Latest / Think Twice Show / The Politics of Black Britain ft Eni Aluko

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The Politics of Black Britain ft Eni Aluko · Think Twice Show

0:00
When you lose, it's like Nigerian born.
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When you win, it's like, Oh yeah, she's one of us.
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There won't be a black middle class in the UK.
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There's something about middle class culture in Britain that is
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inherently white and white coded.
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I reject this idea that there has to be a proximity to
0:18
whiteness. For me, I see it as what do you
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earn? Can I own property?
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If you can do all of these things as part of British
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culture, you are part of the middle class.
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We do have to have strategies as to how we're going to earn money
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to then have influence to then make change.
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I don't think we need to presume that money needs to come before
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the change. The change can't happen without
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money. Hello, welcome to Think Twice.
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My name is Beno. My name is Santa, if you've
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never. Watched Us before the show is
0:57
about morals, dilemmas and ethics and basically based in
1:02
philosophy. And the reason why I'm saying
1:04
that is because I think we have some new people today.
1:06
You don't care what I have to say or don't really care what
1:09
TEF has to say. No, but they care what this
1:13
footballer, lawyer, media personality and philanthropist
1:21
and most importantly the Lasso start.
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That's the say hey, welcome, Annie.
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Thank you. Thank you for having me.
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That's my claim to fame. The Ted Lasso stuff, everything
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else. Everything else, just ignore the
1:36
rest. And also the first female Pandit
1:41
on Match of the Day. Which is that's my unbelievable.
1:45
Isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that was a long time
1:47
ago. That was like, what, 10 years
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ago now? Yeah. 20/20/2014 You.
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Still look young as ever. Today we're going to discuss
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black Britain and various different things within Black
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Britain. Which brings us to the first
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question. Will there ever be a significant
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black middle class in the Uki would.
2:07
Like to think there is already one.
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I just don't think that it's established in the way that I
2:15
think, you know, we think of middle class.
2:18
But certainly I think in in in Britain, you are seeing, you
2:23
know, more black and brown ethnic minority children, young
2:29
people going to Russell Group universities.
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You know, I think it's important to define what middle class is
2:36
100% because like, you know, there was this whole like
2:39
debate, I think Kemi Baddon not recently talked about, you know,
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I was working class when I worked, worked for McDonald's.
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But ultimately, like it's quite a simple definition like working
2:49
class is you know the working person like if you have.
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To. You have to work to make money,
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right? So that is pretty much it.
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You know, my background is law. I studied law, became a lawyer.
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I don't think I became middle class as soon as I became a
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lawyer, but if you become established in that field, you
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can then buy a house, you can then travel, you know, then your
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social mobility moves from sort of a certain level of income to
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now a higher level of income, which then opens and unlocks you
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to do certain things. You can invest in property.
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So that that that I see more of in terms of the black community.
3:31
And I'm very, very happy about that because, you know, I think
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we work extremely hard and the rewards of that is, or should be
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so for me, social mobility. Yeah, I agree.
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I think I think you touched on a lot of of the markers of the
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economic middle class, which is higher education, white collar
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working. So you don't necessarily use
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your like physical labour to earn money, you use your degree
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or like your connections built in higher education.
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I think economists would use that definition for middle
4:03
class, but I think the more difficult one to define is what
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is culturally middle class. And I think when I answered the
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question, my answer was no, that there won't be a black middle
4:12
class in the UK. Blame you're kind of on your
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ones on this one then, yeah, but.
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Do you think there? Is I don't think there will be
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evil. No, I think you're, you're
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definitely right. And I agree with you that a lot
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of black people, especially second generation immigrants,
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have done quite well to access higher education and potentially
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get these sort of white collar jobs and open the pathway for
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home ownership and like economic prosperity.
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But I think there's something about middle class culture in
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Britain to me that is inherently white and white coded.
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Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
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I don't think that allows in a cultural sense for blackness and
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African heritage to be appropriately like recognised
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and appreciated, which is part of why I said that they won't be
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technically like a black British middle class.
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So. So give me an example of what
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you associate with culturally white middle class.
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I would say culturally, white middle class is all about the
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way like people present in the world.
