Latest / Student Ministry Conversations / 276 | Anchored Faith: When Doubt Shows Up | SMC Podcast
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hey, and welcome back to the podcast. We are in week three of October, which means that the just holidays of the of the fall are coming coming closer and closer. First one's just a couple weeks away, which leads to busyness. Football's gearing up and moving on, and a lot of sports are about to start. And so there's a lot of things going on. lots of things that are getting students involved in different areas. but we have been doing this theme for the month of October on the idea of anchored faith. And so with this idea of anchored faith, basically just talking about, you know, when it gets busy, when things don't go your way, when things aren't exactly how you saw them or how you predicted them to be, like when things shake up, Christ holds strong. and so the goal for October is not to teach students how to avoid uncertainty. The goal is to help leaders form students whose faith is deep enough to remain rooted when uncertainty inevitably comes. And it's going to come. We all know this as adults, we've all seen it, we've all dealt with it. and so it's our job as youth pastors to equip students to understand that. uncertainty is unavoidable. It's going to happen. You're gonna be unsure in things, but we can be sure in the fact that Jesus is who he says he is and that Christ holds together even when we don't. So, week one, we talked about a faith that lasts. We talked with we talked about roots over reactions. and then last week we talked about facing fear from faith. and we talked about the dynamic of just, you know. What does faith actually look like in students and how do fa how do students use faith to overcome the fears of life that come? and how do they hold strong in that effort? And so both of those were episodes we've already done. That was 274 and 275. You should definitely go back and look at those. But this week we are kind of shifting gears, and we are talking about the idea of when doubt shows up. and so I'm sure we've all kind of had the idea of or we we probably it unless you're relatively new, you might not have had this yet. But if you've been in your ministry situation for a little while, you probably had a student that you've ministered to for years approach you and say something to the nature of like, Hey, can I ask you something? I don't I don't know if I believe this anymore. And so we we've we've probably experienced that. If you haven't, I would say that it's probably going to happen. because I mean there's there's a world of voices outside of ours telling them what to do. and sometimes they don't tr believe that our voice is the voice that they need to listen to, and it happens. So what happens inside you in that moment? Is it panic? Is it defensiveness? Like, you must have just not like You obviously didn't hear me correctly because I told you this and I told you this would come. Like, do we get defensive? Do we panic? Do we freak out? Do we suddenly need to deliver this 45 minute lecture on apologetics? Like, I don't know how you play this out, but maybe the more important thing that you can say first is, hey, hold on, you know, tell me more about that. And we've talked about this before because when you ask questions like that, you're showing value, you're showing appreciation for the student, and you're showing that their voice matters. And so with that being said, that statement could mean a hundred different things. Maybe they've encountered an intellectual question that they just can't answer themselves. maybe they're hurting. Maybe someone they trust challenged their belief. Maybe they're confused about scripture. Maybe God didn't answer a prayer in the way that they expected. That one happens a lot. or maybe they're just simply beginning to examine the beliefs that they inherited as children. Maybe mom and dad's theology wasn't near as good as they thought it was. Don't answer a question that you haven't understood yet. Tell me more gives you opportunity to lay the foundation and develop the groundwork around what you're hearing so you have better ammo to answer the question that's coming. So when students bring us doubt. Our first responsibility isn't defending ourselves. And I I mean, I am the world's worst when it comes to this. David can tell you I am defensive. I am very, very good at saying no, no, no, no, no, no. I wasn't wrong. Like, but it's something that I'm working on just like everybody else probably needs to work on it. it's not about defending yourself, it's about understanding them. Okay, because not all doubt is the same. We often put everything under the category of doubt, but students can wrestle in different ways. And there are intellectual questions like how do we know that Christianity is true? Maybe someone threw a wrench in what they thought was true. Then there's experiential questions. Like, why didn't God answer me? There's relational questions. Why did Christians treat me like that? There's emotional questions. Why why does God feel so distant? If a student's actual struggle is grief and we hand them an apologetics book, we have made we might have answered the wrong question. Like if if they're if they're wondering about why their friend that says they're a Christian is ruthlessly bullying them at school and we treat it like a different situation, that's not gonna help. So listen carefully. I think that's a huge dynamic that we have to follow through with on these, because you can't fix what you don't know and you can't direct what you haven't heard. So do your best to have those moments, to have those opportunities that