Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / "CUTTING & SAWING" LOVER DISMEMBERED, MOM FINDS HEAD IN BUCKET

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"CUTTING & SAWING" LOVER DISMEMBERED, MOM FINDS HEAD IN BUCKET · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight, cutting and sawing,
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Speaker 1: a lover is dismembered, the mom finds a head in
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Speaker 1: a bucket. Good evening, This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Ahead
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Speaker 1: in a Bucket. Let me just start with that straight
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Speaker 1: out to veteran trial lawyer criminal defense attorney Derek Smith
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Speaker 1: joining us and you can find him at Dwsmith Legal
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Speaker 1: dot com. Derek, thank you for being with us. You know,
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Speaker 1: when we were in law school, Derek at your law
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Speaker 1: school on me at my own, we had all these
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Speaker 1: lofty legal thoughts, like all sorts of constitutional arguments and
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Speaker 1: theoretical back and forth about the meaning the founding Father's
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Speaker 1: really intended. I never really thought through to the logical
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Speaker 1: conclusion that I would be talking about ahead in a bucket,
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Speaker 1: did you.
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Speaker 2: No, No, Nancy, or else, I had have probably picked
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Speaker 2: a different profession, you know, not something that you're aspiring
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Speaker 2: to be. When we're in law school, look about all
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Speaker 2: the constitutional law, all the ways we're going to change
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Speaker 2: the world for the better.
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Speaker 3: Never thought we'd be the one on the other end, right, No, I.
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Speaker 1: Never did think I would be discussing a head in
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Speaker 1: a bucket.
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Speaker 4: But you know, a special guest joining us.
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Speaker 1: We're very proud to have Chief Chris Davis, chief of
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Speaker 1: the Green Bay PD, so previously in Portland, Oregon Police
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Speaker 1: Bureau and Arizona State University PD.
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Speaker 4: Wow, okay, what does that mean to me?
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Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of action, but up until this case,
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Speaker 1: had you ever encountered a human head, a severed head
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Speaker 1: in a bucket?
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Speaker 5: Uh? No, in all that time, this was a new
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Speaker 5: one for me.
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Speaker 1: When we were in training, for instance, when I was
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Speaker 1: in law school and arguing in moot court pretend court
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Speaker 1: to get ready to become a trial lawyer.
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Speaker 4: I guess we all knew it was out there.
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Speaker 1: When you were in let's just say, cadet school or
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Speaker 1: police training, you knew it existed. But it's a whole
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Speaker 1: another thing. When it suddenly gets real and there's.
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Speaker 5: A head in a bucket, you know it really is.
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Speaker 5: And we try to train police officers to have skills
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Speaker 5: that they can use in any situation they find themselves in.
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Speaker 5: But the real world sometimes just has things in it
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Speaker 5: that we can't fully prepare you for.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Chief Davis will so many things
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Speaker 1: every day for me.
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Speaker 4: Unlike what Derek Smith said.
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Speaker 1: If he thought he was going to have to talk
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Speaker 1: about a head in the bucket, he may have chosen
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Speaker 1: another profession.
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Speaker 4: I would not.
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Speaker 1: That would make me want to put bad guys in
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Speaker 1: jail even more, even more intensely. But I'm not defending them.
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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get them out of jail.
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Speaker 4: Davis.
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Speaker 1: Another thing is, in all the years I've investigated, prosecuted,
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Speaker 1: had gone to the more gone to crime scenes. I
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Speaker 1: never got sick to my stomach. I never felt queasy.
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Speaker 1: I never broke down and cried. Other things more poignant
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Speaker 1: details get me upset, but the carnage doesn't. It kind
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Speaker 1: of makes me angry. It makes me want justice. It
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Speaker 1: makes me wonder why the bad guy wasn't in jail already,
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Speaker 1: because you don't go from zero to one hundred and
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Speaker 1: ten mph overnight.
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Speaker 4: There had to be.
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Speaker 1: A lead up, unless way, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm crazy myself.
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Speaker 4: There's coburger, here's a PhD.
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Speaker 1: Student, everybody thinks is meek and mild Mannard, and now
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Speaker 1: for murders. So I guess from the outside looking in.
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Speaker 1: Although it made been brewing for a long time. He
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Speaker 1: did go to zero to one hundred and twenty mph
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Speaker 1: literally overnight, So I guess it can happen.
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Speaker 5: Chief it can, And for us when we or something
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Speaker 5: like this, our job is to find out the truth
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Speaker 5: so that we can refer the matter to our prosecutors,
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Speaker 5: our partners in the DA's office, in the court system.
