Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #67 - The Garden Design Shift | Michael McCoy [The Gardenists]

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#67 - The Garden Design Shift | Michael McCoy [The Gardenists] · The Shed Organics Show

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Shed
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Organics show. Today my guest is the incredible
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Michael McCoy. Now Michael is one of
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Australia's best well known garden designers.
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You might know him from AB CS Dream Gardens, or he's also the
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voice behind his project, the Gardenist.
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And his work kind of explores not just plants and design, but
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more so like the deeper thinking and the philosophy behind great
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gardens and things like this. And I think in this
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conversation, we really touched on a lot of areas about garden
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design that I didn't expect that we might land on.
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And the way that Michael thinks about these things is incredibly
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refreshing. And it's out-of-the-box, I would
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say, because it's not somewhere that I thought you might think
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about initially as a garden design.
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You might think, I've got to design the garden, I've got to
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design the plants. But as Michael shares, that's
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not necessarily the first thing that he always thinks about.
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So if you're into garden design, horticulture, just general
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connection to what it means to be a gardener, then this
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conversation is absolutely for you.
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So without further ado, I cannot wait to show you this
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conversation. Here it is with Michael McCoy.
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My question is, what makes a what?
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At what point does it stop becoming like a collection of
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plants that we have? And when does it start moving
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into a bit more of a cohesive space?
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And I'll give you a little bit of context around that because
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someone like myself, I go around and I see plants and I go, I
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love that one. That one looks amazing.
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Or, oh, I'd love to have that. That serves this purpose for me.
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I can eat that or make a tea out of that or whatever it is.
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What, at what point do we then move into, OK, this, we need to
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start thinking about a cohesive system here, something that can
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support each other, all these different plants.
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And maybe picking that plant might not quite be the right
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decision. Talk to me about that, how that
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lands with you all. Right.
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Yeah. Well, so one of the things I'm
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forever saying is that planting is a team sport, OK?
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That that that, that what you're doing is creating a collection
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that is the the the collective effect of which ecologically or
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visually or otherwise is more important than anyone individual
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element in there, OK. And in the same way as if you
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were a sports coach of a, of a team sport and you had to put a
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team together, there might be someone who you madly really
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want to include, but that job's already done and you didn't
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know. No, I can't, right.
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So, so there's that. But there was this huge moment
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for me, I think in about 1998, something like that.
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I'm sitting in the library of Leo Schofield in Sydney, who was
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kind of head of the arts kind of at the time he was, he was
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working on the Sydney Olympic Arts Festival and the Sydney
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Arts Festival at the same time. And I'm sitting in his library
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full of this really esoteric stuff and I pull out this book
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on Baroque architecture. And so I'm, and I'm, I'm just
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sort of scanning this and I come across this sentence that is
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describing a sort of what just say about a 16th century
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redesign of Rome. And it said for the first time
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ever, this became a plan of spaces, not a plan of buildings.
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And this was just, it fell on my mind like it, everything changed
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in my brain as I realized that whilst I'm using plants to
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create a garden design, ultimately the way I feel in a
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garden is going to be about the way the spaces work.
4:00
And the plants are the building blocks that define the spaces.
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That is their primary role. I mean, it's a, it's a really
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difficult thing to to catch on to as a gardener who was always
4:11
driven by plant love to realize that the plant, the plant, I can
4:15
love the plant. And this does not reduce my love
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of the plant. But if I perceive its role
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primarily as a collection that are the building blocks that
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define the spaces I'm in, so that the way this garden
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captures and holds me is really more important than its visual
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impact. It was such a big shift for me.
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And and, you know, now I'm just so aware that for your
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listeners, that will fall as truth on some and will fall just
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as we'll just be washed golf a duck's back, you know, like
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water off a duck's back to others.
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And that's 'cause we're all different, but also we're just
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at different stages in our own journey, right?
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But it was for me, this massive moment where I suddenly realized
5:00
that, and this had been for me, the years of questioning, of
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stepping into gardens in various places around the world where I,
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I would walk into some long forgotten space and just go, oh
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man, this just feels amazing. I love being here.
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Why is this? I, you know, and you'd look
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around going, I can't actually see visually in terms of visual
5:21
beauty, why I'm loving this this much.
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But this is amazing. And then I'd step into some
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super famous garden full of flowers at some incredible state
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of sophistication and perfection.
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Just go look. It looks amazing, but it doesn't
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make my heart sting, you know? So I was trying to work out why
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I, why some places and some spaces just absolutely resonated
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and others didn't. And, and, and decided ultimately
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that I think we're a bit like bats in our ability to walk in,
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you know, that we, we step into a space and immediately detect
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how enclosed do I feel? How safe do I feel?
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How, how well does this space respond to my scale at six foot
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tall? You know, like we're reading all
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these elements around us that are really that are almost hyper
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visual. They're beyond our conscious,
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you know, visual response. And this fundamentally to me is
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what it's about the moment I think.
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And all of my garden design just starts with a plan of spaces or
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I don't even think about plants yet.
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It's how do I want this space, these this garden?
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How do I want it to open and close around me as I move
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through it? How do I want to step out of the
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house from some little contained domestic space?
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How big a space and what, what scale and shape of space do I
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want to step into in that initial transition?
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You know, so the whole thing just becomes to me, a series of
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interlocking spaces of tunnels and open round spaces or, you
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know, that that that all interlock and then I'm filling
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in with all the plants I love. But it starts with a designer
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spaces. Wow, that's well, that's really
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opened it up for me. I feel like, you know, that's
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landing because one thing that Keith Edwards actually mentioned
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in the podcast we did, he's he was quoting a lady's work and he
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said a, a good garden is one that you can't see all of it
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from your, from when you, you enter it, you can't see all of
7:15
it at once. You need to be able to be
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invited into it to then go and go, oh, what's around here or
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what's in this space? And that experience of being
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pulled into different spaces and around through the garden is
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like really kind of stuck with me.
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And now that you mentioned that the spaces are somewhat the
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functional areas of the garden, it may be where, you know, a, a
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children's little playground is a little cubby house, or you
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might have the shed that goes down there, or you might have a
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nice little table and chairs where you're going to have your
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morning cup of tea or something. And each of these spaces should
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be a different. Well, it, it serves a, a feeling
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really as well, like it's an emotional feeling.
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You need to feel safe. You need to feel like you can
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observe or all of these types of things.
