Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / Cindy James and the Invisible Man - Part 2

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Cindy James and the Invisible Man - Part 2 · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Last episode, we began discussing the case of Cindy James
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: and the Invisible Man. Today, we're going to be continuing
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: on with part two. To be sure to listen to
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: part one first, because trust me, it's worth it and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: it's a case where you're gonna need to listen to
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: all of it.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked Ingram,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: a true crime podcast.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: The following podcast material intended more mature audience. Listener discretion
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: is advised. It's part two day question. Did you guys
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: wait to binge it do all? Or did you actually
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: listen to the day like Tuesday when it came out
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: and you're waiting for today to come out now too?
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Like are you a separate it kind of person?
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Wait, you didn't well, I mean you don't have a choice.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: But I actually sat down here completely forgetting that we
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: were on a part two, which is kind of funny
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: because usually I do not.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a good feeling then, because it's like,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: oh right, I get to like catch up on.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: This, yeah, and it kind of like came back to
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: me the you know, part one, and I'm like, oh yeah,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I got a little excited there.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Which that's good and I think we should dive right
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: into this. So let's cud all the bullshit. I'm going
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: to give you the little rundown recap. So last episode,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: we began talking about Cindy James and the stocking that
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: she was enduring. Now there was some suspicion that it
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: could have been her ex husband, ROI make peace, but
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Cindy kind of disagreed with that. She didn't think it
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: was him. She kind of was like, no, we're on
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: good terms and everything, despite her earlier claims that they
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: weren't because he was abusive in their relationship. But now
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the stalking. It led to some traumatic phone calls, disturbing
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: letters being delivered to her place, potentially even someone entering
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: her home as she claimed, and most recently, even an
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: encounter where her friend found her right after an attack
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: had occurred in her home where she was drug into
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: her garage and assaulted by two individuals and she was
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: left found with nylons tied around her neck and absolutely terrified.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Now police were beginning to have their doubts about these
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: encounters and the information that Cindy was actually giving them,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: so they asked her to have a poly or to
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: take a polygraph test, and this showed that the police
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: were right. Cindy was indeed not sharing everything that she knew.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: There was some shady things going on, to say the least.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: And that's where we left off.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, yeah, we knew that she was hiding something
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: from the police, but we don't really necessarily know what
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: extent or what awake exactly.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: The police discovered with this polygraph test that she's hiding something,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: but we haven't discussed what just yet. So let's talk
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: about that now. After these polygraph tests with the RCMP,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Cindy was confronted with the results, it was clear she
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: knew more than she was letting on. When officers pressed
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: her for answers, she finally broke down through tears. She
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: admitted that she did recognize both of her attackers during
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: the recent assault when she was found in her garage,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: but when asked to name the men, she refused. Okay, now,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: this was beyond frustrating for police. For months, For months,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: they had poured time and resources into investigating her case.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: You know, they're chasing leads, trying to protect her, and
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: now after all that Cindy was sitting here on crucial
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: information and refusing to share it. So she was truly
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: terrified that like, you know, identifying her attacker could like
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: take away that danger right totally. So why wouldn't she
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: do that? Why did she continue to report all these
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: incidents and like when she has the information that could
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: stop it. So it's hard to say why. But if
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: she believe naming them would get someone hurt, maybe you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: maybe her family.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Or something, okay, or they were threatening her in some way,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: oh right, yeah, it could be.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: It could be a reason why. But it felt like
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a game to police that she's playing now. At the
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: same time, Cindy couldn't bear to stay in her house
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: any longer. The memory of what had happened there was
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: just too much for her. So she made a drastic decision.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: She moved back in with her ex husband Roy make Peace.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: She believed that despite everything, Roy could protect her if
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: anything had happened now. Roy welcomed her back and was
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: just as frustrated as Cindy about the lack of protection
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: from police. He had stayed updated on what had been
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: going on, and in his mind, it was clear that
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: the police weren't doing enough to help Cindy, but officers
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: still have their suspicions about him. Many of them believed
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: that Roy was behind the harassment all along, trying to
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: manipulate Cindy into coming back into a relationship with him.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, I just literally had that thought like a second ago.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: This theory, however, started to crack when less than a
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: week after moving in with Roy, Cindy received another threatening letter,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: and the note read quote, run rabbit, run, I'll show
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: you how good I am soon soon bang bang, You're
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: dead creepy.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, I just need a slight clarification. Is she still
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: with She's not with that other man, the like investigator.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: The private investigator. I believe she still is. Yes, Oh okay,
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: they're not living together. I mean, of course she's now
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: living with Roy. Yeah, but I believe that they're still together.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot of documentation exactly on like
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: when their relationship ended or how long it lasted, but
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, they dated for a while. Still.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, that can't be going well if she's like
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: just moved back in with her ex y, I can't
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: see that going overly.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Well, she might not be with him anymore. It's kind
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: of hard to tell, okay. Now, disturbing calls were also
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: starting to come again, all from the same voice. This time,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: the caller described in graphic detail exactly how he planned
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: to kill her. Now, after two months, Cindy realized that
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: moving back in with Roy hadn't made her any safer
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: at all. If anything, it had proven that whoever was
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: stalking her wasn't just some bitter x it was someone
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: who would follow her no matter where she went. So
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: by this point she had moved four times in less
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: than a year, and still the stalker found her every
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: single time she moved. Cindy followed the police's advice. She
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: kept her private information locked down, only sharing her whereabouts
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: with close family, and yet it didn't seem to matter.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: No matter where she went, she wasn't safe, and this
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: stalker would find her. As summer approached, Cindy was a
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: shell of her former self. The stress, the fear, the
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: constant moving was wearing down on her. In an effort
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: to help, Roy paid for Cindy to go take a
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: trip out of the country and visit her brother in Karta.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: He hoped that a break from all this might help
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: her fee feel normal once again, and even if it
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: was just for a little while. Right, and for the
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: first time in months, Cindy finally felt safe. There were
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: no calls, no letters, no threats. She could only just
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: begin to start breathing again. That relief, that weight off
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: her shoulders.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: That would be an amazing feeling.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she wasn't constantly looking back behind her, you know,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: worrying about her safety. But unfortunately that piece didn't last.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: When she returned home, she found a note waiting for
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: her that read quote, welcome back, death, blood, hate, et cetera.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: It was sloppier than the previous threats, almost as if
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: even her stalker was kind of getting tired of the situation.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: You know. But Cindy wasn't the same woman who had left.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: She was done waiting like a sitting duck. She decided
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: she was going to take action on this situation. She
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: painted her car a new color so it wouldn't be recognizable.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: She changed her hairstyle, She started carrying a portable panic button,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: oil and pepper spray everywhere she went. Anything that she
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: could do to protect herself or change the situation.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, go, Cindy, YEP.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: And most importantly, she now hired the private investigator. Sorry,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: before it wasn't a private investigator, it was an RCMP member.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: The private investigator is now being hired Ozzie Kubat. Now
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Ozzie was looking into the case. Cindy no longer trusted
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the police to help her, so she took matters again
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: into her own hands. Right but despite her best efforts,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: the stalker kept finding ways to reach her. These letters
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: started arriving at her workplace as well. Cindy tried to
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: keep calm and assure her coworkers it was just a prank,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: she said. She wasn't worried because as long as she's
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: around other people, you know, she's safe. She's fine. But
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: as the threats crept closer to her workplace, she started
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: realizing just how much of her life was at risk.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Then these threats, of course, became more physical. That fall,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Cindy came home to find a dead cat on her
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: front porch. A note was placed behind it that said
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: You're next. It was the first of three dead cats
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: that would be left on her property.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: What the shit? What are the cats have to do
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: with this?