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So it's about the way they talk. There's a proximity to like the
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Queen's English, for example. It's about the way they dress.
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So you might dress a certain way and you might behave more
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conservatively in certain public spaces.
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And I think a lot of these things are difficult to like
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quantify and define and be like that is middle class.
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But there's a sense of proximity to whiteness in a lot of these
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spaces and institutions that I would associate with the British
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middle class. It's also geographically quite
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focused. So if you in certain parts of
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London, you'd say that is a middle class suburban community
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and you could distinguish that from a black working class
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community which is in the in the in the city.
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So it's difficult to define, but like I would hold onto those
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markers. I think it's interesting because
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that's why I asked what you define what you see that as,
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right? Because I think if you were just
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to take London and you were to take, you know, what I would say
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is middle class areas like W London, there's obviously a
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predominance of of white white people and white professionals.
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But I think for those black people who, as I said, I've
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broken into those industries, they live in Richmond, they live
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in Chelsea, Wimbledon, Wimbledon.
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Like numerically, obviously there's less of us, but we can
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break into those spaces without, without barriers.
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So I reject this idea that we have to be there has to be a
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proximity to whiteness. For me, I see it as what do you
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earn? Can I own property?
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I think that is a huge signal of what class you're in.
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And can I do I have financial freedom to book a table at a
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middle class place without barriers?
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If you can do all of these things culturally for me as part
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of British culture, you are part of the middle class.
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I do think there's an element though of needing to appreciate
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how white people would see us. So like you say, a lot of the
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markers of economic like whether we're middle class or not, the
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three of us in this room, we have all of those markers and
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economically we are middle class.
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But if you were to ask a family from those areas that you're
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talking about a. White family a white.
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Family Am I part of the British middle class?
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There's a gap there, and that gap is race.
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Why do we need to centre what they think?
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I agree, I don't. Care we live in a white
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patriarchy. So like, I think when you live
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in a white supremacist culture, what the predominant culture
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believes you to be is impacts your daily life.
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Of course, of course. But I'm saying what their their
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view and opinion is one thing, what you can prevent me from
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doing is another. If I want to go to Wimbledon but
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I want to send my child to private school.
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If I, if I want to do all the things that you can do as a
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white middle class person in Britain, if I can do it without
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barrier, based on what you think, what you think doesn't
8:17
matter because there is a culture and a society that
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actually allows you to scale if you, if you work hard enough.
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I hear you because there's always going to be push back and
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that white supremacist system and and structure means that
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it's like you're pushing against something here that's quite set.
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But I don't feel, I don't feel that there's lots of barriers to
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that. And I think I.
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Think I think there are though, because if you think about and
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maybe me using the white middle class family as the marker or
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the barometer for like our judgement is the wrong like
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example. I think it's probably more
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useful to look at institutions and like how institutions treat
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black people, because institutions obviously have a
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massive impact on our, our, our daily lives and our prospects
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and our, you know, opportunities.
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But also these institutions are large groups of people.
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It's not just like an individual making a judgement of you is
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sort of an entrenched way of, of being been the institution.
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So something like a workplace, there was a study done like I
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think it was like 10 years ago about job applications with an
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African name versus job applications with a white name.
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And it's like, do you know what? I.
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Mean and it's like that is an example where I am being judged
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unfairly and the the the access I have to that social mobility
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is being impacted because of an African name.
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And I think institutions do have the ability to hinder our social
9:50
mobility. 100%, yeah, 100%. But I do think we're slightly
9:55
missing the point here, OK? Because what you guys have been
9:58
discussing is can like an individual become middle class.
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And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
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It's more like kind of community, a reasonable amount
10:09
of people be middle class in the UK that are black.
10:13
Yeah, I hear that. And I think they're just
10:14
slightly 2, slightly different things.
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So that and the reason why I agreed with TEFF was sort of
10:19
because the number of black people in the UK is so low.
10:23
There's three. Percent right?
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Exactly. There's there's, there's just
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not many. And then mixed black because if
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you look at the US, because the US is probably the best example
10:33
of like a black middle class within a white supremacy.
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Yeah, absolutely. And mixed race people in the US
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are viewed as black, whilst mixed race people in the UK have
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a slightly different nuance experience.
