaza story. It's only a few verses.
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Speaker 2: That's where he goes to a prostitute in the middle
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Speaker 2: of the now and then partially leaves, and then to
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Speaker 2: show off, he breaks the gates and has it open.
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Speaker 2: So I like to talk to my students and others
20:11
Speaker 2: and say, okay, if you know Lord of the Rings,
20:14
Speaker 2: you know the Battle of Helm's deep, and you've got
20:17
Speaker 2: this orc and he's got that torch and he is
20:20
Speaker 2: charging and what do you see? The whole like everything
20:26
Speaker 2: focuses on that because you know, as soon as that
20:31
Speaker 2: gate comes, all the bad guys are going to storm
20:37
Speaker 2: the gate and everybody's going to be sacked. Is the
20:40
Speaker 2: normal process. But what does Sampson do. He goes to Hebron,
20:45
Speaker 2: and most of us are like, all right, he went
20:46
Speaker 2: to Hebron with the gates, and we think it's like
20:48
Speaker 2: just up the road. No, it's forty miles. As the
20:52
Speaker 2: crow flies, and so he never says, hey, everybody, let's
20:57
Speaker 2: storm the gates, you know, let's go in, let's deliver Israel.
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Speaker 2: Like there's there's nothing. I mean, do you matter how
21:04
Speaker 2: many people would see him with those gates in forty miles?
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Speaker 2: I don't care how much of a superman he is.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's absurd he so cares nothing for delivering Israel.
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Speaker 2: So I think that shows the progression of just God's prerogatives. Nothing.
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Speaker 2: And in a similar story, just beforehand, the Judais are like, hey,
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Speaker 2: don't you know that the Philistines are controlled? They have
21:29
Speaker 2: no desire for a hay stamps and do you want
21:31
Speaker 2: to try to deliver us? You're pretty strong either. So
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Speaker 2: there's just no interest in God there, and it's culminated
21:38
Speaker 2: in I want to destroy these people from my eyes.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a weird if Samson does exhibit almost
21:49
Speaker 1: like that anth degree of selfishness, even though he's the
21:53
Speaker 1: he's probably one of the more powerful judges that you see.
21:57
Speaker 1: I mean, he's got this extraordinary strength. Is really interesting,
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Speaker 1: but ultimately he yeah, I agree, he doesn't seem to
22:04
Speaker 1: care about much of anything, and so the fact that
22:08
Speaker 1: he ends up destroying the Philostines at the end, do
22:15
Speaker 1: you see that as maybe quasi ironic, but also more
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Speaker 1: as an outworking of God's sovereign deliverance despite Samson not
22:27
Speaker 1: tied necessarily to that love of neighbor bit.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think he loves anybody really but himself.
22:37
Speaker 2: He I mean, his first marriage, he just kind of
22:42
Speaker 2: goes home and pouts and then comes back.
22:45
Speaker 1: Right.
22:47
Speaker 2: He's like I thought the father, I thought he hated her,
22:51
Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's just God, I think, despite Israel
22:56
Speaker 2: And interesting at the end of Jetsa, he there's a
23:00
Speaker 2: civil war against the civil war kind of happens at
23:03
Speaker 2: the end of Gideon, and it then goes to Jephtha
23:07
Speaker 2: and Jeffa's like killing of the Afriamites is one of
23:13
Speaker 2: the biggest losses that are in that passage, and they
23:19
Speaker 2: were the ones at the beginning of the book with
23:23
Speaker 2: Ehood that we're fighting off the Moabites. So it's it's
23:30
Speaker 2: kind of a sad commentary that you've got, like not
23:33
Speaker 2: only just stuff that kills his daughter, he kills a
23:34
Speaker 2: whole bunch of Israelites. Gideon started that a Bibili did
23:39
Speaker 2: some too, and then Samson he doesn't really kill a
23:44
Speaker 2: lot of Israelites. But he doesn't really do any delivery, right.
23:49
Speaker 1: It's almost like the people he kills, the things that
23:52
Speaker 1: he does, he's not at all motivated by any sort
23:56
Speaker 1: of deliverance of anybody. It's like these people are bob me,
24:00
Speaker 1: and now I'm going to do this extraordinary feat and
24:04
Speaker 1: they just happened. This just happens to move in the
24:06
Speaker 1: direction of God's deliverance, right, And it's coincidental almost.
24:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he doesn't even know when the spirit leaves him,
24:15
Speaker 2: when his eyes get couched out. And so I think
24:18
Speaker 2: that's a significant commentary on the sad state of his heart,
24:24
Speaker 2: that here he's got all this power that he can't
24:28
Speaker 2: even tell when it's when the Lord leaves him.
