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49. Antidepressed by Beverley Thomson · Radically Genuine

0:01
[kel]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast dr roger mcfillin for our fans out there
0:07
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0:12
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0:18
[kel]: we know from our numbers that there's a lot of people out there who are
0:21
[kel]: fans of the topics and we do do bring in topics that are outside
0:25
[beverley_thomson]: yes
0:26
[kel]: the main stream and people are interested in hearing more about our perspectives and the
0:31
[kel]: perspectives of our guests so please that's important if we can get more five stars
0:34
[kel]: out there we love that please visit r website rad rad gen dot com agen
0:43
[kel]: pod e's always got the radgenpod
0:47
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
0:47
[kel]: dot com and you can contact us there we've been
0:50
[beverley_thomson]: m
0:50
[kel]: getting son email s from guests with interesting thoughts on future topics and we really
0:56
[kel]: do appreciate that and it's really assisted me getting out to talking to some other
1:00
[kel]: people out there who are experts outside of areas that i have studied and that's
1:05
[kel]: important for us to bring on guests who have experts in specific areas definitely us
1:10
[kel]: welcome back kelly we missed you last week i had to go on vacation
1:13
[beverley_thomson]: oh
1:13
[kel]: again my third time
1:16
[beverley_thomson]: wow
1:16
[kel]: the life of the life of a teacher life of an other tey with your
1:20
[kel]: summers off just so easy i wouldn't say as maybe you need those breaks more
1:25
[kel]: than others i would they're well earned well we're glad to have you back it
1:30
[kel]: was an interesting podcast last week because we were talking about the umbrella review study
1:36
[kel]: on sarah to nan and its association with depression so fortuitous guests that we have
1:42
[kel]: today in the same same realm in the same area our guest today is beverly
1:48
[kel]: thompson she's a resort sure author of mental health advocate with experts and understanding the
1:53
[kel]: adverse effects of anti depressence including anti depress and induced suicide amongst young people everley
1:59
[kel]: has worked with the british medical association the scottish government and the u k council
2:03
[kel]: for evidence based psychiatry we just got finished with her book she's the author of
2:09
[kel]: anti depressed break through examination of epidemic anti depressing harm and dependent beverly welcome to
2:16
[kel]: the radically genuine podcast
2:18
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
2:21
[kel]: she's paused a little bit
2:23
[beverley_thomson]: thank you for inviting me
2:25
[kel]: there you are
2:28
[beverley_thomson]: post
2:28
[kel]: from from the scottish highlands
2:30
[beverley_thomson]: i'm back
2:30
[kel]: yes she's
2:31
[beverley_thomson]: oh
2:31
[kel]: back
2:32
[beverley_thomson]: oh
2:32
[kel]: listen congratulations on the
2:34
[beverley_thomson]: okay
2:34
[kel]: book it's an outstanding resource but i am really interested to know how you got
2:41
[kel]: focused and interested in this particular area
2:46
[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's a really really interesting story from
2:50
[kel]: oh
2:50
[beverley_thomson]: point of view i'm probably not what you would
2:52
[kel]: oh
2:52
[beverley_thomson]: expect and my experience isn't probably what you would expect so i'm actually a graduate
2:57
[beverley_thomson]: in mark ing and languages and then i moved to the highlands of scotland and
3:04
[beverley_thomson]: couldn't really find a job so i decided to to do open university psychology and
3:10
[beverley_thomson]: went to work as a councillor
3:12
[kel]: oh
3:12
[beverley_thomson]: in schools so i worked in primary
3:14
[kel]: oh
3:14
[beverley_thomson]: and secondary schools and i think about fifteen years ago also i can't exactly remember
3:22
[beverley_thomson]: started to notice that so much was changing in terms of the way that we
3:27
[beverley_thomson]: were actually speaking about children and their behavior and i started to notice that you
3:34
[beverley_thomson]: know a lot of the problems the society problems they had and the school problems
3:39
[beverley_thomson]: that they had were actually blaming
3:41
[kel]: she
3:42
[beverley_thomson]: them
3:42
[kel]: froze
3:42
[beverley_thomson]: you know the language started to be that we were blaming the child and for
3:47
[beverley_thomson]: not being able to cope with their lives and i started to notice you know
3:51
[beverley_thomson]: the terms were being brought in like you know i think he or she has
3:55
[beverley_thomson]: a d d or i think there's something wrong with him and kind of spark
4:02
[beverley_thomson]: something in me and i i started to think to myself i don't think this
4:06
[beverley_thomson]: is right but i don't think this should be happening i don't think we should
4:10
[beverley_thomson]: be blaming children for not being able to cope which you know sometimes as very
4:16
[beverley_thomson]: very difficult circumstances that children were finding themselves in um so i started to research
4:25
[beverley_thomson]: i started to become interested in sort of the wider aspect of the state of
4:30
[beverley_thomson]: our mental health and yeah i met james davis who i'm sure you've probably interviewed
4:39
[beverley_thomson]: or know i did some work for kep when they first launched on became i
4:46
[beverley_thomson]: have to say slightly obsessed with the topic
4:49
[kel]: hm
4:50
[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's very easy isn't
4:51
[kel]: oh
4:52
[beverley_thomson]: it it's very easy to become
4:53
[kel]: right
4:54
[beverley_thomson]: sessed with the subject
4:55
[kel]: a
4:56
[beverley_thomson]: and from there
4:56
[kel]: oh
4:57
[beverley_thomson]: i've always loved writing i've always loved reading and i thought to myself i'm going
5:04
[beverley_thomson]: to write a book about this
5:06
[kel]: well we're glad that you did it's
5:08
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
5:08
[kel]: actually very easy to read and there's tons of resources so for those who are
5:13
[kel]: our parents or who are currently on anti sense or more importantly professionals out in
5:20
[kel]: the field really do recommend this as a front line resource to understand the actual
5:28
[kel]: science and what can happen when you start taking anti depressence specifically what can happen
5:35
[kel]: when you start taking it for an extended period of time you were saying you
5:38
[kel]: were talking
5:39
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
5:39
[kel]: about the course of your career
5:42
[beverley_thomson]: m
5:42
[kel]: where i've kind of witnessed the same thing with the narrative change around emotional struggles
5:48
[kel]: somewhere long the line we started talking about our emotional struggles from something that was
5:55
[kel]: a very normal aspect of kind of growth and evolution in life with practical strategies
6:02
[kel]: and you know centuries of wisdom to speaking about it as if it was some
6:07
[kel]: disease that somebody caught you know my depression
6:10
[beverley_thomson]: yep
6:10
[kel]: my a d h d and that's that you're inflicted with and potentially like this
6:15
[kel]: disease is something that you'd be inflicted with for the rest of your life how
6:19
[kel]: did we get here
6:22
[beverley_thomson]: yeah well how did we get here haven't we been gullible
6:27
[kel]: yeah
6:27
[beverley_thomson]: really when you think about it i mean a gullible society i think we are
6:33
[beverley_thomson]: definitely you know one of the things is that we have just brought into it
6:37
[beverley_thomson]: hook cline and sinker i mean how can we have been at a society where
6:43
[beverley_thomson]: we have come to rely on serious powerful psycho active drugs and not question it
6:52
[beverley_thomson]: how have we become a society where we've allowed ourselves to do that
6:57
[kel]: m i think yeah i think we had a discussion on bias at one point
7:02
[kel]: and this is purely an example of our authority bias am i right just you
7:07
[kel]: have someone who the perceived knowledge is they know more about this than you do
7:12
[kel]: so you trust them and even doctors
7:14
[beverley_thomson]: yep
7:15
[kel]: trust the farmasutocal company that spent millions of dollars to develop a quote unquote solution
7:22
[kel]: so they trust the literature that's provided to them and then they spew it out
7:26
