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Sense & Sensibility · Syllabus

• Coco the soul destroyer: Also, again, if you were in Jane Austen's life, would you read these novels and be like, bitch, that's me? ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Coco: Welcome to Syllabus, the podcast hosted by two recovering straight-A millennials, Ashby and Coco, who live to overanalyze the media and culture we encounter while shedding the gold star culture that made us, Ashby: and occasionally getting lost in a tangent. If you too can't help but think a little too deeply about books movies and more you come across you're in the right place. Coco: We are so glad you're here. Ashby: Let's get into it. Coco the soul destroyer: Ashby Ashby, I'm ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: so excited. You texted me, a text I've been waiting to receive my entire life, which was, I want to do some Jane Austen for our next pod. ashby: Let's do it. Coco the soul destroyer: so you know, in part in anticipation of this latest adaptation of Sense and Sensibility, starring Daisy Edgar Jones and directed by Georgia Oakley, we are discussing Jane Austen's novel. published in 1811, but written in the 1790s when she was very young, or at least the first draft very young. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: we're gonna be discussing Jane Austen's novel Sense and Sensibility. after we maybe go through the novel and the plot and the different characters we're gonna talk a little bit about the 1995 adaptation directed by Ang Lee, written By and starring Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet, and then Alan Rickman and Hugh Grant. and a strange cast. ashby: Yeah. Fascinating cast. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: some really great like character actors kind of i in the mix. so I'm I'm pretty excited for the next adaptation that's coming out. It's already been released in the UK to like middling reviews, but ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: I'm willing to give, you know, some beautiful suns sunlight and Daisy Eger Jones being in a field a chance any day of the week. ashby: Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. I did think it was interesting to cast her as Eleanor, because I think of her as a much more of a Mary Ann, so I will be fascinated to see her range. Coco the soul destroyer: I think of her as such an Eleanor. ashby: really? Coco the soul destroyer: So I think very there's a lot that she is able to communicate without like doing as much. So I'm I think of her as an Eleanor, but yeah. ashby: Mmm. Coco the soul destroyer: But I guess she's she's a much bolder character in Twisters. ashby: yeah, that's true. That's true. I didn't think about that. Coco the soul destroyer: With a not a great American accent. So I'm happy she can be British. ashby: Yes, let her be British, please. Coco the soul destroyer: Let Daisy Edgar Jones be British. ashby: That's the official stance of this podcast. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. and keep her in those in those book adaptations. ashby: Yes. Okay, so where should we start? Coco the soul destroyer: I wanna start with the talking about the book. so like I said, Jane Austen wrote this in the the late 1790s when she was like somewhere between nineteen and twenty-one, which is ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: freaking nuts. And I think adds a layer to reading the book for sure. ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: She revised it when she was older. Of course, she was never old because she passed away when she was forty one years old. which ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: is so devastating because it's it's It's I I was feeling genuinely sad thinking like I was borderline tearing up thinking about it. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Like just you know what she could have what what we didn't get because she died ashby: I know. Coco the soul destroyer: so young and and seemed like such a a fun personality too. but maybe before we get into the full plot, Ashby, I'd love for us to just talk a little bit about like our relationship to Jane Austen and then the experience of like reading this book, like at this moment ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: in time. so Would you like to start or would you like me to go? ashby: Sure. So I've said before, I'm not a Jane Austen head. It never really hit me. my college roommate was a history major and she loved Jane Austen. And so they always had like a Pride and Prejudice or something playing. And then I just, I never, the whole thing never really appealed to me. It just seemed like a lot of women breathing heavy and like wandering around on bluffs. And it also seemed like, Coco the soul destroyer: You did text me that you now want to wander around on a bluff. ashby: Yes, yes. that also seemed like the whole thing revolved around like The stakes were very high to get a man to love you. And that just always struck me as like very anti-feminist, but we'll get into that more. And I just like, I just never like picture myself in this time period, like longing to sit at a piano in a stuffy room and make small talk with people and like hope I get married before I'm the old age of 22, you know, so. To me, that was like my very cynical vision of it. yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And I make no, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, you were like, I'm a cool girl. Not complimentary. ashby: not complimentary, I make no excuses for the extreme pick me energy that I was bringing in the years 2009 to like 2012. no. Coco the soul destroyer: But I do think there's something to what you're talking about because ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: There's like a beautiful community of people out there who do now enjoy like cosplay. And I think they've read a ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: lot of like I've grown in my understanding of like cosplay and stuff like that, whether that's like Renaissance Fair or whether that like going to a Jane Austen style tea party where you dress up like ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: that or pretending to be, you know, fantasy characters, whatever it might be. Like, and I think I now have been like, I'm trying to like get on board and not be such a snobby bitch. ashby: I'm Coco the soul destroyer: but there I've never been the kind of person who like enjoyed Jane Austen from a sense of like fantasy. Like it's not the ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: thing that I want. It's but but my joke about how I wanna be a person on the island in Moana or I wanna be a person in the Shire, the thing about ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Jane Austen novels that appeals to me is being in like a small community where people are gossiping constantly. ashby: Yes, that actually affects so much. Yes, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: absolutely. But I, yes, I had seen the coverage on the news since insensibility and I don't know why, but it seemed like I was getting a lot of streaming stuff promoted to me that was like a lot of people in bonnets on like the Brit box subscription. And I was like, you know what I mean? Where it would be like, Coco the soul destroyer: If you're on Brit box, what ashby: If you open up Prime and it's like we're running a special you could get Britbox for like $3.99 this month. Coco the soul destroyer: They do they I see. I thought you meant you like have logged into Brit Box and you're like, Why are people in bonnets? And I like, Bitch, that's the only thing that people are they're either in bonnets ashby: No, no. Coco the soul destroyer: or there's d they're old ladies and they're detectives in small towns. ashby: There's always a vicar and his murder needs to be solved. So no, no, I'm no stranger to Brit box, but I never went there for the bonnets. I've never been a bonnet chaser. did. I did. I've Coco the soul destroyer: Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The bonnet head. ashby: never been a big bonnet head. Okay. I did watch the Bridgerton, but I'm the freak that fast forwarded the sex scenes because he made me uncomfortable. Coco the soul destroyer: Like a like a Bridgerton respect to the Bridgerton community, it it actively repels me. How ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: can I say re respect to something and then say that? It is not for me. It's like fundamentally not for me. Yeah. ashby: It pretty clearly made it made itself clear to me that it was like it was like the trappings of Jane Austen world, but it was like turned up to 11. It was like almost satire levels. It was like Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: extra over the top with the with the costumes and the angst and the fingers touching and the dancing and all of that stuff and the gossip and all of that. like purely. Coco the soul destroyer: And it's like purely the fantasy of like living in that type of world. And whereas I like to be like, let's remember these these people smelled bad. I need that undercurrent. ashby: Yes, yes. but it very, it's very much like a sanitized version. It like takes Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: away the content that, that makes like a Jane Austen thing like interesting. It's like that people are coming to it and enjoying the layer of the fantasy on top of it, like in retrospect, but actually reading the stuff and like watching the older adaptations, you get much more of a sense of the the reality of the time. It hasn't been gussied up for a Netflix audience, that's for sure. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: For sure. So yeah, so I, but yeah, I was seeing more of that and I was like, well, I'm kind of laid up lately, kind of, I'm already kind of hibernating and the weather's changing and it just feels like, it feels like it might be a cozy time to watch like a two hour mini series. Like that's the amount of. That's the amount of time I want to spend with some people, maybe like pining with some letters. So I was like, this just feels like, feels like the time for me to try it. Yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: And there are letters. ashby: there's a lot of letters, a lot of pining. So it really, I got to say, it really nailed it. It really scratched the itch. watched, first of all, I read the book. I picked it up at Powell's bookstore when I went to Portland and Coco the soul destroyer: So fun. Did you buy like seventeen other books at the same time? ashby: No, I reasonably just got the one for, because Coco the soul destroyer: Wow, I'm impressed. ashby: I did want to wander around more though, but it too crowded. You know, I can't stand crowds. And it was a great read. It's got a very interesting cadence to how she writes. Really, really snarky, which I appreciated. And lot of really fascinating, people observations, you know? Like as I'm doing like work socializing or like in this case in Portland, I was at a wedding, like really gets in your head how she like classifies people and like thinks about them. So it was just something interesting to chew on. And then went home and I watched the mini series that we're gonna talk about with Kate Winslet and Emma Thompson. And then I, sorry, it's a movie. Then I Coco the soul destroyer: Just a movie. ashby: did also watch the mini series. Coco the soul destroyer: seen the mini series. So this was ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: like I didn't even know about it. It had not come across my desk and you you brought it up. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, nope, I watched that one too. And then I just kinda kept going and I watched, I watched, what's the one that I watched? It has the one sad girl. It's got a name. Yeah, that's the one. I was like, it's Coco the soul destroyer: Persuasion? Okay. ashby: got a name, likes and sensibility, yes. Coco the soul destroyer: Not seen persuasion. ashby: Well, believe me, I was starting to draw some parallels about what types of things interest Jane Austen. So I have got those at the ready. Now I have seen Pride and Prejudice. I watched part of it on a plane, the Keira Knightley one. I've seen the old one. It's just was always on in my dorm. And then I have said before that I really liked the very terrible Bollywood adaptation, Pride and Prejudice, which is where... major amount of my mental reference to it comes from because I saw that early in like my preteen years before I knew of the like existence of like the actual Pride and Prejudice, which is honestly bad. It's bad. Everyone says it's bad. I have a soft spot in my heart for it. It's apparently both bad at Bollywood and bad at Jane Austen. So it's the worst of both worlds, if you will. Coco the soul destroyer: Ugh, the one I want you to watch the most is the 2020 Emma because it is the most colorful. ashby: With all big eyes. Coco the soul destroyer: And Anya Taylor Joy, yes. it's the most beautiful to look at, and it's the one that has the most like little moments where you see her like warm it, like literally like lifting her skirt up to warm her ass on the fire, or like ashby: Mm. Coco the soul destroyer: you see these little moments where the servants like come in a room and then just like, No, fuck this, and then like leave. Like ashby: Hahaha Coco the soul destroyer: they have they just expand it a tiny bit to it's still very loving towards the characters, but it does t cheat them as being s sort of silly at the same time. Like it it it it's it mo it mocks them in like just the right amount. So I do think that one is great too. And you would just love the costumes and the colors. It's beautiful. Yes. ashby: I probably would. I love that shit. It looks very Bas Lerman, which is something I would enjoy. Okay. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. But it doesn't do the full like it doesn't do the full like pop music with the old timey stuff. ashby: Yeah, I appreciate it. Coco the soul destroyer: It's more it's more just like a tiny bit of a wink or you know, it's it's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: understanding that a modern audience is watching these people and having a tiny bit of a laugh at them and how dramatic they are about certain things. ashby: And of course I'm familiar with the Emma plot from the Clueless that I have seen many, many times. The greatest adaptation that's ever... I gotta say... Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. The greatest adaptation of all. Although I do I love Bridget Jones's diary as an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice. ashby: It's never really, that one never really hit for me. I never could quite get, I never did quite get it. I never quite got the tie for me, but Coco the soul destroyer: I gotta watch it every Christmas. ashby: But I remember being like 16 or something and like realizing that Clueless was Emma because the Coco the soul destroyer: What? ashby: Clueless was always on and so was the Gwyneth Paltrow Emma and just on TV. And I Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. Yep. ashby: just thought that I was the biggest genius of all time because this was like before people just looked stuff up on the internet all the time. I was like, my God, it's the same. And then yeah, later learning that that's not a novel observation. Coco the soul destroyer: Wait, I love Josh. ashby: Ha Coco the soul destroyer: Wait, clueless is Emma. ashby: Yes, exactly. So, you know. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, I do appreciate in the in Clueless where they're like she's gonna fall in love with her basically brother and in Emma she's gonna fall in love with a relative. ashby: That's just how it happens. gotta say, apparently it happens Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, we're gonna ashby: more than you think because that's also a part of persuasion. Anyway, we'll come back to that. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, persuasion's not my favorite, but we can definitely come back to it. It's a lot of people's favorite, which was fascinating. ashby: Fascinating. Coco the soul destroyer: yes. Okay, so I will just echo, well, I will say coming from a different place, like I'm a lover of Jane Austen. They are I have not reread them a ton, but they are books that I have reread the most of any book. particularly Pride and Prejudice and Emma, and then Sense and Sensibility, I read a couple times. Persuasion, I've read a couple times. Northanger Abbey and Mansfield Park. I only read once, not for me. That's fine. they're very different. And I was just thinking about this and I was like, I think what is fun about Jane Austen, and if you're a teenage girl, it's like reading it and feeling like, there's something like there are this potential for like deep and meaningful connections that are out there, but also you're surrounded by idiots all the time. ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And it just was there for me, like during that like phase of life where, you know, it can be kind of lonely. And just like reading the Jane Austen novels was just like this wonderful like place that you could enter into. and I read this one just now while I was on vacation. And it was just I was just reading it and I was like in a very different way from Sally Rooney, but in a similar way. It's like I don't even necessarily care what the plot is. Like I'm just ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: having fun reading it. Like I was just turning those pages and I was like, I'm having a chuckle. I'm telling my husband things from the novel. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: He's leaning over looking at some of it and being like, huh, wow. I mean, Jane Austen is so biting. Like she's so ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: mean. I pulled out some of my favorite parts where she's kind of just ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: ruthless towards these, you know, side characters primarily. ashby: Love those. Coco the soul destroyer: and it's and it's it's really great. And so I just it's kind of fun to think like That you can just keep coming back to them, but also so sad to think that there's there's no ashby: You're so right though, Coco the soul destroyer: more. ashby: that when I think about, if I had actually read this in my teens, I think I would have found them very validating because I was always a victim of the criticism of being boy crazy and finding it, that it was very important to people taking me seriously for me to downplay that as much as possible. And she really portrays like different versions of a boy crazy teenage girl. in all of her novels and Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: all of her stories and like how to present that in a way that's respectable and how to present that in a way that's not. And I would have been like, see there, I would have felt very like seen in the sense that I knew that that pressure was there. I was like, I know I'm picking up on something that there's like a way to, there's a way to be interested in boys that people will respect. And then there's a way to show that that people will consider stupid and frivolous. And that would have been like, like I said, very validating for me. I would have been like, see, I knew it. I knew it. You know? Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. I mean in this novel, especially like in the character of Marianne, who is so young, she's sixteen, seventeen years old. I think that what I think is fascinating is that like you'll be reading the novel and you're you're often seeing things through the viewpoints of different characters. And ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: so there's a judgment made against different characters. But as the novel progresses, I think you see Jane Austen's Judgment of them is either way ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: harsher because they've behaved bad to other people, or like really softened. That like there's this judgment against characters for being frivolous or s silly. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: And over time you kind of grow to see like there's a real warmth to that character. There's like something ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: else that like rounds them out as a human. And it's it's fun to to go through on that journey. But I think in this novel, you know, we see Marianne as saying, like, it's fine for me to basically be like emotions on my sleeve. I'm out there. And we understand that the world will judge Marianne for that, but we don't like ness we don't think that Marianne's feelings are like invalid, I don't think, from reading ashby: Right, right. Coco the soul destroyer: it. So, yeah, ashby: I told you I was doing a little light background listening to some podcasts Coco the soul destroyer: Isn't ashby: to just like get a little more insight since I don't know so much about like this time period or like what Jane Austen's life was like, but I listened to this podcast, this great podcast from, that's, a UK show that is called Jane Austen's Paper Trail. And so it's like a serialized podcast where they interview historians and like fans of Jane Austen. And they talk about some of her books, some of the themes of her books and like some of the themes of her life. But they the first episode is called Jane Austen, the gossip. And so they talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: That's the only I only listened to that one 'cause I didn't I I I ran out of time, but I did enjoy it. Yeah. ashby: I liked that one. Then I was listening to the one about Jane Austen, the romantic and like how in her life romance was a feature. But really they in both of those, talk about how these novels kind of they're both like validating to people who are going through this, I think who are like living in these circles and dealing with the real pressures of like their, their like social class and what their material life circumstances are going to be like. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Just economic opportunity, like what are the realities for women? I mean, wealthy privileged women, but still women. ashby: Yeah, I think they were both getting that from it. Yes, but still, And then they also talk about how they also sort of functioned as a etiquette guide. It's like they're told through these stories, but they're to give examples in a way to young ladies of like what could happen to you, in a kind of wrapped in kind of a fun, salacious kind of story. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: and that she's actually pulling from a lot of real events, like real examples Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: of fallen women or infamous women that really inform a lot of the examples in the book. And yeah, I just had some appreciation for that. There's something about these books where Jane Austen is taking women's lives seriously, and yet at the same time, the world considers romance or like wanting a lasting and loving connection with a person wanting to feel like in a good solid loving partnership. The world treats that for these like 17 year old girls as like a silly thing that's frivolous but it is actually also the most important factor in determining what their life is going to be like. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, are you gonna be can you have a happy life because you found ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: someone that like loves and respects you? Or are you just going to be entering and there's so many examples of bad marriages? There is ashby: Yes. Right. Coco the soul destroyer: no shortage of like, like you're saying, like there are the examples, and I think it took me a long time because I would just read Pride and Prejudice and I'm focused on the like, you know, the main stories that we're interested in. But there's that side story of the one sister who gets ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: basically whisked away by Wickham, and ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: there's the at a point of a gun, like you have to marry her because you've now had sex with her. Like it's not said that. They don't say it in the book. ashby: Right. Yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Took me to being an adult to being like, like that girl almost got like rude like ostracized from society. And maybe the ashby: Yeah, her life nearly got real bad. Yeah! Coco the soul destroyer: whole family and now all of the child daughters could not be what I did think was funny though, when I was this sorry, tangent side note ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: or but what I did think was funny is that Jane Austen herself was one of eight, but only had one sister. And I was l thinking about these novels and I I don't have a record of all the brothers. The brother is terrible in this. He's a half-brother. and I was like, ashby: In sense and sensibility, you mean. Coco the soul destroyer: In sense and sensibility, there's like the half-brother that's he's not ter he's terrible in like a dumb way. he's not a malicious actor, but he's he falls short of being a good person pretty significantly. But I was like, man, I don't rem there's so many of her novels are like. just sisters. And it's like so much emphasis on sisterhood. And as like a person who's like, my best friend is my sister, it is ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: like I'm like, that's part of what is like fun about the novels is ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: like you're the it's the sisters hanging out and they're all real whole people with like different personalities. ashby: Yes, they are. Yeah, no, it's fascinating. And like her and her sister, Cassandra had like a really close relationship. And, you know, apparently most of the historians get a lot, a lot of Jane's like real point of view and real personality comes through in her letters to Cassandra. And you can really see, I mean, it is once you learn about their relationship, it is impossible not to see how she's recreating. a sort of Jane and Cassandra in every single book. Like there's always like the sensible sister and the strong-willed sister. And it's so interesting to me how across all of her different works, like she takes sort of each of their point of view. And it seems like she never really lands on which one is best. Like I think in Sense and Sensibility, she kind of comes out with like, certainly Eleanor's way of doing things is the most proper. and well received by society, but at like what cost. And then in Pride and Prejudice, it's like she takes the total opposite opinion. It's like where she's like, where she's, and she has, Coco the soul destroyer: It's the r inverse. Yeah, Lizzie is the much more unconventional. ashby: she said of Pride and Prejudice that it was like her own darling child. Like it was like her favorite book that she had written and she was like so proud of it. And I just think there's something interesting in the idea of her maybe like having the most fun. writing the character that she didn't identify the most with, with like trying on this other persona that's a little more willing to toe the line of propriety a little bit more. So yeah, the sisterhood thing is very much centered and I think she's equally a little bit abiding about like just the failings of men and their responsibility to take care of women. Of just like the brother and the dad. The brother in Sense and Sensibility just being cowed by his wife and thinking so highly. She nails a type of person's psychology. Just absolutely nails it. And then the dad in Pride and Prejudice just being sort of laughing at kind of how inept he is in a lot of ways. Just fascinating. Coco the soul destroyer: And the and the mother being like, we have so many daughters, we g we don't have property for them. Yeah. And ashby: Get with the program, Mr. Bennett. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: the mom, I I think that what I I do love about the the Joe Wright adaptation of of Pride and Prejudice is you get more empathy for the mom in that ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: just by the the portrayal. Like you get the I think sometimes she s seems like a really ridiculous character. she's so like Boy crazy. But it's like she I think you see the just like fear for her like daughters in that film a little bit more. and that's what I think a great film adaptation can do is like bring in some of those additional layers or like add in like the emotional layer that complements the intellectual. ashby: So now we've kind of covered our like broader, you know, vibes with Jane Austen and Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: her like major works that we're familiar with. So maybe we'll get more into like sense and sensibility now. Coco the soul destroyer: All right, so we're turning to our best friend, Sir Wikipedia. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: I pulled out a couple of a couple of excerpts that I liked. just to s to kick us off, and I'll just mention a note about the characters in Jane Austen novels. I had to myself often refer to like a map of characters because ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: it is difficult because there's a lot of like Mrs. Dashwood. There's two different Mrs. Dashwoods. Miss Dashwood often means Eleanor, but like it could mean someone else. it's just the naming convention. and sometimes it's confused who's married to who or who's related to who We'll try to keep it clear. All right. On his deathbed, Henry Dashwood makes his son, John, promise to provide for his stepmother and half-sisters, Eleanor, Marianne, and Margaret from his from his inheritance. John's wife, Fanny, instead persuades him not to support them financially, leaving them a greatly reduced income. ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: and so this just that the kind of this is truly like the very first little bit of the novel. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: so Fanny's brother Edward Farers arrives for a visit. When he and Eleanor seem to be growing close, Fanny warns Mrs. Dashwood that their mother has higher goals for Edward. Affronted, Mrs. Dashwood moves her family to Barton Cottage in Devonshire, which her second cousin, Sir John Middleton, offered for a low rent. Later, when dining with the Middletons at Barton Park, Family friend Colonel Brandon is attracted to Mary Ann. However, he is age 35, which seems too old to to 16-year-old Mary Ann's romantic sensibilities. So ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: that's the sort of VV just starting off point. Ashby, any like initial reactions, or I have a couple of things we could dive into. ashby: yeah, I, I in both of the adaptations that I watched, I think they absolutely nailed the dynamic between the brother and his wife. And Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: they, they do such a, I watched both adaptations and they're so different, like Coco the soul destroyer: Uh-huh. ashby: in, you know, the casting and like choices, but they do some of the things the same. They make Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: this Fanny character. very sort of like prudish, they make her a little older, they give her this ostentatious hairstyle with the flattened, curled rings on her head. And both of them, they're they're conveying so much about her. And it just, and the sort of like, cowdness of her husband in this matter, and just the greediness comes through and the selfishness It is such a great depiction because it's some of the funniest dialogue early on in the book is just them basically negotiating down with themselves. the husband and wife like negotiate down about how much they're going to actually support the female family members, they convince themselves that it's the even more charitable option. And Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: I think that's a really like genius. stroke from the writer of being like, the thing is, people are so good at convincing themselves that their good intentions match their lack of action. And the theme kind of continues throughout the book. And then toward the end of the book, there's a part where he starts to realize that men may be interested in his sisters. And Jane writes, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: Jane writes like something to the effect of, having resolved for himself to not do anything for his relatives, he was very anxious that other people should get right on it. And he's just very funny. It's just the delusion, but it... Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: He's even like, maybe this random lady's gonna leave you money. Yeah. And he's their half brother. So it's basically their father had a a wife who passed away. That's the ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: brother's mother. And then there's the three daughters that are from Mrs. Dashwood. So there's ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: not a relationship between John and Mrs. Dashwood that's like, that's my mom, because I think ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: that would make him almost like too evil of a character. Yeah. ashby: Right, of course. it's like, you know, certainly there could be, I don't know, maybe we'll see a different vert in the new upcoming adaptation. Like maybe we'll see a different kind of interpretation there, but I just think that that was such an excellent insight into like a type of person and especially a type of like feckless man that it was just Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: perfect that, you know, a little part of me is like inclined to try to think that maybe Fanny really... herself has some actual anxiety about like their ability to support other family members maybe because of her own experiences with the precariousness of being like a female that can't inherit anything. So that hearing that through four people that she barely knows are going to take a big chunk out of her husband's income. Like maybe that maybe that is like a truly scary thought to her. But we're of course seeing this from like Eleanor's perspective and It's a pretty unthinkable. Coco the soul destroyer: think Fanny is a type of person that a hundred percent exists in real life. So I don't need to give her any grace necessarily. Yeah, Fanny ashby: Yes. Fanny is a Real Housewife. Coco the soul destroyer: is a real housewife. And like I think that you know he John is so happy to be talked out of helping his family. So this ashby: Yes, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: is not this is just she and I think it's a really cleverly written character in Fanny that like this is how you manipulate people. ashby: This is how you do it, yeah. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, and she's not wrong. Like Fanny elegantly is able to be like, well, wouldn't it be like more helpful to them for them to like be empowered on their own certain ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: I think something that I was thinking about that I I would hope maybe from this new adaptation we'll we'll find out is both in the book and in the film version, we don't get a ton of time where we're like seeing the early time with Edward and Eleanor to like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: build the like ostensible ashby: I know. Coco the soul destroyer: like romantic main, you know, for our protagonists, like their main romantic interest and like there's a lot of longing. So they're not together for like most of the book or the film. And we don't get a lot of insight into like why they like love each other. One of the things I wrote down was like, people will just be like, man, he's in love with her. And it's like he looked at her six times. Like Like there's not ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: so much to go on. And in something like Emma or Pride and Prejudice, you really do get the like understanding of like why these two characters like love each other or have tension or whatever it is. but I did enjoy the way that Eleanor is like talking about Edward to Marianne. So I have an excerpt of that. ashby: Mm-hmm. I Coco the soul destroyer: Okay, would you like to read it? I can here we go. ashby: sure. Well, I have seen a great deal of him, have studied his sentiments, and heard his opinion on subjects of literature and taste, and upon the whole, I venture to pronounce that his mind is well informed, his enjoyment of books exceedingly great, his imagination lively, his observation just and correct, and his taste delicate and pure. His abilities in every respect improve as much upon acquaintance as his manners and person. At first sight, his address is certainly not striking and his person can hardly be called handsome till the expression of his eyes, which are uncommonly good and the general sweetness of his countenance is perceived. At present, I know him so well that I think him really handsome or at least almost so. What say you, Marianne?" And Marianne says, I shall very soon think him handsome, Eleanor, if I do not now. When you tell me to love him as a brother, I shall no more see imperfection in his face than I do now in his heart. I thought you were going to do the part where she says, I greatly esteem him. And, and Marianne Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: is like, if you talk like that, I'm going to fucking get out of here. Coco the soul destroyer: This is it, and I love Marianne's Okay, I will say it is weird when you're reading it out of context because when you're ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: reading the novel, you do just get into the flow of like how this is written. And it doesn't ashby: Yeah, how they talk, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: because she's so good at at writing, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: like you get you get immersed in it, so you find even like the humorous pieces. I ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: imagine someone might be listening to it, and it sounds like a wall of text. So apologies if ashby: You Coco the soul destroyer: that was a little bit of a longer one. but I just wrote like Girl, just say you're horny for him. Like you don't need to do all this. ashby: But it is so, it is so like the exact same thing as when, you soft launch a new boyfriend to the group chat and you're Coco the soul destroyer: Ooh. ashby: and you like have to pick the right picture from his dating profile. Cause you know, Coco the soul destroyer: No. ashby: he's got some absolute bombs in there where you're just like, who took this? Why from below? Why is it blurry? And you just like try to find one that's like really good. you don't want to seem too enthused. but you also do wanna kind of defend them a little bit and you wanna seem realistic where you're like, know, he could stand up, wear a different shirt, you know, this is like a bad picture. But you know, I've talked to him and he's a little shy. So I recognize in a group setting, he might not come off great, but when I've hung out with him, he's actually like very deep. You guys just don't see that. And it is like the most relatable shit where you're like, where Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: you're just like, you guys don't understand, like, sometimes men's good qualities don't like show well. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And and and Eleanor, you imagine this is also coming from your more reserved friend. Like that, ashby: Yes, of course. Coco the soul destroyer: you know, she's this is she's embarrassed to be like, I like him, I have a crush. Like that kind of thing. ashby: Yes. But she, think it's funny because, you know, the book is sense and sensibility. She's like, there's the one sister that has sense and the one sister that is much more about her sensibilities. And Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: the sister with sense is trying to create a sort of rational inventory for why she likes him. She's like, well, he has good opinions and he has read books and he has his own thoughts. And I think those are great qualities, even if He's a little bit not that much to look at except, he seems kind of smart when you talk to him. he's just shy. Like it's very funny that she is trying to quantify her interest and attraction to him, but in a way that's very sensible. She's trying to just Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: be like, he's a very sensible man. And those are things that I like in a person. I agree that when you're first reading it, I'm not sure if this is on purpose or not because part of what I think now that I think about this as a kind of cautionary tale or almost like a handbook for etiquette. Coco the soul destroyer: This one is very like I I wrote even wrote that down. It feels very like these are the morals of the story and these are ashby: Yes, exactly. Coco the soul destroyer: the life lessons. ashby: but now that I think of it from that angle, I almost wonder if the reserve, the lack of detail that the reader gets about what their relationship is about is on purpose, is that it should be private and that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: you shouldn't actually know that much about what the two people see in each other because if you did, then that means they're too loud with it. And then by contrast, Mary Ann's relationships are a lot more leave nothing, like, they're really playing out in public, but we kind of don't know that much. Edward is kind of this mystery figure and we don't Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: really understand why they would like each other, but in a way that kind of makes sense for like an Eleanor character. It would be almost kind of out Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: of place for her to be like, go into detail even just from a narrative perspective because her earliest version of Sense and Sensibility was written through letters. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: So it- So it would have been like if Eleanor was writing a letter to Mary Ann and back and forth and like you can imagine that Eleanor would be sparse in the details. Like she's not going to be like today we were Coco the soul destroyer: She's not gonna be like, and like those shoulders though. I was like, what what's a detail that they might draw attention to? ashby: Yeah, she's not going to be like to... I know, or like, we were in the library today and like, my god, he was like reading that book so sexy. Like, you know, like she's not going to be full of details. now that I kind of like have a better grip after reading the whole book of these two characters of Edward and Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: Eleanor, they're reserved, one might even say neurodivergent people and... that what they get out of hanging out with each other is very much happening on a silent subconscious level that's not Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: being communicated. Coco the soul destroyer: Jane Austen had a type of guy and it was this kind of guy because it's ashby: Yes. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: the it often is I mean that's Mr. Darcy is I don't ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: think a lot of the internet would say neurodivergent. ashby: little bit what is yes or what is the other what's the other way it's not rough around the edges but it's sort of like you know they grow on you they grow on you yeah Coco the soul destroyer: I mean they're they're Yeah, yeah, you have to get to know them to see that they have really great characters. ashby: Mm-hmm. and honestly, at first I kind of kept thinking that, because I'm not familiar with the story when I first read it, I kind Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: of thought Edward might've been a red herring as like, this is the summer camp boyfriend, okay? That there always is one. And I was Coco the soul destroyer: Uh-huh. Yeah. Cause there always is one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: like, okay, so she's gonna fall in love with someone else that's either super different than this or that it catches her by surprise that she actually can feel different kinds of love, you know, like a very reserved kind of love for Edward, but then it doesn't compare to a more passionate love like she has described between like Mr. Darcy and Lizzie. It's not how it turned out. I guess in this version, she wanted the fantasy to be true that in fact, this guy that we first thought ain't shit, maybe actually maybe he is shit. Coco the soul destroyer: Kind of. We don't get to see enough of him. But ashby: We still don't know. Coco the soul destroyer: again, the center of the story is the two sisters, really, in a way that's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: different than some of the the where the romance is a little more centered. but I okay, I d I do we I do wanna pull out one of the moments where I thought, like, Jane Austen, you bitch, I love you. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and this is her what I would describe as her vicious takedown of Lady Middleton. So what what has happened, ashby: yes, I love these. Coco the soul destroyer: the dad dies, the law stipulates that the house goes to the the brother. The brother does not help these women. So they're like writing letters to acquaintances being like, We're kinda homeless, like you gotta place ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: for us to live. So they get a quote unquote cottage. The cottage, at Sir John Middleton's house. and I love the character of John Middleton because John Middleton just wants to throw parties and have people around. So like you get like it's implied the rent is cheap because he's like, Well, there's gonna be like young people living nearby. I can throw mad parties. And he ashby: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: has a wife who is just a a dud. Yes. ashby: A dud. Coco the soul destroyer: And so this is the wife, this is the I did enjoy that in the Angley film. Lady Middleton is and all of her children are replaced by a bunch of dogs, essentially. Like they killed her off. ashby: Yeah, I was kind of shocked by that. There were a couple of people that were missing in the stories and a couple Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: of things that were missing from the adaptations that I know we'll get to, but the other version does have Lady Middleton. And I do Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: think that she, I think it comes through what they were trying to get at. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, yeah. All right, I'll read this one. so so they're like they've arrived in this house and they're ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: meeting Lady Middleton. So they were, of course, very anxious to see a person on whom so much of their comfort at Barton must depend, and the elegance of her appearance was favorable to their wishes. Lady Middleton was not more than six or seven and twenty, her face was handsome, her figure tall and striking, and her address graceful. Her manners had all the elegance which her husbands wanted. He's he's a brash party boy, kind of. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: but they would have been improved by some of his frankness and warmth. And her visit was long enough to detract something from their first admiration by showing that, though perfectly well bred, she was reserved, cold, and had nothing to say for herself beyond the most commonplace anchorier remark. They're like, she came in and she was like so hot and cool. And then we were like, she's boring ass. So boring. ashby: She's so boring. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: She says nothing interesting. And this bur the burning of Lady Middleton is it never ashby: Continues. Coco the soul destroyer: s this is not one where we come around to liking Lady Middleton at any point. ashby: Nope, nope. She's not particularly like trying to find the empathy with every female character. Nope, not at all. She makes Coco the soul destroyer: Nope, nope, nope. ashby: it very clear that some people have esteemable qualities and a lot of people don't. that's what makes them esteemable is that it's so easy for so many people, especially rich people to just coast on being tall and rich. honestly good for this woman. Like she didn't have to develop a personality much. She's like, I'm, I'm going through the motions here. Okay. Like, yeah, no, exactly. And like, I'm kind of just like, that's basically Coco the soul destroyer: She's basically a trad wife, Ashby. I mean, they all are, because it's the only option available to them. ashby: you know what? Good for her that she she's the equivalent of like, top lane boyfriend, like she did not have to put the effort in Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: to reading books and seeming interesting and learning all the dances and like listening to people and, appealing to them. And it kind of seems like she doesn't need that either. She doesn't have a lot of friends. She mostly dotes on her children. having read this and watched the other adaptations and stuff, you're starting to get Jane Austen's point of view, okay? Which is a little Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: bit how, you know, the phrase like youth is wasted on the young is sort of like, you know, wealth and stability is kind of wasted on the boring. And some of these really like quote unquote good matches where you'd have a manner and servants and all of this stuff is just wasted on people who seem kind of vapid and like they don't. appreciate it. they're just sort of floating through it. They're kind of like placeholder people. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And they're obsessed with money. Like that's the consistent themes. They're pretty overtly obsessed with money. And I actually like think that's very refreshing in reading the Jane ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Austen novels. It's like, what is the income? Like what ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: is and I it's it's blunt. It's not like ever they're like this I'm interested in this guy. This is how much makes. Materialists would what well, it's almost the opposite of the materialists. ashby: it's it's materialist. my God, that sucks. she's kind of making a point, which is like some of us have had to actually try we've had to actually like develop Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: an interior life. We've had to actually read books and learn how to make an impression on people, because we depend on all of these people's good graces to live. So they have to be like good party guests. That's literally their job or else. you know what I mean? They have to actually be considerate, good. They have to. Coco the soul destroyer: It's true. They have to go to the parties and it's like a part of it. It's like whether you're socialized out or not, like you're going to dinner because the the rent is cheap because that's why we're here. ashby: you're going and yeah. Or you're keeping an old lady company and you have to like Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: have the ability to flatter her but make conversation. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: But I think the needle that she threads with Eleanor is a person who's trying to both meet all of these expectations of people because she sensibly understands that that is what their life depends on is being good company essentially. But at the same time trying to hold something for herself. to not just become a, she contrasts with some other characters later, just a complete flattery monster who has no personality of their Coco the soul destroyer: we'll get to that. Yep. Mm-hmm. ashby: own. So you can go either way. You can either be a kind of vapid shell of a person who contributes nothing like Lady Middleton, or you can be these other characters that go way out of their way to like, to sort of be insincere in these moments. And so Eleanor is trying to thread a needle of How can I be good company and polite and indulge people while at the same time not being insincere and still holding my own opinions and not going further out in terms of gossip that I'm comfortable with and retain my reputation? So she's sort of showing you in a little bit of a way like a Mary Sue, a person who's able to walk that tightrope. over time, a picture kind of emerges she's kind of like some... You remember Booksmart? The movie Booksmart? Coco the soul destroyer: yeah! ashby: It's like, sometimes you can be the not popular girl and you can turn that into your personality in a not great way where you're like, these people are so vapid and stupid and shallow and like they're all gonna be Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, they did. ashby: sorry one day when they... I'm the only person that's had to actually develop personality. Coco the soul destroyer: And then they were all like getting into Ivy League schools and actually were really smart. We just also ashby: Yeah, they were like, no, we just, yeah, we actually just didn't just do that. You know, we weren't. Coco the soul destroyer: like to have fun. ashby: Yeah, yeah. So there's some of that there where I start to see that in a lot of her characters. Coco the soul destroyer: Just while we're on Lady Middleton, I did find it's not too much farther on, a little bit farther, but this is another part where we just read Lady Middleton to Phil. ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: so okay, so Eleanor needed little observation to perceive that her reserve, Lady Middleton's reserve, was ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: was a mere calmness of matter, with which sense had n nothing to do. Towards her husband and mother, she was the same as to them, and intimacy was, therefore, neither to be looked for nor desired. She had nothing to say one day that she had not said the day before. Her insipidity was invariable, for even her spirits were always the same, and though she did not oppose the parties arranged by her husband, provided everything were conducted in style, and her two eldest children attended her, she never appeared to receive more enjoyment from them than she might have experienced in sitting at home. And so little did her presence add to the pleasure of the others. by any share in their conversation that they were sometimes only reminded of her being amongst them by her solicitude about her troublesome boys. ashby: Yep, she's a boy mom. Coco the soul destroyer: She I just said they're like, she's a robot. Like they're like ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: sh this woman does this woman is a piece of furniture who's like should the ashby: She goes through the motions, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: as as long as things look the correct style, then she's fine. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Now her mom is a banger. Mrs. Jennings, ashby: Yeah, totally different person. Coco the soul destroyer: yes. ashby: Totally different vibes. But I do think there's something there in that sometimes you'll notice that the children of very gregarious people are totally the opposite. But I do think Lady Middleton is such an interesting character for Jane Austen to kind of write her disdain for motherhood also. And I found some of those both really fascinating and like a little bit kind of agreed with that I... I was like, kind of, I kind of see what she means and I kind of like do agree with her. Like there's, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Jane Austen often did have to care for children, I think ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: is a part of it. And I did pull out that like bit where she's talking about the children. ashby: But like to Lady Middleton, like they can do no wrong. Like that's where she's put Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: all of her mental energy and effort is she's so proud of her very badly behaved children. And she's sort of like, that's sort of her price is like, Mr. know, John Middleton's whole energy is focused around is he wants young people to come to his parties and like be lively and like keep his house full of like... Yeah! He wants to like keep things going. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: He's little bit Kyle Cook. He but like but really warm energy. I not like a creep, not like not like an abusive husband the way that Kyle Cook is. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to be a DJ. ashby: No, no. Adult male blonde, sure. Yeah, he wants to keep it going. He wants there to be... He wants to be the center. He wants to be the host. He wants to hear the Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: gossip going on. He still wants to stay relevant. He's not ready to go off and sleep in his recliner. He's not ready for that life. Coco the soul destroyer: Tiny bit he's like, I want some ladies to be around because the young guys will come around and they'll go hunting with me. Like that's ashby: Yes, exactly. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: the thing. He's like, I want to do sportsman-y things. Like, I wanna have parties. Uh-huh. ashby: Yeah, and he wants, I also got the sense that they live kind of in the country. And so I think he would just be lonely otherwise. And Coco the soul destroyer: Yes, he's an extrovert. ashby: if you're not like in town, if you live like on a big country estate, if you're not constantly hosting, then yeah, you can get the suburban isolation. So I was like, I kind of get that from him is that he wants, you know, he has developed a taste for like being around people and he likes, you know, gossip and intrigue and stuff like that. Also, you kind of get the sense he's an extrovert and like if it was just him hanging out at his house with his wife, he'd be so bored. Coco the soul destroyer: A bit. I was just thinking, I was like, do you think that John Middleton married Lady Middleton because his mother-in-law is a blast and a big ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: gossip like him? And they're like, we can just like kiki. Yeah. And ashby: We can make this work. Yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: so so let's meet Mrs. Jennings, who is amazing. this is again one of those instances where we're kind of like Meeting Mrs. Jennings through the perception of like Eleanor primarily, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: but also like Marianne. We get kind of like what Marianne's reactions to things. Marianne doesn't hide her opinion. So if she doesn't like someone, she's kind of rude to them. and you keep in mind that like Eleanor and Marianne and Margaret and Mrs. Dashwood have all just been like kicked out of their house, right? ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And like they're like maybe a little bit down in the dumps. And in comes this like big energy of John Middleton and Mrs. Jennings, like into their lives and also physically into their cottage. And they're all like, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Who do you who do you have a crush on? Like, you're ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: gonna do this, let's tease you about boys. And they're like, We're sad. ashby: Yeah, they really come in guns blazing, like so excited for company. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And yeah. And so Eleanor is like describing Mrs. Jennings as good-humored, merry, fat, elderly woman. I was like elderly. She probably wasn't not that old. who talked a great deal, seemed very happy and rather vulgar. Like she was full of jokes and laughter, and before dinner was over, had said many witting witty things on the subject of lovers and husbands. like she this is just the type of woman that she is. And like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: I I think it's interesting because. We're seeing that Eleanor's perceiving her as being like ill mannered. Like she's not this is not how you're supposed to behave. ashby: Yeah, she's boisterous. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: and I'm just like, what a blast. She seems aspirational to me. She's like a lady ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: who's like, I have nothing better to do than like try to like matchmake all the youths in my life. ashby: Yeah, I think she's fun, but I can understand. I can understand Eleanor's perspective too of like, you're basically being forced into a room with like a bomb with like the person who's the opposite of everything you are, who's going to spill your secrets, who has no tact and can just, and if you're a sensitive person, like these kinds of personalities, they think everything's a joke and it's fine, but you can take some of their like, barbs kind of hard. And this person has the power in this scenario to truly embarrass them in front of other people. So I can see how being around this person would make Eleanor so uneasy. And being around a person who's demonstrating more tact and warmth and I'm gonna take care of your feelings and your reputation would set a different safety tone for her. But yes, I agree that Mr. Jennings is fun and none of it is malicious. It's just totally, she's lived long enough. that she's trying to have fun with things, okay? She just thought taking Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: things so seriously. But I also understand that the stakes for Eleanor are very different. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, I mean and it's so embarrassing to be like someone's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: like going around being like, You have a crush on this guy. ashby: I know. And especially if like that can, you know, I learned from the podcast, like that can Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: get around and make it seem that can get around and seem bigger than it is or more serious than it is, or it can get back to them. Like that can create like lots of problems for her. So I can see Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: her being like uneasy around them, but also Mrs. James by the end of the book is like one of my favorite characters. She grows on you. Coco the soul destroyer: She gr you you that's one of those examples where like you maybe think not only Eleanor is reading this character in this way, but Jane Austen feels this way about this character. But I think we learn more like Mrs. Jennings becomes just a very like maternal, really good-hearted person who's like, I wanna protect people and if someone does what you wrong, fuck them. ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: Okay, let's meet some more characters. So okay, they're at their cottage and while out walking, Marianne sprains her ankle. John Willoughby happens upon her and carries Marianne home. During subsequent visits, their similar artistic taste causes Marianne to fall in love with him, abandoning caution and propriety. Just as an engagement seems imminent, Willoughby informs the Dashwood that his elderly cousin, Mrs. Smith, whom he whom he is financially dependent upon due to his debts. Is sending him to London indefinitely on business. Marianne is left distraught. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: So I don't have any like excerpts for this, but I did think I do think there's like something funny in here that is like, yeah, if you're like 16 or 17 and like some guy comes in and he's like, I like the same books as you, that is a trap, girl. Don't do it. It's ashby: Yeah, I know, it's crazy. The folly of youth. You just can't know that they're just pretending to like the same bands as you. You can't know that, you know? Or yeah, or you're pretending to like what they like and then you actually watch Scarface and you're like, sucks. Like, yeah, she doesn't know, okay? But it's so relatable It's also a situation that is like tailor-made for Mary Ann's brain, which is like, yes. But it's Coco the soul destroyer: She's so innocent too. Uh-huh. ashby: you got to think from Mary Ann's perspective, she wants to feel all the feelings. She wants to live a big life. she reads these books and she's fans of this music. she's an artistic soul. She wants to really experience everything that life has to offer. And the idea of being reserved to her and just respecting the person you're married to rather than feel passionate love for them is like anathema to her. So you have to realize that she's walking in the rain, she's injured, she's vulnerable. And then this hero pulls up and throws honestly propriety out the window by picking her up, which is not done, and throws that out the window. Yes, her fantasy. Of course. Coco the soul destroyer: The meat cute matches her fan her idea of what this is. So she's set up to just fall head over heels for this. Honestly. ashby: a dashing sort of cad. Yeah, a dashing fuck boy. It happens. Coco the soul destroyer: Fuck boy. ashby: It's all happened to all of us. it's kind of like not her fault because this is made in a lab to appeal to her. it's important to know that that's what these dudes prey on. They prey on like, the hunger that young girls have for just feeling something strongly with someone else, you know, like Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: that connection. And really, I think the fact that he was willing to throw out propriety, which is something she abhors, and pick her up and be a man of action is something that super got her blood going. Because later on, she's like, you know I hate this stuff. You know I hate proper conduct. I don't stand on ceremony like that. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. And she's also she's like in contrast to her sister. She's like ashby: Yes, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: she barbs at her sister a number of times. Like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: you you just like hold everything in, like, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and you think that's better, but it's not. but I do love when like the next day, Marianne is like asking John Middleton, like, Hey, what do you know about this guy? And he's like, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: my God, he's such a good guy. He loves to hunt. And then she's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: like, but what is he like though? As a person, he's like, I would never know how to answer that question. ashby: No, it's so true. You cannot ask men about their friends. They have no... Coco the soul destroyer: I loved it. ashby: It's perfect. Coco the soul destroyer: Like so what what about your friend Bob? Well, my god, he's got this tractor and ashby: He drives a Chevy. Yeah. he's really good at Call of Duty. It's just like not helpful at all. Coco the soul destroyer: my god. ashby: No. And that also was funny because he's basically like, well, all this tumbling about of ankles and everything. My other friend I had in mind for you doesn't stand a chance. Yeah. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Let's talk about that a little bit. So we meet Colonel Brandon, who's a friend of John Middleton's, and he's 35 years old, right? yes, ashby: An absolute old ass. Coco the soul destroyer: and there's this amazing passage where they're talking about it, and They're all joking. They're like, this guy's like likes you. we can just tell that this guy likes you. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: He watched you play the piano and he was like drooling. they don't make it sound creepy, but like still I would say. Ew. Yeah. ashby: Mm-hmm. In modern standards, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And she's like he's old enough to be my dad. Fair critique, Marianne. he's old enough to be my dad. Also, he's like an invalid. He likes to wear flannel because he's complained of back pain. And then the ashby: Yeah. he's talked about like how the weather hurts his knees and shit. you think I'm supposed to be with somebody like that? how could you wish that on me? You know? Coco the soul destroyer: mom the mom is like, she's like, I can't believe someone who's five years my junior, you think, is like about to go to the grave. And I'm just like, the mom is my the mom is my age, basically. The mom is so young. like ashby: I know, I know, I know. Coco the soul destroyer: she's 40, 41. Like she's young. I mean these Girls are young. They're like sixteen between like sixteen and twenty, you know. ashby: Yeah, I mean, I do hate that because I do see Maryann's perspective where if you are young and you haven't lived any life yet, the idea of being saddled with someone who you'd basically be their nursemaid and you'd not get to experience that passionate, exciting love of like two young people who are from the same generation and have like lived with the similar things. Like he's Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: a war veteran, okay? she likes to dance and... read music, they don't have a ton in common. So I could see her being like, God, everyone's trying to put their yeah, but it's a sensible match for you. If he's into you, that should be enough on her. I can see the frustration. Yeah. And if, and if he's into Coco the soul destroyer: They're like, he has a good reputation and he's rich. What else do you want, babe? ashby: you cause you're young and hot, that's the best you can hope for. And she's like, that's actually not the best I can hope for. I think she would rather end up with a poorer person that she shares more passion and stuff with. So. Coco the soul destroyer: I do love the debate between Eleanor and Marianne though. with Edward hanging out at the table about what poor means is very funny because ashby: Yeah, it is. Coco the soul destroyer: Marianne's like, I don't need to be with someone rich. I would be fine with a more modest lifestyle. And Eleanor's like, well, I think it's silly to not want financial security, basically. be sensible, want s financial security. And then but and then but Eleanor's like, I have a sneaking suspicion that the numbers that we have in mind are ashby: are very different, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Or not that yeah. Marianne actually wants more money that she considers modest. And Eleanor's ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: like a smaller amount is a financially secure life. they have different, you know, visions of what things would be. ashby: Well, and what I learned from the podcast too, is that at Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: this time, a lot of, you know, whether a woman is seen as a gold digger kind of thing also went Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: into whether or not you were being evaluated as a good match for someone. So apparently how you dressed when you went to the balls was like a big deal. you wore, most women apparently would opt to wear like white muslin and soft shoes for dancing. but you would accessorize that with like colorful ribbons. Or if you wore a pastel color, then you would have like white ribbons and things like that. But if you were to wear something ostentatious, like with lots of sequins and beading and stuff on it, people would maybe actually look at you as one, you're not modest, but modest in the sense that you're trying to get too much attention, which is not a good look. And then two, you maybe would be frivolous in running a household. People wanna see that you're economical in your choices. So when we say she has these characters, the character in Persuasion is similar, where she's this elder sister has sense and modesty. It's meant to convey a bunch of things that are societally acceptable, which is intelligent, not overly expressive, is reserved restrained her emotions and also modest in the sense that they're not flagrant with spending money that you're supposed to be constantly finding different ways to emulate that you would be like strong partner to run your household and you're not going to have expensive stupid tastes that are frivolous and you're going to be like a wise person that this other person can rely on. You have a good head on your shoulders. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: I just feel like you can constantly see that if you've got this idea of a ideal wife in mind, that has kind of filtered out into the culture. And then people like Eleanor are constantly trying to find new ways to like express that. But I do appreciate that, Later, Marianne comes around to realizing that money does matter and that lack of money could actually sour a very passionate relationship and something to think about, know. Boy can it, yeah, yeah. Materialists, we're back. No, it's still, yes. Coco the soul destroyer: Boy, could it? Materialists. We don't which we don't agree with, but lives in our brain for all time. yes. okay, this is the this is the part where I like started to be like, guys, your your ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: sisters, your best friends. No one else is around. Why? There's this whole thing where Willoughby, you know, Willoughby. And Marianne have been like outriding carriages. He like ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: showed her the home he's supposed to inherit, which would imply that they're engaged to say that this this will one day this will all be yours to Simba or whatever. Such as yeah. ashby: Yeah, everything the light touches, right. Coco the soul destroyer: and he then like just leaves and all Eleanor and her mom They're like looking at Marianne and they're like, this bitch is d devastated. She's crying all over the place. And yet they're also like, Marianne's inclined to cry all over the place. So we can like maybe put it. It could be like ashby: Yes. Could be anything. Coco the soul destroyer: he just left and she's like upset that he's not there anymore for like fun times. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: so I just am like, but they don't ask her. They don't like ask her what's the status between the two of you, and they don't ask her for a period of time that is crazy to me. And I ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: understand that like. almost the novel hinges on that they don't know the status. So ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: if they did ask it would be it would break that. But I w it was borderline like I was like, I can't believe that they're not just gonna ask her. Yeah. ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so there's that scene where, you know, in both adaptations, it's like Willoughby essentially asks their mom if he can speak to Mary Ann, like, alone, and then if he can speak Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: to the mom after. And so they set aside that time, like, they all go to church and they let him have, a meeting with Mary Ann, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: and it's implied that he's gonna ask her formally to marry him. But then when they show up, it's a totally different scene than they expected where Willoughby's got his hat in his hands, Marianne is bawling. And then he's like, I'm sorry, guys, I have to go away on business. So, you know, I regret to inform you. And they're like, well, that's okay. Like, let us know when you're coming back. And he's like, I gotta say, I'm probably never coming back. And it just, takes everyone aback because he has been like hanging out at the cottage every single day, like in their living room, basically watching TV with them. Coco the soul destroyer: Like he's like the the boyfriend that's like on the couch eating the e eating everything from the fridge that you're like, the who when did this guy move in? Yeah. ashby: He's the boyfriend on the couch. That is so exactly it. Yes. And like, they've all come to really like, Eleanor is still a little skeptical of him, but they've all come to like embrace him. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: And like the way that they act is so overtly, like they're in love that it's like accepted that he's her lover. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: They only dance with each other at events. They only talk to each other. They're constantly like sharing novels and reading poetry at each other. Like it is so obvious, right? Coco the soul destroyer: Imagine being around it. It sounds so annoying. ashby: I met is so insufferable exactly. and the thing that I think is interesting is throughout the book, Eleanor is kind of makes, makes, the point that her mother and her sister are very similar in their temperament in that they're romantics who are like inclined to throw caution to the wind when it comes to matters of the heart and follow their passions. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. And and convince themselves of things that don't have like evidence yet. Uhhuh. ashby: Yeah, so Eleanor really is giving like eldest daughter who has to hold this shit together. Coco the soul destroyer: I wondered okay, I wanted to ask you, I do think Eleanor as a character has eldest daughter, but also like Eleanor takes on responsibility for everyone around her. Yeah, big overfunctioner. So I just didn't know if you had any thoughts on that. For no reason at all. ashby: Big over-functioner, big time. for sure, for sure. Yeah, no, she, but she also gets a lot out of that role though. It like lets Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: her shine in contrast to them, as that she keeps the wheels on the bus and she's like, someone has to have the level head around here, that kind of thing. But yeah, she casts her mother similarly as basically encouraging Marianne and like enabling it because her mother also has developed like a real, affection toward Willoughby and thinks that this is a great match and everything and it's like encouraging them to spend time together. Coco the soul destroyer: She's like posting the photos of them on Facebook, basically. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: Exactly, exactly. Like these two crazy kids going to the prom, you know what I mean? And Eleanor really sees this as like, you've gone too far. You know, this is risky. Coco the soul destroyer: Risk. Yeah. Yeah. Eleanor, because she is so sensible, ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: is like to some extent like Marianne wouldn't be like going off on cottage on like care carriage adventures with this guy if there wasn't an understanding between them. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: And so she is like some degree like trusting that there is. They like really ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: do assume that she's engaged to this guy. Something that that was is lacking from the Wikipedia, you know. Recap is that at some point during all these parties that John Middleton is throwing, they organize a picnic. And then Colonel Brandon, who was gonna org ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: run the picnic, like this excursion, is whisked away. You know, an urgent message arrives and he's gone. So he's been ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: gone out of the picture for just a minute now. but they're still at Barton College, Willoughby leaves, and so then when Edward Edward visits Barton College, he seems subdued. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Shortly afterwards, sisters Anne and Lucy Steele, vulgar cousins of Sir John Middleton's mother in law, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Mrs. Jennings, stay at Barton Park. While there, Lucy confides in Eleanor that she and Edward are secretly engaged for like five years, giving Eleanor ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: an insight into Lucy's jealous and calculating nature. So Lucy's been a little bit weird to Eleanor. ashby: Yeah, dude. Coco the soul destroyer: I would say I know we're gonna talk about the film adaptation, but I gotta say the Lucy in the Angley film is straight up spooky. I wrote spooky. And they ashby: Yeah, yeah, agreed, agree. Coco the soul destroyer: also kill off Anne in the they don't kill her off, but she just doesn't exist in the adaptation. But I enjoy the representation of Anne, who's like the dowdy, more awkward older sister to Lucy, who I think we're supposed to perceive as like pretty hot. Like Lucy is ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: beautiful. And Anne is just like runs her mouth, like ha does not have a filter. And she ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: plays a role in like the plot of the film. I mean the plot of the book ultimately. ashby: Anne is like, is the awkward person who like says the Coco the soul destroyer: Uh-huh. ashby: wrong thing and like you said, has no filter, honestly, clearly desperate for attention, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: But it's, I like to remember that all of this is through Eleanor's point of view. So these people Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: are like caricatures to her and they all represent qualities in people that she thinks are so deplorable, right? And I do think a little bit of this is like told through Eleanor's point of view, where she's like, how, the way that I am is so sensible. that everything that these people do has to be like turned up to 11 as like a little bit of a justification. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: Love that about Jane Austen's novel. She lets her main female protagonist have the really wrong judgment about. I mean, that's ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: a major part, that's the core driving force of Emma. Like that ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: that she's not kind of getting these things right. She's clueless. But ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: but also, you know, we see that in like Pride and Prejudice for sure. And then of course in this one, I wrote down in my notes, Eleanor's kind of a bitch. She reminds me of she reminds me of my husband. ashby: for sure. Coco the soul destroyer: 'Cause he too does not always like when people are like too loud or like Yeah. ashby: Yeah, like too much. Yeah, no, I do too. And it's, I know exactly that feeling though. some people when they're too much in a social setting, they kind of create a sense of subservience in the people around them where they all have to listen, laugh at the Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: joke. It can a little bit. Coco the soul destroyer: yeah. ashby: of an imposition to the people around them. But I got the sense that the older Miss Steele Anne was just super awkward and desperate to have attention on her. And then, but I think that what was lacking was like a little bit of empathy for their situation because they're even worse off than Eleanor and Marianne, which is they literally have to be good company, but they also, more than that, they really do have to actually flatter people because their station is so much lower. that they actually do have to constantly make an impression on people and be very grateful to be there. And even though Eleanor finds this tacky, essentially, That's kind of what's expected of them. Coco the soul destroyer: They're on they're there on the dime of other people. Like they at some ashby: Exactly. Coco the soul destroyer: point don't even have enough money to like leave, like when they want to leave. and and I think we get the impression also that that Anne is on her way to Spinsterville, Anne almost tries to get a rumor going that a guy's into her. ashby: Yes, exactly. Well, and that was one of the things I got from the podcast, too, is that Anne is an example of someone trying to use gossip to her advantage. She's trying to make it sound like there's this doctor in town that's really into her. And so she misses no opportunity in a lull of conversation to try to bring it up, to try to get the kind of teasing and stuff going that Mrs. Jennings and Sir Middleton do unwantedly to Eleanor. because she's trying to get it going Coco the soul destroyer: even be like, if I get this rumor going, the doctor will hear about it, people will talk to him about me, and then maybe we get married. Like there's a real like, can the rumor become a real thing? Which is I've watched enough reality TV show to say, yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: Yes, there's a real calculation there. it? She's manifesting. Yeah, dude, is manifesting this and she's like, because if she gets it going enough, then people will be like, well, there must be something that he did to make her think that. So it would only be proper for him to follow through with it and get married. So honestly, I understand. But there is a part that, Eleanor is talking about the Mistyles. And she basically says something kind of bitchy about how they're not educated. She's Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: kind of like, Lucy could actually maybe be okay to talk to. It's just that she's not educated at all. there's no empathy there for like what circumstances might lead her to not be educated. And later we learn that The way that Miss Steeles know Edward is that he was sent to their uncle's school where they all lived And we kind of goes back to what you were saying about Jane Austen having all these brothers that she doesn't write about because she doesn't have a relationship with them. That's a thing. Men got sent off to school. They would have schoolmates. They would have friendships and a social circle of people outside their families. But women did not always get that. So I'm not sure what kind of education that Miss Dashwood's had other than some kind like a governess or obviously they can read Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, but they like were edu they're like this is the curriculum of what young ladies know. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They like the one ashby: young ladies should know, but it became like a... Coco the soul destroyer: of them paints, one of them plays the piano. ashby: I couldn't help but be like, well, clearly they grew up around very educated people and no one thought that they should have access to that. or Coco the soul destroyer: yeah. ashby: maybe she's making us like that they weren't self-directed and that they like, they're not interested in learning. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, I think Eleanor's kind of like judgmental. Like she's but this this is kind of at this part where we're talking about how how the the the steals are a little overly flattering, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: or just kind of they're too they're people pleasy and it's it's it is icky to be around people, people ashby: Yeah, they're people pleasing. And it's icky. It's icky. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: pleasers. the Steels are kind of ingratiating themselves as they've been at Barton Park. And again, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: John Middleton like pumped to have these people around. Because he's like, more ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: young women. And then he John Middleton doesn't see young women as like distinct people with different personalities and tastes. So he's like, You young women are gonna love these young women, you young women are gonna love these young women, and really I mean your cousins. I mean, I have good cousins, but ashby: And who hasn't been in that scenario where like in your, when you're like, yes, when you're like, but when you're like 15 and have to go on some work barbecue with your parents and they're like, my coworker has also has a 15 year old daughter. You guys are going to love each other. And you're like, she's emo. I'm different. I don't, but they're like, force you to be together. Coco the soul destroyer: And you're like, we are from different planets. Yeah. Or it's like a g or it's like a teenage boy and they're like, You guys can hang out and you're like, No, we can't. We might die. ashby: Ew. Absolutely not. Exactly. So anyway, so they're all like being forced to hang out together Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: because they're all in the same situation where they're like guests of the Middletons and he wants all the young people to hang out together at like his house and make him make his place like the happening spot. Right. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes, and like have more excuses to throw big parties. ashby: So because Lady Middleton has to be there to host these people, she's brought her children, which are like barriers to her personality. And this is the Miss Steele's like doting on the children. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. And so this is this is just the the three year old daughter just gets a little hurt by like an like a non injury, but gets hurt in the way that a three year old does. Yes, ashby: And it just becomes very dramatic. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: so here you go. Mm-hmm. ashby: So it says, unfortunately in bestowing these embraces, a pin in her ladyship's headdress, slightly scratching the child's neck produced from this pattern of gentleness, such violent screams as could hardly be outdone by any creature professedly noisy. The mother's consternation was excessive, but it could not surpass the alarm of the Miss Steeles and everything was done by all three and so critical in emergency, which affection could suggest as likely to assuage the agonies of the little sufferer. She was... I know. Coco the soul destroyer: I love the little sufferer is so funny to me. ashby: She was seated in her mother's lap, covered with kisses. Her wound bathed in lavender water by one of the Miss Steeles who was on her knees to attend her and her mouth stuffed with sugar plums by the other. With such a reward for her tears, the child was too wise to cease crying. She still screamed and sobbed lustily, kicked her two brothers for offering to touch her and all their united soothing were ineffectual. Till Lady Middleton luckily remembering that in a scene of similar distress last week, some apricot marmalade had been successfully applied for a bruised temple. The same remedy was eagerly So yeah, they're just really going over the top to just be like, this poor baby with her little scratch. But mainly they're leaning into the fact that Lady Middleton spoils her children. Coco the soul destroyer: And we're like we're just from the point of view of this is where I say maybe Eleanor but also maybe Jane Austen of just sitting there being like, This nonsense Yeah. ashby: Mm-hmm. This is so much. Knock it off. Okay. Yeah, no. But she has multiple scenes about this and you really get Coco the soul destroyer: It's way too much. Uh-huh. ashby: a sense of her view of children as like this kind of annoying thing that happens to women that they become this like their only vehicle of personality. And she very much like looks down on that because obviously children have none of the things that Jane Austen slash Eleanor values, which is they have no restraint, they have no interests, they're uneducated, they make the whole party about themselves. Like there's nothing about children that she would at all find enjoyable or interesting. And she finds it like so kind of like sad that like when women have children, have to bring them to the parties and be like, look what I did. Coco the soul destroyer: Because this woman is twenty seven. She's ashby: I know. Coco the soul destroyer: Lady Middleton is not old. Like L ashby: Mm. Coco the soul destroyer: Lady Middleton and Eleanor, Eleanor's like twenty-one, maybe. I don't know. They're like peers. Like, you know, ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: they're not that different. and then we also have Mrs. Palmer, who's also quite young, who's who's basically I think Lady Middleton's sister, then, yes. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, she is. They're sisters. Coco the soul destroyer: So also and then Mrs. Palmer, who we haven't met yet, but like Mrs. Palmer is pregnant. And like the idea of mentioning pregnancy is so scandalous, they all have to pretend it doesn't exist, basically. ashby: I know that they all say she expects to be confined, which is very funny. Coco the soul destroyer: Sounds dark. Scary, yes. ashby: So yeah, it's, you know, but there Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: are other scenes about this where she's basically, there is another one where she basically begrudgingly admits that If you have a person as boring as Lady Middleton, they should always be required to bring a little kid with them when they visit because otherwise there's nothing else to talk about. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: that, and I actually think that that's kind of true. Like I do, I, kind of agree with that. There have absolutely been family gatherings where the little kids didn't come. And I've been like, it is pulling teeth to try to think, think of something to talk about. But I, that's what I've said. It's like, Coco the soul destroyer: They are they are a good like throw in the mix and mm-hmm. ashby: if you have like a four year old, you throw them in the mix. Everyone has something to talk about and it like makes the time go by so much faster. How tall the kids are and Coco the soul destroyer: at one point they're all like having a fight about like which which su son is taller than the other kid. ashby: there it's like, she does such a Coco the soul destroyer: And Marianne is like, I can't pretend to care about this. Like almost ashby: which I love. Coco the soul destroyer: word for word. ashby: And then Eleanor is masterfully noting the kinds of things that are going on, the conversational faux modesty and dominance that's happening, which is that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: the grandmothers take the side that each, of course, each of their grandchildren is the tallest. And then the mothers of the kids try to pretend that they don't think that their kid is the tallest. And it's politics, Coco the soul destroyer: Politics, baby. ashby: it's parlor room things that happened. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: yeah, but you also have to think about the fact these people didn't have TV or their phones. they literally had nothing else. They were all like all trapped with just each other in the countryside. Coco the soul destroyer: They just they just played cards or embroidered. Like and they had servants too. ashby: or played music, you have to imagine. Coco the soul destroyer: Like, I mean, I know they did there was some degree of work that was happening, ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: but like they all they are at leisure in a way that's so boring. This is like a thing I used to think about as a teenager, You're reading these books and then you're just like, so what is there to do in life except for like go to dinner? Like and then you're ashby: and read. Coco the soul destroyer: and now I'm forty, basically, and I'm like, this that's plenty. I don't ashby: That's basically it, yeah. No. Coco the soul destroyer: I don't really wanna do that much more. ashby: But you have to remember that they're 16, 17, 19 year olds in a room with 27 year old moms and 50 year old grandmothers, right? So Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: try to remember how it felt to be 17 and having to make adult conversation with adults. And it's just, God, it's so boring. It must just be taxing. You don't yet have enough of your prefrontal cortex to sit through things that are boring. it must just be exhausting. And yeah, so. Coco the soul destroyer: Hormones, you don't even have like, you know, you can't even watch a Heath Ledger movie, and be like, what a babe. You can't. Yeah. ashby: you got nothing. You got nothing. And so they've got books and sonnets and like Mozart, which used to get people crazy hot and bothered. then Coco the soul destroyer: They do love, they do love the books. I did enjoy my copy that has ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: like ref lots of information in it. And they would always give me like, this is what she means by referencing this author, etc. Like there's a lot of good shit in there. one of the favorite ashby: Mmm. That's so, that's so good. So yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: things that's in that one of those like bonus notes in this book is at one point John Middleton's trying to get a party together, as he always is. And then he's like, unfortunately we couldn't get like a good group together. So it's just gonna like the core group. Because it's moonlight. And I ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: was like, moonlight. well, people knew when the moon was gonna be full. And so they ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: made their social engagements for when the moon would be full because they could travel, because they could see. And ashby: Mmm. Coco the soul destroyer: I was just like, that's wild that they had to do ashby: That's so genius. Coco the soul destroyer: that. But then I was on vacation. I was in Tasmania. but we went to a national park. You know, it's that's where we're staying Look at the stars. More stars than you could ever possibly imagine. Like truly ashby: Amazing. Coco the soul destroyer: more stars to a point that it was scary. I was ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: holding on to my husband, like we're looking up, like, what the fuck? And I'm just like, I don't think that there I don't think enough is being written about the stars in books like this. That they ashby: Yeah, it's true. Coco the soul destroyer: they could see. It actually was enough light. could see a lot better. ashby: Yeah, I mean, if you didn't die of tuberculosis, you probably saw some banger nature in your lifetime. we'll get to that. Coco the soul destroyer: True. Or consumption, which we will get to. I'm sorry if we're taking too long on some of these pieces. so yeah, so anyway, Lucy Steele gives like a kind of creepy, I'm engaged to Edward. It's very like, it's a little bit like we're like like yes, yes. She's like everyone's ashby: It's veiled. It's very like, stay away from my man kind of thing. She's like making it known. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: kind of rumoring, he said nice things about you, bitch. ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: to Eleanor. So it is that, marking her territory. And at the same time as we're learning about this, we don't. distrust Lucy, but it does seem like is there another piece of the story? We're kind of confused. But ashby: because it doesn't seem like the Edward that she Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: knows, right? And so it is confusing. And I think that's also part of like what these books are about, which is about like the way that men can be completely unknowable to these women in the short time Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: that they know them. The women can take a lot from that, like read a lot into that. And then later you find out they're a totally different type of person and how destabilizing that must be that they can put on. a different whole different personality with you. And then like you find out they're engaged to somebody else. Like that must be so frustrating. Make you feel like you can't trust your surroundings or your assessment of people. When you thought that you like shared a connection with someone that must just be like so stressful. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. And one of the biggest indicators to us as the reader, having read up to this point that Lucy is telling the truth is because that Marianne is like, I keep trying to leave Eleanor and Edward together. he likes her, she likes him. Let me leave them al I'll be in the room and then I'll leave. And then she'll be like, every time I leave, I turn around and see that Edward is also leaving. So we now see that Edward is being a proper person where he's like, I'm engaged to someone else. I'm not going to stay in the room alone with one woman. it probably is true that they are engaged. so and then what happens next is Marianne is b in the background kind of heartbroken that Willoughby has like absconded with the we don't know where or why. But Mrs. Jennings invites the Elder Dashwood sisters to visit her in London. she basically says, You have to come with me. so they're at in London. Marianne writes some little letters to Willoughby. No one knows what's in them, but they go unanswered, and then they unexpectedly meet at a ball. And Willoughby, he's there with another woman and greets Marianne like very coldly. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and And later informs her that he's actually secretly engaged to a woman named Miss Gray, who's very w wealthy. Marianne is heartbroken but tells Eleanor that she and Willoughby were never truly engaged. ashby: Yeah. this is so interesting too about what you're saying. Cause like from a modern perspective, we read this and we're like, why has Marianne not shared this with her sister and her mother? Because she's just been so distraught over him being gone and so mopey about it that it leads them to believe that there's something serious going on. I don't know. There's something kind of indulgent about that, about letting everyone Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: assume that your relationship with someone was much more serious but there's a couple parts where they're basically like, they think it's like improper to directly ask that even from like a close family member, that would be invading their privacy in a way. would be like reading their diary. It's like, if that was something they wanted to share with us, they would, but with everything we see from the outside, we're left to assume that there is some type of. understanding there, if that's not the case, then this man is like, totally not who we think he is because of the way he's been acting. And they just think that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: that is so out of the realm of possibility because this is a gentleman who runs in their circles that acting that way would just be so like, shameful that they can't imagine that that would be the case. Coco the soul destroyer: Like w they would say he's risking this girl's reputation. Like that's ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: what he's by the way he's behaving with her if he doesn't intend to be with her. ashby: And he's been on our couch eating our food. Like, surely he wouldn't risk her reputation and be so close with the family. surely we would know that. you know, that's also like how people say serial killers are charming. You know what I mean? It's like, it really catches people off guard. Coco the soul destroyer: We're it does and it continues to to this day, but like we at least have the language to be like, he's a fuckboy. Like he just yeah, he's done this to other ladies too. So ashby: Yeah, I know, he's a f***boy. He's just charismatic like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Colonel Brandon reveals to Eleanor, he's Colonel Brandon is like always trying to suss out like, is Marianne engaged or not engaged? Because like I'm still interested in Mary Ann, So he reveals to Eleanor that Willoughby had earlier seduced and abandoned Brandon's teenage ward, Eliza. they say seduced, but like so she was pregnant with a child. and so Willoughby's cousin has disinherited him. So that's why Willoughby is like hard up for money. Like he's in debt, he's had some level of inheritance taken away from him, and s ashby: because of his improper behavior, it got, yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: Because he a was badly acting, yeah. ashby: it got back to his relative that he stood to inherit from that he had left this woman pregnant and destitute of like a respectable man like Colonel Brandon. And then she was like, you're disinherited if you're not gonna do right by this woman. And so now he's like in London hunting for his next mark, like a real con man, you know? Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, he's like this is how he operates. Like and ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: he doesn't, you know, take in the consequences of his actions, really. ashby: Mm-mm. Coco the soul destroyer: but what do you think about Brandon's telling of this tale, of his backstory? ashby: gosh, I think it's so fascinating and the way that they portray it also. Coco the soul destroyer: I and I don't have a description of it, so maybe give the listener a little insight. ashby: So, so, so it becomes like, eventually it kind of gets out that like Willoughby has broken Mary Ann's heart. And we also never really learned why Colonel Brandon had to like crazily abandon this picnic, right? And so there's this moment where they're all in London, you know, enjoying the London season or whatever. And Colonel Brandon has been in London and he comes over to the house where they're staying. And he just wants to talk to Eleanor because Mary Ann's been just like absolutely laid up with grief. over Willoughby publicly dumping her. Coco the soul destroyer: Colonel Brandon enters her room and Marianne's like turns around. Like she's like, I don't I'm not interested in this. And Eleanor ashby: I know, it's so sad. Coco the soul destroyer: and Eleanor and Brandon have like a friendship. Like they kind of they have sort of similar yeah, yeah. ashby: They have like a mutual respect for each other. And they both like, I think they're both the reserved person that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: appreciates the like lively extroverted family Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: member or friend or whatever that they have in common. And so he basically comes in and he's like, look, I didn't want to tell you this. I'm sure you've heard some gossip about my quote unquote love child, Eliza, but he explains that the backstory is that He was actually in love with Eliza's mom who was a Eliza senior who was the Was like the adopted Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're both alive. So that was confusing to me, but ashby: ward of his father but that for family reasons She was made to marry his older brother and that was a disastrous marriage that did not go well He didn't appreciate her. Yeah, it didn't go well Coco the soul destroyer: I think like abusive. Yeah. ashby: He didn't appreciate her and then they got divorced and in that process she was sort of like passed around from man to man basically, she fell from society and has an illegitimate daughter, Eliza. So she dies of like consumption or something and leaves her daughter, Eliza Jr. to Colonel Brandon to take care of. So he has adopted this girl as his ward and because he's a old veteran man he entrusts her care to this like family friend who also has girls that are staying with them. And then Willoughby somehow meets up with this family at some point and seduces these Coco the soul destroyer: He's like teenagers. ashby: teenagers like Eliza and leaves her. And Coco the soul destroyer: And Willoughby's in his twenties, but like still. ashby: so she disappears. so Colonel Brandon is obviously distraught. And then when he gets the message, the urgent message, it's been him looking for her for months, it's that she's been found, she's in like a hospital type thing, and she's on the verge of giving birth. And so he exits the party immediately and we haven't heard from him since then. Okay. So now he shows up and it's like, let's get an explanation here. And he learned this situation of Willoughby jilting Marianne publicly. And so he shares his backstory with Willoughby. Now after taking care of Eliza and making sure she was safely delivered of child, she's probably has to go live somewhere else. Like, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, like it's not that this man then is like taking her back into life. I don't know. ashby: No, no, she'll be sequestered somewhere. The kid will probably go to school or whatever, but she's, yeah, it's not great. She basically cannot remarry essentially. So she's going to have to live off of someone else for a while. Coco the soul destroyer: She should move to America. ashby: Well, I don't know. Honestly, the way that's gone. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. is I thought it there's a moment though where Brandon's describing this story of of his love, his like sort of teenage ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: love, and he was sent away into the military basically also as an effort to split them up and that the the girl's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: married to the older brother. and then he comes back and he finds his his love in like on her deathbed, but ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: he's like A after learning of how ruined she was, I was glad she was dying of consumption. Sometimes you read things and you're like, the values of this are wild. ashby: pick up on that. What I did pick up on was his like reticence to even share anything with Eleanor because it's almost like even talking about things this delicate of people's reputation Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: and their real vulnerable feelings for people is almost seen as rude. It's almost like trauma dumping. It's like, I hate Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: to burden you with literally hearing how nasty the world can be because people people's Coco the soul destroyer: yeah. ashby: people I actually did think women's sensibilities were quite fragile and that they shouldn't know certain things because it's like bad for them to hear ugliness essentially that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: this would be too much for her. So he's like very, he takes various moments to just pause and breathe because it's so hard for him to even talk about this thing. Yeah. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And he's like, Can I share this with you? Because it might help your suffering and like your sister's suffering that having been jilted by this man, you should know who this guy is. Is like ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: really the impetus to tell it. And then you also get an understanding of like why he's so attracted to Marianne is cause she really reminds him of this this woman who died. Like ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: that they had a similar like joie de vive or whatever. ashby: Yeah, and that it's a type of person that a person like Willoughby gets tangled up in their web. So there is still some of that cautionary tale to it where Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: if you are like an Eleanor and you only like fuddy-duddies, this would never happen to you. But if you're going to be a flagrant person that likes sonnets and shit, this is going to be the type of CAD that you fall for. Who's going to do you wrong? Coco the soul destroyer: If you're Jenna Maloney in the two thousand and five film, this is you're gonna be swept away by ashby: this is gonna be so. Coco the soul destroyer: a a a hot soldier. ashby: So yeah, but I think what's interesting is that it's just glossed over, but basically he confronts Willoughby about the situation he's put his ward in and they have to have a duel. They do a duel Coco the soul destroyer: They do a do a duel. ashby: and they never really go much more into it. He basically tells Eleanor, neither of us were hurt. So wasn't really worth mentioning, but, but like how fascinating because all these people are neighbors, you know, like. Just the gall that someone like Willoughby has to run around with some woman. Coco the soul destroyer: And then Willoughby's like, I I don't know why Colonel Brandon's such a boring ass motherfucker. Like he slept with yeah ashby: He talks so much shit about him. So I felt like the telling of it is the biggest thing I took from it was him being so reticent to share the gory details because it's sort of so salacious. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: And then he sort of impresses upon her. You'll know what's most appropriate to share with Marianne about this so that edit the story as you see fit so that it doesn't overwhelm her with what the whiplash would feel like of thinking that you had a real lovey boyfriend who then turns out to be kind of a serial monster predator. That he's like figure Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: out a way to break this to her that she got played by a player, but you know, don't tell her so much that she like is overwhelmed by that. So yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to derail us too much, but it is a thing I've thought about a lot when reading Jane Austen novels, particularly in persuasion. There's a lot of stuff about the military. Colonel Brandon comes back as this very respected person. People are like excited that he has had these like worldly experiences. And the thing I think about is like this is some bru there's like some brutal imperialist stuff going on. Like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: the whole thing is you go in the military and then you become really rich from colonialism. ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: in my thinking about like adaptations or like what would I love to see like in future tellings of these stories is like a mixing in of that. how did these people earn their wealth? you know, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: it just the it doesn't have to take away the reasons that we enjoy the stories that are these women-centered stories, like truly, but there is an element that's like The guys are treated as really honorable and proper and maybe they are, but maybe they've done crimes against humanity. ashby: And I think it goes to show that that's literally all part of the social fabric of the propriety is the whole Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, it is. ashby: look of an honorable man is someone who like goes to war or has a high up post with the government who is Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: totally silent about it. Like that's what makes a is that he doesn't Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: talk about his experiences in the war. He's not a braggart or anything like that, like being a kind of strong, silent type. So there is constant incentive to to shield people of these uglier parts of how their society functions. And Coco the soul destroyer: Imperialism. Mm-hmm. ashby: it's on purpose. Like it's so vulgar, you know, to talk about stuff like that, that they don't. And because of that, they probably also don't think about it that much. Like I think he's Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, I'm definitely not. Yeah. ashby: probably able to like separate from his mind, whatever he was doing in the tea fields. Like I'm sure he's able to just cast that out and just be like, thems was the orders. Coco the soul destroyer: they there's kind of like a mate a guess that he could be based off of this one guy. Yeah, and that ashby: this one guy, Hamilton, yeah, from her real life, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: yeah, and they're like, I read some stuff about that guy, and I was like and then they're like, and then he like was a witness to the Bengal famine where millions of people died ashby: Yeah, yeah, don't think, probably not, like there's an, Coco the soul destroyer: Just it's just in the background for me. ashby: there's just an effort in this society for everyone to keep all this stuff hush hush. And it's like, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: it's like encouraged and it's not only encouraged, it's like lauded is like the more you're able to separate yourself from that, like the cleaner and the more of a gentleman or the more of like the upper society you are. the less you're able to acknowledge the problems in society. And then again, that's another way that I think Eleanor's low-key classist is that she really does think people who are able to suppress all of the uglier things about life are better people, that they have quote more sense. Coco the soul destroyer: In Pride and Prejudice. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: The the story of, Elizabeth Bennett's like best friend is kind of like the the maid or like the the governess of the house to some ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: extent. and it's like her best friend who's maybe ashby: Charlotte? Coco the soul destroyer: like a t yes, Charlotte, thank you, who's maybe like a tiny bit older. And that, you know, Elizabeth Bennett receives this marriage proposal from the ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Pastor cousin, Mr. Mr. Collins, ashby: Collins. Coco the soul destroyer: who's an embarrassing creature, right? Like who is just a not not someone lovely. ashby: Yeah. Also based on a real person. Coco the soul destroyer: Love that. Also, again, if you were in Jane Austen's life, would you read these novels and be like, bitch, that's me? ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would suck. Coco the soul destroyer: But but rarely would it be complimentary. ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: But then like, Charlotte does marry Mr. Collins and they have like a conflict that's like How could you marry this like dork? And then ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: like she's she's like, This is a nice life for me. Like we ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: can't they have it out. it's a it's a beautiful little instance of people addressing the thing of being like, We can't all have these big romances. But you do see that Charlotte and Mr. Collins build a nice life together. Like they kind ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: of find a rhythm that's right for them. ashby: Yeah, so no, but she there's a there's like a purity testing there. That's like you need to Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: somehow have the best of all the worlds. You need to find someone rich and you really vibe with at the same time and sure, but that's a real want to have your cake and eat it too attitude and you can easily end up 40 years old and not married that way. Like if you're going to hold out for that, but for some of these women, they're like, I'll build a type of love with someone and it's enough for me to not starve Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: to death and and Coco the soul destroyer: And as Marianne famously said, a woman of t seven and twenty could never attract a man. Most of us don't even know how to do our eyebrows when we're twenty seven. That does take until you're thirty seven at least. ashby: It takes a while. Yeah, so, okay, so that's the scene with Colonel Brandon basically sharing. And there's something like the role of gossip here where Colonel Brandon is trying Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: to be discreet. He is not, he has had many opportunities, I think, to sort of show his distaste for Willoughby. It's clear he's not been a fan of him over time, but I think people have chalked that up to a sort of rivalry for Mary Ann. But he has Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: not liked this type of guy at all. And now he Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: has like real reason for it. I kind of think it's interesting that he doesn't take this opportunity to like more ruin this dude's reputation more publicly, but he chooses it's supposed to be a mark on him that he's choosing to very discreetly only share it with the people for whom it needs to be shared with. Yes. To not be a big gossip about it. And it's probably Coco the soul destroyer: He's only sharing with Eleanor, who's trustworthy, to not gossip. yes. ashby: also in part to protect Eliza to not sharing her business all over town while she's recovering. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ashby: it, it's clear that, he comes out looking like a really upstanding person for choosing to very selectively share this with Eleanor Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. Now ashby: to help Mary Ann. Coco the soul destroyer: I do want to just quickly talk about there's this other cast of characters. There we're ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: you know, we're in this is London now, but there's the same people roaming around. ashby: the society. Coco the soul destroyer: So they yes, they bump into the brother, at a store. ashby: Mm-hmm. John and Fanny. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. and the brother is like, I meant to come see you. ashby: Yeah, but you just don't understand when you come into town, have so much business to do and like my wife, you know, she needs me to do this, this, this, and this. Yeah. He's so full of it. Coco the soul destroyer: So I just th thought this this this little passage about how he views his sisters is funny. I this is just for comedy's sake. ashby: Yeah, true. So he says, but my dear Eleanor, what is the matter with Marianne? She looks very unwell and has lost her color and has grown quite thin. Is she ill? And Eleanor says she's not well. She's had a nervous complaint on her for several weeks. And he says, I'm sorry for that. At her time of life, anything of an illness destroys the bloom forever. Hers has been a very short one. And she was as handsome a girl last September as any I ever saw and is likely to attract the men. There was something in her style of beauty to please them particularly. I remember Fanny used to say that she would marry sooner and better than you did. Not but what she is exceedingly fond of you, but so it happened to Stryker. She will be mistaken however. I question whether Maryann now will marry a man worth more than five or 600 a year at utmost. And I'm very much deceived if you do not do better. Yeah, he just does not. He is so fucking rude. Coco the soul destroyer: Read the fucking room first of all. He just he's literally like treating them like they're cows. Yes. ashby: Yes, with auction prices. Like he truly does not talk to them like they're people at all. Like they're just sort of Coco the soul destroyer: No, no, no, no, no, no. ashby: like, they're sort of problems to be solved with like a price tag on how much they're worth, Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. ashby: which is a huge bummer. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And just being like if a if a girl gets like a little sick for when she's seventeen, she's ruined forever. ashby: She's done, you know? But probably at that time, like you really might've just straight up died or been disfigured by smallpox or some shit like. Coco the soul destroyer: It is true and I have to keep that in mind because my my complaint about this book is that the illness parts are too dramatic. But it is like that Jane Austen died at forty one from an ill like people died from the flu, you know, like it yeah, we're this is real. ashby: Like, no, people died all the time. Well, and another huge bummer from the podcast I listened to is like, not for nothing. Jane Austen would have known a lot of women that died in childbirth because there was no germ theory. And like, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: that's horrifying to think about, but like all these women, basically, maybe in their mind, their lives are quite short. And there's just this pressure to experience something of like love and passion Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: when you're like 17 to 22 because after that like you really might not make it either because of illness or because of childbirth like Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: So I can kind of imagine that if your life is super truncated like that You're just like hoping to have some type of arc to it that you've like felt something in that time that was afforded you Yeah Coco the soul destroyer: a hundred percent. Yeah. Well, and just before I move on from shitting on people, like the the Middletons, I did enjoy this part where it's basically because they're all in London, Lady ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Middleton meets Mrs. John Dashwood. So Fanny, Fanny Dashwood, ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: so that's who they mean. And it says, Lady Middleton was equally pleased with Mrs. Dashwood. There was a kind of cold hearted selfishness on both ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: sides, which mutually attracted them, and they sympathized with each other in an insipid propriety of demeanor. And a general want of understanding. And I just wrote L O L of Real Housewives. ashby: I know, I loved that. It's so great because it's clear that Eleanor has like, there's a type of woman that sucks and she's like, and when they find each other, they love it. And yeah, and we'll meet these other characters too, but she has some great reads on the Palmers as well. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. And okay, I actually I I don't have any more excerpts from the book because parts of it the end part is like plot plot plot, But let's go through kind of what happens. but I do want to talk about the polymers. So, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: meanwhile, where are we? Okay, so we've learned the story from Colonel Brandon, you know, Marianne's getting over Willoughby sort of. Meanwhile, the Steele sisters have come to London and are invited to stay with John and Fanny Dashwood. Basically Fanny is like, I don't wanna host your sisters, but let's host these other ladies. ashby: Yeah, basically she like decides that there are more worthwhile charity case and that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: she and Fanny just like straight up doesn't like the sisters and she is like, well, they'll understand that the steals, you know, they need our kind of patronage right now. And we can always visit with your sisters anytime. And it's to kind of like make up for. the fact that they didn't do the very normal proprietary thing, which is to call on his sisters immediately when they got there and also offer to host them because they're the closer relative. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: Fanny finds so many great ways to just be like, I don't like these people. I'm gonna find a way to excuse myself Coco the soul destroyer: It's a it's ashby: for them. Coco the soul destroyer: I think it even goes beyond not liking them. I think that they're threatening because ashby: yeah! Coco the soul destroyer: she knows that Eleanor and Edward kind of like vibe with each other and she's like, ashby: that's true. Coco the soul destroyer: I don't want my brother to marry this woman. and they're constant reminders that they like haven't done their duty of like giving them the money. so yes, ashby: It's true. Coco the soul destroyer: she's smart. Fanny's not wrong. And I think that's a thing we see in the book is the ashby: No, but that's what I mean. Fanny is good at deceiving herself. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: people who behave badly like get away with it. ashby: yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: so based off of the Fanny Dashwoods like cordiality, Anne mistakenly believes that the Farers have become fond enough of Lucy to welcome her into the family, even though it's like really hosting the Steels is just a way to avoid hosting the Dashwoods. and so Anne, the elder sister that's you know kind of socially awkward and talks too much and says the wrong thing, reveals Lucy's engagement to engagement to Edward, to basically their mother, who's this kind of ominous figure that we don't meet directly, or maybe we do very briefly. but she's she's like the stern mother that's going to be in charge of the allocation of inheritance. so as a result, the Steels are dismissed from the house and Edward's wealthy mother orders him to break off the engagement. Edward refuses because he's an honorable character. He is disinherited in favored of his younger brother. On learning this, Colonel Brandon shows his admiration for Edward's honorable conduct by offering him the nearby parsonage, you know, on his estate, allowing him and Lucy to marry after he's ordained. So Edward has like no prospects, no income. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Essentially, he won one one thing I have a question about is that Edward is like the most socially like he's socially uncomfortable, he's shy, and he's like, I just would love to be like a pastor, basically. ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And I'm like, a role that involves speaking constantly and then being involved in the whole community. ashby: Yep, yep, yep. Coco the soul destroyer: and then so from there, Mrs. Jenning takes the Dashwood sister, sisters to visit her second daughter, basically Mrs. Palmer. but Marianne, like, once again, gotta go walking in the rain. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and she can contracts putrid fever, is what Wikipedia is saying. I hadn't heard that. Putrid fever. and so Marianne's like basically seems like she's going to die. So Eleanor's like, I need my mom, we need to bring her here. Colonel Brandon, the hero, who's just been accompanying them. and I guess there's an element of like logistics that are a part of this, like ashby: Mm-hmm Coco the soul destroyer: who has carriages, who has horses, like all this stuff. ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: And so Colonel Brandon like fetches the mom. It's like a kind of a heroic act. and maybe I'll pause there. Anything you would like to I didn't pull any excerpts, but ashby: Yeah, let's introduce the Palmers. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, tell me about the Palmers. Tell about your feelings about the Palmers. ashby: So the Palmer's are brought in as this other kind of like, this other societal couple, right? And so the Palmer's are Lady Middleton's sister Charlotte, who's married Mr. Palmer. So they are both Miss Jennings daughters. so, yeah, they've kind of been, yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: And we've kind of known them all along. They've kind of been yeah. ashby: they've kind of been there. So one of my favorite parts of the book is when she's describing Mrs. Palmer, who is sort of like, Lady Middleton in that she doesn't have anything of substance to say, but she is generally more amiable. She's like a much more friendly, outgoing person. Coco the soul destroyer: She's more like her mom. ashby: Yeah, she's very much more like her mom. And but she is that classic thing of like the outgoing, talkative woman who's married to the sort of dour, silent man. And so there's all these scenes where Charlotte's just running off at the mouth and then she like turns to Mr. Palmer and she's like, what do you think, Mr. Palmer? And he's like, no thank you and she's like he's so droll and so there are so many of those great scenes and yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: She just keeps saying he's droll and you're reading it and you're like, he not droll. ashby: No, no, no. He also is Coco the soul destroyer: He hates his life. ashby: setting out some cutting remarks. there's a place where Eleanor's kind of got to read on these people too, because she's very cutting in that way. And she's basically, there's this great section where she's like, for whatever reason, it was pretty clear that Mr. Palmer had just found himself married to a very silly woman. And that just made me laugh so hard. And I read it to husband, because I was like, See, do you see how that is? Just sometimes you find yourself married to a very silly woman. you know, it's, can imagine how that went down to of just like Mrs. Jennings, really making Charlotte very appealing to him because he, you know, is some. Coco the soul destroyer: we get the impression that Mr. Palmer likes to look at a cute lady. He's like ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: checking out Marianne. Like he is checking out people. And so I think we get the impr it's not I think in the book we get the impression that like Mrs. Palmer's pretty and Lady Middleton's pretty. And so we're like, he married her because she was hot. ashby: yeah, yeah, yeah. It said, it said it's like, because for some reason, silliness is associated with hotness. That's basically what Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: she says. It's like, it just happens to be that way. You know, sometimes. Coco the soul destroyer: It's the it's the old the old school version of the crazy hot scale. ashby: Yes, basically. she's like talkative and this bubbly personality that's around. But Eleanor doesn't really consider her like a person of, you know, substance or whatever. Mr. Palmer, she basically has a read on him where she's like, his whole thing is just that he wants to be important. Like he wants people to esteem him. And so Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: It's like honestly too boring to even recount a person with a personality like this, cause it's just so obvious that they think they're the most important person in the room and they're just, act better than them. But he's also like a high breeding of some, somehow something like that. Coco the soul destroyer: He's like a politician of some sort. Yeah, uh-huh. ashby: So she just kind of dismisses him right away. But then when Marianne gets sick, they're actually staying, they're on their way back home to Devonshire and they decide to stay for a little bit at, the Palmer's house and A little bit is made of the fact that the Palmer's house is quite close to Willoughby's home Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: estate. And in the TV show, it's made more clear that basically Marianne goes out walking in the rain to look at the house that she lost because she's still pining over Willoughby. And that in that process makes herself quite sick. So very dramatic teenage girl thing to do is just like, I'm gonna go wandering in the rain. Coco the soul destroyer: It's like I'm gonna go push the bruise one more time. Kinda uhhuh. ashby: I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna go just wander in the rain and just pass out in front of his house. Like, ugh, girl, so desperate, gross. And then they're looking for her and Colonel Brandon, of course, finds her and heroically brings her back to the house. And then in bringing the doctor there, they're basically like, this fever is contagious. So because the Palmer's have just had a baby, they exit the building and they leave everything in. in the care of Miss Jennings, who's the mother-in-law, and Colonel Brandon, who's been traveling with them. And this is a really nice moment in the book where Mrs. Jennings is really caring for Marianne quite well and showing a different side of herself. And Eleanor comes around to Mrs. Jennings and realizes Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: that she actually does have a good heart. She just is a bored... widow who likes to have some fun with matchmaking, but that she is like actually a good person who does care about their wellbeing. And her and Marianne both kind of soften on Miss Jennings. And I really, I really liked that. I really liked that part of the story because it showed some like growth in Eleanor's kind of, I've, I Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: put this person in a category and they're this way. She learns to see other sides of people. And I was really distressed that like it's left out of basically both adaptations that I watched. They like omit this whole thing. And it's like one of my favorite parts of the book and I was like so bummed. So I really hope they keep that in the upcoming Sense and Sensibility. Coco the soul destroyer: Me too. And I think that that is the we'll get to the adaptation, but like there are a lot of things that you're like, the nuance part is the part that makes it good. Like that's that's ashby: Yeah, it's what makes it good, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: that's and sometimes it gets left out. so what I before I wanted to have your reaction to that before I said the next part. So then like Willoughby arrives. ashby: while Marianne's like very sick, yeah. She's out of the woods, but she's still in bed and sick, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: She's ill. She's like she's, you know, she she's she's in bed and she's she's has a fever and everything. She's not really with it. and tells Eleanor that he genuinely loved Marianne, but like because of the financial circumstances, basically couldn't marry her. And then he's like, This new woman that I married, we're never gonna be happy together. and then in the Wikipedia description, it says However, the callous way he talks about Eliza and his wife lessens Eleanor's pity for him. I would just say like this part is interesting. I could see why maybe audiences would want it to be included. I was a little bit like, I don't need to hear any more from Willoughby. ashby: Mm. Yeah, they also omitted this in one of the adaptations and I thought it was strange. it's omitted and it is kind of odd because I think what this does is remembering that this is like, Jane Austen is a teenager writing this and Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: that this is her first novel. it does give that closure that you weren't crazy. The person did actually have feelings for you. But in real life, when you've lived a while, you know you don't always get this thing where the person is actually sorry for what they did. They actually do recognize that they made a mistake. So I think it's a nice closure for the reader. It's a little bit of an indulgence. It's a beach read. It's a romance tale. So it adds something there in the sense that, one, he acknowledges that he did actually have feelings for Marianne, so he wasn't like, quote unquote acting, but he also acknowledges that he was just kind of playing around and that he developed the feelings for her, but he wasn't really ever that serious to begin with. you know, the thing that's later like implied is that if he had actually just been honest about his feelings for Marianne, he may not have been disinherited, which is crazy because he should have been disinherited because of the situation with Eliza. But, you know, apparently his relative had learned of his courtship of Mary Anne. And like if he had just stood by it the way that our our foil Edward had done, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: he might have been rewarded by the family member that he stood to inherit from. But instead, you know, he figured, well, that door's closed and he went chasing another one. And it's also kind of implied again that a person with this type of personality is prone to other kinds of like profligacy. So he's in debt because he's the kind of he overspends, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, he overspends. Uh-huh. ashby: he over shares, like over, he over emotes. Like he's a person who's like too out there. He's too much. And he, it has come back to bite him in the ass, you know? that he has like sewed his wild oats a little too much, both in the gambling halls and like with the women. And now he's had to reap what he sowed, which is that he's in a lot of debt. He's not very respected. So he's got to marry someone that he doesn't really like and just be like punished because he needs that money. And I don't know. I think it's a kind of weird thing, but it is very much like a teenage girl's idea of poetic justice to have, to have your Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. I and they they ashby: boyfriend end up with a shitty rich woman that he thought he would like as like lifelong punishment and he can never forgive Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, ashby: you. Coco the soul destroyer: that we do get that out of it, but I think like and I think there's like an element that's like, well, sometimes it's like, well, Jane Austen also doesn't want us to think our characters are like dumb. And so we have to protect that Marianne wasn't being tricked. And I think a more compelling part of it is that it he was just a fuckboy. Like I think that's like the real version of this guy is just like the fuckboy version and doesn't come back with remorse. But I do like that he does get called out in that interaction with Eleanor that ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: she's like You only feel sorry about this because of how it impacts you, really. Like she does she ashby: It's true though, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: does kinda call him out on that. That is like you are just a deeply selfish person, really. Mm-hmm. ashby: Mm-hmm. And he's, and the thing that's so strange is that he's, He goes up in the middle of the night and he like has this conversation with her. It's already like improper. Like he's already doing too much. The whole thing is super improper, Coco the soul destroyer: it's definitely improper. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: but like he's not really there to like profess his love or anything. He just like sort of heard that Mary Ann was sick and felt like. He needed to go by there. So it's another way of him kind of just inserting himself. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: It's impulsive, like you actually like you're the one person who shouldn't be here. Mm-hmm. You ashby: Yeah, no, you're just gonna make this like way worse, you know, you giving... Coco the soul destroyer: can't also like give her this romantic sign that you showed up, you know? ashby: what's that Taylor, the Taylor Swift lyric where it's like, casually cruel in the name of being honest. Yeah, he's like, he's like, he wants to be honest about his feelings, but really he needs to like exit the scene and like let this woman heal from him. So it is a Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. ashby: real question of is this guy actually helping or hurting? But it just goes to show that he doesn't care. He's honestly just about him, himself. Even when he thinks he's being. about someone else, it's really about unburdening himself and Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: wanting people to know that in fact, he just did all this for the money and that if it weren't for that unfortunate circumstance, he might've married Mary Ann. And he tried to make it sound like the situation with Eliza was more complex. He's like, you just take Colonel Brandon's word for it, do you? He's like, can you just imagine that even if I'm a cad, that maybe she wasn't an angel, which is very victim-blamey. Coco the soul destroyer: You ruined her life. And this is another ashby: Very shitty. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: thing that like I think what came up in the podcast that you recommended. Yeah, ashby: It's like the consequences are so different. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: it's like there is even Colonel Brandon, like the whole world thinks Eliza is his child, and they're fine with it. Like he's a ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: respectable man, that he's an eligible bachelor. They're like, he's the most eligible bachelor. ashby: No big deal. Coco the soul destroyer: And but if a woman has a child, she's ruined forever. So yeah, I mean, the patriarchy sucks. ashby: Totally ruined. Yeah. So it's crazy, but it sucks. So anyway, I think it was an, I think the scene of Willoughby is just, it's an indulgent scene for Jane to put it in her first book. But I think in real life, when you've lived a little while, you don't get this, but you like to imagine it in your most spiteful moments. Coco the soul destroyer: Like I guess even maybe I have some of my own little things I hold on to that are related to those types of parts of your life from when you ashby: Yeah. That impulse, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: were younger. and dealing with the opposite sex. All right, so then again, this is a long part of the book, but I am breezing through it and I so Marianne recovers and Marianne's like d deathly ill. And then it takes her a while to recover. and along the process, she like learns of Eleanor's own silent heartache. She kind of learns that like Lucy's engaged to Edward. She learns ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: that Eleanor really did love Edward, like that this ashby: And she also learns that Eleanor has known all this time that while it seemed Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: like Edward was into her, he was actually secretly engaged. And so that by coming by and even being morose at their cottage and continuing to see them in London and stuff and friendship was a little bit much. And so she's been having to endure seeing Edward, but also knowing and him not knowing that she knows that he's actually secretly engaged too. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: Lucy Steele and having to endure all the comments and stuff that Lucy Steele would make because essentially Lucy Steele immediately burdened Eleanor with this knowledge that was a secret. And she was like, if you tell anyone, you'll ruin me forever. How does that feel? And you'll ruin Edward's reputation. So Eleanor has had to be silent. Yeah, Eleanor has had to be the silent. Coco the soul destroyer: Lucy's a snake in the grass, as they'd say on a Bravo reunion. I mean, she's also kind of not, like also a little bit justice for Lucy. She's like this other woman's coming around my man. But yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: I know, I know she's like back off. Yeah, so you understand that from Marianne's point of view, that is like a fate worse than death is like being told by your rival that actually you're engaged and like, you can't tell anyone or you'll ruin everyone's reputation. And then just being subjected to constant comments about it every time you're all together. And essentially Eleanor's being used as a, as a like a foil. So that at all of these dinners and stuff where Mrs. Jennings and people would tease Eleanor about, we've heard you have a thing from somebody, Mr. Mr. Ferrer's, like teasing and all of that, all lets Lucy get under the radar. all of the time. Coco the soul destroyer: And Lucy's sitting next to Eleanor at so many of these i instances. Can you imagine? ashby: And playing on the fact that Fanny knows they were spending time together when he came to visit and... So Fanny has been intentionally trying to separate them and a little bit running down Eleanor to the mom and being like, this person is beneath him such that it's all making Lucy look better by comparison and letting her like distance herself Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: from this situation. So Eleanor says to Mary Ann, like, I've been enduring this. I've had all of the like teasing about it and none of the benefit because none of it's been confirmed to me by Edward. It's just been a suspicion while I've had to know this whole time he was engaged to someone else. And you do think that that like would really fucking suck and maybe Eleanor shouldn't have like a born it. So yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, that and I think that's part of the point of the novel too though, is like well both of you kept all this in and then Marianne ashby: That's maybe not healthy. Coco the soul destroyer: does like accuse she's like, Well, you're not even reacting to it strongly now and she's like, Yeah, 'cause I've known for like a year, almost not a year, but like a really long time. Six months, five months, something like that. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, yeah. But that really does like create for Marianne that really does like super humanize Eleanor to her where she realizes actually Eleanor feels deeply in her own way and that she has been enduring something in a way that Marianne could not. Meanwhile, Marianne has been like very publicly almost dramatically, just dramatically Coco the soul destroyer: Super drama she's been she's been like weeping and exiting rooms like for weeks. ashby: Yes, throwing herself on people, like making her grief like everyone's problem over a person that turned out to be quite ill. Yeah, like making people very worried. Yeah, yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: And physically making herself ill. Like, you know, I know like not to blame your s the victim, but but she doesn't eat, like, you know, yeah. ashby: like very worried about her because she wants to like express how much she feels without thinking that that could be an imposition on other people. so from her point of view, it's like, how could someone bear something like this so silently? And it does make her reflect on her actions because she thinks, if I could feel that way about someone I didn't really have an understanding with, that turned out to be a cat anyway, how it must be for my sister who like really did care about this person who might've really been deserving of her affection, who, has felt jilted in this other way. And then I think that one of the funniest things about, know, Maryann's convalescence is that she does the most teenager thing ever in saying to her sister, like, you know what, the way I acted was wrong. I should have acted more like you. I should have actually been, more aware of my conduct. And from now on, I'm going to be a different person. I'm just going to read books. I'm going to be very studious. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: She has like a schedule of the things she's gonna do and I was like, Girl, I have also said I'm gonna read for eight hours a day. Never happened. ashby: She's like, I'm not gonna be such a like, know, emotional, passionate person. I'm gonna be a much more reserved character from now on. And that is so teenage girl to just be like, I went through something, I learned a lesson, now I'm gonna change my entire personality. And I'd like to say that I've grown out of that, but I have not. I still do. Coco the soul destroyer: Okay, our final blurb here. Okay, after they after they return back home to their to their quaint little cottage, a family servant happens to encounter Lucy at a nearby market and brings back news that she is now Mrs. Ferrers. Edward shows up at the cottage and he reveals that Lucy had jilted him and married his now wealthy younger brother. so after being ordained, Edward marries Eleanor while Marianne later marries Colonel Brandon. And the two sisters now harmoniously live as neighbors, and that's the real dream. ashby: Okay, so real quick, one small in between thing that we missed. That's the final, yeah, part of the timeline. But Coco the soul destroyer: Yes. We d I just that's the that's just the end. But but yeah, we can talk about the whole thing now. ashby: one small thing that was missed is that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: after learning that, you know, that actually there was this secret engagement with Lucy this whole time, the mother of the Farrar, so Fanny's mom, Edward's mom, disinherits Edward and says, you've, you know, you're the eldest child, but you have embarrassed me by like being engaged to this woman of lower birth secretly. And I had higher ideas for your match. So now I'm going to give all of the inheritance to your younger brother, Robert, if you don't get rid of this woman right away. But Edward has decided that out of honor, he's not going to do that. He's like, Nope, the woman had an impression that I was in love with her. So I have to go through with it because, you know, that would ruin her reputation otherwise. So that's like a very honorable thing to do. But kind of what we realize is that similar to Willoughby, like, yes, he maybe did have this like crush, school crush on this girl because he went to go live at her uncle's school. Yeah, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. They were like younger, yeah. ashby: it's like when he was much younger, he's like, yeah, we had like, it was like my first crush basically, but she took it to mean, you know. were engaged and he felt like he never really got the balls to break it off essentially. So it's this secret engagement thing that they have going. But he had later, he had met Eleanor and he had like developed a real fondness for her. And I think a more mature type of affection developed, hence his moodiness all the time, which is like, he was frustrated that he cares about Eleanor and feels like she'd be a better match for him. personality wise, but he had already kind of like stepped in it by too young Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: promising himself to this. We get in a sense that Lucy kind of like takes things too far. Like that Edward was probably always shy and reserved and he probably did have a crush on the like pretty younger girl that's like hanging out on the farm with him, but that she, you know, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: He even says something along the lines of like, I didn't have anything to occupy me. Like it was like I it's like w yeah. ashby: Right, I was like bored. She was the one girl on the farm with me that my family sent me to to like go to school and you know she was like pretty and nice and I was like yeah this is fine but like he never there was never like a real I don't know it didn't seem like he had like a real respect for her it was just like he had a childhood crush on her. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: But because of his conduct because he decides to stand by it but even though he doesn't really care for her Colonel Brandon hears about this and knowing that Eleanor really respects Edward as like a family friend, he says, you know what, actually, heard he wants to go into the church. I have a church on my estate that he is welcome to be the pastor of. And that means essentially allotting him a living for the rest of his life. It was like to live there. Kind of house. Coco the soul destroyer: House. Yeah, like yeah. Uhhuh. ashby: So he offers it through Eleanor to Edward. basically, please, why don't you tell him? He's like, no, no, no, it's too awkward. He's, yeah. It's, yeah. So he's basically Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, Eleanor's like please don't make me say this. You he's too much yeah, like I don't know him and like it's a pride thing for dudes, so you gotta do it. ashby: like, if better for you to let him know that he's welcome to be the pastor at my estate. And as soon as the house is fixed up, he can move in and then. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: that would allow him and his wife to get married because they're going to be delayed for a long time until he's able to like find a parsonage or whatever, get ordained and then finally get married. so it's interesting. It's sort of like, because the family wouldn't reward him for being honorable, Colonel Brandon will reward him for being honorable because he sees this as like the ultimate act of gentlemanliness versus what Willoughby did. Coco the soul destroyer: Colonel Brandon says he has this he d he doesn't know about Eleanor and Edward, right? He sees a parallel to his own story of ashby: Yes, exactly. Coco the soul destroyer: these this this domineering person, you know, wealthy ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: family is trying to tear two young people that love each other apart because of station or whatever it is. And so ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: he doesn't like that because that happened to him like a little bit. so ashby: And then, yeah, and he thinks it's honorable that he won't cast her away, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: even though he stands to be disinherited. So he wants to reward that behavior from his own parsonage. So Eleanor tells Edward this, and it's a crazy, awkward-ass moment. So anyway, he's like, wow, that's so helpful. I appreciate you letting me know that from Colonel Brandon. That will certainly allow me and Lucy to be married right away. So that's the last thing Eleanor has heard from this dude is she's like, she gives him a job, house and permission to marry some other girl. Coco the soul destroyer: Edward is like Edward's like the only reason this would be is because Colonel Brandon and Eleanor have something going on. Because everyone ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: witness Eleanor and Colonel Brandon talk all the time. So ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: there's other people who are like, those if now that you know, if Marianne and Colonel Brandon aren't gonna be together, maybe Eleanor and Colonel Brandon will be together. Like everyone's always like matchmaking in their heads. And ashby: Yes, so. Coco the soul destroyer: you get the impression that he's like, Now there's nothing in between me marrying Lucy, like a little like bummered. Ooh. And I wasn't ashby: no, I thought it was gonna take a while. So when they all finally go back to Barton Cottage and Edward randomly shows up or when they have heard that news from the servant that Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: she's now Mrs. Farrer's, they obviously think, well, that's nice. He must have gotten ordained and the the personage is set up and they're gonna get married. And they're taking it, she's taking it pretty hard. She's really... sad to hear that it's really off the table and all of that. And remember that Eleanor hasn't had any closure. She's this whole time had in her mind, I thought Edward had a thing for me, but I just gave him a job and a house and permission to marry some other woman. So yes, that happened. Coco the soul destroyer: just gave him all the things he needed to make it happen. Yep. ashby: So when Edward shows up, they ask him, how's Mrs. Farrer's? And he's like, my mom, she's cool. And they're like, no, Mrs. Edward Farris. And he was like, surely you must mean my brother. So he explains to the family that in fact, after the mom gave all the money to the younger brother, Robert, that Lucy basically decided she'd rather marry Robert. And somehow she does. And this whole thing made no sense to me. Like I was reading through this and I was like, no, this makes no effing sense. But then they kind of later explain it with Robert has always been the favorite and that eventually the mom will come around because it's Robert, but that she was always much more conditional with Edward. And so he was like, yeah, because I was like, well, that makes no sense. Coco the soul destroyer: I don't get the impression even though that Lucy necessarily was a hundred percent like calculating about like the money. I think it was ashby: Same, same, I feel the same way. Coco the soul destroyer: like they were staying at the same house or something along those lines and like they just were like, Let's make out ashby: They hit it off. So what I got from that was a really interesting, what I got from that was a mirror image of Fanny and John, because what they Coco the soul destroyer: Mm. ashby: said is that Robert, thinking him, knowing himself to be the favorite and thinking himself so like superior to Edward in all these ways and being sort of a cat himself, they have a scene where he's like meticulously requesting a specific mash box made for him in a store and he's sort of seen as this kind of like Coco the soul destroyer: And checking out Eleanor and Mary like being a little leery. Yeah. ashby: Yeah. Yeah. He's kind of like a man about town. Do you know what I mean? Like he's Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: full of himself. And so he thinks he's going to go over and talk to Lucy every day and try to talk her out of her engagement with Edward because he thinks he's going to get the family all back on track. And then Lucy is Coco the soul destroyer: He succeeded. ashby: like, basically she picks up on what kind of person this is, Robert. And Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: she's like, each conversation got further and further away from talking about Edward. and just more and more talking about Robert, which turns out to be his favorite subject. And Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: over time, she's like, I just need one more conversation to be convinced that I shouldn't marry Edward. so over time, they develop a closeness because she pretty quickly figures out how to play this guy like a fiddle. And also we learn that Edward had let Lucy know that given the situation, now that he has no prospects or money. He thought it only right to offer her the option of ending the engagement since he's now been disinherited and that she might find better prospects elsewhere and does she not want to live penelously that way. The very funny thing is we find all of this out from gossip from Anne, right? Don't you remember this? Coco the soul destroyer: Mm, that's right. Yeah, I was wondering, I was like, how do we learn all this? Yeah. Cause Anne says anything. ashby: So we learned from Anne, the loud mouth sister is explaining all of this to Eleanor. Coco the soul destroyer: God. That sounds bad. ashby: And she's basically like, how could you know all of this went down? She's like, girl, I was listening through the keyhole. And this Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: like blew my mind. And Eleanor is so offended by this. She's like, how dare you tell me anything you didn't learn because the people entrusted you with that. Already gossip is bad, but Gossip you didn't get told that you overheard is like the worst kind of gossip. Now you've like contaminated Eleanor with this knowledge. that. I know, same. Coco the soul destroyer: would be like, tell me everything. ashby: But this is the way that she gets her like Willoughby moment where she's like, know, Edward was trying to be respectable, but of course, Lucy was just conniving. So that's why I think the Wikipedia was like this final act of spite even after Edward's big fall from grace and sort of keeping Eleanor and Edward apart, now I'm gonna, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: the final act of spite is to marry their rich brother. So. Coco the soul destroyer: And I do like that they kind of talk about the mom as like the mom lost a son, like you know, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: in Edward, like that's how she viewed it to as if I'd I ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: well not just like a disown you, yeah. ashby: But like disowned, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: and so when the second son was doing the same thing, it was ashby: with the same woman. Coco the soul destroyer: with the same woman, the the mom I think had I think it makes it does work. Like it's a ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: little tricky, but it works where it's like she's like, Wait a second, like I don't wanna ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: lose both my sons. And so She do it's like Edward gets something out of it. I don't know what ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: it's not like he gets a lot of but the the younger brother still gets more because she likes that kid more. Yeah. ashby: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So at first, when this all came through, I was like, nope, nope, nope, this is too convenient. But like over time, got me, over time, they got me to kind of agree that like, it kind of made sense with the characters. So as Edward is revealing all of this to the family, he like is stammering around and then he's like, I basically come straight away after all this has happened to be like, Eleanor, you want to marry me? And this is the first time that Eleanor has like this big display of emotion and they show it in both adaptations. She like bursts into tears while he's, and she's like disgusting snot sobbing while he's like trying to propose to her. And you know, then they all live happily ever after, but like, I didn't know what quite to make of that, of her just like totally losing it over this. It's like, I guess she had it bottled up the whole time. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, yeah. I mean I think it is just the like she has she can have her let her Marianne out, but you know? ashby: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's what we eventually see is a bit of a role reversal, which is that, Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: Eleanor is able to finally express like how much she really does feel for Edward and how excited she is with the possibility of getting married earlier in the book. Marianne, I don't know if it's in the book or only in the adaptation, but basically Marianne and, their mom sees Edward and Eleanor spending time together and she's like, no, they're gonna get married and then what are we gonna do without her? And the mom says, don't worry, we'll all find a place to live near her or on their estate and we'll all see each other every day. So that's why it's such a like nice poetic ending when Marianne eventually decides to marry Colonel Brandon because Eleanor and Edward live at the parsonage that's on their estate. So they all get to see each other and be neighbors every day. Coco the soul destroyer: Think that's what is like the the pleasure of like reading these novels ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: is like the the it's the f warmth of the family all hanging out together and like everyone is a different character and you get into disagreements ashby: Yeah, that they all want to stay close. Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and fight, but like you love each other and you're best friends. Like and ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: so I do think that yeah, they all live on the same land basically is great. Weird to be like two of you are super rich, two of you are not, but they don't care. Like, you know, El Eleanor doesn't care, yeah. ashby: Yeah. Well, and it's, it's not super different from their current arrangement. Like they'll just Coco the soul destroyer: No. ashby: get to go up to the big house as much as they want. And like, Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: but I also, they kind of made it sound like they give you an impression of Edward's personality early on where he's like, the life I want for me is a country life, like a small Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: little parsonage. I think it's more, he wants to like more be a therapist, like help people with their problems kind of thing. Yeah. I like to read and Coco the soul destroyer: more like I'm intellectual, I can like study and and yeah, not like do gossip in in London. ashby: Yeah, he doesn't like being in society. He wants to be Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: like part of a smaller community and also agreed he's an introverted person who likes a bit of, you know, reading and the intellectual pursuit and being a pastor does let him do all of those things, you know, like a small country pastor, he has an important role for that community, but it's a handful of people and he's not needing to perform gentleness around them. but you know, it's a decent living. And you get the impression that it's like actually a nice house. Colonel Brandon spends money to make their house cozy and nice and that they're just happy to be together. And they both seem to be like bookworms anyway, so. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, it's like as soon as they're like like Eleanor's gonna live there, like let's add like let's add a wing. Yeah. ashby: Let's make it nice. Yeah, let's make it nice. We'll make it nice. But one thing that's really interesting is Mary Ann's turn. And so Eleanor becomes like a little more expressive in how excited she is to be with Edward, but Mary Ann becomes over her convalescence, more appreciative of Colonel Brandon, who comes over and like just sits with her. And because of this experience she's had with Willoughby and like seeing Colonel Brandon's like true character bringing their mom there when she was sick. taking care of making sure Edward and Eleanor have a place to live. She like becomes Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: more fond of him. I don't know if it's in the book or just in the adaptations, but like apparently he also has a passion for music and he like gets her a piano. Or he lets Coco the soul destroyer: Hm. He might have. I don't it might be in the book. They they ashby: her come to the big house and play his nice piano and she starts to kind of see herself as the lady there. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. yeah he does. ashby: Yeah, she like starts to be like, you know what, I could actually be comfortable here. He seems like the kind of guy that will let me play his piano in in peace and then, you know, only only bother me if necessary. Coco the soul destroyer: And it it's I what I like is that it's it's not that they get married right away. They it takes years, I think. It's a long time. Where she grows up too. So ashby: Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she kind of learns to like appreciate, I think his like steadiness and like good natured. And I do think she probably also comes around to seeing like the value of everything that he can do for their family. Like on some level that has to be percolating for her. you know, and she has finally had this like big experience of going to London and having this great big romantic love affair. But I think she got pretty Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: well burned by that. And probably like the steadiness and the care of someone like Colonel Brandon starts to look pretty good by comparison to that. So, you know, I do got to say that I agree with a lot of the critics at the time of the book and now that the Mary Ann-Colonel Brandon pairing is not super satisfying to me. I understand that she basically, the yada yada yada is that part and is like, they grow to love each other. But it just, it's kind of just never quite fit for me. It also made me think of the trope of like, if the nice guy just is nice and stands around and waits long enough, then you have to reward. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. I think, ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: you know, that's we have a much better it's not the same character, it's not a one-to-one ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: because Colonel Brandon is meant to be like kind hearted. Like people ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: see him always as being good, but kind of boring. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: But and and he's not the same as like Mr. Darcy, who's like actively off-putting in a lot of ways, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: you know, but but you understand that that par part partnering of the like more bold lady with the more gruff guy way ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: more. and you see them grow into being ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: right for each other. And that's why it's great rom com. I mean, that's why the rom coms are built off of this. but boy, does it not work when you're watching the Aang Lee film ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: and you have a 19 to 20 year old Kate Winslet ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: paired with a Colonel Brandon that is Alan Rickman, who was 49. ashby: It's rough. Also her wig, if that is a wig is so bad. It's Coco the soul destroyer: It might be her hair. It could be, but ashby: so bad though. It just, I hate it so Coco the soul destroyer: Curly. So curly. ashby: much. yeah, it's, it's hard. They're all consummate professionals. It's also hard when like half of this cast ends up being in love actually later. It's very weird about Coco the soul destroyer: It's super weird. I have a thing about that, but yeah. ashby: that part too. Yeah. The thing is. On principle, I can see what they mean because I have had that experience myself of like really learning to appreciate subtler qualities in a partner that are harder to convey. And that really being a form of me maturing of being like, my gosh, there are people who are a little bit more introverted and things that I didn't know I valued like caring for their family or being very like. financially responsible. Things like that are things I didn't know mattered to me. And then over time, learning to appreciate them is like a really a true mark of growth and like maturity. So I can kind of like empathize with her going on that journey a little bit, but I still, I do still think just maybe from, like you said, the perspective of the novel, because we're on Eleanor's side of it, it feels a little unsatisfactory, but you know, then you have a very similar set of characters in. Pride and prejudice, and you get it from their point of view, and maybe it is more satisfactory that way. Coco the soul destroyer: I just think I yes. I I understand like Marianne Colonel Brandon thing eventually, that ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: it could be like he's responsible. Like I love him more in like a friend way, and I have a good life. Like I think that's fine. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, and that's good enough. Yeah. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: But I I think we should talk about the movie even ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: briefly. and I apologize because I did not watch the like mini-series version, but I I will just say the ages are wild and it does bother me. The ages of the cast don't make any sense. And so ashby: It is so crazy. No sense. Coco the soul destroyer: I am very happy to, at the very least, I think the ages are going to be much more appropriate in the new adaptation. Like Daisy Egger Jones is 28 years old, and ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: she'll be playing like a 21-year-old or 20-year-old, but like she, yeah, looks 20. Like it's fine. It works. She ashby: Yeah, how old was Emma Thompson in this one? Coco the soul destroyer: was 36, which so she's 36. Alan Rickman's 49. Kate Winslett was between 19 and 20. Like she was maybe she turned 20 when it was being filmed. Hugh Grant was 34. So it doesn't, the ages are so so Hugh Grant's character is supposed to be the age of Colonel Brandon. Like Hugh Grant, the actor, is basically the ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: age of Colonel Brandon. Like we should be keeping these people much more young because it part of the story. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: Alan Rickman being 40 is so he's. Basically thirty years older than her? It's disgusting. ashby: Yeah, no, no, it doesn't work. like also because again, it's so it's that British casting. So you see these people in other stuff all the time and you immediately Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: think Emma Thompson and Alan Rickman are the better pair. Like they just immediately, yeah, they just, they Coco the soul destroyer: And then they become that and they tease on her with the secretary, but still. ashby: just immediately make more sense together. And I gotta say like in the book, I kind of thought that was going to be the ending. And I also kind of thought that in the movie too, like I really got, it really made Coco the soul destroyer: wow. They are kind of a good pair. Yeah. Yeah. ashby: It made a lot more sense to me that like Eleanor would appreciate Colonel Brandon's like very sensible heroic qualities and that it would have been very satisfying to me that he had been like, Mary Ann reminds me of my previous love, but it's more of a paternal feeling that I have toward her. Actually, what I need is a partner with a good head on her shoulders. Coco the soul destroyer: That would be great. Yeah. ashby: that Mary Ann ends up with like someone totally different, to me that was a big curve and I was really feeling more of a like steady respect for each other over caring for Marianne that the two of them were growing closer. That Coco the soul destroyer: It's true. They have yeah. ashby: I really saw that as like about to develop into something and I thought it could have been quite nice, but for whatever reason she went this other way so. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. well, it's kinda like they don't change. Like it's like this one's gonna end up with this one and this one's gonna be with this one. There's gonna be a distraction that comes ashby: Yeah. Yeah. This one. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: in who's like a flamboyant guy that's like very exciting but isn't the right guy. Yeah. ashby: But yeah, the wigs are crazy in this. They're so bad. The hair is so bad. Just a disservice to Emma Thompson. made, she seemed so much closer to the age of the mom. It was wild. Honestly, her and the mom might've been contemporaries. Coco the soul destroyer: it's not it's not even just that Emma Thompson is thirty-six. It's like it's not I'm not saying she like looks old or anything. Like ashby: No. Coco the soul destroyer: but it's she is also like a tall woman. ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: So which I know is stupid, but in movie language that means you're older. ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: And she carries herself like a full adult. There is just ashby: Well, yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: nothing that and I know it's like difficult because she's supposed to be this response but she's not playing responsible elder daughter. That should be cared for by parents. Like, that's the role that Eleanor actually is. Like, you know, ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: she takes on more responsibility, but she is a young person and should like have her own life. But like Emma Thompson just is a full adult. She's just a full ass adult. ashby: I know, like the idea of her being like quote marriageable at this time period is like, it's Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah, we're talking one. ashby: just off, like everything about it is off, no. I, hmm? Coco the soul destroyer: Now what I do love is that Emma Thompson married Greg Wise, who played Willoughby, because they met on the set. ashby: Wait, is that true? Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. They're together to this day. And they look like they have a really cute, like, family. Their daughter's like an actress too and they post Yeah. Yeah. ashby: Emma Thompson and Willoughby are married? Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. ashby: I am learning this at this moment. Willoughby with the big eyes? Coco the soul destroyer: Y yeah. Not as big as yours at this moment, the way you're reacting. ashby: Whoa! Wow! How old is he? How old is he in the movie? Coco the soul destroyer: He's he's still hot. He I didn't write down his age, but he's he's about the same age as Emma Thompson. He might be like two years younger than Emma Thompson. So she's thirty six, let's say he's thirty four. ashby: I'll never get over this. I had no idea. I had to go back and Coco the soul destroyer: You'll never get over this? ashby: rewatch it. I thought I was so good at picking up on that sort of thing. Coco the soul destroyer: They're not gonna pick up on it from they're a professional. They're acting. ashby: Wow! They seemed like such different ages to me in the... Coco the soul destroyer: I did even while I was watching the film, I wrote Willoughby is also way too old for the role. ashby: Yeah, wow, wow. Okay, well, I learned something today. That blew my freaking mind. That blew my mind to death. Incredible, incredible. Yeah, okay. One thing I do want to talk about in terms of adaptations. So Coco the soul destroyer: sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ashby: I haven't read Pride and Prejudice, but maybe I will. And I haven't read Persuasion, but maybe I will. And I haven't watched or read any of the other ones, but maybe I will. But I immediately picking up on some themes that I have to think, you know how you say that directors always make the same movie. Jane Austen is doing the same thing with a bunch of her books. And one of the most obvious tropes to me is the seemingly wealthy savior guy who's too good to be true. And I have to think that this must be based on a real guy. because I have noticed that she makes this guy have a W name in every single one of her books. Coco the soul destroyer: are you slamming the table because it is coming through on the mic? ashby: Yes, I am that passionate about this theory. Again, it's probably like maybe in 16. Yes, Willoughby, Wickham, and in Coco the soul destroyer: So Willoughby, do you mean like Wickham? Who ashby: persuasion, it's cousin William. Coco the soul destroyer: okay. ashby: And they all have the same feature of like, they swoop in, they're like too good to be true, they're like very interested in the heroin, and then it turns out they have like problematic motives underneath it all. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: And I have to think, I have not, but I have Coco the soul destroyer: Have you looked into the thesis? I mean I have Okay. ashby: a sneaky suspicion that this is 16 year old me realizing that Clueless and Emma are the same. Coco the soul destroyer: well and I I do love that like persuasion is her most like autobiographical where in theory she did reject someone because of money and then regretted it, ashby: Yes. Yes, I did hear about that. Coco the soul destroyer: to some extent. I ashby: so I have to think that this is based on a real guy and that she is finding a way to drag this fucking dude. I like to imagine that she... Coco the soul destroyer: I love it. I love that. Let's do that. No broke boys or whatever Sierra Miller did for her dance. ashby: Yes, I like to imagine that as she's writing it, she's just putting like a W as the letter and just like placeholder. She's like, and then we have the cad Coco the soul destroyer: Uh-huh. Whatever name. ashby: and then we have this, then we have the fuck boy and we get rid of him. And then we have to have this sort of like the grumpy, you know, rough around the edges kind of guy that actually turns out to be a big softy who has lots of redeeming qualities There's always these like flibbertigibbit women that are kind of buzzing around that are sort of your quote unquote rivals. And the same trope happens in Persuasion where she's bracing herself to hear that the guy that she's into has married this woman and they're telling him about how she made such a good match in the... military officer that she married and then she learns that it's a different guy and not the actual guy. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: So that always plays a role. Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: That one is like a dramatic thing on the street where they're like, Yes. I it's good persuasion is worth reading. It's just a different tone than the other ones. ashby: But yeah, it really is like she's telling the same story over and over again, but from different perspectives. The reason I think that Pride and Prejudice gets so much love is because, like I said, I think as she's writing from the other sister's point of view, she's like growing a little bit. She's like having more fun with it of like, what would this Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: person do? Because it's so obvious to me that by the time she gets to Pride and Prejudice, she's just taken the similar story, but flopped who the protagonist is. So she has still the older sister Jane, who is, isn't that her name? Jane, the older sister, who is Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: the sensible one. But now she's telling it from Lizzie, the sort of headstrong, her character arc story. And I think she's just having more fun with that. Coco the soul destroyer: I mean Lizzie is just an incredible protagonist too. Like ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: that's yes, maybe it's because she's having more fun with writing the character. I don't know, but it's just like she's a ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: great character. We love her. We just love her. ashby: I'll go back to the Pride and Prejudice one, but one thing that I thought was an interesting take from the like meta discussion on it is it Coco the soul destroyer: yeah. ashby: is seeing these books as like etiquette guides or whatever. Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: At least one in the Wikipedia, they talk about this like one feminist critic of it is like this is about some of these are really about how to succeed within this structure. Coco the soul destroyer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: that's there. So they all end with this happy ending. And maybe that's like the fantasy, right? Is that she's writing Coco the soul destroyer: I know. ashby: a sort of aspirational text about how perfectly everything would have to go. this is sort of her like aspirational how great it would be for everything to just line up, you know, against all the odds in this current society. And that's one of the things that's always a little bit bugged me about Pride and Prejudice. is that it was always billed to me as a spunky protagonist because she mouths off and reads books. And instead it doesn't. No. Instead Coco the soul destroyer: sure, no. She's not Rory Gilmore. You know what I mean? Yeah, ashby: honestly, when I learn more about like the time period and how women are trying to come across they're all constantly competing, you know, because Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: of the inheritance structure. All of the women are competing with each other. to try to seem like the best possible partner to these men because that's how you inherit stuff is like, you gotta get in there. And Coco the soul destroyer: It's the only path. ashby: like, and because it has to go to the next male relative whatever. I think all of this stuff is built to you as here are these women who are pushing back on this structure, but she doesn't actually really interrogate any of it. Coco the soul destroyer: It's we're we're surviving within like the existing ashby: Yes. Coco the soul destroyer: system, but it is like it just takes the women seriously. And ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: I I just think what's compelling about them is the growth that the characters go on within basically what we now would say like a rom-com structure. So like the I think that's what a lot of rom-coms get wrong. Is ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: they're like, it's just about the chemistry between like the two leads, or like it's just about like they have to go through a certain number of stumbling blocks to end up together. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: And it's like, it's really about like how do these people grow as people? Like what do they learn? truly, like I think that's what's interesting about them. that's what's fun. As well as just the rich tapestry of side characters and how recognizable they are in modern life as they are in the past. you just understand the world that they exist in. But I think it offers a fantasy to two women of the time. Like your life can be okay. And it's like ashby: Yes, same. A happy ending. Coco the soul destroyer: and it's it's probably to some extent, Jane Austen fucked with my head because I ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: thought, you're gonna meet someone and they're gonna like treat you seriously. And really like they're not. They're swiping. You ashby: Well, Coco the soul destroyer: know? ashby: you're right. It does offer some like aspirational narratives to people. I think you're right that there's that contrast story in Pride and Prejudice where Charlotte and Mr. Collins end up together and she's basically like, hey, sure, maybe you can afford to hold out for like love and money, but some of us, you know, this is what's gonna work for us. We need this foundation and I can make it work from there. I think probably to a lot of women like reading that and having that taken seriously as a point of view and giving a sort of rebuttal to other women who might be like a little bit judgmental of that choice, that probably did offer a lot of people like a validation of their choices. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: It's just like dignity for some for that that character because what's important is the friendship. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: So the friendship is like y you're worthy of being this great friend to our main protagonist here and like you're a worthy person and like your choices are valid and it's great. And even like in Emma where she does the you know, picks up the her Britney Murphy basically, you know, rest in peace, Queen. ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: but and tries to like reform her, but like then that character has their own like very valid like journey and that in you know marries like the farmer ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: and she initially is like, Why would you marry a farmer when you could do better? And it's like, the farmer's like a a dignified person with a real job, bitch. You sit around and stitch things. Yeah. ashby: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, should you deny it? If it's something that works for us, the extra outside judgment doesn't help anything. So I do think there is something there about it validating women at least trying to navigate their own life that will work for them. I don't want to say what they're willing to settle for, but what they can feel good about in their limited set of choices that they have. because all of us are working within a constrained choice system. You we like to think we're so liberated now, but not really. And as materialists likes to remind us, our foundational texts. Coco the soul destroyer: materialists would be like she should run away with Will like I don't know what that's why again we have a grape about the film because it's like what was what should women do then? ashby: Yeah. What was the point? I think one thing that I was left with is like, I would actually like to read some of her letters. I've heard that her sister burned a lot of them. But the handful that have survived, there's a few like incredible biting commentary. And that is what's really fun about Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: about them is the social circle and the way you have to like clock people and try to set yourself apart. I can definitely understand why a person that likes Bravo would like these books because there are a lot of things in common. Coco the soul destroyer: It's so much in there. Another thing I'm just thinking about, like, is the romance part of it. Like, it's so much tied to the economics, right? Like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco the soul destroyer: it's so much tied to like women's like what does your life look like? Are you safe or not safe, sort of? and I think that how should I put this? I'm thinking of the movie version of Little Women, the Greta Gerwig Little Women, and how at the end of that movie she gives us kind of like Here's the romance happy ending, but then she kind of undermines it or just gives you a parallel ending that's like the real, the real happy ending is the woman being an artist and the woman ashby: Mm. Coco the soul destroyer: being a writer. And like Jane Austen, it's it's so sad that she dies at 41. But like, is it some great tragedy that she wasn't married? Like, I don't feel that. And like ashby: Not sure that it is. Coco the soul destroyer: she is this person who wrote these incredible novels that are so fun to read hundreds of years later. And have like given us so much. there's there's romance in all of them. And so like maybe the emphasis is in the way that we talk about them is like on the romance and like about rom coms, but it's like the real joy is like she wrote these awesome novels and we as women get and other people, but like we get to read them. We're all like in a little community together. That's my cheesy speech. ashby: yeah, listening to the podcast, this goes a little bit more into her life. She may have died unmarried, but that's not to say she didn't have lots of romance in her life. Like the historians Coco the soul destroyer: All right. ashby: they talked to were like, they're actually surprised at how many men she had like a documented romance with. And like in one letter to her sister, she says something to the effect of like, I'm almost ashamed to tell you everything I got up to with my Irish friend. Imagine everything that you can in terms of impropriety with dancing and sitting together. It's like, what? So Coco the soul destroyer: Maybe that's why the sister burned some of the other ones. ashby: she got up to stuff and like she rejected a proposal, but then also there was someone that she really loved who died that she thought she was gonna get married to. Yeah, she had like a what they call a seaside romance that we don't know a ton about, but that... Yeah, he actually died. And so some of that makes sense with some of the stuff she works in with her characters where she's like, where she'll have Mary Ann say something like, Your first love, you should like continue to stay faithful to, you know. So she maybe had like a very romantic sense about commitment that it's not like sad that she didn't end up married because maybe getting married for her would have been an absolute like compromise, especially in terms of being able to write. Coco the soul destroyer: And if she didn't didn't really want kids especially if you want to be a writer, I think that is at the time anyway, yeah. ashby: makes it kind of clear that that's not what she's about. And she borrows a lot of stuff from like her own life. Like she has a French cousin, Eliza, who Coco the soul destroyer: Mm-hmm. ashby: has a sort of scandalous life path and then ends up married, married to her brother. Coco the soul destroyer: And gets brick. It's well. ashby: I think she lived a very interesting life at an interesting time. And I don't actually find it that sad that she died unmarried because I know that she had... Yes, only sad that she died, but yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: No. Only sad that she died at forty one. 'Cause I wish there were ten more novels. ashby: Yeah, but I think that she had like a rich and full life both with like her female relationships because her brother and sister-in-law actually helped her publish her novels. And obviously she and her sister were incredibly close and she had lots of friends, but of all ages and like social classes, it sounds like. But yeah, she also had a lot of, plenty of romance. Absolutely. Coco the soul destroyer: That makes sense 'cause she can write all these different people. Yeah. ashby: I think, yes, ultimately I've come around, Jane Austen is a gift. I'm not ready to say Jane Austen is like feminist, but it we're not going that we're not trying to do that. Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: No, no, I don't think we like wokeify Jane Austen. That's not no. Thank you for going on this journey with me. We really got into it. We're at we're at three hours and thirty minutes of recording time. I know I know it will be cut down, but just, you know, we did it. I'm proud of us ashby: This was fun. We really did. It will get severely cut. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of us. Coco the soul destroyer: too. ashby: Okay, well excited for the movie to come out and we'll have to do a part two. Coco the soul destroyer: Yes, all right. Bye, Ashby. ashby: Bye! Coco the soul destroyer: I wanna go through just like very quickly, some of my funny thoughts on the film version, if ashby: Yes, please. Coco the soul destroyer: Doo doo doo doo doo. Hugh Grant looks terrible in a turtleneck. I honestly think Hugh Grant all he does in this film is walk around with his shoulders up really high. Doing ashby: Yeah. Coco the soul destroyer: Hugh Grant. Just doing a Hugh Grant impression. ashby: There's just no chemistry between those two. I'm sorry. Coco the soul destroyer: No. And then I said it does make me want to watch Notting Hill. I might watch Notting Hill tonight. I love Notting Hill. It's one of my favorite rom coms. and I said I do like the little dog that Fanny has that she carries around. ashby: Mm-hmm. excited. Coco the soul destroyer: my one little Alan Rickman thing I did say is like at the very end in the film, he's just like reading to Marianne while they sit. ashby: Yes, I like that. Coco the soul destroyer: And I did say, maybe it would be good to have Alan Rickman read to you. ashby: I'm sure he has like a whole set of audiobooks. We should probably look that up. Coco the soul destroyer: But also rest in peace, King. I think he seems like a nice person, but ashby: Yeah, agreed. Coco the soul destroyer: not right for the role.