24:32
Speaker 1: So, when we're thinking about love of neighbor within the
24:35
Speaker 1: Book of Judges, maybe here's my question. When I read
24:40
Speaker 1: the Gospels and I see the the question being posed
24:44
Speaker 1: to Jesus which is the greatest commandment? And then you know,
24:48
Speaker 1: you get that part where it's like, well, then who
24:50
Speaker 1: is our neighbor?
24:52
Speaker 3: Right?
24:52
Speaker 1: I think the way I've understood that is you go
24:55
Speaker 1: back to Leviticus and you see within Leviticus sixteen, I
24:59
Speaker 1: think I'm getting right that that we have, you know,
25:04
Speaker 1: one command to love our neighbors ourselves that's related to
25:07
Speaker 1: fellow Israelites, and one command that is to love our
25:10
Speaker 1: neighbors as ourselves related to the sojournals living among us.
25:15
Speaker 1: And so it seems to me that within the Gospel's context,
25:18
Speaker 1: what we're really getting is where we just talking Israelites,
25:21
Speaker 1: where we're talking everybody here Jesus, Like, what does that
25:23
Speaker 1: look like? And so I'm wondering within the Book of Judges,
25:27
Speaker 1: do you see that dynamic yet or is the Book
25:30
Speaker 1: of Judges a little bit more like maybe like what
25:33
Speaker 1: we've seen in Fir Samuel, where David throughout the book
25:37
Speaker 1: generally stays away from harming Israel as close as it
25:42
Speaker 1: gets as J'ariah the Hittite, who arguably is more of
25:47
Speaker 1: a true Israelite than David is in that instance, but
25:50
Speaker 1: he's still you know, it's emphasized as a Hittite. So
25:52
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how that plays itself out in the Book
25:55
Speaker 1: of Judges.
25:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Judges is unique because not entirely unique, because
26:01
Speaker 2: there's continuity, But Judges is about the failure of Israel
26:08
Speaker 2: to prioritize Yahweh and their worship and then eradicate the
26:14
Speaker 2: false worship and through warfare. So I think what happens
26:18
Speaker 2: is in that promised land, Canaanite worship is not allowed,
26:25
Speaker 2: and so we only really see Rayhab who converts in
26:31
Speaker 2: that time period of the conquest and settlement. But it
26:36
Speaker 2: does show the heart that if you convert, you're fine.
26:40
Speaker 2: But to apply it to Israel going like other nations,
26:49
Speaker 2: if you're in the in the Israelite land and you're
26:52
Speaker 2: worshiping other gods, then you have put yourself under God's
26:57
Speaker 2: wrath and so you should be eradicated. So when you're
27:03
Speaker 2: looking at Canaanites, at least from a Juterimistic rating applying
27:08
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy type thinking petitude to the text, then those people,
27:14
Speaker 2: if they're not showing any desire towards conversion to Yahwehism,
27:21
Speaker 2: then they they're up for for death penalty being in
27:28
Speaker 2: God's sacred land, in sacred space. When you go outside
27:32
Speaker 2: of the land, things are different. And I actually think
27:36
Speaker 2: in the Gideon story it's not entirely clear, but I
27:40
Speaker 2: it seems questionable or at least ambiguous. When Gideon goes
27:45
Speaker 2: really far outside of the promised Land to go and
27:49
Speaker 2: defeat the Midianites. At that point, they're fleeing. They're not Canaanite,
27:54
Speaker 2: they're not a threat. So to me, it seems like
28:01
Speaker 2: and God's not speaking at that point either. In the text,
28:04
Speaker 2: it seems like he's gone too far beyond because they're
28:11
Speaker 2: not a threat anymore. Yeah, So I don't think he
28:15
Speaker 2: needed to go that far. I could be wrong. There's
28:18
Speaker 2: not much in the text that would suggest what he
28:20
Speaker 2: did was right other than he had success. It could
28:27
Speaker 2: it could be that he was right. It doesn't really
28:29
Speaker 2: seem very right. It was little ambiguous, Yeah, ambiguous, and
28:34
Speaker 2: I lean towards it doesn't fit well with the the
28:38
Speaker 2: laws on warfare.