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Speaker 5: But you know, when you encounter something like this, the
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Speaker 5: person's history can be interesting, but what you're really looking
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Speaker 5: for is what can we prove actually happened in this instance.
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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you if you didn't say what we're
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Speaker 1: looking for is why, because I would, you know, beat
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Speaker 1: my brains out. For about the first five years that
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Speaker 1: I was a felony prosecutor in INTERCDI, Atlanta, I would
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Speaker 1: look over at the defendant think why would you do
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Speaker 1: this and leave such a wake of pain trailing behind
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Speaker 1: you just like a motor boat.
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Speaker 4: And then one day I was about into year five,
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Speaker 4: I thought, why am I wasting.
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Speaker 1: My time trying to figure out what he was thinking
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Speaker 1: when he committed a double murder, A heinus double murder?
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Speaker 4: Why am I even worried?
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Speaker 1: That's not an element of proof showing motive. So let's
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Speaker 1: get right to it, and let's start for so many
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Speaker 1: violent crimes start with the nine to one one.
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Speaker 6: You.
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Speaker 7: Said an officer at eight twenty nine, Stonebrook just woke
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Speaker 7: me up to swear that Calder subs ahead of her
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Speaker 7: son in a base by eighty nine Stony brooky eye right, yesty,
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Speaker 7: just so much.
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Speaker 8: At a house department who.
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Speaker 1: Plays okay, Derek Smith, a veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney,
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Speaker 1: which is its own breed lawyer.
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Speaker 4: Did you hear the nine one one up?
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Speaker 1: The guy says, my girlfriend just woke me up swear
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Speaker 1: she found her the severed hit of her son in
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Speaker 1: the basement. And what does the nine one one dispatch say?
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Speaker 1: Can you repeat the address, sir? And he says eighteen
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Speaker 1: nine is Tony Brook And the guy dispatch says, st n.
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Speaker 4: E What I mean? What? What is he brain dead?
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Speaker 1: The guy just hears that there's a head in a bucket,
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Speaker 1: the head is in the basement.
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Speaker 4: He's like, can you spell stony please? Is there an
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Speaker 4: E in that?
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Speaker 3: What we gotta understand?
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Speaker 2: I mean they're on the other end of the emergency
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Speaker 2: phone call trying to understand what's going on too. You know,
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Speaker 2: it's not every day you get a phone call like
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Speaker 2: that that there's something in the head in a basket.
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Speaker 2: But they're trying to de escalate the situation too. They
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Speaker 2: want to make sure the person on the other end
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Speaker 2: is calm enough to at least relay the information about
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Speaker 2: what's going on, especially when you hear something.
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Speaker 3: Heinous like this.
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Speaker 2: Now, you want to make sure the person calling you
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Speaker 2: is safe enough in what's going on. Obviously the person
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Speaker 2: with the head in the basket has another issue going on,
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Speaker 2: but gets more into that later.
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Speaker 1: I'm just telling you, I'm always amazed and a little
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Speaker 1: confounded by the way dispatch responds.
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Speaker 4: But hey, you know what, I hear what you're saying.
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Speaker 4: Let's hear more of that nine one one call here again.
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Speaker 7: I don't happy my girls swears that she's follow her
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Speaker 7: as severed ahead of her son at the baby a bucket.
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Speaker 7: I went down.
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Speaker 9: I can't go with them.
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Speaker 7: I lead. That's kind of a free though. We have
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Speaker 7: to say that, yeah, and who who is she claiming?
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Speaker 10: Her son?
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Speaker 3: Al her son twenty four, twenty twenty five.
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Speaker 1: Now to doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining US forensic psychologists specializing
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Speaker 1: in capital mitigation. You can find her at panthermitigation dot com.
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Speaker 1: She's the author of Criminal Behavior and my favorite of hers,
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Speaker 1: where law and psychology intersect issues in legal psychology. Doctor Sherry,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Did you notice the
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Speaker 1: guy hear the mom's boyfriend, he's not going down and
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Speaker 1: looking himself.
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Speaker 4: He's saying, she's claiming it's her son. What's with him?
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Speaker 1: Why doesn't he go down there and find out? And
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Speaker 1: he's sounding like he's disbelieving the mom.
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Speaker 9: Well, it is something that would cause a state of
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Speaker 9: disbelief in some people, especially if they haven't seen it.
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Speaker 9: And I'm guessing that he didn't want to go down
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Speaker 9: to see it, because if it's true, it's absolutely horrific.
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Speaker 1: Uh.
