Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / "Reward Over Sanction" - The Headteacher who says he cut suspensions by 85%: The Twilight Show with Tony Harwood and Yannick Berland

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"Reward Over Sanction" - The Headteacher who says he cut suspensions by 85%: The Twilight Show with Tony Harwood and Yannick Berland · Teachers Talk Radio

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Good evening educators and welcome to The Twilight Show here on Teachers Talk Radio.
1:26
I've been looking forward to this one guys because it gives me an opportunity
1:30
to catch up with a former colleague and someone who I admired.
1:34
Yannick is with me as usual as my co-host and we're with you for the next hour
1:40
guys and we're just going to be getting into a couple of juicy topics and things
1:45
that can be a little bit divisive and controversial.
1:48
We don't like to be deliberately divisive and controversial but it is interesting to provoke debate.
1:56
If you're watching this thank you and welcome. Obviously if you're an educator
2:00
or somebody with a vested interest in education, a parent, a governor,
2:06
a teacher, a consultant or whatever your role is, welcome and I hope there's
2:13
something for you that you can take away this evening.
2:16
So there's no particular script this evening, it's just three gentlemen talking
2:23
about their experience in education.
2:25
I'm going to introduce our guests
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as I've mentioned Jono Jonathan Sands
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is our guest today head teacher and former
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colleague of mine and yeah with what's going to be interesting because Jono's
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strength as far as I can remember working with Jono was this sort of people-centered
2:50
approach I quite liked your people-centred approach,
2:53
Jono, and how you used to think about the best way and the best balance when
2:58
it comes to managing students.
3:01
Obviously, those management skills extend beyond that as well.
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And, yeah, I don't know which is easier to manage.
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Maybe we won't go there tonight, but we'll see what comes up.
3:13
So it's just one of those things, guys. We're just going to be talking about our opinions.
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And I just want to thank Jono very much for coming on I know that you're a head
3:23
teacher and it goes without saying that you have a packed calendar but I've
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really looked forward to this one because I know you know knowing,
3:30
what I know about yourself you will have some really interesting
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things to bring to this topic so what
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we're getting into guys just going to give a little sort of intro about
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what we're getting into I mean you might well have already seen hopefully
3:43
the things that I've put out on socials and
3:46
the guest card and everything that's on there so
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there's two sort of main things I want to get
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into really and the first one which we're going
3:54
to start to touch on a minute in a minute is this
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well binaries was the main sort of thrust but
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the first one was this idea and it's a debate that
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will go on and on and on the best way to manage
4:07
students if that's if that word
4:10
is even allowed language can be a bit of an issue when you're talking about
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these things when you're on x and i do spend a bit probably a bit too long on
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x if i'm honest but it can generate some interesting things i mean through x
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i met yannick i met tom rogers i met the ttr guys.
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And we started doing and when i started doing this a year ago and it's just
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interesting to get into these things i know that some people are a little bit
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worried about saying the wrong thing,
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but i just want to sort of say to people if you would like to come
4:43
on to speak and give your opinions you're
4:47
more than welcome if you are watching this
4:50
now and you would like to comment there is a comment function so
4:53
whether you're watching this on linkedin or facebook or
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youtube or x we're across those
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four platforms live and even after the
5:02
event you can find me on socials if you'd like to sort of pick up the thread
5:07
of what we're saying put your opinion across but we can if you'd like to comment
5:11
live that you and you're watching this there'll be a comment box down somewhere
5:15
underneath the screen we're watching this you can put a comment in i can bring
5:18
that comment up on the screen and we can maybe address that live.
5:22
So anyway, I'm going to be speaking
5:24
to Jono in just a minute because I'm interested to learn a bit about,
5:28
what Jono does at his school because I know something that you described as
5:33
a reward over sanction, I believe, Jono.
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So again, thank you so much for coming on.
5:40
Do you think that will upset quite a few people rewards over sanctions?
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Some people might be upset by that.
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Well, it seems to me that whichever direction you go in,
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some people are going to be a little bit upset by
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that and obviously yeah right yeah it will
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i don't know i i wouldn't like to think that
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we up upset people but you never really know
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so what's your
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feeling Jono then in terms of the fact that
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we have this balance to strike between
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well what some people might call punitive rules
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and a more like restorative or
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therapeutic sort of approach and understanding students where
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they're coming from particularly set needs and so on yeah so
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where do you think we should sit
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sort of on that schools should sit on that continuum yeah
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i think it's a really good question firstly just thank you for having me on
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it's a privilege to catch up with you again and to just talk about you know
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something that's actually quite dear to me i think if i if you were to ask me
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that question maybe in the sort first 12 years of my.
6:50
My career, I would probably sit somewhere quite centrally in that debate.
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I would say actually there are things that should be sanctioned and there are
7:00
things that maybe shouldn't be, and we should look at other approaches.
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My own school went through lots of different approaches for behaviour and restorative
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justice came in when it was all the rage and we did our circle time and all
7:17
of the other things that come along with that.
7:20
But I think probably since becoming
7:24
a head teacher, I think the key thing always is context, isn't it?
7:28
It's the context of your school and what your school needs at that particular
7:32
moment. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be forever.
7:36
You know, it's what's right now in order to achieve what we need to achieve
7:43
with the cohorts that we've got.
7:45
And I think in my current setting, you know, I sort of picked up a school that
7:52
had maybe been through quite a few different, you know.
7:57
Methods, structures, and behavior that perhaps hadn't been particularly successful.
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And I think they were more along the lines of zero tolerance.
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And I think the school that I inherited, the whole community,
8:10
you just were not bought into that, didn't understand it, and were quite against it.
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And you've got to really, as a leadership team, you've got to look at that and
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think, how are we going to work together?
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What is it? What is that that's going to shift it.
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And for us, it was that reward over sanction policy.
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It's quite a brave move, I think, to be fair.
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And just to explain what that might be, you know, because I think it might baffle
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some people, but reward over sanction for us means that we have a house system,
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just like every other school, I'm sure,
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where they collect house points, reward points.