28:40
Speaker 1: So if we were to just to give people handles,
28:44
Speaker 1: and I don't think these are you know, the most
28:47
Speaker 1: accurate categories. Maybe, But what we're looking at really is
28:50
Speaker 1: if Joshua is the conquest, Judges is more like dealing
28:54
Speaker 1: with the settlement or the tail end of the conquest somehow,
28:59
Speaker 1: like how we describe that.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the Book of Joshua, you have like
29:04
Speaker 2: several areas that are kind of getting conquered or taken over,
29:08
Speaker 2: but there's still a lot that needs to be defeated,
29:14
Speaker 2: and so the Israelites are needing to extend into other
29:19
Speaker 2: areas in their warfare. But it's mostly them starting to settle.
29:23
Speaker 2: But the text does say like there's going to be
29:25
Speaker 2: warfare in there because Joshua ended there's still much land,
29:30
Speaker 2: and Judges says, you know, go out and extend the land.
29:37
Speaker 2: And a huge motivation is about worship. I actually think
29:41
Speaker 2: the book's more about worship than warfare. I think warfare
29:46
Speaker 2: is a manifestation of prepper worship in that context.
29:50
Speaker 1: And so my aity, No, I mean, I mean, I
29:54
Speaker 1: get where you're coming from with that. So maybe that
29:56
Speaker 1: is this what you mean by that? Maybe I should
29:58
Speaker 1: just I'll ask the question. So, because you're in the
30:04
Speaker 1: land and this is supposed to be sacred to the Lord,
30:07
Speaker 1: devoted to the Lord, the warfare is a mechanism by
30:12
Speaker 1: which we get false worship out of the land so
30:16
Speaker 1: that we can engage in true worship of the Lord. Now,
30:20
Speaker 1: even though that never exactly works itself out, especially that
30:23
Speaker 1: latter part. What we see in the warfare is this
30:26
Speaker 1: attack on idolatry, and in some interesting way, I mean,
30:32
Speaker 1: how does that play out in those back portions of Gideon,
30:36
Speaker 1: where is he not addressing some of the idolatrous practice
30:41
Speaker 1: of the Israelites in that moment and then just taking
30:45
Speaker 1: it too far. So in other words, it's like he's
30:50
Speaker 1: he's choosing to engage in something that is not worshipful,
30:55
Speaker 1: using warfare in a way that is not worshipful, in
30:58
Speaker 1: attacking his fellow Israelites. Kind of how you'd explain it.
31:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just they hadn't They just weren't on his
31:07
Speaker 2: side one hundred percent. They weren't helping him. And so
31:11
Speaker 2: it's very interesting at the being in the book, after
31:14
Speaker 2: the long list of hey you in chapter one, there's
31:17
Speaker 2: a long list of of of like battle Area's conquest
31:21
Speaker 2: and not and and the Angel of the Angel of
31:27
Speaker 2: the Lord, the Messenger of the Lord, let's say, says
31:31
Speaker 2: you have not obeyed my voice. And it's related to worship.
31:38
Speaker 2: You've not kept you know. It's it's like you haven't
31:40
Speaker 2: done these these worship things. And so the Israelites there,
31:44
Speaker 2: their crime is they didn't align with with Gideon to
31:48
Speaker 2: give him provisions. He didn't say anything about worshiping the Lord.
31:53
Speaker 2: And then Gideon, like in that section at the beginning
31:56
Speaker 2: of judges. It's like you're supposed to tear down the
31:58
Speaker 2: cultic the sacred site. That's it. Yes, And what does
32:02
Speaker 2: Gideon do? He are rats a something that's to the Lord,
32:08
Speaker 2: but not the way the Lord would want it. Just
32:10
Speaker 2: like Gideon worshiped the Lord in a desecrated manner, which
32:15
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy says is like the Canaanites. So him Gideon making
32:21
Speaker 2: this this cultic Ephai, which is some sort of auricular
32:28
Speaker 2: like an oracle thing, which is you get your oracles
32:30
Speaker 2: from a prophet, you get it from the Orient and
32:33
Speaker 2: thumime that's in Samuel a good bit.
32:35
Speaker 1: That's it.
32:36
Speaker 2: Those are your options from the Lord. And he's doing
32:39
Speaker 2: it like kind of his own way. And and so
32:42
Speaker 2: again it's he didn't do warfare with the Israelites like
32:47
Speaker 2: God's said. God says, when you hurt a city, tear
32:50
Speaker 2: it down or destroy it, it's because they're acting in
32:54
Speaker 2: false worship. And that's not what.
32:57
Speaker 1: Happened in this case. They're just not aligning with him.