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Who knows. Two weeks after finding that dead cat.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Her garden, which was like her only source of stress
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: relief at the time, was completely destroyed. When she went
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: to the police, they still had nothing. Once again, the
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: RCMP circled back to the same question, Could Roy be
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: the one behind all of this? Could he be the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: one who's actually, you know, stalking his ex and causing
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: these issues. Cindy was as firm as always, No, she said,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Roy wasn't capable of this. It has to be someone else.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: But her private journals, within them, in Cindy's own words,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: they seemed to tell a different story. In one journal.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: In one entry, she wrote about how during their marriage,
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Roy had deliberately destroyed the garden that she she kept
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: at their home, a garden that of course meant the
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: world to her. And now with her current stalker ripping
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: apart her garden in the new place, it's kind of
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: hard not to see the parallel for sure, right it
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: almost felt like a signature that Roy was leaving behind,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: taunting her if you may.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: And don't mess with people's gardens, that is that is brutal,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: no kidding, I would be freaking pissed.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: In November of nineteen eighty three, Patrick McBride who was
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: the RCMP officer that she was seeing, stopped by Cindy's
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: house and discovered yet another threatening note left in her porch.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: That same week, two more dead cats were found in
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: the yard, each one accompanying by another sinister message. The
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: harassment was relentless, and it escalated almost weekly, though never
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: quite reaching the same level as a physical attack Cindy
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: had endured earlier that year. When police asked Cindy why
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: she thought the stalker hadn't made another direct attempt at
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: her life and was now resorting to these note threats
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: in the phone calls and these sort of things again
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: instead of, you know, actually at her, right, she told
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: them she believed that this person didn't actually want to
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: kill her outright. Instead, she believed that they wanted to
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: scare her to death.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I mean, how would she even sleep, you know,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: at night?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think I could, Yeah, with all that sort
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: of harassment, and like how it's escalating and how serious
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: it's getting, I don't know if I could.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: No.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Now, that explanation left investigators scratching their heads. You know,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: why would someone want to scare her to death or whatever? Right?
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: And even some of Cindy's closest friends were starting to
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: question her story. At first, her loved ones had been
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: overwhelmingly supportive, but after a year of these bizarre incidents,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: many of which seemed almost too perfectly timed, doubted or
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: doubts started to creep in. Even Ousie Kabban, the private
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: investigator Cindy had hired, couldn't shake the feeling that something
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: wasn't just adding up in this situation. Every threatening call
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: came when Cindy was alone, whether police tapped her foot
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: or not, like the calls were too short to trace
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: when that happened right. Every time the porch lights were
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: smashed or her windows were broken, there was no evidence
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: left behind, no fingerprints or footprints, and no one like
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: no one suspicious was spotted in the area either. Most
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: in settling of all, every time Cindy moved, her stalker
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: somehow got her new address almost immediately, even even though
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: she kept that information strictly within her immediate family. Cindy
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: knew people were losing faith in her story. She could
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: feel it the way condolences were being replaced with, you know,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: side eye and polite but skeptical smiles like oh yeah,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: oh that sucks.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Stuff, right, that's not a good feeling.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: The worst part was knowing some people believed she was
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: making the whole thing up. Now Kaban the private investigator,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: He tried to stay supportive, but even he told Cindy
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: that if she wanted this help, he needed actual proof,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: something hard, something undeniable, something tangible, you know, and that
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: he gave her a two way radio to carry, you know,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: at all times while she's home alone. When something happens,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: you know, that way she could immediately call for help.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: So at first the radio seemed like it was just
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: mostly a formality, but command didn't expect much to come
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: of it, sort of thing. But on January thirtieth, nineteen
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: eighty four, everything changed. Late that night, he was jolted
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: awake by a strange noise. It was crackling through the radio.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Without hesitation, he jumped into his car and drove straight
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: to Cindy's house. When he got inside, he found her
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: collapsed face down in the hallway with a pairing knife
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: stabbed straight through her hand, pinning a note.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Oh whoa okay.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: The note was made just like before from cutout magazine
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: letters and read quote, now you must die.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Oh that's really, really, really alarming.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: As he knelt down beside her, Cindy slowly started to
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: come too. Groggy and terrified. She told him the same
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: chilling story she would later repeat to police. She said
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: she heard someone outside. When she went to check, a
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: man forced his way in and attacked her. He struck
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: her in the head with something heavy, leaving her dazed
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: and barely conscious. While she drifted in and out, she
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: remembered feeling a needle jabbing into her arm. WHOA, Now
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: she was sure that she was injected with something that
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: knocked her out completely. Uh huh, But just like last time,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: the evidence didn't back up her story.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, because it's kind of odd that they wouldn't
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: have just done it then and there.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Agreed right now. To me, it almost seems like that
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: note isn't to her, it's like to someone else, right,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Because why would someone come into the house and attack
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: an individual and then leave a note for you that says,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: now you must die. Why wouldn't they just tell you
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: because they're right there. Why wouldn't they just kill you
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: because they're right there? That note is almost like forced
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: someone else to show, like, hey, someone's trying to kill me.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: You know, almost like a freight fake breadcrumb trail. Now,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: toxicology tests came back, and they came back completely clear.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: There were no drugs in cindy system. In fact, there
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: weren't even any puncture marks in her arms where she
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: claimed needle went in. And once again, there were no
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: signs of forced entry anywhere in the house. The whole
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: thing just, I mean, as I was kind of talking,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: felt staged.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, that seems really weird. Did she have
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a big bump on her head?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Uh, I'm not too sure. Actually, I'm not sure if
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: she had a big bump or anything, but just things
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: didn't quite add up.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no kidding.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Now, this time, though, Cindy gave the police something new.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: She provided a sketch of her attacker based on, you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the brief moments that she had seen his face. Now,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: whether the sketch was accurate or not is anyone's guests,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: especially since Cindy insisted she already knew the exact exact
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: person who was stalking her because she recognized them from
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the other attack, right, yeah, or she still refused to
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: name them, But at this point Cindy could help. The
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: walls closing in The police obviously weren't believing her, and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: her friends were losing trust as well, and even the
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: private investigator was he was not having his full investment.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: His doubts were definitely there. So she finally gave the
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: answer that you know, they seemed to be waiting for.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: She told them she believed her ex husband, Roy Makepeace,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: was the one behind everything.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, so she's changed her tune.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, after all that stalking, the attacks, the harassment, and
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: her defending her ex husband. She saying Roy is the
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: one who's behind it, and she believes that it's his
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: way of punishing her for leaving him and trying to
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: force her back into his life.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: That makes no sense though, because she even went about