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Speaker 9: You know, and imagine what mom was going through that
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Speaker 9: she sees her son's head in a bucket in the basement.
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Speaker 9: So I think that's a natural reaction, although I think
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Speaker 9: most of us think we would run down there to
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Speaker 9: see what was going on.
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Speaker 1: So finally Mom takes the phone listen a bucket?
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Speaker 7: What makes you think? At what did you see? Calculating Okay,
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Speaker 7: where's the uh, where's the rest of the body?
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Speaker 1: At No, I am you're hearing the mother of the victim.
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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering doctor Sherry Schwartz if she is in shock,
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Speaker 1: because I notice that she can't say it again. The
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Speaker 1: dispatch says, what did you see? And instead of recounting
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Speaker 1: it again, she says, exactly what I told you. It's
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Speaker 1: like I've said it once. I don't even like saying
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Speaker 1: it right now. She didn't want to say again, my
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Speaker 1: son's head is in a bucket. She won't say it again.
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Speaker 1: She can't bring herself to say it. What is that response?
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Speaker 9: It could be exactly what you just said, Nancy. It
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Speaker 9: could be a state of shock because she sounds remarkably
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Speaker 9: calm and unfazed, which makes a lot of people jump
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Speaker 9: to the conclusion that, well, maybe she had something to
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Speaker 9: do with it. But the reality is it could very
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Speaker 9: well be a state of shock. I mean, imagine how
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Speaker 9: shocking to see a stranger's head in a bucket, let
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Speaker 9: alone your own child.
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Speaker 4: And also to doctor Thomas Coyne joining us.
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Speaker 1: He is the chief Medical Examiner District to a medical
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Speaker 1: Examiner's office, State of Florida. Never a lack of business
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Speaker 1: in Florida. It's like the crime vortex, believe it or not.
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Speaker 1: Forensic pathologists and neuropathologist toxicologist, and you can find him
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Speaker 1: on x at doctor t M Coin see a doctor
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Speaker 1: con Also, I think it would take a mother to
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Speaker 1: identify that, because when a head is severed, it no
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Speaker 1: longer really looks like the person you knew. It largely
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Speaker 1: becomes disfigured looking almost immediately.
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Speaker 4: Why is that, well, it certainly can.
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Speaker 6: I mean you lose the muscle tone, the normal lively
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Speaker 6: appearance of the face, you know, either that sort of
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Speaker 6: flat affect, the normal expressions go away. But also there
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Speaker 6: could be a little bit of decomposition that occurs, especially
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Speaker 6: if the death occurred hours or days prior. You lose
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Speaker 6: all the fluid out of the out of the head
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Speaker 6: or the blood in particular, so the coloration may be different.
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Speaker 6: So yeah, and it's out of context for what we
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Speaker 6: normally expect to see. And I'm assuming shock played a
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Speaker 6: role in that.
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Speaker 4: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: Joining me now, Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 4: Lead me up to this point.
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Speaker 1: What would lead a mom to just wander down to
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Speaker 1: the basement and look in a bucket?
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Speaker 11: Well, in reality, she woke up about three fifteen, three
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Speaker 11: twenty in the morning, because she heard a door shut downstairs,
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Speaker 11: and then she heard a car start out in the driveway.
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Speaker 4: It's enough to.
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Speaker 11: Wake any of us up. So she went down to
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Speaker 11: see what was going on. And she goes all the
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Speaker 11: way down the stairs and doesn't see anything. It looks
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Speaker 11: like it's a little disturbed. They're, you know, a little
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Speaker 11: bit different than normal. It's when she turns around to
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Speaker 11: head back up the stairs she glances down to her
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Speaker 11: right and she sees this bucket and it's got a
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Speaker 11: towel on it. Nancy, and being a mother and being
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Speaker 11: curious and knowing that's not a normal way for it
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Speaker 11: to be, she actually looks inside, and that's how it
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Speaker 11: all happened. She I can't imagine me waking up at
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Speaker 11: three o'clock plus in the morning and then all of
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Speaker 11: a sudden, you've got a head and a bucket just
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Speaker 11: goes beyond anything any of us can imagine.
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Speaker 1: Well, of course, Dave mac I'm asking for probative or
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Speaker 1: evidentiary reasons, because most people would not just wake up
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Speaker 1: out of a dense sleep and think, oh, let me
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Speaker 1: go down in the basement and look for a bucket.
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Speaker 1: But because that would indicate some degree of guilt.
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Speaker 4: Right.