33:00
Speaker 1: It's an act of I need to be in control
33:03
Speaker 1: of this whole thing, and if you're not with me
33:06
Speaker 1: or against me, as opposed to reading that through more
33:09
Speaker 1: covenantal framework and saying, no, if you're engaged in right worship,
33:13
Speaker 1: maybe some of the things I'm doing are apparent.
33:16
Speaker 2: Right, and who knows what their worship was, guessing it
33:19
Speaker 2: wasn't the greatest, but we don't know, right, Yeah.
33:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes more sense. I get Yeah. I
33:27
Speaker 1: like that a lot. I think that framing actually works
33:29
Speaker 1: really really well. So let me ask one sort of
33:35
Speaker 1: last question. So most of my work has been really
33:37
Speaker 1: more on the first Samuel side, and so you have
33:40
Speaker 1: sort of Samuel as sort of quasi the last judge
33:45
Speaker 1: I suppose of Israel, Right, But you have this dynamic
33:49
Speaker 1: where even before you know, you have Eli, and Eli's
33:53
Speaker 1: sons take kind of taking over, and then you have
33:56
Speaker 1: Samuel replace them. And then when the Israelites finally reached
33:59
Speaker 1: their breaking point, it's because Samuel's sons are doing these
34:04
Speaker 1: horrible things in Israel. And so the only judge that
34:09
Speaker 1: I can remember in Judges having a son take over
34:13
Speaker 1: is Gideon. Correct. Right, It's not like a generational succession thing.
34:20
Speaker 1: It's a God raises up the judge, and there isn't
34:25
Speaker 1: a genealogical linkage necessarily between who is before and who's next.
34:33
Speaker 1: How does that, for one, how does that little snippet
34:36
Speaker 1: of Gideon's sun taking over for him change things? And
34:43
Speaker 1: do you see any connection between that and Jeff the
34:48
Speaker 1: sacrificing his only shot at an air that could take
34:51
Speaker 1: over for him.
34:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I I the connection between the sons and daughter.
35:03
Speaker 2: I would just say, is you start getting a theme
35:06
Speaker 2: with Gideon of progeny dying out. So you've got like
35:12
Speaker 2: all his sons but one. Basically it's like his whole
35:15
Speaker 2: line is wiped out because this one acted unlawfully and
35:21
Speaker 2: and killed seventy brothers. Bien alike actually acts instead of
35:27
Speaker 2: like a judge, he's actually a shawl, which is a ruler.
35:34
Speaker 2: He's actually given the title that's like kind of a king.
35:37
Speaker 2: And then he also is more of an oppressor than
35:41
Speaker 2: a deliverer in the story. If fits that role. So
35:46
Speaker 2: you see the children dying off, you end up. I
35:50
Speaker 2: think so at the end of Judges, some people say
35:53
Speaker 2: there's no king in Israel refers to there's no king,
35:55
Speaker 2: but even yahweh it's a popular evangelic with you, but
35:59
Speaker 2: I think it also is there's no physical Yeah, I
36:04
Speaker 2: think the plane reading there is an accurate reading and
36:09
Speaker 2: so I think it's showing the chaos. There's no gymnastics succession, right,
36:15
Speaker 2: and the person writing is whenever they're writing, they've seen
36:18
Speaker 2: good and bad kings. There's only eight good kings in
36:22
Speaker 2: Israel's history. So even write all problems with monarchy, it
36:30
Speaker 2: still is a better option than like the wild wild West,
36:34
Speaker 2: so to speak. There's no success there. These people aren't
36:38
Speaker 2: really functioning well. They're not making Yahweh center or or
36:44
Speaker 2: caring about the things of God and loving their neighbors
36:46
Speaker 2: very well.
36:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean that first Emuel twelve where
36:50
Speaker 1: Samuel goes back and eventually tells Israelize that they're going
36:53
Speaker 1: to get a king. What I've always found fascinating is
36:56
Speaker 1: he basically says, yeah, you can have your king, but
36:58
Speaker 1: the problem remains the problem you've always had, Like you know,
37:02
Speaker 1: because he says, if you will fear the Lord and
37:04
Speaker 1: keep his commandments, all will go well with you. But
37:06
Speaker 1: now your king also has to do that too, And
37:10
Speaker 1: so you're not changing the game here, you're just rearranging
37:13
Speaker 1: the pieces on the board. Putting someone in this role
37:16
Speaker 1: doesn't solve the problem. Like you all have the same
37:19
Speaker 1: obligations and responsibilities you always had. Now you just have
37:23
Speaker 1: a king over you, right, And so I think you're right.
