Latest / The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois / The Comeback Is Delicious w/ Patrick 'Klokwize' O'Sullivan

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The Comeback Is Delicious w/ Patrick 'Klokwize' O'Sullivan · The Delicious Culture with Jon Francois

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  Like, I'm a Sag. Like, my brain is like, I'm
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  always like, well, how hard can it be? I'm a
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  Sag's true! Oh yeah, he was Sag! I forgot, November
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  27th, we're birthday buddies! You're my birthday
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  twins? Yeah, you, me, and Jaleel White from Family
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  Matters. We all shared it at the 27th. Hey, delishies.
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  Grab a plate and taste the delicious culture.
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  I'm your host, Jon Francois. We're feasting on
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  food, pop culture, and lifestyle with music artist
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  and actor Patrick Clockwise O'Sullivan. Hey,
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  Patrick. What's up, my friend? How are you? I'm
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  good, man. Me and Patrick, we go way back. I
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  believe to Hall High School over there in West
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  Hartford, Connecticut, where you still are. And
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  correct me if I'm wrong on this. The first time
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  that we met, we performed together in a spring
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  production of The Miracle Worker in like 2007.
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  Is that what it was? Yeah. Yeah, it was miracle
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  worker. Yeah, high school theater, man. What
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  a time. Yeah, it's so wild. And for those of
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  you who don't know, it's like the story of Helen
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  Keller, the blind and deaf girl. And I remember
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  playing Percy, an eight year old friend, sort
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  of maybe quasi slave of that household. And it
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  was kind of bizarre trying to be like an eight
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  year old. While being a teenager. I think I was
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  trying to like, you know Raise my voice up a
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  few pitches. What character did you play again?
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  So I was this is just sounds funny. This was
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  like playing a tree But no I was the narrator
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  and there is kind of there was a lot of narration
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  in that I I was like here we are set the scene
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  But it was fun, but I remember going to the audition
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  for that and like just there was like a brother.
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  There was a good character. There was like a
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  couple members of the family, but it was all
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  it was all meant to be because my voice ended
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  up being like they keyed in on that. Yeah. Okay.
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  I'm trying to figure out what memories I have
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  from that show. I think because it was directed
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  by the wonderful Sean Harris, who I believe now
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  works in New York City and Uh, was artistic director
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  of a fantastic professional theater in West Harvard.
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  Yeah, he's great. Yep. Um, I think the only memory
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  I have of the miracle worker, we had a rehearsal
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  that went really badly. And I think we had a
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  meeting afterwards in the black box theater and
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  Sean being his like very eccentric, intense self,
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  uh, had some dramatic pause and then just said
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  that was disastrous. And they just gave us notes
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  as to why it was disastrous. And look, I mean,
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  he's a nice guy, it means well, but looking back
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  on it, I was just like, oh my God, yeah, he was
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  having intense expectations for high schoolers.
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  It was - Dude, I don't need to remember that
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  either, that meeting. Oh my God. Maybe it was
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  another show he directed, but I feel like it
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  was The Miracle Warrior, because I feel like
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  there were some rehearsals that were kind of
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  clunky. But as is the case with theater, as I
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  was talking with my recent guest, Ian Walls,
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  who I did a Vermont stage production with, theater,
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  it becomes dysfunctional up until opening night,
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  and then it just all actually comes together.
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  That's show business. That's literally, you have
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  to the deadline and you get as many percent as
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  you can, 90 % or whatever, by the time you get
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  to that, that's show business. I love that. Yeah.
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  And so, all right. So we, you know, we eventually
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  graduated high school. You went to college, right?
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  Yeah. Well, it's funny because I, by the time
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  I was graduating high school, I went to the Academy
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  of the Arts half day and to take like, you know,
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  I was taking music and acting, performing stuff.
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  And then I was at all half day. And then by the
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  time I got out at 18, 19, I was already like
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  booking stuff as clockwise. Like I had my music
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  out and I had, you know, I was playing pretty
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  big theaters and I was kind of already on the
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  way. So I didn't go back to college till I was
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  30, which was interesting. Wow. So describe to
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  people who may not know, like what, how would
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  you describe your music to anybody who is not
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  familiar? I like to say it's like, it's like
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  thoughtful indie hip hop, indie alt. Like it's,
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  you know, for people that like, you know, uh,
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  Andrew Sandpack or Mac Miller or, you know, um,
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  things like that, that are a little more alternative.
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  It's, it's that vibe, you know, but I, I like
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  to talk about life. I think it's like, I don't
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  like to waste the song talking about nothing.
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  I like to really say things that are from my
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  heart. So it's very singer song rhetoric in that
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  way, but yeah, people can check it out. I'm curious.
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  So, uh, what made you want to go back to college
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  when you were 30 and, uh, and, and I'm sorry,
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  I'm 34. How old are you? So now I'm 37. Yeah,
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  so that was in the pandemic. I was 30, 31. And
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  I'm like, in the pandemic was really weird because
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  you really couldn't do, there's kids that aren't
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  going to have experienced that, but you really
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  couldn't do anything. And like, I had a, you
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  know, I had a couple things that I wanted, that
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  I always wanted to do. And one of them was to
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  like go into filmmaking and go into like, like
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  writing a, writing a script or writing a movie
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  or something. So I ended up going to, to, uh,
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  Connecticut State, which is like community college
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  for media and technology. And I took like screenwriting
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  and I took like newsroom, camera op, like audio.
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  And I know a lot of that from just being like,
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  from being in studios professionally for 15 years.
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  And like, I can set my own stuff up and play
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  gigs and record. And so like some of that I knew,
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  but it was just amazing to go back. And I thought
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  like, I thought everyone would think I was like
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  so cool. And like everyone who I'd be my friend,
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  but like when you're 30 and you go back, like
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  even no matter how cool you are, like it was
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  so funny to watch people be like confused by
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  it. I mean, you have a youngish face. I think
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  you could like easily blend in with, uh, with,
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  with, with the 20 something year old college
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  students. Um, what, what, what kind of blows
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  me away is like the people in like their seventies
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  or eighties that are going back to college and
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  Hey props to them. Cause it's never too late
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  to. you know, go back and get your degree. Like,
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  was it just a classic thing of like, it was like
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  a different generation? And so maybe you weren't
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  like hip to the pop culture references that they
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  were doing? Or like, what? Just like, I think
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  like, I think for me growing up, like, I was
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  very like, I'm very earnest, you know, like,
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  I really like, I mean what I say, and I'm very
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  sincere. And I think like, nowadays, we don't
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  live in a time of sincerity, you know, to care
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  about something. or to show that you care is
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  such a like, it's such a not where we're at.
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  It's like, I was in class like, how do I do it?
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  I don't know. I want to make this. Show me how
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  to do it. You know, I just think that's like
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  funny to be 30 and it's still, like you said,
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  still be coachable. And still learn new tricks.
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  Gotta learn new tricks always. You're a jack
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  of all trades, my friend. So you're interested
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  in filmmaking. I remember you telling me that
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  you're acting in this film that is coming out
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  soon? Yeah, I just finished a movie that it comes
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  out probably the trailer and stuff probably on
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  August September and it'll be on one of the streamers.
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  It'll be on, you know, one of the main kind of
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  streamers on your Roku. But yeah, like I ended
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  up starting in my college classes. I started
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  writing a script about what it was like to be
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  like an indie musician and to sort of get to
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  walk on the moon. But you don't, you know, it's
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  you don't get to stay there or what is it like
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  when you have to come back to your hometown or
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  when you're in a a slow year for booking, you
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  know, trends change or whatever. And it's like,
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  what do you do as an artist when it's not, you
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  know, it's not going great or you're not on like
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  on top, you know, I always find that interesting.
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  I loved all, I love all those kinds of shows
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  about somebody that used to be on top and has
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  whatever their, their pitfalls are in the game.
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  So like I ended up just starting writing that.
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  And then I was like, okay, what kind of movies
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  do I like? I like the adventure movies where
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  somebody gets thrown into a mystery and they
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  just happen to. be the person that can solve
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  it and you know whether that's like you look
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  at things like uh enemy of the state or get shorty
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  or uh rush hour or things like that where like
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  these guys you just get thrown into this mystery
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  and they have to just um use their good their
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  good spirit and stuff to like by the way do it
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  so That's the kind of movie I wrote, long story
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  short, is it's like a musician that is in a slow
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  point in their career and this whole mystery
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  happens in the town and this singer in the town
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  goes missing. He's kind of uniquely suited to
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  go look for this singer because he knows everybody
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  at the clubs. He knows how music works. He knows
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  the business. So I kind of become a detective
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  and it's called Permanent Records. It's really
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  good. What is it called? When can we expect it?
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  It's called Permanent Records and it's directed
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  by Brian Swarmstead, who's great, who's a Connecticut
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  native too. And he's spent a lot of time with
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  me going to like, we shot all over Connecticut,
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  like Old Line, West Hartford, New Haven, do you
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  name it? And so it comes out like August, September.
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  I'm excited for that. Oh my yeah, because I thought
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  like when you had told me that you were Acting
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  in a film that it was someone else's film. But
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  of course true to your nature We're in this age
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  where like it could be very difficult to get
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  accepted in other people's work, whether it be
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  more established or less established. So really
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  just say, fuck it and make your own shit if you
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  want something to happen. So I really admired
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  that you, um, that you have this interest in
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  both performing and script writing. And you just
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  said, fuck it. I'm going to make this story.
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  Uh, this has been on my mind. This is what's
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  going on in my world. I'm going to craft this
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  into a movie. Um, I can't wait for that. Oh my
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  God, that's, that's fantastic. Um, Talk to me
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  about the music part of things, because it definitely
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  ties into what your movie is about and what your
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  life is about. Because I remember... Sometime
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  after you and I left our college years, so to
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  speak, I was producing a public access television
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  show in West Hartford when I was still living
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  there. It was called A Moment with Jon François.
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  And at the time it seemed like you were very
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  focused on your music career. I think you were,
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  like your first appearance, you were promoting
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  what might've been, was it your first album,
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  Hood Hippie? Yeah, that was the debut. And that
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  album is still the one that is like, that just
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  blew past people sort of like. Like, my expectations,
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  man. That album was awesome. And I loved being
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  on your show. That was fun. Yeah, that was great.
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  And I know you had a second appearance where
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  you actually performed with, I think, still a
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  good friend of yours, Angela Grano? Angela Luna,
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  yeah. Angela Luna's great in the band. And yeah,
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  no, we had a lot of fun doing that. Yeah. So
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  talk to me about... where you were as an artist
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  then, where you are now and how it compares to
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  the shifting music trends that you speak of.
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  Cause we were talking about that over text and
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  I was like wondering what you meant by that.
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  Yeah. I, you know, I mean, Just like anything,
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  when that first album came out, Hooded Hippie
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  came out in 2012, then I had been doing mixtapes
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  before that and it used to be easier on the internet
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  for folks that don't remember. Some of you remember,
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  but it used to be easier to just drop tapes and
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  do blends and not necessarily pay for all your
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  samples or clear everything. You would just drop
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  stuff on the internet. So I spent high school
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  just on a bunch of DJs, mixtapes, and just rapping
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  and making beats and then... I got like a good
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  indie label like deal. And so 2012, but it became
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  out and it was, yo, it was so cool to see it.