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Speaker 1: But here the mom was woken up by the sound
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Speaker 1: of a door slamming, and then she went looking and
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Speaker 1: to you, Chief Chris Day joining us chief of the
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Speaker 1: Green BAYPD. Excellent reputation. By the way, Chief Davis, again,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. The smallest things are probative.
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Speaker 1: They prove something. For instance, if you pull up to
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Speaker 1: your house and you notice the front door is slightly
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Speaker 1: a jar. It may only be an inch, but you
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Speaker 1: certainly did not leave your front door unlocked and open.
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Speaker 4: Right.
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Speaker 1: So it's a small thing, but in our world it's
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Speaker 1: a major red flag. So the moment Mom sees a
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Speaker 1: bucket sitting out in the floor, I mean it's her place.
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Speaker 1: She wasn't there before she went to bed the last
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Speaker 1: time she was in the basement. Now it's there. Now
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Speaker 1: I understand why Mom wakes up in the middle of
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Speaker 1: the night, goes downstairs and looks in a bucket, because
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Speaker 1: if I didn't know those facts, I would think she
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Speaker 1: may have had something.
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Speaker 4: To do with it.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and especially at the beginning of investigation like this,
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Speaker 5: those are the kind of details that are the police
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Speaker 5: officers look for and You're right. The whole case really
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Speaker 5: can turn on a small detail like the condition of
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Speaker 5: the door, when whoever is responsible for this left the bucket.
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Speaker 5: You know, obviously we would have a lot of questions
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Speaker 5: for mom in this situation about what normal looks like
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Speaker 5: at their house, to try to find those details that
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Speaker 5: don't fit the norm for them in their home.
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Speaker 1: And to Derek Smith, whenever someone is quote clairvoyant, they're
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Speaker 1: usually guilty.
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Speaker 4: Let's just think this through. Okay. Remember O J. Simpson
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Speaker 4: Orenthal James since in the.
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Speaker 1: Double Killer he had a dream he said where he
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Speaker 1: killed Cole Brown. Okay, then remember Scott Peterson. He's such
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Speaker 1: a great example for so many facets of crime. He
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Speaker 1: told his lover Amber Fry, this was going to be
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Speaker 1: his first Christmas without his wife Lacey, that he was
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Speaker 1: a widower, and then two weeks later, bam, it was
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Speaker 1: Christmas and Lacey was dead.
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Speaker 4: Either he is clairvoyant or he's a killer.
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Speaker 1: And there are many many other examples of when a
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Speaker 1: murder defendant suddenly has a streak of clairvoyance. The mom
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Speaker 1: here had a reason for waking up. She has nothing
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Speaker 1: to do with this. But if I didn't know it
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Speaker 1: led up to it. I absolutely would have looked at her.
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Speaker 1: I totally would have given her the hairy eyeball.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Nancy, you can I can understand, you know, when
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Speaker 2: a defendant comes to me and saying, hey, you know,
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Speaker 2: things weren't going right. I was fantasizing about these things,
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Speaker 2: but I didn't really want it to happen in reality,
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Speaker 2: you know, I mean just talking about O. J.
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Speaker 3: Simpson.
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Speaker 2: Come on, he's not guilty, right, jury of his peers
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Speaker 2: found I'm not guilty. Just because he was fantasizing or
16:03
Speaker 2: having premonitions about these things doesn't mean it's actually happening,
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Speaker 2: and the state has the burden to prove it.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: What did you just say? Did you say Simpson is
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Speaker 1: not guilty? And what about premonitions?
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Speaker 3: Just because you're you're fantasizing and having.
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Speaker 4: Thoughts on you can't keep a straight face.
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Speaker 2: Oh, we're just having a conversation here, aren't we. You know,
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Speaker 2: we're just talking about it. You know a lot of
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Speaker 2: times even divorce, let's say about a divorce, you know,
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Speaker 2: a spouse has been wrong, even cheating on and they're
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Speaker 2: just fantasizing about their husband meeting a traumatic or a
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Speaker 2: drastic ending to his life. Doesn't mean they want it
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Speaker 2: to happen. But you know, we're humans, we have emotion.
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Speaker 4: I want to see your client lists right now, your.
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Speaker 1: Divorce client list right now, potentially because you just may
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Speaker 1: have let a cat out of a bag, clawing angry cat.
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Speaker 1: So we're talking about mom, what could possibly have woken
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Speaker 1: her up in the middle of the night, and she
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Speaker 1: just suddenly comes upon a bucket with a head in it.
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Speaker 4: This explains it all. Listen to Mom on the nine one.
