Latest / Pod Save America / “Your President of Lawlessness and Disorder.”

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“Your President of Lawlessness and Disorder.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Dan talks to LaTosha Brown. an organizer
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and co-founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund. Before that,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about the latest developments in the national uprising
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: against racism and injustice, what may have been the darkest
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: moment of the Trump presidency and Joe Biden's big speech
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: about race in Philadelphia. But first, you should always listen
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to Pod Save the People, but especially this week, DeRay, Brittany, Clint,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and Sam recorded a very powerful episode that's worth every
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: minute of your time. Later in the pod, we'll also
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: be talking about the 8 Can't Wait campaign. which was
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: created by DeRay, Brittany, and Sam. It's about pushing cities
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: to adopt eight policies that can decrease police violence. You
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: can check that out at eightcantwait.org, the number eightcantwait.org. You
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: can also support organizations working to combat police violence and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: systemic racism by going to crooked.com slash bail funds and crooked.com
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: slash change funds. Dan, I also see something on here.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: about a state that you have adopted.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: You're in lack of enthusiasm for winning the critical battleground
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: state of North Carolina, which is important to winning the
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: white house, taking back the Senate and preserving democracy is noted,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I would think. And so here on team North Carolina,
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: which includes myself, Elijah, Shaniqua, Yale, and a lot of really,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: it's a real, you.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: Got a lot of, you got a lot of the
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: cricket staff on your team.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You should probably take note of that and, Think
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: about it for a second. And so we have to
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: be particularly creative and team North Carolina. We had, we
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: did not have some big podcasts like the wilderness pushing
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: us for years. We didn't have. We don't have a
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Monday pod that's consistently pushing us like Team Arizona, which
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: has two podcasts a week to push for itself. So
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: what we're going to do here is we got a
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: little creative, hopefully creative contest we're doing where if you
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: sign up at the link, I'm going to tweet out,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: which is go.crooked.com slash adopt NC. If you sign up
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: to adopt North Carolina at that state, you'll be entered
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: to win one of 10 signed copies of my book
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: that are sitting, taking up space in the house I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: cannot leave. Because the reason I've got North Carolina, other
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: than just my book, which I don't think is a
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: sufficient reason, but if it puts you over the top,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: who am I to argue, is North Carolina is the
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: state that will determine not just the White House, but
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: whether we take the Senate back. We have to elect
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Cal Cunningham. We can flip the house there. And as
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I've said before, North Carolina Republicans are some of the
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: worst in the country, and they deserve to be defeated.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So go to go.crooked.com slash adopt NC, sign up, enter
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: to win, and help us save democracy. What do you got,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Team Arizona?
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Well, now I have to think of some fucking bribe
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: to get people to sign up for Arizona. So I'm
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: going to sleep on that.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Go for it.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Do me a favor.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Look, a quid pro quo to save democracy is much
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: better than a quid pro quo to destroy it.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: That is a good rule of thumb. All right, let's
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: get to the news. The nationwide protests that erupted after
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: the police murder of George Floyd has now spread to
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: all 50 states and countries around the world. They have
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: been met in many instances with more police brutality. There
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: are videos all over the Internet of peaceful protesters and
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: journalists being tear gassed, shot at with rubber bullets and
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: physically attacked as they're arrested by police officers. Dozens of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: cities were still under curfew as of Wednesday night, which
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: mayors say they imposed to stop the looting and destruction
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: committed by different groups of people who had nothing to
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: do with the protests. And now there are more National
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Guard soldiers deployed in American cities than active duty soldiers
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: deployed in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. But despite all this,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: the men and women in the streets have already seen
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: signs of progress. On Wednesday, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: increased the charge against the police officer who killed Floyd
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: to second-degree murder, and he also charged the other three
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: officers involved with aiding and abetting murder. Dan, I think
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the last time we recorded the protests hadn't begun. What
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: has been your reaction watching this moment unfold.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: Over the last week?
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: This has been a moment that I've really struggled to
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: put into words my feelings about it. It is both
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: incredibly disturbing and frustrating and angering to see a situation
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: that we have in this country where police violence like this,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: both what happened to George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: so many others can happen in this country and the
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: violence that we're then seeing from the police against peaceful
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: protesters around the country. Yet at the same time, you
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: turn on the TV and you see millions, millions of
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Americans of all ages, all races, all backgrounds, marching in
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the streets, peacefully, nobly adhering to the principles of civil disobedience.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: In doing so, putting their literal lives at risk, not
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: just because we're living in the We have a president
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: and other authorities who are advocating for state-sponsored violence against
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: these protesters, who are calling them Antifa and domestic terrorists,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: talking about them as if they were foreign terrorists trying
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: to destroy the homeland. And you're right. The progress has
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: been nowhere near what we need to address systemic racism
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: in this country and to deal with police brutality. But
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: progress is happening. And so it is a set of
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: mixed emotions every time I turn on the TV, every
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: time I turn on Twitter, every time I see what's
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: happening in communities around this country. And so I think that,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: like I hope that, I don't know if that's the
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: most articulate way of saying it, but I think that
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: maybe the impression a lot of people are having is
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: this sort of yin and yang between sort of fear
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: and despair. And the thing I keep thinking about is
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: this moment is going to mean one of two things, right?
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: It's either going to end up being the beginning of
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: the end of the set of politics and policies that
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: led to the situation involving the murder of George Floyd
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: or white supremacy in the white house, or it's the
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: end of the beginning of that process. And what happens
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: in the, in this election and the next several months
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: and in these protests is going to determine the answer
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: to that question.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know, I've had this sort of
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: odd experience where over the weekend, um, you know, I
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: experienced what's been happening largely through, uh, what I saw
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: on TV. And of course I'm, someone who just supports
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: protests in principle. And so I had that feeling. I
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: also had the feeling of sort of living in Los
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Angeles and hearing helicopters overhead and seeing destruction on the
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: local news and fires down the street and all those
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: kinds of things. And then, you know, I decided on
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Tuesday to, I learned that there was a protest at,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Mayor Garcetti's house, outside Mayor Garcetti's house, and he lives
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: close by. So I decided to head down to the
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: protest before curfew, because we have curfew here now. And,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the experience of being at a protest is
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: so much different than the experience of just seeing it
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: or supporting it. And, you know, it was incredibly peaceful.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: And it was... incredibly diverse, both in terms of race
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and in terms of age. There were young people, there
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: were people who took their kids. There were older people
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: who looked like they had been involved in protests forever.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: There were people who looked like it was their very
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: first time going to a protest. And, you know, in
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: this protest, um, the cops were all there and they
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: were sort of, uh, positioned throughout the crowd. But at
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: one point, uh, the police officer in charge sort of
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: called on them to all fall back towards Garcetti's house
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: and And everyone cheered. And a number of speakers ended
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: up speaking. And I didn't know it at the time.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Tommy was also there. He was like across the street. And,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: you know, he could hear the speakers better than I could. And,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you know, it was a lot of people talking about
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: their first experience with police violence at very young ages
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: when they were, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old. And,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: you know, it was, like I said, it was peaceful
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: and constructive conversation. The problem is that the way that
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: the police handled that protest, which is they allowed the
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: protesters to speak and to protest and to be there,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: has been the exception and not the rule in too
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: many places. And, like, a lot of times the police
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: aren't anywhere near the people who are stealing and destroying shit.
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: This was going on in Santa Monica over the weekend
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: that there was like looting and destruction in Santa Monica.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: And the police were being aggressive on the protesters who
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: were peaceful. And how many different videos have we all
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: seen now? You know, and the thing is, the police,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: they know the cameras are on. They know people's cell
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: phones are on. They know body cameras are on. They
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: know that the mayors have told them not to use
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: excessive force in many instances. And sometimes they know even
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: their chiefs have told them not to. And they do
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: it anyway. And you know, what that tells you is
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: for all of the videos we've seen and examples of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: police officers taking a knee with the protesters, and there
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: have been some really moving videos of police officers hugging
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: protesters and listening, but there is clearly, clearly a systemic
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: issue with policing and the culture and the laws around
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: what police can do with regard to force. huge problems
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: that we are seeing unfold on our screens every single day.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And black Americans in this country very rightly will say like, yeah,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: it's about time everyone noticed. We've been dealing with this
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: for a very long time. But to your point about progress,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I think what might make this time different is the
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: fact that so many Americans are not just seeing images
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: of fires and looting and vandalism on their screen. They
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: are seeing police brutality against peaceful protesters all over the country.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: And I do think that has the potential to change
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: things much in the way that, you know, in the
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: civil rights movement, like one of the big turning points
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: was most Americans watching, you know, John Lewis and the
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: people on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma get beaten
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: to within an inch of their lives. And And that
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: was actually the strategy of King and the civil rights
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: movement to, it was a strategy of nonviolence, but they
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: knew that through nonviolence, they might sort of attract violence
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: on themselves. And when the country saw that, there was change.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: And I think at least we're beginning to see signs
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: of progress. And, you know, I think the other signs
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: of progress I've been seeing have to do with changes
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: in public opinion. What have you seen on that front
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: that sort of made you more optimistic?