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Like it it, it sort of depends on the black figure in that
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family. That's like quite a crucial
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part, particularly what part of the UK would they were born, if
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they were born in London, they might feel more black because
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they're around more black people than the way they're socialised.
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Exactly. The, the, it's hard to count
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mixed race people in the black community in the UK as you would
11:10
in the US. Like obviously there still are
11:12
people, but it's, it's just slightly different.
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And then probably the, the point that I think is the most crucial
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point is the creation of the black family.
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Like the black experience in the UK is very different to that of
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the US. the US black experience is quite homogeneous.
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Like a lot of the black Americans have experienced
11:31
segregation, slavery and then have cultural norms the same as
11:37
other black people in the US. Whilst in the UK you have people
11:41
from Africa and then different countries in Africa alongside
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the Caribbean, then different countries in the Caribbean and
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they're all just slightly different.
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Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
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So it's not I I definitely agree with you.
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It's not homogeneous in the same way, I think in the US and there
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is less of us. And I think it's also our
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journey's different. Like say you, you, if you're
12:03
African, you have somewhere to go back to, right?
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I think in the US there is a lot of people, Black people in the
12:10
US who don't, who just identify as American.
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Yeah. African American.
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So their experience with the white supremacist culture is
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different. Yeah, I agreed.
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I do think that sort of the liberation from like white
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capital essentially, yeah. And the generation of a black
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economy, I think that's a big part of what could be considered
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the future of a black, absolutely black middle class in
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this country. And we're head and we're
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heading, I would like to think we're heading towards that.
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I'm trying to make an investment right now in in a property.
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And I said to myself, actually, you know, this time I'm going to
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try and find people in venture capital who are black.
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There was so many V CS. I think that's what we
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consciously need to do. That's the for me, that's the
12:57
solution. We need to be more conscious
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about like the economy that we're creating within ourselves.
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Full disclosure, I'm pretty anti capitalist.
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I'm not. I'm not.
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That's fine. Yeah, I can't.
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There's something about capitalism to me that excludes
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the people at the bottom. Like I say, the three of us
13:15
here, we've got economic opportunities that we, you know,
13:19
put us in the top strata of of our own black community.
13:23
But I think capital begets capital.
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So if you don't have capital to begin with and you are, you
13:31
know, working class without a lot of economic prospects, which
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a lot of people in this country who are black, that's the
13:36
situation they describe themselves in.
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It's difficult to get out of that.
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And you could get out of it, but it's kind of like survivorship
13:43
bias. You've made it out, but it
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doesn't mean that the conditions in which you were put were fair.
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And I think we should try. And how do you, how do you
13:50
navigate a capitalist structure if you if you don't like
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capitalism, what's the solution to that?
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How do you make money Well. No, I want a podcast right now.
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This is like between me and Benz.
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This is technically a capitalist venture, right?
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It doesn't mean that like I completely like detract from
14:10
capitalism and don't buy clothes or not don't buy food.
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It's just like I move in capitalism with the knowledge
14:17
and the appreciation that what I'm doing and my participation
14:21
in capitalism isn't ethical. But it's a situation that I'm
14:23
forced to be in and I have to hold both thoughts on my mind at
14:26
the same time. And at times it's quite
14:28
uncomfortable. But but overall, I just think a
14:35
system that exploits workers labour can never be the ultimate
14:41
destination for liberation. Do you see my point?
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I just think there's other solutions that we can come to
14:48
that are community based and where everyone has a seat at the
14:51
table and it's all funded by everyone in a certain community.
14:55
For example, the black economy to me is a great example of a of
14:58
an opportunity that black people have to start from the ground
15:01
up. Like we could do it all over
15:02
again. We could do it in a different
15:04
way to like the capitalism we see out in the world.
15:08
We get the opportunity to reinvent like what economy,
15:11
trade and like all these things actually mean.
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And as we keep talking about like some further segments,
15:21
we'll touch on like some examples of the way that black
15:24
people can do this in media, in business.
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So I'm not going to, I'm not going to drag out this segment,
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but to to Benson's point that he made earlier about about the
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black family being an important institution and any sort of
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black middle class. I think another important
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institution that Americans have that we don't have in the UK is
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the HBCU. Oh my God.