[kel]: to their their clients when they come in and they believe it to be true
7:31
[kel]: multiple authorities
7:34
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think you know one of the things that we have to think
7:38
[beverley_thomson]: about in years gone by you know we all believe that doctor knows best and
7:43
[beverley_thomson]: that was something you know maybe in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was acceptable
7:49
[beverley_thomson]: we're consumers of these drugs we live in a society where we do three billion
7:55
[beverley_thomson]: google searches a
7:56
[kel]: oh
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[beverley_thomson]: day how can how can we not accept that we need to be better informed
8:02
[beverley_thomson]: about these powerful drugs that we take how have we allowed that to happen
8:08
[kel]: i mean it's a great question one of the things in your book that we've
8:11
[kel]: discussed quite
8:12
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
8:12
[kel]: a bit is the chemical and balanced myth and in your book at one
8:16
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
8:16
[kel]: point you you point out how psychotropic drugs work you explain how they work and
8:21
[kel]: you state
8:21
[beverley_thomson]: ah
8:22
[kel]: that they actually do not cure a non existing chemical and balance rather they create
8:26
[kel]: one which affects people mental mentally and physically many of those are unpredictable is that
8:32
[kel]: an accurate interpretation of what i read
8:37
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i mean we now
8:39
[kel]: yeah
8:39
[beverley_thomson]: know that i by the way you know what we what we've heard recently was
8:44
[beverley_thomson]: it was an excellent umbrella
8:45
[kel]: eh
8:45
[beverley_thomson]: study excellent study but this is not new i mean back to and somebody i
8:50
[beverley_thomson]: love quoting you know if we go back to i think i think it was
8:55
[beverley_thomson]: nineteen eighty eight when no i think it was nine ninety six actually that stephen
9:01
[beverley_thomson]: hayman who was the director of the n i m h y you know he
9:09
[beverley_thomson]: talked about these psychiatric
9:11
[kel]: that's
9:11
[beverley_thomson]: drugs then and you know he talked about how they are our normal new transmitter
9:17
[beverley_thomson]: activity he talked about how they quantitively and qualatively change our brain so we've known
9:23
[beverley_thomson]: this for a very very long time you know this isn't new we have known
9:28
[beverley_thomson]: it and i think i wrote a paper in twenty four teen which talked about
9:33
[beverley_thomson]: the myth of the chemical in balance and yes they don't cure our chemical and
9:39
[beverley_thomson]: balance they alter us they change us change every aspect or have potential to change
9:46
[beverley_thomson]: every single aspect of our being
9:50
[kel]: let's get into the nittygrity i think a lot of people
9:52
[beverley_thomson]: a
9:52
[kel]: who are listening to the podcast want to know some specific details about anti depressions
9:57
[kel]: i have a story i remember a friend
9:59
[beverley_thomson]: m
9:59
[kel]: of mine in college and i was in college in the late nineteen nineties um
10:04
[kel]: was prescribed an anti depressant drug and he found himself wandering in the middle of
10:10
[kel]: the city not knowing how he got there and we've also had on our podcast
10:17
[kel]: a father who an experienced acathesia induced homicidal ideation so those are some
10:26
[beverley_thomson]: yep
10:26
[kel]: of the extreme aspects of of taking a drug and impacting everybody differently but let's
10:34
[kel]: what are the dangers of anti depressince in your research what are we actually observing
10:42
[kel]: in both clinical practice and anything that we know from research trials
10:48
[beverley_thomson]: okay well first two things i have to say is that nobody knows how an
10:52
[beverley_thomson]: anti depressant will affect you so everybody can be affected in a in a unique
10:59
[beverley_thomson]: way so there is no predictable here there are no predictable
11:02
[kel]: yes
11:02
[beverley_thomson]: so there's no way anybody can say okay take this anti press and this particular
11:07
[kel]: to
11:07
[beverley_thomson]: dose and this is what will happen to you okay it's a bit of a
11:11
[beverley_thomson]: russian roulet in some ways you know
11:13
[kel]: yeah
11:14
[beverley_thomson]: some people some people manage fine and some people don't so that's that's really the
11:20
[beverley_thomson]: first thing that i have to say the other thing that i have to say
11:24
[beverley_thomson]: in terms of you know what we actually know about whether it be adverse effects
11:29
[beverley_thomson]: or long term effects really mostly from anecdotal evidence
11:34
[kel]: oh
11:36
[beverley_thomson]: that's you know that's where we're getting the true information from you know
11:40
[kel]: perfect
11:40
[beverley_thomson]: these people that have been on these drugs for thirty years who are now having
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[beverley_thomson]: horrendous heart breaking experiences um and are suffering really suffering because of these drugs we
11:54
[beverley_thomson]: don't have we need vitally need independent research and i'm sure you'll agree with me
11:59
[beverley_thomson]: there you know that's one thing that we desperately need but we really have very
12:04
[beverley_thomson]: little research in terms of what is happening to people but we know some of
12:09
[beverley_thomson]: the effects effects can be incredibly varied but they can be serious life changing life
12:16
[beverley_thomson]: altering and sometimes fatal
12:20
[kel]: i think what's most concerning to me is how
12:24
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
12:24
[kel]: physicians communicate them to patients and families as if they're rather benign um there's
12:31
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
12:31
[kel]: there's no we don't talk about dependents and they think they speak with their clients
12:37
[kel]: mostly in terms of the potential benefits and really minimize any potential risk in fact
12:44
[kel]: almost speaking as if those risks are quite rare and quite mild
12:50
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
12:51
[kel]: and
12:52
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
12:52
[kel]: beverley i'm assuming that the reason they speak about the drugs in this way is
12:56
[kel]: because that's what's communicated to them through pharmasutical marketers is that your impression as well
13:05
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely and i think even though most doctors are beginning to realize that a
13:10
[beverley_thomson]: lot of the the a lot of the adverse effects that patients come back to
13:16
[beverley_thomson]: them tell them about because of the drugs that they still don't inform patients as
13:23
[beverley_thomson]: they should about the adverse effects shall i read the john reed studying twenty team
13:29
[beverley_thomson]: because that might be yea so there was a twenty eight ten study which i
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[beverley_thomson]: have in my book and asking people directly reveals far higher rates of adverse respond
13:41
[beverley_thomson]: sister antiantipressence than previously understood especially in the emotional psychological and in personal domains so
13:51
[beverley_thomson]: this on nine survey looked at one thousand and four hundred and thirty one people
13:56
[beverley_thomson]: in thirty eight countries so when when you listen to these statistics i mean this
14:02
[beverley_thomson]: just really really tells you about how serious some of these effects are so feeling
14:10
[beverley_thomson]: emotionally numb seventy point six per cent feeling foggy or detached seventy percent feeling not
14:18
[beverley_thomson]: like myself sixty six per cent sexual difficulties sixty six per cent drowsy sixty two
14:27
[beverley_thomson]: percent reduction in positive feelings sixty point four per cent you know distorted dreams fifty
14:36
[beverley_thomson]: nine percent umsuicideality fifty point three percent half the people who in the in this
14:44
[beverley_thomson]: survey said that they had some form of suicideality i mean this is crazy isn't
14:51
[beverley_thomson]: it
14:52
[kel]: it is crazy and i mean i've mentioned this i actually had gone to a
14:56
[kel]: doctor young when i was young and i was
14:58
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
14:59
[kel]: i was diagnosed within fifteen minutes
15:02
[beverley_thomson]: oh