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And immediately when I think of garden design, I think of
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plants. And you think of just going,
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yeah, I just need to go, OK, well, we want flowers here and
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we want vegetables here, and it's not as simple as that.
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Now, since then, since that moment then of now, thinking
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about spaces, do you think that you have become a better
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designer because of that? Do you feel Oh.
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It was a moment of total transformation and, and, and
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what, what it then fed quickly into was understanding right
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now, I'll go back one step in the story in order to make it
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anecdotal and more relatable. But I, I, I, I at some stage I
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sent a list of plants that I was suggesting for a garden to a
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client. Now don't do this anymore, but I
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I sent this list and she thought she was doing due diligence by
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going through this list and going Nope, Nope, Nope, Yep,
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Yep, Yep, Nope, Nope. And so she did some research
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online or opened it was probably before online actually, you
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know, I opened a reference book and went through went boring,
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boring. Oh, nice, nice, nice.
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Right. So, so she completely
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misunderstood this idea that a garden needs to have, you know,
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a few a listers, lots of support acts, and then quite a lot of
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just, you know, extras, so to speak, that are.
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And so I was sitting there at one point thinking, now, why am
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I using this plant? How can I justify using this
9:32
plant to this person and realize that at its simplest, I could
9:38
separate plants into two different categories.
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One were plants that were there to form the structure that
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formed the that defined the spaces.
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And the other plants were there just to decorate those spaces,
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Right, right. So, so I found that in it, it
9:53
simplified things enormously. And when I'm teaching about
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design, I'm always saying to people, right, having worked out
9:59
your spatial plan, now fill in the zones of plants that are
10:03
just there to shape that space. The trees with, you know,
10:06
arching branches that come over you in some Umbrasius way, or
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the shrubs that block the view between me and the next thing.
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And then which of the plants you're putting in there for
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purely decorative purposes that have no role in, you know,
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anything under about, you know, chest tie or waist tie doesn't
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tend to have much spatial effect.
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It's really there for decorative purposes and even some of the
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tallest stuff you're using, you're placing a tree there
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because the flowers that you love, but you are.
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But I, I really clearly separated and it's something of
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a forced of a simplification, but a really useful one to say
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these are the plants I'm using for, for spatial definition to
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create the shell of this, the sculpture that I'm walking
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through when I'm in this garden. And these are the plants there
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to decorate this sculpture. Yeah, right.
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It's a good distinction, isn't it?
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Yeah, well. You know what the other, the
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other distinction I make, and I'm saying to home gardeners all
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the time, is that when you're thinking about your, your
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garden, you're always thinking of creating the stage show.
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But as a garden designer, I have to build the stage as well as
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the stage show, right? You know, to create some amazing
11:21
troupe of dancers is one thing, but they've got to have a stage
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and a set to dance on, right? So I'm then thinking in my in my
11:28
head about which plants are there that are creating the
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stage and which of the dancers on the stage.
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Clever. I like that because then like,
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for example, it's, it's as if you've got too much of, of like
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in a, in a nice photograph, in a nice piece of artwork, you
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generally have this main, main image, main subject.
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And then the other things are supporting that.
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And if there is too much going on, if there's too many main
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characters, you're, you're drawn, you're, you're confused.
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And I, and it reminds me of the psychology of choice where
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people say, you know, when we had three movies to pick for a
12:08
family movie night, it was so much easier.
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Now that we've got endless amounts, it's just like how
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we're just paralysed by choice. And I feel like that's a similar
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thing that's going on. If you've got too many main
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characters, too many main trees, flowers, things going on, it's
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like yes, it's wow, but it doesn't allow each thing to
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stand out on its own and you probably lose a few of the the
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things in the in the mix. What so then with your garden
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design process, right? And I know this very much varies
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depending on the client goal, right?
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But if you're coming into a space you've been invited into
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to design an area, can you go through the priorities in which
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you're moving down the list in terms of the things that you're
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thinking about? Because some of the things that
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that come up, obviously we've got the, the staging that you
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just mentioned and the main characters and the plant
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choices. But also, you know, you may be
13:05
involved with doing some earthworks or doing some
13:09
landscaping first. Or you might have to worry about
13:12
the sun or the climate or the, you know, the wind, whatever it
13:16
is, the seasonal rotation of flowers, the seasonal rotation
13:20
of vegetables. What are some of the things that
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come up in that top priority list that you need to go through
13:26
1st? Yeah, it's a really good I, I my
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mind is sort of madly Googling trying to work out, you know, is
13:38
there actually hierarchically, is it possible to apply a
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similar stage hierarchical series of steps that would apply
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in all situations? And I don't know that it quite
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is, but you're right, like for the purposes of overstating,
14:00
which is kind of my stocking trade, OK, Like, yeah, it is
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that to me to work out the the to work out that spatial thing
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and and I find it really hard. I know that when I talk about
14:16
spaces, but what people are hearing is several different
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things, and I can't tell what they're hearing, right?
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So, yeah. So in order to flesh that out a
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bit, I'm thinking, what are the voids that I'm standing in?
14:29
They're the things I can inhabit.
14:30
I can't inhabit any of the solids.
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And, you know, I might be inside of planting, cutting, you know,
14:35
pruning a shrub, but that's not one of the dwelling places,
14:38
right? So the dwelling places are all
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the gaps between the plants. Right.
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Yeah, OK. So that's, that's one way of
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thinking about another way is I, I've often said to people, what
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would happen if you put a, a really multifaceted inflatable
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in your garden and pumped it up. What would the shape look like?
14:56
You know, what would all those shapes look like?
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And would it be an interesting shape?
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Would all those blobs and long tubes and things be interesting,
15:04
Right. And this came for me having been
15:07
to an installation at Melbourne Arts Festival many years ago,
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where you walked inside this big inflatable lake.
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It was like a big jumping castle, but you're walking
15:15
around inside it and you're walking down into these nodes
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and then down tunnels and through apertures into these.
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And this, to me, I just went, this is the perfect illustration
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of what walking around a garden kind of is in its most
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simplified form. True.
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OK, so, so to me, I would say that's step number one and there
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isn't another step until step five.
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OK, right. That is so important and, and
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that I'm working on a garden now.
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I don't do very much local work. I don't want to run into my
15:51
clients in the supermarket freezer aisle, you know, like,
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but I, but I've got a client nearby.
