Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Beatrice Kabutakapua

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Cutting Through with Beatrice Kabutakapua · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

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In Season 3 of Cutting Through, we're asking the question, how
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do you cut through with humanity in the age of AI?
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Because the first time in history, machines are imitating
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us. They're writing like us,
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speaking like us, creating like us.
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And the question suddenly everywhere is what does it mean
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to be human when the machines can do the same things we do?
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In this series, we're exploring that question from different
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angles, not with the usual voices, and not with the same
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predictable panel of experts, but with people who see the
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world differently. Season 3 is supported by
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antiquota.com, a platform built to challenge the sameness of
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expertise by helping media, podcasts and events discover new
0:46
voices and new perspectives. Because if we're going to talk
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about the future, we probably need a broader set of people
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shaping the conversation. This is Cutting through.
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Welcome to cutting through with me, Natasha Ploughman.
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Today, I'm very excited to have Beatrice Kabuta Kapoor on the
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podcast with us. She's an expert on storytelling
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and business storytelling. She's a coach, she's a
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leadership advisor, and she's an author and speaker.
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It's quite fortuitous having Beatrice on today because we
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were just talking beforehand about, you know, how we need to
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understand people's perspectives, where they come
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from. And I think a lot of the
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conversation I want to have in this series about how do we cut
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through with humanity in the age of AI has storytelling and
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understanding individual's responses to things at its
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heart. So before we get stuck into the
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meat of this conversation, which is I'm sure going to be really
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thought provoking, both for me and hopefully for you as
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listeners. Beatrice, welcome.
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Give us a little bit of an idea of who you are and what makes
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you you. Awesome.
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Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.
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So who am I? Those are like the big questions
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that we always ask ourselves, right?
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We start with the big stuff on cutting, throwing.
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Something that I that I'm seeing from another coach is
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introducing myself by introducing my mission rather
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than what I do. So the mission for me has always
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been about helping people who are not usually visible or
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usually heard to be more visible and be more heard.
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And I'm talking about folks from the global majority, people in
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the LGBTQI plus community, people living with disability,
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any leader or entrepreneur who historically and systematically,
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systematically hasn't been heard or has been underestimated.
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And I've done it in different ways throughout my my life and
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my career. And now I'm doing it by helping
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them to share their own stories. So I coach them so that they can
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be more visible, they can be more confident, and they can be
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more authentic, but still reach the goals and the strategic
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goals that they want to reach. Fascinating.
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And how are you finding people's response to that mission?
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They, they're always taken by the mission, but when it comes
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to their own personal experiences, there is fear, You
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know, because when we talk about the, the, the immediate reply
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when I say, oh, I work as a business storytelling coach.
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Oh, that's interesting. Storytelling is so important,
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but then they don't do it. Yeah.
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Which is very interesting because there are so many
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different assumptions. The first one is that you are
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supposed to be born a storyteller.
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Like you come out in the world and you are a storyteller.
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And if you have been a storyteller since birth, then
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you can never possibly be one. The second one is the fear of
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visibility. And that's the thing that for
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me, it's more fascinating as someone who has always been
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afraid about being visible. But it's interesting because
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people think and assume that when it comes to being visible
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and using storytelling to do that.
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Or I have to do the storytelling course and learn how to
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structure a story and how to start a story and how to move my
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hands. And I always say yes.
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And you can learn all of those things in a book and still you
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are in front of people and you feel like you're going to faint
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if you're saying one word. And that's not because you don't
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know how to tell the story, but that's because somewhere along
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the way of your life, something, someone inexperience or a
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person, something traumatise you a little bit in terms of being
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visible. You did something and then
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something bad happened for you or to you, and now you are
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completely blocked. And there is no amount of
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storytelling sessions in terms of the structure and how to tell
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the story that is going to help you with that.
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Which is why I always have to specify that yes, I can teach
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everyone how to structure a story, but that's not the work
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that I actually do, no. I mean, a lot of the work that I
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also do, and I think this is where we share, is helping
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people communicate with more impact and storytelling is one
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element of it. But the most important thing
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that always starts with is getting to know yourself.