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen just a fundamental change in views
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: of police interactions with communities of color, particularly African-Americans, even
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: as recently as after Ferguson, where now you have majorities
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: of Americans who believe that African-Americans are treated differently by
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: the police and suffer at the hands of the police
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: in ways that they are more likely to be the
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: subject of police violence. And awareness is obviously the beginning
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: of solving the problem, right? But we have a long
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: way to go. I just want to say one more
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: thing about this, which is watching this over the last
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: several days here, it is this reminder that even if
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: you are, as a white American, that you can understand
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: that systemic racism exists, you can be involved in trying
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: to address it through, you know, pushing for policies to
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: do it or helping elect politicians who will do it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You can, you know, believe you're, you know, you can
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: be as woke as you can possibly be, but you still,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: this is the reminders that even if we, we intellectually
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: understand that systemic racism is something that exists, we don't
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: have to confront it every single day.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And like that is a level of exhaustion and anxiety
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: that comes from worrying about your family walking out the
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: door just could end up, you know, it could end
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: up in a confrontation with the police that could end
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: their lives or change their lives. And we don't have
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: to deal with that. And I think one of the
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: things I think a lot of people have been struggling
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: with is figuring out what's the constructive thing to do here, right?
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: How can, you know, what can we do that is
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: more than what we've been doing? And I don't have
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: any good answer to that. And there was a lot,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: you know, we'll talk about eight can't wait and a
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: lot of other situations. But one thing that we were
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: thinking a lot about in our house is Like, how
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: do you raise a child that is anti-racist, right? Like
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: there's been a lot, you know, you get children's books,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: there's a, you know, there's a, there's a whole genre
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: of books that try to address diversity and, and the
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: existence of racism and all of that. And most of
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: them sort of abide by sort of this antiquated colorblind
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: notion of race.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: And what like Holly and I've been focusing a lot
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: on is thinking you know, about, you know, what's the
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: right way to talk to your children about this, right?
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Because even, you know, we have a two-year-old who still,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: this is happening in a time in which she lives
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: and it's, you know, we're talking about it around her
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: and it's on TV sometimes when she's around. And, you know, well,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I just want to recommend like one resource
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: to parents who are having that same thing, which is
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: an organization called The Conscious Kid, which will give you,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: which has a whole line of children's books to deal
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: with this and gives people guidance on how to talk
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to your kids about it. And it's been you know,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: as people who think that we are on the enlightened
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: side of these conversations, been a completely eye-opening experience about
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: how to handle this with children.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: That's good. I'll be needing that soon enough. I do
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about, this goes to
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: your point of how sort of attitudes are slowly changing
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: on the public opinion front. I think just to give
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: people an idea of sort of the contours of the
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: political debate and the public opinion around police reform. I
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: think traditionally, one of the biggest challenges with police reform
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: has been that the police are the third most trusted
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: institution in America. Gallup found recently that they're far more
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: trusted than the press or Congress. They're basically almost as
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: trusted as the military. It's also true that even in 2019,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: majorities of white and black Americans favor hiring more cops
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: for their communities. And so there is this challenge of
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: like policing as sort of a popular trusted institution among people.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: And yet I do think it's worth pointing out like
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: specifically some of the changes we're seeing just in the
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: last couple of weeks. Civics just did a poll showing
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: that support for Black Lives Matter is the highest it's
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: been in three years of polling with 49% of people
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: supporting the movement, 24% opposed. Majority of Americans have expressed
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: support for the protesters this week. The percentage of people
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: who think we don't take racism seriously enough has jumped
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: 10 points just since last year. The percentage of people
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: who think racism is a big problem is now 76%,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: up from 51% in 2015. 78% said the anger sparked
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: by the protest was justified. And I thought this was notable.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: even after being reminded that some of these protests involved
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: property destruction, 54% of people said the actions were at
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: least partially justified. And again, you would rightly look at
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: those numbers and say those are not good enough, and
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: they're not. But I think witnessing the change from even
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: a couple years ago to now should tell us that
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: those other numbers on policing that are challenging can be changed.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And that's the work that's happening right now. And I
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: do think that the point of highlighting progress is not
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: to make you satisfied. It's to make you determined that
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: the work you're doing actually matters and that it can
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: actually make a difference, as exhausting as it may be. Okay.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the lowest moment of Trump's presidency,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: which is saying a lot.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Have we decided that this is the lowest?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I am deciding that it is the lowest moment of
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: his presidency so far, possibly even any presidency. I think
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: like it is certainly up at the top of the list.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: We could have a separate debate on that.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: No, I think I'd agree with you. I think, I mean,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: it would be as like, I think most people would
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: have said the previous lowest moment was Charlottesville. And it
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: would be as if after Trump saying that Nazi would
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: verify and people dispatched the U.S. military to go put
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: down the people protesting against the Nazis. I guess that.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Like, I mean, just... I don't... I mean, it's... You
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: can go through history of, like, bad moments from different presidencies,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and it feels like... He combined so many of them
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: into one. Into one bad moment.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: There is not a right answer to this question.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: No, no, there's not.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: The term of Japanese Americans or World War II, hot
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: on that list.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: That's up there. But the fact that it is.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: In the conversation is what says everything.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the fact that it's up there. On Monday, a
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: group of peaceful protesters across from the White House in
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Lafayette Park were cleared away with tear gas. so that
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump could walk across the street to St. John's Church,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: pull a Bible out of Ivanka's $ 1, 500 handbag, and pose
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: for a fucking picture. The photo op came after Trump
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: gave a speech in the Rose Garden where he announced
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: the deployment of elements of the 82nd Airborne Division to
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Washington and threatened to use the Insurrection Act of 1807,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a rarely used law which allows the president to deploy
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: the armed forces on American soil in order to keep
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: civil order. Here is a clip from the Trump speech.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: But in recent days, Our nation has been gripped by
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: professional anarchists, violent mobs, arsonists, looters, criminals, rioters, Antifa, and others.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: These are not acts of peaceful protest. These are acts
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: of domestic terror. The destruction of innocent life and the
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: spilling of innocent blood is an offense to humanity and
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: a crime against God. If a city or state refuses
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: to take the actions that are necessary to defend the
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: life and property of their residents, then I will deploy
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: the United States military and quickly solve the problem for them.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: I want the organizers of this terror to be on
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: notice that you will face severe criminal penalties and lengthy
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: sentences in jail. I am your president of law and order.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: What was going through your mind as you watched this
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: thing unfold on Monday evening?
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: That it's almost hard to believe it's real. Because it's
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: not just Trump's remarks, right? If you're watching this in
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: real time on cable television, it began with U.S. federal
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: law enforcement tear gassing and shooting projectiles at peaceful protesters
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: immediately prior to a national address. And that is a
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: space that you and I know well. They were in
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Lafayette Park directly across the street from the White House,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: which is a place that is famous for hosting many,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: many protests over the years. It is where citizens often
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: gather to send messages to their president from protests around
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: environmental policies. I remember very clearly during the Obama administration
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: when the president was giving a set of remarks in
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: the Rose Garden about Syria, hearing the protesters who were
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: arguing against military action in Syria while standing in the
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Rose Garden listening to the president. It is where people
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: gathered to celebrate after the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And to see that space be pushed, that that was
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: no longer a place where peaceful American citizens could expressed
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: their opinion on the government seemed something that was so
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: contrary to what we at least try to tell ourselves
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: this country is, that it was incredibly disturbing and sort
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of hard to believe it was real. It was sort
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: of some of the worst nightmares about what a Trump
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: president would look like becoming real before our eyes.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That last thing was my thought exactly, is that
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: we were, first of all, it was just like, what
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: the fuck is happening right now? What is he doing? Like,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: what is this speech?
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: And so there's like a lot of confusion around it,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: but as it, as it started to unfold and you're right,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: like that clip, you just hear Trump. But when you
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: watch it on TV, there's a split screen of the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: protesters getting gassed and cleared. And, and then you hear
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: him speaking and you can sort of hear the commotion
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: in the background. And it's this very sort of like
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: eerie commotion. scene that I thought the same thing. I'm like,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: this is the worst nightmare of what people imagined would
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: happen if this man became president. And now it's come true.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: So I think the best reporting on how this all
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: came to be came from the New York Times. They
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: had a really sort of long piece on this the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: other day. And it sort of revealed like, as with
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: everything Donald Trump does, it's like one part dictator, two
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: parts dipshit. You know, like, and so like- That's great alliterations, Mr.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Speechwriter. That is excellent.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: No, like that's what, everything is like that. And I,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: you know, like the further we get out from it,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: you look back on it and you hear all this
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: reporting about how like incompetent these fucking buffoons are. But
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: this all started apparently with Trump getting angry about stories
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: over the weekend that accurately portrayed him as hiding in
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: the White House over the weekend and noted that he
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: was even taking to the secret presidential bunker on Friday
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: because they were worried about the protests. And he was
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: so angry about this.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I think, John, that's deeply unfair. Donald Trump told us
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: with award-winning objective journalist Brian Kilmeade that it just happened
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: to be that a previously scheduled tour of the bunker
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: was happening at the exact moment of the protests. So
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: what a coincidence.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: As we all know, every president must inspect the bunker.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: That is part of their job. That is when they
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: take the oath. Part of the oath is to inspect
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the presidential bunker on the fourth year of their presidency
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: at a certain hour. It's right there in the Constitution,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: so that's what he was doing. I mean, like, what
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: was your reaction to the fact that, like, the guy
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: was pissed about media coverage, and so as a result...