15:02
[kel]: and i remember now we were asking well are there my mom was with me
15:07
[kel]: and she asked is this something that it will have to be on for the
15:11
[kel]: rest of his life is it okay he was it was very dismissive verybody's doing
15:16
[kel]: it's okay it's kind of like you
15:18
[beverley_thomson]: oh
15:18
[kel]: know it'll
15:19
[beverley_thomson]: oh
15:19
[kel]: be fine there were no we were not given any type of chance to just
15:24
[kel]: think
15:24
[beverley_thomson]: oh
15:25
[kel]: about it or go home take a month or two and you know if things
15:29
[kel]: don't get better we were just told this is your solution here you go i
15:33
[kel]: was fortunate
15:34
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
15:34
[kel]: to not you know to not stay on it i was on for a very
15:38
[kel]: short period of time but in that short period of time i can tell you
15:41
[kel]: i experienced several of what you just said
15:45
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely that is you know that is so typical
15:49
[kel]: oh
15:50
[beverley_thomson]: because it's not until things start to go wrong that people start to question why
15:59
[beverley_thomson]: do we wait until it's too late and things start to go wrong and we
16:04
[beverley_thomson]: start to have these adverse effects that we start to question the drugs
16:08
[kel]: yeah
16:08
[beverley_thomson]: should we be questioning them from the beginning before
16:12
[kel]: there's no doubt
16:13
[beverley_thomson]: we even take them
16:14
[kel]: yeah in the united states here and and we're we're working with parents who have
16:21
[kel]: kids who are struggling with depression anxiety and self injury or suicidal thoughts and one
16:27
[kel]: of the feedback that we're getting from parents is that
16:31
[beverley_thomson]: oh
16:31
[kel]: they feel almost guilted into the prescription from prescribers as if
16:37
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
16:37
[kel]: it is there front line treatment and the most effective treatment for developing teen agers
16:44
[kel]: and and young adults universally parents are kind of saying they make us feel like
16:51
[kel]: we're a bad parent if we do not follow medical advice but yet you're
16:57
[beverley_thomson]: yep
16:57
[kel]: you have a chapter special chapter on this for young people and it is so
17:02
[kel]: clear and i've done my obsessive research as well that we don't have really any
17:07
[kel]: data that suggests that these psychiatric drugs these s s r is have any positive
17:14
[kel]: impact and almost overwhelming evidence that suggests that they can and will create harm
17:24
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely absolutely and i think the thing that we have to think about especially with
17:31
[beverley_thomson]: child now with children is it's moral issue isn't it we have already said that
17:39
[beverley_thomson]: these these drugs change your brain change the structure of your brain who has the
17:47
[beverley_thomson]: right to do that to their child who has the right to change their child's
17:53
[beverley_thomson]: brain
17:56
[kel]: yeah yeah i don't i don't understand that i guess i agree with with roger
18:05
[kel]: i think based off of the experience that i had it's almost as if a
18:08
[kel]: parent may not be able have enough stand up for themselves at the very moment
18:14
[kel]: that they are told this is the only solution and i think that
18:17
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
18:18
[kel]: yeah go ahead
18:18
[beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry and i was if you think about
18:22
[kel]: i
18:22
[beverley_thomson]: it from
18:22
[kel]: don't
18:22
[beverley_thomson]: from a cultural perspective they've already parents have already brought into this idea that you
18:29
[beverley_thomson]: know here's a drug and the drug will fix you so
18:32
[kel]: oh
18:32
[beverley_thomson]: it's the first thing that they're going to do they haven't questioned it for themselves
18:36
[beverley_thomson]: so why are they going to question it for
18:38
[kel]: m
18:38
[beverley_thomson]: their child
18:39
[kel]: so beverly one of the the areas and i think we're touching on the fact
18:43
[kel]: that a lot of parents just don't understand right they trust their doctors in terms
18:47
[kel]: of the research that you've done in some of the resource you provided um in
18:50
[kel]: the back of your book what
18:51
[beverley_thomson]: yes
18:52
[kel]: are what do you feel is the most appropriate place to send a parent who
18:56
[kel]: at this point might be considering or it's maybe being forced upon them where they
19:02
[kel]: can go and really just get a nonjudgemental view of what others are seeing out
19:08
[kel]: there that they can read themselves
19:11
[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's difficult isn't
19:12
[kel]: yes
19:12
[beverley_thomson]: it
19:12
[kel]: it is
19:13
[beverley_thomson]: it's really difficult because we have to one of the things that we have to
19:18
[beverley_thomson]: take
19:18
[kel]: oh
19:19
[beverley_thomson]: into account is for you it's even more difficult because you have farmer advertising on
19:25
[beverley_thomson]: your t v screen
19:26
[kel]: m
19:27
[beverley_thomson]: every how
19:28
[kel]: m
19:28
[beverley_thomson]: many seconds of the day but you know it's really hard to find information that
19:35
[beverley_thomson]: a reliable information you can trust without being biassed because everyone who they will meet
19:42
[beverley_thomson]: whether it being an educational environment whether it be you know their friends whether well
19:47
[beverley_thomson]: have already brought into this notion so you know what roger and i are trying
19:52
[beverley_thomson]: to do and we're trying to change this concept were trying to change but this
19:56
[beverley_thomson]: is not easy this is not easy and and i hope that my book which
20:02
[beverley_thomson]: i did try to write an accessible way and i didn't try i didn't use
20:07
[beverley_thomson]: medical language or academic language so i really it will be you know a starting
20:13
[beverley_thomson]: point and
20:14
[kel]: yeah
20:14
[beverley_thomson]: other people will write similar books to
20:16
[kel]: hm
20:17
[beverley_thomson]: that that can really help people yeah i'm hoping that education will be a place
20:23
[beverley_thomson]: where we really start to see see this changing but you know i'm in the
20:28
[beverley_thomson]: highlands of scotland and i think it's very different where you are you know we're
20:33
[beverley_thomson]: bombarded with messages aren't we on social media in the media about our mental health
20:39
[beverley_thomson]: about deserving parity with our physical health and you have a right to take a
20:44
[beverley_thomson]: drug you want to
20:46
[kel]: yeah
20:46
[beverley_thomson]: how we're going to change it
20:48
[kel]: that's
20:48
[beverley_thomson]: we're going to try i'm going to try
20:50
[kel]: it
20:50
[beverley_thomson]: but
20:51
[kel]: and getting conversations like this out is one step but you're right there's an enormous
20:57
[kel]: amount of advertising especially for all these new um absolutions where someone could immediately go
21:03
[kel]: and answer a few questions and get access to an anti depressing medication through the
21:09
[kel]: mail is
21:10
[beverley_thomson]: m
21:10
[kel]: to me i interpreted as if the medical community and a lot of doctors are
21:14
[kel]: becoming more aware of the long term effects and the side effects and the harm
21:19
[kel]: it's being done that one way to get around that is to remove the doctors
21:24
[kel]: from the process and just go direct to consumer which is
21:28
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
21:28
[kel]: to me i'm going to be a whole another level of aware is that needs
21:32
[kel]: to get out there
21:32
[beverley_thomson]: yeah i think i think one of the problems in terms of children that i
21:37
[beverley_thomson]: really really i'm so worried about is you know a lot of children are now
21:42
[beverley_thomson]: put on these drugs at such a young age and when they become adults they're
21:48
[beverley_thomson]: already dependent on these drugs and if they don't have the knowledge about these drugs
21:54
[beverley_thomson]: and the information that they shouldn't stop these drugs suddenly or you know they need
22:00
[beverley_thomson]: to be informed about the harms that they can do we are seeing and i
22:04
[beverley_thomson]: haven't the you now the evidence of it we're seeing the suicide rates for example
22:09