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And that's often the hardest thing for people to be able to
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do is to understand who they are and what makes them tick,
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understand why they react to certain things in the way they
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do. I mean, big parts is around
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triggers. It's about going through your
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whole history and your life and understanding who you are.
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And that's always the basis of communications.
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And it's been, it's been really fascinating for me because I
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think a lot of the work I'm doing now is a lot with men,
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which I find fascinating because people assume because I'm quite
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active, a lot of gender based groups, they'll work mainly with
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women. But I'm really enjoying working
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with men because they're, you know, they're challenging their
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perception of how they're meant to be and, and, and their
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perception of how they the shoulds in their head.
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And it sounds like in the work that you're doing, it's also
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challenging people's idea of what they should be saying or
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what they should be doing or how they should be expected to, to
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be perceived and ignoring the core of what makes them
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themselves. So, and I mean, have you found,
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and you found like generally, once you get past that hump of
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people kind of recognise, oh, this is actually about me that I
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need to understand, you know, what are the techniques that
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really get people past that bit to to move forward into to being
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owning their own communication style?
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Yeah, I usually like to disclose that at the very beginning
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because I do tell everyone that yes, after, you know, a period
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of time working together, you will be a confident storyteller
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and you will have the knowledge on how to structure the story.
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However, that's not the initial work that we start with.
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That's the that's the other part.
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That's the second part. Like you said, you know, it's
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like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we are getting there.
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But the way I see it is and the way I see with my clients as
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well, it's almost like peeling an an onion.
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So the more you take out, the more you will find out.
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And it's so fascinating because it can take as little as like a
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conversation or a coaching session.
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And then when people spend their time by themselves, or maybe
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they meet, you know, the family, or maybe they read some old
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journal or maybe they watch some videos from like 10 years prior.
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There are some things like, it's almost like now the door is
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open. So they start to remember things
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and they start to remember things linked to who they are
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because it's never, you know, like you were saying that they
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have to find out who they are. We already know who we are.
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We just buried the answer. And the years and years of
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conditioning and years of people telling us how we are supposed
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to behave and who we are supposed to be and who we are in
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their eyes. And there are always moments in
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our lives, especially when we were little, when we were
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growing up, that those moments are telling us who we actually
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are. We just bury them so deeply that
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sometimes you don't even remember.
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And for me, the, the, all I do with, with my clients is really
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like asking questions and then challenging the answer and then
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challenging the that answer. And that's the best way.
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And I love it how when out of the blue, they will send me a
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message or a voice note or an email and they're like, you know
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what I realised? I just remember that when I was
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little, I used to do this thing. And I wasn't afraid.
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I was like, yeah. Yeah, and it is.
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I mean, I do similar work to you and I love it.
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And I never thought I've kind of fallen into it a little bit
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because I've done a lot of communications training and
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media training. And then it's become much more
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that one to one coaching and that one to one support.
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And I think, and now I'm doing a project with rising stars within
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a particular business. And because they're at that
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point, they're at a point of their career where they can,
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they have it, they're they have a choice.
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They have a choice to continue the path they've always gone on,
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which may not be as fulfilling, it may not have the impact, but
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it also won't let them adapt to the future as it is, as we're
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seeing it at the moment. And I think this is where why
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the work that we both do is so important in the age of AI and
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the age of disruption. And is that the ability for
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people to be able to to be to to cut through that noise a bit
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with their own, you know, individual humanity.
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And that's takes takes learning to what we're talking about.
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And I wonder how we can. And this for me is the essence
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of the the world we are at the moment is how do we enable and
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empower people more with honesty and transparency to own their
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communication style without fear and without prejudice and
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without all of those things in a world that seems to be filled
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with fear and outrage and prejudice.
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And, and do you see a time that that might be somewhat changed
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because of the kind of work that we both are doing and getting
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people to know themselves more? Yeah.
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You know, it's interesting because I think that the the
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first answer would be to cut through the noise.
