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Episode 5: Setting the Table for a Pleasant Mealtime · Talking FACS

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Music.
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Big Blue Book Club presents SNACK Club with Courtney Luecking and Anna Cason
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featuring Raising a Happy, Healthy Eater and
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How to Raise a Mindful Eater. Now, here are our hosts.
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Feeding children is an adventure. And at some point or another,
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you might have had questions like, am I doing this right? Or is this normal?
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Headlines, things we see online, things we hear from family and friends,
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and even unpacking what we see in the store can have us questioning what to feed our children.
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We want children to have what they need to lead happy, healthy lives.
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And it seems like as soon as we figure something out, it changes.
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That's where we come in. My name is Dr. Courtney Luecking. I'm a registered dietitian
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and extension specialist for family and child nutrition.
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This means I have lots of training and expertise about child nutrition.
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I also have two littles of my own. This combination allows me to talk through
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practical science-based strategies for creating a nourishing feeding environment for your family.
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And my name is Anna Cason. I'm a registered dietitian and Extension Associate in Food and Nutrition.
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I don't have kids of my own, but my interests and passion lie in supporting
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healthy food-related behaviors which begin in childhood.
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In partnership with the University of Kentucky Cooperative Extension Service,
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we present SNACK Club, where we share bite-sized bits of information for Supporting
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Nourished, Active Children in Kentucky.
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So come for the snacks and stay for the support.
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Hi, Courtney. How are you? I'm good. How are you? We switched it up. You got me.
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This episode might feel a little different. I love it.
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So we previously talked about successful meal times and a lot about structure
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and boundaries, but I don't want us to get too far from the fact that we want food to be pleasant.
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You and I talk about and think about food a lot. It's just part of our jobs.
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And so we don't want people to think we're too like nuts and that's what all
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we want them to talk or think about.
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So we really are here to talk about like some fun aspects of mealtime and how
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to make it what you want it to be.
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So first I want to pose a question to you and those who are listening,
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I want you to think about this as well. What is...
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A fond or memorable mealtime that you can look back upon, whether as an adult or a child?
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I would probably say not like a specific date that I have in mind,
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but whenever we were younger, we used to go to my granddad's house every Sunday
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for Sunday dinners and our cousins would be there.
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And so it was a nice ritual that we did weekly.
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So tell me more about what, so who all was there?
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So it was my dad's side of the family.
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So my granddad on my dad's side and his siblings and then their kids,
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my cousins. And he had a huge backyard.
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So we would get there early. We would eat at six o'clock on the dot every week.
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Okay. It's very structured.
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Okay. So we would get there early and the kids would play in the backyard with
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the wagon and the ball and soccer ball and all the things.
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We would have our playtime and then six o'clock on the dot, we would gather
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around and serve ourselves.
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Okay. And then we would sit at the kids' table. The kids would sit together
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and then the adults were in the dining room.
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I still feel like I should sit at the kids' table. It's much more fun.
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I can't believe it. It's truly, it is, honestly.
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Yeah. Yeah, I think we still do that, like, generationally. I'm like,
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oh, there's, like, the little, little kids, and then there's,
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like, the big kids table.
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There's still kids, yeah. Yeah. I love that.
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What else about that? So it sounded like the people were really memorable.
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Is there anything else that you look back upon those meals and you're like,
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that's what made it so special or so lovely?
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So we didn't have the same thing every week, but there was definitely, like, a menu.
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My granddad was very set in his ways, so he had the foods that he liked.
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So it was always the same-ish foods, just in a different rotation.
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And they're foods that I still make today for my husband and I. So sweet.
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Okay. So really impactful. A Sunday evening.
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And I'm hearing you talk about a lot of the elements that were brought up in
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the books that we read about rituals and maybe feeling gratitude and family meals.
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So people gathering together. So maybe let's talk about rituals and what that means.
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Because I think in some of our minds, it sounds very strict or rigid or only with special occasion.
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So based on what we read and your thoughts, what does rituals mean when it comes
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to mealtime? So I think part of it was the rigid side of it, the structure.
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Like I mentioned, it was the same time every week.
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But also we had the ritual of saying grace at the beginning of the meal.
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So we all got together for that.
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And then at the end of it, the kids would help clean up the kitchen.