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: That's how he ended up tear gassing his own citizens
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and threatening to turn their military against them.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, it it's like we previously said, this is
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: perhaps the natural end result of having a president like Trump.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: And when you you know, you point out that it's,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you know, some part dipshit and that should be give
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: comfort to no one. The history of fascism in the
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: world is driven by a bunch of clowns. Countries fall
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: into authoritarianism, not by virtue of oftentimes some massive strategic plan.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: It's they stumble ass backwards into it. And that's what
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: we're looking at right now. And we should say this
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: as clear as possible. The Trump administration tear gassed thousands
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: of peaceful protesters so the president could have a brief
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: photo op. That is what happened. And I just think
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: absurdity of the Trump administration, the fact that he walked
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: there and Ivanka Trump kept the Bible in her $ 1, 500 handbag.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: And we'll talk maybe about this a little bit, but
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: the Secretary of Defense thought he was going to visit
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: a broken toilet. And for some reason, the Joint Chiefs
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: was wearing his military uniform as if he was on
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the battlefront in Iraq. And it all seems so absurd
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: and so poorly thought out. And it's a bunch of
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: just absolute morons at heart here, but you have to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: say what actually happened because it should shock the conscience,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: should absolutely shock the conscience.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Well, there's, I mean, I think it's helpful to separate
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: this into two parts, right? There is the planned photo
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: op at the church, which is like absurdity that also
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: turned into a lot of people getting hurt because they
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: were tear gassed. And then there is the policy decision that,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: to threaten the nation's governors that if they do not
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: get the situation in their cities under control, that Donald
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Trump will use the Insurrection Act to deploy the military
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: against American citizens, which I think is, you know, in
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: some ways, that threat was almost overshadowed by the absurdity
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of and violence that went along with the photo op,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Like per usual, and I have been guilty of this
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: for the last few days, is it's easy to chase
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: the shiny absurd part of Trumpism and ignore the true threat.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: And obviously real people were injured and there was a
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: real violation of the First Amendment and basic democratic principles
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: and what Trump did. But we should not be distracted
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: by him holding the Bible potentially upside down and all
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: the other absurdities of that story. But they should not
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: allow that to distract us from What is actually at
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: play here, which is the president threatening to deploy the
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: military to put down peaceful protests in this country that
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: he does not like.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And like, you know, a couple of things to point
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: out here. We later find out that it's or at
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: least the reports are that it was Bill Barr, the
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: attorney general who ordered the protesters cleared away. And apparently
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: there was a plan to expand the security perimeter around
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the White House that hadn't been carried out yet. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Barr realized this and knew that the president wanted to
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: go make the photo op. So he ordered law enforcement
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: officers on the ground to complete the expansion of, that's
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: what they're calling it, of the security perimeter, which meant
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: dispersing protesters. But because there wasn't enough time to do
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: so before the president's planned statement, they had the split screen.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: So you got built, first of all, and, you know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: a friend of ours, Nick Shapiro, who worked in the
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: White House with us and worked on a lot of
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: national security issues He was like, my big question is,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: what the hell is the attorney general of the United
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: States doing in charge of the park police, all these cops?
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: What is he doing in charge of all of these troops?
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: And to this day, in Washington, D.C. right now, there
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: are soldiers deployed in D.C. with no nameplate. You don't
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: know what organization they're from. They don't tell you when
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: reporters ask where they're from. what branch they're from. So
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: it is basically like Bill Barr's standing private army that
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: he is controlling right now is the Attorney General of
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the United States, which is the stuff of fucking dictatorships.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, we should note that the Attorney General is
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: in charge of the Department of Justice. He has no
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: authority over the Park Police, no authority over the Secret Service.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: He is just essentially operating as the president's henchman ordering
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: law enforcement about law enforcement, which he has no authority, statutory,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: constitutional or anything else. Like the wheels are off the
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: fucking bus.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: Here, people. They are.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I also loved officials privately conceded that little thought was
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: given to what Mr. Trump would do once he actually
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: got to the church. That like that was that was just,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: you know, as usual with these fucking assholes. It's like
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: so he has this plan you know he wants to
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: he wants to use the insurrection act basically he is
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: persuaded by some to not use that to just threaten
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: to use it and so they're like well what else
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: you're gonna do and then around lunchtime some combination we
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: don't know of Ivanka Hope Hicks Jared Trump himself come
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: up with this harebrained scheme to go to St. John's.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: So St. John's Church, people should know, every president has
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: been there. Usually there's some kind of a service there
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: on Inauguration Day that presidents attend. It is a very
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: famous church in D.C. The basement of it was briefly
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: on fire on Sunday night because of some of the looting.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And so Trump thought they would go there and say like,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: you know, this is a sacred church and it was
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: burned by Antifa and all that bullshit and get this
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: photo op out of it. And they thought nothing beyond that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: There was no thought beyond that.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: The thing, I mean, my first read of that story
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: and we were texting about it when it came out
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: the other night was laughter because like what a bunch
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: of fucking clownsy people are. And there's like great. And
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: just from a point of consumers of journalism, it's an
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: incredible story filled with amazing tidbits like the price of
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Ivanka Trump's handbag. Ivanka Trump, Orthodox Jew who happened to
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: be carrying a Bible in her handbag just as Trump arrived, right,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: is one example. Then all the yahoos in the Trump
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: administration who insisted on being in the photo op. I've
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: never seen a photo op with the White House press
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: secretary before, but Kelly McEnany put herself right in it
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: with the Secretary of Defense and a bunch of other
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: no-named white people. But the thing that is just infuriating
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: to me as someone who has worked in that building
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: as you have is We are governed by the dumbest
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: people possible. It is the family of a dumb man.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It is the people who would have been cut from
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: the JV team of the Republican Party in charge of
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: the government. And the problem is they live in this
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: bubble of ignorance and insecurity that is so tight that
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they think they're smart. They thought this was a brilliant
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: fucking idea. They were actually competing for who would get
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: credit for this idea. When they didn't even, it's like,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: They were trying to do the alphabet, and they tripped
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: at C. It was just so frustrating with how dumb
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: they are. And in this case, it has consequences. But
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: it's also directly related to why one in four working
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Americans is out of work. And we've been in quarantine
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: for months because we have dumb people not just in
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: charge of photo ops, but in charge of pandemic response.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the reaction, which was not quite
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: what the White House had hoped. So we had a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: handful of Republican senators criticize Trump. The rest defended him
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: or gave reporters the old I didn't see it answer.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Milley, and secretary
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: of defense, Mark Esper have said they didn't really know
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: the photo op was happening. You mentioned Esper thought he
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: was going to inspect a vandalized bathroom, which is, it's.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: An important part of the duties of the secretary of defense.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Again, laid out, laid out in the constitution. Um, and then, uh,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Esper announced the next day at a press conference that
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: he's now opposed to using the military against American citizens
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: right now. He's opposed to the insurrection act, um, which reportedly,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of course, because he said that got him in some
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: hot water with Trump. Um, Military leaders like former Joint
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen and General John Allen have criticized Trump.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: And then yesterday, General Jim Mattis, who served as Donald
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Trump's Secretary of Defense, released a statement saying that he was, quote,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: angry and appalled, accused Trump of being the first president
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: who purposely tries to divide Americans and wrote, quote, Never
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: did I dream that troops taking that same oath would
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: be ordered under any circumstance to violate the constitutional rights
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: of their fellow citizens. much less to provide a bizarre
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: photo op for the elected commander in chief with military
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: leadership standing alongside. What is your reaction to the reaction, Ben?
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I think there is, like, I don't really care about
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the Republican side. senators who had, you know, like Susan Collins,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: who had brief, sad comments about this. Like, you know what?