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  Like it was on TV a lot. It was on ESPN all the
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  time. They would run it on like the X games,
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  first take shows like that. They would use a
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  bunch of the music from that album. And some
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  of them ended up in some movies that are like
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  on streaming and stuff. So that album just like
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  the songs just like jumped up so far. And, but
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  you know, but that's like a live band hip hop
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  album and. It's got reggae and all that kind
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  of stuff in it. And you know, I think it's aged
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  very well, but we're sort of, right now we're
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  sort of living in the eighties again. Everything
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  is synth, everything is excess, everything is
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  flash. And like, so you just kind of got to see
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  like as the trends turn around. And I also think
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  like probably rightfully so there started being
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  an analysis of like white rappers and white...
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  artists in hip hop like who is there to for the
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  right reasons who is there to like benefit and
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  take from the culture who's there to make money
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  and you know like that started being more of
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  an analysis where i'm thinking i would do more
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  interviews and more you know when i'm out on
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  tour and stuff and people would want to know
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  about that And that's probably a good thing,
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  but it just made it interesting. Because when
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  I was a kid and I started it, I didn't have any
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  of those thoughts. I was just happy to be there.
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  All my friends were DJs. We were rappers. We
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  were skateboarders. And we would just be out
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  making music. And you don't think about the marketplace.
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  You don't think about society. And so as you
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  get older, you start doing press. You start doing
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  meetings with labels. And you start to realize,
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  I have to take that into account. I have to take
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  in everything that's going on around us into
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  account. How do you feel about that? I think
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  because as race becomes a much bigger and more
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  relevant conversation both socially and politically
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  nowadays Do you feel as a white rapper in a Largely
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  black space like hip -hop as you were getting
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  these questions from people is there like a sense
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  of guilt that comes up that maybe I just, I don't
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  think, I think I'm there for the right reasons.
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  And like, I know that like I, I started with
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  everybody, like with every rapper sort of that
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  you can think of from Connecticut or from New
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  England, you know, and I got, after Hooded Hippie,
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  I got sort of discovered by DJ Quick, who's like
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  super famous pioneer black hip hop artist. So
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  like, I know I've always sort of like been on
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  the team that I, I feel like I'm playing on the
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  right team, but I just think like, there's a,
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  there's more of a level of distrust. Cause there
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  are a lot of people out there that are culture
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  vultures and are like, are just doing it for
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  internet clout and things like that nowadays.
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  So I just feel like I have to set a good example.
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  And I feel like I understand where in the 2000s,
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  2010s, we weren't asking those questions. We
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  weren't asking those questions about other things
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  too, about like how many women artists are on
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  a festival versus guy artists or this or that.
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  Like we weren't asking any of those questions
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  of like, how do we even things out? So I think
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  like my music's gone under appraisal where, you
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  know, It's just not as innocent as it used to
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  be. Like when I was a kid, I didn't have any
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  bad intentions or thoughts about that. Did you
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  get older society like analyzes your music for
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  you? But I think it's all age well. I guess I'm
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  thinking of like other well -known white rappers,
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  your Eminem. There's not too many right now.
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  There used to be. That's the thing. There was
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  a boom like back in the day. Yeah, yeah. Eminem,
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  Macklemore. Like I'm just thinking of those artists.
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  And I just wonder if... back in their prime if
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  that conversation that you speak of was happening,
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  but maybe on a more quieter level. I feel like
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  it wasn't analyzed as much like I know I would
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  go play shows like I play stadiums, you know,
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  like I've gotten to play all over the world.
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  Like I've played like huge theaters, New York
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  City, L .A. I played in England. I played in
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  Texas play anywhere in the world. People didn't
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  used to ask that question when there was more
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  out. There was like, what you said, there was
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  like eminent bubbles, barks, this and that. There
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  was like a bunch, but now I feel like, and that's
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  sort of why the movie was therapeutic for me.
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  I feel like, you know, oh, am I at the, is this
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  the end of a certain trend and the start of something
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  else? You know what I mean? Like it's a weird
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  time to be a white dude that. We had a bunch
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  of hip hop records like people analyze it weird.
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  So I just know it's interesting time and I like
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  that so so so you getting into acting and filmmaking
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  is that a response to oh shit, like maybe the
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  Music game doesn't have room for me anymore Or
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  was it just you just happen to have an interest
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  in acting and filmmaking at this moment and that's
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  always To me, it's always been the same. Like
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  I always loved just Everything cinematic and
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  acting and TV shows and like that's what I do
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  all day at home is just kind of like watch TV
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  shows. And I was doing music videos for years
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  where it'd be like, they'd be like, run, you
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  know, run from there to there and we'll have
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  people chase you or whatever. And you'd be doing
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  like the action scene in a music video or they'd
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  be like, you're gonna come into the bar and talk
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  to this girl here. And so I was already felt
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  like I was doing. scenes and stuff. So I just
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  felt like, it's not that I felt like I needed
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  to get out of the way of music, but I felt like
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  I needed to tell the story so that there is some
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  sort of like, you can see what it was maybe like,
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  you know what I mean? To be an indie artist and
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  like, just all the... All the challenges, all
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  the shit people throw at you that you have to
• 16:38
  make love and hate out of. For some reason, the
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  moment you were talking about, or starting to
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  talk about your movie and how it talks about
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  your journey as an indie artist, the first thing
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  I thought of was Joaquin Phoenix. Remember around
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  our high school time when - No, that movie is
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  crazy. Yeah, when he fooled people into thinking
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  that he was leaving acting to go into a hip hop
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  career. He had that infamous interview on Letterman,
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  but then it turned out - He was acting right
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  that movie that movies amazing and see that's
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  a great one to look at where you're looking at
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  like What's the pantheon of like white rappers
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  and he's sort of deconstructing that and making
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  fun of it? You know what I mean? Yeah, he goes
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  in to do he plays his music for oh now. It's
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  bad anyway He goes plays music for puffy. I'll
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  never forget that in the movie The worst music
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  I ever heard I bought into it. I was so gullible.
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  I was like, Oh God, I guess he's believing for,
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  for hip hop. Did you, did you know it was a joke
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  or kind of a performance he was putting on? It's
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  hard to tell with Joaquin, but at the time, no,
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  I kind of believed it. And it's like, people
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  do think their music is good. Like whatever,
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  you know, whoever you are, no matter what sort
• 17:49
  of, no matter what measure of how good your music
• 17:51
  is, everyone thinks their music is good. And
• 17:54
  people are, there is a lot of delusion. Right.
• 17:57
  Right. Oh my God. Well, uh, I'm, oh, here's,
• 18:01
  here's a question that just came to mind. Um,
• 18:04
  so from what I know, like you've really established
• 18:07
  your music reputation in the, in the Hartford
• 18:10
  area. And I think there was like a brief amount
• 18:14
  of time, maybe I saw on a social media status
• 18:16
  of yours, where you had mentioned, uh, producing
• 18:19
  an album in LA. And I guess my The question that's
• 18:25
  been roaming in my head about you is like, what
• 18:29
  is, have you ever thought about your identity
• 18:31
  as an artist in terms of a geographical sense?
• 18:34
  Because if we're talking about like the conventional
• 18:36
  stereotype of people who want to like make it
• 18:38
  big as a musician, they're going to New York,
• 18:40
  they're going to LA, they're setting up roots
• 18:42
  there, and then maybe they're touring around
• 18:43
  the country, blah, blah, blah. And I just wonder
• 18:47
  like what is what it was or what it is for you.
• 18:51
  Are you a guy that's like, all right, like my
• 18:53
  priority is establishing my artistic reputation
• 18:57
  in the Hartford area. And then every now and
• 18:59
  then I'll travel here and there or Do you find
• 19:03
  yourself wanting to someday, I don't know, going
• 19:05
  out west or going out to New York and advancing
• 19:08
  your career? What is the whole geographic thing
• 19:11
  in terms of an artist? And I say this all the
• 19:14
  time to people, I never really got the whole
• 19:18
  hardcore local thing because everybody's born
• 19:21
  somewhere. You come out as a baby, you were born
• 19:24
  somewhere. You are local to somewhere. So I just
• 19:26
  sort of the idea that I had to be like tied to
• 19:29
  any local place, what I wasn't really me. Like
• 19:32
  I really did go out and like, and still do, but
• 19:35
  I think when I, when the first couple of albums
• 19:37
  were out and I'm like 20, 21, I was at dude,
• 19:39
  it was like Manhattan, da da da everywhere we
• 19:41
  could go every day. And I get, I get more than
• 19:44
  a lot of people. Like I would play more shows
• 19:45
  a year than a lot of people. And like everywhere
• 19:47
  you go. you pick up those fans and because they
• 19:51
  met you and they actually saw you in person or
• 19:53
  they saw you at a theater that wasn't that many
• 19:55
  seats or whatever, they follow you for longer
• 19:58
  and they stick with you for longer. I never felt
• 20:02
  like I needed to be a Connecticut thing, but
• 20:05
  Connecticut was so good to me. When I flew out
• 20:08
  to LA, I was sitting here just doing my thing
• 20:11
  in Connecticut, in New England, Massachusetts,
• 20:13
  whatever, playing shows. And I had a bunch of
• 20:17
  videos on YouTube and I had mutual friends that
• 20:19
  ended up, it worked its way up the YouTube chain.
• 20:22
  It worked its way up to DJ Quick, who produced
• 20:25
  like Dr. Dre, Dog Pound, Eminem, 50 Cent, all
• 20:29
  sorts of big records. But like, so he called
• 20:31
  me when I was in Connecticut and I was literally
• 20:33
  at a shoe store. I was working part time, like
• 20:36
  moving sneakers and stuff. and like in between
• 20:40
  gigs. And he called me and I'm like, thought
• 20:41
  it was a joke. I'm like, all right, sure, whatever.
• 20:44
  I don't know. And then he called back and it
• 20:45
  really was. And it's DJ Quake, who's like super
• 20:48
  producer when you listen to West Coast rap music.
• 20:50
  And he's like, hey, I heard what you're doing.
• 20:52
  I like how you're rhyming on quarter notes. You
• 20:54
  got everything you need. Can I send you some
• 20:55
  music? And I'm like, I couldn't believe it was
• 20:57
  amazing. So I end up on a plane. I get there.
• 21:00
  They have like a sign. It's just like Patrick
• 21:02
  O'Sullivan of me. And then I was staying in Calabasas
• 21:08
  at a guest house. Shout out to my friend Joe.
• 21:10
  I was staying in his guest house, Calabasas.
• 21:13
  I had never been to California and I just thought
• 21:15
  this is how everyone in California lived. I was
• 21:18
  in the dopest studio, gated communities, all
• 21:21
  that stuff. But this is what I mean. I did a
• 21:24
  lot of great music out there, and some of it
• 21:27
  came out. If you go to my Spotify, Apple, whatever,
• 21:31
  if you look up Permission to Land, which is the
• 21:33
  one from 2017, that's that album. It's amazing.