[beverley_thomson]: in university is rocket and that's because the kids on these drugs o move away
22:16
[beverley_thomson]: from the security of their parents the usual prescribe the they go away to university
22:22
[beverley_thomson]: they go i don't need this drug they stopped taking it
22:27
[kel]: yeah
22:28
[beverley_thomson]: this is dangerous
22:28
[kel]: yea this is a good direction to get into because we are seeing these increasing
22:33
[kel]: rates of suicide events and many people are attributing that to a need for mental
22:41
[kel]: health intervention which
22:42
[beverley_thomson]: oh
22:43
[kel]: is more psychometric drugs and there they're unknowingly um you know making comments that you
22:51
[kel]: know when one stops their drug it is as there is evidence that that mental
22:56
[kel]: health condition is returning that depression is returning what do we expect to happen if
23:00
[kel]: somebody abruptly stops taking psychiatric gs that they were prescribed
23:06
[beverley_thomson]: yeah no one should ever abruptly stop taking psychiatric drugs unless it's on the advice
23:13
[beverley_thomson]: of a g p and there is specific reason for it but so if we
23:18
[beverley_thomson]: look at what happened when we take these drugs so we have a normal normal
23:24
[beverley_thomson]: balance state without the drug as soon as we start to take the drug
23:31
[beverley_thomson]: as we've said these drugs act on our brain chemistry and our normal state is
23:37
[beverley_thomson]: becomes different so eventually if we take this drug to a period of time we
23:42
[beverley_thomson]: achieve a new balance state okay might not be a great balance state it might
23:47
[beverley_thomson]: be one with adverse effects it might be we achieve a new balance state so
23:52
[beverley_thomson]: as soon as you reduce or stop taking these drugs especially if you do it
23:57
[beverley_thomson]: abruptly this balance tate becomes very unbalanced and that can be psychologically and it can
24:07
[beverley_thomson]: be physiologically as well
24:08
[kel]: is
24:09
[beverley_thomson]: so
24:09
[kel]: i
24:10
[beverley_thomson]: this is why we have such increasing cases of acesier because people are stopping these
24:17
[beverley_thomson]: drugs so suddenly and becoming so unbalanced and this is really really incredibly anjerous and
24:25
[beverley_thomson]: it's something that i think acesier is the one thing that in particular we need
24:29
[beverley_thomson]: more people to understand
24:31
[kel]: i was going to ask you can you discuss a little it because in your
24:33
[kel]: book you have you have a pretty big section of it and then you also
24:36
[kel]: describe the there are four types can you tell us a little bit about that
24:41
[beverley_thomson]: yeah so acts is a neurological drug induced condition and it's not just antprescente there
24:48
[beverley_thomson]: are other drugs that can induce this state so i think i describe it and
24:55
[beverley_thomson]: a lot of people have said to me we jokingly say sometimes i'm losing my
25:00
[beverley_thomson]: mind these people literally lose their mind and they lose control of their mind so
25:09
[beverley_thomson]: they have constant intrusive thoughts it's really interesting and really quite heartbreaking that most of
25:18
[beverley_thomson]: these thoughts that these people have really funny though isn't it they don't have happy
25:23
[beverley_thomson]: thoughts they don't go and line the beach to have it's lying on the beach
25:26
[beverley_thomson]: somewhere or you know going to their favorite restaurant or they have thoughts of most
25:36
[beverley_thomson]: two common ones are there have sorts of killing themselves they have thoughts of killing
25:41
[beverley_thomson]: someone else
25:43
[kel]: m
25:45
[beverley_thomson]: and those acts those are the two most constant and people
25:51
[kel]: yeah
25:51
[beverley_thomson]: end up killing themselves when they have acathesia there are two different ways so the
25:58
[beverley_thomson]: first is they have such such incredibly awful symptoms that be restless restlessness or agitation
26:10
[beverley_thomson]: or pain or that they literally can't stand them any more and they choose to
26:15
[beverley_thomson]: kill themselves and the second one is it's not so much that they choose to
26:21
[beverley_thomson]: kill themselves actually fight to stay alive but these intrusive voices these intrusive voices get
26:28
[beverley_thomson]: to the point where they actually give in the voice is that i to the
26:33
[beverley_thomson]: voice that is telling them to kill themselves
26:38
[kel]: and i think the challenge especially with young people is there not always the most
26:41
[kel]: disciplined of people so it's very easy to miss a dose or if you're at
26:46
[kel]: university and you start you know eating or drinking alcohol or you have some sleep
26:52
[kel]: disruption there's we see then that those severe adverse consequences can occur and younger people
27:00
[kel]: like high school students and i hear this quite frequently if they if they miss
27:04
[kel]: a dose or you know they've been they've been ill or sick and they stopped
27:09
[kel]: taking it for a couple of days reaction to those drugs it can be so
27:14
[kel]: severe that
27:16
[beverley_thomson]: yep
27:17
[kel]: their parents actually believe that that is evidence of a chemical and balance that requires
27:23
[kel]: the drug for for life and they do not understand that the drug self or
27:30
[kel]: the withdrawal
27:30
[beverley_thomson]: as caused
27:30
[kel]: effect of
27:31
[beverley_thomson]: it
27:31
[kel]: that drug creates those exact symptoms i wanted to bring up
27:35
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
27:36
[kel]: the tad's study because it is front line care here in the united states that
27:40
[kel]: when a teenager is experiencing suicidal idiation hand that could just be thoughts or it
27:45
[kel]: could be self injury and they are admitted into a psychiatric hospital or they're in
27:50
[kel]: some form of out patient treatment it is believed that in anti depression should be
27:57
[kel]: a front line treatment for such a condition what does the science and what does
28:00
[kel]: our research say you talked about the tad's study
28:04
[beverley_thomson]: oh i can't even this is really you got cut me off guard here i
28:08
[beverley_thomson]: should i should actually know this but i think that the thing that we can
28:12
[beverley_thomson]: take from it is that real life patients as opposed to the research participants the
28:22
[beverley_thomson]: adverse effects were much more frequent much more serious and much more long lasting than
28:28
[beverley_thomson]: they were in the research
28:31
[kel]: yeah i do
28:32
[beverley_thomson]: patients
28:32
[kel]: i have some data on this i just pulled it up to so you go
28:35
[kel]: ahead watch twenty two percent of
28:36
[beverley_thomson]: hm
28:37
[kel]: adolescence on an s s or i had a suicide event compared to six point
28:41
[kel]: seven percent
28:42
[beverley_thomson]: oh
28:42
[kel]: of those not taking drug
28:45
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
28:46
[kel]: we also know
28:46
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
28:46
[kel]: in short term farm clinical trials um teams on the drugs were more than twice
28:52
[kel]: as likely to become suicidal
28:54
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
28:54
[kel]: compared to placebo so here we are
28:57
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
28:59
[kel]: we actually see in clinical practice that doctors are prescribing a drug that's going to
29:03
[kel]: increase suicideality and at this point isn't it can we just say that evidence based
29:09
[kel]: mental health care is just a yeah
29:12
[beverley_thomson]: it's an absolute miss an absolute miss and you know everyone i say everyone and
29:18
[beverley_thomson]: that's a big statement but just about everyone who ends up in some kind of
29:22
[beverley_thomson]: clinic setting for their mental health will be prescribed more drugs
29:28
[kel]: oh
29:28
[beverley_thomson]: it goes without saying there are never solutions that don't involve
29:32
[kel]: yes
29:32
[beverley_thomson]: drugs or very rarely solutions that don't involve drugs
29:36
[kel]: oh
29:37
[beverley_thomson]: and that's so sad isn't it
29:39
[kel]: it's very sad in your opinion should children are adolescence um be prescribed anti to
29:43
[kel]: presence in any circumstances i mean we do have to shiat the conversation to any
29:47
[kel]: perceived benefits but in your opinion is there any situation where young people should be
29:53
[kel]: taking and into presence