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It's really to make silence. Sometimes we really just need to
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stop listening. Stop.
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Listening. Yeah.
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Oh yeah. You know, we just need to pause
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all the noise outside and look a little bit and it's going to
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sound a little bit Boo Boo and like, oh, such an internal work
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that I have to do. But it is, it is important
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because the noise will bury the knowledge that you already have
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about yourself and about who you are.
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So I think that the very first thing will be for people to stop
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talking so much about AI and about all the things that are
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going wrong and all the things that are not going to work and
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you know, how they're going to write stories anymore and you
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know, all of those things. Of course, I understand that it
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within the workplace in particular or within the
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leadership space, you know, these are the conversations that
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are happening for, you know, because it's part of our
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present, it's going to be part of our future.
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But it's important when you are not in that space, when you're
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not required to have those conversations, to just quiet
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everything down. Yeah.
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And to just look at yourself and your skills and your lived
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experience. I love that and that and, and
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open yourself up to other people's experiences.
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And I think a big part of the work I've been doing in
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particularly on triggers. And it's kind of a line that I
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think my daughter is definitely getting sick of me saying to
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her, but other people are increasingly getting sick of me
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saying to them. Is that the only thing that you
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can control is how you react to things?
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Yeah. And the only thing I think it's
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so. And you know, it took me a long
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time to recognise that, you know, that whole idea of she
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made me feel like that or he did that and therefore I did that.
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But really it's not on other people's ability to control.
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It's on me and how I want to own and understand my reaction to
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things and to give that self reflection enough to kind of go,
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why did that piss me off in the way that it did?
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Or why did that person's, what they said or what they did or
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how they showed up gave me a feeling either physically or
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emotionally or mentally and do the work to understand that.
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And I just feel as if that if we can get more people just
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thinking in, in those in that way, we might stop a little bit
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of the outrage and the, and the, the, the conflict and the, the,
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just the sheer anger we're seeing with a lot of people and
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the shoulds. You should think this, you
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should say that, which I said before, it's just becoming more
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prevalent. So I mean, and are you seeing?
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Because what I'm also seeing is that businesses, particularly,
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you know, some businesses in the age of AI are then looking to
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their leadership, they're looking to their their next
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cohorts of leadership, but they wanted to lead with a more human
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lens. Are you seeing that within your
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own business that that's been the thing that people are asking
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of you more? Definitely, 100%.
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You know, every time that there is a new change in the world,
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there is always been the opposite of the change.
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And something that I'm seeing so much right now is first of all
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is people asking from their leaders to share more of
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themselves. Not the simple updates that are
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happening in the companies, not the we are going to use AI to
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serve our clients better. They're really, they're really
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asking them to share their own stories, but also to share how
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they change in the company are going to impact employees and
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not in in a just operational way, but really in a, in a human
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way. That's one thing.
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And then the second thing is the fact that now so many more
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people are interested in in person things and human
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connections and paper and, you know, everything that is not
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that cannot be easily modified or altered by, you know, a
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digital space or by artificial intelligence.
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People are wanting more of those that want more retreats, more in
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person team meetings and more connections.
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And I'm seeing that so much, so, so much.
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And I think that it's just going to increase even more.
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One can only hope so. It lost the way.
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And I think this is the both commercially and also, you know,
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just for the sheer value that we're seeing people get from
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like a more open, transparent, safe connection that just builds
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bridges. I mean, so much of what, you
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know, I also say with storytelling, it's the ultimate
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in building bridges because, you know, you can agree with someone
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and this is the thing I find you can agree with someone about
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something, but not something else.
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And it's fine. And I think again, with the role
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of AI is we're getting this situation where people almost
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being forced into certain belief patterns or certain ways of
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being. And then it gets cemented and it
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gets, you know, you know, created that that's all they
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hear. And, you know, how did we get
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people to break out of that? And I think, you know, knowing
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yourself, but also to the work you're doing around storytelling
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gives the people a massive opportunity to break out of
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those echo chambers. And are you able to challenge
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people's, I suppose, perceptions in the work that you've been
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doing? Yes, but not directly.