• 21:37
  There were songs I wanted to get a horn player,
• 21:39
  and they went and got Mel Scott from the Delfonics,
• 21:42
  plays horns on the thing. We have Uncle Dave,
• 21:45
  who does Bruno Mars, does Silk Sonic. Uncle Dave
• 21:47
  became a really good friend of mine. He played
• 21:49
  on a lot of that album. It's just crazy to go
• 21:52
  out there and, and do a record like that. And
• 21:54
  like, yeah, you know, would I have liked it to,
• 21:56
  to sell a bunch of copies and be a household
• 21:59
  name? Like, sure. But man, most, most people
• 22:02
  would kill just to be in the studio in the days
• 22:05
  that I was. And I got to go on Quicks tour and
• 22:08
  like play some like big shows that you can find
• 22:11
  all that on YouTube. And like, I was like, at
• 22:13
  that point, I was like, I could just die. That's
• 22:15
  fine. All right. That's good. That's good. But
• 22:20
  long story short, I don't know, but long story
• 22:21
  short is that now I live in Connecticut again
• 22:24
  and I still work with all those guys and we do
• 22:26
  it mostly at email. But I just, I just started
• 22:29
  realizing like I'm a small town, Gilmore girls
• 22:33
  town, back to the future town kind of guy. Like
• 22:37
  LA was cool. New York is cool. And I'm there,
• 22:40
  but. I just realized like my heart is in like
• 22:42
  beach towns, New England towns. And like, like
• 22:45
  you said, doing things my way, like setting up
• 22:47
  the same stuff, the same studios, the same gear
• 22:50
  that people have, but being able to do it our
• 22:52
  way and put our stamp on it from what's around
• 22:54
  is fun. So I love being back in Connecticut now.
• 22:57
  I feel like you and I have sort of similar journeys
• 23:00
  because when we were in high school and for myself,
• 23:05
  when I was in college, I was... primarily focused
• 23:10
  on acting. I thought that that was going to be
• 23:11
  my professional path. So when you think that
• 23:13
  you most, I was like most people, I was like,
• 23:16
  all right, I eventually have to land in New York
• 23:19
  or LA. That's where I got my career. And then
• 23:22
  I fell off of. committing to acting professionally
• 23:26
  not too long after college when I graduated with
• 23:29
  a degree in theater and communication. And I
• 23:33
  just fell into radio broadcasting. And that took
• 23:39
  me from Connecticut to... Iowa of all places
• 23:44
  to, um, here in Vermont and then Albany, New
• 23:49
  York for a little while. And then right back
• 23:50
  here to Vermont. And then before you know it,
• 23:54
  I'm in my mid thirties. I'm no longer in the
• 23:57
  radio industry. I've dabbled in acting here in
• 24:01
  Vermont. And I remember I had this opportunity
• 24:04
  to, uh, do a, well, what I thought was a film
• 24:07
  in LA, uh, but it turned out to be, uh, do you
• 24:10
  know like those, those micro the vertical video
• 24:13
  dramas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like
• 24:15
  one, two minute dramas that are catching on right
• 24:17
  now. I didn't even know that was a thing at the
• 24:19
  time. I thought I was like, what's that? You're
• 24:22
  in one of those? I gotta see it. I am. And, and
• 24:25
  don't ask me what it is because I totally, cause
• 24:26
  I, cause I'm an Uber and Lyft driver to pay the
• 24:29
  bills. And, uh, a rider asked me like, Oh, what's
• 24:31
  the name of it? And I'm like, I only know the
• 24:33
  working title. It was called like CEO secret
• 24:35
  agent. Um, is basically it's like this, uh, this,
• 24:39
  the, this CEO and the guy who kind of like owns
• 24:43
  the whole company. They have like this sexual
• 24:45
  tension thing, but like the guy is like a really
• 24:48
  bad sketchy guy to be with, but whatever. It's
• 24:50
  like this. of like, that sort of like hate sexy
• 24:54
  kind of like sexual tension thing. And I play
• 24:58
  a job interviewer and I have this brief scene
• 25:01
  where I'm just kind of like sitting awkwardly
• 25:03
  in between them as they're doing their little
• 25:05
  sexual tension thing for the camera. And when
• 25:10
  I got this opportunity, I was like, all right,
• 25:12
  like I'm in my thirties. I've never set foot
• 25:14
  in LA before. And eight year old me would probably
• 25:18
  like be obsessed by this. So even though I'm
• 25:21
  in a different place in my life right now, being
• 25:23
  here in Vermont and doing my content here. I
• 25:25
  want to go out there and experience that. Um,
• 25:28
  so I did, and it was kind of bizarre cause you
• 25:30
  know, I'm flying from Vermont to LA. It's many
• 25:32
  thousands of miles and they only need me for
• 25:35
  two hours and then I'm done. And then I got to
• 25:38
  travel back. And yeah, it just like, it just
• 25:42
  went by so quickly. And I remember just coming
• 25:45
  back here and thinking like, Oh, that was maybe
• 25:48
  not what I thought it would be like. Cause you
• 25:52
  know, you see LA from afar and you just have
• 25:55
  this like glow in your mind of like, wow, this
• 25:58
  is where TV and movies are made. And, you know,
• 26:00
  and I, and I went on studio tours, the Warner
• 26:03
  Brothers Paramount, like, Whoa, to be able to
• 26:05
  shoot something there, that must be something.
• 26:08
  And then I did it and it's like, Oh, I don't
• 26:10
  really feel different. I feel like the same.
• 26:13
  Yeah. So now I'm coming back here and it just
• 26:15
  gives me better perspective about like where
• 26:17
  I am with my life and accepting that. Oh yeah.
• 26:20
  Like. a New York and LA kind of thing that I
• 26:23
  thought of when I was younger. That's not the
• 26:25
  same value that I hold as a 30 something year
• 26:28
  old guy. And that's okay. So yeah, I just was
• 26:31
  thinking about that as you were talking about
• 26:33
  your experience. It's the same thing where I'm
• 26:33
  like, yeah, I was meeting so many artists that
• 26:36
  I like, I couldn't believe I was like in, like
• 26:39
  in rooms with these people. Like I would be in
• 26:41
  the studio, like TI was there one day. I met
• 26:43
  Nipsey, I met Warren G. And I'm meeting them
• 26:47
  as like a, like a peer where they're like, oh,
• 26:49
  this is class. Like he's in our company, like
• 26:51
  we're doing a record. And this is like, it's
• 26:53
  so wild. And like you said, you think like if
• 26:55
  I get X, Y or Z, then I won't have this little
• 26:59
  like. paying inside. But I think that's being
• 27:03
  an artist. I don't think it ever really goes
• 27:06
  away. I feel like I have so much to contribute.
• 27:09
  And if I didn't sell a billion records, fine.
• 27:13
  So that wasn't something where they were going
• 27:16
  to re -up because we didn't sell a certain amount
• 27:19
  of records. So I'm coming back home. I'm like,
• 27:21
  now I have all these contacts. I learned so much
• 27:24
  stuff. You know what I mean? Like I was able
• 27:27
  to like get a nice place, get some, some music
• 27:30
  gear off it. And it's like, and we just, we,
• 27:32
  we continue, man. We continue. Yeah. Yeah. I
• 27:35
  just, I think the theme of this discussion is
• 27:37
  like you and I being able to set our own terms.
• 27:41
  Um, and, and that's great. I mean, and, and,
• 27:45
  I mean, we're one of many content creators who
• 27:48
  can say the, the, the same thing is just, um,
• 27:52
  yes, there's a lot to be said about like, oh,
• 27:54
  there's so much content, it's saturated and therefore
• 27:56
  it's like harder to, um, get noticed and really
• 27:59
  stand out. But. I think the value of like you
• 28:04
  get to set your own terms. You get to control
• 28:06
  your schedule, your destiny. You get to make
• 28:08
  your own stuff rather than like wait for some
• 28:10
  big shot executive to hand you that opportunity.
• 28:12
  Like I just, I don't know. I find that to be
• 28:14
  a real blessing and a gift. Yeah. Now you just
• 28:19
  need your audience. Like cause of the internet.
• 28:21
  You used to need, there used to only be the outlets
• 28:23
  for like it had to be on MTV or it had to be
• 28:25
  on like Kiss radio or anything. There was only
• 28:29
  a few out, but now you just. need like cult following,
• 28:33
  post your stuff for the people that it's for.
• 28:35
  Like it's amazing. I don't think any of us are
• 28:37
  even getting the same music pitched to us. Like
• 28:40
  it used to be like, this is the top 10 of, and
• 28:44
  everyone was getting pitched to them, like sort
• 28:46
  of from the same like pot or whatever. And now
• 28:48
  like the stuff Spotify is pitching me is I'm
• 28:50
  sure is going to be an entirely different set
• 28:52
  of art. Every single person is going to be different.
• 28:55
  So it's kind of freeing in that way. It is harder
• 28:57
  to stand out. Like you said, like it used to
• 28:59
  be, you know, like I said, when I started 2010's
• 29:03
  rapper, oh my gosh, started like, if you had
• 29:05
  printed stickers, if you had CDs, if you had...
• 29:09
  you know, a van or any of those things you could
• 29:11
  like stand out. People would take you like, whoa,
• 29:15
  like so seriously. And I don't know. Now it's
• 29:17
  just the pipe is so clogged. Like everyone has
• 29:20
  a website. Everyone has an album. Everyone could
• 29:22
  be on the streaming. Streaming services was a
• 29:24
  big thing. Having your stuff be commercially
• 29:27
  released was a big thing. And that pipe is just
• 29:29
  so clogged now with everybody. Yeah. And talking
• 29:34
  about streaming, like what has been your relationship
• 29:37
  with say Spotify and TikTok? I know that TikTok
• 29:40
  has completely changed the music industry in
• 29:43
  the past six years or so. So what's your relationship
• 29:47
  to that? And also with Spotify, because I know
• 29:50
  they've gotten a lot of controversy with how
• 29:53
  little they pay the artists who stream the content
• 29:56
  on there. So talk about that. It's sort of like
• 29:58
  the, I tell artists it is sort of the only circus
• 30:01
  in town. So it's like, if you want to be in the
• 30:03
  circus, unfortunately, that's the tent right
• 30:05
  now. It's about the only circus tent there is.
• 30:08
  So like, yeah, when singles were 99 cents and
• 30:12
  albums were like 8 .99 or 9 .99, I used to make
• 30:15
  a lot more. sort of recoup. I wouldn't say like
• 30:19
  I was buying stuff with it, but it was like,
• 30:21
  you spend thousands to make an album, to make
• 30:23
  like a really well done, like mixed, mastered,
• 30:27
  really musically proficient, excellent album.