15:57
And, and for me initially, the way the house buckles and folds
16:03
dictated the way the scale of the spaces beyond that, that,
16:07
that because there's, there's quite a lot of the house goes
16:11
sort of in and out and folds lots of lots, lots of just 90°
16:15
angles and things that immediately you go, well, I
16:17
can't step into a massive that, that that fold in the house
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suggests a sort of courtyardy sort of space.
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Yeah. So I'm thinking like that and
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then thinking, OK, how do I move from that space into that space?
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Would it just be a really narrow aperture or just a suggested
16:33
separation and those kind of things.
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And all of that is before any of these spaces are assigned a
16:40
purpose. So I'm never thinking I need to
16:42
stick a BBQ somewhere. Where do I put it?
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That's that did come so far down the line.
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So the, the, the, the, the spatial thing, which frankly
16:52
ends up looking like I once made the mistake of sending a client
16:56
my initial and they just wrote back going, are you having me
16:59
on? They actually sacked me in the
17:01
moment at the immediately because they just thought I was.
17:05
That's amazing. It was ridiculous, but it was
17:07
just, you know, a series of basically ovals, circles and
17:11
tubes running around the house. Yeah.
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And, and to me, that's that's that's where I start.
17:20
And then I think, right. We've decided that we need to
17:23
have sort of an outdoor sitting area, an outdoor kitchen, like
17:27
cooking zone. Which of those spaces would most
17:31
logically be assigned that role so that the, the space is not,
17:35
is, does not start being designed in response to its,
17:39
its, its role? It's, it, it's the, the fact
17:43
that it, it looks like the best space ultimately, both in its
17:47
scale and its location to the house, right.
17:50
And so it, that's probably a little bit idiosyncratic.
17:55
Like I, I wouldn't necessarily push that.
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That should always be the case, but it's just the way I work and
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and it becomes it, it can be somewhat disquieting to the
18:06
client because they're just going, but saying, hang on.
18:08
So where am I putting them? Outdoor kitchen?
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I go, I don't know yet. Like, you know that I'm not
18:12
there yet, right? Yeah.
18:14
And whereas I find a lot of people, a lot of landscapers who
18:20
do design and construct and something will start from the
18:23
point of the walk into a site going, well, we'll put the
18:26
clothesline there, BBQ there. How about we put, you know, a
18:30
feature wall there and, and then sort of fit all these pieces to
18:34
try and turn into something that, and it's just, I work in
18:37
exactly the opposite way. I'm never deciding where
18:40
specific either visual features go or functional features go
18:45
until I've got a really good sense of the way I would move
18:49
around this garden and the way it opens and closes at 1 stage
18:53
During teaching this, someone said, oh, so it's all squeeze
18:56
and release, Squeeze and release like as you're walking, you
18:59
know, through these apertures. Yeah, that that might be offset.
19:04
They might be really strictly, you know, there might be a
19:07
gateway or it might just be two offset peninsulas of planting
19:10
coming in so that looking through 1 into the other, I know
19:13
there's a space beyond and I know that's the way I'm supposed
19:16
to head, you know. That's really clever.
19:21
You know, I don't know how clever.
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I can't assess how clever it is. That's just that I know it's the
19:25
only way I can work right, You know, but.
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But the other aspect of that in this, you know, rather deviates
19:33
from your question, but is that, you know, I've come to the
19:37
conclusion that spaces are, are either tend to fall in a
19:43
category of being static spaces that upon arrival, I just want
19:48
to pause in and dynamic spaces that keep me moving the whole
19:52
time. And, and part of the, IT is as
19:55
simple really as their proportion, whether they are
19:59
more, whether their width and their length are approximately
20:03
equal. Or in the case of, say, a long,
20:07
say, an avenue of trees, a short avenue of trees in a garden
20:10
where it's really linear along and narrow is the extent to
20:14
which it makes me want to keep walking and is taking me
20:17
somewhere compared to the spaces that once I've arrived, I know
20:21
this is a rival spot, and it might be that.
20:25
And, and, and so for me, I definitely, I don't put a, a
20:27
seat halfway down an Ave. You know, the whole point is to
20:30
be keeping walking. But then when I arrive in one of
20:33
those arrival spaces or those static spaces, that's where I'll
20:36
be going. This is where we'll have our
20:38
outdoor furniture or this is where we'll have our kitchen or
20:42
out, you know, outdoor dining, this kind of thing.
20:45
So, so in my mind, I have a very clear sense of making sure that
20:51
this is opening and closing in a rhythmic and interesting way
20:54
that it is that there are spaces assigned to just a dynamic
21:00
response and those that are arrival, you know, arrival
21:03
spots. And this can happen even in a
21:05
tiny little garden. You know, there's a garden on
21:07
one of our tours in New Zealand, really small.
21:10
This couple had retired, bought this, bought this property,
21:14
built this house in such a way that the just the narrow little
21:19
corridors around two sides of the house were used as these
21:23
dynamic spaces planted really narrow, but really beautifully.
21:27
And, and what ends up happening is that even though the space
21:30
you finally arrive at is quite small, it's such a different
21:34
scale to these narrow experiences that you just go,
21:38
ah, now I've arrived, I know where I arrived, you know, So
21:42
it's by contrast of the contraction around your body and
21:45
then the opening that you get this greatest sense of, now I've
21:49
arrived somewhere. It doesn't need to be a big
21:51
space. It just needs to contrast with
21:53
the spatial experience I've had in entering it, you know, So
21:58
certainly for me, the, the, the spaces come before any
22:05
perception of style. I don't, I'm not even thinking
22:08
wouldn't matter where the person said I want sort of a Balonese
22:10
resort or a Mediterranean dry garden.
22:13
None of that would matter. It would just be about it starts
22:17
with those, those spatial responses and then that that to
22:22
some extent ends up being a response to the contours as
22:29
well. Because if it's really steep
22:31
sight, you know that your spaces are inherently, you know, narrow
22:34
and linear. You just can't end up creating a
22:37
great big platform on a steep slope.
22:40
So to some extent it's responsive, but to some extent
22:44
it and this client's garden I was telling you about before we
22:47
just went this house looks like it's standing on its tip toes.
22:51
It's a 1850s ish bluestone house.
22:54
Looks like it's standing on its tip toes on the top of this
22:57
peninsula of land sticking out into a paddock.
22:59
And we have to somehow bring those levels up.