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: moving in with him at some point.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So I just like, I don't like that exactly. Well,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: that's the big problem with all this. None of the story,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: none of the incidents, none of the stalking doesn't add up,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and none of it makes sense.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: But okay, Also, I guess maybe she was thinking, if
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I move in there, I'll be like safer, right, because
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I mean it kind of makes sense going back, right,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: and that happens a lot. But I don't know. Yeah,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: this is confusing as shit.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: But you would think that at least for a little while,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: those things would stop.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: When she was living there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Now she made this confession in nineteen eighty four on
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Valentine's Day. Actually just a little like tidbit of information.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: So it's an interesting, little uninteresting date, an interesting date.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: But I digress. Now, the police brought Roy make Peace
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: back in for questioning once again. You know, they pressed
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: him both in these accusations, and just like every other time,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Roy denied everything that they were bringing up to him.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: He's just like, Nope, not me. It's messed up. What's
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: going on. I'm not involved. You got the wrong guy
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: sort of thing.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Frustrated and desperate to protect his daughter, Otto decided to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: confront Roy himself. Now. Auto believed that if he could
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: sit down with Roy face to face, maybe he could
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: finally get him to slip up and emit something right.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: To make sure he had proof, Auto even wore a
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: hidden wire to record the conversation. Now, during the meeting,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Otto didn't hold back. He told Roy in no no
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: uncertain terms sorry, that he wasn't going to be allowed
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: anywhere near Cindy anymore, and he outright accused him of
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: being behind the whole campaign of threats and harassment. Roy
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: didn't confess. Instead, he offered up a wild theory of
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: his own. He claimed Cindy maybe being targeted by the mafia. Now,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: according to Roy, Cindy had somehow maybe crossed the wrong
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: people while working at the hospital, maybe getting involved with
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: a child from a mob connected family. Whatever. He was
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: so convinced he even wrote Auto a six page letters
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: laying out his whole theory and begging Otto to push
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: the police to investigate it. In the months that followed,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the phone calls kept coming. Cindy was receiving new obscene
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: calls and threatening notes almost every single day, but just
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: like before, the calls were too short for police to trace.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: At one point, RCMP officers decided to surveil Cindy's house.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: They wanted harp proof that she wasn't behind the harassment herself. Right, So,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: only Cindy and the officers involved knew about the operation.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: So in theory, if someone outside of law enforcement was responsible,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that have no way of knowing that they were being watched, right,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: and the police could catch this individual red handed. It
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: says many as fourteen officers took part in the surveillance. Right,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: So we have people going in shifts different times, up
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to fourteen different officers. But during all of those shifts,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: not a single suspicious person came near the house, No
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: strange cars drove by, no figures sneaking around. Nothing. Yet
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: every time the officers packed up and left, guess what happened? Seriously,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Cindy immediately called the police, claiming she'd received another call
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: or found a new note every single time.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Dang. Okay, But also if there is someone, I mean,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: they would know, right if like when the police did
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: pack up, But then the police you know, would also
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: see them in their car watching or whatever. Exactly, Okay,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And it's not like it can be a neighbor anymore
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: at this point too, if she's has relocated so many times.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm very I'm very confused now.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Cindy and her family insisted though this was part of
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the stalker's plan to make her look like she was
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: like crying wolf and going crazy, right, And I mean,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: there was no way anyone could have known exactly when
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: surveillance had ended or started unless they were part of
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the operation itself or someone inside Cindy's own circle knew.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, within the operation itself, that kind of makes sense.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have at least Cindy or a close
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: family member or an officer part of the surveillance team.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: At this point, the police were convinced though Cindy was
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: the one orchestrating the whole thing herself. When they made
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: that clear to her, Cindy withdrew even more convinced that
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: no one believed her and that she was truly alone. Then,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: on June eighteenth, nineteen eighty four, Cindy called Ozzie Caban,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the private investigator, and she was in a full blown panic.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: When he arrived at her house. She was trembling and
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: hiding in her garden, insisting someone had broken into her home. Now,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Caban led the way inside and Cindy was trailing behind him.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: They searched the house room by room, eventually making their
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: way into the basement, where they found Cindy's dog, Heidi,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: huddling in the corner. Now, the poor dog was visibly terrified,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and she had a noose tied around her neck. What
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Heidi had clearly been abused, and she was so shaken
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: and cowered in the Courrner. She would not even want
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: to approach Kaban or her owner, Cindy.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Oh the poor baby.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Now attached to this noose was a note reading happy Birthday,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: along with several pornographic photos.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Cool.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Over the next few weeks, calls, letters and threats continued,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and another dead cat was left on Cindy's left for
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Cindy to find. But then July first, something even stranger happened.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Two men showed up at her house posing as police officers.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Cindy immediately knew something was off. After everything she'd been through,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: she was on pretty much a first name basis with
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: almost every single local officer, right h these two were
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: total strangers to her. Before she even considered letting them inside,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Cindy told them that she was going to radio Ozzie Caban,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: the private investigator, to confirm their identify identities. Without saying
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: saying a word, both of the men bolted from her porch.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Oh okay.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Now, like so many incidents before, there was no evidence
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: to back up this story. This was just Cindy's words.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: There was no security footage, no witnesses, nothing. Two days later,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: on July third, Cindy checked in with Caban again over
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: the two a radio, letting him know that she was
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: going to take Heidi for a walk. Now he worried
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: about her safety, and you know, he warned her not
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: to go outside, but Cindy insisted she needed some fresh air.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Three and a half hours later, a stranger a mile
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: away from her house answered a knock at their door
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: to find Cindy standing there, battered and disoriented, with black
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: nylon stocking tied tightly around her neck. The moment the
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: door opened, Cindy collapsed on his front porch. Cindy was
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: able to speak, and she was giving a chilling account.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: While walking Hidie, she was approached by a green van
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: that pulled up beside her. Inside the van were a
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: bearded man and a blonde woman, both of whom she
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: claimed she had never seen before. The man was asking
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: for directions, and after that, Cindy said, everything went blank.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: She was immediately rushed to the hospital, and after being found,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: the doctors noted two needle marks on her arm. However,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: when toxicology results came back, the only substance found in
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: her system was a prescription antidepressant that she recently started taking.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: There were no traces of sedatives, tranquilizers, or any other
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: drug that might explain the blackout.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Hmmm, gosh, this is just getting more and more confusing.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: It's a kind of like, I don't know. You want
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to believe her, like you really do, oh one percent,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: but then I don't know. Yeah, it's just so weird
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: that this it's been going on this long, I guess,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: and that nothing has been able to be pinpointed. I
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: don't know. It is very confusing.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: I'm very conflicted in this because, like you say, you
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: want to believe her, Yeah, at the same time, how
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: do you believe her? You know what I mean?