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Speaker 1: One call because I want to hear if you believe
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Speaker 1: or I do.
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Speaker 7: And then I hurt my doors and heard me man start,
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Speaker 7: and I like out scared, and I looked at the bathroom,
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Speaker 7: the lights around in the basement, I heard them mops
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Speaker 7: and I looked around there. But then when I turned
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Speaker 7: around to come back up, you have a bucket, how
17:27
Speaker 7: little bit? And I'm like, oh great, that's why there
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Speaker 7: not here against their packs. It in a bucket, And
17:34
Speaker 7: I looked at is in that bucket?
17:36
Speaker 3: What's your fun thing?
17:38
Speaker 7: Baderio.
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Speaker 1: You know it's part of the law and criminal cases
17:43
Speaker 1: that the prosecutor or the defense can never ask the
17:47
Speaker 1: jury to put themselves in the shoes of the victim
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Speaker 1: that cannot be argued. That's reversible error, and if you
17:57
Speaker 1: do it, you're screwed technical legal term. But the more
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Speaker 1: I think about this, doctor Sherry Schwartz, when I'm listening
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Speaker 1: to the mom, I can't help but put myself in
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Speaker 1: her shoes. I've got a son, I've got a daughter.
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Speaker 1: I don't want to even let my mind go to
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Speaker 1: this place where this mom finds her son Shad beheaded
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Speaker 1: with his head in a bucket. I mean, I don't
18:31
Speaker 1: think that's anything you can ever get over for the
18:34
Speaker 1: rest of your life.
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Speaker 4: No, most certainly not.
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Speaker 9: And imagine she was in the house because she was
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Speaker 9: able to go downstairs and see what was going on.
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Speaker 9: So the shock, the guilt, the grief, the trauma, these
18:49
Speaker 9: are all very real things and they don't go away.
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Speaker 9: People say, you know that the case will bring closure.
18:56
Speaker 9: That's closure is basically a myth for victims, victims of
19:01
Speaker 9: homicide and trauma. And when you were the one who
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Speaker 9: discovers not even an entire body intact, but the head
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Speaker 9: of your child in a bucket, I'm not sure that
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Speaker 9: that's some an image that ever leaves your mind.
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Speaker 1: What led up to the moment we are convinced. I'm
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Speaker 1: convinced the mom had nothing to do with this. I
19:22
Speaker 1: don't think her boyfriend had.
19:24
Speaker 4: Anything to do with that.
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Speaker 1: When you're hearing on nine one one, judging by his
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Speaker 1: demeanor with nine one one and the words he's using.
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Speaker 4: What he's saying, but let's listen to someone or no.
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Speaker 7: He was your yesterday with some chick and then all
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Speaker 7: of a sudden, nobody is here. And she came up
19:43
Speaker 7: to use the restaurant coat time, and she keeps calling
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Speaker 7: and calling. Now she says that she hears the phone
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Speaker 7: doll there too. Is she with you right now? Yes?
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Speaker 1: Yes, So there's love for I don't know what to do,
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Speaker 1: and the victim's mom elaborates on the last movements off
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Speaker 1: her son.
20:04
Speaker 4: Listen, when the last time.
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Speaker 7: You saw your son out? Well, I guess Wednesday, So
20:12
Speaker 7: I think him up coming to gads on my maid,
20:16
Speaker 7: and you know, normally stay here, stay or forfeits. Got
20:20
Speaker 7: left the pawn tree even here a couple of hours
20:23
Speaker 7: and give up with Taylor and they coming to day
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Speaker 7: Taylor's that girl.
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Speaker 1: Police immediately converge on the scene, and this is what
20:37
Speaker 1: we learn.
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Speaker 10: They see I went downstairs at the bottom of the
20:42
Speaker 10: stairs to the right there was a green bucket with
20:45
Speaker 10: a shower towel on top of it. Just to verify
20:49
Speaker 10: we had an actual head in a bucket. Lifted the
20:53
Speaker 10: towel off and there was in fact a human severed
20:56
Speaker 10: head in the bucket.
20:57
Speaker 1: From our friends at w b A Y TV two
20:59
Speaker 1: by the Chief Chris Davis, chief of the Green Bait
21:02
Speaker 1: PD Chief. Have you noticed I have that in many
21:08
Speaker 1: murder cases you see the killer try to hide the face,
21:15
Speaker 1: if not the whole body, but at least the face
21:18
Speaker 1: of the dead person. For instance, in this case, the
21:22
Speaker 1: killer not only killed the young man, the son Shay,
21:28
Speaker 1: but then it puts a towel over the bucket. I've
21:32
Speaker 1: seen cases where leaves were put over the victim's face.