you can sit down and actually listen because that's the important side of this. speaker-1: I think it's worth asking the deeper questions too, because sometimes a student doesn't necessarily know what they need. They just know that they feel like they're in crisis and they're in panic mode. A lot of times when they come to you like that, doubting when they feel like they're not allowed to doubt feels like they're sinning. and when if it's the first time that they've ever really experienced their faith. being shaken in a certain way and they feel like it's crumbling around them, panic is usually the first response because they go, no. What do I do? Am I and they start to look internally and they go, What's wrong with me that my faith is not stronger? What's wrong with me that I'm doubting? What's wrong? What am I doing wrong? What am I saying wrong? What am I feeling wrong? What I'm what am I thinking wrong? And in those situations, they don't always necessarily know how to articulate those things. And so they come and they go, And if all you get is You don't know how to fix that, right? It's like, okay, it's like going to the doctor, I'm hurting, okay, on a scale of one to ten, how bad does this hurt? Okay, from that number, all right, let's let's start to narrow things down, right? And so ultimately asking those those questions helps us kind of narrow down what does the student need in this moment? that we can actually address. And sometimes you gotta kinda dig down through the layers because f when when faith becomes shaken because of doubt, sometimes we put up extra walls and and it takes a little bit of of sifting to kind of get down to the actual root of the problem. And once you do that, then it gives you a a much better platform of okay, this is what you're struggling with. Let's let's talk through it and let's let's come up with a plan that's gonna help the student. I think it helps also speaker-0: Yeah, no, definitely. And I I think there's a I think that's an important dynamic is like, you know, questions are questions aren't the enemy. Like I I think the more questions and the more clarification we can have, the more understanding we have. And so we shouldn't be afraid of questions. Like Christianity has had a long intellectual tradition. like some of the biggest and brightest minds have wrestled and thought through the ideas of Christianity. I mean all the way back to early church fathers, all the way back to the disciples, all the way back to way before Jesus, because even Moses and Abraham and Isaac, and Isaiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, they all had to wrestle with these dynamics of questions. you look at you look at the mindset of Job, Job was like, dude, like I I I don't like why? Why is this happening to me? Like, so these questions are not a bad thing. and I think we really, really have to work on that dynamic of maybe not demonizing questions or feeling inferior when we have to ask questions to understand the situation that we find ourselves in. and so students don't need to pretend that difficult questions don't exist either. We're doing a disservice to students if we do. and they need adults that are willing to explore those questions honestly. Before we got on the podcast, I was telling David, like, I I've really, really enjoyed the the high school as of late because I I I think I finally broke through and the floodgates have kind of opened with this idea of like they can ask me questions. and I'll answer what I do know and I'll look up what I don't know. And I think this dynamic of like these questions that are being asked are huge because I've had conversations and I might have brought this up in a previous episode, but I've had a student that is like, hey, I'm sitting with my friends at school and they're Mormon And we've been having conversations about Mormonism versus Christianity or versus Methodism at the table while we're eating lunch. And they've asked some questions that I can't answer. so like, could you help me answer those? And then I just had a student this week text me, hey, I have a friend that's practices a homosexual lifestyle, and I believe that that's wrong, and I've told him that's wrong, but I don't know how to articulate that as good as I need to. To help them understand why. So could you help me explain? And so, like, questions are not bad, and seeking advice and seeking answers from other people is not bad. And it's something we really, really need to push students to strive for because when they think that they're the utmost knowledge, or when they think that they can't get answers from anywhere else, they're going to fall. There is not a single student that has all the answers. There's not a single adult that has all the answers. And the faster that we can get kids to realize that they can ask questions and they can research what they need to research and they can seek others wisdom and seek counsel from people that they trust, those things are super, super important. and they just need a adults that are willing to explore those questions honestly. and so that means sometimes saying, Hey, you know, that's a really, really good question. I actually did that la this week with the kid that texted me about the friend with the homosexual lifestyle. He he sent me a paragraph of a text message. And I was like, dude, that is a phenomenal conversation. I really want to make sure that I have time to do my due diligence on answering this as articulately as I can, because I see the need for clarification that you're asking for. So, like, let me let me think through this, let me compile my thoughts, and then I'll send you a response instead of just sending you one quick