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And then we would all share our gratitude before we left. We would thank Popo,
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my granddad. So it was just a...
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It was a very pleasant experience all around. Yeah. So these are small ways
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that we can build ritual into every day.
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So you talked about saying grace, and that can mean a lot of things or different
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things to a lot of people, but that can also signify to children who maybe are
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busy playing or easily distracted during meals.
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That might help them. Or maybe it's a special song that you all like,
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but letting children know it is time to eat. And actually, this is really evident
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in preschool child care settings.
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They oftentimes will have a song or something that they recite, whether it's grace.
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And so it all just kind of like it's child care, preschool. They're amazing.
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They're magical. They wrangle all the children. But that's one way to kind of
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signify. And same thing. You could bookend it. Like you said, gratitude.
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Those could be rituals. Or you talked about how you all contributed to it.
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So you served yourselves, you helped clean up at the end.
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So there are steps all throughout the process that we could include children
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that would be kind of a routine or ritual, if you want to call it that.
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Almost like a good habit to get into for now when they're younger and then also
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to carry on into the lessons adulthood.
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Yeah. So what are some of the other small ways that children could be in part
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of that process of getting the meal either to the table or setting the table? Yeah.
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Well, that's one way, depending on their age, of course, and the equipment that they should use.
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They could help set the table. They could help in the kitchen.
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They can help ahead of time at the grocery,
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helping to pick out food or helping in that planning process and deciding what
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part of the the meal they want to contribute to, and then getting them involved
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in the kitchen, helping actually set the table and serve themselves.
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And then also at the end, just having an understanding that when we are finished with our meal,
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kids can bring the plates to the sink or to the dishwasher, or they can scrape
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the food off into the compost or the trash and then help wipe down whatever. So having that...
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Ritual or that habit kind of instilled. Yes.
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And as you were talking, the words rhythm and routine were coming to my brain.
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Yes. And I feel like we, our family has finally gotten to that,
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at least for now, now that we have like a 19 month old, it's like,
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okay, we've made it through the phase of like, she's always wanting to nurse
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when in time for me to eat or things like that.
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And so we do have this nice rhythm and flow.
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And so figuring out how children can contribute.
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And for the mealtime and moves on. I'm just thinking when you're talking about
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the table, some kits are really artistic.
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Some are really, and that could be like drawing or that might be music.
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So maybe it is creating a, in fact, beautiful space for the table,
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whether they color placemats or create some sort of centerpiece or the music,
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maybe selecting music to have play in the background.
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There's some scientific evidence that the book's kind of hinted on,
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but that like the atmosphere within which
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we surround ourselves when we eat can influence kind
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of what we eat or how much creating that ambience ambience
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yes yes music set your mood at home dim the lights no we're just kidding it
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is odd though when you're in restaurants and all of a sudden like the light
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dim and you're like what is happening are you cooking yourself i know i've never
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been out that late no i'm just kidding all right the rituals let's also talk about gratitude?
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What are, you know, if we're having a rough day, it can feel kind of challenging.
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So what are some ways we can build gratitude into our.
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I think one of the obvious ways is to show the appreciation for the food that
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is on the plate or on the table because it can take a lot to get there.
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So just being grateful that, one, you have food in front of you and for the
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process that it's gone through and for the preparation that it's taken from
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caregivers and kids if they've been involved too.
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So like vocalizing it. I like that.
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And it's such a small token of appreciation. appreciation but
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again when we find gratitude
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or participate in gratitude practices that can have
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a lot of positive effects on our mental health then it can go a long way it
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can and so maybe that is part of your grace that you say or just you said expressing
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or like simple as last night i came home and my husband had he made quiche for
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dinner our oldest had been requesting that and.
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So i was like oh it smells so good and he opened the oven he was so proud there
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were two there was one that was more veggie heavy, one that had a little bit more meat in it.
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So he was like honoring our taste preferences, but just sitting there,
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I said, thanks for dinner, dad.
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This is really good. You know, simple as that. And like acknowledging,
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I appreciate your, your work to pull this together for us. So, yeah.
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So I think that's a great way to show gratitude for the food,
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but then you can also show your gratitude for something that's not food related.