23:02
So this house looks like it's sitting on a pedestal that is
23:06
comfortable for it to sit on. And it used to take command of
23:10
all the land and land owned all the land around.
23:12
And I thought, well this it would work as a house sitting on
23:15
a peninsula over land that it owns.
23:18
But now that all that land has been sold off, we need to make
23:21
this thing self-contained and resolve within its own little
23:24
tiny peninsula. And the only way we can do that
23:27
is to create fairly substantial walling and create spaces around
23:32
the house that with the current contours do not exist.
23:35
But in order to make sure you don't step out the front door or
23:38
back door and feel like you're going to tumble down a slope,
23:40
you know what we need. So, so the, the, the roughing
23:45
out of earthworks in response to the spatial layout is probably
23:51
somewhere in the number 2 or #3 and long before you're talking
23:55
about, before you're even thinking about style.
23:57
Now, by now the client will have told you what style they want,
24:00
but you're, I'm, I'm not responding to that yet.
24:02
Yeah, you know at this point. Wow.
24:06
So. Hey, guys, really quickly
24:09
jumping in. I just want to remind you if you
24:11
are not subscribed to this show, then it's the number one thing
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24:26
Beyond that, you know, like I mean, if for the sake of
24:29
overstatement again, we go #1 to 5 is is the spaces.
24:34
Yeah, yeah. And.
24:35
Then and then #5 becomes roughing out of earthworks in
24:39
order to fortify that idea of spatial layout.
24:45
Beyond that, all the issues of materials you might be using and
24:52
plants you might choose, all of that is condensed into an
24:56
inseparable layer of steps 6 to 10.
24:59
You know, like they're all into working and, and, and
25:02
multifaceted. But one of the things I'd really
25:04
stress is that I can get to that point of spatial layout and even
25:10
the thoughts of rough earthworks before having a serious talk to
25:14
the client about about budget, because ultimately budget ends
25:22
up being about the materials you use to create the necessary
25:27
response to the surrounds rather than dictating the necessary
25:30
response, you know. And so this particular client
25:35
was happy to go with fairly was very cost effective stonework to
25:40
make these walls because the local a contractor does these
25:45
incredibly fast and can therefore do them and cost
25:48
effectively. But you know, if if at a low
25:51
budget, you'd go let's use sleepers to do this at a top
25:56
level budget, I'd go, let's get let's have dry Stonewall
25:59
carefully constructed by stone Mason.
26:02
You know but I but the but the result would be the same
26:05
spatially. Yeah, but that's why, that's why
26:09
I said it's clever, Michael, because I feel like the.
26:14
The. It's all driven by this just
26:17
innate feeling that you're getting when you're coming in
26:19
and you're trying to imagine the feeling.
26:21
And I and what you said about the like moving through the
26:25
space as well, like having something that draws you to keep
26:29
walking and how you said you wouldn't put a bench in this
26:34
moving spot. And it's just like it now seems
26:38
so obvious when you think about it like that.
26:39
That's why I say it's so clever because like these benches would
26:42
never get used. No one's going to sit down there
26:44
and you can't you, you might put something in there because the
26:49
client wants it or you think that it's going to be good, but
26:51
then that space doesn't serve that function.
26:54
You just don't feel the urge to go and do that.
26:56
That's why I think it's really clever because you're you're
27:00
trying to feel that feeling first before we go and then make
27:04
any decisions. Because if you've got a barbecue
27:07
in an area that you've just whacked it in, but nobody feels
27:10
like barbecuing in that area, what's the point?
27:13
Like what? What are we achieving?
27:14
Absolutely. The the feeling is just going to
27:17
trump everything else, no matter how practical or otherwise it
27:20
works. And these spaces have got to be
27:23
irresistible or people just won't go out into them.
27:25
They just won't, you know? So, Andrew, yeah.
27:28
So. So no, you're absolutely right.
27:33
And and I mean to the point that it's kind of embarrassing and
27:36
it's not something I probably want to do in front of a client,
27:38
but like I'll step out of one of the main apertures out of the
27:41
house. So the front of the back door
27:42
and and I will be using my arms to kind of go OK, I'm kind of
27:46
feeling like I need something of about.
27:49
Just. Kind of scale to the point that
27:51
I've actually thought I could actually probably almost do a,
27:54
you know, choreograph, you know, this is the dance of your
27:58
garden. Yeah.
28:00
Walked out and went right big and then narrow and then big,
28:03
you know, like. I mean, it it it in a weird
28:05
sense, yeah. I mean, that's getting very
28:10
weird. I think that might.
28:11
I think it's a bridge too far. I.
28:13
Think honestly, I think that's I was gonna kind of go down that
28:16
route with you, Michael, because I feel like that that's it.
28:20
That's something that you're feeling, right?
28:21
It's something that you're you're channeling almost if to
28:25
use that word. It's like, and coming from
28:27
someone who loves music, right, got a big creative influence in
28:31
my life. When I've ever written
28:33
something, it's it's not coming from me necessarily.
28:37
And like Steven Pressfield talks about the, you know, this kind
28:41
of ethereal zone, right? I think where he says you just,
28:45
you just pull it out and it's like it's coming from somewhere
28:49
else. It's like you just you're the
28:51
vessel of something that's coming through you, right?
28:54
And you're just feeling it out. And I don't necessarily think
28:57
that's too far. I think that's somebody who
28:59
understands what a space needs. It may be a little bit grading
29:04
to some people who's not used to that.
29:07
But Michael, like something that you've been talking about that
29:10
I've I've noticed like recently is, is more about the why, like
29:17
why we're gardening, What's the point?
29:21
And I suppose there is many points and, and like I tried to
29:24
do and oversimplified it before with your list of priorities,
29:28
because it's not like that is everything is so nuanced in in a
29:31
way, but but why do people garden?
29:35
What's the response that you're getting when you're asking this
29:39
question? Why?
29:41
Why are we doing this? We don't have a good vocab
29:49
around this and we're not used to articulating it.
29:52
And so I feel like the biggest limitation in our understanding
29:57
is our, the, the, the combination of our imagination
30:03
and our inability to nail in words what's going on.
30:09
And, you know, it was one of the things.
30:13
So I wrote my first book that I wrote was in the year I wrote it
30:17
in sort of between 97 and 99 was published in 2000.
30:21
And at that time I was asked by, I think better Homes and Gardens
30:27
or one of the, to write about this garden.