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But rather than sanction the
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things such as if a student doesn't
8:59
bring their PE kit we don't give them a
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detention if they do bring their
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PE kit we give them house points if they
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haven't done their homework we don't give them a detention but
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if they have done their homework we give them reward points and what
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this is really is positive reinforcement it's saying
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we want to reward the students that
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do the right things every single day and we
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want to center the majority of our
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attention and that's really hard on those kids and we want to put so much attention
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on those kids that other kids want to do the same thing because they see how
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much teacher attention they're getting you know and positive attention as well
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but to have a successful system like that you need to.
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Good they've got
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to be good it's in can you can you sustain
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that kind i've i've worked in schools where the
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rewards were just silly we were talking
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about mp3 players and all
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all that kind of things is that what you're talking about no we
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don't first of all we have a progressive approach so
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obviously the year seven rewards are
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I would say much lower cost than the
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rewards in year 10 and year 11 and
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what we do is we sort of build up that as we go through
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so it's never the same thing as they go through the
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year groups but and Tony will know this because I did try
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and do something very similar with him but bronze silver
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gold platinum and then diamond in
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terms of the number of points so it's 1500
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for a bronze it's 5000 for diamond and at
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each point so diamond in year seven eight
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nine and ten is the reward trip so if
10:51
they get that they get to go at the end of the
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year and we will pay for that trip but leading
10:57
up to that obviously in year seven they're motivated for something
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as simple as a badge you know and and want
11:04
to get their bronze silver gold when we start to sort of get into year.
11:06
Eight we're offering sweet boxes pizza parties
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queue jumps when we sort of get into year nine and year 10 we're starting to
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sort of head into sort of vouchers the biggest voucher we give is in year 10
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and that's for a platinum award when that's a 20 pound voucher now when we get
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to year 11 and this is the most interesting one And again,
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this is going to split your listeners down the middle, I'm sure, and parents.
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But year 11s need to get gold to go to prom.
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So they need 3 000 points but if they
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get platinum then they get a vip
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treatment at prom and if
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they get a diamond we will pay for their ticket to go
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to prom and for a community like
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ours and we we have quite a high level of disadvantage that
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that is real reward and it is sustainable it
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is sustainable because we're not just giving these points out willy-nilly they
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they have to work for them and they really do and
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again we're able to use this system because
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the students are so bought into the system we're able
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to use it strategically as well so if we
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notice let's say that later the lessons is
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starting to pick up we can do reward weeks where
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we say if you're on time for all your lessons this week
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you'll get bonus points you know if we
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are doing anything particular that we think
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actually we really want to engage with it we will incentivize it
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through giving sort of bonuses for those things so
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again it's a real strategic tool that
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has kind of helped and and i guess the proof's in
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the pudding right so we've reduced suspensions by 85 percent amazing we yeah
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and it's significant it's significant and you know we are talking at our highest
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sanction for sort of what you would call your everyday behaviors is a half an
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hour at after school detention.
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Now, that's it. Now, obviously, we have a reflection room or an isolation room
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or whatever you want to call it.
13:12
But they are only really for those very high-level babies.
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And after-school detention, you know, you'll be lucky if you've got 12 kids in there.
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Wow. I mean, that's brilliant, everything you said there.
13:27
What sort of came to mind as you were talking there, Jono, was this idea,
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what came into my head, was the students who don't get rewarded for always doing
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the right thing every single day.
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And then the students who those kids
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have to see getting rewarded for doing
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something they should have been doing for one day yeah but
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the rest of the term they've been disrupted lessons
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so it's yeah i mean the first
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thing that comes to me is sort of psychologically and also
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you're platforming the students for doing the
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right thing rather than platforming
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the ones who aren't doing the right thing in a more
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dare i say punitive way um so
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yeah i mean i think that's that's fantastic and as
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you said people might then say well
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that won't work in context a context b and it
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is context dependent i don't know for a fact john though
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that you've worked in contexts that are not straightforward as well
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let's say if we can say that much um but yeah so yeah that's really interesting
14:32
I think the the other thing to add there is that obviously this was all implemented
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pre new Ofsted framework and now with you know inclusion at the heart of that framework.
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This is very inclusive. And actually, punitive approaches are largely centred
14:54
on disadvantaged or double disadvantaged students because, you know,
14:59
say they haven't brought their PE kit.
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There could be reasons for that, you know, and they haven't done their homework.
15:05
There could be reasons for that.
15:06
And equally, you know, we talk about this sense of belonging.
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I mean we've had Essex County in doing an
15:13
inclusion review just this this year
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and one of the things they said was that sense of belonging the kids are completely
15:21
bought into it and it is one of the things that keeps them coming into school
15:25
and feeling that sense of pride so again it you know we need to build those
15:31
positive relationships it is an inclusive policy and,
15:35
But it is a daring one as well. And I think there's lots of people that feel
15:39
that there's perhaps taking an element of control away. And it really isn't.
15:43
So it's quite interesting because obviously we don't hear enough of those stories, actually.
15:50
Do you think, so why can't everybody do what you're doing?
15:54
Because actually, I think deep down, that's what I would want.
16:00
And I've never seen it work. And I don't believe that it works.
16:05
Obviously, I'm wrong because you are someone who's doing it in your school.
16:08
Do you think everybody can do that?
16:11
I think so. I think there's a balance. Don't get me wrong.
16:14
It's not that we are a zero-sanctioned school. So we still have the lesson behaviors
16:20
of verbal warning, word outside, relocation if it goes wrong.
16:26
And they get behavior points for that.
16:29
Now, again, we use behavior points in a strategic way.
16:34
So you know if you have a number of behavior points and you want to go on our
16:40
ski trip you won't be going yeah and so we we build that as part of and parcel of what we do so it is.
16:48
The thing that we always talk about in school is currency the
16:51
currency of a reward point the currency of a
16:54
behavior point if you get the currency right and
16:58
the balance right then that's how it can work
17:01
in any school but the currency will be
17:04
different the currency will be different in my school as it is to
17:07
yours and it's for the leadership team to
17:10
find that that tipping point that break-even point of where each of those need
17:16
to sit in order to achieve what you need to achieve with your community so you
17:20
said um it's quite interesting so before you became the head of that school
17:24
did you did you have an idea of what you were going to do and did it change Thank you.