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And that's because I'm also conscious of other people's
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sensibility around, you know, different topics and different
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opinions and different ideas. So I choose not to challenge
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them directly. But I the invitation is always
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about, you know, curiosity and listening and not listening to
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reply, but listening for, you know, understanding a different
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point of view. And even before you know, these
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conversation around AI exploded. There was so much polarizations
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in any topic. Like if we disagree on
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something, we can never meet again.
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We can never. It happens everywhere.
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I mean it's. Just that it really does.
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And I understand that on certain topics, but on others, it's a
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pity because we are rubbing each other from, you know, the
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exploration part, the learning something new part.
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Why do you think that way? Why is this important for you?
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And I might still not agree with you, which is completely fine,
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but it's at least I've learned something new, you know, and to,
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to the point that you were making even before about, you
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know, the, the questions that you have to, to ask yourself and
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how you, you can realise what triggers you and what doesn't
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trigger you. That's all about curiosity,
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about asking questions. And something that I, I realised
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in the, in the past couple of years is this idea that every
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single interaction that we have, every person that we meet, every
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book that we read, every paying, every file that we have, it's
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really something that is giving information about ourselves
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rather than something that happened to us.
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It's more about, OK, what, what are my boundaries now?
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What are my triggers now? Whatever, learn from this
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experience, whatever, learn from this person.
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And if we could see that when it comes to the workplace with we
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could think about this in these lens when it comes to the
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workplace, when it comes to the leadership communication as
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well, it will be so much better. I think they prove so much.
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If women rule the world and I think.
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That's without saying what do I find I.
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Don't think a lot of this stuff is necessarily gendered.
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And I think, you know, and it's a kind of a pithy remark and I,
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you know, and I do often think particularly at the moment when
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women rule the world, but there is something around that, that,
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that innate curiosity, that innate asking of questions, that
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being out. But, but I also think it's that
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kind of questioning of ourselves and questioning of, you know,
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why do I think this way rather than just like a very clear,
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this is how things are. And I think like you, I've
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worked a lot with global companies and particularly
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global companies around, around the world.
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And I always find it in fascinating, particularly I was
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in Bangkok last year and that and it was brought together a
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lot of people from across Asia Pacific and there was a real
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cultural understanding and expectation of how they was,
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they thought they were meant to be.
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And I think we invited them to kind of think, well, how can
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this cultural upbringing, does it really reflect how you want
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to be? Or are there things you want to
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change around around that? And how do you want to show up
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in a different way, particularly in the global company?
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And the same for kind of different cultural areas.
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And do you see that cultural kind of over overlaying
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everyone's expectations, both of themselves, but also how other
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people see them? That can be challenged a lot
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more. Yeah, it's really, it's really
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about awareness and then a plan for change, right?
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Because you don't know what you don't know.
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So if you don't realise that that you have been conditioned,
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whether it's culturally or whether it's in other way into
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behaving in a certain way or thinking that things are
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supposed to be in a certain way, then it's very difficult to
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change. So first of all, you need to be
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aware of things and of your triggers, of your culture, of
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everything, of the culture of the company as well.
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Because this is another thing that, you know, it's, it doesn't
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answer your questions specifically, but it's something
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that I see a lot where companies are asking for their leaders to
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be more commutative, to be more authentic, you know, whatever
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that means in the workplace. But then the culture of the
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company doesn't actually the word that behaviour.
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And that's a problem because if I don't feel like visibility,
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communicating in a certain way, storytelling, it's all about
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feeling safe doing doing those things.
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And if I don't feel safe in my organisation communicating or
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being visible or being a storyteller, you know, I might
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do it once and that's it. That's it's not going to become
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part of the culture of the company.
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So there is both the work to be done on the company culture, but
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also on the individual, on the individual leader for sure.
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Yeah. Now I think that's so important.