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Yeah. And like I think the HBCU is a
15:51
brilliant way for Black Americans and African Americans
15:55
to appreciate their culture and to learn a pro black worldview
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at a young age because we go to schools, Benz and I went to a
16:06
secondary school that was predominantly white and it's not
16:09
pro black. You know what I mean?
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It's not none of these institutions are going to teach
16:13
us like pro black attitudes and pro black worldviews.
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And to me, and if you, if you're in a white culture that is
16:22
inherently anti black, you need to learn pro black behaviour,
16:26
you need to learn pro black history.
16:29
And in the absence of that, I don't see how the UK can build
16:34
that backbone of a culture that appreciates African descent and
16:38
African tradition. So it's another reason why I
16:40
think I don't know if we'll get to a place where in this country
16:44
we're going to have a distinct. Yeah.
16:46
I, I don't, I don't think we should hold our breath on that.
16:49
Yeah. That brings us on to our next
16:54
question. Is Black ownership of media
16:58
essential for Black progress? 100 percent, 100%, you go from
17:04
talent to IP owners. You know, intellectual property
17:10
is, is, is the asset. And so if you own that, that's
17:15
the value. I think it's very much accepted
17:17
now that we're brilliant talent in sport and entertainment.
17:21
They're happy to pay us to be talented and come on their
17:24
platform. But now we've got, we've got to
17:27
move into producing, creating, owning. 100%, yeah.
17:32
What do you think black people get as a result of all of those
17:35
things? Like I, I know in essence, like
17:39
all those things are important. What is the like tangible goal
17:42
at the end that you see? Value money, yeah.
17:45
And ownership for me that's the epitome of value is to is to
17:51
have an idea, create it, produce it, share it with the world and
17:57
sell it to whoever wants to buy it.
17:58
Like I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but for me
18:02
that I. Should say it from like a
18:03
slightly different perspective like I because I think we can
18:07
make money. Sorry, it's also the legacy.
18:11
Yeah, of that, right. I think I broadly agree with you
18:15
about the ownership. I think the most important thing
18:18
for me is like the story, the narrative around, like the black
18:23
existence. If that's controlled by white
18:26
people inherently, there's going to be misrepresentation there.
18:30
Like they, they can't encapsulate what it truly means
18:34
to be back in whatever context that we're talking about,
18:37
whether it's, you know, newspapers, video media, all
18:41
that sort of stuff. If I leave the narrative of you
18:45
know the black experience to a white person catering to a
18:48
majority white audience. We have to reclaim it.
18:51
Ain't going to go right we have. To we have to reclaim the
18:53
narrative. That's essentially the issue
18:55
with like Top Boy. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
18:58
That's a massive hint. Well, it was the producers and
19:03
the people that wanted to push whatever narrative were white.
19:07
And there was like, it was like, well, he's obviously Kay's
19:13
famous name involved in it, but like, Drake wasn't in the
19:16
writing room, for example. I didn't know that and.
19:18
So people like Kano had an issue with it and like Ashley Waters
19:22
had an issue with the direction of the show because of these
19:26
people writing it. But do you not think that we are
19:29
responsible for that? Because we all bought top, top
19:34
boy, we all watched it. We all made it top of Netflix.
19:36
So we're feeding into the narrative.
19:40
We're saying, we're saying I. Don't think black people made
19:41
top boy number one on Netflix charts.
19:43
I think white people did. But nonetheless, because.
19:46
Because it's the UK show, right? You can't get to the top of the
19:48
charts unless white people fight.
19:50
With it, but nonetheless, like I I don't think that's because of
19:53
I think it's in spite of Kano, Ashley Walters and that made the
19:57
show slightly different. I still think a lot of people
19:59
would watch it. The the probably the good
20:01
example was probably super cell that did just as well really, if
20:05
anything, and that was written obviously by Ratman.
20:09
So it's not. Just as well.
20:12
Yes it did. No, no chance.
20:14
She she didn't. Well, it didn't do top boy
20:15
numbers. No, no.
20:17
Chance, I think it was first. It was first in the chance for
20:21
like a week maybe. I saw that.
20:23
It was like, it was like. On the Netflix list.