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So, but I mean she would also be paying
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the private investigator, right, so she's like putting money into
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: this herself.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Oh ah.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Now, while Cindy was being treated, something strange happened. The
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: hospital receptionist informed police that she received a suspicious phone
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: call earlier that day. The caller had asked oddly specific
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: questions about hospital's security procedures, which left her feeling a
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: little uneasy, as if the person was on the like
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: on the other end, was planning something.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Now, police decided to play a recording that they had
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: of Roy make peace his voice to see if he
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: was maybe the one who had called. While the receptionist
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: couldn't be one hundred percent sure, she said that there
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: was a strong possibility that Roy was the man who
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: had called. Hoping to dig deeper into Cindy's trauma, Ozzie Cobban,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the private investigator, suggested that she try hypno therapy now.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: His theory was that if Cindy's conscious mind couldn't recall
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: useful details about her stalker, maybe her subconscious could, which
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: is often what hypnotherapy has used for. The first therapist
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Cindy saw, however, determined she was too emotionally fragile for
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: hypnotherapy to be reliable. The session took a bizarre turn
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: when Cindy suddenly claimed that she had witnessed a double
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: murder at some point in her life. The therapist, concerned
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: about her mental state, decided, yet, we're not doing hypnotherapy.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, I guess yeah.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: So Caban wasn't ready to give up. She encouraged Cindy
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: to try another hypnotherapist in a new year, still hoping
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: they could unlock useful memories about her stalker now. During
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the second session, Cindy repeated her claim about this double murder,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: but this time she went into a lot more detail.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: She told the therapist and Caban and the police that
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty one, while still married to Roy,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: they had gone sailing near Thornhambee Island. Cindy hated those trips.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Of course, we already discussed how she was afraid of water,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: terrified of.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Drowning, right, but he kind of made her go anyway.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so since she didn't want to go, Roy
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: was in a bad mood that day even though she
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: went right, so her ear toil ability, you know, not
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: being wanting to be on the water, just continued to
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: send Roy more down a spiral on that day, being
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: more and more infuriated, and according to Cindy, he eventually snapped.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: She described how Roy murdered a young couple right in
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: front of her and hacked their bodies up with an
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: axe and tossed the remains overboard. What. Yeah, she claimed,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: when Roy caught her watching, he smeared blood across her
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: face using one of the victims severed limbs.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: What the actual shit?
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a horrific story and a massive claim, but
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: there is one problem.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: And she's just deciding to share this now.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But okay, well yeah, but the biggest problem is exactly
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: that none of this is true. None of this happened.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Well, because I'm just confused too. If they were sailing,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: why the fuck is this random young couple with them?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And I don't know?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Oh man, Okay, Well, Roy and said did go sailing
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: near Thornaby Island that year before they separated, but they
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: weren't alone. Cindy's sister was with them the entire time,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and she told investigators that absolutely nothing unusual happened on
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that trip. To top it all off, police scoured records
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: and found no reports of any missing young couple in
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: the area, nor were there any records of dismembered body
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: members washing ashore.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Wow that is weird.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole incident appeared to be either a false
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: memory accidentally implanted during maybe hypnotherapy, or delusions Cindy had
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: come to fully believe.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, this just keeps getting weirder and weirder.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Cindy's mental state continued to deteriorate, and in late June
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty five, she was involuntarily committed to a
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: psychiatric facility after a prescription drug overdose. But initially it
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: looked like a suicide attempt. Cindy later insisted that it hasn't.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, She's never meant to kill herself.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: It was just kind of an accident or whatever.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: When she was Cindy became more determined than ever to
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: prove Roy was the one behind everything. She even asked
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: police to tap her phone so they could catch him
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: in the act. Now, I'm sure they already had her
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: phone tapped at this point and they were just like, Okay, yeah, sure,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: let's do that. But I could be wrong.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Her belief in this guilt had only solidified after her
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: recovery or recovered memory of the double murder, and now
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: she was convinced Roy was the one who orchestrated the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: threats to call the attack, all of this sort of thing.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, I just said this thought though your mind. Ken
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: play tricks on you, especially if you're in like Highley's
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: stressful situations, right, Yes, it can. So it could almost
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: be making her come up with this, you know, because
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: she thinks she's like thinking it's Roy, and then making
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: him seem like even more of a terrible person in
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: her mind, and.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yep, there is a high possiblity, high possibility of that
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: being the situation, which we do talk about a little
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: bit later. Okay, Cindy called Roy herself, knowing that the
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: police were listening into the call, and unleashed everything she believed.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: She told him she remembered him killing the couple on
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: the boat, She accused him of abusing her throughout their marriage,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: and insisted he was the mastermind behind her stalking. Roy
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: was stunned. He denied everything, the murders, the threats, the abuse,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: and he told Cindy that she was delusional and had
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: become obsessed with blaming him for things that he had
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Well, also, if he was, you know, it seems helping
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: in some ways. And then he gets this call, he's
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: probably just like, what the actual fuck like.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Just pissed exactly. And so as this conversation escalated, Cindy
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: swore she would expose him to gather proof, no matter
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: what it took, and Roy was exhausted, fed up, and
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: he finally cut her off, and he told her not
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: to contact him again unless she planned to take him
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to court. Okay, so he's just like I'm done.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, final straw for sure.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, in the weeks that followed, police decided to
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: put Roy under surveillance. They wanted to see if he