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And maybe everyone shares something that they are thankful for that happened
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during the day or Or something they're
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proud of that they did or that they witnessed happen during the day.
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So showing that gratitude and just really creating that uplifting environment
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and that positive environment surrounding mealtime.
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And I love that as an opportunity to try to get a window into what's going on in children's lives.
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Because I feel like the older they get, they do more on their own.
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So you don't have kind of the constant updates of like, your child ate this
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and went to nap at this time. You know, it's like, how was your day?
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Fine. I will say, I remember my mom picking us up from elementary school and
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she would always ask how our day was.
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And that's how we responded. It was fine. It was good. No details.
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I don't know what happened during the day, but yeah, it was fine.
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So, but if I told you, tell me something great that happened today.
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You can't just say it was fine. It was fine. Or you couldn't say it. It was fine.
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It was fun you would hopefully say although my oldest
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right now she is in the phase she's like nothing yeah I'm like
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okay nothing your your camp was horrible today
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you got to jump on inflatables and eat ice cream it was awful and
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then she just gives me this like smirk half smile side eye like I'm on to you
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and I'm like oh no i love the idea of we do it now whenever i go to my parents
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for mealtime with my siblings like doing peaks and valleys or roses and thorns
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or highs and lows. So really thinking about.
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The great thing that happened during your day. And then maybe something that
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was like kind of a downer.
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And at a mealtime a while ago with a friend and her nephew, who is like five,
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he was like, you have the rose and then the thorn and then the stem.
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And the stem is something that it was like, fine, but it's like,
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you're kind of looking forward to it.
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It happened. It was just like in the water.
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And I was like, oh, a little five-year-old came up with this new concept.
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I was like, he's a deep thinker. Wise.
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We've got like a wise old troll there.
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I love that. Kind of also like grounding, right? It's your stability.
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Yeah. It's like you were talking, it's like, oh, thanks about stability.
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And I think it's important, you know, again, we're not trying to paint it all
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roses and rainbows or unicorns.
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And so knowing that that creates a support system.
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And notice that like a lot of these things that we're talking about are not
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about food. We talk about food
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a lot because that's our job and it doesn't always have to be about food.
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So wanting to just really make that obvious that we can make mealtimes pleasant,
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not only with the flavors of what we eat, but just, again, what's happening around that. Yeah.
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Although, yeah, I'm kind of laughing, rolling my eyes in my head.
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So like, this sounds great. And sometimes it will happen and sometimes it won't, right? Right.
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But again, those rituals, those routines, getting people together.
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So not everything works.
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Needs to be about food. And I think that ties into holidays,
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which was in one of the chapters that a lot of our holidays are about food,
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but what could it look like if they were less about food?
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Yeah. So kind of shifting the focus away from food, even though we're not saying
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to take food off the table, but I always think about Thanksgiving because I
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feel like that is the food holiday,
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thinking about the big feast on the table.
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So again, kind of just taking the focus off food and sharing what you were thankful
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for that happened in your day or your week or something that you're looking forward to,
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or getting kids involved with like making a centerpiece for the table,
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getting their creative side or making placemats or something.
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And again, it's incorporating something into the mealtime, but it's not,
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we're not focusing on the food.
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Right. And it could be beyond. I think one of my favorite memories was our flag
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football games growing up on Thanksgiving.
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But at a certain point, they got a little too aggressive. Like people were jamming fingers.
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And so I think it ultimately faded away. We used to do kickball on Mother's Day.
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But same thing, the adult, it was always adults versus kids.
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And then the kids got old enough that they were starting to beat the adults.
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And that's what okay fair enough
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fair enough but see these are things like these rituals that we
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associate with holidays so it could be totally random yeah
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whether you like turkey trots we've always enjoyed those as well or lately we
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and our holidays have looked different because we moved away from a lot of our
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family and so the feelings that i had about holidays growing up it's been kind
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of this tough transition but it's also been freeing like what do we want our holidays to look like.
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And so the food is your own tradition.
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Yes. The food is not at all the same. And it often is like, let's get this already
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prepared from this other place.
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Cause while that food was great, I don't want to be in the kitchen all day preparing it.
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So knowing that there's other ways to tie in and it's still okay to like have
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food be a central piece to the holidays too.
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So we're not saying, oh my gosh, just forget about the candy at Halloween.
