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"Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin"- Should Christians use this phrase? · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  You're listening to thursday mornings with alex and don
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  team ad don is a pastor with 40
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  years experience and alex is just as curious as you are we look at the most
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  important and interesting questions about the bible and christian faith so let's
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  talk about it okay pastor don good morning alex how are you doing good good
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  good all right everyone well thank you for joining us this week
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  we are still filming here this will be the second to
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  last one of these as far as for me in the driver's seat here so again
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  if you know someone that would
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  like to take over what i'm doing here the kind of the host the one that has
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  to upload things to producing and that kind of stuff let us know if you're interested
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  interested in it at all or if you know someone who is reach out to you know
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  someone within the church or someone that can get a hold of us yeah email.
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  Team at ask at gmail.com one of those
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  things and yeah we'd like to talk to you
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  to see if we can continue this and keep this thing growing because it
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  is still growing it's still got a niche audience that's basically
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  it'll grow about as fast as or grow about as much
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  as is the time you put into it at this point so cool yep
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  we'd love to have someone do that and pray for us to
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  see what this looks like in the future please yes so this next one was gonna
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  be one single topic oh dear so this was drawn to my attention this one phrase
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  that had apparently been said a lot a couple weeks ago to a certain thing and
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  maybe it was the Olympics,
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  maybe it was that the drag queen's.
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  Do you like opening ceremonies of the Olympics? That's the only thing I could
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  think of where it would create that much buzz. But the phrase is love the sinner, hate the sin.
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  And we've talked about this phrase, I think, in an episode of I think it was
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  called Attitude of Platitudes or something like that, where we were kind of
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  seeing, you know, are these biblical?
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  So the root from this comes from. Oh, boy, it's escaping.
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  I didn't write it down. I'm sorry, you guys, but if you Google it,
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  it comes from someone in like the first or second century who said something kind of like that.
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  And then someone else said something kind of like that.
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  And then it was kind of attributed to Jesus vaguely.
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  I don't know anyone who says they think it's in the Bible, but there's some
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  pushback on this from people who didn't like that Christians were saying it.
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  Yeah right right they're like that's and the common things are these these things what's not,
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  jesus is about love that's not so this isn't in the bible jesus is about love
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  so maybe the very first word is fine love but everything else is junk and then
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  who are you to call someone a sinner,
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  why would you judge them for that and those are the two principles there's there's
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  a lot more to it so the phrase is not in the bible no it isn't but can we infer
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  it based on what we know and is Is that appropriate to do in any other circumstance?
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  We can infer it as far as Jesus did.
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  Okay. And what I think is, and I'm looking for the spot, and it is not coming
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  right off the top of my head.
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  I think it's in Luke's Gospel as well as Matthew.
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  So what Jesus was doing in Luke 17...
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  He was going about and eating with sinners.
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  And then he was saying he was, they were wondering. Mark 2.
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  Oh, that'd be one. That's one of them. And he was being. Oh,
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  yeah, Matthew, these ones.
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  Those three. Okay, now you have the act. Yeah. And what he was doing was being
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  criticized by the Pharisees, you know, the holy rollers, that he was eating
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  with these people. Yeah. These terrible people.
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  These tax collectors. Reflectors and sinners.
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  And we know that as feet anointed with a questionable lady, you know.
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  And so he was receiving all this and they were upset.
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  What Jesus did was he ate with them. He was with them.
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  And then he puts that kicker on there.
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  It's not the healthy that need a physician, but those who are sick. Right.
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  And so to me, that brings it. Yeah, we love.
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  Love we love everybody and we want to love them into the kingdom right and so we will rub shoulders,
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  with those who are unlovely right but to yeah and we don't like sin right so
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  there's truth on both halves of that i think it's that piece in the middle that
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  we as we love the sinner not the sin sin,
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  how do we navigate that piece?
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  And because Luke, Paul comes on later on and says, you know,
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  separate yourself from all that.
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  And so Paul is saying, you know, get away from those people.