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: would slip up, if he was the one responsible, if
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: his movements lined up with harassing phone calls, the letters, anything, right,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: But Roy's life was rather ordinary and honestly kind of boring.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: It wasn't quite as entertaining to watch him.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: No, he went to work, ran errands, and didn't do
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: a single thing that raised any suspicions. After an entire
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: week of watching him, they called off the surveillance. There
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: was nothing. On August fifth, nineteen eighty five, Cindy called
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: emergency services to report the next event, which was a
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: fire at her home. When firefighters arrived, they found newspapers
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: scattered across the floor, clearly meant to act as kindling,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: but the fire itself never really caught and they were
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: able to put it out rather easily before it did
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: any damage. The next day, firefighters were back once again,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: another attempted fire, more newspapers, but still no real damage.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Police were already starting to question whether Cindy herself was
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: behind these fires. Right, there was no sign of forced entry,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: nothing out of place, no evidence that anyone had broken
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: in to start these fires or to burn the house down.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: To investigators, it felt like these were failed fires. They
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: were just warm up for something bigger to come. And
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: then on August twenty, first, the fires escalated at about
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: three fifteen am, Cindy decided, oddly enough to take your
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: dog hiding out for a walk at three fifteen.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that's a super odd time.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even though even the last time she went for
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: a walk didn't go very well. Right, So we have
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: a super odd hour and we have her going out
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: and the walk again, when last time she got assaulted. Right,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: So while she was out, her soccer apparently saw the
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: opportunity and slipped into the house, set the fire, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: left once again without a trace. Now this time the
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: fire actually spread, and when investigators arrived they found the
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: same setup newspapers across the floor used to help start
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the fire. Right. The strange part, the doors in the
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: home were all locked when Cindy left the home. There's
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: no sign anyone made their way in.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm like, oh, man struggling here, because I'm starting
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: to just, i don't know, really be skeptical as well.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, after the investigation, police determined Cindy set the fires herself.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Well it makes sense that she would, you know, she
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: wasn't there. Yeah, and that's when it like she went
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: for a walk and her house is like in flames.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: So now that fall. In nineteen eighty five, RCMP officer
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Carol Halliday requested that doctor Anthony Marcus, a psychologist, conduct
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: a full evaluation on Cindy and review the case files. Now,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Halliday had long suspected that Cindy was fabricating the entire
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: ordeal and believed that many of the male officers who
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: had worked with on Cindy's case, including Ozzie Coban and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Patrick McBride, have been blinded by their attraction to her.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: To Halliday, it seemed obvious Cindy was manipulating them. After
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: reviewing her case and speaking with Cindy directly, doctor Marcus
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: offered a surprising theory. He believed Cindy might be suffering
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: from disassociative identity disorder. In his opinion, Cindy was genuinely
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: terrified because she believed her own story if she was
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: the one harming herself, Though Marcus theorized she was doing
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: it in a disassociated state with no memory of her
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: own actions.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. And also, how good looking is
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: this woman then? If she's just able to I don't know,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: make all these police officers, I don't know.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't get me wrong, Like I looked up
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: her image and everything, Like she's pretty. She's a good
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: looking woman, But I don't think she's like, you know,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: a superdel Yeah, she's not like a temptress or anything
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: like that, you know.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, huh.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Now. By December of nineteen eighty five, Cindy decided it
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: was time for yet another fresh start. She moved to Richmond, BC,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: hoping that putting the distance between herself and her past
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: would be the answer, but the move brought no peace.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Now longer after settling in, she was found collapsed in
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: a ditch six miles from her new home. Once again,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Cindy had no idea how she got there. She was bruised,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: cut up, and barely conscious, suffering from hypothermia. Even as usual,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: there was a black nylon stocking wrapped tightly around her neck,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the same signature from past events.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: You would be even tell if some of that shit
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: was self inflicted, though, like the bruising and even probably
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: the way the nylon was tied and stuff. So what
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: the hell?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's exactly what that doctor was saying that
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: he's there. These officers are being blinded to a degree.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: By their attraction, right right, Okay.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: So they're not exactly investigating like.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: A damsel in distress, like oh my gosh, yeah, and
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: they just want to help.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, after this latest attack, Cindy left the country
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: again to stay with her family, and just like before,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: when she was away, there were no incidents, no calls,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: no letters, nothing. Her brother begged her to stay, to
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: leave Canada behind and rebuild her life somewhere where she
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: felt safe, but Cindy, she refused.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: I agree, she should just stay with her fam.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. When she returned home, her friends Agnes and Tom
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Woodcock turned They took turns sleeping over her house to
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: try and keep her company. Cindy had stopped eating at
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: this point and was barely taking care of herself. She
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: told him more than once that she would rather be
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: dead than keep living like this.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Oh brutal.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty six, with Agnes and
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Tom spending the night, Cindy woke up in a panic,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: saying she heard something downstairs. When they investigated, they found
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: another fire, this time in the basement. They tried to
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: call the fire department, only to discover that the phone
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: line had been cut. Tom ran outside to get help
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: and noticed a man standing in the street watching the flames.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: But the second Tom tried to approach, the man took
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: off into the night. That was it for Cindy. She
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: went straight to police and made a formal statement accusing
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Roy of being behind everything.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, now she has another witness.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: You know, well, he only witnessed a person standing there.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: I guess I Well, could she have set that fire though?