20:25
Trending well. Compared Supercell's first
20:28
season to top boys first season. Yeah.
20:32
Supercell did. Supercell is doing well.
20:34
Did better than definitely did better than top boys.
20:36
First season, Yeah, I don't know.
20:39
We don't we don't know the numbers, right?
20:41
Yeah. Final season.
20:42
Yeah, we should. We should Fact Check the
20:44
numbers. But yeah, I think, I think, you
20:46
know, I think you're right. And and I think from a quality
20:48
perspective, it was probably better, but but it's
20:52
interesting. Don't give them anything to
20:56
happen to you. Don't take it and run.
20:58
You know, I think I think to that point about top boy.
20:59
So the only issue then that you have is that it's not
21:03
black-owned. Do you think it would have been
21:05
a different narrative if it was black-owned?
21:08
I I don't I didn't have the issue, I was using that as an
21:10
example. I kind of didn't like Top Boy,
21:12
to be fair. Yeah, I know you.
21:12
Didn't I didn't like it because I just felt like, what's the
21:15
point in perpetuating this, right?
21:18
This, these stereotypes, stereotypes, but all the like
21:23
media stuff that I saw them talking about was like, well,
21:27
this is this is what East London's like it.
21:30
Does exist. It exists.
21:31
So we're, we're shining a light on that.
21:34
I didn't really understand why you have to shine a light on
21:36
what we already know. But for them, it was what we're
21:40
showing you how we've what the ends that we grew up in and how
21:43
we made it. And we're trying to show the
21:46
youth that like, this is, this is not the way you have to go,
21:49
which is fine. I always hate that thing like I
21:51
hate. That I hate that.
21:53
One, but to them it's it's what they're it's their intention,
21:56
right Like yeah, I don't get it because I would rather show have
22:00
a share about something that feels.
22:03
Aspirational. Aspirational.
22:06
So you're showing them that no, no, no, all these black people
22:08
that you think can't be in this space, you can be in this space
22:12
versus showing people a stereotype that they already
22:15
associate with black people. Exactly.
22:17
And I think I think what it actually comes back to is that
22:20
if you think about the economics of media, the person who
22:23
dictates the content is the person who pays for it.
22:27
So on Netflix, Netflix are catering to their audience,
22:31
their audience have a certain idea of the black experience in,
22:34
in a London, in a city London. And if your show doesn't cater
22:40
to that, to what they believe, the stereotypes that they have,
22:44
it's not going to do as well. It's just that simple.
22:46
And I think when we are within that sort of that framework of
22:52
like catering to a mass audience, we're always going to
22:55
be beholden to that mass audience.
22:57
Yeah, but I think Netflix, to use Netflix example, if you can,
23:01
you can switch off Top Boy and then go on.
23:04
I think there was another show about Nigerian, wealthy
23:06
Nigerians. I mean, I thought it was a
23:08
little bit like I thought it was.
23:10
A young, young, rich and African.
23:12
Young, rich and African. That was garbage.
23:15
It I think that it was garbage in a way it was shot.
23:18
I think it. And the content was.
23:19
Also trash. I think it no but no but the
23:21
just. Reality TV, right?
23:22
But I'm just thinking about the concept.
23:24
Those people are rich Africans. So I would rather see that done
23:28
in a more tasteful way so that the youth touch, you know,
23:33
watching that, I go, oh, I can become a, you know, a
23:38
billionaire if I want to be, you know, So I'm more into that.
23:43
I think Topware definitely has a place or like those sort of
23:45
shows definitely have a place. On to the final segment, which
23:53
is the dilemma. You run a successful one person
23:56
media company through social media and art.
23:59
A prominent media company, XYZ Limited approaches to buy 25% of
24:05
your venture in a non negotiable deal that would be personally
24:09
lucrative for you. Although XYZ promises to open
24:13
your message up to new audiences without changing your content,
24:17
the company has been accused of limiting individuals creative
24:20
control in the past. Do you accept the deal?
24:24
25% of the company. 25% but you're about to make a lot of
24:27
money though. That that don't that's not that
24:31
doesn't. Drive for you.
24:32
That's not. Yeah, because the equity is what
24:35
I care about, right? So, and I've created this, I've
24:39
created this company. I own it.