29:55
[beverley_thomson]: well i can i think i can only speak about that from my my personal
30:00
[beverley_thomson]: view as a mother would i give my child anti presence never never
30:10
[kel]: yeah
30:10
[beverley_thomson]: no and i suppose you know you can think about it from the perspective that
30:16
[beverley_thomson]: you know i know a lot more about these drugs than most people and i've
30:19
[beverley_thomson]: heard a lot more know experiences of young people who taken these drugs but would
30:24
[beverley_thomson]: i give my child antitepressance never
30:29
[kel]: beverly i feel obligated to ask had you not done this research and written this
30:33
[kel]: book and grew interested in the subject and so and your child was struggling would
30:39
[kel]: your approach have been the same or do you feel like you're just more aware
30:42
[kel]: and more knowledgeable now
30:45
[beverley_thomson]: yes i think i don't
30:49
[kel]: eh
30:49
[beverley_thomson]: think i would have ever medicated my child to be honest
30:51
[kel]: okay
30:53
[beverley_thomson]: i have always been my personal approach as i have always taught my child speak
31:00
[beverley_thomson]: talk about what's going wrong to make help him understand that life changes very quickly
31:07
[beverley_thomson]: especially for young people and what is happening you know this week might have changed
31:13
[beverley_thomson]: in a month's time and normally things move very quick so i don't think i
31:18
[beverley_thomson]: would have to be honest
31:19
[kel]: okay joanna moncreefe spoke about the perceived benefits of anti depressant use and she blogged
31:28
[kel]: about it i think the primary one is is optimism or hope so it's the
31:35
[kel]: idea that taking a drug in itself if you are really suffering can provide that
31:42
[kel]: placebo response and i think the second one that she generally speaks about is the
31:48
[kel]: emotional numbing or blunting of the drug can for a small percentage of people be
31:55
[kel]: interpreted as something that is actually believing or positive and so i just imagine that
32:03
[kel]: there are some people who are in such intense negative pain some form of emotional
32:09
[kel]: blunting might be interpreted as helpful
32:14
[beverley_thomson]: hm
32:15
[kel]: but but then again when we look at the adverse consequences the question is always
32:18
[kel]: for how long because the brain is going to eventually adapt as you well said
32:22
[kel]: and then what are the you know the potential long term effects of such a
32:27
[kel]: decision
32:28
[beverley_thomson]: yeah well first of all you know i never say i never said that people
32:34
[beverley_thomson]: shouldn't take these drugs it's everyone's right to take these drugs if they choose to
32:38
[beverley_thomson]: that is entirely up to them but what i do so say is everybody should
32:43
[beverley_thomson]: be informed about these drugs slightly different okay let's address one one well we'll address
32:51
[beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect first you know i suppose the question is you know is is
32:56
[beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect is that justification for taking powerful psycho active drugs my opinion probably
33:04
[beverley_thomson]: not um these powerful drugs also if you think about it an no
33:09
[kel]: don't
33:10
[beverley_thomson]: one knows how long it takes for somebody to become dependent on these drugs so
33:15
[beverley_thomson]: if you choose to take these because as have a numbing effect and might help
33:21
[beverley_thomson]: you in a few months you know over a few months or again is it
33:27
[beverley_thomson]: worth the risk i don't think it is personally to be honest you know i
33:32
[beverley_thomson]: had an interesting conversation with nick for tino recently about this and you know that
33:37
[beverley_thomson]: lots of other things that we can do to help ourselves through very difficult times
33:44
[kel]: a
33:44
[beverley_thomson]: and to me taking pychotropic psycho active powerful drugs it's not the answer
33:52
[kel]: so you're a huge proponent of people giving themselves a lot of time to heal
33:57
[kel]: naturally and for that to happen they would need to alter some of their life
34:01
[kel]: activities as a char in this kind of system that we have at least in
34:07
[kel]: the u s a lot of a lot of students over the course of years
34:10
[kel]: i've seen go through they've gotten their diagnoses they've gone on medication parents have then
34:15
[kel]: um when the medication either didn't work or they started to see those kind of
34:18
[kel]: side effects then they went into another medication and so on and i feel like
34:23
[kel]: just i was when i was reading your book i'm like you know if you
34:26
[kel]: allow people time to heal they're going to have to make some changes in their
34:30
[kel]: lives and then young kids and students high school student in particular they don't have
34:35
[kel]: the capability to make changes because the system doesn't allow to make any changes
34:38
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
34:39
[kel]: so they struggle
34:40
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
34:40
[kel]: and have to enter that same environment day after day and it's extremely difficult for
34:45
[kel]: them to make any real change that could actually help them mentally what do you
34:49
[kel]: say o those parents whose those students who believe they've exhausted the weight and and
34:55
[kel]: then they're like this is the only thing we can do is turn to medication
34:59
[beverley_thomson]: well first of all i'm not a psychologist so you know i can't give advice
35:03
[beverley_thomson]: as to what what
35:04
[kel]: yeah
35:04
[beverley_thomson]: i personally think that that should they should do but you know e's study in
35:08
[beverley_thomson]: my
35:08
[kel]: and
35:08
[beverley_thomson]: book i think it was two thousand six brand verse to that looked at the
35:13
[beverley_thomson]: fact that you know eighty five per cent of people recover who have a depressive
35:18
[beverley_thomson]: episode recover within one year without any treatment whatsoever so i think for children yes
35:26
[beverley_thomson]: it is more difficult because the social circumstances that they find themselves are tough it's
35:32
[beverley_thomson]: tough for kids nowadays isn't it
35:33
[kel]: oh absolutely
35:34
[beverley_thomson]: it's not easy it's tough you know there is no getting away from it but
35:38
[beverley_thomson]: it was like we were talking about before unless the system changes then how are
35:44
[beverley_thomson]: we going to help these kids
35:46
[kel]: haven't we altered our understanding of what depression is if you look historically
35:52
[beverley_thomson]: m
35:53
[kel]: depression as as a really severe impairing condition was quite rare and in actuality almost
36:02
[kel]: everybody is going to go through something in their lifetime in some episode but now
36:09
[kel]: we're describing the normal ranges of adversity as a met al illness and really it's
36:16
[kel]: kind
36:16
[beverley_thomson]: yep
36:16
[kel]: of industry driven and it's it's media driven hasn't that altered the way that we
36:22
[kel]: we think about our own struggles over the normal course of a lifetime
36:28
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely well we only have to listen to children and young people when they talk
36:32
[beverley_thomson]: on t v and the language that they now use and if you listen to
36:37
[beverley_thomson]: children talking on t v how often do they use the word anxiety i'm anxious
36:43
[beverley_thomson]: how often do they use the word i think i'm depressed i think i had
36:47
[beverley_thomson]: a panic
36:48
[kel]: this
36:49
[beverley_thomson]: i think this has just become part of their life that they accept is going
36:54
[beverley_thomson]: to happen
36:55
[kel]: yes
36:55
[beverley_thomson]: to them at be honest you know how are we going to change that because
37:01
[beverley_thomson]: we're fighting so many were fighting the media that's for sure absolutely fighting the media
37:07
[beverley_thomson]: and this is a political issue isn't it you know kids live with homelessness they
37:12
[beverley_thomson]: live with poverty they live with parents who are unemployed parents who take drugs and
37:18
[beverley_thomson]: it's hard for them it's very good telling a child who is to be resilient
37:22
[beverley_thomson]: but in lots of circumstances
37:25
[kel]: yeah
37:26
[beverley_thomson]: i used to teach program called resilient kids and i remember i was in a
37:31