• 30:29
  Like you're paying musicians, you're paying the
• 30:32
  engineers, you're paying the whatever, the companies
• 30:34
  to make the graphics, whatever. So like, it was
• 30:36
  easier to make that back and to break even. And
• 30:39
  then you can do another one. Cause like, if,
• 30:42
  You know, I sold a thousand singles on one of
• 30:44
  the records that was on ESPN. So what's that,
• 30:46
  like a thousand bucks? We're not talking about
• 30:48
  huge margins, but that's money that then I can
• 30:50
  go. make the next record or shoot the music video
• 30:54
  or whatever. So with Spotify and TikTok and stuff
• 30:57
  like you don't, it's harder to like just get
• 30:59
  budget back. Cause I would, I'm just putting
• 31:01
  it into the next project, but you're sort of
• 31:03
  like throwing it out there and not expecting
• 31:06
  much of a recoup on that. Like, and TikTok is,
• 31:09
  TikTok is very specific. Like I think it's good
• 31:11
  that they are so music based, but it makes people
• 31:14
  make their songs shorter. When you're in the
• 31:17
  studio now, people are like, two minutes, great.
• 31:19
  Two and a half minutes, cool. Or they'll be like,
• 31:21
  why would you put a third verse on? Yeah, I remember.
• 31:29
  So I worked in music centered commercial radio
• 31:32
  for eight years. And I just remember the nightmare
• 31:36
  that program directors had to go through scheduling
• 31:38
  music. And, you know, recently because of how
• 31:41
  like, it's no longer like, oh, you sing at a
• 31:44
  club or a bar and then you get discovered and
• 31:46
  boom, you make a record. Like now you could produce
• 31:48
  a song in your house, put it out there on TikTok.
• 31:51
  And then all of a sudden, boom, the industry
• 31:52
  comes to you. And like you said, I mean, attention
• 31:55
  spans are shorter songs, many songs. there are
• 31:58
  a minute and a half to two minutes. So you can
• 32:00
  imagine all these radio station program directors,
• 32:02
  they got to like schedule music 24 seven. And
• 32:05
  you got to have like, I don't know, two, two
• 32:09
  million, what seems like 2002 million, two minute
• 32:12
  songs to fill out your day as opposed to like,
• 32:14
  oh yeah, here's like a two minute song here,
• 32:16
  a four minute song there, five minute song here.
• 32:18
  And you know, so I know for program directors,
• 32:20
  it's just been like, oh my God, songs are too
• 32:22
  short. And now I have like, 10 hours of music
• 32:25
  left to fill. And I used to pitch like, I used
• 32:28
  to really pitch more for radio. Like radio was
• 32:31
  still such a big, like, and I mean, it still
• 32:33
  is, but I just think nowadays you don't need
• 32:35
  the like standard mainstream. Like a lot of the
• 32:38
  artists that I like that I'm listening to every
• 32:40
  day are cult, super cult following. You know
• 32:42
  what I mean? Like, and they're not making music
• 32:44
  that's built on purpose to be commercial. Like
• 32:48
  that it's, it's less, it's less of a must now.
• 32:52
  Which is nice. What is the delicious meal you've
• 32:56
  had lately? You know what I had that I had not
• 32:58
  had before. I was very interested and I drove
• 33:00
  to Manchester to this place called Public House,
• 33:03
  downtown Manchester, Connecticut, because I wanted
• 33:05
  to have a real English fish and chips. Have you
• 33:09
  ever had fish and chips? You are the third or
• 33:11
  fourth guest on my podcast that has said fish
• 33:13
  and chips. Now I don't feel very original. No,
• 33:17
  no, no, you're good. No, no, you are the first
• 33:19
  American to say fish and chips because, uh, fishing
• 33:22
  chips, as you know, that's like a UK staple.
• 33:25
  Um, so now I want to know, like, so have you
• 33:30
  tasted fish and chips in the UK and America or
• 33:32
  just America? I have been to Europe like a lot,
• 33:35
  but I hadn't ordered it. It wasn't something
• 33:37
  I'd ever ordered. And like you hear on, if you
• 33:40
  watch like BBC shows and stuff, they're always
• 33:42
  like, oh, go get a fish and chips. And it's like,
• 33:44
  so I wanted to know like, what are they having?
• 33:47
  And it's a huge fish, like huge size fish that's
• 33:50
  all like breaded and fried over or whatever.
• 33:53
  And it's just, you cut it, it's very soft. And
• 33:56
  then it's like potato chips that are super fried.
• 33:59
  So fish and chips. It's like, I thought it was
• 34:02
  going to be French fries or something, but no,
• 34:04
  it's like really fried potato chips, but it was
• 34:06
  cool. So shout out to Public House in Manchester,
• 34:09
  because it's authentic. The whole, that's like
• 34:11
  a British themed bar, which I just thought was
• 34:13
  fun. Was that your first fish and chips experience
• 34:15
  or have you had many before? Yes. That was my
• 34:16
  first one ever. Like when I went to, I was in,
• 34:19
  I've gotten to go to England. I've gotten to
• 34:20
  go to Scotland. I got to go to Ireland and like.
• 34:22
  I tried other, other things like blood sausage
• 34:26
  and like these other weird kind of things they
• 34:28
  eat there. But yeah, no, I haven't had official
• 34:31
  fish chips. So that was nice. So you say blood
• 34:33
  sausage and I'm thinking of a sausage that is
• 34:35
  like barely cooked and you can see the blood
• 34:38
  squeezing out. It's more like burnt. It's like
• 34:41
  super burnt out. Like brown. Yeah. Gross. So
• 34:47
  wait, wait, why did they call it blood sausage?
• 34:48
  What about it is bloody? I don't remember, but
• 34:50
  when I was in Ireland this last time, I ordered
• 34:54
  like the traditional Irish breakfast and that's
• 34:57
  in it. And it was nothing that I had ever had.
• 35:01
  Like their traditional thing was nothing I'd
• 35:03
  ever had before. It was crazy. Yeah. How does
• 35:05
  a blood sausage taste compared to like a, I don't
• 35:07
  know, a more regular sausage? It didn't have
• 35:11
  a lot. Once you're eating it, it's all breakfast.
• 35:13
  So I'll just taste it normal. You know what I
• 35:14
  mean? But it looks crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So what
• 35:18
  is in an Irish breakfast? See, now I'm trying
• 35:20
  to remember. I was in Dublin like last summer
• 35:23
  and I tried it. I'm trying to remember, but you
• 35:25
  have to go look it up. But it's definitely, it
• 35:27
  was a bunch of wild stuff. Yeah. It wasn't bad
• 35:29
  though. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me look it up right
• 35:31
  now actually while I'm here. What is in an Irish
• 35:36
  breakfast? A traditional Irish breakfast often
• 35:43
  called a full Irish breakfast or Irish fry up
• 35:46
  is a hearty protein rich meal designed to give
• 35:48
  the day's energy, blah, blah, blah. But it's
• 35:50
  consisted of bacon, sausages, black pudding,
• 35:53
  white pudding, eggs, baked beans, tomatoes, potatoes,
• 35:57
  mushrooms, soda bread or toast. That is a full
• 36:00
  breakfast. Does that accurately describe what
• 36:02
  you had? Yeah, it was all that. Definitely. And
• 36:05
  the soda bread is cool. It's very dry, but it
• 36:08
  has a cool like cool vibe to it. And it's it's
• 36:11
  different over there. Like you you don't tip
• 36:13
  for drinks. There's like it's just a whole different
• 36:15
  vibe. Yeah, yeah Do Ireland or Europe? Yeah,
• 36:20
  all that kind of stuff. No, no, no I've been
• 36:22
  telling my wife until the day is long that we
• 36:25
  need to go on a European cruise But we have no
• 36:28
  money for it. So it's just been a dream in our
• 36:30
  head specifically Italy I really want to go to
• 36:32
  Italy, but what brought you out to Ireland? I
• 36:35
  found out that I had an aunt that I love that
• 36:38
  passed away, and she had been doing a lot of
• 36:42
  genealogy research on where we were from. And
• 36:46
  so I ended up the little bit of the bequeathment
• 36:50
  that I got when she passed away. I was like,
• 36:53
  I'm going to go. Dude, look at what she was researching.
• 36:56
  And so I went to Ireland and like, yeah, found
• 36:58
  a castle that is an O'Sullivan castle. So there's
• 37:02
  a lot of O'Sullivans, but somewhere in the 1500s
• 37:04
  or whatever, it all started there. And like,
• 37:07
  so the guy in the castle, when I got to the museum
• 37:09
  thing, the painting, the guy looked just like
• 37:12
  me. It was so sick. Exactly like me. Same like
• 37:15
  T -zone, long nose, eyes. I was like, man. Like
• 37:19
  it was just so everywhere I was going out there,
• 37:21
  I was just trying to like find like, uh, yeah,
• 37:23
  the, the genealogy of it all. Yeah. Now geographically,
• 37:28
  like when you're going through the, the UK, is
• 37:31
  it like you're in Ireland and then you could
• 37:33
  like easily hop on a train and get to Scotland
• 37:35
  and England, or is it more spread out? It was
• 37:38
  when I was in, I know like England to everywhere
• 37:41
  else, there's trains and stuff. Like it didn't,
• 37:43
  I took a train from England to Scotland, but
• 37:46
  I think Ireland was like, is more of a was like
• 37:49
  an island, but there's ferries and stuff. I would
• 37:52
  love to do France. I didn't do France yet. Yeah,
• 37:54
  that would be awesome. Yeah. I'd love to do Italy.
• 37:56
  Have you met French assholes? Because for some
• 37:59
  reason that is a stereotype. I've never heard
• 38:02
  that. I haven't yet. Yeah. Cause yeah, cause
• 38:04
  we're in Vermont and that's pretty close to Canada.
• 38:07
  And, um, it's interesting Vermonters, like their
• 38:11
  perception of Canadians is not the, uh, perception
• 38:14
  that maybe someone like us from Connecticut might
• 38:17
  have of Canadians or much other parts of the
• 38:19
  country. Cause I thought of a Canadian as like,
• 38:21
  Oh yeah, they're, they're super nice. And, you
• 38:24
  know, Oh, Hey, Like they're, they're that kind
• 38:25
  of Canadian, but I guess that's that Canadian.
• 38:28
  And then there's the French Canadian where my
• 38:30
  wife, Tony, who's from here in Vermont, she'll
• 38:32
  talk days and days about, Oh my God, they're
• 38:34
  such rude assholes. So I don't even know if you
• 38:37
  got up there yet. I want to do that. I haven't
• 38:39
  got to Canada yet. Oh yeah. Yeah. We're like,
• 38:41
  we're literally only two miles from Canada here
• 38:44
  in Richford, Vermont. So yeah, we've been to
• 38:46
  Montreal a bunch of times. Um, but no, I I'm
• 38:49
  thinking of like the other day when I was a Lyft
• 38:52
  driving and. I got a message from this person
• 38:56
  that I was on the way to pick up and he was like,
• 38:58
  Hey, Jonathan, how quickly can you get here?
• 39:01
  And it's the kind of question where it's like,
• 39:04
  all right, dude, you have an app that tells you.