24:43
It's a media company. So there's a lot of IP content
24:47
and you want to get 25% for a lot of money and you don't.
24:53
I don't have creative control. Well, no, you do say you do, but
24:57
like historically, this company's been a bit limited.
25:01
I I think what I would do in this situation is shop around.
25:05
It's unlikely you would accept that the 25%, no.
25:09
Without without shopping around 1st and seeing if you know I
25:15
can, I can bring the equity down.
25:18
So you get like similar in like similar sort of range.
25:21
I I think that the word limiting, I'd have to
25:23
investigate what that is negotiate what that is right.
25:26
So if you're saying, OK, well for this 25%, we're setting up a
25:31
board of four white men that get to dictate to me, I would rather
25:36
die. That's right.
25:38
But if you're saying to me, OK, we need, we need a bit more say
25:41
on, you know, the creative. We need a bit more say on like
25:45
when it launches like those are those are compromises you can
25:49
kind of make. Yeah, I.
25:51
Think I think I. Would reject the deal, but I
25:54
think I guess the way I'm coming at this is like part of my
25:59
existence in a sort of media space, for example, like on this
26:01
show is I see it as incumbent upon me to challenge white
26:07
supremacy in what I say and like the the topics that we talk
26:11
about and the stances that I take.
26:13
I see that as like my job, like that's what I'm, that's what I'm
26:17
supposed to be doing in front of the camera.
26:18
And if I'm not doing that, I'm a bit like, what's going on here?
26:22
Like what? Why am I even opening my mouth?
26:24
And there's a part of me that thinks if I took the white man's
26:29
money, I can't do that anymore. I can't do both things.
26:34
I can't challenge white supremacy and tell my audience,
26:38
oh, actually I'm owned by this white company, which does have
26:41
the all those white men on their board.
26:42
Do you get what I'm trying to? Say, yeah, well, this goes back
26:44
to my point that like there are alternative finance options that
26:50
are black and black controlled, right?
26:51
So either way, like we don't live in a vacuum.
26:56
So we have to do these transactions if we want to do
26:59
what we want to do, right? Like it, you know, and we live
27:02
in a capitalist structure. So there has to be an exchange
27:05
and the transaction somewhere if you want to do what you want to
27:08
do. But it's who you do it with.
27:11
You might take their money, but it's very much on your terms.
27:17
I guess when I think about my audience members hearing about
27:19
that deal, how would they feel? I'm just like, but you see, if
27:23
I, if I was the audience member, I'd be like, oh, fuck this
27:26
snake, all that. He's actually just snaked me.
27:28
Yeah. But you see, I always find, I
27:31
always think this is really interesting.
27:33
I think that that pressure that you're putting on yourself,
27:36
it's, it's based on hypocrisy because you've just said my, I
27:41
can't look my audience in the eye, take money for my media.
27:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah. From a white person or white
27:49
court company. So, so the pressure that that
27:51
audience is putting on you is dictating your decision.
27:55
And I'm saying that audience, can they look themselves in the
27:58
mirror and say we don't benefit from a British society?
28:03
I guess I don't see myself as separate to the audience.
28:05
I see myself as the audience as well.
28:07
No, no, no, same. Oh, I'm a, I'm a, I'm the proud
28:10
black Nigerian woman, of course. But I, I grew up here and I and
28:16
I represented England. Absolutely.
28:19
And I think we can, we can draw the lines that we think are
28:23
appropriate. I see the conflict there.
28:26
And actually I think that conflict that you're talking
28:27
about is, is something that so Paul Gilroy, he's he's an author
28:33
who talks about the intersection between race, class and politics
28:38
for black people in the UK. And he had has this term called
28:42
the Black Atlantic, which is the sort of this double
28:47
consciousness that people in the West who are black have, which
28:52
is like, we're part of the African diaspora, but we're also
28:54
here. There's a Britishness in US
28:57
that's undeniable that we can't. For a long time I didn't really
29:00
know where I fit. Like it was kind of like, OK,
29:04
like I'm not fully accepted as English, especially when you
29:09
lose. When you lose, it's like
29:11
Nigerian born. When you win, it's like, Oh
29:16
yeah, she's one of us. But then when I went to Nigeria
29:20
when I was younger, I also didn't feel hard.
