Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Episode #16: Hitler in Heaven!? Count Me Out!

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Episode #16: Hitler in Heaven!? Count Me Out! · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if there is no hell,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: as we talked about last week,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: then what about all those evil people who deserve hell,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: who have victimized other people throughout human history in horrific ways?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is the big challenge to talking about a God of universal grace.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to try our best to tease that out today.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright along with Terry Summers.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Terry,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: we have been,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: this is like week four of a five week thing,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: maybe six weeks that we've been doing around a question that was sent to us.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we've been trying to just build layers.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Last week, we looked at how hell is not even in the Bible and what that might mean.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to talk a little bit more about that topic from the
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: perspective of,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: wait a minute,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: are you saying these guys get in?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: So read us the question.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: All righty, here I go.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: From our listener,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: I was always taught that we must decide to accept Christ before we breathe our last
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: breath or we will end up in hell forever.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: I know one can find scriptures to support this view,
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: but are there also scriptures that support the view that Christ will continue to
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: pursue unbelievers after death?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think partly what we're trying to do with this is to say that maybe some of
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: these questions or beliefs that we have about accepting Jesus and going to heaven
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: and having to do before we die.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a hell?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're trying to suggest that there is another way of looking at these scripture passages.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about the word all in the New Testament, that all will be saved.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: God's desire is that all be saved.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about how the gates of hell,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hades,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: cannot prevail against Jesus,
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: that Jesus has defeated sin,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: death,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: despair,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Gehenna.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus has defeated it all, and Jesus is going to have the final word.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: We've also said that it's the character of God that sets the agenda for how we talk about hell.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: The kind of monster that the belief in hell makes God is one of the reasons why so
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: many people want nothing to do with Christianity,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: because that God seems petty,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: vindictive.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think most people understand the need for justice, but a justice that is that long, as in never ends,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: especially when you look at how complicated human life is and what opportunities
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: people have and don't have.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm suggesting that God's going to have the final word.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: It will be a word of grace and that every knee will bow,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that first objection always is, so what about Hitler?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now you could do any sort of tyrant, but we'll use Hitler.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: What about Hitler?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it is grotesque to think that God would forgive Hitler.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just as offended by that as anybody else.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just finished a documentary, six-part documentary on Netflix.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was about Hitler.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I was just reminded at how absolutely evil Hitler
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: This man was, he wasn't even human.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: He was just pure evil.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: He was a madman.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the thought,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: and I'll also say at the end of the show,
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: because it was built around the Nuremberg trials where Hitler of course killed
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: himself because he's a chicken,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: but he,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: all of his minions,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: many of them were hung for their crimes.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then they showed pictures of their dead bodies.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to admit,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to applaud because of what they had done.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just get what you deserve.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So by any standard,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: to suggest that Hitler should go to heaven is enough for a lot of us to say,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: if Hitler's there,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: count me out.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be in a place like that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the argument.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a justice argument.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: God is certainly just.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And God must punish evil.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to play this out a bit to show how difficult that becomes.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say we all agree Hitler deserves to be in hell forever.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: But what about those millions of German people who lined the streets and yelled Heil Hitler
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: and bought into everything he said and treated him almost God-like.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you watch the films of these hundreds of thousands of people cheering on this madman.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And many of them were Christians.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: They believed that Hitler was God's chosen person to lead Germany.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: They may not have been fully aware of his evil, but they knew what was going on.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: They saw what was happening to the Jews.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: They were putting in ghettos.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Their buildings were being attacked.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: People were being shot in the streets.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: They knew that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Many of those Christian people turned their backs on the Jews or worse.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the church and many church leaders went along.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: They refused to stand up to the barbarity of the Nazis.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, should they go to hell?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And many of them believed in Jesus, accepted Jesus as their savior, still did all those things.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Should they go to heaven?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough one, right?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell another one.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So a few months ago, I finished up a book.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was on Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was sort of contrasted the two.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was about the Lincoln death procession.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was about Jefferson Davis during all of that, and then his own death procession.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm reading this book,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: just sickened at the way that Southerners held Jefferson Davis in high esteem,
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: almost to the point of worship.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a man who led half of the United States of America in war to keep slaves.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: He believed that he was carrying out God's will and calling.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: He would have called himself a Christian,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: as did many who owned slaves and perpetrated unspeakable horror onto those people.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not making an exact comparison, but maybe it is an exact comparison.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: The way that slaves were treated, the way that Jews were treated in the Holocaust.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So will Jefferson Davis,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: because he was a Christian,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: be admitted into heaven for all of the atrocities that he committed and Hitler go
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: to hell because he didn't believe in Jesus?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: What about all those who fought for slavery?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: What about all those preachers who stood up in their pulpits and preached that the
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Bible said that slavery is legitimate?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: But they're not going to go to hell because they believed in Jesus?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: How about all those Christians and preachers who in the 60s and even 70s and
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: probably still today fought hard to keep black people out of their churches?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And out of other white places.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now these are black, these are Christians.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do they get a pass because they were Christians?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then what about all those who were not Christian people,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: but who fought for the rights of black people?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And let's go back to Hitler just to play it out a little bit more.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: What if right before he died,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: He had a come to Jesus moment in his life.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And repented of everything he did, confessed faith in Jesus, and then blew his head off.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Would he go to heaven?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because he, at the last moment, confessed Jesus as his Lord and Savior?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Which is what we...