[beverley_thomson]: class room with you know i think there was eight seven eight year old and
37:36
[beverley_thomson]: i was talking about resilience and how they needed to be resilient and how they
37:41
[beverley_thomson]: and then i was driving home after i taught this class and i started to
37:46
[beverley_thomson]: cry and i thought to myself i have just
37:50
[kel]: yes
37:51
[beverley_thomson]: been telling a child who i know
37:53
[kel]: a
37:53
[beverley_thomson]: is going home who i know there is heroine in the house who i know
37:58
[beverley_thomson]: has no food who i know won't get breakfast tomorrow before they come i have
38:03
[beverley_thomson]: just been telling her to be resilient
38:05
[kel]: m m
38:07
[beverley_thomson]: how can i do that
38:08
[kel]: m
38:09
[beverley_thomson]: how do
38:09
[kel]: m
38:10
[beverley_thomson]: i have the right to do that so these are these are these are political
38:14
[beverley_thomson]: issues and you know it's great for you know
38:17
[kel]: oh
38:17
[beverley_thomson]: the politicians to say oh well it's their mental health but actually it's not it's
38:23
[beverley_thomson]: all the cycle things that they should be addressing and fixing to make us happier
38:29
[kel]: beverly how many children did you raise
38:33
[beverley_thomson]: one
38:33
[kel]: you have one so tell me and you taught this class also how do you
38:37
[kel]: raise a
38:37
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
38:37
[kel]: resilient child yeah
38:44
[beverley_thomson]: well i think i was very lucky in that i had a child who is
38:47
[beverley_thomson]: very sporty
38:48
[kel]: hm
38:49
[beverley_thomson]: it was quite a talented socker player and he was very active and he was
38:55
[beverley_thomson]: very fit and he loved being out doors and he hated reading by the way
39:00
[beverley_thomson]: but he loved
39:00
[kel]: oh
39:00
[beverley_thomson]: kicking a football
39:01
[kel]: oh
39:01
[beverley_thomson]: round um and i think i was just fortunate that i didn't have a child
39:07
[beverley_thomson]: who really ever had any issues with friendship or with i was lucky i was
39:15
[beverley_thomson]: fortunate i really was and this isn't the norm this really isn't the norm
39:20
[kel]: m i think when you speak about that child who has to go home into
39:25
[kel]: an environment maybe it's a broken home or there's you know there's drug addiction or
39:29
[kel]: there's violence it's the community supports it's that school system it's people who take an
39:35
[kel]: interest in that person who show that that child some love and support and encouragement
39:41
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
39:42
[kel]: and when we start labeling kids like that
39:45
[beverley_thomson]: ah
39:46
[kel]: as a d h d or that they have depression then we start medicalizing and
39:52
[kel]: drugging normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions and that's really the disappointing
39:58
[beverley_thomson]: yep
39:58
[kel]: thing that's kind of evolved in our society because if we're going to be if
40:01
[kel]: we're gonna be better as a community we're gonna be better as health care professionals
40:05
[kel]: that we have to understand what is the normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions
40:10
[kel]: and not medicalize those responses but yet know how to support them nurture them and
40:16
[kel]: then ultimately
40:17
[beverley_thomson]: s
40:17
[kel]: then build those those skills in resilience when they get of an age where they
40:22
[kel]: have more independence
40:26
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely i totally agree but you know and i'm as much as we can we
40:32
[beverley_thomson]: need to sport children and some of the programs that now put into schools a
40:36
[beverley_thomson]: fantastic programs but he don't work for every child they really don't work for every
40:42
[beverley_thomson]: child and we need a more personalized approach for children who really are going through
40:46
[beverley_thomson]: difficulties
40:48
[kel]: we have a different medical system here in the united states the u k from
40:54
[kel]: what i understand is more of a universal health care system so the government is
40:58
[kel]: much more involved in the treatment of their citizens you have worked with the scottish
41:07
[kel]: government i think you've also consulted and worked with the u k council for evidence
41:13
[kel]: based psychiatry the british medical association i am fascinating ly curious about how medical professionals
41:22
[kel]: and government
41:22
[beverley_thomson]: m
41:23
[kel]: view psychiatric drugs in your region
41:29
[beverley_thomson]: oh in my region well in scotland we have the highest antipressent prescribing rates in
41:34
[beverley_thomson]: the u k i was on a news and culture programme recently because the media
41:39
[beverley_thomson]: here are so concerned about the over prescribing of young people over prescribing avanti presence
41:48
[beverley_thomson]: to young people in scotland and this as you just said a political decision so
41:55
[beverley_thomson]: we started a petition in scotland i think it was in two thousand and seventeen
41:59
[beverley_thomson]: and we asked the scottish government i think it's the first one that's ever been
42:04
[beverley_thomson]: done at we asked the scottish government to look at how they can help people
42:09
[beverley_thomson]: who have been harmed by dependent on scribe medication i sat on a strategic strategy
42:18
[beverley_thomson]: group for gave lots of my time and did so much work and guess what
42:24
[beverley_thomson]: happened sing
42:27
[kel]: h m
42:29
[beverley_thomson]: nothing absolutely nothing
42:32
[kel]: why do you think that is
42:33
[beverley_thomson]: and we because it suits doesn't it the status cost suits isn't it easier to
42:43
[beverley_thomson]: give a prescription than to try and invest in you know the ways that we
42:48
[beverley_thomson]: can actually help young people nowadays it's just easier still to let people believe that
42:54
[beverley_thomson]: it's their fault there's something wrong with them it's their brain that's broken and it's
42:59
[beverley_thomson]: not the system
43:01
[kel]: feel like the campaign we need is just to empower parents to say the word
43:06
[kel]: no you go to a doctor
43:08
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely
43:09
[kel]: and a doctor is starting to say these things the parents first response has to
43:13
[kel]: be no there has to be something else well we've talked about this in our
43:17
[kel]: podcast i don't know if you're aware of this beverley in he united states are
43:21
[kel]: hospital systems which pretty much own all our primary care doctors and the primary care
43:28
[kel]: facilities in our regions they are man dating administration of screening measures and they usually
43:35
[kel]: very poorly constructed screening measures like the p h q nine
43:39
[beverley_thomson]: oh
43:39
[kel]: and so each
43:39
[beverley_thomson]: oh
43:39
[kel]: die there is man dated to provide this to children adolescence and even adults as
43:45
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
43:45
[kel]: a screening measure
43:46
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
43:46
[kel]: which is highly sensitive and it's going to over diagnose most people
43:50
[beverley_thomson]: oh
43:50
[kel]: with clinical depression and that then opens the pathway to a prescription drug so i
43:59
[kel]: know on social medium myself i've outspoken resist taking these screening measures parents do not
44:05
[kel]: let your kids take these screening measures
44:07
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
44:08
[kel]: my goodness trust yourself you're going
44:09
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
44:10
[kel]: to know if your kid is really really struggling and then you have to trust
44:14
[kel]: your own instinct about what you're your would need hm
44:20
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely but you know and if we could educate parents about what these drugs
44:26
[beverley_thomson]: actually do and they knew about the harms that they could cause and they would
44:31
[beverley_thomson]: they would be they would be thinking twice about giving children these drugs it's not
44:38
[beverley_thomson]: you know life's hard for parents and parents too isn't it it's not easy but
44:43
[beverley_thomson]: drugging children is not the answer
44:46
[kel]: yeah so great
44:47
[beverley_thomson]: and these re we're starting to actually introduce screening programs as well in some parts
44:52
[beverley_thomson]: of the u k and you know we're told to