17:30
Do you know what? I certainly didn't join this school with a view of implementing this policy.
17:36
But I think as soon as I hit the ground running and I started to understand
17:41
and to listen to our students,
17:43
to listen to our parents, to listen to the local community, it was clear that
17:48
that sort of zero tolerance approach was never going to work.
17:53
Now obviously you could say well you've gone from hard right to hard left.
17:59
And there may be some rebalancing to do at some point but
18:02
at this stage I've got no evidence to suggest that we
18:04
will need to do that because we've got
18:07
happy students we've got improved behaviors we've got
18:10
improved outcomes we've got improved attendance our PPG
18:13
attendance has improved beyond belief this
18:16
year our send attendance is the best it's been since
18:20
COVID so something is
18:23
is right and something's happening for those kids and
18:26
i say is it just i don't think it'd just be this school you
18:30
know as i say it could be any school but i
18:34
don't want to preempt but one of your listeners has
18:37
asked logistically how can it be recorded and monitored we record it on edulink
18:43
edulink is a platform that links to we have arbor here but it does link to sims
18:49
And it's very easy to upload and put on points for your classes,
18:54
but it's a one-stop shop.
18:56
I don't want to advertise it on here, obviously, because I'm not on commission,
18:59
but it certainly works for us.
19:01
It's not burdensome for staff at all to put them on. It's very quick and can
19:05
be done with their register.
19:07
Okay, thank you for that, Paul. And yeah, thanks for picking that up, actually.
19:11
Yeah, that saved me a job there, Jono. But yeah, I suppose, yeah,
19:15
the issue can be if there's a lot of students to put on.
19:19
But at the end of the day, I am really feeling for those students who every
19:24
day are doing the right thing and unnecessarily getting those rewards.
19:27
So I just want to mention before we go on, there's another couple of comments on there.
19:32
Somebody's not too happy with
19:34
the word inclusion there. So we'll maybe look at that one in a minute.
19:37
And inclusion is very much part of the focus
19:40
for the new off-step frameworks i think and there's
19:43
been stuff recently in the press about that as well
19:46
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20:59
So, yeah, there was a few things that I was going to mention.
21:02
Again, yeah, it's just trying to sort of get.
21:06
My thoughts together on what actually I want to ask, because time goes so quickly on these shows.
21:11
You mentioned something that you touched on, which we might mention later,
21:14
Jono, if we get a chance, is you mentioned right wing, left wing.
21:17
And I want to pick up on that at some point, because there's a bit of a push
21:23
to suggest that rules in themselves are,
21:29
I don't know, I wouldn't want to say right wing, but somebody said to me,
21:34
centralised detention systems.
21:35
This is something i wanted to ask both of you but someone
21:40
actually said to me online and i'm not going to mention any names
21:43
at this stage but there's certain people who do who
21:46
i do interact with online and it's
21:49
not always people who i always agree with and i find that
21:51
can be useful if that person wants to engage in a
21:54
constructive way but someone said to me that they think centralized behavior
21:58
systems in themselves are behaviorist and
22:03
that centralized systems take away the opportunity for
22:07
restorative type conversations and
22:11
that kind of struck a bit of a chord with me because i've
22:14
been i think for for quite some time now i've worked in schools where behavior
22:19
has been moved centrally and there's a centralized system my feeling's always
22:24
been that that probably is the best way but the argument that people might make
22:29
is that takes away the opportunity and the ownership that.
22:33
And the relationship that that teacher might have with the students.
22:39
So I thought I might ask you that, Jono, and maybe see if Yannick,
22:42
see what you think as well. But what's your thoughts on that?
22:45
Is a centralised behaviour system the way to go, do you think?
22:51
I think, you know, before I had a teacher and still now I'm a music teacher.
22:57
So, you know, when detentions are not centralised and I'm teaching 400 kids
23:04
a fortnight and I've got to logistically organise,
23:09
However many detentions out of those 400 kids that haven't met expectations
23:13
in my classrooms during that week, it's very different to perhaps an English
23:18
teacher, a maths teacher, a science teacher that might have a vastly reduced number.
23:23
It also, I think, if you don't have central systems,
23:28
then you do disadvantage a number
23:31
of your colleagues that may be the ones
23:35
that are taking the lower sets the middle sets the
23:38
ones that may be taking a you know a bit of a
23:41
hit in the department you know in certain year groups
23:44
and their time is taken up and time is
23:47
precious right time is precious now the
23:50
argument here is is a detention effective without
23:54
the conversation that's really what we're saying is it
23:58
is a detention effective if you don't have
24:00
that restorative conversation with a member of staff now
24:04
for me I think there's
24:07
there's lots of different and very quick ways to solve
24:10
that I mean we do have a centralized half an hour detention after school we
24:14
do invite staff to come down and and make that have that conversation and lots
24:19
of them do take up that opportunity but if they're in a meeting or if they're
24:23
in a you know a CPD or if they're somewhere else that time is precious too.
24:28
So actually just a very quick conversation
24:31
on the door the next lesson to say look I know things
24:34
didn't go well last time but it's going to be better this time
24:37
this is what we're going to do I think you know often we
24:40
just need to kind of forgive and forget we've got to remember these are kids
24:44
and you know we know from our own children that they don't always make the best
24:51
decisions they're not the most considerate at times they are selfish by nature
24:55
and we sometimes forget that in this kind of.
25:00
I think there's a, there's a, I think among some staff, there is this need to win.
25:05
There is a need to win and we win by sanctioning heavily and making them feel
25:12
the weight of that poor decision that they made in my lesson,
25:15
which I'd spent so much time planning.
25:18
Whereas actually it doesn't mean that much to the kids and actually, you know,
25:23
it will go a much bigger way if you just kind of
25:26
caught up with them in the corridor and next break time and said
25:29
look i didn't want to send you out can we
25:32
try again i mean that
25:34
to me is all that's needed but again it's
25:38
just where you sit on that there must be a conversation
25:41
yeah and i think it's obviously that that's controversial in itself i did have
25:46
a little look at the restorative practice because one of the things i was aware
25:50
of is that it seems to be a thing more of a thing in scotland and I think the
25:56
truth of that is it's just something that maybe started or was done first in Scotland.