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  I think it's a little bit of the Pharisee coming out. Right, right, right.
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  Treat them as tax collectors or sinners. In reality, the gospel that we carry
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  as Christians is something that we want every sinner to hear.
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  Right. And we've become silent because of that statement. We love the sinner, hate the sin.
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  And so I'm not going to expose the sin because I love the sinner.
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  And you've got to be kidding me.
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  We need to expose the sin to save the sinner, of which we are all sinners.
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  But we should be all nudging because of our heart relationship with God.
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  We should all be nudging into a deeper Christian walk.
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  That reflects the values of Jesus. Right.
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  And this is the part that I kind of hinted at last week was the part of our
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  culture that says, Jesus is just love. You're just supposed to affirm people.
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  That's not in the Bible. If I have a friend that knows that I have a very destructive
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  behavior in my life, and they don't address it or they encourage it,
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  that's not a friendly thing to do.
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  That's not something that someone who actually cares about you is doing.
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  They're doing that either because they're doing other crappy things in their
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  life, and they want to be around someone else who's always also making mistakes.
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  Stakes so some people go towards that you know i've i've seen that pattern before
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  where you just want to be with someone who's also maybe messing up as well or
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  is doing the same things that you're doing because then if both of you are doing
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  and having a good time then don't feel so bad yeah,
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  and having a but you know having a friend that's going to point out all your
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  flaws to you and be critical of you and say you know i wish you know you didn't
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  do that i don't think that's good for you, sometimes that's hard,
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  but that's also someone who cares about your well-being.
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  Right. And I think it's how we point out the sin that's really critical,
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  because we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
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  That's biblical. It comes right out.
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  But how we talk about sin is important.
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  So I think in our little pea-picking heads, we realize sin disqualifies us in
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  our relationship with God.
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  Yeah. but we do sin yeah so how
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  do we work with that yeah and then we have people who well if you sin you're
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  you're lost forever right or you're not saved at all right and so you got those
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  philosophies coming out of
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  hebrews chapter 6 verses 4 through 7 so are you saved or aren't you saved.
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  They would say, if you still sin, you're not saved. Well, I'm sorry. We all sin.
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  Even the guy who, the Baptist on the other side says, well, you weren't saved because you still sin.
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  Right. And you just did too.
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  So, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, that's that part. I think in Hebrew is when it
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  says that a sinner is not going to be saved, right?
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  They use that word. Is it sinner or those who sin? Those, yeah. Yeah.
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  The passage I'm talking about is it's impossible for somebody to be saved who has done thus and so.
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  And so it's impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
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  who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared the Holy Spirit,
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  who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming
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  age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentance.
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  Because to their loss, they are crucifying the son of God all over again and
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  and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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  And we need to realize that when we sin as Christians, we are exposing our Savior to disgrace.
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  That should make some impact on us, that when we sin as Christians.
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  We should want to confess because we have exposed our Lord.
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  Right. Yeah, I used to say one of the common retorts or something that someone
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  says, well, look at all these Christians doing these things.
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  It's like, well, I would say, yeah, you know, everyone sins,
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  you know, we still struggle with sin.
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  And I'm realizing more and more, I was just like, yeah, that's terrible that
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  they're still choosing to do that.
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  You know, and I'm not condemning them by any means, but I have no,
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  I have no authority to do that.
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  But we also haven't, we also haven't created a place in the church where it's
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  good and safe to come and confess. Yeah.
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  And 1 John 1, 9 says, okay, verse 8, if we claim to be without sin,
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  we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Right. Right.
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  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify
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  us from all unrighteousness. That's a confession piece.
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  We should be doing that every Sunday, don't you think? I think.
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  Catholics got it down. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be
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  a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
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  Now, that's pretty hard stuff. Yeah.
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  So, we do love, we love the sinner, not the sin. Yeah. Yeah.
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  And that sinner includes all of us. Yeah.