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: You have constitutional powers. Fucking do something about it. Subpoena someone.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Have a hearing. Like, you have real authority.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: You had your chance. You had your chance. One of
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you voted for impeachment and one former Republican voted for
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: impeachment in the House. That was it. Y'all had your chance.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Even if you didn't want to impeach him, which is
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: a basically absurd proposition, right now, you could do something
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: about this. You could use your powers to get, you
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: have checks and you have balances and you have done neither.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: at any point over the last three and a half years.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I think the military criticism is powerful. I think it
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: certainly influenced Mark Esper to very briefly try to undo
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: the damage that he was a part of. Look, I
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: think General Mattis has been tripping over the bar of
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: low expectations for being an important figure and a heroic
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: figure in the Trump era. But his comments are powerful.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: They are relatively unequivocal. And I think they could have
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: real impact, not just on other Republicans who may have
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: private concerns about Trump, who may be able to develop
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: the physical ability to express them publicly, but also on
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: voters who are souring on Trump. So I think that
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: the Mattis moment is significant.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that I felt mildly better over
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: the last couple of days, watching some people come out
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: and speak their mind about this. And I'd say, again,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: we are tripping over the bar of low expectations here.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: But Trump has clearly done enormous damage to our institutions,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: and he's threatening to do even more damage right now.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: And by trying to sort of polarize the military and
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: send the military into American cities by treating the military
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: and treating police as like his own private security force.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: All the shit he's been doing is very scary. His
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: attacks on the press and the institutions of the media.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: But I think that over the last couple of days,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: you've seen that like, while our institutions have been damaged
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: and remain threatened, they are still holding up and in
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: some cases pushing back. Um, but I, I don't know.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I think there's, there's a real fear that I still have.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, fucking, Hogan Gidley, one of the White House
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: press spokesmen this morning said, all options are on the
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: table with the military, which is something you'd say about
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: fucking Iraq or Afghanistan or some other country that we
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: might be in conflict with and not about sending troops
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: into American cities. So, you know, there's still, I have
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of alarm that, like you said, we could
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: sort of stumble into something very dark and scary here.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: We already have. But, Seeing, and again, thanks Mattis for
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: speaking up now. You had a couple years.
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: But whatever.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Anyone who can speak up now, speak up now. Whoever
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: is in a position of power or influence in elected
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: office or not elected office, this is the fucking time.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Say something. And if you've been late in the past
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and you haven't been with us in the past, that's fine.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: We can talk about that later. For now, now you've
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: got to step up.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes, we should encourage people to speak on that.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: But do you think Mattis has been looking for the
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: phone number for the Atlantic for two and a half
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: years now?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I was just, I mean, it is like.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: It's like open your DMs, Jeff Goldberg.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: We have people who want to talk to you. Again,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: back into the absurdity of like Washington culture, you know,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: and like sort of like the, everything is so insular
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: and like people don't understand the way like media and
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: communication work. Like, All right. Like I'm going to like
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: call up Jeff Gold and look, we love the Atlantic. Great.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to call up Jeff Goldberg and land my
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: statement there. You know, like there's like platforms that can
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: be like, you know, like fucking Candace Owens is on
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Facebook with like 27 million views saying horrible things about
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: George Floyd because that's how. Fucking information travels now. But
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: we've got like we landed an op end at the
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Atlantic to speak out against our authoritarian decline. Yes, it's
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: like put yourself on video. Let's put some money behind it.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Let's put it on TV as an advertisement. That'll get
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: people to hear it.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Certainly all the people we're talking about have a phone
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: with a camera in their pocket with access to the Internet.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: You don't need the Atlantic. Take a video. Send it out.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not like the days of like going
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: to Catherine Graham's house and hoping she'll write an op-ed
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: in the Sunday's paper, you know? Well, as it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Turns out, he could have written just about anything about
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: anything with full of lies and conspiracy theories and the
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: New York Times would have printed it. So he probably.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Didn't know that was available to him. We haven't even
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: talked about fucking Tom Cotton. I don't even, I mean,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: that is just, we'll save that for another time.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, to your point, like I think anybody, Over
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: the course of the last three and a half years,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: there are people on Twitter, people we work with, people
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: in our lives who often have a reaction that may
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: seem hyperbolic to what Trump does. It usually falls in
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: this narrative of some master plan that Trump has, right?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Where he is like stealing and he's going to move
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: the election date or he's doing all these things. And
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: when it turns out, as you point out, it's a
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: blend of incompetence and malice always. And Trump's not a mastermind, right?
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: But as we've said before, he's a He's a criminal,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: but he's not a criminal mastermind. But I do think
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that it's easy to miss the threat because of Trump's stupidity.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: And so if you do an authoritarian blind taste test
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: of what's happened in the last few weeks, imagine you
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: turn on your computer, you click on a new site,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: and you read something that says something like, in a
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: country where a quarter of the working population had lost
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: their job in the last few months, in large part
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: to government mismanagement. The president who rose to power on
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: national sentiment despite receiving fewer votes than his opponent, today
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: branded the millions of peaceful protesters to be violent terrorists
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and dispatched his secret police to put down the unrest. Like,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: if you read that, you would cancel your plans to
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: travel that country. You would ask if you had family
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: who lived there, you would say leave quickly. The UN
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: would be working on a resolution. The United States Department,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: under a normal Secretary of State, would be writing a
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: letter about it. Maybe the President of the United States
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: would call that person, that leader, to try to tone
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: them down. And so there is this risk that we,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: by trying to not be the people who overreact, we
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: do sort of become the frog in the water that's
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: being heated slowly.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: The other thing I noticed was, like, while they were
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: clearing Lafayette Park, one of the police punched a cameraman
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: in the face. And it turned out to be, like,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: an Australian crew. So, like, Australia is doing this story
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: about how their journalists were in America and were, like,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: beaten by the police. Like, can you just fucking imagine
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: what the rest of the world is thinking about us
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: right now? Like, we seem like an authoritarian country right now.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: It's very, very scary. And we may be. On the
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: other hand, we should talk about the political fallout for Trump.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: So the Times said that the president's advisors believe that
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: the photo op would, quote, resonate with many middle Americans
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: turned off by scenes of urban riots and looting that
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: have accompanied nonviolent protests. It has not worked out like
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: that so far. Trump's disapproval rating is now higher than
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: any president at this point in his first term. The
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: number of Americans who believe the country is on the
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: wrong track has reached record levels. Joe Biden is now
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: leading Trump by nearly eight points nationally and by about
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: three to four points in swing states like Wisconsin and Arizona.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: And last night, the Times ran a piece saying that
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: in the Trump campaign's private polling, he's well behind Biden,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and they're now starting to worry about states like Ohio, Iowa,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and Georgia. Dan, there were some concerns when the protest
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: began that Trump would recycle Nixon's law and order strategy
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: from 1968. to scare off a bunch of suburbanites, particularly
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: white suburban women. Last night's Fox poll of Wisconsin showed
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: that suburban women are now going for Joe Biden 64%
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: to 29%. Why do you think this isn't working for him,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: at least so far? Obviously, it's early. This is a
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: snapshot in time. We could get a lot more data
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: as time goes on.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: The 1968 parallel is such an imperfect one on a
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: set of very obvious reasons. I mean, most importantly, Nixon
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: was the challenger. So when he was saying that law
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: and order had crumbled, he was saying that the Democrats
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: in charge of the government had lost control. Donald Trump
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: is not the challenger. He's the incumbent. He is announcing
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: he's a law and order president and saying that law
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: and order has crumbled. So he has never adjusted to
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: being the person in charge. He doesn't know how to
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: make a case for things that he is doing. So
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: that's step one. Step two is the electorate is very different.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Consolidating a– like the silent majority was another way of
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: saying the white majority in America in 1968. The numbers
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: are very different. Consolidating the white vote does not deliver
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: you the election in the way it did back then.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: It's just that the politics is very different. Donald Trump
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: is– he's basically doing Nixonian mad libs. He's just spouting
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: out– like he's tweeting out in all caps, silent majority,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: law and There is a world in which a more
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: deft demagogue could use this to his political advantage, but
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is not deft enough to do that thus far.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you can't run as the candidate of
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: law and order when you're the incumbent who has shown
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: no respect for the law and no ability to maintain order.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: It is just, you know, I do think it is
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: impossible to overstate the difference between Nixon as the challenger
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: and Trump as the incumbent, which seems pretty simple. But
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: it's just when people in the country who are seeing unrest,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: he's the guy in charge. Not only is he not
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: fixed it, he's made it worse. And everyone's seen that
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: he's made it worse. And to your point about the suburbs,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: the changing demographics, too, like the suburbs look different than
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: they did in 1968. The suburbs today are much more
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: diverse than they were back then. And in addition, the
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: views on race among white college educated Democrats who populate
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: the suburbs have also liberalized considerably since the late 60s.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: So you have suburbs that are much more diverse, that
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: are much more liberal, at least especially on their views
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: on race and social issues than they ever were in
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: the late 60s, which is maybe one reason why this
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: has not worked so well for Donald Trump.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, the other part of this that's important is
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: social media matters here in two ways. One, like there's
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: a whole conversation about how people who get their news
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: primarily from Facebook are getting completely incorrect information about what's happening.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: But more broadly, people are able to see, even if
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: for a period of time, I think it's less true now,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: cable and local news were covering The looting and the
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: other sorts of behavior disproportionate to the small percentage of
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: activity was compared to the millions of peaceful protesters, you
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: now have thousands of other ways to get that message out.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: People are able to see the peaceful protesters, are able
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: to put it in a context they would not before.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: And that is very helpful. You're no longer held captive
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: to the television news axiom that if it bleeds, it leads, right?