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And we talk, I mean, like again, people talk about psychological
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safety, but when you kind of really unpick what does that
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actually mean for people and what does that actually mean for
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when something goes wrong, how do people handle it?
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Or how do people handle disagreement or conflict?
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And, and the expectation that conflict is always is negative
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and it's not conflict can drive so much action and an ability to
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air things in a different way. And, but I think that being
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really open and honest about and transparent about different
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cultures, like one of my clients is quite hierarchical and I talk
22:43
to them about like, you know, you're kind of like a triangle
22:46
when you want to get anything done.
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So you've got to go up to go over here.
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It's always the triangle. You can never go straight across
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to influence and to debate and to kind of challenge things.
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You've always think you've got to go to the senior person and
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then down again. And you know, and when, when you
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say that to them and they know it, they live it.
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But when you name it and you bring it out into the open and
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they recognise, oh actually we could just have a conversation
23:09
with them and just kind of listen to what they might.
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There is something different with someone external to the
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organisation making you aware of things.
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Yeah, because even with the organisations I work with,
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whenever it was time to, you know, to the to talk about the
23:28
challenges or whether there were some conflicts, it was so much
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easier if I was mentioning what the issue was rather than having
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someone internally mentioning the the issue.
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So let's bring it back now to so, so much of this is around
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human connection, human leadership, human, you know, how
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humans relate to other humans. And we've got this other inhuman
23:54
or unhuman or whatever kind of entity coming into the fore.
24:00
The robots are taking over. The kind of the technology is
24:03
now becoming, you know, it's it's, it automates everything.
24:06
It does everything faster. It's amazing.
24:08
It's this, it's that it's the most boring conversation I can
24:11
ever imagine at the moment, particularly for people who are
24:13
much more interested in what makes humans human.
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But how you know? But then but it, I find a lot of
24:20
the conversation it just it, it takes away that individual
24:23
humanity. It, it, it makes everything.
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So it just feels like everything becomes so vanilla.
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It becomes so kind of just the same or beige or just that, you
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know, it doesn't give colour and it doesn't give you know, it
24:35
doesn't, you know it. And I wonder how we can use in
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tandem with these tools to make sure that we are really human
24:47
centric in both how we use the tools, but then how the tools,
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you know, relate to our lives. And are you seeing that becoming
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more of a, a, a focus area for people to be to be discussing?
25:00
I don't know if they made enough time for them to discuss about
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things because the question that comes to mind for me is I'm all
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for, you know, automating as much as possible and, you know,
25:18
regaining our, our time. Then the question though, is
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what do we do with that time? You know, we become more
25:27
efficient, but why not just because, you know, we have to
25:32
increase profit or because we need to, you know, make more
25:37
money or work better with more clients and all these different
25:41
things. Like we want people to have more
25:44
space and time. So that, and then I think that's
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the question that we need to to ask ourselves and that companies
25:52
need to need to ask themselves and not just because it's
25:56
important and because, you know, the human connection is what
26:01
keeps us alive. Literally, you hope so.
26:08
But it's also because people are going to burn out.
26:12
Like if we are talking about in business terms, yes, we can be
26:17
super efficient and then you are going to give more to your
26:20
employees or you are going to, you know, give them more space
26:23
and time. Like what's going to happen with
26:25
that extra time that we all have?
26:29
And companies need to think about that on a strategic, on a
26:32
strategic level because it's not.
26:34
You cannot just charge employees with or leaders for that matter,
26:39
with all the responsibilities. And you know, you have more time
26:42
then you have more things that you can do because we are human.
26:48
But this is the, the, you know, the a lot of the debate around,
26:51
you know, when they, when people like when people talk
26:53
productivity gains, what you're talking about is the human cost
26:56
to that. It's it's productivity is always
26:59
code word for, you know, reducing the amount of people
27:02
that you employ. And I think that the economic
27:05
considerations to this need to be so much more human in the
27:10
debates and the conversations we're having about it.
27:13
And yes, businesses are there to make money.