21:38
Speaker 1: In the double killing at Delphi of Little Abby and Libby,
21:44
Speaker 1: twigs and leaves were put over the girl's bodies, particularly
21:48
Speaker 1: the face.
21:49
Speaker 4: I even had a case chief where.
21:53
Speaker 1: A mother was killed many people believe, by her daughter,
21:57
Speaker 1: her adult daughter, and she left allegedly left the mom's
22:03
Speaker 1: naked body on mom's bed and then shoved a white
22:08
Speaker 1: wicker trash basket over the mom's head.
22:13
Speaker 4: Have you noticed that? I mean I'm just a lawyer.
22:15
Speaker 1: I'm not a shrink, but that's got to mean something psychologically.
22:19
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that is very common at crime scenes.
22:23
Speaker 5: And you know, you can speculate as to why that is.
22:26
Speaker 5: I think, you know, we're accustomed because we're social, social
22:30
Speaker 5: animals and so, and the way we interact with people
22:33
Speaker 5: is face to face. And I think at some level
22:37
Speaker 5: what's going on with someone in that situation is they
22:40
Speaker 5: don't want to look the person in the eye that
22:42
Speaker 5: they just committed this ultimate violation of that person too.
22:49
Speaker 4: So I don't quite get it. Have you ever seen it?
22:51
Speaker 1: Derek Smith, veteran defense attorney, where the head or the
22:55
Speaker 1: face is covered. I've seen it time after time after time.
22:59
Speaker 1: They am I put a blanket over the victim. They
23:01
Speaker 1: might put a sweater over the face.
23:04
Speaker 4: It's almost as if it's instinctive.
23:06
Speaker 1: You know what, How before a dog sits down, it
23:08
Speaker 1: goes around and around and around and then it sits down.
23:11
Speaker 4: Why don't know, but it happens. I don't know what
23:14
Speaker 4: to make of it.
23:15
Speaker 1: But in this case, you've got a severed head and
23:17
Speaker 1: a bucket. What you think putting a tea towel over
23:19
Speaker 1: It's gonna make it go away. Nobody's gonna notice it.
23:22
Speaker 2: Well, obviously not if it's something like just a tea
23:25
Speaker 2: towel over a dead body. But I mean, from my experience,
23:28
Speaker 2: I've seen just you know, especially emotional type crimes and
23:32
Speaker 2: specifically murders and things of that nature. After it's done,
23:37
Speaker 2: there's a shock, there's a feeling of regret, and you're right,
23:40
Speaker 2: they just covered up because they don't want it.
23:42
Speaker 3: They don't want to think of it anymore.
23:44
Speaker 2: They want to obviously besides hiding a body and trying
23:46
Speaker 2: to get away with the crime, they don't want to
23:48
Speaker 2: They don't want to face the reality of what they've
23:50
Speaker 2: just done, so they cover it up and just put
23:53
Speaker 2: it away in their mind and hope it goes away.
23:55
Speaker 3: But no, it doesn't work like that.
23:57
Speaker 1: Finding your son's head, a severed head in a bucket
24:02
Speaker 1: covered with a tea title in your basement. Again, I
24:07
Speaker 1: don't think the mom can ever come back from that. Dismemberments,
24:12
Speaker 1: dismemberments of dead bodies quite the anomaly, but happens more
24:19
Speaker 1: often than I want to think.
24:22
Speaker 4: For instance, the case of Joel Guy Junior.
24:26
Speaker 12: Joel and Lisa Guy were found deceased in their residence.
24:30
Speaker 12: The parents are believed to have been murdered between late
24:32
Speaker 12: Friday night, the twenty fifth and midday on Saturday, the
24:36
Speaker 12: twenty sixth. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well
24:40
Speaker 12: as dismemberment. Joel Junior was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived
24:45
Speaker 12: in Knoxville on Wednesday, the twenty seconds and departed on Sunday,
24:50
Speaker 12: the twenty seventh. A welfare check initially called in by
24:53
Speaker 12: Lisa's coworkers on the twenty eight led to discovery of
24:57
Speaker 12: multiple gruesome crime scenes throughout the residence. Joel Junior placed
25:02
Speaker 12: portions of the remains in an acid based solution in
25:06
Speaker 12: an attempt to destroy evidence.
25:08
Speaker 1: He actually put his mom's head in a cooking pot
25:11
Speaker 1: and was cooking it on the stove. To doctor Sherry Schwartz,
25:15
Speaker 1: and boy, do I need a shrink, renowned forensic psychologist.