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: There's still an opportunity to get a full or 360
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: degree picture if they choose to do so.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on just sort of the size
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: of Biden's lead right now, you know, driven largely by
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: sort of worse approval for Trump. Do you think that is?
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, it's too early to say. We have
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: five months to go until November, which is a fucking lifetime.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about like it's probably as much time
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: between now and the election as it was between impeachment
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and now, which seems terrifying.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: So here's one way to think about it that I
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: saw someone on Twitter say yesterday, which is it's five months.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: The election in the Iowa caucus was four months ago. Oh,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: my God.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: But, you know, I mean, Dave Weigel pointed out the
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: other day on Twitter that like, you know, the eight
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: point lead that Biden has right now is is much
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: bigger than Clinton's lead at this point. Even Obama's lead
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: in eight and twelve. Now, I know you were pointing
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: out that they were still in the middle of a primary.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So that's one reason that their leads were narrow. But obviously,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: this isn't something we should get too excited about. But
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on it?
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, Biden has certainly greatly strengthened his position politically
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: since the pandemic began. And the polling averages are very clear.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: The swing state averages are very clear. I think the
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: question we do not know the answer to is, is
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: this going to revert to the mean, right? If it
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: reverted to the mean means people, we're going to sort
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: of resort ourselves in our partisan identities where we were,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: which what I think means is that Biden maintains a
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: popular vote lead larger than Hillary Clinton's, and we remain
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: in a very narrow electoral college situation. where maybe Biden's
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: a slight favorite, but it's very close. It does not
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: seem likely to me that Biden is going to win
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: the national vote by nine points and he's going to
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: win Wisconsin by nine points or he's tied in Texas
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: and ahead in Georgia and ahead in Ohio and some
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: of these states. That seems unlikely to me. Someone asked
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: me the other day if I thought that this was
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: the breaking moment for sort of the partisan lock that
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: we've had on this country since, you know, go back
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: to 2012, frankly. And it seems very similar to the
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: conversations that we had right when the Access Hollywood tape
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: came out.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Which, like, I think these are very different elections. I
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: think Biden has some strengths that Hillary Clinton did not
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: have available to her because this is essentially a two-person
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: race by, you know, and a whole bunch of other
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: things happening. But, like, these Republicans tend to be very
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: disturbed by things. And then go right back to where
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: they were before.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Um, down the memory hole.
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: All right. I do want to get to Joe Biden's
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: reactions to Trump and the protest this week. But before that, um,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: let's take a minute to talk about the reaction of
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: his old boss and ours, Barack Obama. Uh, the former
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: president participated in an online town hall on Wednesday hosted
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: by the my brother's keeper Alliance. In his remarks, Obama
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: called for police reform and express support for the people
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: who've been participating in the protests. Let's take a listen.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: I want to speak directly to the young men and
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: women of color in this country. Uh, who as Playon
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: just so eloquently described, have witnessed too much violence and
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: too much debt. And too often, some of that violence
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: has come from folks who were supposed to be serving
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: and protecting you. I want you to know that you matter.
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: I want you to know that your lives matter, that
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: your dreams matter. And when I go home and I
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: look at the faces of my daughters, Sasha and Malia,
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: and I look at my nephews and nieces, I see
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: limitless potential that deserves to flourish and thrive. and you
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: should be able to learn and make mistakes and live
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: a life of joy without having to worry about what's
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: gonna happen when you walk to the store or go
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: for a jog or driving down the street or looking
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: at some birds in a park. And so I hope
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: that you also feel hopeful even as you may feel
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: angry because you have the power to make things better
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: and you have helped to make the entire country feel
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: as if this is something that's got to change. You've
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: communicated a sense of urgency that is as powerful and
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: as transformative as anything that I've seen in recent years.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: What'd you think of that?
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: You know, people always say to us, like, why doesn't
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Obama speak out more? We need Obama right now. And
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: our response usually is that Like, we're not one Obama
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: speech away from Trump folding up tent and returning to Mar-a-Lago, right?
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: But having said that, it was great to hear from
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama in this moment.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it always is. I mean, I've always been a
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: fan of him coming out and speaking, knowing that it's
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: not going to be the thing that destroys Trump. But
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I think it just, I think it also helps remind
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: people what a good leader can sound like. even a
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: leader that, and you know, you Republicans say this all
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: the time, they were not very nice to him when
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: he was president, but they'll say like, wow, it's really
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: nice to hear just a normal president who is caring
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: and thinks about people and is articulate and can speak and,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: you know, can speak in full sentences and doesn't sound
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: like he's unstable all the time. You know, like all
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: of these things that we have been missing for the
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: last several years. You know, and I just, I, I, I'm,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I'm very happy. He also focused on, you know, for
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: all the pain that's out there trying to sort of
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: instill that sense of hope in the young people who are, um,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: who are out there working so hard, which, you know,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, um, because I think it can
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: be very easy to sort of slip into, uh, cynicism
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: and despair at a time like this, even if you
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: are doing the work. And he's always very good at
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: reminding us that the whole story of America has been
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: sort of two steps forward, one steps back, you know,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: and and that there's there's plenty to be hopeful about
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: and to continue fighting for. So it was it was
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: it was good to hear him. It was good to
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: hear him. It was. What did you think? You know,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: I think in his endorsement of Biden and in those commencements,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: people sort of, you know, saw a lot of contrast
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: with Trump and he really didn't. I think some people
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: probably expected him to say something yesterday and he didn't.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: I thought it was fine. Like I didn't think he
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: needed the contrast with Trump yesterday because I think that
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: the moment was so much bigger and more important than that.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: But I don't know what you thought.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know this better probably than any other
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: person walking the planet with the possible exceptions of Cody
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: and Ben is Obama has a purpose when he speaks.
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: And his purpose here was to speak. to the young
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: people who are out there protesting, to the organizers, because
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: he sees himself in them, right? And he wanted to
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: put what they were doing into the arc of historical
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: societal change in America. And he wanted to speak to
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: them as someone who, when he was a very famous
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: United States senator, would be followed around when he went
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: into stores because he was a black man in America.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And he has spoken about that in the context of
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: these incidents of racial violence in this country. And, but
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: the thing that I also took from it that was
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: really important, which is, reminded me of something our friend
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Alyssa tweeted yesterday, which is, give me a community organizer
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: as president every time, which is, as a community organizer,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: he knows that progress is hard to come by and
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: you take it where you can get it, which is
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: why he had very specific things that he wanted mayors
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: to do and he wanted the protesters to ask mayors
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: to do. And, like, I thought that was very notable. Like,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: we have a A lot of work to do to
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: deal with the systemic racism that is driving everything that
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: has happened here. But there are some things we can
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: do right now that will make things better. And we
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: should take those now and keep fighting for the other stuff.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, one of the people who joined him
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: on that live stream was Brittany Packnett and talked about
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: eight can't wait, which is sort of eight sets of
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: reforms that mayors can implement right now regarding the use
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: of force. that can reduce violence by up to 72%.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: And he is just, you know, he is always inspiring,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: but he's also, the organizer in him also makes him pragmatic.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: And he knows that organizing requires strategy and discipline as
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: much as it requires passion and energy. And, you know,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: at one point he sort of took on the like,
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: I hear some people saying voting doesn't matter as much
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: as activism or activism is more important and it's not
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: an either or, it's a both and.
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: You need to be on the streets and then you
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: and then you need to translate that energy and that
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: passion into laws and reforms and people that you elect
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: into office.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: And the activism doesn't end on Election Day.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: You have to keep pushing after that.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: All right. Let's talk about Biden. On Tuesday, he delivered
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: a major speech in Philadelphia where he attacked Donald Trump's
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: response to the protests and proposed a number of policing reforms.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: The president held up the Bible at St. John's Church yesterday.
• 55:29
  Speaker 6: I just wish he opened it once in a while
• 55:31
  Speaker 6: instead of brandishing it. If he opened it, he could
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: have learned something. They're all called to love one another
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: as we love ourselves. It's really hard work, but it's
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: the work of America. Donald Trump isn't interested in doing
• 55:46
  Speaker 6: that work. Instead, he's preening and sweeping away all the
• 55:50
  Speaker 6: guardrails that have long protected our democracy, guardrails that have
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: helped make possible this nation's path to a more perfect union,
• 56:00
  Speaker 6: a union that constantly requires reform and rededication. And, yes,
• 56:06
  Speaker 6: the protest from voices that are mistreated, ignored, left out,
• 56:13
  Speaker 6: or left behind. But it is a union, a union
• 56:17
  Speaker 6: worth fighting for. And that's why I'm running for president.
• 56:22
  Speaker 6: In addition to the Bible, the President might also want
• 56:25
  Speaker 6: to open the U.S. Constitution once in a while. If
• 56:28
  Speaker 6: he did, he'd find a thing called the First Amendment.