27:16
Yes, businesses are there to kind of grow or to develop and
27:20
to change and to adapt and to transform, but there always has
27:24
to be a technological plus, a human consideration to it.
27:29
And I wonder and but then that also that human consideration
27:33
isn't equal across the world and it isn't equal around how it's
27:37
perceived and how people get brought into it.
27:40
And I mean, what are you saying around if you had a crystal
27:45
ball, what would you, what would you see?
27:49
Like when we're running if you had a crystal ball, what would
27:51
you see? Is that kind of five to 10 years
27:53
time around? How do you see workplaces
27:56
gathering together in a way that kind of balances technology?
28:00
And do you see that? You see, I suppose the question
28:04
around where do you think this is going to go in probably the
28:07
near to medium term future with the conversations you're having
28:11
with leadership at the moment and work, workplace development?
28:16
Yeah. Oh, if I had a crystal ball and
28:20
I could see in the future, I would really consider the data
28:25
from the past and I would consider the fact that the fact
28:29
that changes, big changes, massive changes within
28:34
technology and business and the state of the world as well,
28:40
because we cannot ignore that they have always happened.
28:44
This is not the first time. Like this time is AI.
28:47
Next time it might be, you know, Unicorn flying, whatever.
28:51
You know, there will always be something.
28:55
And when there is that something that is always like the moment
28:58
where you have a big conversation and everyone is
29:00
just talking about these. And then we do all our
29:03
conferences on unicorns that fly and for like 5 years, 10 years,
29:08
that's the topic and that's the thing.
29:10
And then there are more quieter people who are maybe less
29:17
visible because, you know, the conversation overcomes
29:19
everything. But there are more quieter
29:23
people who are working about on something alternative or a
29:26
different approach. And then that approach will
29:29
develop and we'll not fight, but move alongside the main
29:34
conversation. And then the conversation on the
29:38
Unicorn. We stabilise.
29:41
And then you will see, OK, we can come down.
29:44
It's almost like this big nervous system for the world
29:47
where, you know, it's all over the place at some point because
29:50
there is the novelty and then it stabilises.
29:54
And then you see the reality of things.
29:56
And the reality of things are going to be that we five years,
30:00
10 years from now, we will still be humans.
30:04
We will still care about connecting.
30:07
We will still care about not burning out.
30:10
And we will care even more about being human also because I think
30:15
about the generational part as well.
30:17
And the younger generation are much more self aware and aware
30:21
and they demand much more from companies in terms of the values
30:27
and the mission. Plus they're also able to make
30:30
their own money, you know, without working in a corporate
30:33
space. So what is the answer that the
30:36
corporate spaces are going to provide to them?
30:39
So in all of these, the way I see it, and we can write it down
30:43
and then in 10 years we can. Yes, well, this is the joy of
30:47
podcasting. I hope that it will somehow go
30:48
into the ether of of recognising when the frying unicorns come.
30:52
We'll say, well, that was predicted on cutting through
30:55
with Natasha Ploughman. Yeah, 2026.
30:59
But, but it is. But I love that and I love that
31:02
kind of the common denominator is around humanity and the
31:06
common denominator is around connection and is around
31:09
building bridges and people understanding each other.
31:12
And you know, if that's if that's one message to finish
31:15
this conversation on, which has been absolutely brilliant.
31:17
So thank you so much for for coming on is that the more we
31:22
focus on build on storytelling, build on understanding our
31:25
communication style, build on understanding who we are and
31:28
what makes us tick as individuals and as collective
31:32
beings in organisations or in in in other areas, the more we can
31:38
really focus on how humanity can cut through in the age of AI.
31:43
Beatrice, what a pleasure to have you on.
31:46
I really enjoyed this conversation, so thank you very
31:48
much. And I look forward to hearing
31:51
more of what you're doing because Beatrice's book is
31:53
coming out. So I'm sure follow her on
31:55
LinkedIn, connect with her and get her book when it comes out
31:58
because I'm sure it will be a fascinating example of
32:01
storytelling in action. Thank you.
32:04
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32:09
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