29:23
So it's this. It was this in.
29:25
Between. And the double consciousness.
29:29
But I, I, I think the solution to that is embracing all of it
29:32
and saying I, I am part of British culture with all the,
29:38
the, the darkness that comes with that.
29:40
You can do both. You know, I think we're, we, we,
29:43
we're often so binary in the way, you know, are you British?
29:46
What, what are you, I'm both, you know, I'm British and
29:50
Nigerian. Some people are 3-4 different
29:52
things. And I and I think that's, that
29:55
helps this sort of feeling of like conflicts that that, you
29:59
know, you reference. Yeah.
30:01
And I think, I think one of the key takeaways that I have from
30:05
what Paul Gilroy said in his book, his book's actually called
30:09
There Ain't no Black in the Union Jack, which is like a
30:11
racist chant that like people of that time, you know, if he wrote
30:15
the book in the nineteen 1980s, was that considered a very
30:19
controversial book at a time? But like you read it now, it's
30:21
like, Oh yeah, makes sense. But he, one of the things that
30:27
he talks about is what you, you said about having the
30:30
recognition, appreciation and love for our African heritage in
30:35
the same way that Britain, white Britains have that same love for
30:39
their heritage and their history here in England.
30:42
We can't tap into that. And we, I don't think we should
30:45
aspire to tap into that history because we're not part of that.
30:48
I mean, if you look at that history, it exploits black
30:50
people. And Gilroy makes the makes the
30:54
argument that blackness cannot be in Britishness in that way
30:58
because Britishness is based on the exploitation of black people
31:02
in the past. So for me, my take away from,
31:05
from all it is to summarise is that we exist in the British
31:08
context and the English context, but we have to critique it as we
31:13
exist. Like we have to continue to
31:16
challenge that that. And it comes back to to my
31:19
answer in the of the scenario is that because I see my place as
31:25
someone that has to critique white supremacy, I just can't
31:29
take the money because it undermines that crucial central
31:33
message for me. I don't prescribe that on anyone
31:35
else. But for me, I'd take that so
31:38
seriously and that I put that above the economic gain or like
31:42
the prosperity of my venture. And I would die on that.
31:46
I would die on that sword. I would I would say just the way
31:50
the world works, the people who have made a lot of money are the
31:55
ones who can actually challenge it the most.
31:59
I think while you guys have had the discussion like something
32:03
important is like, come to me like, I think there's just like
32:07
we were talking about strategy earlier, like, and if we want to
32:09
talk about how we strategically change these things, you have
32:13
someone who does it one way and another one who does it another
32:15
way. And I think there's no wrong
32:17
ways are beneficial to create the change that you want to
32:21
create because the the goal is still the same.
32:22
It's just how we do it right. Yeah, 100%.
32:25
My question always is, how do you make enough money in this
32:30
capitalist society if you're on the outside, If you're on the
32:34
outside? I think the goal is to make
32:39
change, right? It's to it's to improve society
32:43
for the better, for the black community.
32:46
That's the goal that we both have.
32:48
And if you know, two people are coming out from different
32:52
perspectives, that's absolutely fine.
32:54
But I don't think we need to presume that money needs to come
32:58
before the change. The change can happen without
33:01
money. I.
33:01
Think we do have to have strategies as to how we're going
33:04
to earn money to then have influence to then make change.
33:08
I think if you're in the rooms and I'm on the streets, we can.
33:11
We can come to exactly. That's why I came on it's
33:14
podcast. And on that note, we actually
33:18
have to end. Yeah, thank you for.
33:20
Joining us, I think to ask, I hope you enjoyed yourself.
33:24
Much love. Take care.
33:26
Thank. You for having me guys.
33:27
I really enjoyed the conversation.
33:28
Sensation was a pleasure. To have you.
33:42
Alright, lovely. Can you check the camera?
33:44
Does the cameras pick up? Pick that up?
33:46
Oh, I'm. I'm a little bit.
33:48
Stressed about that. For me, as a black woman, I
33:51
think it's important, alright. Cool.
33:52
We'll get it done. Yeah, we have to take them out
33:54
and redo it. Yeah, be done. 120 minutes.