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Or no? I mean I guess she could have said
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: it quietly and then and then gotten woken up in
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: like a ah kind of thing, and then that's panic.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, let me put it in this way. I
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: don't understand. I'm not going to pretend to understand what
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: is going on, because no one does, right uh huh. Now,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: the theory is disassociative disorder. So she does a thing,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: doesn't remember it, and then, you know, gets in a
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: panic state. I'm gonna say, just for instant the sake
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: of looking at Devil's advocacy. What if she slept walk,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: did the fire thing, went back to bed, and then
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: woke up in a panic, thinking that, like the sleepwalking
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: thing that she just did was like a nightmare, and
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: she just like, oh, this someone was down there. I
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: know I heard them. It was actually hurt, you know
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: what I mean.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Kind of random though that this person would just be
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: outside too. That would freak me out.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Well, what if it's just a delinquent tee or something
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: like that, who's out to like spray paint some property,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: or maybe it's someone looking to rob something, or maybe
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: like who knows, and then their approach and it's like,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: oh shit, I got to get out of here. Yeah,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: it's very honestly, it's pretty likely that you run into
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: just someone walking by at a situation like that.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe I have trouble believing that. I guess.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's a high probability, but I'm
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: saying it's definitely a situation that could occur. Now, there
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: was just one major problem though, because Roy was being
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: accused of this. Right yep, Roy wasn't in the country
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: at the time.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, he.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Had returned to South Africa and had been there for
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: actually quite some time. At this point. Police also confirmed
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: that during many other harassing phone calls, Roy was under
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: surveillance like they're watching him right, like we have eyes
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: on him right now. And Cindy just reported a phone call.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: He was not on the phone.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: No, he's like getting groceries or some shit. Yeah, so
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: there was to police, there was no way he could
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: have been the one responsible. Right if he was involved,
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: he would have to have an accomplice.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Which is possible because there has been times where other people,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: like two individuals or like a female or whatever, was involved.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: That's true now by now. Alan Connolly, a psychiatrist who
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: had been treating Cindy on and off since nineteen eighty three,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: He had serious concerns about her mental health. He had
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: originally believed her reports of harassment, but in mid nineteen
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: eighty six, he feared that Cindy was spiraling into suicidal depression.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: He arranged for her to be involuntary admitted to a
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: psychiatric ward in Saint Hospital. There, she was diagnosed with
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: anorexia in severe depression. During her stay, Cindy wrote an
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: entry in her journal rather concerning one quote I feel
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: like suicide is my best option in an unbearable situation,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: and as soon as I get out of here, I'll
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: carry out my plan. All Now, over the ten weeks
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: stay that she spent in the hospital, Cindy's mental health
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: showed remarkable improvement. With steady treatment, structure, and support, she
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: seemed to finally regain a small sense of control in
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: her life. Now, surprisingly, life it seemed to take a
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: turn for the better for her, so she's released from
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the hospital. The call stopped, threatening notes disappeared, and for
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: the first time in ages, she could step outside without
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: fear that someone was lurking in the shadows. She stuck
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: with therapy, telling her counselors that she's starting to feel
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: more like herself. By September, Cindy was confident enough to
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: buy her own house and was making plans to return
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: to work the following month. Now. All this progress, unfortunately
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: was short lived. Almost immediately after going back to her
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: old job, she was fired. The hospital saw her mental
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: health struggles as too much of a liability, and they
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: unfortunately let her go.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: WHOA. Yeah, it was a.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Crushing blow, but Cindy didn't give up. Nearly a year later,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: in August of nineteen eighty seven, she landed a new
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: position at Richmond General Hospital. Now, unfortunately, that same month
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: the harassment started all over again. Cindy called the police
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: to report that someone had tried to break into her
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: home tried to pry open a window. Three days later,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: she phoned again, this time saying that the light bulbs
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: in her front porch had been loosened as if you know,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: wanting it to be dark from there. It was a
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: weekly string of new reports, strange noises, signs of trespassing,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: and Cindy's growing fear that someone was targeting her once
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: again like before. About a month in the new renewed harassment,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Roy make Peace received two bizarre voicemails, one on his
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: home answering machine. Sorry, both on his home answering machine,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: and the messages they're from someone who was obviously trying
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: to disguise their voice. Now, however, it was very clear
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: they were trying to be a pretend to be a
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: hired killer. The killer claimed that Roy paid them to
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: kill Cindy.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: And this is left on his voicemail.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, and these the voice that's obviously being like disguised.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: It was a female voice. Huh shit, So like my
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: voice is like this, and the voice is sucking like this,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Like it's like a female trying to do this and
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: talking on his voicemail. It's yeah, very bizarre. Yeah. Now,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: when Roy got these messages, he was absolutely fed up
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: and he immediately handed these tapes over to his lawyer.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: He didn't trust the police to handle it fairly anymore either. Meanwhile,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Cindy was unraveling. She confided in her sister, admitting that
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: she felt like she was losing her grip on reality.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: She believed that all the drugs she'd been injecting during
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: the past week had somehow damaged her brain, leaving her
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: unsure of what was real or what wasn't. Now, Cindy
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: went to police and accused Roy, once again of orchestrating everything,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the threats, the break ins, the harassment. She said, Roy,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: with all his expertise as a psychiatrist, was trying to
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: systematically break her mind peace by peace. The police arranged
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: another recorded phone call between Cindy and Roy. As before,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Roy denied everything and he just begged her to leave
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: him alone and moved on. He wanted nothing to do
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: with her. After they hung up, Roy's lawyer contacted the
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: police again and turned over the suspicious voicemails left on
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: his entering machine. The police immediately suspected Cindy herself had
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: left them trying to frame Broy, which I'm sure we
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: all already thought. Two weeks later, Cindy was once again attacked.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: She was found unconscious in her car, naked from the
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: waist down and hog tied as always a black nole
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: and stocking was tied tightly around her neck. When she
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: came to she remembered getting out of her car and
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: being grabbed, but after that her memory was blank. The
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: cycle started again, threatening notes, phone calls nearly every day,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: and this time the harassment even followed her to work,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: and her coworkers at Richmond General Hospital began finding disturbing
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: notes meant for Cindy left around the hospital. After the
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: attempted break in, police even brought in sent dogs to
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: try and track whoever had been near her home, but
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: the dogs came up with nothing, no trail, no scent,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: no evidence. Then about a month later, Cindy was attacked
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: for what would be the final time. At around four pms.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: He went to Richmond General Hospital to pick up her paycheck.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: She chatted briefly with some coworkers, and they later recalled
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: that she was in surprisingly good spirits. She told them
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: that she hadn't had any strange incidents lately and was
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: hopeful that maybe the stalking had finally stopped. But knowing
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: her luck, she admitted she even still had her dots.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: That night, Cindy had big plans. She was supposed to
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: have a high tech infrared security system installed in her house,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: the kind used at banks, right, so making sure that
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: you can even see in the dark all this sort
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: of stuff. This was going to finally catch whoever was
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: tormenting her. After that, Agnes and Tom Woodcock were planning
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: to spend the night just like they had many times before.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: After picking up her paycheck, Cindy made a quick stop
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: to pick up some groceries, then headed to the bank
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: to deposit her check. Security footage showed her leaving the
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: bank at about seven fifty nine pm, and after that
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Cindy vanished. When Agnes and Tom Woodcock arrived at her
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: house at around ten PM, they immediately noticed something was wrong.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Cindy's car wasn't in the driveway and the house was
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: dark and empty. They managed to speak to her downstairs tenants,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: who told him that Cindy had gone out earlier to
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: run some errands, but she hadn't come back yet. Worried,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: the two drove to the shopping center that Cindy usually frequented,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: and there they found her car abandoned in the parking lot.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Inside the car were her groceries, and sitting beside them