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Forget about the pumpkin pie and Thanksgiving.
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Yeah, that's not it at all. So, you know, let's talk about how holidays is a
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great way to think about it, especially that season towards the end of the year.
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But even just incorporating these foods that are just so delicious and how to
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do it in a way that still meets within we're supporting the nourish nutritious
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diet and we still get to have that pleasure and experience of foods.
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Yeah. So really thinking about sweets, sweet treats, essentially.
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Everyone loves sweets. We all, I mean, our bodies just like sugar.
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So, incorporating that in, like the book suggests, including like dessert as part of the meal.
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So, instead of separating dinner and dessert, having dessert on the side and
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then just neutralizing that it is a sweet treat, but it's also just like a part of the meal.
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It contributes something to that meal also. Yeah.
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And I think where it can, there can be some struggle is like,
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how much do we, I'm going to use air quotes, let children eat?
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Because again, children, that their role is to determine whether and how much
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to eat of something, how much or how often we offer these foods. those.
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And so maybe we can talk through, there was a really nice chart in the how to raise a mindful eater.
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And they called this, I think it was something about goodie management plan
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or something, but, or flexible goodies, it's policy.
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So yes, one approach is serving a small portion with dinner and just building it in there.
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Another was this 90-10 rule. So maybe children get to choose a certain number
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of goodies and it doesn't have to be sweets.
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Like we, like you said, most Most of us have more of a sweet tooth and it could
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be more of those salty, savory things exactly that we include and letting kids choose what they like.
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Or maybe it's a once a day policy, or maybe it's a couple times a week policy.
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The word policy sounds so formal, but like the boundaries, we're thinking about
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boundaries about incorporating these foods.
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And so there is no one right approach. And what might work for a while might
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not at another time. And I can just speak to that with my oldest.
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Like, sweets weren't really a thing growing up. We just didn't introduce them.
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And therefore, they became less of a thing.
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And then she got out into the world and became more of a frequently exposed
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thing and really liked the taste and then kind of like hit a peak of success.
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Just like really wanting to eat these foods. And so figuring out what that looks
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like for us, we have tried incorporating it with dinner and that seems to go pretty well.
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Or even earlier in the day, I know one of the books said those suggestions, but that has helped.
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Like when she had a treat at her summer camp this week, it was an easy reminder
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about like, oh, well, you already had a treat today, so we can have another one tomorrow.
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I think they use the example of having cookies and milk as a snack so that it's
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It's not like something that they are waiting their whole day for at the end
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of the night after they finish all their other meals and snacks,
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then they get to have the sweet treat.
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But just, yeah, sweets can be a part of any balanced and nourishing diet.
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Yeah. And non-contingent on, did you eat your vegetables?
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Like I know for a while she was like, I ate my vegetables. And I just responded,
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having dessert has nothing to do with eating all your vegetables.
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Not using it as a reward. word or so just
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kind of like being clear about why or
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when we're incorporating it yeah and so again
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there might be some pushback so it goes back to those boundaries and depending
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on the age of your child it might be working together to decide what makes sense
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right now and then just helping remind kids again how they feel like and if
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if you want to eat it that's great let's really enjoy it.
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But if you don't like it, let's figure out something else that would bring more joy or pleasure to eat.
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And I know we've done that a couple of times where you take a bite.
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I have had those things when you eat something from your childhood and you're
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like, oh, I loved having this in my lunchbox.
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And then I'm like, wait a second, this does not taste at all like I remember it. So disappointing.
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Yeah, it is. I love in the How to Raise a Mindful Eater, principle three they
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have a quote at the beginning and it's from evelyn tribulio and says if you
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don't love it don't eat it and if you love it savor it so like really being
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in the moment and enjoying,
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whatever the food is yeah.
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And I think that plays really well into the holidays. Again,
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instead of being like, oh, it's so bad, or I'm moving off course,
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or talking to children about food and that way, or even just around them in that way.
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Kiddos can pick up on that, enjoying it.
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Like, oh my gosh, you only make this once a year?
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Yes, I'm going to eat it. And then I'm going to eat it for breakfast with coffee the next morning.
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I'm going to have a leftover for three to five days. Exactly, exactly. Exactly.