30:29
And, and I, I wrote about it as I had written the book in that
30:35
same terminology. And the, the this friend slash
30:38
editor of the garden section got back to me saying, Oh no, no, we
30:42
can't publish something in the first person where that the
30:46
editor is very proud of the fact that the only thing in the
30:49
magazine that's ever been published in the first person is
30:52
the humour page, right. And I said, so what's the
30:56
thinking? And I suspected it, but what's
30:58
the thinking? Oh, the thinking is that when it
31:02
becomes too personal, then it then it doesn't have wide enough
31:07
application. Right.
31:10
And one of the things that I came to understand with my first
31:14
book is the more articulate I became about my personal
31:19
response, the more universal I seem to be tapping into, you
31:23
know, that that people getting back going, getting back to me
31:26
going. That is exactly how I feel.
31:28
I've you know, that is that totally nails it.
31:31
Yeah. So I I absolutely do not share.
31:34
And and it was a really nice moment early on my writing
31:37
career to go, OK, I am diametrically opposing this
31:41
notion that that I have to stay general and impersonal for it to
31:46
be universal. It's just not true, Right.
31:49
So, so part of our challenge isn't part of my joy.
31:53
And I can tell already that's part of your joy is, is being
31:57
able to nail verbally or in, in, in our vocab and our
32:01
articulation, some vague truth that the moment you've nailed
32:06
it, people go, that's it, that's it.
32:08
You know, right. OK, so that that's my preamble
32:11
to this, to say that for me personally, it's, it's really
32:19
hard to know hierarchically of the various joys that gardening
32:26
provides to me, which are more important than others and, and
32:30
which could stand alone if the others fell aside, You know,
32:33
because there are, there's just the joy for me, and I'm really
32:37
discovering this as I'm getting older, the joy of the
32:40
physicality of it, you know, and last week, having spent way too
32:44
much time in admin, I just one point about 5:00 in the
32:46
afternoon, I've got to go. I've just got to get out of
32:48
here. I'm going to go and get a trail
32:49
load of mulch from the nearby dumping spot where them gets
32:52
well and and I just could feel a whole lot of brain clarity and
32:57
other stuff coming just through sheer mechanical, repetitive,
33:02
boring work. You know, amazing Claric that
33:06
brought me there's the there is the just the plant love.
33:10
I mean, for me to to to bend down, you know, and basically
33:15
lie flat next to little tiny snowdrops that are three inches
33:20
high and just look right up close to these things.
33:23
Oh, man, it's just I love it so, so much.
33:25
Right. So I've never lost that plant
33:27
love thing. Yeah.
33:28
So there's that. But I think what got me into it
33:32
in the very, very first place was something kind of much more
33:38
sort of vague. And it is this odd sense of, of
33:44
connection and resonance with what's going on around me in a
33:48
way that it it happens mostly to me in either fading or rising
33:55
light, like in, in it's sort of sunrise.
33:58
Not that I'm often out there gardening, but there have been
34:00
phases in my life when it was the only time I could garden.
34:03
More likely to happen as we're going into the fading light at
34:07
the other end of the day, doing something incredibly mechanical
34:11
and kind of mindless, like splitting firewood or something.
34:15
And I suddenly tune into like, it's like I'm suddenly aware
34:20
behind my back or around me that there's something going on and
34:24
that I've stepped into some thin place, you know, of such
34:29
connection and, and total in phaseness or resonance with,
34:37
with the biggest system. And I feel like this tiny little
34:41
part of this not not it's, it's, I want to say insignificant is
34:46
minimally significant, but essential part of this massive
34:49
big system. You know, to some extent it
34:52
reflects my spiritual walk as well.
34:56
But it is, it is just such a moment of magic that has really
35:01
only ever happened to me in a, in a garden setting and usually
35:05
doing something pretty repetitive and mindless and just
35:09
going, honestly, I could decide I'm going to live for that, to
35:13
cultivate those moments alone, you know, and, and, and I think
35:17
just to a large extent, my, my life as a gardener has been in
35:23
pursuit of those moments. That's so beautiful, Michael.
35:26
I share that so much and I think you're absolutely right by
35:29
sharing that in detail. That's really what like awakens
35:34
that in other people. You can use the language that
35:38
people I mean, like language doesn't do it justice, but we
35:41
can use the closest words that can represent how that feels.
35:44
And the word resonance really stuck out to me again, you know,
35:48
musical for me, resonance is something that's just
35:52
unharmonious. This this idea of striking A
35:56
chord, you know, that resonates really well.
35:58
And the, those moments where you're, you feels part of
36:04
something bigger. You feel like you're, you're
36:07
within it, you're contributing. You're not necessarily because
36:11
of you or, you know, without you, it would still move on, but
36:15
it feels like you've just stepped into the ring of
36:20
disconnected kind of, you know, it's the words don't do it
36:23
justice, Mark. I can't put it in words, but the
36:26
the it's just this thing that you kind of feel what you're in
36:28
the right place, you know what I mean?
36:32
Yeah, and, and sorry if I can just add for it.
36:36
So as a, as a consequence, like I, I articulated this my first
36:43
attempt at articulation. I actually read it in some other
36:46
books first. They had nothing to do with
36:50
gardening and sort of drew it into my gardening vocab.
36:53
But I have really fairly recently come to the conclusion
36:57
that I became a gardener because I in pursuit of simplicity and
37:05
silence. Yeah.
37:06
And solitude, you know, and. And silence.
37:10
For me, this, the notion of simplicity and silence and of
37:14
course, everything about the way the world will do everything it
37:18
can to stop you being silent. You.
37:21
Know. Yeah.
37:22
And and and to the point that it's, I find it much harder now
37:26
in the in the twenty 20s than in the 1980s to to access that
37:32
silence. That's something to do with
37:33
probably the complexity of my own life.
37:35
As much as, you know, technology, you know, you never
37:39
experienced silence in your life again like you experienced
37:42
between about the age of 18 and 2223, where you know, you've got
37:46
the freedom to go and drive or get escape away for a weekend on
37:50
some camping trip with no responsibility anybody else.
37:53
And you know, and you can cultivate that part of you, but
37:59
so it may not just be the changes in the cultural changes
38:02
around us that make that more difficult.
38:05
But yeah, that, that I know that's what I was pursuing.
38:09
And it's really, and I've had to make a point of stating that on
38:12
a regular basis to myself to make sure that I was corralling
38:17
the MA multifaceted aspects of, of this developing career and
38:23
and curiosity curve. Yeah.