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: speak of and just talk and i mean i've heard yeah the deathbed conversion yep yep
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: and this is this is the moral problem when justice becomes the defining trait of
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: hell and christianity well say that one more time i'm gonna write it down this is
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: the moral dilemma that comes when justice is at the heart of christianity
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't make any sense in terms of justice.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus came to bring the kingdom of God.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: The kingdom is about standing up for the oppressed.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's about setting the captives free.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's about feeding the hungry.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we have a lot of Christian people who do just the opposite.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of non-Christian people who are actually living out the values of the kingdom.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And because of a decision...
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: to believe in Jesus or not,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Christians can get away with horrific kinds of behavior and still go to heaven.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And non-Christians who have lived into the values of the kingdom all their lives are going to go to hell.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make God all that just in the end.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make God very moral in the end.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: the reason why we need to believe in hell is because we do need justice, right?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: As human beings, we want justice.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: We don't,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: we can't tolerate the idea of Hitler or that drunk driver who kills a little girl,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: whatever it might be going to heaven because we need justice.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: We want fairness, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: we want pain inflicted on the people who have inflicted pain on us.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, that's just a normal human response.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: and in a society that needs to put boundaries around us to protect us from our
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: worst impulses,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: we need justice,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need bad people locked up.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can talk more nuanced about punishment,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: but we do believe that you hurt people,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: you need to be put away.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: We need to protect others from that.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it still causes all kinds of problems morally, and it causes problems with grace.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the end, it still makes grace something that I do.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I make a decision for Jesus.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can create hell all over the place, but as long as I've made a decision for Jesus, I'm in.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you would hope that Christians don't sort of say that, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in so I can do anything I want because that's not living the gospel.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: But it happens.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we see examples of it even today all the time.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Christians behaving badly.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've got non-Christian people who are behaving with dignity and value and honor,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: who are living more out the will of God than are some of these Christians.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a real moral ethical dilemma to base heaven and salvation on a
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: decision that we make versus on the work that God in Jesus has done.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let me pause there and see what you're...
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well...
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: One other thought that I had about...
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: You said one reason we need to believe in a hell is because we need to understand...
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: We want justice.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this might just be the backside of water if I say this, but also...
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: almost that we,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: that feeling of we've been saved from something,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: that I think causes this,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: need.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's something nebulous about all good.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's like, it's, it'll be, it's all good in the end.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Are you tracking me?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you run into a house and there's someone chasing behind you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Not that I've ever had that happen.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: And you slam the door and you're safe.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're safe.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're on this side.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that then allows, I think, also for us to be...
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's something that comes with being,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm on the safe side,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: but if there was nothing to not be on the safe side of,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: then that change,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: you know what I mean?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think, I don't know why that is a human thought that I feel is prevalent in just my subconscious, but.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I, and this is what we're going to do this next week.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: if God does in the end,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: save everyone,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: then obviously something has to be done with the evil that is in
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll look at some possible explanations for that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the point is that heaven can only be a safe place because it is a place where
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: the love of God has completely won the day.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of being from something.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's of something.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: So from something that heaven is because it is rather than I know I'm getting
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: really nitpicky,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: but the whole idea of like hell has played such a big part in my.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I feel like I and, you know, pardon my words, but.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: I like knowing that my,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: my choices that I had some say in it,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: I guess,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: or that somebody let me have some say that I have made a decision that keeps me
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: from that.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's something about the I'm saved from, you know, rather than this is just my gift.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're, you're, you're, for you, it's a little bit about control.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: I can't call me out here in front of everybody.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same for all of us.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: We want to, we want to be able to say I made the right decision.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the right team.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore I get in.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, there is like a instead.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a running from two rather than getting to exist already there.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's interesting how you say that hell has played such an important part of your faith.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if we just stop and thought about that for a moment, because that what you said is true.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we so hell bent on sending people to hell?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it that I can talk about a lot of different things as a pastor,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: but when I start to suggest that maybe hell doesn't exist,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: all hell breaks out.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we get so angry?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: About the possibility that maybe just maybe God loves everybody and was going to