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: And what it says in the beginning, it says, the
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition
• 56:40
  Speaker 6: their government for redress of grievances. That's kind of an
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: essential notion built into this country.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: President, that's America. That's America. No horses rising up on
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: their hind legs to push back peaceful protest. Not using
• 57:01
  Speaker 6: the American military to move against the American people. This
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: is a nation of values. Our freedom to speak is
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: a cherished knowledge that lives inside every American almost from
• 57:14
  Speaker 6: the time you're a kid.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: What did you think of the speech?
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: It was a real reminder that for the last three
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: and a half years, we haven't had a president, right?
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: There is someone who sleeps in the president's bed, someone
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: who flies on the president's plane, someone who sits at
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: the desk of the president's office, but is not president.
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: That is the speech the president should have given after
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: all of this happened. And Trump did not do that, right?
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: He did the exact opposite of that. And the visuals
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: were really interesting because we've had to, since the day
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: Biden became our nominee, we have essentially been looking at
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: him in front of the same bookshelves in this very
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: conscribed environment. And when he's standing there, you know, with
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: the flags and with the imagery and the podium, you
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: could see him as the president that we need right
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: at this moment.
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: That was just from a, like a speech visuals perspective. Um,
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: that was my first reaction. It was, it was so
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: good to see him out of the house. Um, you know,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: and just to see him at a podium and see,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: you know, and like, I, I do think And, you know,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about this in a second, but I think
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: that's sort of going to be the strategy going forward
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: for that campaign. I thought in terms of the content
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: of the speech, he really met the moment. And there is,
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: you know, I've noticed a bit of a transformation going
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: on in the Biden campaign and with Biden for quite
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: some time now, which is, and you saw it in
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: the speech, he wasn't just taking on Trump, he was
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: taking on Trumpism altogether. And, you know, he named sort
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: of the selfishness and fear that have loomed over national
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: life for the last three years as two of the
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: enemies we're facing, bigger than Trump. He's also in that
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: speech framing the election as a definitional battle over what
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: kind of America we want to be and sort of
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: wrapping history into that, as Obama always used to do
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: as well, and it's the best presidents do. And so
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: basically saying to people, yes, we are the country of
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: slavery and racism and Bull Connor and George Wallace, that
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: that's part of who we are also. But we're also
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass and Martin Luther King Jr.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: And he listed all these sort of people throughout American history.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: And That is a much truer and bigger framing of
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: the election that significantly raises the stakes for people and
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: the urgency. And it gets to, I think, something you've
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: been saying, which is, yes, voters may end up seeing
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: this as a referendum on Donald Trump's presidency, but to
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: sort of meet the moment and the enormity of the
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: challenges we're facing, Biden has to paint a vision of
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: two different kinds of countries for people to get them
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: to go out and vote so that it's not just
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is bad, but what Donald Trump stands for
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: and what Donald Trump is the logical conclusion of is
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: what we're fighting against in this election. And that our
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: version of America, the best of America that you can
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: sort of see throughout different moments in history. is what
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: this election is about, is what we're fighting for in
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: this election. And I think he did that incredibly well.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: And it's tied to who he authentically is as a
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: person and his personal experiences, right? He is a person
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: who authentically understands pain and tragedy and how you recover
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: from it. And that came through. I thought it was
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: a one of the best speeches I've ever seen Biden give.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I thought it was... It met the moment from a
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: view of the presidential leadership we're lacking, but also had
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: a very specific narrative about Trump. It really leaned into
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: the Trump first, America last message that we've been talking about.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: And that's sort of the first time I've seen him
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: make that case in such an explicit way. And I
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: was very.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I was moved by the speech and I was, you know,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: maybe it really, it rate like you're exactly right for
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of the primary, the stakes of the election
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: were just like, who can beat Trump? I mean, whoever
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: was doing the best in the polls could be, be
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Trump into, I think sometimes the Biden campaign leaned too
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: far into that argument, but this, this, this made, this
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: was a speech that raised the stakes and met the
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: moment of what we're facing as a country. And I
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: thought it was great.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, later in the speech, you know, he says, um,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I wish I could say this hate began with Donald
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Trump and will end with him. It didn't and it won't.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: American history isn't a fairy tale with a guaranteed happy ending.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: The presidency is a big job. Nobody will get everything right.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I won't either. But I promise you this. I won't
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: traffic and fear and division. I won't blame others. I'll
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: never forget that the job isn't about me. It's about you.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: It's about us. I mean, he comes close to basically
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders' slogan at the end of that. And at
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: the beginning, saying that hate didn't begin and won't end
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: with Donald Trump is almost... a refutation of his earlier
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: sort of campaign message. But I think it is the
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: right one for the moment. And I think he can
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: sort of fill that role very well. I mean, we
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: should talk about sort of like the policy transformation that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: may or may not come with it. The Washington Post
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: wrote about this after the speech, quote, Biden has pointed
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: towards a transformational era in which government would play a
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: bigger role in carrying the country's public health, economic and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: racial woes. Far from the incremental administration he promised on
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: the primary campaign trail, Biden now offers Franklin Delano Roosevelt,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: architect of the post-Great Depression New Deal, as a role
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: model for tackling the damage wrought by the coronavirus pandemic
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: that has killed more than 100,000 Americans and put millions
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: out of work, as well as the enduring effects of
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: systemic racism being changed by a newly energized protest movement.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: And of course, in this speech, This week, he talked
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: about some police reforms like banning police from using chokeholds,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: the demilitarization of police forces and creating model use of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: force standards. He said in the first 100 days of
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: his presidency, he'd create a national oversight commission for policing
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: and called on every police department in the country to
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: review their hiring, training, and de-escalation practices. What do you
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: think of sort of the policy angle in this? How
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: do you read this transformation? Or is it a transformation?
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: It is certainly a transformation of necessity, right? I think
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Biden is, I'm not saying he's being, he's putting the
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: cart before the horse here, but I think as someone
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: who has been in government his whole life and worked
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: in the White House for eight years, he spends a
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: lot of time thinking about what he would do as president,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: how to have a successful presidency, how to actually deal
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: with the set of challenges that he's going to face.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: And like Obama, Biden is going to enter the White
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: House as the president of a country that looks very
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: different than the one he hoped to lead when he
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: started his campaign. And, you know, and I think what
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: has always been true about Biden, it is the point
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: that Elizabeth Warren made about him and her endorsement, which
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: is he is someone who was always willing to revisit
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: his prior beliefs. And he had one view about how
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: to do things prior to the situation we're in. And
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: now he's adjusting that. And what that's going to mean
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: in terms of policy is something that, you know, we're
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: going to I think everyone should stay tuned for. People
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: should be realistic that it doesn't. mean that he's all
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: of a sudden going to adopt all of Bernie Sanders' policies.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: But I think you can expect that he's going to
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: take a different and more aggressive approach. And if and
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: when this election is won, it's going to be incumbent
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: upon everyone involved and all the activists out there to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: hold him accountable for pushing for those things that they
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: believe we need, that sort of FDR-like presidency.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: And this entire episode is a lesson for activists and
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: organizers that, you know, one of the big reasons that
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden will adopt some of these police reforms and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: criminal justice reforms is because you pushed because you were
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: in the streets and it works, right? Like it doesn't,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: it's not going to work on Donald Trump, right? Donald Trump,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: his second term of Donald Trump doesn't matter, you know,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: you're going to be in the streets, he's going to
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: tear gas you. Joe Biden as president When you push
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: and you go into the streets and you protest and
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: you meet with him and you push him, it's going
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: to work. It won't work as much as you might like,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: but it will work and you will see progress. And
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's a good lesson for everyone. Where does
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Biden go from here? How does he keep getting attention?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: How does he sort of broaden and sharpen his argument
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: against Trump and for himself on sort of the whole
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: range of issues?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: This is a huge challenge for anyone taking on an
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: incumbent president. And it's particularly a challenge taking on Trump,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: who has the world's largest media platform, cable TV, the
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: entire digital ads economy all on his side here. And
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Biden suffered from this. Here you have the person that
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: polls say is most likely to be the next president
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: of the United States, has a town hall event on
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: Monday on the very issue that is dominating news coverage,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: and none of the cable networks took him live. They
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: took his speech the next day live, but they did
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: not take that one.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: Because everyone yelled at them. Yes.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: If Donald Trump had been the challenger against an incumbent
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton in that situation, they 100%
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: would have taken him live. And so that is the
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: challenge for Biden. And it's going to require developing strategies
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: that we've talked about a thousand times that go beyond
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: just simply relying on the benevolence of CNN and MSNBC
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: to carry his events live. But it's also about making news, right?