back right now. And he was like, yeah, I totally understand that. Thank you. and so sometimes we just really have to say, you know, that's a really good question. Give me a second to answer that though, because that's a that's a really, really big question, and I want to make sure that I answer that. and then sometimes here's how Christians have historically understood this. Is another adequate way of throwing throwing your answer into the ring. It's like, you know, well, what is what does the Bible say about this? What is like, well, here's what the Bible has said, here's what scholars believe it means, and here's what it has been generally understood as for the past multiple centuries. Like answers like that where you dig into the history are are great. But sometimes I don't know is a perfect answer too. So there's tremendous discipleship power in those three words when they're followed by, but let's find out. I don't know, but let's find out. Students don't need leaders who pretend to know everything. They need trustworthy guides. So you don't have to have every answer to be a safe person for someone's questions. You just have to have a willingness to pursue those questions with them. So with that though, doubts should be explored. I I really don't know where this idea came up a couple decades to century ago where where like if you have doubts, like you don't have faith in Jesus came up because like that is one of the most wild and outlandish things I've ever heard. Like there are so many people that God honors and glorifies and like speaks highly of in the Bible that had doubts. Like doubt does not have a negative connotation to it as long as that doubt is pursued to find an answer. Creating room for doubt doesn't mean that every answer is equally true though, and this is important. We aren't saying believe whatever works for you. We're saying let's pursue this together. That's the difference between a ministry that allows questions and a ministry that has no convictions. Because, and that's that's an important parallel there, because there's unfortunately a large growing group of churches that are just like, hey, you know, your convictions, like you you follow your convictions, whatever you feel is right, do it. And it's like, that's not what Jesus said at all. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. Be like me. How do we know who Jesus is? We read the Bible. How do we know who will how to follow and how to become closer and closer to his image? We see what he did in Scripture. And students are going to have questions like this, and we have to use just we have to use the resources that we've had for centuries and say, look, well, I really feel like when we do this, that like when we answer these questions, we have to look back at the Bible. We have to look back at what Jesus said. Because there's no second doubting what Jesus said. Jesus is God. If you're in a church that believes that, then like, first off, you're a Christian, congratulations. secondly, with that, the other dynamic is is like when we believe those things, when we believe that the word of God is the word of God, then like we use that as a foundation for our beliefs. We have to have convictions. We have to believe that Christianity makes truth claims. We have to believe that scripture matters and we have to believe that Jesus is Lord. Because when we believe the truth matters, we are willing to investigate questions rather than suppress And man, once you get that floodgate open of students feeling free to ask questions, holy smokes, you will get some of the most deep seated theological questions from high schoolers and from junior high kids that you would never dream of getting from adults in your congregation. Because they are not afraid to ask questions. They just need permission to. David, because I feel like I've done almost all the talking and I apologize. How do we walk with a doubting student? speaker-1: As we said earlier, don't panic. You know, listen to what they have to say and then I would say again clarify the question. clarify what they're actually asking, dig deeper, and don't shame them. You know, hear what they're saying and it's okay to You know, sometimes we're a little bit afraid of the the affirm word because of what that means in in cultural context, but you can affirm a a a doubting question by saying, Hey, I appreciate that you're asking questions. Keep asking questions, keep keep digging deeper and finding out. You know, I think one of the the big differences that we have to understand from culture is the way that we, you know, Brent and I as millennials grew up versus the way that Jen Alpha and and even a little bit of Gen Z. we're mostly dealing with Gen Alpha at this point. the difference in our cultural context is that we grew up being told this is the way it is, it's black and white, believe this, don't believe this. Now go go and and and sin no more. Gen Alpha, Gen Z are kind of the first generation to truly have A full picture of what else is out there, so to speak. And and other side of his understanding that new things are being created every day, new thoughts, new identities, new all kinds of things. And and I know we can go very much into the weeds with that, but I think and we don't want to, but the truth is we gotta we gotta talk about it because you know. Growing up it was us versus other denominations and now it's us versus other denominations and other religions and other other identities, and take that however you will, and and other kinds it really is. And and you know, we didn't have this big arching internet that said, Hey, here's all the information for all the schools of thought, for all the beliefs