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: was a wrapped birthday present for a child's friend. There
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: was a blood smear on the driver's side door.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Oh boy.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Inside was also some of Cindy's wallet contents. They were
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: scattered underneath the vehicle, and it almost appeared to suggest
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: a struggle. Terrified, the two called police and reported Cindy
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: missing right away. Now, given her history, law enforcement treated
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: it as an urgent case, launching a large scale search
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: right away. Her face was plaid stirred everywhere TV newspapers, posters,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: and shop windows, but despite the attention, Cindy remained missing
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: for two weeks. Two weeks when she was finally found,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: it was exactly what her family and friends had feared.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Cindy was discovered in the yard of an abandoned house
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: a little over a mile where her car had been left.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: The property sat on a busy street, and although the
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: house was vacant, it was known as a large hangout
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: for local teams, especially in the summer. However, no one
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: had been there for a few weeks. Adding to the eeriness,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: graffiti had recently been sprayed on the house, reading someone
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: died here whoa and it circled the exact spot where
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: they found Cindy's body.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: WHOA. Okay shit.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: The scene was brutal. Cindy had been beaten severely and
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: her hands and feet were tied behind her back. The
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: bindings were so tight that one finger had been worn
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: down to the bone from trying to free herself.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: She was fully dressed. She wasn't wearing any shoes though,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: and her feet were perfectly clean, indicating that she hadn't
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: walked there on her own. And as always, a black
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: nylon stalking was wrapped around her neck. A small needle
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: mark was found on the inside of her right elbow,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: and for the first time in her ordeal, the toxicology
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: reports actually found drugs in her system, a massive overdose
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: of morphine along with diazepam and floresepam. I Hope I
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: pronounced that correctly, the dose of morphine alone was more
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: than ten times a lethal amount. Despite the sheer brutality
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: of the scene, the RCMP leaned towards ruling her death
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: either as a suicide or an accidental overdose.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, that okay.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Their theory was that Cindy, after seven exhausting years of
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: stalking attacks and fear, may have overdosed, believing that someone
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: would find her in time to save her. So they're
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: saying she did this just like they believe she did
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the other attacks. What she set this up? She was
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: setting it up to be found. However, no one found her.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but would you be found in that way? Like
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: would she have been able to do all that to herself?
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: That's the question.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: And also, I don't know, just her actions prior to
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: doesn't really make sense for someone who's about to commit suicide,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: like picks up a check, cashes the check, gets groceries,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: and then also like has this rapped presence? Well, the
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: rap present maybe, but getting the money and stuff doesn't
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: necessarily it.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: It doesn't, it doesn't. You have to consider the fact
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: for a moment. Just just think that Cindy was suffering
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: from something along the lines of this dissociative disorder. Okay,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: that there is something that Cindy was responsible for this
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: and she just doesn't remember. Just pretend that is the case,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: factually the case for the moment, not saying it is.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Just pretend it is for the moment. Yeah, she had
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: seven years to learn how to set this up, to
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: learn how to throw police off, to learn how to
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: make it look real. So who's to say she didn't
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: learn that normal things prior to would make it look real.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Not saying she's doing it on purpose subconsciously dissociative stuff, right,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Who's to say she didn't learn how to do it
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: over the course of these seven years of these alleged
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: attacks and stockings.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, but how can you explain to me again how
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: she was found like she had her finger was all
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: fucked up to from her trying to like free herself.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, so she was apparently hog tied. Her hands
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and feet were hogtied behind her back, and the ropes
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: were tight enough that her finger was worn down to
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the bone from trying to actually like free herself.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: See, I don't feel like you could do that yourself.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: How the hell could you do that to yourself?
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Good question.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: I just yeah, that that's not sitting well with me. Again.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Now this description, though, I mean, we are relying on descriptions,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: it's hard to say. Maybe it wasn't as tight as
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: it's described and these these reports, maybe that's not quite
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: telling the entire picture. I don't know. I don't have
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: the exact police reports from the situation, right.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I just don't feel like, Okay, if she
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: would say found in her home, you know, with like
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: a little beat up or like but laying in bed
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: or on her coach or on the floor or something,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: I would maybe like believe the suicide thing a little
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: bit more. But this I'm having trouble believing it. I
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: guess fair.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Enough, fair enough. I do want to say, now, working
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: at a hospital as a nurse, she does have access
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: to needles.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, drugs, she does.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: It's like she was drugged with something that she didn't
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: have easy access to.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Oh man, Okay.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: Now, her friends and family were horrified with the conclusion
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: that the authorities came to. They believed that it was
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: obvious Roy make Peace was the one behind it, and
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: that someone, if not him, you know, it was a murder,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: plain and simple, one way or another, but they did
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: believe Roy make Peace was the one behind it. In
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, a formal inquest into Cindy's death was launched.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: The proceedings stretched over forty days and the testimonies that
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: came were shocking. Roy himself even testified, in fact, claiming
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: that Cindy had suffered sexual and physical abuse as a child.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: According to Roy, Cindy told him during their marriage that
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: her father Auto had been both physically violent and emotionally
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: cruel an and even that one of her brothers had sexually.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: Abused her oh Okay.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Roy said that whenever he tried to talk to Cindy
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: about her past, she would explode with age sometimes her
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Various psychiatrists over the years even confirmed this as well.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Another revelation came from Cindy's parents, who admitted they'd found
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: and destroyed a stash of medication in Cindy's home shortly
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: after her death. Some of these prescription drugs matched the
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: ones she overdosed on. They destroyed the medications because they
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: were feel fearful that these would lead authorities to conclude
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: her death was a suicide, so they flushed everything down
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: the toilet and vowed never to speak of it again,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: so they hid evidence.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Yikes, okay.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Cindy's sister Melanie also testified, revealing that she had found
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: a glass cutter, a medical syringe, a urinary catheter, and
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: saline solution in Cindy's room after her death, items that
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: seemed eerily similar to tools used in some of the
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: staged attacks. Cindy had previously reported these ones, and you know,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: like these attacks happened whatever, and these tools were most
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: likely and potentially used in those attacks. The psychiatrist who
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: treated Cindy over the years also took the stand. One doctor,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Paul Termisano, testified that he believed Cindy suffered from hysteronic
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: personality disorder, a condition marked by attention seeking behavior and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: exaggerated emotions. Another specialist suggested borderline personality disorder with elements
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: of severe PTSD. Several forensic experts were also brought in
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: to demonstrate how Cindy could have tied herself up during
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: those past attacks, and medical professionals explained how long she
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: could have remained conscious after injecting herself with drugs that
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: were found in her system. After forty days of testimony,
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: the jury couldn't reach a clear conclusion. They found no
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: solid proof that Cindy had been murdered, but they also
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: couldn't find definitively proof or one way or another to
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: say that it was a suicide. They officially ruled her
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: death as death by an unknown event, and with that
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: the case was formally closed. The RCMP had spent over
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: one point five million dollars investigating the case of Cindy James,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: and yet there was no evidence at hand. There was
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: no evidence a stalker ever existed existed, there was no
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: evidence there was a murder. And because of that, many
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: people who study the case of Cindy James believed that
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: she was behind the entire ordeal from the beginning, whether
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: she knew it or not. And that's the case of
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Cindy James. Ding fucking dang, yeah right, try and swallow
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: that case and process.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: It no shit, Because the amount of times, even just
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: listening that I went back and forth to like, there's
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: a stocker, No, it's Cindy, there's a stock or no,
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: it's Cindy. At this point, I have no fucking idea.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: I can't even I can't even say.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. Did I or did I not?