26:01
So some people will say Scotland is a mess because they're all doing restorative
26:05
practice, which I don't think is necessarily true, but I think it's something that maybe started off.
26:10
I just want to thank Barry because Barry's communicating with us and put a few
26:14
comments in and some of them, yeah, he's got some quite clear sort of opinions.
26:21
So thank you, Barry. That is what it's all about.
26:24
Now, one of the ones that I wanted to just bring up that Barry's put in was
26:28
this idea of left and right.
26:31
It's not left and right to me. Centralized is not behaviorist.
26:35
I mean, yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I mean, this idea of labeling things
26:39
can be counterproductive as well, actually.
26:42
I think just the general labels that we give things that then become either good or bad.
26:48
And then the discourse, you know. I agree, Tony.
26:51
I think people label things to be able to criticize, it's easier if you label
26:56
something, then you can criticize it, it works your way, which you're right,
27:00
you need a system, whatever you call it, you need a system that works.
27:03
I agree, centralized system just does make sense, something that makes sense for everybody.
27:11
I mean, I particularly like the way, you know, a few things that you've said,
27:16
which is quite refreshing, really, because, you know, I kind of consider myself,
27:20
I'm actually feeling really bad listening to you because I tend to be quite
27:26
strict and quite on that line.
27:30
So, you know, the things like staff need to win. I do think you're right.
27:37
I think what you're doing though does does
27:42
need must require quite some
27:45
work in terms of communication because you're right you need
27:48
to change your mindset i absolutely love the
27:51
way what you're saying in your school your inclusion in your
27:54
school basically your school is inclusive and
27:56
if students don't want to be included they really
28:00
have to make an effort to opt out of that i really love
28:03
the idea where you flip things around actually you know what if you
28:06
don't really want to be part of this that's gonna
28:10
take some effort from you and of course you know
28:13
the the second thing rewards and i mean i was i was asking you on the you know
28:17
like is it sustainable but actually i you know i know that kids always love
28:24
rewards and you're right a reward is a stamp i got stamps and kids always ask
28:29
me for a stamp that goes up to year 11 stickers so.
28:34
You know the only thing that people could
28:37
challenge you and I'm going to ask that challenging question
28:40
why are you rewarding kids for things that really are expected because that's
28:46
not how life works I'm not rewarded for being a good citizen so why are we doing
28:51
that in school why are you why have you decided to do this I guess it's that I think,
28:58
Your counter-argument there is basically that we have certain expectations of
29:03
students when they come into school and they should just do them. Yeah.
29:08
And the problem then falls is if they don't do them, what do we do?
29:14
Yeah. And that's it, isn't it? And I agree with you to some extent,
29:20
but then if we're not going to spend time actually teaching the students why
29:26
we're doing certain things and what's the purpose, we're just going to expect it.
29:31
I mean, you must know, like from all of the one plans that are probably that
29:36
you have for each of your classes, there is not there's not one of them that
29:41
says, don't worry, they will just meet your expectations.
29:47
Is that it's not none of them say that what they'll say is you need to explicitly state,
29:54
what it is you need them to do and then
29:57
re-explain it and then come back and check on them
30:00
in five minutes time to make sure that they they still understand it so again
30:04
you're you're basically saying yes there look there probably are 70 70 percent
30:11
of kids that will come in and just meet expectations regardless of what policy
30:15
you put in place but what you've got to decide,
30:19
in your community in your context is how do I want to shift the 30 percent.
30:25
Do I want to do it through positive reinforcement or do I want to do it through
30:30
sanctioning or do I want a bit of both?
30:34
And obviously you need to lay that out from the beginning, don't you? Yeah, sorry, Yannick.
30:41
You're incredibly right. And I think, you know, you said how you shift the 30%.
30:44
Actually, it's probably a lot less than that. Wouldn't you agree?
30:48
We're probably talking about 15%. And I think there again, it's a very important
30:53
point. I think it's our human nature or teacher nature to focus on punishing
30:59
those, actually, rather than... I love that.
31:03
And yeah, I really like hearing that because it's not something that's in my
31:10
blood, if you know what I mean. So that's quite interesting.
31:15
I don't think it's many people's blood. And I think, you know,
31:18
those that have been in education for longer than five minutes have probably
31:22
been through so many alliterations of varying different policies that,
31:26
you know, we've probably kept the best bits of what we think is right.
31:30
And we implement that, you know, in what we would deem to be an experienced,
31:35
as an experienced practitioner.
31:38
But I think that on a friendly level of just in the classroom is fine.
31:43
But what we're talking really here is about whole school approaches.
31:46
And you know yes it does
31:49
take a little bit of staff buy-in it does take training it
31:52
does take you know re-educating staff
31:55
on some times where they perhaps have tried to win in a situation and you've
32:01
had to sort of take it back with them and say look this is why we have this
32:04
approach you've tried to win with this student let me just tell you a bit about
32:09
what's going on at home with that student right now do you still want to win?
32:14
Or you've already won, as far as I'm concerned.
32:18
You are a middle-class teacher earning a decent salary. That's controversial as well.
32:27
You know, you've won. You've already won.
32:31
What I really like as well, what you said that I really like,
32:35
and I think that's maybe perhaps some of the people who tend to be on the rest of the team,
32:41
you do accept actually that they are
32:43
kids and they don't always make the right decision and they don't
32:46
always have the best intention and i think that is also very important to recognize
32:50
because i think some people like tony you will agree with me some people think
32:54
the kids can never make any they they always get things right so i can't i mean
32:59
i think that's the balance that you have which is quite interesting is one recognizing
33:03
actually that they are kids and ask as kids they
33:06
do make bad decisions.
33:08
And I just want to... You are meeting the needs actually as kids that they're
33:19
not going to be punished, but they're going to be encouraged to... To do the right thing.
33:23
To obtain, yes, to do the right thing. So that's quite refreshing I think.