37:27
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that they're struggling with this idea
37:30
Speaker 1: of they're just the chaos reigns, and some of that
37:34
Speaker 1: has to do with there's no king over Israel. And
37:37
Speaker 1: maybe at the end of Judges, like the way I
37:39
Speaker 1: would tend to read that last line isn't not even
37:42
Speaker 1: the Lord is the king. What I was sort of
37:45
Speaker 1: always thought was it was gesturing toward more of a
37:48
Speaker 1: messianic push, right, that that you know, you have this
37:53
Speaker 1: projection toward like there is a ruler who can fix
37:57
Speaker 1: so much of this. It's not about shifting from a
38:01
Speaker 1: no kingship to kingship, and we think the shifting governance
38:04
Speaker 1: is going to help us, But it's more like there's
38:07
Speaker 1: a projection toward that Messianic king. I don't know how
38:10
Speaker 1: you feel with that, but you know.
38:12
Speaker 2: I think if you have that chrystological push, there's there's
38:17
Speaker 2: also there's no deliverer like the Lord Jesus Christ, right,
38:22
Speaker 2: And we see all these human deliverers are just, but
38:25
Speaker 2: even the best of them, Ye, are our flawed in
38:30
Speaker 2: some way or or need assistance? From from a helper.
38:35
Speaker 2: You know, it's Deborah and Baroque that deliver. And so
38:39
Speaker 2: I think when we read, you know, always looking to
38:43
Speaker 2: the fact that we have this divine human, the Lord
38:47
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, that's that's going to That is the solution
38:52
Speaker 2: I think is a solid red.
38:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, because even if you wanted to go to like
38:57
Speaker 1: a David or a Solomon, sort of have to admit
39:01
Speaker 1: that as faithful as they were, they got their problems.
39:03
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Solomon basically did everything that Samuel said
39:08
Speaker 1: a king would do, and he wasn't saying that in
39:11
Speaker 1: glowing terms, and so you kind of sit back and
39:13
Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, that's uh, that's what it was. Right, Well,
39:18
Speaker 1: this has been really good. We're kind of coming close
39:20
Speaker 1: to the end of time here. You've done a lot
39:23
Speaker 1: of work in the Book of Judges. What do you think,
39:25
Speaker 1: just you know, for everyday Christian approaching the Book of Judges,
39:29
Speaker 1: any advice on how to approach it or what message
39:34
Speaker 1: to really look for if they read it, you know,
39:36
Speaker 1: what's a what's a recurring theme that would help them
39:38
Speaker 1: get their hands around this book?
39:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, all have sinna come short of the story of God.
39:49
Speaker 3: So I think if you read it looking so the
39:53
Speaker 3: author and then and the way he narrates, he doesn't say, oh,
39:59
Speaker 3: by the way, this is wrong.
40:02
Speaker 2: So the book is written really interestingly, it's written if
40:06
Speaker 2: if you know the law, you'll be able to interpret
40:09
Speaker 2: it well because you'll see the incongrities. So it's almost
40:13
Speaker 2: like he who has ears to hear, let him hear
40:15
Speaker 2: the trouble with us as New Testament more oriented for Christians,
40:21
Speaker 2: we don't know those laws too well. So just don't
40:24
Speaker 2: take it as oh, this happened. The narrator didn't say
40:28
Speaker 2: anything bad about it, therefore it's fine or good. So
40:31
Speaker 2: kind of just look at it as it's going progressively
40:34
Speaker 2: down deborn Barack shining moment. Other than that, not so much.
40:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:44
Speaker 2: So, and it's God's saying, this is what happens when
40:47
Speaker 2: people don't follow me. They're gonna fill in their worship
40:52
Speaker 2: their warfare. You're gonna have waning leadership. It's just a disaster.
40:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. And in the treatment of it's a picture.
41:04
Speaker 2: Worship, WoT worship, women, waning leadership.
41:08
Speaker 1: Waning leadership. There you go, it's four ws. I like it, Yeah,
41:11
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a picture of what happens when
41:13
Speaker 1: we try to run things ourselves. It's like, that's helpful.
41:18
Speaker 1: I like that women warfare, worship, and waning leadership, waning leadership.
41:23
Speaker 1: I think I got all four. That's great.
41:25
Speaker 2: Well, Jillian, thanks joing to be here.
41:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been awesome and this has been a great conversation.
41:30
Speaker 1: I really appreciate being on the show today.
41:32
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for having me.
41:34
Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, we'll call it quits there and we'll
41:37
Speaker 1: catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian Take
41:39
Speaker 1: care of Everybody. I just want to take a second
41:42
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41:45
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41:47
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