and for all the doubts, all in one place that you can find in a in a quick ten second. AI search that will give you all the information in real time. And you don't have to research anymore. It'll just tell you. And so I say all of that to understand the ground that we're we're walk we're working with. Like this is the ground that we're walking on. It's very shaky and it's not as black as white, black and white as it was when we were growing up. It we were said, we were told this is this is the word of God. This is the lamp. Walk with God. And he and this Bible will tell you everything you need to know. And yet the new generations have this that says, follow this or don't follow this. Go this route. Maybe just combine them all and just believe everything. Let's be honest, from a theological standpoint, more people they're hearing more of a universalist view of all dogs go to heaven than what we got. And that's the we have to kind of Recognize and wrestle with that. When you have a thousand different belief systems all being shoved down your throat, yeah. That contradict each other. W we have to wonder why these students are struggling with doubt. Of course they are. It's all contradictory. We were we were given this word and said this is the inerrant word of God. Now follow Jesus. And we said, okay, great. So why is it that we're not wrestling as hard? Because we had a foundation from A younger age Maybe that's not true for everybody. I I am generalizing here. and I showed in everybody's faith journey is a little different. But I think for the most part, most of us were given a foundation of a very black and white foundation of this is who Jesus is, this is what the world is. Choose your path. You got this way or you got this way, and now they're being told you got the this way. Like and they're confused. And so of course they're confused. Of course they have doubts. And and we have to I I think if we recognize that from the start, that they have a million different paths more than we ever had, we can we can come at them with a more understanding and more loving direction because it's not necessarily their fault. And I think sometimes we can look at them go, And maybe this is just me, but like I don't struggle with doubt when it comes to Jesus. God has has really gifted me and I and I've had to kind of come to a point of understanding, like I don't struggle with doubt personally. Why? Because God gave me a spiritual gift of faith and I just go, now I I do struggle with self-doubt, but I don't doubt God for a second. If God says, then I believe him. And it's always been that way. Like I can't remember a time where I doubted God ever. and so, but that's my faith journey, which is different than other people's faith journey. And we have to recognize that all of us are on a journey. And when we realize that, and when we recognize that not everybody just, you know, and some people, and I've been accused of this a lot, of just blindly believing everything. I don't think it's blind. I actively choose to believe God because I believe everything that he says he is. Hebrews 13, 8, he's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. That's an anchoring faith for me. Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, I trust him and I obey him, and I know he'll guide my path. Those are anchoring things for my faith. Yeah. But I've gotten to that point through my own wrestling and my own, you know, spiritual gift of of faith that God has given me. And unfortunately not everybody has that, or maybe they're not quite to that point yet. And so When we go into it with the right mindset, understanding that they are thrown. so many things and so much knowledge and and so much of it contradicts each other, it helps us come at at it from a a more loving standpoint. Yeah. A more graceful standpoint. We're not shaming them. We're giving them we're we're first we're listening and then once we've listened and understood what they're what ultimately they need We can give them the resources that are appropriate to the actual question that they're trying to get to. But you gotta do a little digging and you gotta give them time and intentionality. Then we can stay relationally present. Then we can do maybe the most important part of all this is Like actually asking the question. Like like don't just allow a student to interpret I have a question as I no longer belong here. Instead keep inviting, keep checking in, keep listening to them and keep loving them. Because ultimately students need time to wrestle with their doubts. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That's that's probably the biggest i i if you didn't hear anything else I said, I'm getting preached now. But if you didn't hear anything else I said, hear this right here. Students need time to wrestle because you and I, who've been walking this faith a lot longer, I mean let's be honest, I have believed in Jesus longer than any of my students have been alive. So where I'm at in my journey, it would be unfair for me to not give them the time to wrestle. Because guess what? Someone gave me the time to wrestle. And though maybe I didn't wrestle in the same way, maybe I didn't have it as hard as some of them do, I still was given the time. And we need to remember that. Sometimes they just need that time and students should never have to choose between being honest about their questions and belonging to Christian community. They should know that there is enough space and that God is big enough for their questions. speaker-0: Yeah. No, definitely. And I I think the the dynamic behind it, you know, I mean you said all of them, but like I think even youth pastors with the best intentions sometimes fall into the mindset of answering questions in a way that brings shame. Like I David said this before on the on the podcast. Practice your face in the mirror. Practice your face in the mirror. Because it's important. If a student comes to you and says, Well, I'm not sure I believe Jesus is the Son of God anymore and you look like they just said the dumbest thing in the world. They're they're gone. Like you're you're not gonna get the chance to answer that question because it's gone. Like they're they're they've already moved on, they're gonna check out because they've seen that they tried to ask a question that they were wrestling with and your face answered for them. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: So maybe a student will ask you something this year that you can't answer. Good. Maybe, maybe it's a question that you know the answer to and it seems so elementary to you, you still have to pursue it. You still have to give it the time of day and answer it like everything else. Because even though it might not be a question for you, it is a question for them. Like David said a second ago, we have to give them time to wrestle with things. If they don't wrestle, they never come to agreement with it. speaker-1: Yeah. And I think giving the time, like you may have the answer. Let's be totally honest. Sometimes students hit us with doozies and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they they literally lob a softball and you can hit it out the park immediately. Intentionally practice going that's a great question. Even though you think it's juvenile, even though you think it's elementary, go, that's a really cool you can really edify a student in a in a great way by going, Wow, that's a really good question. Can I can I take a second just to t just to chew on that a little bit? and get you I want to make sure that I'm giving you a good answer. I can show that student love, intentionality, and grace by by demonstrating in that moment. There's a discipleship element of going. I'm gonna wrestle with that a little bit. I'm gonna pray about that a little bit. And and and I'm gonna I wanna make sure that I'm giving you a good answer. You're showing them intentionality. You're showing that you don't just go with the first answer, even though you already have one. and and and here's the other side of it. Just because I have an answer that I might feel like is hitting it out of park, what if I'm wrong? I'm still speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: a human being. I still mess up, and so by showing them that, we're also giving them the real world like Application of discipleship. I hear your question. I appreciate your question. I'm gonna listen and I'm gonna pray about it. Before I answer that, I wanna take it to God and and hear what God has to say about this thing. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You're still showing them, you're modeling what discipleship looks like by I'm gonna think about it, I'm gonna pray about it, and I'm gonna read scripture. That's three practices that should be a daily rhythm for all of us. And so you're showing those students that those daily practices matter even when you know the answer. speaker-0: Yeah. Well and the thing is is like when you even when you ask like when you get challenged with a question or when you get tossed a softball, like when you do like when you're asked questions that you don't immediately jump to the answer of, it reminds us that we are not the foundation of their faith. Jesus is. And so our job isn't to create students who repeat everything that we taught without examination. If like if you have ever sat under a good teacher, they should have told you, don't just take my word for it. Read and find scripture that backs up and supports it. Pray about it and seek counsel from spiritual mentors that you trust to make sure that this is accurate. It doesn't matter who's speaking. There's some great pastors out there, but everybody should be checked. We want students who increasingly understand why they believe what they believe. So don't panic when questions come. Listen. Walk alongside them. Seek truth. And then keep pointing them towards Jesus. A question doesn't have to be the end of faith handled well. It can become an invitation to a deeper one. If we do not Allow questions, we will never get to the moment to where that invitation in to their life is an opportunity for them to grow deeper. So don't be afraid of questions. Don't be afraid of I don't know, but always pursue with let's find this out together. I think that's all we got for today. while I mean, while this is a still a thirty minute podcast episode, it is one of those that's like, you know, there's there's a pretty direct way of handling this. When a student arises with doubt, you gotta listen to You gotta give them time of day. You gotta show them that they're worth it. You can't belittle what they're doing. Like you gotta give them opportunities so they can feel heard and seen and valued, and then you use that opportunity to grow them deeper in their faith. speaker-1: And I would encourage you, be intentional. When that happens, write it down and let your student know. Like let them see it. Like they'll ask me a question. And a lot of times what will happen, I go straight to my notes section, I write down the question, and then and I let them see, okay. By the way, I'm not texting. I'm I'm writing down your question and then I let go and I'm even putting this in my calendar to remind me later to ask you about it that next week. Like and I show them that. Why? Because I want them to know that this matters to me. Your question matters to