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: Tell you that you're gonna be like what the fuck
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: at the very end, I can't remember what we said
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: in part one, the exact quote or how we said it,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: but I remember being like, no, you're gonna be like
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: this is a fucking, weird, fucked up case. And I
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: can't remember or don't know. Shit.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this amount of times that I've gone back and forth,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: and I'm even right now, I just did again because
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, like she someone did this to her, No,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: it was her, just oh man, I don't know. No,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, even the jury couldn't figure it out, right,
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: and they had all the details, so.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, So yeah, I don't even know what else
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: to say. I can't say much more on this one,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: because holy shit, what a case. There is so much
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: to it, so much tunpack and like you said and
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: put it very well, even the jury couldn't figure it out.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, because she in Part one we did
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: discuss though, how she there was she felt like she
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: was a little bit I don't know if neglect does
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: the right word, but not really giving the attention as
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: a child, right, or she didn't get much attention as
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: a child. That was a thing, right, I can't recall,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I don't think so, okay, I don't know.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe thinking of a different case.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know, because I was just thinking about the
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: one diagnosis where they said that she was like seeking
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: attention and stuff, you know.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let me go back in my notes here
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: and let's double check this now. I do recall. I
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: don't think she had like the best upbringing by any means.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: And obviously, I mean, as far as Roy says, it
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: does seem like there was.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: Some other shit really mad.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, So I found the spot that you're
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: thinking of here. So I'm just going to read right
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: from the script exactly what we said in part one.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Where should I start? Okay, So she was one of
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: six kids, and growing up back then was a whole
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: different world Matilda and Auto. Her parents were pretty old school.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: They believe kids should be quiet, behave and not make
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: a fuss. Auto in particular, was off as nails if
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: he was in a bad mood. It was unusual that
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: the kids, sorry, where am I here? It was usually
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: there we go. It was usually the kids who ended
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: up on the receiving end. And his way of handling
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: discipline was well, let's say not exactly gentle. In his mind,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: if something was wrong, he could just smack it out
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: of you. From a young age, Cindy figured out the
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: safest way was safe at bat was to stay out
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: of Auto's stay on Auto's good side. Yeah, okay, Now,
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: I mean she did like trying, Like she threw herself
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: into her schoolwork and like hope that, like you doing well,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: she might make her dad proud or something like that.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she never really yeah happened.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so she is like a sentence I do have
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: here is whenever she got even the sliver of attentions
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: from him, she would light up and go on about
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: her latest accomplishment.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like it wasn't something that was often handed out
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: to her.
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'm not gonna say that she was like
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: attention seeking, but she did, I guess, I guess maybe yeah.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So then of a sudden, so I'm just thinking
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: as an adult, then you know, she may crave attention
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: because she didn't necessarily get it as a kid. I
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Holy shit, even if someone craves attention, this is an
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: extreme way to go about it. Yeah, because she ended
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: up If that is the case, she ended up killing
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: herself and she would get attention like holy shit.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Another thought too that I had while you were chatting
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: is if if she'd set this up and then at
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: one point, I don't know, I don't know exactly how
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: it works, but it came to and realized what the
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: fuck she did? You know, because I don't know if
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: she I don't know how quickly you can switch back
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: and forth to what they're saying she could have, do
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: She snaps out of it and she's, yeah, yeah, who.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Knows, Like she did this to herself in that you
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: know state and then comes too from it and is
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: like holy shit.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: But if that is the case, if she was in
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: a state where she did it to herself and then
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: she comes to she probably didn't realize she was the
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: one who did it.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, but just like panicking to try to get
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: out and oh gosh. Well.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing too, is if she was the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: one to do it, as the theory goes, she did
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: it to herself expecting to be found and saved, but
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: when she came to if she if she did, if
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: she did, that's heavily on the if she did theory,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: then when she came to. Then she's struggling to get
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: free because hey, she doesn't remember that she put herself
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: in that state, but the in that state version of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: herself was expecting her to be found. And then she's struggling,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: and then never did get found, and then she died,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: and then it was two weeks later that she gets found.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: Like you know what I mean, it's there's a lot
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: of theories about it, and it's it's so messed up
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: to think about. I don't know where I was going
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: with that thought, but it's so messed up to think about.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: I know, in my mind, I think it would just
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: be so easy to prove if she did that to herself,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: but I guess it wasn't.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: So yeah, well, gang, Yeah, So that's the story of
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Cindy James and the Invisible Man, very aptly named because
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: she claimed there was a man stalking her and there
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: is no evidence he ever existed at all. If you
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: guys have some thoughts in this case, we'd love to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: hear it. Use an email message, you name it. We
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: have all our stuff in the description of this podcast.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: You can check it out, get a hold of us,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: check some things out like Patreon. Maybe you can go
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: join it. Maybe you can give us a review. We
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: are an indie podcast, produced, hosted, researched all of it
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: on our own. So thank you for support, because your
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: support is what keeps us going.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, just the last note here, I'm like, creep the
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: shit out now, because during this recording, we well, we
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: have a scale that talks to us, which is really
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: fucking annoying me. You step on there and it's like hello,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: and then it tells you your weight, so it's like announces
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: it to the world. But we were just like sitting
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: here and the thing was just we haven't used it
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: for a few days, and it just started going like hello, hello, Hello, Hello.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Something was trying to talk to us. Maybe like that
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: is so creepy. Maybe it was Cindy.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: Like, Okay, now I don't know how I'm going to
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: go about my day.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: Clearly you're still stuck on the scale.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: That's creepy.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Well not stuck on the scale, but in your mind.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's creepy though. Yeah, that's never done.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: That before, No it hasn't. I mean it is an
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: older scale at this point. Maybe it's just starting to
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: crode inside yourself.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Throw it out and get We.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Have a haunted scale in our.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: House communicating about these cases.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: What if it's not Cindy, What if it's the invisible Man?
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, we gotta go.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, until next time, stay wicked,