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  I think of that phrase to try to like, I'll break it into like an equation because
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  that's where the logical part is for me.
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  It's like, you know, so love the sinner.
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  Okay. So like, who is the sinner? Who are we supposed to love?
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  Well, Jesus says that, you know, love your neighbor as yourself.
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  So we're commanded to love everyone. Does that mean that everyone's a sinner?
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  Well, Jesus kind of breaks it down. It's like, well, either you're righteous or you're a sinner.
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  And I say, okay, okay, let's find somebody to know. So who are the righteous?
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  So, you know, then we can find in Romans 3, Romans chapter 3, verse 9. Okay.
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  That Jews and Gentiles are all under the power of sin. Right.
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  And then also, you know, like, you know, who is righteous?
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  No, not one of you. No, not one. I forget where that one's from,
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  but it's in the same chapter, right? Yeah, in 23, in that same chapter.
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  Yeah. We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
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  That's right. So there he goes.
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  Everyone's a sinner. Everybody's a sinner. And we're supposed to love them. Right. Right.
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  And then, yeah, you hate that sin. But are we really defining the goal of the love?
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  Okay. I mean, if in our English language, that love is pretty benign.
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  It means basically I don't hate.
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  Right. So I love a hamburger and I love my wife because that's the same thing. Right.
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  I don't chew on my wife and she doesn't chew on me either.
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  So it's not the same thing. When we talk about love in the New Testament,
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  agape is a sacrificial love that we do for each other for the each other.
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  In other words, I love my wife and want the best for her, and I protect her,
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  and I take care of her, and I take her to her appointments, and I go get groceries.
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  These are things we do because of love.
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  So when we talk about love the sinner, how far are we going to go for the sinner,
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  for God's best interest in them?
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  I mean, we're all created in the image of God. How are we going to bring that out?
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  Yeah, and that doesn't always mean that you're going to be pointing out their sin to them.
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  No. And often it won't be that. But maybe we can point them to a better life.
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  Sure. Through Christ. Mm-hmm.
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  And so when I think of the alcoholic or the drug addict, I'd love to help them
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  find a better life. Right.
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  Because when you get free of addictions that hold you back, you can live a lot
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  better life. And that's positive. Right.
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  Right. That's what we need to be doing. Yes. So I just think our love into people
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  who are sinners needs to be a lot different than just benign love of the English language.
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  Yeah. I think it needs to be agape that invests.
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  Investing in them, having that care, that desire to.
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  Like God does. Yes, exactly. Yeah. See who they are inside and speak to them at the heart level.
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  Yeah not just for the you know
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  just to do something good but actually invest in
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  who they are and who they will be and what they
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  will be if they choose a different path you know just yeah investing
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  in them that's a good way to put it is it important to call them or to label
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  them as a sinner yes and no but don't and don't label them any more than you
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  label yourself right In fact,
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  I find it's easier in those kind of conversations to identify myself as a sinner,
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  saved by grace, much like Martin Luther.
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  And so if I identify what's the difference between you and me.
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  Well, your drugs and alcohol have taken you here.
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  And I know that if I get into certain situations, I could be in the same spot.
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  And so the difference between you and me is Jesus.
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  Let me share with you a little Jesus. Mm-hmm. And to me, that gets us a lot
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  farther than saying, sinner, may I show you the error of your way? Right.
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  Like that goes over like a lead balloon. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I looked at that too.
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  I was actually talking to somebody about this recently. And that point that
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  came up about labeling someone as a sinner, why is that important?
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  That actually stopped me in my tracks. Because I said, oh, I don't know.
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  Because I thought I had a really, you know, this is pretty easy to figure out. It's a solid equation.
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  You know, you can kind of fix the emotional argument that they're making and put some logic into it.
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  But then why you have to call them a sinner is two parts there.
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  That's logical and emotional.
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  And so that kind of calls into question, what is your motive for doing that?
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  And that's actually very fascinating. Yes.