• 39:07
  When I'm gonna be there, I cannot rush cars in
• 39:10
  front of me. I cannot rush traffic lights Like
• 39:13
  I almost want to be snarky in my response Yeah,
• 39:16
  but then you know, he came into my car and he
• 39:18
  had what sounded like a French accent and I was
• 39:20
  like, oh, okay. Well That may clock you might
• 39:24
  be one of those French asshole and then oh my
• 39:26
  god When when me and my wife were in New York
• 39:28
  City, we were going to this bar called don't
• 39:31
  tell mama Have you been to don't tell mama? No,
• 39:33
  I've heard of it. Oh, yeah. I've heard of it.
• 39:35
  Fantastic piano karaoke bar great but we were
• 39:38
  sitting like really close to these people speaking
• 39:40
  French and I don't know maybe my wife Tony knows
• 39:44
  French and she hasn't told me but they were speaking
• 39:47
  French and they were gossiping in a certain way
• 39:50
  and Tony was just like they're talking shit about
• 39:53
  us and i don't like that because they're not
• 39:55
  speaking our native language and i can't understand
• 39:57
  what they're saying and they think they could
• 39:58
  do you know be all low -key like that so i don't
• 40:01
  know i mean obviously not all french people are
• 40:03
  assholes but like i just wonder if you ever uh
• 40:06
  encountered any of that or just not yeah but
• 40:09
  i i'm curious to go to canada is one one spot
• 40:12
  i haven't done yet really i'm curious yeah when
• 40:15
  i was a kid I got in a little trouble when I
• 40:20
  was a kid for some driving stuff when I was like
• 40:22
  19. And in Canada, their border is very strict.
• 40:26
  And so I was told I could not get in for a few
• 40:30
  years. Really? Yeah. Interesting. Cause I, huh.
• 40:36
  Yeah. Cause we like to go from US to Canada through
• 40:40
  the border, very easy. Obviously to go from Canada
• 40:42
  back. through the US, like it's, it's, it's harder
• 40:45
  nowadays with, with all the political shit, but,
• 40:48
  huh. Okay. But I don't know. Maybe the, you're
• 40:50
  saying you were 19 at the time and now you're
• 40:51
  in your 30s. That's all in my music. Yeah. If
• 40:53
  you listen to my music or if you watch the movie
• 40:54
  we wrote, that's all in there, but yeah, like
• 40:56
  I'm in recovery from alcohol for man, 13 years
• 41:00
  now, but yeah, like, so before that, I definitely
• 41:03
  like plenty of plenty of little dumb dumb. crimes,
• 41:06
  like nothing too major, but when you drive into
• 41:08
  Canada, I guess they, their border was very strict.
• 41:11
  So I was told that when I was a kid, we had to
• 41:14
  reroute a tour because they didn't think they
• 41:16
  were going to let me in. We had done like Rhode
• 41:22
  Island, New York, Vermont, da da da. We were
• 41:24
  going up that way. And the, all I know is the
• 41:27
  people involved were like, no, they're not going
• 41:29
  to let clock in. We got to reroute this tour.
• 41:32
  Yeah. Cause even from Connecticut, it's like
• 41:34
  easy. It was it's only still a few hours to Canada
• 41:37
  because I remember when I was a kid yeah Yeah,
• 41:39
  I mean my family went to Niagara Falls, and we
• 41:41
  just drove there So I'm surprised because Montreal
• 41:44
  I feel like Montreal would be a really good scene
• 41:46
  for you in your music I know I'm curious that
• 41:49
  I also I love the Canadian TV shows like I watch
• 41:52
  a lot of the like CBC shows Yes. Um, I don't
• 41:57
  know for sure if Schitt's Creek specifically
• 42:00
  came from the CBC, but I know it's a Canadian
• 42:02
  show that really got big when it was on Netflix.
• 42:06
  But, um, yeah, no, um, Schitt's Creek and then
• 42:10
  family law. You ever see family law? No, I have
• 42:13
  not. No, no, no. What's that one about? That's
• 42:15
  a good Canadian show. It's called Family Law.
• 42:19
  Oh, there's a few. There's a few good ones up
• 42:21
  there. Oh, there's one called Surreal Estate,
• 42:23
  where it's like ghosts and real estate agents
• 42:26
  and stuff. There's a lot in Canadian shows that
• 42:29
  I end up watching. Well, that blends into our
• 42:33
  next question here. What is a delicious piece
• 42:35
  of pop culture you've been loving? It could be
• 42:37
  like a TV show, movie, book, podcast, music,
• 42:39
  play. Like, what are you watching? And I think
• 42:44
  it feeds into what we're talking about about
• 42:46
  how trends and about how sometimes you feel like
• 42:48
  you're you're not number one or you are number
• 42:51
  one and it goes up and down. I've been loving
• 42:54
  the comeback with Lisa Kudrow. I loved that show.
• 42:58
  I literally just finished it not too long ago.
• 43:00
  Did you finish it? Yes. And I then I started
• 43:03
  immediately kind of started it over because it
• 43:06
  was just so by it. Tell me about your journey
• 43:09
  with that because I remember years ago hearing
• 43:12
  about the show and... my limited perception of
• 43:17
  it was like, oh, okay, so Lisa Kudrow did this
• 43:19
  show for HBO, like not too long after Friends.
• 43:22
  And it seems like it's semi -autobiographical.
• 43:25
  It's like, oh, this former big sitcom actress
• 43:27
  trying to go back into relevancy, Valerie Cherish.
• 43:32
  So it's one of those shows that I heard about
• 43:33
  and then didn't hear about for a while. And then
• 43:37
  like, once they started promoting like, oh, this
• 43:38
  is the third and final season of the comeback.
• 43:40
  I was like, all right, let me... go into it.
• 43:43
  And first of all, I was totally surprised to
• 43:47
  find the big time lapses in between seasons.
• 43:49
  The first season was 2005. The second season
• 43:52
  wasn't until 2014, because I believe the show
• 43:54
  was originally canceled after the first season,
• 43:56
  right? Yeah. And do you know what, uh, so what,
• 43:59
  like what, there was like a cult following of
• 44:02
  this show that eventually led HBO to be like,
• 44:04
  Hey, let's bring it back for season two. I know
• 44:06
  they said in the documentary at the end of it,
• 44:08
  at the finale, that HBO decided to years later
• 44:12
  to bring it back. I'd like, I should research
• 44:14
  why. And then 10 years after that was this new
• 44:17
  season. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like 12
• 44:19
  years after that, like this year they came out
• 44:21
  with the final season. Um, but yeah, no, it's,
• 44:24
  uh, it's such a brilliant, um, mockumentary style
• 44:27
  comedy. It may, maybe it came out like shortly
• 44:30
  before the American version of the office hit
• 44:32
  big, but, um, yeah, just seeing Lisa Kudrow as
• 44:35
  like this has been 90 sitcom actress who tries
• 44:38
  to regain relevancy, uh, at the time. 2005 it
• 44:42
  was she I guess it was filming her own reality
• 44:45
  show The Comeback when reality TV was really
• 44:47
  booming in the mid 2000s and I love how like
• 44:51
  the show keeps up with like basically our culture
• 44:54
  and what's trending because I think in 2014 it
• 44:57
  was the the the prestige TV cable era yeah right
• 45:02
  yeah yeah they were referencing like girls and
• 45:05
  this was the era of Mad Men and Breaking Bad
• 45:07
  like oh if you want to watch prestige TV you
• 45:09
  go to like AMC in HBO. So I think Lisa Kudrow
• 45:13
  in the second season was like Valerie was doing
• 45:15
  what? She was doing like a dramatic representation
• 45:17
  of Valerie. Yeah. And it's like season two is
• 45:22
  like, yeah, the show is super dark. It's like
• 45:24
  a drug type show or something. Yeah. Seeing that.
• 45:27
  And then the third and final season, you know,
• 45:30
  Probably depressing, but it deals with what we're
• 45:32
  dealing with in terms of AI, like AI and how
• 45:35
  it's taking people's jobs, how it's replacing
• 45:37
  a lot of writers rooms. So they deal with that.
• 45:41
  Um, and, uh, yeah, just, just tell me everything,
• 45:45
  everything that you're thinking and feeling about
• 45:46
  this show, episodes that stood out to you. I
• 45:49
  just identified with it so much. And I had seen
• 45:52
  the first two seasons, like I guess whenever
• 45:54
  they were on, but this just, this new season
• 45:56
  just hit me at the right time where it's everything
• 45:58
  we're talking about. Like you can have the best
• 46:00
  intentions and just kind of go into stuff to
• 46:03
  be creative. And sometimes like the world doesn't
• 46:06
  have a place for you or. You're not being utilized
• 46:09
  by the universe and you know, you can want so
• 46:12
  bad to like just find a hit again. And I think
• 46:15
  Valerie just wants to find a hit so bad. And
• 46:19
  this season is like, well, what does that cost
• 46:22
  you? And because for her to top line this show
• 46:25
  this season, there's a lot of things that, you
• 46:28
  know what I mean? There's a lot of costs in that
• 46:30
  obviously, cause it's written by... AI and there's
• 46:33
  all types of problems. And for her to have to
• 46:35
  sit there and decide like, this would be good
• 46:38
  for me, but it would be bad for so many other
• 46:41
  reasons. That's just such an interesting character.
• 46:44
  You know what I mean? To have to decide in that.
• 46:46
  It was beautiful. And I just love how she makes
• 46:49
  lemonade out of the terrible stuff they throw
• 46:52
  at her. No matter what show she's on, she tries
• 46:54
  to make lemonade out of it. I just, I couldn't
• 46:56
  relate more to it as a, as a creative in the
• 46:59
  business. Yeah. I mean, God, there's so much
• 47:01
  to say about Lisa Kudrow's brilliant comic timing.
• 47:04
  Um, and she has like that specific way of talking
• 47:08
  and mannerisms that you know and love from friends.
• 47:12
  Um, and it's hard to imitate. I can't do it.
• 47:16
  Can you do it? Well, Mallory, you know. And I
• 47:22
  don't, I'm not even really big on friends. I
• 47:25
  certainly, if friends was on, that's cool, but
• 47:27
  it's not, that's not even the one that, dude,
• 47:29
  it's Valerie Cherish. I'm just like, I think
• 47:31
  all day whenever like something rough is happening
• 47:34
  to me in the entertainment business or like they
• 47:36
  pick somebody else for something and they don't
• 47:38
  pick you at the audition or ever like. Those
• 47:41
  are the feelings that that Valerie show is there
• 47:43
  for. And I just think about Valerie, man. It's
• 47:45
  amazing. The underdog, the underdog. Well, like
• 47:48
  a former big star, as we mentioned that goes
• 47:52
  down to underdog and just has a lot of setbacks
• 47:54
  along the way, but just keeps chugging along,
• 47:57
  keeps chugging along. Yeah. I mean, um. And you
• 48:01
  watched it like, what, two or three times? So
• 48:03
  you know how it ends, right? Yeah. So I watched,
• 48:05
  I just jumped in and I had seen season one and
• 48:07
  two. So now I just watched three when it was
• 48:09
  on HBO. And now I just started over cause I wanted
• 48:12
  to, now I want to soak it up. It's been 10 years
• 48:14
  or 15 years since I saw the first season. So
• 48:16
  now I started to all the way over it. I'm soaking
• 48:18
  it up and like, yeah. In between the comedy,
• 48:21
  there is so much stuff about society and like
• 48:24
  what we choose to like champion. You know what
• 48:26
  I mean? We want to see people like be messy and
• 48:29
  lose their minds. And like, we kind of want blood
• 48:32
  and we want drama. And what does that mean for
• 48:35
  us, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And especially the
• 48:37
  second season when Valerie agrees to participate
• 48:41
  in a very dramatic. interpretation of herself.