33:28
Refreshing. I think what I like about... I'm loving how much this is affecting you, Yannick.
33:35
But it is yeah what i
33:38
think trying to get inside a student's head is they're
33:42
used to getting told off but i don't i think sometimes they do
33:45
genuinely not always know why and i find little things like if you give a student
33:51
a warning or whenever it is a c1 or whatever it is if you just just add or you
33:57
say c1 is he talking you're talking over me or something like that and you've
34:01
just given a little bit of context.
34:03
Because I think what sometimes is missing is students just think,
34:07
oh, we're teachers, we tell them off.
34:08
They don't really fully understand why. I'm not saying they need to understand
34:11
why, because they may not have the capacity to fully comprehend certain rules.
34:17
But there is certainly something to be said for them having a little bit of
34:22
context to what we're trying to achieve and seeing the bigger picture of that.
34:26
And I don't know if students always have that. the other thing i wanted to ask
34:30
though uh jonno was just a bit of devil's advocate,
34:34
do any parents come to you and say if my
34:37
son or daughter's not getting on this reward trip that's
34:41
not inclusive or what if my son or
34:44
daughter has a particular need that might make it more difficult for
34:47
them to get to the standard of going on that
34:50
trip what would you sort of do or say in a
34:53
situation like that i mean
34:56
that is headship what you've
34:59
just described there's always you know
35:02
but essentially what you're saying is can you
35:05
align a community of thousands of parents
35:08
to accept every decision that you make as gospel that's an impossible task there
35:17
are always going to be people within community that don't fully align but i
35:21
think one of the things that we do really well is we pre-communicate.
35:28
What we are and what we do so if you come to
35:31
my open evening i invite you all to
35:34
my open evening in september you will hear
35:37
the same message that i've delivered for the
35:40
last two years it will be the same powerpoint i
35:44
might change my picture because i probably look a bit older now but
35:47
the you know it will it will basically say this
35:50
is what we are and this is what we do and if that is
35:53
going to fit with you and align with you come please come
35:56
and be part of it because we want you join a longer family i think
36:00
it's where you have this chop and
36:03
change and i think you know i mean we've spent
36:06
a lot on a time on sanctions and
36:09
rewards and i know tony you wanted to discuss literally
36:12
the whole of education in this hour but the that i
36:17
think the point here and the point i would like to make about binaries
36:20
altogether is you know where do
36:23
they come from and i've been really thinking about
36:26
this since you invited me on you know where why
36:30
do binaries exist why do we have to go that
36:33
side or that side why is it not okay to be in the center and my answer is and
36:41
I think it all comes down to that a word it's accountability and the accountability
36:48
pressures that are put on results.
36:52
The accountability pressures that are put on KPIs, the accountability pressures
36:58
that are put on you as an individual.
37:02
Let's say, Tony, I appoint you as my new assistant head of teaching and learning.
37:07
I don't have a vacancy. But if I did, you'd come in and you are going to want
37:14
to make impact. How do you make impact?
37:18
How do you show impact immediately?
37:20
Well, you go in the complete opposite direction of what's just happened.
37:25
In school, you change things up, you freshen it up, and it looks really good
37:30
for the next couple of years.
37:32
Because all of a sudden, you know, you've brought in this direct instruction,
37:37
we're all doing it in class, we're all doing as we're told, you're coming around
37:40
and monitoring it, you've done all of your, you know, quality assurance to make
37:45
sure that we're doing it, you've proved that.
37:48
You know, rightly so, I'm paying you to do a good job, well done.
37:53
You would hope that outcomes follow but that's
37:58
largely what I for me why we end up with these binaries
38:01
we have I would say as a profession
38:04
we are quite insecure about one
38:08
our own beliefs two about what everyone thinks
38:12
others are thinking and three
38:15
what perhaps the community and the school need we're
38:18
very insecure about these things and actually it's much
38:22
better to go do you know what we're going down this way because I've
38:25
read this book it's research informed therefore this
38:28
is why we're all doing it this is how I'm going
38:31
to prove impact and it's going to give that sense of
38:34
safety of me that I am making impact in this school and
38:38
I think that's largely where these binaries do come from I think when you're
38:42
safe in your skin when you're safe in a in a supportive SLT structure perhaps
38:47
with a supportive trust who give you the autonomy that you need in a school
38:52
I think you can start to shift these around towards centre.
38:58
And back out again, depending on what's needed within the school context.
39:02
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, everything you've said there,
39:06
basically, is a pretty good summary in a nutshell of what goes on on social media.
39:12
And you can understand headteachers. I've never done the job,
39:16
Jono. I'm pretty sure I probably never will, if I'm honest.
39:20
But I don't know what it's like. I think I put a comment.
39:23
I was reaching the other day for what it might be like, and I think I'd said
39:26
something like, it's a job where,
39:28
everyone else always knows better than you do so yeah
39:32
everyone who's never done it wants to tell you how to do
39:34
it it's basically a bit I suppose it's a bit like a football fan criticizing
39:38
a football manager but I mean I'm just while I I just want to mention our sponsors
39:42
again and while I'm doing that I'm just going to put this comment on the screen
39:45
and then we might start to talk a little bit about DI and direct instruction
39:49
discovery and then things like that as well because obviously, yeah,
39:54
we've got 20 minutes to go. We can obviously go a little bit over if we need to.
39:58
I just want to mention that AQA sponsor our show.
40:02
They're looking for teachers like you to become examiners this summer.
40:05
You'll build your CPD, strengthen your understanding of the Marks Game,
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gain fresh insights to enhance your teaching.
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So if you want to get involved in being an examiner with AQA,
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it doesn't matter if you're a new teacher or if you had years of experience,
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because full training is given, so you can go to aqa.org.
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Dot uk slash apply and you can look into becoming
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an examiner with aqa this summer
40:39
the other one i want to mention is hashette
40:42
learning because this show is up to you in partnership with these publishers
40:46
but professional development books and resources so this is hashette learning
40:50
if you'd like to get involved and look at some books and do some leveling up
40:55
for your professional development but when you do take jono's advice and don't
40:58
just implement everything you read make a contextual.