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  Because that is something that someone has to derive for themselves for the
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  most part when you know you need Jesus.
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  If you don't know you're a sinner, don't think you're a sinner or think you've
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  done anything wrong, then you would have no reason to actually desire Jesus in my mind.
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  So then why do Christians think it's okay to say it?
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  And I kind of came up with, you know, like, if you like look in,
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  let's say it's on a Facebook
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  message group or or you know someone says it amidst a heated discussion what
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  is their goal there you can I feel like you should be able to see because like
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  every time I've used it it's been as a curbing of the Christian's tongue to
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  say whoa there love the sinner hate the sin that's not.
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  There's nothing that they have that is uncommon to any of us inside of them. Right.
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  Their sin still needs the grace and forgiveness through Jesus.
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  So don't look at them as being worse than you, right?
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  Right. In fact, I find it's much more profitable to look at that individual
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  who's struggling with empathy.
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  Yeah. Because, I mean, I've lived long enough, been through enough things that
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  there's often a part of me in counseling working with somebody that I can empathize
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  with what they're feeling. Yeah.
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  It doesn't matter what it is. I can, yeah.
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  I can see why you feel that way. Right. Yeah. That's very, that makes sense.
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  It doesn't mean it's going to get you a positive outcome.
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  Right. And so can I offer you another approach to what you're going through?
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  Yeah. And if we as Christians could just break out of our silos,
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  if you will, our little church silos,
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  you know, that we all have created and realize that the communities we're living
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  in need us to live out our faith in the real time and empathize and love these
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  people who are experiencing a great deal of brokenness.
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  And I think we'll find renewal in it. Yeah.
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  Because as we talk about what we've gone through, with those who need to hear
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  what we've gone through, not only will we be reaffirmed in how we came out,
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  but we will share that with others.
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  And so this sharing of the gospel starts with us.
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  It doesn't start with who we're seeing is in sin. It starts with us.
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  And so if we're to love the sinner, we got to get us understanding that is something
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  we're going to invest in.
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  That is, if we're going to love the sinner, we're going to invest in that sinner
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  in a sacrificial way like Jesus did and lay our lives out there.
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  Because most effectively, they need to hear our story before they can understand
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  it even applies to their story. Yes.
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  Yes. Yeah. Sometimes you have to be able to see the work in someone's life of
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  that salvation, get a little curious, see what's happening there.
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  And if we get into our heads in the other side of it where we're just going
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  to be actually saying everyone is a sinner, you're a sinner,
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  and I hate your sin, and that's not going to build that community.
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  Because if you think about what one little point I'll make here is that Jesus
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  used the word sinner eight times.
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  Two of those times were when he only did it twice when he attributed it to somebody else.
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  The other times is when he was using it as a label, reflecting back on somebody else's label.
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  Now, if you want to talk about how often Jesus and the gospel and the Bible
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  in general talks about not judging others and being a hypocrite for the things
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  that you are also guilty of, way bigger.
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  As far as comparisons go, that is a central message to not judge others,
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  lest you be judged for the same thing.
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  Are you being a hypocrite? Very important point.
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  That's Matthew 7. And I still say it's the Jesus example in Matthew 7 probably
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  puts us in our place as good as any other example because it says, okay,
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  I want to take this little thing out of your eye without realizing I've got
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  a telephone pole in my own eye.
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  The reality is then if I can deal with my telephone pole and remove it and help
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  you move your speck, I can do it. That's empathy. Yeah.
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  I've dealt with it. I know what it's like. It feels awful. Let me help you with
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  yours. That should be the heart of the church.
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  Loving the sinner.
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  Well, I can't say it any better than that. I think I better stop.
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  I mean, it's beautiful. I think there's a lot more also to add to just as far
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  as like more evidence to love the sinner.
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  Know what that means. There's so much more in the Bible talking about and not
• 20:00
  even exact words, but themes of take a step back, contemplate, see where you're at.
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  Are you in the right place?
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  Are you capable of seeing this? Are you being slow to speak?