• 48:47
  I'm just thinking about that scene where Pauly
• 48:49
  G, of course, her writer producer that clearly
• 48:53
  doesn't like Valerie in the first season and
• 48:56
  second season, but I think they kind of grow
• 48:57
  to love each other in the third season when Valerie
• 48:59
  enlists his help for her sitcom that she's making
• 49:04
  for the streaming service that is just saying,
• 49:06
  hey, fuck it, we're going to use AI. Her and
• 49:09
  Pauly are like kind of endearing now. But I remember
• 49:11
  in season two when I think Valerie had to like
• 49:15
  simulate a blowjob. in that dramatic interpretation
• 49:19
  scene and her clearly being very uncomfortable
• 49:25
  with it, but finding a way to work around it
• 49:29
  because at the end of the day, what does she
• 49:31
  want? She wants validity. She wants relevancy.
• 49:33
  She wants to be noticed. She wants to be beloved
• 49:35
  and respected. And she gets that because I think
• 49:39
  at the end of the second season, she gets the
• 49:41
  Emmy, right? The Emmy for that dramatic show.
• 49:45
  Um, but like she realizes like, okay, yeah, this
• 49:50
  could feel good, but at the end of the day, it
• 49:52
  doesn't really matter. What matters more is like
• 49:54
  the relationships you have with people, real
• 49:56
  life, love, companionship, because I believe
• 49:59
  her, uh, her assistant Mickey was going through
• 50:02
  some health issues. He had to be in the hospital
• 50:04
  and he couldn't be at the award ceremony where
• 50:05
  Valerie won the Emmy. So she decided, I don't
• 50:08
  even think she accepted her Emmy. She like went
• 50:10
  to the hospital. Yeah. And watched it on TV.
• 50:14
  Yeah, she went to the hospital to, uh, to, to
• 50:17
  go be with Mickey and, and watch her win the
• 50:19
  Emmy on TV. So it's like this interesting thing
• 50:21
  of like season one, Valerie, very artificial,
• 50:24
  like very just, I want to be famous again. I
• 50:26
  want to be famous again, but season two is where
• 50:28
  you start. Oh, okay. There's a humanity there.
• 50:31
  She, she has a soul. She realizes value in her
• 50:34
  relationships to real people outside of the show
• 50:37
  business. Um, she has dignity, even when people
• 50:41
  shovel crap at her and treat her bad. Like I
• 50:43
  love how. And she's done it a few times, but
• 50:45
  I love in the new season. She knows everyone's
• 50:48
  name on the crew. She remembers everyone's name
• 50:51
  and she like, she just has dignity even in the
• 50:54
  face of like being underestimated or being treated
• 50:57
  crappy. And it's like, I just, man, let me tell
• 51:00
  you, like one time I was, when I was in LA and
• 51:02
  the big album was coming out, they had me on
• 51:04
  Eminem's radio show. I was on shape 45 on XM.
• 51:07
  Eminem wasn't there. It was whoever was on, but
• 51:09
  it was Eminem's radio show. They called me the
• 51:11
  night before. I'm going to premiere my single,
• 51:13
  take calls. I'm excited. And they're like, okay,
• 51:16
  the format of this show, it's like you have to
• 51:18
  argue with the callers. You have to be... I mean,
• 51:21
  if somebody calls and says they don't like your
• 51:23
  record, you can't just take it. You have to like
• 51:24
  fight them. And like, you've been talking to
• 51:26
  me for hours. That's not my personality. Like,
• 51:29
  there probably are people that could just like
• 51:31
  sort of be aggressive and like argue with callers.
• 51:34
  That's just not me. And I had to go and I...
• 51:36
  And I got on the radio and I kind of did that
• 51:39
  for a little while and like just did my best
• 51:41
  to be like, whatever, to be a devil's advocate
• 51:44
  to all the callers, you know? And I got off and
• 51:46
  I'm like, what's the point of doing that if that's
• 51:49
  not who Clockwise is? That's not what I'm telling
• 51:52
  you the rest of the time. And like, I feel like
• 51:55
  that was in my twenties for that. And I feel
• 51:56
  like I would do that differently now. And Valerie
• 51:59
  is who I think about. I think I would find some
• 52:01
  way to like make lemonade out of that and not
• 52:03
  just do what the industry told me to do. Right
• 52:06
  Yeah, yeah, like you take the third season where
• 52:10
  I think initially she kind of goes skeptic skeptically
• 52:13
  but she does go along with the AI of it all with
• 52:16
  this streaming company that wants to have this
• 52:18
  all AI writers room and Okay. Like it's doing
• 52:23
  numbers. It has a second season. There's, there's
• 52:25
  that artifice of like, all right, here's the
• 52:27
  thing that's successful now. Uh, but you can
• 52:30
  see the cracks showing in Valerie. You can see
• 52:32
  those facial expressions, like how it just doesn't
• 52:34
  sit right with her that writer's jobs are being
• 52:36
  taken away. Um, and also like, you can tell from
• 52:39
  the quality of the writing because like it's,
• 52:42
  you know, AI is pitching you like 80 ,000 jokes
• 52:46
  at the same time. When, you know, we see the,
• 52:50
  the, the takes. in between the scenes of Valerie
• 52:52
  shooting the sitcom and they got to figure out
• 52:54
  what joke would be better for the studio audience
• 52:56
  to laugh at since they weren't laughing at the
• 52:57
  previous joke. And yeah, it was just a different
• 53:02
  vibe of like, let's like find something through
• 53:05
  this computer as opposed to let's have a human
• 53:08
  writer like Apology, like that nerdy kid who
• 53:13
  I think was an aspiring writer who could even
• 53:15
  do a joke that could authentically make the audience
• 53:17
  laugh because there's a human experience, a human
• 53:20
  quality. to it that, that AI just can't do. Um,
• 53:24
  and, uh, oh yeah, Bradley Whitford's character,
• 53:27
  Bradley Whitford's character who was like this
• 53:28
  sort of like old school. Put pressure on her
• 53:31
  and there's a lot with that. Cause yeah, dude,
• 53:34
  she has, she has everything that she's ever wanted,
• 53:37
  but it's going to cost her everything, like it's
• 53:39
  going to cost her the world. You know what I
• 53:41
  mean? It's like, that's hard. Yeah. Cause she
• 53:45
  knows it's not right. She knows it's not the
• 53:47
  right thing to do. That's hard. Did you expect
• 53:51
  things to turn out the way it did with the Bradley
• 53:53
  Whitford character? Because I think he was like
• 53:55
  a, I mean, he was a, you know, writer, producer.
• 53:58
  He like, I think he was a well -known showrunner
• 53:59
  and he believed in like the value of like a human
• 54:02
  writer's room. I thought they were going to punish
• 54:04
  her. That little cabal of, you know, big tea.
• 54:07
  I thought they were going to punish her more.
• 54:09
  He ends up putting her on a show, right? He ends
• 54:10
  up putting her on... Yeah. How about that for
• 54:14
  an ending? Because... He pressures Valerie to
• 54:17
  go to the streaming boss to say no to AI. And
• 54:23
  I believe she does take a stand. But I think
• 54:29
  Bradley Riffer's character sees Valerie acting
• 54:31
  in a scene in this AI show and sees a value in
• 54:35
  her talent. The AI show, I believe, doesn't work
• 54:40
  out. And we get this moment with Valerie and
• 54:42
  her husband where it seems like her future is
• 54:44
  undecided and it looks bleak. But then she gets
• 54:47
  a call or a note or whatever for Bradley Whitford's
• 54:49
  character, like, hey, I want you for my show.
• 54:51
  I think you would be perfect. And so there's
• 54:53
  that happy ending. I mean, Valerie gets a chance
• 54:55
  at relevancy again, and it's created by human
• 54:58
  rather than AI. So, yeah, yeah. I was happy they
• 55:01
  let her have a happy ending because they always
• 55:03
  ride that line of the... Which the office does
• 55:06
  too or whatever. They ride that line of like,
• 55:08
  is it cringe? Like, you know, sometimes they
• 55:11
  have these things happen that are so humiliating
• 55:13
  to the characters. So I was happy that they let
• 55:15
  Valerie like go out in a good way and have a
• 55:18
  win. That's what we all want for her, you know?
• 55:20
  And like, I just couldn't relate more to like,
• 55:22
  she has to go in every season no matter what
• 55:24
  crap she has to work with. She has to roll her
• 55:28
  sleeves up and make it. better and make it awesome
• 55:31
  you know and I just I relate to that every project
• 55:34
  you do as an artist you have to go in and like
• 55:36
  care and like roll your sleeves up. What do you
• 55:38
  think about how they handled Mickey and because
• 55:40
  the actor in real life did die I believe in between
• 55:43
  seasons two and three what do you think about
• 55:45
  how they handled that because um It's bizarre,
• 55:49
  like we see, I think it was season two, Mickey
• 55:52
  in the hospital bed, and then 12 years goes by,
• 55:56
  the actor dies. And there's an emotional moment
• 55:59
  in one of the season three episodes, I believe,
• 56:01
  where Valerie has that moment on top of the studio
• 56:03
  building and she's playing with these ashes.
• 56:06
  What did you think about that moment? It was
• 56:07
  beautiful. I actually liked the person. You're
• 56:09
  in a hard boat with that because Mickey was part
• 56:12
  of the... the rhythm of the show. And I actually
• 56:16
  liked the person they brought in to sort of that
• 56:20
  was sort of the Mickey like, yeah, please hold
• 56:22
  her. And I thought they were really, I thought
• 56:24
  they were a riot. I loved it. I loved the scene
• 56:26
  too, where she's with the costume person and
• 56:29
  the costume person is trying to dress her in
• 56:31
  like just terrible stuff. Oh man, I just love
• 56:35
  that scene. It's like, it's such a hard thing
• 56:37
  to, and I'm sure as a woman, there's things about
• 56:39
  that that are even harder where it's such a hard
• 56:41
  thing to like advocate for yourself and trust
• 56:44
  your view of something and then also like want
• 56:47
  to be easy to work with and not be a stick in
• 56:49
  the mud. And like, that's such a hard balance.