41:03
Decision which is very good advice i would say but
41:06
if you'd like to have a look into hash at learning there's
41:09
some great stuff in there's several books i have had a
41:12
look at myself in there and that's hash
41:15
at learning.com and you can have a look at
41:17
the titles that they've got there so i'll just obviously thank
41:21
you paula who's commented from linkedin
41:24
behavior management sometimes focus on what not to do if
41:27
we focus on being explicit about what we want to see
41:30
from our students and explain our expectations are
41:33
not fully met we can create the condition for students to get
41:35
it right i mean do we yeah maybe we don't narrate our
41:39
expectations and the reasons for those expectations enough
41:43
perhaps so yeah so
41:46
if we just we've got because we're running
41:49
a bit short time we did touch on this idea of
41:52
what we got 17 minutes we did
41:55
touch on this idea of progs and trads i don't really
41:58
know if i want to go there i don't think i'm quite ready to go there yet but
42:02
direct instruction i've wanted to talk about this for quite some time because
42:07
i follow some big names on twitter i'm not going to mention any names at this
42:11
point in time but direct instruction or explicit instruction i'm not really
42:16
sure what the correct name is,
42:18
is becoming very popular some people are sort of saying it's the only way to
42:24
teach if you're not doing it, you're wasting all the students' time.
42:29
And so on discovery learning and student-led
42:32
learning is a complete waste of time again i think it
42:35
goes back to what you touched on already jonah where
42:38
you said about things going in cycles and
42:41
opposites and people wanting to make impact and therefore wanting
42:44
to do the opposite of what's happened before because i
42:47
remember a time when people were saying you need to make lessons as student-led
42:51
as you possibly can and there's too much teacher input too much teacher speak
42:56
like some of you just go round and round and round as we all know but and and
43:01
i suppose the other thing is
43:02
if you get teachers in a room and you sit them down and you talk to them,
43:06
you're generally not that far off a consensus are
43:09
you that's the other thing i don't know whether people exaggerate for
43:12
effect but what are we thinking so so
43:15
what's your thoughts jonah are you a fan of direct instruction and i suppose
43:21
rose and rose and shine's principles and all the other things that go with that
43:24
or do you believe there's still a place for discovery learning what's your your
43:29
overarching feelings on that i'm a fan of teacher autonomy,
43:36
yes i like it that's it in a nutshell yeah.
43:43
Look again i'll come back to my own background i'm a music teacher now there
43:48
are elements where I can use direct instruction to teach music,
43:54
of course I can, you know,
43:57
It's right or wrong whether that note is an E or not. It's right or wrong whether
44:01
that note is a minim or not.
44:03
Okay, and I can teach that information explicitly.
44:06
I can use Boson Science Principles till I'm blue in the face,
44:11
bringing it back week after week, month after month, and making sure that it's
44:15
fully embedded. Of course I can.
44:17
But let's not forget that there is an element of my course that is composition,
44:23
which is basically you've got to create your own piece of music.
44:27
Now, if I use direct instruction, I'll be breaching JCQ guidelines because I
44:34
can't tell them what to write.
44:35
I can't tell them what to compose. I can tell them how, and I can show them
44:40
how, but that's going to be different and unique for everyone. And if I'm too direct...
44:46
Then all of my compositions are going to sound the same. And then I'm also going
44:50
to get a phone call from the examiner to say, why all your coursework sounds very similar?
44:55
And I think, you know, you've touched on the fact that actually within science,
44:58
there are elements where there should be some form of discovery.
45:02
Because I don't know about you, but I love discovering things and I love doing
45:07
it myself. And I don't want, with respect, some bloke in a lab coat telling me all the answers.
45:16
You know give me something like give
45:19
me something to do myself and um i think
45:22
the the analogy i'll probably use is that
45:25
of um a marathon my i'm not a runner but my uh my wife is and she's done a couple
45:30
of marathons now and it's been like a learning curve just to watch what it takes
45:35
because education is always talked about as a marathon right it's not it's not
45:39
sprints a marathon And we talk about that in terms of examinations, year 11,
45:44
you know, we've got to make sure that, you know, we're preparing as if we're
45:48
preparing for a marathon.
45:49
You can't just run a marathon without doing the preparation.
45:52
And we use it all the time and we use the synology. But I think it's important
45:55
in this context is when we're learning, we can't always, every single hour, do a long run.
46:03
And we've got to take those, you know,
46:07
I hate to say it, rest days, or those walk-run days, or those days where actually
46:13
we need a bit of recovery, we need a bit of time, we need to go a little bit
46:17
deeper into actually looking after ourselves and our physique. We...
46:23
We can't always go gung-ho. And actually, it's in those moments.
46:29
Where we can then start to inspire and when we can start to get that sort of
46:35
passion for learning that we all say that we are going to give our kids a passion
46:40
for learning, but then have no time to do it.
46:43
And I think that's really what I... So I come back to my original point.
46:48
I'm for teacher autonomy. me I don't want every
46:52
single lesson in my school to look and sound
46:54
the same as every other hour how boring how
46:58
boring and do you think maybe just trying to pick up on read between the lines
47:03
of what you're saying there Jono do you think maybe when we've started to trust
47:08
teachers less you know we we pay teachers to stand in a room with however many
47:13
students 25 30 we trust them we've.
47:17
Appointed them are we too prescriptive
47:21
is what you're saying that is is the trust and and
47:25
the expectations of being professional not there to
47:28
some extent and do you think that's a
47:31
bit of an issue again it comes down to
47:34
how secure you feel as
47:36
a senior leadership team and as a staffing body isn't it
47:40
that's that's really what it is you know if you're
47:43
if you're coming in if you're coming into work
47:46
and you want to try something new
47:49
with your classes and you don't feel that it's a safe environment to
47:52
do it then you're not going to do it if you
47:55
think there's going to be an observer who comes in and wants to see and
47:58
make sure that you know at least every 10 minutes there's
48:01
some kind of recall activity and I've got to get on it
48:04
you know I know that they're really interested in what I've
48:07
just said but I've got to do some recall quick because they've just walked in
48:10
you know you it comes down to to that no and again it's about that slt member
48:19
that senior leadership team you know that trust team whoever it is you know
48:24
they're trying to justify their wages.