me. Yeah. And I don't want to forget and I don't want to you know, 'cause we can't. We can get so busy that it's easy to get lost. I mean Let's be honest, a lot of times a student's gonna ask you a question. They're not the only student asking you a question today. you're probably gonna get another one, or you might get a different oper a different situation that arises. Or what happens when a student asks you a really good question and then another student comes up to you and says, Man, I'm just really, really struggling. I found out my grandma's dying of cancer. All of a sudden that question becomes backburner in our minds because we're trying to care for this other student. Remember that we sometimes are juggling a lot and or sometimes it's it's our own personal stuff. And so always, always take notes and set yourself a calendar reminder. Some of you guys might be really good at remembering stuff. I'm not, and so I have to write things down. I have to put it in my calendar. If it doesn't exist in my notes or my calendar, it's gonna get forgotten. And so It helps to have those those extra notes that that give you that opportunity to then make sure you're following up. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. And I I think I I definitely think that that's a huge dynamic. and it's it's something that's really, really important. because like well, I mean, I I think we've kind of hit it over and over and over with this. and so yeah, you you gotta be intentional, you gotta give them the time of day, you gotta use those opportunities to challenge and push and grow. And I mean at the end of the day, hopefully you'll get to see the return from that. You might not. but you can always utilize that as an opportunity for you to have confidence and know in the fact that you were contributing to their growth and not just them kind of being there for the sake of being there. So but yeah, with that being said, that's all we have for this episode. If you have enjoyed this podcast, first off, thank you so much. We say that up every episode. we never had any inclination or any idea that it would get as big as if we have. but we man, we have we have so much fun week to week doing this. and it's just also an accountability time for each other. me and David are best friends. and so with that, we we spend a lot of time talking about life and ministry and everything on Zoom calls before we get on to do these podcasts. and so this is this is just as life-giving for us as we hope it is for you. and so our goal is that you are in. inspired, equipped, and encouraged to be a better youth pastor for the church that you're serving in. and so with that, we ask two things of you. if you if you like this podcast, share it with your youth pastor friends. we really, really appreciate any word of mouth that we get as far as advertisement and sharing because that's all we do. We are both youth pastors. We don't make any money off of this podcast. and quite honestly we really just want this to organically grow. If it grows, we see that as God's blessing. If it's not, then we're like, you know, all right, maybe the season's over. But with that, we have seen time and time again the growth and the encouragement from that. So share it with your youth pastor friends if you find this content enjoyable or informative. and then also we'd love to hear from you. you feel free to reach out and comment on any of our social medias. send us a message on social media at Talk Student Men on Instagram and Facebook. and then, or you can send us an email, podcast at student ministry conversations.org. We'd love to talk to you. and yeah, it it'd be a great opportunity for us to hear some more. We love hearing from people that actually listen to the podcast. and so with that, if you would do those two things for us, we'd very, very much appreciate it. and then as always, we've been doing this for the last I say as always. We've been doing this for the last couple months. and it's it's getting to be where we've done it for pretty much this whole season. we close in prayer. So if you will close with us, we'd love to pray over you. Love to pray over the idea of this episode. and just that God can utilize you as a youth pastor to reach the kids that are in your ministry. God, we thank you for this day. We thank you for the opportunity and privilege it is to be your hands and feet. God, what what a what a overlooked thing w that we take for granted, that we have the privilege of working alongside you in ministry. and God, we just pray for those moments and those opportunities they come. We pray for Wednesday nights and Sunday nights and Sunday mornings and every other time that we have interactions with you students. God, and we just pray that as as doubts arise and questions come, that you give us boldness and encouragement. and the wisdom to respond to those questions accordingly. but God also give us patience and he patience and the peace to rest on those questions for a bit before we just give immediate answers. I just pray that you will be with the youth pastors that are listening to this, give them confidence in what they're doing, give them a boldness to proclaim your gospel to the students of their communities. And God, I just pray that you will give them a reassurance that they are where they are supposed to be and they are working alongside you in the work of the kingdom so that we can see more students come to know you. Because at the end of the day, that is all it's about is to bring more people to you. We thank you for our time together. We thank you for this podcast. and God, we just pray that you bless everyone that's listening to this. We thank you and we love you. Amen.