25:20
Speaker 1: There's the mind of a killer, that's one thing, But
25:24
Speaker 1: the mind of a killer that then dismembers as a
25:27
Speaker 1: whole another animal. What is the motivation? What goads someone
25:35
Speaker 1: to dismember a body? And it's not just disposal, because
25:40
Speaker 1: in this case, the body was dismembered and then left
25:44
Speaker 1: in a bucket in the basement to be found. So
25:48
Speaker 1: the dismemberment means something psychologically, but what.
25:54
Speaker 9: Well. Traditional wisdom is that it's to conceal the crime,
25:58
Speaker 9: but you're right, it's not just about that. It could
26:01
Speaker 9: very much be a fascination with knowing what it's like
26:05
Speaker 9: to kill somebody and cut them off, which is really
26:09
Speaker 9: bizarre in something that most of us can't understand, but
26:13
Speaker 9: it's a fact people will do that, and there's a
26:16
Speaker 9: level of viciousness there. In this case, what strikes me
26:20
Speaker 9: is covering the head in the bucket, to me, is
26:23
Speaker 9: not about not so much about oh, I can't deal
26:27
Speaker 9: with what I've done, because understand that when somebody takes
26:30
Speaker 9: it to this level, they're not concerned with the well
26:34
Speaker 9: being of anyone else. But leaving that head behind like
26:37
Speaker 9: that was very much to be about making sure the
26:40
Speaker 9: family did discover it and wanting to inflict pain. So
26:44
Speaker 9: that could be another aspect of dismemberment.
26:48
Speaker 1: Completely eviscerting, destroying the victim's body once they're already dead.
26:55
Speaker 1: To doctor Thomas Coin, joining US Chief Medical Examiner District
26:58
Speaker 1: to Emmy's office, Florida, in the case, we were just
27:01
Speaker 1: talking about Joel Guy. He had been told his family
27:05
Speaker 1: was going to cut him off. The parents were retiring
27:08
Speaker 1: and they needed the little money that they had left
27:11
Speaker 1: to support themselves, so he would have to make a
27:15
Speaker 1: living now. He had been going to school and school,
27:18
Speaker 1: and I'm all about education, but he was in school
27:21
Speaker 1: for like ten years and didn't have a job. I
27:23
Speaker 1: guess he stayed home and played dungeons and dragons or
27:26
Speaker 1: mortal combat. I don't know, but whatever, he was angry
27:30
Speaker 1: because he was going to be cut off. Listen to
27:33
Speaker 1: this description from doctor Amy Hawes, the medical examiner in
27:36
Speaker 1: that case. His mother was dismembered. Her head was severed
27:42
Speaker 1: from her body, her arms disarticulated at the shoulders.
27:46
Speaker 4: And you know what, coin I would not just say
27:48
Speaker 4: to the jury dismembered.
27:51
Speaker 1: Oh no, they have to hear every fact because every
27:55
Speaker 1: minute the dismemberment continues is more men's ray intent malice,
28:03
Speaker 1: which goes.
28:03
Speaker 4: To murder one.
28:05
Speaker 1: And yes, I know, before you jump in, Derek Smith,
28:07
Speaker 1: that the dismemberment happens after the crime, but this shows
28:11
Speaker 1: frame of mind, arms disarticulated, legs disarticulated.
28:15
Speaker 4: At the knee.
28:18
Speaker 7: Uh.
28:18
Speaker 1: The dad was also dismembered mister guy, his legs disarticulated
28:23
Speaker 1: at the hips, her head completely severed, her arms completely severed.
28:30
Speaker 4: This takes a long time, dtor coin.
28:34
Speaker 6: Long time and energy. Yeah, there's a lot of tissue
28:37
Speaker 6: to cut through, especially going through the hip. It's difficult
28:41
Speaker 6: even you know, during the autopsy, if I'm trying to
28:43
Speaker 6: disarticulate a hip to look for trauma, it takes a
28:46
Speaker 6: little bit of an effort.
28:47
Speaker 3: So yes, not an easy process.
28:50
Speaker 1: No, no, And it.
28:51
Speaker 4: Indicates a male killer.
28:54
Speaker 1: The instances of female killers that dismember very very low,
28:59
Speaker 1: almost non existent. And this behavior is not within one
29:04
Speaker 1: certain type of socioeconomic level. It crosses race, it crosses education,
29:10
Speaker 1: it crosses money. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, a mom
29:24
Speaker 1: finds her son's severed head in a bucket in a
29:28
Speaker 1: basement with a tea towel covering the top of the bucket.