48:28
And so they need to make sure that they're having their impact and this is where
48:32
sometimes what's going on in the classroom and what perhaps career ambition
48:37
comes in just doesn't align,
48:41
um and it you know it's a i'm trying to you know rapidly improve a school and
48:47
this is how i want to do it and i'm i'm going to bulldoze every good aspect
48:51
of school because i'm just going to be dictating what everyone should do in
48:55
order for me to meet those benchmarks which means that I can get that promotion,
48:59
move on, and then not have to deal with consequences in three years' time.
49:05
I'm over-egging it. But you get the idea. It's that, you know,
49:09
we all have bad lessons. Have you had a bad lesson today?
49:14
I definitely have. Yeah, I have. I've taught today.
49:20
You teach, Jonathan. Yeah, I do teach. I'm teaching business studies at the
49:25
moment, GCSE, and music still.
49:28
But I do think it's important for teachers to teach, but that's a different conversation.
49:32
But the, the, I think the thing for me is that, you know, it's okay for me as
49:38
a head teacher on, you know, this radio station to say I've taught today and
49:43
it wasn't a great lesson.
49:46
And I don't think that that means that we're not having the right impact with our students.
49:53
Am I having an impact? Yes, of course I am. Can I just say that?
49:55
It's a much longer phase of impact, isn't it?
49:59
I just want to mention about, sorry, it's something I'll ask you in a minute
50:03
what you think on the debate of DI and Discovery Act.
50:07
But, yeah, what else was I going to say? Yeah, I don't, I hope you don't mind
50:12
me saying, Jono, But I don't find you like a lot of SLTs and leaders that I've known.
50:18
And it's quite in a very refreshing way in that I think there is, it's showing weakness.
50:26
There's a fear. And I think it probably does come from fear.
50:29
And I do understand the fear, what's riding on this.
50:33
The stakes are so high, aren't they? That you've got to be seen to always be right.
50:38
That you've got to be seen to always be in control.
50:42
And you've got some obviously some people are ambitious and they know the well
50:49
results speak for themselves or whatever and what you're saying is that's not
50:54
really compatible always,
50:56
with running a sort of I don't know with having a happy ship I suppose really
51:02
so it's an interesting one because I've known all sorts of different head teachers
51:06
and obviously everyone brings their own style in a different way.
51:10
So what are you thinking sort of Yannick along those lines of discovery versus DI?
51:17
I mean obviously we've said I've said loads of times before and I think,
51:22
the teach to the bell the do now the the sort of relentlessness of it all you you're right.
51:30
It's that expectation that in a 60 minute lesson in a well-known school there's
51:38
59 minutes of learning not a single minute is wasted and we are obviously very
51:45
pressurized of teaching,
51:47
delivering a curriculum as well so i've i've
51:50
got to be careful and actually this year
51:53
was the first year actually i did something that i was a bit worried out of
51:57
out of my curriculum i thought i'm going to do a poem which i used to like when
52:00
i was a teacher because i don't i don't know about you but when i was at school
52:04
i had teachers with very different styles i had teachers who because they liked
52:09
something they decided to be in class and that's that's how you got a passion for a subjects.
52:13
That's the kind of stuff I remember. Oh yeah, I did this with that teacher.
52:17
But now it's all about consistency as well.
52:20
I mean, to answer your question, yeah, obviously I'm a fan of direct instruction. No surprise there. And.
52:27
But you plan your lesson. So when you say discovery, well, you know what the
52:31
student, you know, there's the theory that actually, well, actually they don't
52:37
need to discover anything because you teach them.
52:39
So I agree with what you've said again. You're right.
52:41
You want to feel that you've discovered something as a student.
52:44
Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it? That's why you do experiments in science.
52:48
But they're not going to discover anything because you know the result.
52:53
However, your lesson is planned in such a way that, I mean, when I teach friends,
52:58
sometimes, you know, look at patterns. What do you see?
53:00
And they come up with what you want them to discover. That's really what it
53:05
is. And, yeah, you should do some of that, of course.
53:08
They're not going to discover anything. But you're right that if they always
53:13
talked up, well, there's not much fun in that as well, is there?
53:18
Well, I don't think adults, if you went for CPD and then there was five solid
53:23
hours where not one minute,
53:25
they were allowed to have a brain break and have a conversation and
53:28
have a coffee or it's like but do
53:31
you know i think we forget we we don't see things through
53:34
the eyes of the students enough i don't think one good
53:37
i mean that was a one big piece of advice my first head of
53:40
department gave me because he did yeah he he
53:43
supported me in so many different ways my first head of department but
53:46
one of the things that he always used to say what you know was exactly
53:50
that see plan a lesson through the eyes
53:53
of the students try and see it from their point of view and i
53:56
just i don't know because we're being pulled in
53:59
so many different directions that i
54:01
don't think we always do that very well and obviously
54:04
yeah tom did come in i think you'd probably i think
54:07
you've already addressed that earlier about the importance of head teachers
54:11
teaching i mean whether it's possible for you know you to if you're a head teacher
54:18
that doesn't teach whether that has any implications i'm not really sure i think
54:23
it's in the title isn't it head teacher,
54:25
And I think if you're going to have policies that directly impact a class teacher,
54:32
then you need to live them and breathe them and model them.
54:36
I don't mean you need to have many, many hours on your timetable,
54:39
but I think you need at least to have a go.
54:43
Well, respect for that as well. You know, another thing I must say, absolutely, you know,
54:50
and even when I worked at your college,
54:54
which was a very long time ago, the principal then he was the biggest place
54:58
i've ever seen and she did manage to teach a couple of hours music and other
55:03
really and you know that that that to me i mean i think and to staff does mean
55:08
a lot actually because you you are in their shoes you're you're you're one of us.