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So really just thinking about the pleasure of the taste, kind of looping back
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in what we talked about earlier, the pleasure of the company,
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the pleasure of the mood, or just trying to find small pockets of joy.
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Because again, there still can be chaos.
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Which that will feed forward into our next episode but
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before we close out one of the things that really i
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thought was such a nice reminder and how to raise
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a mindful eater was the section on why children crave carbs
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and i just laugh because we we i
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even joke about it too but are you you know i'm like
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oh adults will be like what are you carb loading for
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and i'm just like for life but really they are
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willing for the day exactly because they're
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kind of demonized carbs are viewed to
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be not so great and we've talked about this before but they are such
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an important source of energy particularly for growing
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brains and children's brain development is explosive in those early years and
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so i think being less concerned about the craving for carbs and focusing Focusing
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on the quality of the carbs that we are. Fruit has carbohydrates in it.
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Most dairy products have carbohydrates in it.
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Our grains, especially whole grains. So I think I don't want this,
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you know, by saying carbohydrates are carbs that we automatically think of cake
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or cookies or things of that nature. Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So just, it's okay. Like when you're like,
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oh my gosh, you only ate the noodles.
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Okay. That's good. You ate the noodles. Yeah. Not you only. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. So I think just taking a breath, relaxing, and reminding ourselves that
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part of that just seems to be a little bit of normal development and walking
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through a little bit of the science where as children got older,
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their preferences for the sweetness started to decrease a little bit.
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And so we don't need to talk negatively about it or make people feel shame for
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wanting to eat those types of foods.
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It's just on us as the adults then to figure out what that quality looks like for nourishing.
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All right. So to recap our pleasurable, more pleasant meal times,
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what are our tips and strategies for that?
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So finding a ritual or a habit that works for you, and maybe that's saying grace
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or starting meal with a song so that everyone can kind of set their mind and
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understand like, okay, mealtime is happening.
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And then being in the moment and enjoying it and showing your gratitude for
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the meal, or again, taking a step back and showing gratitude and taking the
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focus off food for maybe the day and then enjoying the company.
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Yeah. And then incorporating those tasty foods, whatever those look like for you.
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Figuring out what that looks like for your family in terms of boundaries for
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how often and whether you say, okay, we have this amount offered or occasionally
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letting them eat as much as their heart's desires of those types of foods.
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Those are ways that we can incorporate those.
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The holiday season will be coming forward just push ourselves to
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maybe reframe how we think about things and still
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try to give these things a try yeah right i
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don't know about you Anna but i actually feel a little bit more relaxed i do
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too after this one maybe because we've been talking about such lovely yeah pleasant
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mealtime topics but next time when those mealtimes are a little less pleasant
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the reality maybe yeah so this is what our instagram like what meals we what
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we We pretend they're like, and then, yes.
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And then I'm envisioning my children running around the table while I'm just
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sitting there trying to eat. That's what we'll tackle next. The dumpster fight.
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The dumpster out. Yes. You're just walking out like.
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My hair is disheveled. Yeah. So next time, join us. We'll be talking about that.
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Yeah. All right. Thanks for joining. As always, if you have questions,
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if you want to share the topics that are on your minds, you can email us at
24:39
snapclub, S-N-A-C-K-C-L-U-B@uky.edu.
24:45
And for resources or different ideas, check out the show notes and as always
24:50
visit your extension office.
24:52
All right. We hope you'll join us again. Thanks for joining us for another episode of SNACK Club.
24:56
Resources related to the topics discussed in this episode can be found on our
25:00
website linked in the show notes.
25:02
Your local cooperative extension office is also a wealth of information and
25:06
can provide links to local resources.
25:08
If you have other topics you would like to hear about, send us a note at snackclub@uky.edu.
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That's S-N-A-C-K-C-L-U-B@uky.edu.
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And as a reminder, the digestible bits of information we share are like navigation
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signs for your feeding journey, but you may need to contact a healthcare provider
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for more personal advice.
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And last but not least, special thanks to our team behind the scenes.
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Mindy McCulley for for bringing this audio and video file to life with her technology
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skills and to the people through her marketing magic.
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And to Kelli Thompson for her creative ability to turn one conversation into
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our SNACK Club symbol. We hope to see you again soon.