• 56:51
  And there's times in my career where I'm like,
• 56:53
  the only things I ever regret are not trusting
• 56:56
  myself or not listening to myself. You know what
• 56:59
  I mean? It's what other people talk you into
• 57:00
  stuff. Season three, Valerie seemed to trust
• 57:05
  herself and push back a lot more than seasons
• 57:07
  one and two, Valerie, because I remember there
• 57:08
  were a lot of times in seasons one and two where
• 57:10
  she would just go along with something where
• 57:12
  you could clearly tell she's doing it through
• 57:15
  gritted teeth. But season three, like that costume
• 57:17
  designer moment, I was just watching. I was like,
• 57:19
  wow, Valerie is really standing up for herself
• 57:22
  in a way that I haven't really ever seen before.
• 57:25
  And it's really interesting to see because she
• 57:27
  was really getting snarky and argumentive with
• 57:29
  that guy and good for her. I mean, good for her
• 57:32
  standing up for herself. It was amazing. And
• 57:33
  when her, what's her name? Jane says, you got
• 57:36
  yourself that Emmy. Cause she's saying, oh, Polly
• 57:38
  J got me the Emmy. She says, no, you got you
• 57:41
  that Emmy. And I, when I, I think about that
• 57:43
  all the time, I really loved that show this year.
• 57:45
  Cause I think about that in my head. I go like,
• 57:47
  no, you got yourself this far or whatever. And
• 57:50
  it's such a nice mantra. Yeah, I don't know if
• 57:53
  you got a chance to check out Wayne Brady's appearance
• 57:56
  on ego Notums podcast. Oh, I love both of them.
• 58:01
  I have to watch it. Yeah, but The beginning of
• 58:05
  that episode always really hits a chord with
• 58:08
  me because, uh, Ego is doing the usual podcast
• 58:10
  hosting of reading off the guest credits. And
• 58:13
  she had mentioned that like, oh yeah, like, you
• 58:16
  know, uh, he was a part of the show who's line
• 58:18
  is it anyway, you know, great improv show that
• 58:21
  won an Emmy and Wayne cuts in and she's like,
• 58:23
  Oh, no, excuse me. No, no, the show didn't win
• 58:25
  an Emmy. I won an Emmy. And he took that opportunity
• 58:28
  to say how much he's changed from like being
• 58:31
  this overly humble, like, oh, I want to be teamwork
• 58:35
  and not seem arrogant and self -centered to,
• 58:38
  no, like, if I want something, if I accomplish
• 58:42
  something, I'm going to sit with that. I'm going
• 58:45
  to accept that. I'm going to put value in myself
• 58:48
  and be more confident and straightforward as
• 58:50
  an artist, because that's just a healthier way
• 58:53
  to go in life. So, yeah. So that's just a random
• 58:56
  thought that I had when you had mentioned. We
• 58:58
  were talking about that before, where it's like
• 59:00
  you rarely get food as an artist. You rarely
• 59:03
  get food that like goes in and sticks in you.
• 59:07
  You know what I mean? Like 10 people can tell
• 59:09
  you after the show that they thought you were
• 59:11
  awesome and you're going to remember the one
• 59:13
  person that like said some weird thing to you
• 59:15
  or hated it or whatever. You know what I mean?
• 59:17
  And it's, it's just so hard to like let your,
• 59:19
  as an artist to not be critical and to let yourself
• 59:21
  like absorb the good food too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 59:25
  So really absorbing what you've accomplished,
• 59:28
  absorbing compliments, that is definitely important
• 59:31
  because it is a very insecure profession. It
• 59:33
  is a very, very, very... Killing for yourself.
• 59:36
  And I think that's why, you know, I mean, that's
• 59:38
  why I was telling you about this whole crazy
• 59:40
  movie thing that I did instead of an album this
• 59:41
  year, because it's like, I know that I feel I
• 59:45
  have a lot to offer. I feel I can do this. I
• 59:47
  feel like I can contribute. And I was going around,
• 59:51
  I went to all the... I know a lot of directors.
• 59:54
  I've been in the game for a long time. Like I
• 59:56
  know a lot of people, movie people, all types
• 59:58
  of people. And I went around to everyone. I'm
• 59:59
  like, hey, I'll play a henchman. I'll play the
• 1:00:01
  evil boss. I'll play the bad boys. Like, I don't
• 1:00:04
  care. I'll play any, I'll play the doorman. And
• 1:00:08
  everybody kept saying, I just can't see you in
• 1:00:10
  what I'm working on. I just don't have a spot
• 1:00:13
  for you in this. And I was like, well, I might
• 1:00:16
  have to make it so that they can see it. Like,
• 1:00:19
  you know what I mean? I see something that like,
• 1:00:21
  I think I'm capable of and like, I might have
• 1:00:23
  to make that for other people to see it. And
• 1:00:25
  like, that's been amazing. Cause like, we had,
• 1:00:28
  we did the whole thing. I did like, had to do
• 1:00:30
  SAG fees, had to do, you know, get insurance.
• 1:00:33
  I worked, like I said, Ryan that I worked with,
• 1:00:34
  everyone I worked with was like the best crew.
• 1:00:36
  But to realize that like, you might have to kickstart
• 1:00:39
  it. It's like, it's such a big thing and I'm
• 1:00:44
  so proud of this. So now I'm, now I'm in editing
• 1:00:46
  on that and. Um, that's going to be a big, everyone's
• 1:00:50
  just going to see, we're going to see what we
• 1:00:52
  think about. I'm so happy for you. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:00:55
  no. And, and that was a, I'm glad that you took
• 1:00:57
  control of that because I know it's easy, like
• 1:00:59
  when you're acting in filmmaking to like, you
• 1:01:01
  know, if, if someone who's established in that
• 1:01:04
  industry tells you they cannot see you for this
• 1:01:05
  thing, I know it's easy to like accept that.
• 1:01:07
  And that was a large part of why. I distanced
• 1:01:10
  myself from acting and now only do it as like
• 1:01:13
  a occasional side thing because I just, uh, did
• 1:01:18
  not like the idea of being told, okay. You can
• 1:01:23
  play this kind of part. You can go for this kind
• 1:01:25
  of role. You can read these kind of plays or
• 1:01:28
  go for this kind of movie. And I just, yeah,
• 1:01:31
  like you, I'm just the kind of person that's
• 1:01:32
  like, no, fuck it. If I want to do something,
• 1:01:34
  if I want to play a certain part, I'm going to
• 1:01:36
  go for it. I'm going to make it happen myself.
• 1:01:38
  So that's, that's really great. You sit there
• 1:01:40
  and you look up the steps, you know, like a massage.
• 1:01:43
  Like my brain is like, I'm always like, well,
• 1:01:45
  how hard can it be? You're my birthday twins
• 1:01:54
  I Forget because there's like there's been a
• 1:01:58
  couple of times on Facebook where I'm like, oh
• 1:01:59
  yeah, like happy birthday birthday, buddy Yeah,
• 1:02:02
  oh my you're right. Oh, no, you're right. My
• 1:02:04
  short -term memory. So terrible. You're so right
• 1:02:06
  Oh my god, so you're that's that's why we're
• 1:02:08
  like this, dude We gotta do another one of these
• 1:02:10
  but yeah, like my brain is like how hard can
• 1:02:13
  it be? If they figured it out, then I'll figure
• 1:02:15
  it out. And sometimes you bite off more than
• 1:02:17
  you can chew. Yeah. And you end up, you know,
• 1:02:20
  but I'm, I'm open for that challenge. Right.
• 1:02:23
  Oh my God. That is fantastic. Yeah. You, me and
• 1:02:26
  Jaleel White from Family Matters. We, we, we
• 1:02:28
  all shared on the 27th. Oh, that's dope, man.
• 1:02:32
  I got to meet, I met Darius, Darius McCurry when
• 1:02:35
  I was out in LA from Family Matters, man. It
• 1:02:37
  was cool. He's a cool guy. Oh, how did you, what,
• 1:02:40
  what was the circumstances? How did you get to
• 1:02:42
  meet him? Yo, I was in a studio. This is where
• 1:02:44
  I would meet, I would just be in these complexes
• 1:02:47
  where the famous people would just be around.
• 1:02:49
  I was in the studio doing my record and I came
• 1:02:52
  out to go to the fridge or something and this
• 1:02:55
  tall, good -looking guy, leather jacket is just
• 1:02:58
  in the lobby. And I didn't remember why I knew
• 1:03:01
  him. And I'm just like, I just tell him, I'm
• 1:03:03
  like, hey, were you here yesterday? Were you
• 1:03:05
  here at the party yesterday or whatever? He's
• 1:03:06
  like, no. I was like, I like that jacket, man.
• 1:03:09
  I went to the fridge. I started walking away.
• 1:03:11
  And I get back down the hallway like this, and
• 1:03:14
  I'm looking back, and then everyone is freaking
• 1:03:15
  out. Like, it's Eddie Winslow! Oh my god, it's
• 1:03:18
  Eddie Winslow! But he loved me, and still follows
• 1:03:22
  me, I think, on Instagram to this day, because
• 1:03:24
  I just was talking to him like a normal person
• 1:03:25
  and didn't know exactly why I knew him. Oh, that's
• 1:03:30
  fantastic. Yeah, no, it's funny you mentioned
• 1:03:32
  that, because there was a period of this... podcast
• 1:03:35
  where me and a former co -host we were doing
• 1:03:37
  family matters recaps of episodes and we were
• 1:03:42
  interviewing many people who have worked on the
• 1:03:44
  show either as like a guest cast or crew. And
• 1:03:48
  there was a point where, you know, Darius McCrary
• 1:03:51
  was, like, liking a bunch of our stuff on Instagram.
• 1:03:54
  So I was like, oh, my God, can we get Darius
• 1:03:56
  as a guest? That would be awesome. Let's get
• 1:03:58
  it, man. I'll help you. Let's get him, bro. I
• 1:04:01
  don't do the Family Matters podcast anymore,
• 1:04:04
  so probably would be pointless at this point.
• 1:04:06
  But, no, the closest that I came to sort of maybe
• 1:04:11
  having a cast member on the podcast, Jaleel White
• 1:04:15
  himself, I went to Wow. Yeah, I traveled to Wilmington
• 1:04:20
  Public Library in Delaware. I think it was like
• 1:04:22
  an eight -hour trip from here in Vermont, because
• 1:04:24
  Julio White was promoting his memoir. And I wanted
• 1:04:27
  to be there as a host of a Family Matters Rewatch
• 1:04:30
  podcast. And I got to talk with him and have
• 1:04:32
  my shirt on and take a picture with him and tell
• 1:04:36
  him to be a guest on the podcast, even though
• 1:04:38
  I knew he wouldn't, because, you know, it's a
• 1:04:39
  little podcast with not much audience. But, yeah,
• 1:04:42
  no, he was cool. He was cool, very conversational.
• 1:04:44
  And I'm glad that Darius McCrary was the same.