55:15
That that's very important you're something else but you're also
55:18
i mean you know i think that fits in totally with
55:21
your with your inclusion so that even that
55:24
i'm starting to be really annoyed at that actually that's
55:27
you know that's that that really that is really well it's kind of challenges
55:31
me to be to be perfectly honest so it's nice and that that fits in with your
55:37
inclusion so even even in that kind of even in your staff you you are you are
55:44
making yourself a member of staff,
55:47
when you're also a headteacher and at staff, we obviously, we see this,
55:54
you know, it's like nobody can ever say anything, but well, he doesn't understand.
55:57
He doesn't know what he's like. Well, of course, of course you do.
56:00
So that cuts that, you know, short, you know?
56:05
Yeah. Thank you to anyone who's put comments in.
56:09
Carl, I can't read the last part of that, but it looks like I can see a Carl in there.
56:14
So thank you, Carl, for that. The heads who teach is, I mean,
56:19
I don't know what the statistics say in terms of heads who still teach and so on.
56:24
Yeah, well. Yeah, covering lessons, that's great as well. If you don't teach,
56:28
but actually you go in there and the kid's face, oh, oh, God.
56:34
Oh, no, right. Yeah, that I think does make a big difference.
56:40
When the students see you as well, you're not only, you're right,
56:43
not making policies, but just, yeah.
56:46
Being visible and so on which is
56:49
why i've i've thought recently about well the learning
56:52
walks thing i'm going a little bit off the topic and i think you know
56:55
we might have to do another show at some point on this
56:59
but support walks over learning walks this
57:01
is something this is a little thing that has been in
57:04
the back of my mind don't call it a learning walk because if
57:07
you call it a learning walk people are already on the back foot and
57:10
they're thinking well what are you looking for what you're expecting and what
57:13
you're checking up on if you call it a support walk can i
57:16
help you with anything is there any and then you you
57:19
know you can do maybe a little bit of undercover note a couple of things that
57:22
are going on or whatever but it's just sometimes with anything it's just the
57:26
implementation and the intent and the buy-in perhaps i mean i'm i'm rambling
57:32
on like i know what i'm talking about now but it's which is why it's excellent
57:37
i mean thank you so much again Jono for coming on.
57:39
We are reaching the end of the hour. I know you've got to go and do some stuff with your PTA.
57:45
So, yeah, it just makes it all the better that you've actually given up your hour for us.
57:52
And I think, you know, certainly you've made an impression on Yannick.
57:55
And I'm pretty sure that, I mean, a lot of what you said, I know that I've always
57:59
admired for the short time we worked together, your people-centred approach.
58:04
And, yeah, it's really refreshing.
58:07
So, yeah, it's really good to see you again, Jono.
58:11
We didn't really get very deep into the into the
58:14
stuff that the really controversial stuff unless
58:18
you guys either of you had any sort of comments on
58:20
that the trans and the progs i just want to mention that i
58:23
said to someone this probably answers my
58:26
own question if anything but i spoke to a young teacher at
58:29
our school or she or she she became
58:33
part of conversation i was having with another more mature
58:36
member of staff let's say about trans and
58:39
progs and she was like what does that mean i've not heard of that probably because
58:42
she's been too busy just doing her job and not um and not wasting time like
58:48
i do on social media and arguing with people who are never going to agree with
58:52
me anyway but the trad and the prog thing just a final sort of,
58:58
comment on that if you wouldn't mind jono do you think we have trads and progs
59:03
or do you think we just have teachers with different opinions.
59:07
Is that something you've heard of Trad and Pro? Yeah, of course.
59:11
You know, we've all read the articles, we've all read the Bump, we've all... I think...
59:19
We have, what's wonderful about our profession is that we have teachers that
59:26
have had multiple different experiences.
59:30
Some of them have had experiences in some of our roughest schools.
59:35
Some of them have had the joys of being in perhaps some of our top performing
59:40
schools where there are different challenges to that.
59:43
And each of them have been exposed to the different approaches that have been
59:48
sold to them in CPD programs for decades.
59:53
And so, yes, of course, there is an argument either way.
59:58
But again, I think one of the things that we're missing in this binary thing,
1:00:04
and perhaps to summarize it all, is that it's not necessarily about being central.
1:00:09
It's actually about being brave enough to accept that actually difference is
1:00:20
something really workable and difference of approach,
1:00:26
opinion is something to be celebrated and worked with and not ignored.
1:00:32
And almost trying to dispel anything that isn't necessarily seen as consistent.
1:00:40
I think consistency, the word consistency, the most overused word in education.
1:00:48
It's not about consistency. It's about being brave enough to say to a teacher, do you know what?
1:00:54
Just do your best for them and use the approach, use the wealth of knowledge
1:00:59
that you've got with those children and do your very best with it.
1:01:05
And equally, if someone's new to the profession, it's not necessarily about
1:01:10
either of those things because, as you say, they're told how to do stuff.
1:01:14
It's actually those that do have those wealth experiences are actually coming
1:01:18
to them and saying, look, I know you've been told to do it like this.
1:01:21
This is what we were trained to do. Come and see me do it in my class and see what you think.
1:01:27
And it's that sharing without any judgment that I think is one of the things that is missing.
1:01:36
And if we could just get that right, as a sector, we could thrive.
1:01:41
I tell you what, why don't we do a show on that in the future?
1:01:46
That's yeah i mean that's yeah that that's really
1:01:49
good yeah a device isn't it it's and
1:01:51
i think you know we don't watch each other's teaching i
1:01:55
think slt watch lots of lessons i always
1:01:58
think i learn more from watching a lesson than i
1:02:01
do teaching a lesson and having feedback on
1:02:04
the lesson that i've done i mean it may be just because i'm awkward and
1:02:07
i don't always listen to people and i'm bloody minded but um
1:02:10
yeah it's probably an element of that but yeah
1:02:13
it's been a really great show I think that's probably a
1:02:16
good sort of place to wrap it up I just want to thank once again
1:02:19
John Owen I hope you've enjoyed your debut on
1:02:22
the teachers talk radio and it's just honestly it's been
1:02:25
really interesting illuminating it's been nice to speak
1:02:29
to you again I do really hope thank you to read for reaching out and for joining
1:02:33
us and I really hope to see you again on a future show and yeah i think that's
1:02:39
a good place to leave it so from us everyone i'm gonna say to you have a very.