38:27
Into a place that was, was continuing to nurture that need
38:31
for simplicity and silence and solitude.
38:34
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
38:36
I think it's something that like, maybe because I enjoy my
38:41
own company in those moments, I feel like that it gives me that
38:46
space as well to be able to be on my own.
38:49
Just just think about stuff. I used to even just have a bit
38:51
of music playing in the garden, but I've stopped that in the
38:53
last couple of years because I'd just like to just to observe,
38:57
listen, be present and something else that just reminded me as
39:02
well. That's really, it's something
39:05
that kind of sparked a lot of this for me as well.
39:08
A lot of the joy it was just to see or be part of this creation,
39:15
being creative. It's a creative force, that life
39:17
is a creative force where it's creating things all the time.
39:20
And, you know, having, having just had our, our first little
39:23
boy nine months ago, that in itself reinforced this
39:29
incredible feeling of, of this being part of this life and
39:33
creative force. And it's reinstated a lot of the
39:37
lessons that I've learned in the garden prior to this and, and
39:39
just made everything come full circle, which is really, really
39:43
beautiful. Are you a question on this?
39:45
Are you hearing a lot of these similar types of things in your
39:49
travels now that you've started talking about these more?
39:51
Is this resonating with a lot of people and and what else are
39:54
people suggesting that is the reason why they got in?
39:59
No, it it, it doesn't actually come to the forefront of a lot
40:03
of conversation. OK, really quickly, just one
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more thing. I have just launched an exciting
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new group. Jordan's Soil Society is a place
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40:24
ultimately what leads to better health for us as individuals.
40:28
So if you want to learn more about joining my Soil Society,
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hit the link at the top of the description below and you can
40:34
come and find out. All right.
40:35
Thanks for listening back to the show.
40:38
And, and partly because I guess so for instance, in leading the
40:44
tours that I lead are very much around trying to understand
40:50
gardens and trying to create a vocab around those.
40:54
We spend a lot of time on the coach talking about it.
40:57
And, and I guess this is more or less a kind of intellectualizing
41:02
or at least a deconstruction, you know, of, I don't want to
41:07
say intellectualizing because it's it's, it's incredibly
41:10
unpretentious in the sense that what we are attempting to do is
41:14
to tease out what we were describing before about the way
41:17
you feel in a garden. Our first thing is always about
41:20
how did you feel there? What do you think made you feel
41:24
that? What was making you feel that?
41:26
What were the inputs that gave you that feeling?
41:29
Because that's what we have to learn to take home, right?
41:31
And we might be gardening, you know, I'm about to take a group
41:34
Sicily and Sardinia or another group in South of France and,
41:37
and you stepping into these amazing gardens that you might
41:40
go look, I I can't recreate this.
41:42
I can't recreate the same plants, etcetera.
41:45
But what are the translatables from this?
41:47
OK, so we're talking about that all the time, but there's kind
41:52
of almost an assumed that, that the fact that you, that you have
41:57
this inarticulate, inarticulatable passion is, is
42:03
just a given, you know, so we, we don't often talk about that
42:07
and mostly it, it emerges in the much more concrete notions of
42:12
plant love or I, I, I separate to the two ideas of plant love
42:17
and planting love. And I realize that I'm, I
42:19
planting as in the sense of the collection or or not the process
42:26
of planting, but planting as in when you see a whole planting as
42:30
one, right. So that I, I decided I, now I've
42:33
moved from a place where I'm more interested in the planting
42:35
effect than the plant itself. Yeah, I still love plants, but I
42:39
love the effect of them more. Right?
42:41
Yeah. And so, so we'll talk about much
42:45
more concrete things about what what we we love about something
42:49
particular features of the landscape, particular materials.
42:53
And so all that kind of just assumes that there's this deep
42:57
passionate motivation that is so yeah, I actually haven't kind of
43:03
sat down going really trying to tease that out from people.
43:07
Why do you do it? And, and partly I think that is
43:12
because of this kind of lack of, of vocab that means that if you
43:21
can't verbalize something, it's the only form of communication
43:24
we've got. So in so far as it's beyond the
43:27
ability to communicate, then you just go, I recognize that in you
43:31
we probably can't talk about it effectively, but you know, but I
43:35
think there's to me the the most concrete reason people garden
43:41
that I come across with and I just go, man, that seems really
43:45
incredibly concrete and and to the same extent as mine is
43:51
abstract. Yours is super concrete.
43:53
Is those who garden productively for food purposes of food.
43:58
You know, I know people who actually for whom there doesn't
44:01
seem to be a lot of magic in the in in.
44:05
No, that's not true. A lot of vague that that seems
44:09
to be free of a lot of the you know what would just say the
44:14
sort of almost. Sentimentality of it or like,
44:17
yeah and. It's and it's just a functional
44:19
thing, but I can see how that can be a consuming passion.
44:23
I don't mean to in any way reduce or undervalue that.
44:26
Yeah. But it does seem to me that that
44:29
that they are often the people who I just go, man, I just, I
44:32
can't imagine gardening for something so concrete.
44:35
Is that because mine is so, you know, wonderfully vague and I
44:39
can tell they're looking on going.
44:40
What the hell? How is this guy talking about?
44:42
I just want to, you know, grab a really good broccoli, head of
44:45
broccoli, you know, so, so I think certainly there, there's a
44:52
lot of people, a lot more people now who are engaging with
44:56
gardening from a point of view of honouring biodiversity.
44:59
And I'm just loving this so, so much.
45:02
You know, one of the things I would say at least once a week
45:06
in a conversation like this is that gardening, when I started
45:11
out as a gardener in the 80s, my quality and measure as a
45:16
gardener would have been the extent to which I could modify
45:19
the conditions to best match the needs of the plant, right?
45:23
You know so. I I could jam pack this soil
45:26
full of all rich food and organic matter in order to grow
45:30
the perfect dahlia and, and just to have that dahlia perform at
45:35
99.5% of capacity. Right now the whole thing is
45:40
swung right around. My thinking is now these are my
45:43
conditions. What plants can I introduce into
45:46
those conditions that will perform to an acceptable to high
45:49
level without a lot of modification?