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  And are you listening first? First, I heard, is it Francis Chan?
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  Is that, I think that. This would be consistent with his message.
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  Okay. He said something at a youth conference recently.
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  He talked about how, you know, you don't see a lot from what Jesus said from these years.
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  You know, he was just sitting there being a carpenter, working.
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  And then all of a sudden this explosion. And that's when he was in his late 30s.
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  He was 29 33 is 29 to
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  33 okay the age he was when he was in ministry but
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  yeah i think a lot of us with the internet and with you
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  know like it's super easy to start a podcast you guys and and you can think
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  people are and you can say all these things and you can think you have an audience
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  there are you know tiktok youtube they will make you think that there's lots
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  of people listening when you know in fact that it's just a bunch of people scroll
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  past it on their way to something on their way to a cat video.
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  Then you're not reflecting upon what Jesus actually wants in your life. Right. Yeah.
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  So being slow and calculated, understanding others is a far better...
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  Path yeah you know what i mean only few there aren't very many of us that are
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  supposed to be you know i don't know preaching i guess would you say well that's
• 21:35
  what james says he says what,
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  don't don't supposed to be a preacher a teacher right i'll be slow to be to
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  get into that profession and i suppose which i don't know many people i feel
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  like oh it's someone really having anybody not many of you should presume to
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  be teachers my brothers because you know that but those who teach will be judged more strictly.
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  And boy, in this society, it sure is the case. Yeah. Yeah.
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  That verse has fallen on my heart and reflection and prayer before.
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  Maybe not the exact words, but along those lines. And it's kind of an important
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  thing, I think, for this generation to think about a little bit.
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  Especially before my generation's all gone.
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  Yeah. We're getting close. okay dude did we cover all of that i'm not keeping
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  track i just as far as you know,
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  love the sinner and hate the sin did we touch on that empathy part of it of
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  culture i think we did didn't we i hope so and i think that's where celebrate
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  recovery is such a powerful ministry because it has those individuals who have
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  have had recovery they're celebrating that recovery And then they're drawing
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  in other people who need that recovery.
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  Yes. And it becomes a forum where we can freely share and support each other
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  and walk through the hard times together and.
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  I'll be honest, I think Celebrate Recovery might be one of our best examples of church.
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  Yes, absolutely. And what it's supposed to look like. And there's probably a
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  lot of people that are hurting and not willing to stand up and say.
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  Right. And I'd invite you, if you haven't ever been part of a Celebrate Recovery
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  worship service, find one in your community.
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  There's several in this community now. Are there? And just get a sense of what
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  that worship's all about. Awesome.
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  There's nothing more worshipful than a life that's been redeemed.
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  Amen. I like that. Will you pray us out? Can do that.
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  Heavenly Father, we thank you for your great love and mercy.
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  We thank you for this opportunity to be part of others' lives and that they
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  gave us this time to listen.
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  We pray for those who are, this message might've come to heart and be with them, Lord.
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  Give them a sense of your guidance by your Holy Spirit, get them in the right
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  spot so that they feel that love that you would like them to feel to transform their lives.
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  And may a peace beyond all understanding go with us this day in Jesus' precious name. Amen.
• 24:17
  Amen. Excellent prayer.
• 24:20
  Everyone, thank you for joining us through this long conversation.
• 24:24
  Again, we'll have one more. Yeah, 25 minutes. It's got there.
• 24:28
  Wendy. Yeah. On one topic. Well done.
• 24:32
  You can really stretch those out. Way to go. I'm windy. I'm a preacher.
• 24:36
  What can I say? All right. Well, everyone, thanks for joining us,
• 24:41
  and we will see you all next week. Lord willing. Bye.
• 24:44
  Thanks again for joining us for this week's episode. We are both having a ton
• 24:49
  of fun making these videos and episodes.
• 24:52
  And if you're having fun, too, please tell a friend about this and help us to grow this mission.
• 24:59
  Thank you and God bless.