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: have the final word in everyone's life.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why does that make us so angry?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Dang, I think you're onto something right there.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there's that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's a huge energy ball in all of these discussions.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: I know what you're building around.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: It gives us some confidence to entertain going there, but I,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think you hit the bullseye in that question.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: What is it about us being hell bent on,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: on there being a hell,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: but yeah,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: we're,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: we're,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: we're doing the work and discussing it or you're doing the work and I'm,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I am exposing my controlling nature.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we all have it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, I think that that's again, I, and part of it is justice.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it is being on the right team.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and, and, you know, maybe someday we'll spend some time talking about free will.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we, we, we've already gone into such weeds already.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You really get into it with the free will, but yeah.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, again, just to sort of come back to this whole thought about justice versus grace.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: we're talking about the character of God here,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: not about our character,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: but about the character of God.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I said this in the last podcast, the Bible says that God is love.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't say that God is loving.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously God is loving, but it says the essence of God is love.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's who God is.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so you got to ask, what does love look like then for God?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like Jesus on the cross is,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Entering into our death,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: entering into our hell so that hell,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: sin,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: and death can't have the final word in our lives.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what his love looks like.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: His love looks like his will that all be saved.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if God is willing to go to the cross in the person of Jesus,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: do we think he's going to let anything stop God from God's will being carried out
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: and all being saved?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Say that one more time.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: If God will go to the cross to save us,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: do you think he's going to let anything get in the way of his will that all be saved?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, so I'm like having a major kind of flashback over that question.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: I've never maybe been so bold to be specific within my brain.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: But if God desires it,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think to be honest and transparent,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: I've always thought that he's like,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: I desire it.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're not going to take it.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, well, you know, but if God desires it, God's God.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And why would he not see it through?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as we said a couple of times.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: We said a couple of weeks ago, we always talk about free will.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're not going to go there.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the Bible says we are dead in our trespasses and sins.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: That we are incapable of making a decision for Jesus.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's only Jesus who can raise us from the dead.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if some people stay dead in their trespasses and sin after they die,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus has already been to the place of the dead and spoke life there too.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's a trip.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Can true divine love take what it has created and roast it for eternity simply
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: because someone had the courage to say to God,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I can buy into this Jesus thing.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: For whatever reason.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are a lot of people right now who are going to hell, if you believe in hell.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not because they don't believe in Jesus,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: but because they've been so mistreated by Christians,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: they didn't stand a chance.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have seen a gospel of bad news and condemnation and judgmentalism,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: and they say,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I want nothing to do with that.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we could argue they're not really rejecting Jesus.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're rejecting a perverted view of Jesus, and maybe God will have mercy on them.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but if they don't make a decision for Jesus, they're going to hell through no fault of their own.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's the problem with justice.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: If we look at justice as getting even and punishment.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to talk about what God's justice is?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: More so next week.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I will drop a few today.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: We want to argue that love is fair.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what if there's nothing fair about love?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: If it's pure love, then there can be nothing fair about it.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just pure love.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just loves.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't discriminate.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: It splashes on anyone and everyone.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: God's love isn't fair.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus told stories about that over and over again.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Fair and unfair?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: His love is always unfair because it's given to all of us.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not based on fairness.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's unconditional.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: If love is fair, then it's conditional.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when we talk about God being love,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: and we'll look at a verse here in a few minutes,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: God is love not just to believers,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: but to unbelievers.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because God loves all that God has created.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let me wrap up some stuff and then we'll give you some time to see what questions you have.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to dive deeper next week into,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: so let's say,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: let's just suggest that God does ultimately save the worst of humanity.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: As they are.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when they get to heaven, they bring their evil with them.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: What happens to all of that evil?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about that next week.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where we can get a little bit more to justice.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have two views of justice.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we've talked about this in a podcast before.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's punitive justice.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Restorative.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which only punishes.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's restorative.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Reconciliation.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is a judge motivated by love.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So his judgment and justice is always about restoration and putting things back together,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: not about punishing.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the other problem we have with the whole hell concept is we base our
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: view of justice on law courts rather than on God and restorative justice.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: So let me give you four quick references here just to kind of hang our hats on.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: As Jesus is hung on the cross, there's a mob down below cheering his death.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus says from the cross, Father, forgive them because they don't know what they're doing.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most horrific acts of violence is perpetrated on Jesus in that moment.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's innocent.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: But rather than saying,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: send those people to hell,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus says,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: forgive them because they are ignorant.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know what they're doing.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So he has just wiped the slate clean for all those people who put him on the cross.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: No punishment, no hell.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: He just forgave them on the spot.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: The story of the woman caught in adultery.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: when all those men were around her wanting to stone her because she had broken the