45:52
Yeah. Yeah, because it's about input
45:55
as well, right? Because a garden, like a garden
46:00
can only work as well as the amount of time that the gardener
46:04
can put into it, right? Because if you've got all these
46:08
plans to have something that requires a lot of input, a lot
46:12
of compost, a lot of like checking and watering every
46:15
single day. If if your lifestyle doesn't fit
46:19
that, then that's not going to work and it's not going to work
46:22
for very long. You're not going to feel good
46:23
about it and it's not going to give you the things that we're
46:25
we were speaking about before. So I feel like having a little
46:31
bit of an understanding as to how the space is going to
46:36
operate and how you're going to operate within the space.
46:39
That must be a conversation that a lot of, well, I know a lot of
46:44
gardeners and landscape designers, all these different
46:47
garden designers are talking to their clients about.
46:49
Is this the dreamer versus the realist?
46:53
Like trying to kind of balance out this fabulous idea that
46:58
either we or, or that they have and then trying to carefully fit
47:04
it within the realistic ways of their lifestyle or, or the
47:08
conditions or, or whatever it is.
47:11
Is that a a conversation that you're regularly having or
47:14
finding a balance between with people?
47:18
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I, I, I very rarely do I have it
47:22
really overtly with a client. It's more often than not you
47:25
pick up, you know, how much do they want to be involved?
47:28
And one of the lovely things about having the, the living in
47:33
the ironic, ironically termed portfolio career is that I can
47:41
increase or decrease my level of design work according to the
47:46
client, You know, how much, how attractive I, how no, I, how to
47:51
what extent the client wants to be engaged with a garden.
47:54
I'm not at all interested in doing the kind of design work of
47:58
people with a lot of money who just want to hand over not, you
48:01
know, and, and that's where most of the design money is, frankly,
48:05
you know, I would have been far better to have just started
48:07
doing that. But, and I don't, I, you know,
48:10
I, I don't know whether I claim any kind of moral high ground
48:13
from, from not doing so. It's just, I just know that I
48:17
find it a bit dispiriting, you know, whereas I know a lot of
48:20
people have gotten pretty wealthy on doing that and good
48:23
on them, you know, exactly pull marks to them, right.
48:26
But, but yeah, I usually just can detect that quite early.
48:31
And I tend now anyway to get clients who have got who have
48:38
garden aspirations and are willing to work it.
48:40
Yeah. You know, that, that people who
48:42
pursue me kind of, I guess know that they're horticulturally
48:47
quite complex gardens and that, you know, there's.
48:49
So, yeah, I think that's reasonably safe to say
48:53
immediately. I can think of multiple
48:55
exceptions, but I think about 10 or 15 years ago, I just went.
48:58
I just don't want to work for garden haters anymore.
49:01
I want to work for garden lovers, you know, people who
49:04
and, and not just because of not, not just because they're
49:08
more fun to work with. I mean, because they actually
49:11
can often be quite interfering in a way that a client, a rich
49:14
client that just goes ring me when it's done.
49:16
Yeah, he's not. But it's more the fact that I'm
49:20
totally convinced that an owner can bring a can bring qualities
49:25
into a garden that no designer can ever hope to apply, you
49:30
know, a heart and a spirit and a character that that only they
49:36
can bring. And I want that thing because
49:38
I'm not that interested in gardens without that thing, You
49:41
know, that's. It's a it's a soul, a beating
49:42
heart that has to run through it.
49:44
Yeah, I I tend to agree. Can I can I just in reference to
49:50
your your beautiful summary before about the you know, the,
49:54
the amount of work. I can't quite remember how you
49:59
how you put it, but the the best, the the most, the the
50:04
simplest way I've heard this said was by Thomas Rayner,
50:07
landscape architect in the States, who said that basically
50:10
every landscape has a memory. What is the landscape memory?
50:13
What does this landscape want to be right?
50:16
What would it default to being? And every time you're trying to
50:20
create something that is too much of A deviation from its
50:23
landscape memory, it will require inputs to keep it there,
50:28
right? Inputs of time or imports of
50:31
food, inputs of water. So that the bigger the deviation
50:36
from its landscape memory, the harder you're going to have to
50:39
work to achieve that. Now, that's not to say that
50:43
those of us who love gardening are not prepared to put in that
50:46
work. And and that he's not even
50:48
saying that there's no valid way of gardening except in response
50:52
to its landscape memory, but just being realistically saying
50:56
the further you deviate from that, the harder it's going to
50:59
be to maintain it. Yeah, absolutely.
51:01
Right. It's the ecological succession
51:03
that the space is running through in itself, right.
51:06
You're kind of looking and going well.
51:08
I mean, and it's what I do a lot of the time.
51:10
I'll go, well, you've got clay soil, right?
51:12
Or you've got sandy soil. Like let's have a think about
51:15
the progression. If we actually looked at at a
51:18
space that you would leave for centuries, what would happen to
51:22
it? Where is it moving?
51:23
What happens? The weeds come in, the grasses
51:25
come in, they start to colonize it starts to change it.
51:28
You know, these types of things you can then harness to steer it
51:32
in the direction that you you want and you can't or it's
51:35
wrong. It's just that you need to be
51:37
aware of that so that you're not swimming too far upstream.
51:42
To wrap up, Michael, because I could speak to you for a long
51:45
time on all these different topics.
51:46
I just want to kind of round out with something that I really
51:49
enjoy asking. And it's about what's top of
51:53
mind for you at the moment. And we spoke about this earlier.
51:56
I think it might have been off camera, but we we love sharing
52:01
about what we're learning currently, what we're thinking
52:03
about and what tends to be swimming around in our head when
52:06
we're in those moments in the garden where we're chopping wood
52:09
or we're doing something mechanical and we've got these
52:12
times to sort of hash out ideas in our head.
52:15
What are some of those ideas that you're thinking about at
52:17
the moment mate? One of the things that I'm that
52:23
we've already discussed it to some extent, but is this notion
52:28
of the shift in mode, the paradigm shift that has occurred
52:33
over my career. And that where that is moving to
52:38
and the kind of world of rewilding and naturalism and
52:42
where that sits alongside horticulture and to what extent
52:47
it can sit alongside horticulture and to what extent
52:50
they become mutually exclusive, right?
52:51
So I'm what I'm, I am thinking about a lot is this notion
53:00
that's emerging around designers designing a system and releasing
53:07
a system in place that has no particular visual outcome,
53:11
right? That that my quality as a
53:14
designer has been for nearly all of my career being measured on
53:18
my ability to dream up something either spectacularly original or
53:21
deeply satisfying or whatever. And to then put A to to then put
53:26
the steps in place to get to the place that I pre imagined,
53:30
right. And and my my ability was my
53:33
imagination for the end result. Yeah.