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: There was real news in that speech. And he's going
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: to have some big opportunities coming up. Most notably, Friday
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: is Jobs Day, where the job numbers will come out.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: It'll probably be the worst unemployment report in American history.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: And it's an opportunity to talk about where we go
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: from here and how that would be different. And he
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: will certainly benefit from being out of his house. But
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: he now has a wave of momentum. He has a
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: press narrative based on the polls, which says that he
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: is– likely to be the next president, therefore deserves coverage.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: And so they're going to have to keep building on that,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: but it's going to have to give people, Donald Trump
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: can show up and get coverage because there's always a
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: chance Donald Trump will stumble into making news by saying
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: something insane. People don't think that about Joe Biden. Newsmakers
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: do not. So he has to have something to say,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: tell people what he's going to say in advance and
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: sort of work the system to ensure that he's quote
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: unquote making news, which is a hard thing to do
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: because inventing news to talk about every day is quite
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: challenging as we know better than most.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can always react to whatever crazy thing
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump is doing, which will get you news and
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: get you covered. But you're right, short of like new
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: policy announcements, which at some point in the campaign run out,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: you know, you have to figure out ways, more creative
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: ways to make news. I do think, you know, as
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: the race has joined, he'll become the nominee, he'll select
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: his VP. Like it gets a little easier as the
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: race heats up to sort of get covered because they'll
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: just cover every day as what Trump said, what Biden said.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: But He has handled the response to this latest crisis, like,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: you know, exactly as I hoped he would, you know,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't, I think they did a very,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: very good job.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: There's going to be some, there are going to be
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: some empty spots in the New York times op-ed page
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: for unsolicited advice for the Biden campaign right now, because
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: they have had a very, very, a very strong week.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: And for all of the hand-wringing that everyone and source
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: included have done, we should, they should also get a
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: pat on the back for meeting the moment.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: And look, There will be other times that'll be much tougher, right?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: The media narrative does not stay. Donald Trump is screwed
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: and look at Joe Biden surging from fucking June till November. Impossible.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: It'll change 40 times until then. And so, you know,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: the real test of the campaign will be how you
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: meet the tougher moments when the narrative turns against you.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: I can already hear myself screaming about when the Quinnipiac
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: poll goes from Biden plus 10 to Biden plus five
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: and all the stories turn to Trump comeback narrative. using
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: the skills garnered from a career in reality television. Donald
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: Trump has turned this campaign on its head.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: There's going to be a Peter Baker story that makes
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: us really mad. A couple of Axios headlines, you know.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: When we come back, We will have Dan's conversation with
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: Latasha Brown.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: I'm joined now by organizer and a co-founder of the
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: Black Voters Matter Fund, Latasha Brown. Latasha, it's great to
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: talk to you again.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: This has been such a challenging time from coronavirus to
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: police brutality to the changes in the economy. I just
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: wanted to get your reaction to the moment we're in
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: and what you're hearing from the voters and folks out
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: there that you were talking to on a daily basis.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot going on right now. We've
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: got to pause.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 7: There's a, you know, there's a multiple set of crises
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 7: that are going on right now. You know, and with
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 7: great pain, though, comes great possibility. So I think what
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 7: we're seeing right now is that people are frustrated. We're
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 7: seeing this frustration that while, you know, there was a
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 7: George Floyd murder that we all witnessed in real time,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 7: you know, it actually taps into something deeper, a deeper
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 7: pain of how we've gone years without really dealing with
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 7: structural racism in this country, police brutality, and all those
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 7: things that we're, that country seems to not deal with.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 7: And so I think in this moment, I think there
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 7: is a, while it's really uncomfortable, for all of us,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 7: that that's part of, that is pointing to a real
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 7: possibility for us to get this country on the right road.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 7: That fundamentally, we just kind of keep trudging along like
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 7: things are okay, and they're not okay. And what we're
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 7: seeing now is the evidence of them not being okay.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 7: And so this week, you know, I've really been, it's
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 7: been hard to sleep. You know, we've been getting a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 7: just personally, just as a black woman in America, it's
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 7: been very difficult and hard for me. And also being
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 7: a mother of a 26 year old black male has
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 7: been very difficult for me, but also being an organizer.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 7: And I'm hearing I'm hearing folks on the ground being
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 7: intensified like they're up to here.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 5: You know, it's one thing that we're dealing with two
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: major crises.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 7: So you've got one crisis dealing with COVID-19, and now
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 7: we've got this whole other crisis that we're dealing where
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 7: we feel like we are under attack, that essentially the American.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 5: Government has declared war on its citizens.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 7: We can fix it up however we want to, right?
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 7: But when you're doing a peaceful protest that is actually
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 7: guaranteed in the Constitution, and the president of this country
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 7: actually sit tear gas just so he can make a
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 7: photo op. That's in countries, that's a dictatorship, that's fascism.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 7: And for us to normalize that really speaks to how
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 7: far we've fallen. You know, and so I think in
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 7: the midst of that, you know, diamonds are cold under
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 7: extreme pressure, right? We know that, and we know that
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 7: the way that glass is made is glass is sand
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 7: that's been fired.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 5: And so I think at the end of the day, what.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 7: We are seeing, we're seeing this moment It's a crystallizing
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 7: moment in American history that we will either go backwards,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 7: tremendously like backwards, right, far, or we will go forward.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 7: And so I think there's a couple of, you know,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 7: a couple of key pieces. One, what is giving me
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 7: so much hope is I'm looking at, I'm talking to folks,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 7: I'm looking at the protest lines. It is multicultural, it's multiracial, multigenerational.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 7: So it is, it's not just black people. But they're
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 7: the citizens of this country are acknowledging that there is
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 7: something fundamentally wrong in this country and that we've got
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 7: to fix it.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 5: And that gives me hope.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: The focus of your work over the last many years
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: has been about trying to get African-American voters engaged in
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: the political process. You said something to me when we
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: spoke before the 2018 election that has stuck with me.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: And I think about all the time, which is that
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: non-voters are not apathetic. They are making a conscious decision
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: that the politics does not work for them. The system
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: does not work for them. Do you think this moment
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: has the potential to show people the importance of getting
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: involved in politics or could have the opposite effect?
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 5: No, I absolutely think so.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 7: I think the protests and the demonstrations are actually evidence
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 7: that people are not apathetic. People who are apathetic don't care,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 7: don't go to the streets in the middle of a
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 7: pandemic and put themselves at risk. So what we're seeing, right,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 7: the uprisings that we're seeing all over this country, there
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 7: were protests in all 50 states. There are protests that
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 7: have gone on. We're like on day nine, if I'm
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 7: not mistaken. That in itself is evidence and is primarily
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 7: led by young people. And there's always this conversation around
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 7: young people are apathetic, they're not engaged. The bottom line
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 7: is that is evidence of young people do care. And
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 7: so the question is, how do we take this moment
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 7: and really take that energy and direct some of that
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 7: energy in a way that it is around electoral politics.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 7: Because the bottom line is many people are just turned
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 7: off from this damn process. They don't think it's fair.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 7: They don't think that their voices are being heard. They
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 7: don't see the kind of candidates that they wanna see.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 7: And so what we see, we saw that in the
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 7: AOC race. We saw that in the Ayanna Pressley race.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 7: We even saw that in Georgia and Stacey Abrams race.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 7: where you had more voters to come out and young
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 7: voters in a cross section of racial diversity and gender diversity,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 7: and also age diversity, people are looking for something different.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 5: And so I think that this is the opportune time
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: for us to.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 7: Like literally hold the parties accountable, both parties, political parties,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 7: that we've got to hold them accountable that the people
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 7: are screaming for something different. And so young folks, I
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 7: think this is the the opportune time. This is how
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 7: people are getting activated. There are folks getting activated. I
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 7: can just tell you, even from Black Voters Matter, in
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 7: the last three days, we've gotten so many volunteer requests
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 7: that we've literally got to expand and do a whole
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 7: nother program of our volunteers. Folks are trying to look
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 7: for how can they be engaged. And it's moments like
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 7: this that actually activate generations. We know that there was
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 7: a generation of folks that were activated in the civil
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 7: rights movement, young people. We know that there were a
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 7: generation of people who were activated in Vietnam in the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 7: 70s around the Vietnam War. This is one of those
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 7: quintessential moments that people are being activated. It is up
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 7: to us as organizers and organizations that are doing civic
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 7: engagement and power building work to really be able to
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 7: tap into that energy and allow this process to be
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 7: real for people so that we're not leading and being
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 7: tone deaf and just saying, oh, you just gotta vote
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 7: because it's gonna fix it. Because nobody believes that because
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 7: it's not true, right? But what we can say is
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 7: that we know that voting can make a difference because
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 7: voting can make a decision on who the DA is
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 7: and this is how it can be connected.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 5: Voting can make a difference in terms of who the police.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 7: Chief, who the people who are making these decisions And
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 7: so I think it's the connection of taking this conversation
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 7: out of participation and making this conversation be in the
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 7: context of power. That's what young people want to hear about,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 7: not just the participation part. They're literally looking at how
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 7: does my participation lend itself for me and my community
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 7: having more power and more agency so that the people
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 7: in office feel responsive to us.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 5: And our needs.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: What would your message be to Democratic leaders, including Vice
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: President Joe Biden, about the right way to speak to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: voters in this moment?