• 1:04:46
  way. That's, that's fantastic. Yeah. He was really
• 1:04:49
  cool, man. And it's just, it's just nice when
• 1:04:52
  you meet, there's certain you that you interview
• 1:04:53
  a lot of TV actors and stuff. So, you know, like
• 1:04:56
  there's certain people you meet that like just
• 1:04:58
  are a good experience, you know, and he just
• 1:05:00
  yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just off the top of my
• 1:05:03
  head, uh, people like McKenna grace and Yvette
• 1:05:07
  Nicole Brown, like, yeah, there's been some big
• 1:05:11
  people, man. So I, so it was only because when
• 1:05:15
  I used to work in commercial radio, we would
• 1:05:17
  get these emails that nobody was using from premier
• 1:05:20
  networks, this big radio syndicate. And it was
• 1:05:24
  like, Oh, hey, like, do you want an opportunity
• 1:05:27
  to talk to this, uh, actor or musician or author,
• 1:05:32
  uh, who may be on like, they're, they're probably
• 1:05:35
  like on the B to C level in terms of fame. Like
• 1:05:38
  you can spend 10 minutes with them and put it
• 1:05:39
  on your radio show. Well, I had a podcast that
• 1:05:42
  I wanted to get the word out there for. And I
• 1:05:44
  thought, oh, what's the easiest way to do it
• 1:05:46
  is to spend 10 minutes with all these, with all
• 1:05:48
  the people. So yeah, no, there was a period of
• 1:05:50
  time where, where I did that. And then, um, after
• 1:05:53
  a while, when I got more into podcasting and
• 1:05:55
  more long form conversation and realized like,
• 1:05:58
  oh, I would rather spend an hour with these people
• 1:06:00
  than 10 minutes with them. Um, yeah, I started
• 1:06:02
  doing less and less of them, but, um, yeah, no,
• 1:06:05
  no, during the time that I did them, I talked
• 1:06:06
  with some fantastic people. So thank you for
• 1:06:08
  recognizing that. Yeah. Yeah. A delicious thing
• 1:06:13
  that's happened in your life lately. That's the
• 1:06:14
  last question that I want to ask you before we
• 1:06:16
  go. You know, honestly, and this is like, this
• 1:06:24
  is going to be a corny answer, but I do... therapy
• 1:06:27
  now and I do it on the computer on telehealth
• 1:06:29
  and I just think everyone should do therapy because
• 1:06:31
  it is delicious and it's like I'm so I'm able
• 1:06:34
  to untangle so many things and move forward with
• 1:06:37
  my life and I just think everyone has stuff to
• 1:06:40
  untangle so I like doing it at home I have my
• 1:06:43
  cat I have my blanket and I can just I don't
• 1:06:45
  have to go to an office and I just I just think
• 1:06:47
  everyone should do therapy and I think it's awesome
• 1:06:49
  so I love that I also have my therapist on telehealth,
• 1:06:55
  so I totally agree with you. So relaxing. Yeah.
• 1:06:59
  I mean, I'll share my story. You feel comfortable
• 1:07:01
  to share your story if you'd like. If you don't,
• 1:07:03
  you don't need to. But it was during the pandemic,
• 1:07:08
  not surprisingly, like July of 2020. And I had
• 1:07:12
  just gotten into a relationship with my now wife
• 1:07:15
  and I was feeling a lot of stress and anxiety
• 1:07:20
  from that. And also a toxic work environment
• 1:07:23
  that I was in at the time and probably some other
• 1:07:25
  things. It was just a lot, you know, I was, I
• 1:07:27
  was, you know, my weight was fluctuating and
• 1:07:30
  I was like, all right, let me go back into therapy.
• 1:07:31
  Cause I had on and off periods with it. Um, and
• 1:07:34
  it was the pandemic. So virtual was pretty much
• 1:07:36
  the only option. Um, and aside from a few off
• 1:07:40
  periods where, because I wasn't in Vermont for
• 1:07:42
  a brief period of time, we couldn't do therapy.
• 1:07:46
  It's been great. It's been great. I've been all
• 1:07:49
  the better for it. Certainly have gone through
• 1:07:51
  an emotional roller coaster with the tools that
• 1:07:54
  I've learned from her. And yeah, six years later,
• 1:07:58
  I'm happy to say that I still have a relationship
• 1:08:01
  with the same therapist. And yeah, man, that's
• 1:08:04
  good that you put that out there because, you
• 1:08:06
  know, especially in this... world that we live
• 1:08:08
  in today, even now the pandemic is over. It's
• 1:08:10
  still, uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of
• 1:08:12
  depressing shit going on in our world and there's,
• 1:08:15
  and there's reason to let it get to you. So to
• 1:08:18
  have therapy, to give you a perspective of like,
• 1:08:20
  all right. you can still find a way to find value
• 1:08:22
  and positivity and purpose in your life. Like
• 1:08:24
  that's, that's, that's fantastic. Yeah. And I
• 1:08:27
  just think, Oh, it's just not worth life was
• 1:08:29
  too short to be like to suffer every day. You
• 1:08:32
  know what I mean? It's the same thing. Like I'm
• 1:08:33
  in recovery. Like I, I, you know, um, some people
• 1:08:37
  don't have, have that gene, you know, I like
• 1:08:39
  fire, you know, like as like mentally, like metaphorically,
• 1:08:44
  like I'm, I was the type of kid that like, Uh,
• 1:08:47
  was outside being bad outside the high school
• 1:08:50
  and like, and I just liked playing with fire.
• 1:08:52
  And so, and I, you know, luckily I like, I got
• 1:08:55
  sober and stuff, but then there's just so much
• 1:08:57
  to untangle for everybody's with therapy. And
• 1:09:00
  with my career, like I think like everything
• 1:09:02
  we're talking about where trends change and now
• 1:09:04
  like journalists are weird. weird about what
• 1:09:07
  you do or people are meaner at a show to be than
• 1:09:11
  these guys or just what is out on music is different.
• 1:09:15
  And I'm not the hot thing this day or this week
• 1:09:20
  or whatever, right? Cause somebody else is the
• 1:09:23
  hot thing this week. And like that's stuff I
• 1:09:25
  did not know how to deal with. And just therapy
• 1:09:27
  is like, you know what I mean? You're able to
• 1:09:29
  like get back to your true center. Cause like
• 1:09:31
  all I had was my career for so long, my whole
• 1:09:34
  20s, like all I had was my career and like whether
• 1:09:36
  I was number one or not. And that's just such
• 1:09:39
  a miserable way to live. Yeah. I can certainly
• 1:09:46
  relate. Yeah. There was a period of time probably
• 1:09:49
  primarily in my 20s, maybe earlier in my 30s
• 1:09:51
  where I thought, okay, if I'm not going career
• 1:09:55
  wise, then I have no purpose. What am I living
• 1:09:58
  for? And to have that so closely tied with your
• 1:10:02
  will to live. It's a very dangerous thing. So
• 1:10:06
  along the way, just being able to still hold
• 1:10:10
  the value of like, all right, I like producing
• 1:10:12
  content. I like putting out content out there
• 1:10:14
  for the world to see, but also. Um, making sure
• 1:10:18
  I make time for my wife, our pets, making time
• 1:10:22
  to see friends. Um, looking forward to that sometimes
• 1:10:26
  more than producing content. Uh, it's great.
• 1:10:31
  It's, it's a wonderful place that I'm in my life
• 1:10:34
  right now. Um, and, you know, especially getting
• 1:10:36
  back on antidepressants, it's like, it's, it's
• 1:10:38
  made it all even better because, uh, the mind
• 1:10:42
  can be. The mind can be an interesting adventure
• 1:10:46
  when you are not medicated and need to be. And
• 1:10:51
  I was getting to a point like end of last year
• 1:10:53
  where I was cratering mentally and I just needed
• 1:10:57
  to like get myself on track going into 2026.
• 1:11:01
  And the fact that it seems to have been working
• 1:11:04
  so far, it's been, it's been really, it's been
• 1:11:07
  really a gift. So. Good. Amen. Yeah, dude. Yeah,
• 1:11:11
  no, I feel like, man, you can be so hard on yourself.
• 1:11:14
  Like, I was so hard on myself, you know what
• 1:11:16
  I mean? And that's like, and other people can
• 1:11:18
  love you, but it's like, then why can't you love
• 1:11:21
  you? It's like, why was I so hard on myself?
• 1:11:22
  And so, yeah, he's a good thing. Compassion.
• 1:11:25
  That's the word that my therapist keeps bringing
• 1:11:27
  up. Compassion. That's something that we need
• 1:11:28
  to work on, Jonathan. This was a fantastic conversation,
• 1:11:33
  Patrick. Amen. Yes. Yes. Amen to therapy. Amen
• 1:11:37
  to taking care of yourself. Um, as Aziz Ansari
• 1:11:41
  said in Parks and Recreation, treat yourself.
• 1:11:43
  Treat yourself. Still one of the greatest shows
• 1:11:46
  ever. Patrick, this was great. Uh, please close
• 1:11:49
  us out with letting us know how we can find you,
• 1:11:52
  keep up with what you're doing. Like give us
• 1:11:54
  everything. The social is the website. Um, yeah.
• 1:11:56
  on everything. It's clockwise spelled wrong like
• 1:12:00
  a rapper. K -L -L -K -W -I -Z -E at clockwise.
• 1:12:04
  It's on Spotify, YouTube, Apple. Hit me on Instagram.
• 1:12:09
  I'm on there a lot. And Permanent Records movie
• 1:12:12
  comes out straight to streaming release. Be out.
• 1:12:15
  Look for the trailer in August. And I did the
• 1:12:17
  soundtrack. And I just want to shout out, we
• 1:12:19
  have like Michael Barrow, who's from Amazing
• 1:12:21
  Spider -Man and Gotham and stuff like that. He's
• 1:12:22
  in the movie. Got Christopher Larkin from The
• 1:12:25
  100. So that's going to be great. That's what
• 1:12:27
  I'm working on and check out the music. Drop
• 1:12:29
  me a line. There you go. I love it. And in the
• 1:12:32
  meantime, as usual, listen and watch the delicious
• 1:12:34
  culture wherever you get your podcasts. We're
• 1:12:36
  on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, iHeart, Amazon, SiriusXM,
• 1:12:39
  wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a five
• 1:12:41
  -star rating on Spotify if you like us. And if
• 1:12:44
  you like us on Apple, leave a written review.
• 1:12:47
  That would help tremendously. Send an email.
• 1:12:50
  If you have any feedback, thedeliciousculture
• 1:12:52
  at gmail .com. Follow the delicious culture on
• 1:12:55
  Instagram. Instagram, and TikTok. at the delicious
• 1:12:57
  culture and on YouTube. Hopefully it's not too
• 1:13:01
  confusing. I have two separate channels, one
• 1:13:03
  for full episodes of this podcast, one for just
• 1:13:06
  three, four minute clips for full episodes at
• 1:13:09
  the delicious culture, John Francois and for
• 1:13:12
  the shorter clips at John Francois clips. John
• 1:13:15
  Francois spelled J O N F R A N C O I S Patrick,
• 1:13:19
  we got to do this again, man. This was so fun.
• 1:13:21
  My sad brother. Yes, sir. Yes, my sag slash literal.
• 1:13:26
  27th birthday brother. All right, y 'all. For
• 1:13:29
  all of you listening and watching, let deliciousness
• 1:13:32
  ring.