44:55
[kel]: oh
44:56
[beverley_thomson]: problem means that i think a lot of the time screening is done really subconsciously
45:00
[beverley_thomson]: especially by prescribers you know they don't actually get the screen out you know they
45:05
[beverley_thomson]: don't actually get the gad seven or the phkding out and they do ask you
45:09
[beverley_thomson]: specific questions but their programme to do it
45:13
[kel]: there's no doubt
45:13
[beverley_thomson]: a programme did
45:15
[kel]: so there's a great quote that begins one of the chapters and it ends with
45:19
[kel]: this everybody who made the commercial because it was talking you were talking about big
45:23
[kel]: farm and commercials and advertisements has a financial interest in your future ehavior and that
45:28
[kel]: is so
45:28
[beverley_thomson]: yep
45:28
[kel]: telling and i wish more people would understand that part of this narrative that we've
45:33
[kel]: now seen for the last thirty forty years it's funny because our government officials here
45:37
[kel]: are constantly high lighting things like it's national mental health month you know we have
45:42
[kel]: a mental health crisis but the one thing that they could probably do right now
45:45
[kel]: to improve everyone's mental health is to put a ban on advertising of these of
45:50
[kel]: these would you grue hat
45:52
[beverley_thomson]: yeah i absolutely you know taking medic these drugs and medication this medication isn't keeping
46:00
[beverley_thomson]: us healthy it's not keeping us healthy it's making our society sicker and i think
46:06
[beverley_thomson]: you know
46:06
[kel]: a
46:07
[beverley_thomson]: i don't know whether you're spoken to m i had brain freezing
46:13
[kel]: h
46:13
[beverley_thomson]: um
46:14
[kel]: m
46:14
[beverley_thomson]: and you know he's spoken for a long time by the fact that you know
46:20
[beverley_thomson]: mental health messages are moving is sicker they really are making a sicker as a
46:26
[beverley_thomson]: society we need to change the narrative don't we
46:31
[kel]: absolutely we certainly do and i'd like to come up with some you know helpful
46:36
[kel]: solutions for that for that next step one of the things that's really important we
46:41
[kel]: talk about messaging around to health is the more that you are focused and attentive
46:48
[kel]: on your internal experience and the judgment of that everything that i understand about emotion
46:57
[kel]: regulation the judgment the invalidation and the distortion of our internal experience creates much more
47:05
[kel]: distress so although we have all these decreased stigma campaigns and you must focus on
47:11
[kel]: your mental health everything i know about creating a life worth living and dealing with
47:16
[kel]: the complex emotions that we have is to direct our attention outward away from ourselves
47:21
[kel]: into our world you spoke about your son and with football and athletics and connection
47:27
[kel]: with nature that's with the relationships that we nurture in our health it's getting back
47:33
[kel]: to developing a purpose in our lives the more you focus on yourself the more
47:38
[kel]: miserable you're going to be
47:42
[beverley_thomson]: yeah you talked about there you know and i don't know you talk about a
47:44
[beverley_thomson]: lot about you having a life worth living and having a these drugs
47:50
[kel]: no
47:50
[beverley_thomson]: aren't giving most people who take them a life worth living on for many people
47:57
[beverley_thomson]: they're just the start many problems and i talked a lot but my book about
48:02
[beverley_thomson]: now medically on explained symptoms and people then being given for the diagnoses and then
48:06
[beverley_thomson]: people being drugged further just just five minutes in a prescriber's office can be the
48:13
[beverley_thomson]: start as a lifelong psychiatric patient five minutes for something that is you know you
48:21
[beverley_thomson]: lost your job girl friend left you oh yes can be the start of a
48:28
[beverley_thomson]: journey as a lifelong psychiatric patient this is sad i is really sad
48:37
[kel]: yeah unfortunately these drugs are being more widely prescribed to conditions that they weren't even
48:43
[kel]: initially evaluated for chronic pain
48:46
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
48:47
[kel]: is an example anarexia where we know the food is the actual medicine being eating
48:54
[kel]: there's drugs being provided for the elderly in homes or just for being lonely now
49:01
[kel]: they're putting people lawn on prescription drug
49:05
[beverley_thomson]: loneliness as you know an epidemic
49:07
[kel]: yes
49:07
[beverley_thomson]: it really is an epidemic and you know it's so easy to drug especially the
49:13
[beverley_thomson]: elderly when it comes to when when they are only on
49:17
[kel]: it's
49:17
[beverley_thomson]: it's
49:17
[kel]: to
49:17
[beverley_thomson]: so sad really isn't it that we aren't giving the elder leader the passion and
49:22
[beverley_thomson]: the compassion and the what they deserve instead we're drugging them drugging them
49:31
[kel]: i realize the simple thing you can do
49:32
[beverley_thomson]: s
49:33
[kel]: for anyone who's who's older is just sit down with them and have a conversation
49:38
[kel]: i could sit down with my grandfather who's now going to be turning ninety four
49:41
[kel]: years old and he could talk talk and talk and that would make his day
49:45
[beverley_thomson]: hm
49:45
[kel]: is to just tell you the stories and the wisdom that he accumulated through all
49:49
[kel]: those years nd you know you get a lot out of it yourself to just
49:53
[kel]: even betting up old photographs and i tell you the same
49:56
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
49:56
[kel]: story over and over again like my mom loves doing that you know that's that's
50:01
[beverley_thomson]: it's a it's a system again isn't it you know it's it's much cheaper and
50:06
[beverley_thomson]: cost effective to give somebody a cheap generic drug it is to employ people
50:14
[kel]: m
50:15
[beverley_thomson]: to walk
50:15
[kel]: m
50:15
[beverley_thomson]: with these people it's much too per and easier
50:19
[kel]: yeah it's almost like if we got visited by highly evolved beings from another planet
50:26
[kel]: one of the things that they would be kind of critical of our culture is
50:31
[kel]: how the elderly are treated the ones with the most amount of wisdom seem to
50:39
[kel]: have the least value and in our society it really is a western culture is
50:44
[kel]: really a society and culture for young people you know it's about it's about fame
50:50
[kel]: and it's about achievement and it's about you know living your best life and there's
50:55
[kel]: so many though whether it's the social
50:58
[beverley_thomson]: ah
50:58
[kel]: media marketing and and those who really know put themselves out there it's like there's
51:04
[kel]: a worship of young impulsive stupid behavior at the expense of the wisdom of elders
51:13
[beverley_thomson]: it's almost like when you have no longer have any cultural value just drug
51:18
[kel]: a
51:18
[beverley_thomson]: you and forget about you
51:20
[kel]: yeah and
51:21
[beverley_thomson]: but these people do have cultural value they have a great deal to add to
51:25
[beverley_thomson]: to society and a great deal to contribute and you know we shouldn't be drugging
51:32
[beverley_thomson]: elderly
51:33
[kel]: yeah
51:34
[beverley_thomson]: society
51:34
[kel]: yeah i would say there's a lot we can learn from a lot of other
51:37
[kel]: cultures especially central america a lot of the asian countries and even in some countries
51:41
[kel]: in europe is the importance of this household of the generations of family raising one
51:48
[kel]: another because there's lessons
51:50
[beverley_thomson]: hm
51:50
[kel]: that can be learned and that
51:52
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
51:52
[kel]: wisdom gets passed down to multiple generations and things that a grandmother would say to
51:57
[kel]: you at a young just can stick with you for years and then you pass
51:59
[kel]: it on to the generation afterwards i often reflect back on here in the united
52:04
[kel]: states why we've lost this way when it comes to diet and some of the
52:09
[kel]: medicinal benefits of certain meals and the way things are cooked because we came here
52:15
[kel]: and we often didn't have that grandmother of that grandfather with us a lot of
52:21
[kel]: us immigrated in our twenties and then we were on our own trying to figure
52:24
[kel]: things out and we just kind of fell into this industrial country and we just