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 7: I think the writing is on the wall. I mean,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 7: I think it's three things. One that I just said,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 7: I think part of what we've been hearing this message,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 7: just think about it.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 5: This message is, you.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 7: Know, just vote, like vote, vote. You don't take care
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 7: of everything. Just vote, vote for me and I'm going
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 7: to take care of everything. That is not how government works.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 7: We're not like that. And let me say that I
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 7: think that there's been a paradigm shift. that at one
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 7: point it was about getting this charismatic leader that could
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 7: just get on the white horse and take us on
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 7: into a political glory land. Nobody believes that. Let's just
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 7: be honest. Nobody believes that it hasn't happened. It's impossible
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 7: for it to happen, right? Even when you look at,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 7: and I know in the Obama campaign, one of the
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 7: things that I want to lift up that was interesting
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 7: is while he was a popular charismatic leader, his campaign
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 7: message was, yes, we can.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 5: It wasn't, yes, I can.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 5: And I'm quite sure that was intentional. I know you
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 5: got the inside on that, right?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 7: It was a way of engaging people that it was
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 7: a collective, us tapping and using our collective power. I
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 7: think what we've got to see, even from the Biden campaign,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 7: is it's not about having the perfect candidate.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 5: It's not about this is what Biden can do. He
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 5: can just beat Trump.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 7: But literally, we've got to tap into people want to
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 7: be a part of the governance process, that there has
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 7: to be a campaign that that as he goes forward,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 7: there are three things that I think he can do. One,
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 7: I think the campaign should be centered around a message
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 7: that is really about inclusive of the power of we,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 7: of the citizens, not just I or the best candidate,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 7: and I'm going to save y'all, but ultimately, literally about we.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 7: The second thing is I think it's really important that
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 7: now with all that is going on, particularly since he
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 7: has been attached to his work around the crime bill.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 7: And we have not forgotten about that. And people will
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 7: continue to raise that, that this is the opportunity for
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 7: him to lead now, not saying what I'm going to
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 7: do when I'm in office, but that in this vacuum
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 7: of leadership that we're seeing, and I think we saw
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 7: a start of that. I thought his speech the other day,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 7: I think was the beginning of that, but really to
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 7: be able to take bold steps and recommendations of what
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 7: he's going to do to address the critical cry of
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 7: citizens around crime criminal justice reform.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 5: I mean, we've gotta have some bold steps. It's not
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 5: gonna be enough.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 7: Let me say, it is not going to be enough
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 7: to arrest the officers and think that people are going
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 7: to go back to their respective corners and we're going
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 7: to be okay. Because we've seen that play itself out
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 7: over and over again. The reason why the protests continue
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 7: to go is because people are saying that's not enough.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 5: That's just a start.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 7: What we want to see is a complete rehaul of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 7: the criminal justice system. We want a complete realignment and
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 7: we're re-imagining around the police.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 5: Their folks are asking for the police to be defunded.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 7: Right now because we don't, we're not gonna use our
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 7: tax money to actually support folks to kill and traumatize
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 7: and harass us. So I think that there's also that
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 7: from the democratic part and the leadership they've got to
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 7: step into the void of leadership that the day is
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 7: over of politics as usual, that's over with. That paradigm
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 7: has been shifted. What we have seen all the energy
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 7: is that there is, they can ignore the progressive wing
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 7: of the party if they want to, but regardless of
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 7: what do you think about the candidates, what we saw
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 7: in the Bernie Sanders campaign is there was a lot
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 7: of energy, a lot of young folks, a lot of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 7: the progressive, you cannot ignore that wing of the party.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 7: And ultimately, there is a bold, young, committed group of
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 7: progressive voters that are saying it is not good enough
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 7: for the Democratic Party to continue to chase after the
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 7: mythical white moderate voter that has not showed up in
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 7: 20 years. And so what we've got to do is
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 7: actually really respond to the future. I think part of that, too,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 7: is we've got to have a party that is reflective
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 7: of the base of the party.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 5: The fact that we are, I just want to just
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 5: note this.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 7: The fact that Black women have been the base of
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 7: the party and literally the most responsive and engaged base
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 7: of the party for the last 50 years, and we
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 7: have not had a Black woman on the Supreme Court
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 7: as a pick or nominee or a Black woman in
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 7: one of those offices.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: Let's just flip it for a second.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 7: What world would white men be the absolute base of
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 7: any political, any party, any institution or anything for 50
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 7: years and there was no representation of their leadership.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 5: It would be unconscionable. So my point is at some
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 5: point we're at a reckoning moment.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 7: That in this moment is not even about saying representation
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 7: or like one of the things that I've been asking
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 7: for is about the campaign to consider a black woman
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 7: as VP, it's not in a context of saying that
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 7: it hurt. We actually think it brings value, that people
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 7: are looking for a party that is going to be representative,
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 7: that has a depth of understanding, that can bring a
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 7: broad base of people together. That's where we are right now.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 7: And so what I think we're not seeing is, in
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 7: some ways, I always love to bring the.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 5: Blockbuster Netflix mode. Blockbuster Netflix did the same thing. Both
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 5: of them brought theater, home theater, to their customers. Same thing.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 7: Blockbuster was in position. They had it on lock, right?
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 7: They were on the stock market. They had physical places everywhere,
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 7: brick and mortar space. I mean, you couldn't go down
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 7: the street without seeing a big blue Blockbuster piece, right?
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 5: Here comes the law. They had the opportunity. They had
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 5: an advantage, but they were so caught up. Now, of course,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 5: this is my assessment, right?
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 7: They were so caught up and continuing to do business
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 7: the way that they had been doing business, that they
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 7: couldn't see that on the horizon, that there was this,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 7: Netflix was saying, we're not gonna have any of that.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 5: Like what we're gonna do.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 7: Is be able to provide the same service in a
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 7: different kind of way. It's gonna be distinctively different and
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 7: change the culture, but we're gonna provide, and who exists
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 7: right now? Netflix is flourishing, Blockbuster is gone. My point
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 7: is we can't do Blockbuster politics. the politics of yesterday
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 7: around let's find this super candidate that can beat Trump
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 7: And let's just get behind this message that is going
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 7: to be a safe message. That is not going to
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 7: cut it.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 5: We're in a new era. We're in a new paradigm.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 7: And so if the Democrats are really trying to solidify,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 7: and it's not just about winning this election, it's really
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 7: about shaping the politics of this country going forward so
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 7: that it is inclusive and that it is just and
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 7: it is equitable. And they have the prime... they're in
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 7: a position that Blockbuster was. They got an advantage because
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 7: people are with them and they can actually make that transition.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: But it's going to be up to the leadership to
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 5: see what they do.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: Latasha, before I let you go, on with your very
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: busy day. And then I go explain to our very
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: young producers what Blockbuster is. I want to, I know
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of our listeners will want to get involved
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: and see how they can help you and your organization.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: What's the best way for someone who's listening to this
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: today to help Black Voters Matter in your work?
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 7: So the best way to do that is where you
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 7: can reach out to us on our website, Black Voters,
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 7: that's V-O-T-E-R-S, matter, M-A-T-T-E-R, fund, F-U-N-D.org. We're very active on
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 7: social media, on Twitter, Black Voters MTR. On Facebook, we
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 7: actually have weekly town halls throughout all the 11 states
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 7: that we're working in. We're working in all the states
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 7: in the South, in Michigan and Pennsylvania, and we're doing
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 7: some work, some Target work in other communities. So please,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 7: we're actually recruiting volunteers. We've been raising money. We've got
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 7: a fund set up to help bail some of the
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 7: peaceful protesters out. We also are doing some COVID-19, but
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 7: we're literally on the ground doing the work. We are
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 7: committed to turning this not into a space around participation,
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 7: but power. Like even in the Constitution, it says that
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 7: when government no longer serves you, you ought to replace
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 7: it or to abolish it. What we're saying is the
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 7: government is supposed to be other people for.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 5: The people and by the people. This is our moment.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 7: This is our time to take all of this energy
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 7: right now and really turn it into a vision. Let's
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 7: reimagine America and really think about how do we build
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 7: America that we all deserve. And so I just encourage
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 7: people to please follow us, Black Voters Matter. You can
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 7: also follow me, Ms. LaTosha Brown, Ms. LaTosha Brown. I'm
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 7: very active as well.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 5: And so we will literally, we're building troops. We're taking
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 5: this energy right now.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 7: We're trying to take this energy and really transform this
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 7: energy in something that is going to be for the
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 7: best of all.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 5: Of us in this country.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: LaTosha, thank you so much for joining us. And we'll
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: be sure to talk to you again as this election proceeds.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 5: Sounds great. Thank you for having me.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you to Latasha Brown for joining us today. And everyone,
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: try your best to have a good weekend.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: every week.