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: law and she deserved to be murdered,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus knows she's guilty.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: He knows she should be punished.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, I don't condemn you.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't ask for it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't repent.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: He just said to her, you're forgiven.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now go and live as a forgiven person.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's no condemnation at all.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: He just let her go.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: We've looked at the prodigal son story many times.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: This guy rebelled against his father, against his family, against his community.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: He had shamed himself.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: He comes home.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't apologize.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't repent.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yet the father runs to him and simply forgives him and clothes him in the
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: clothes of the family and throws a meal for him.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: No repentance, no apology, no punishment, no hell for a guy who didn't deserve it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then this last thing, Jesus says, love your enemies.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I say to you,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you may be children
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: of your father in heaven.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: righteous and on the unrighteous.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus says here, you want to be like your father?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then love your enemies.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty radical stuff.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying something really significant about God there.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: That God loves God's enemies.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And either God loves them
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to figure out a way to bring them into God's goodness and grace.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or God doesn't really love them and he's going to send them to hell because his love is conditional.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus doesn't say that at all.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So next week, we'll dive a little deeper into our need to punish and God's need to restore.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: As we kind of wrap this part up and then we'll see after that.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: But we've done a lot of stuff, Terry.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my head is reeling and I've got all this stuff written down.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we got a couple of minutes.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: What's up?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, something just struck me.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: So the concept of repentance in my history and understanding has always been so that.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: there would be forgiveness that would come to me,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: that to repent and turn away,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: which I believe is what the word means,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: turn around or go a different direction.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: But in those stories that you gave examples of, it struck me so clearly that no repenting happened prior.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: But where does repentance fit in?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it would be in hope that, well, I'm going to let you answer that.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: But my thought is, aren't you glad I'm going to let you answer that?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, what am I?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: That out of that forgiveness that I would be called to,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: like when he said to the woman,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: go,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: and sin no more or whatever the wording was,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: it was after.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: So the repenting was like this instruction to live differently.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: I love you and you will forget.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like I have chills right now.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: I have...
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: always seen repentance on the other side.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know that repent is spoken of.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: So is that something we can talk about later or?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, we can do it right now.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I know we've talked about this kind of thing before in the podcast.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: If then religion.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: If I do this, if I repent, then God will do this.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the because therefore.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because Jesus loves me, therefore I repent.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's his love that causes me to turn around.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my turning around that causes Jesus to love me.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's love for me that turns me around.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul even says it this way.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's your kindness that leads to repentance.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, dog.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's your kindness that leads to repentance.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that just says it right there.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Why have I not ever taken it that way?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: because we have piled layers and layers of a certain understanding of the gospel
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: onto something that really isn't there.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this kingdom of God,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: of Jesus and his passion to transform the world now,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: has been spiritualized and heavenized to the point that for a number of Christian people,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: groups now, all that matters is you make that decision and you go to heaven.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else, not all that important because this world's going to burn up.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't care about this world.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: All these people are going to hell.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: You just need to make sure you get in.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: So make the decision today.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's reduced Christianity down to a transaction and a get out of hell card
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: rather than Jesus who said,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've come that you might have life and have it to the full.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I hear those words.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: I say, okay, I want to live that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: that it's that word of promise that then moves me to want to live by the power of
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: the spirit,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of life.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that promise that turns me around.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned last podcast,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to a book about a,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: a theologian whose whole book is on universalism and,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: He said, there's the verse where Jesus says, I will draw all men to me.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's from John's gospel.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm raised up, I will draw all men to me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, the actual word is drag.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I will drag all people to me.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a far stronger word, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, draw, of course, still works.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: But to imagine that Jesus, there's no way Jesus is going to let anyone get...
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Get away from him.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: He is going to make sure that we are enveloped in that love.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we're only free.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're only free once we've experienced that kind of love.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Until we have, we're just sort of, we think we're free.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're not free until we've actually known that kind of deep love.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Tim.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Tim.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Terry notes for our next podcast,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: because I know we've talked about what's coming up in some of them,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: but wow,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: this was awesome.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, everybody, we appreciate you listening to us and please tell your friends about it.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can share it with them.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can subscribe on Apple or on Spotify,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: or you can go to recklessgrace.substack.com,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: recklessgrace.substack.com.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I do a post a week.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: We do a podcast a week.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And some of these podcasts I'll be following up with more Bible verses and stuff
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: that people can do a little bit more of their own research.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we hope you'll share with your friends.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Terry, thank you as always.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, let me, before you go, shoot, I need to go watch some of your serpents.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like you spoke not long ago on the recent stuff happening in the country.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that would be a suggestion, but we'll put it in our notes.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we can do that.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Terry.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.