52:29
[kel]: had our own solutions we lost out on that wisdom and now we're finding it
52:33
[kel]: through the internet but we need to bring our grandparents back into the house an
52:37
[kel]: live with us you talk about self sufficiency and resiliency and those key things being
52:41
[kel]: gone and in younger generations not able to think for themselves i think that you
52:45
[kel]: hit a very good point there the families are kind of you know if there's
52:49
[kel]: more and more families that are breaking apart there's more and more people that are
52:52
[kel]: putting their they're putting
52:53
[beverley_thomson]: frozen
52:53
[kel]: more emphasis on work you know their careers
52:57
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
52:57
[kel]: and things like that but as you said it's part of the system once again
53:02
[kel]: we're a country
53:02
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
53:02
[kel]: of large
53:03
[beverley_thomson]: absolutely
53:03
[kel]: empty homes
53:05
[beverley_thomson]: and i think that if you i think i
53:07
[kel]: yeah
53:07
[beverley_thomson]: write about it at the end of my book you know the the phmacytical industry's
53:12
[beverley_thomson]: next target
53:12
[kel]: ah
53:13
[beverley_thomson]: market market is asia pacific and
53:17
[kel]: yeah
53:17
[beverley_thomson]: that's the fastest growth up to i think twenty twenty seven projected so i have
53:24
[beverley_thomson]: a friend who is from lanka and i taught to him a lot about you
53:30
[beverley_thomson]: know my work and he laughs he really laughs we've been through this we've been
53:36
[beverley_thomson]: through that we've we've coped with this what is wrong with you people
53:41
[kel]: yeah
53:41
[beverley_thomson]: mind you if we look at what we look at what's going on right now
53:45
[beverley_thomson]: in solancathey are having an awful lot to go through
53:47
[kel]: so right
53:47
[beverley_thomson]: but but again it's
53:48
[kel]: they are
53:49
[beverley_thomson]: it's a cultural perspective isn't you know it's how how they think they should try
53:57
[beverley_thomson]: to deal with things before they turn to farmasitical drugs
54:02
[kel]: i agree beverly i was hoping that there's somewhat of an awakening that is occurring
54:07
[beverley_thomson]: oh
54:08
[kel]: worldwide
54:09
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
54:09
[kel]: with these drugs but then i look at the numbers and i look at how
54:12
[kel]: many anti depressents are prescribed you have any data on what how many how many
54:17
[kel]: anti depressents are currently being prescribed
54:21
[beverley_thomson]: well i think in the in england alone where up to eight point three million
54:25
[beverley_thomson]: people who take an presence
54:29
[kel]: h
54:29
[beverley_thomson]: um
54:30
[kel]: m
54:30
[beverley_thomson]: i think the last statistics that i had i think fortifive million people in the
54:37
[beverley_thomson]: states or around that who take antistepresses
54:40
[kel]: yeah that's unbelievable that's just how normalized it has become and i think a take
54:45
[kel]: home message
54:46
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
54:46
[kel]: here is there's no such thing as a magic pill folks and this pill comes
54:51
[kel]: with really potential for severe adverse consequences and when we're talking about age ranges when
54:58
[kel]: we're talking about those under the age of twenty five likely based on the rapid
55:04
[kel]: changes of that developmental stage and the rapid brain changes that occur the adverse consequences
55:09
[kel]: are much much greater it is
55:12
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
55:12
[kel]: now time that you start asking very serious questions to your diatritians primary care doctors
55:22
[kel]: and your psychiatrists one of the questions i want everybody to ask especially to a
55:27
[kel]: psychiatrist or or a g p would you take this drug yourself would you prescribe
55:32
[kel]: this drug to your own child or adolescent given the situations that they're going through
55:39
[kel]: right now what are the adverse consequences ask those questions i understand that there could
55:45
[kel]: be two and a half times greater likelihood of suicide compared to a placebo if
55:51
[kel]: we're talking about this drug predominantly having a placebo effect why don't you just give
55:57
[kel]: him a sugar pill why not something else you know these are really important questions
56:02
[kel]: that you have to ask medical professionals because i think blind faith in the medical
56:07
[kel]: authority it's over this time has ended and these are the this is the type
56:13
[kel]: of book that you want to use as a resource because what it does it
56:19
[kel]: provides
56:19
[beverley_thomson]: kay
56:19
[kel]: very compelling accounts from real people whose lives have been harmed by prescription anti depressant
56:26
[kel]: it provides very clear scientific data and evidence that there is no such thing as
56:33
[kel]: a magic pill and we can no gor pretend otherwise because there are many people
56:38
[kel]: out there that've been on these drugs way beyond any period that they've been studied
56:43
[kel]: and they need our help we need study on future research on how to safely
56:50
[kel]: taper off these drugs and understand what type of supplements or ancillary treatment that can
56:56
[kel]: maybe relieve the symptoms of withdraw more importantly we have to prevent the next generation
57:03
[kel]: of going down a similar path
57:06
[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think it's important that we remind everybody these drugs have an f
57:12
[beverley_thomson]: d a black box warning for people under twenty five in terms of
57:17
[kel]: yeah
57:17
[beverley_thomson]: efficacy and suicidality if that's the case why do
57:22
[kel]: ah
57:23
[beverley_thomson]: we go a doctor and have prescribed to our child
57:26
[kel]: yeah
57:27
[beverley_thomson]: or a young person in our family a drug that has an f d a
57:32
[beverley_thomson]: black box warning
57:34
[kel]: great point yeah beverly what do you have going on now is there another book
57:40
[kel]: that you're starting to write what the things are you doing professionally
57:44
[beverley_thomson]: yeah you love the title of this one
57:47
[kel]: yeah
57:48
[beverley_thomson]: it's it's called the united state of anxiety
57:52
[kel]: oh boy
57:52
[beverley_thomson]: the good old u s a
57:54
[kel]: there you go let's end that conversation but i don't like being attacked
57:57
[beverley_thomson]: yes the united states it's about benzoteaspens primarily but yeah
58:03
[kel]: excellent
58:03
[beverley_thomson]: think the good us
58:05
[kel]: m yeah unfortunately we are leading the world and in this and the prescription drug
58:10
[kel]: market and mental health problems but it is unfortunately exactly what we see every day
58:17
[kel]: in clinical practice it's it's that it's
58:19
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
58:19
[kel]: that worry it's that overwhelming fear that is certainly provoked by our media and it's
58:25
[kel]: provoked by our government you can understand why we have such
58:28
[beverley_thomson]: yeah
58:28
[kel]: a mentally unwell nation right now where can
58:33
[beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry you know i think you know guys like yourselves who are inviting people
58:41
[beverley_thomson]: like me to to be able to talk about our work and talk about our
58:45
[beverley_thomson]: experiences and most of all talk out you know the experiences of real people and
58:51
[beverley_thomson]: i think that's where where change is going to happen the more we hear about
58:57
[beverley_thomson]: the experiences of real people
59:00
[kel]: no doubt beverly how can people find you how can they buy your book
59:07
[beverley_thomson]: they can find me on twitter at anti depressed one um they can buy my
59:13
[beverley_thomson]: book on amazon or at any major book store or sorry book site not really
59:19
[beverley_thomson]: book stores now
59:21
[kel]: oh
59:21
[beverley_thomson]: we don't really have many book store book sites yeah and i am launching a
59:27
[beverley_thomson]: website very soon so which will be called anti depressed and i hope that will
59:32
[beverley_thomson]: help people and have lots of resources to
59:35
[kel]: great beverley we really appreciate your coming on the program today yes thank
59:39
[beverley_thomson]: thank
59:39
[kel]: you
59:39
[beverley_thomson]: you so much for inviting me it's really
59:41
[kel]: hm
59:41
[beverley_thomson]: nice to meet you all