53:36
What's happening more out of places like NEP Castle in the UK
53:43
is, is putting a planting system in place with a lot of
53:46
ecological integrity and ecological pre thinking and then
53:50
having gardeners in there whose job it is to respond to the way
53:55
it's going and not to drive it to a particular outcome.
54:00
Yeah. And this to me, the challenge
54:04
for me as a designer, I honestly think is, you know, about 1062
54:10
later this week, you know, so is, is to go.
54:15
Is there enough time left for me to actively see this paradigm
54:19
shift through? And, and actually have I got the
54:23
nimbleness of brain, heart and mind to make this shift where I
54:28
stop imagining the end result and driving to the end result
54:33
and more get to a place where I'm just going creating a system
54:36
that is not self governing. But well, you have a nine month,
54:41
you have a nine month old now. You have no idea what he, he
54:47
yeah, he's going, he is going to look like or what his character
54:50
quality is going to be like age 18 or 25, right?
54:54
But you are at every point going to be going to be just gently
55:00
directing him left and right along those pathways to a place
55:03
where he can live a successful and free life, right?
55:06
Yeah, but. Not with a particular mind, and
55:09
not not with a particular vision in mind at all.
55:12
You're just guiding it left and right because.
55:14
That's where it becomes dangerous, right, if you try and
55:17
impose something that you, especially in parenting, but
55:20
probably happens as well in the garden, all right.
55:23
Yeah, it it's incredibly dangerous, you know, and I've
55:25
just, I've yesterday got home from being away for the weekend
55:28
for the marriage of my second daughter.
55:30
Beautiful. Congratulations.
55:32
Yeah. Thank you.
55:34
And I look at my three children and go that they are so not just
55:39
the sum of my wife and I. They're so not just that.
55:42
And thank goodness they're not. What I love most about them is
55:45
how different they are from us. Right.
55:47
Yeah. And what I could not have pre
55:48
imagined. True.
55:50
And, and so in a similar way with gardening and, and, and I'm
55:55
having, I'm due to have conversations later this year at
55:58
a conference in Italy in a town called Bergamo.
56:02
It's this amazing naturalistic planting conference.
56:05
And I'm guided having these round table discussions with
56:08
James Hitchmore, who designed part of the Nepcastle and the
56:11
gardener at Nepcastle and the designer Luciano Jubilai and his
56:16
gardener in Majorca. And both of them are working on
56:19
this basis of having put a system in place that the
56:23
gardener becomes that, that, that it's not even maintenance,
56:26
that the management and care of this process is possibly more
56:34
dictatorial or prescriptive of the outcome than the initial
56:38
designer's vision. Now, this is a whole new notion,
56:41
you know, like as a designer, and do I have the nimbleness to
56:44
manage this myself? Do I have enough work left in
56:47
me? I don't know.
56:48
And you know, there's too many other things going in my life as
56:50
well. So, but it is really interesting
56:53
to me to think through what are the limits of this?
56:54
Where does it all fall apart? You know, how much can nature be
56:58
allowed to express herself? Yeah.
57:02
And how much is a garden? How much?
57:05
Once Upon a time, you know, in a the most successful garden,
57:10
gardens were nature madly trying to do her thing, but absolutely
57:15
bound by the vision of the garden and the designer go.
57:17
No, no, no. You want to go there, but we're
57:19
taking you there, right? Yeah.
57:21
And. And increasingly, it's getting
57:23
to the point of going, no, no, I love what nature's going to do
57:26
here, but I'm part of nature. And my collaboration with this
57:29
thing is a natural process in that sense, you know, and that
57:33
and that therefore it's a perfectly valid collaboration
57:38
with me, with nature. But I do want her to express
57:40
herself. I want her freedom to express
57:42
herself. I'll, I love in my own garden
57:45
the things I love, most of the things I couldn't plan for.
57:47
Yeah, that's incredible. And so therefore it can that
57:52
work in my design work? Can that work in my design work?
57:56
Can I find the gardeners or the, you know, with the with the
57:58
heart and the passion to be able to take something on and go, you
58:03
know, I'll put the system in place, but can you?
58:05
This is I'm handing over this little baby for you to guide to
58:11
an unknown outcome. There we have it, ladies and
58:30
gentlemen, how fabulous is Michael, How amazing is his
58:33
point of view? And if you are thinking about
58:36
designing your garden, if you're not so lucky to be able to
58:40
schedule Michael in to come and help you, then thinking about it
58:44
in the way that he does, I think can really help unlock a lot
58:48
more satisfaction in the end result where you not only can
58:52
view your garden as something that is really beautiful, but
58:56
you feel the beauty within it. You feel right in all of those
59:00
spaces. As.
59:01
I said something that I hadn't even considered when designing a
59:04
garden, so I absolutely loved having that perspective and
59:07
being taught that from Michael today.
59:10
If you enjoyed the episode, you can go and check out Michael's
59:12
links in the description below. Please go and check out his
59:15
whole gardenist website as well. Some incredible information on
59:20
there. There's so much that can be
59:22
found there for him. You can go and see him on his
59:25
YouTube channel on the the Dream Gardens on the ABC.
59:28
There's still episodes of that. There's so much that he has to
59:31
offer. So you can go and find all of
59:32
those links in the description below.
59:35
The other link that you'll be able to find down there is to My
59:38
Soil Society that I have just launched.
59:40
And there is so much incredible value being created behind this
59:44
group. You can be a part of the
59:45
Facebook group just by hitting the link in the description.
59:48
You can sign up. It is only $2.99 for the month.
59:51
And that is to show your support to me for all the incredible
59:54
value that I will be bringing for all of you in this group.
59:58
Not only do we get to do this, we get to hang out.
1:00:00
We have some Zoom conversations. And we can also do some live
1:00:04
streams as well where you can learn so much about the soil
1:00:07
underneath our feet and how that can make you a better gardener
1:00:11
or a better connection to our land as well.
1:00:14
So if that intrigues you, go and click the links in the
1:00:17
description, share the episode around, follow it on the
1:00:19
platform that you're listening to.
1:00:21
Otherwise, thank you so much. See you on the next episode.
1:00:24
See you next week. Take care and bye for now.