29:33
Speaker 4: Who did it? If we don't think it's mom or boyfriend?
29:37
Speaker 1: That leads me to a girlfriend, I've got a pretty
29:41
Speaker 1: good reason for blaming her.
29:44
Speaker 4: Listen, those were the ibelacked out during that time. But
30:03
Speaker 4: she needs time to think, think about what.
30:06
Speaker 1: Why isn't she upset her lover's head is in a
30:09
Speaker 1: bucket in the basement, covered by a tea towel. That
30:12
Speaker 1: from our friends at WBAYTV. Blacked out.
30:19
Speaker 4: Derek Smith. That's convenient.
30:22
Speaker 1: She's having sex with her boyfriend at one moment she
30:24
Speaker 1: blacks out and suddenly right there in the basement, his
30:28
Speaker 1: head's in a bucket.
30:29
Speaker 4: Funny how that works? She blacked out. Derek.
30:32
Speaker 1: Please tell me you haven't used the blackout defense. I
30:35
Speaker 1: bet you have, haven't you.
30:36
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it the blackout defense. I
30:38
Speaker 2: would say that, you know, chemically, there was too much
30:41
Speaker 2: stress from knowing what just happened, realizing that, you know,
30:45
Speaker 2: the person she loves is now gone forever, and she
30:47
Speaker 2: can't take the shock and passes out. You know, there's
30:50
Speaker 2: a lot of things that can lead up to that
30:52
Speaker 2: that can put a person into a situation where they
30:55
Speaker 2: no longer have control of themselves.
30:57
Speaker 3: Are the faculties they pass out. It's over.
30:59
Speaker 4: Wow, you know what.
31:00
Speaker 1: She seems perfectly in control, and I just saw her
31:03
Speaker 1: pulling a kim Kay and doing awesome selfie. Wow, she
31:08
Speaker 1: knows how to do that, but yet blacks out, blacks out,
31:13
Speaker 1: and she says, I need time to think Okay, listen
31:17
Speaker 1: to more of telor she business.
31:23
Speaker 4: As she went on, what it could go up and down?
31:32
Speaker 1: Okay from our friends at w b A Y to
31:35
Speaker 1: Chief Chris Davis joining us, Chief green Bay PD, how
31:40
Speaker 1: many times have you had a suspect black out at
31:44
Speaker 1: just the critical moment?
31:45
Speaker 5: Surprisingly often? And as you say, usually that's a pretty
31:51
Speaker 5: good red flag for investigators. This is somebody who probably
31:56
Speaker 5: did it.
31:56
Speaker 4: Chief Davis.
31:57
Speaker 1: Also, and I'm certainly not the church lady. People can
32:01
Speaker 1: have sex, however they want to have sex as long
32:03
Speaker 1: as it's consensual. But isn't it true, Chief Davis, that
32:07
Speaker 1: the Green Bay Police interrogated the girlfriend If you want
32:12
Speaker 1: to still call her that tell us your business. And
32:14
Speaker 1: she describes how she likes to strangle her boyfriend during
32:19
Speaker 1: sex with a dog chain, placing the chain around his
32:23
Speaker 1: neck and then quote walking him like a dog. When
32:26
Speaker 1: asked if the boyfriend likes it, she says, I have
32:30
Speaker 1: no idea.
32:33
Speaker 4: Did that happen?
32:34
Speaker 5: Chief, Yes, that's all true.
32:35
Speaker 1: What exactly did she say about how she liked to
32:39
Speaker 1: strangle her boyfriend with a dog chain, a metal dog chain.
32:44
Speaker 5: She made a comment to investigators that she would she
32:48
Speaker 5: and her boyfriend would use this dog chain to engage
32:51
Speaker 5: in autoeroticism where they would get him just to the
32:57
Speaker 5: point of passing out.
32:58
Speaker 4: Chief, would you repeat that place?
33:00
Speaker 5: She did tell investigators that this was something that the
33:04
Speaker 5: two of them engaged in together, that she would choke
33:10
Speaker 5: him with this dog chain until he was almost to
33:13
Speaker 5: the point of passing out.
33:15
Speaker 4: And he liked it.
33:16
Speaker 5: Uh, we'll never know, but that she believed he did.
33:20
Speaker 13: Apparently again convenient listen in the basement with the house
33:24
Speaker 13: of themselves, Theorian and Shad Business engage in sexual intercourse
33:27
Speaker 13: as well as erotic asphyxiation, something the couple has done before.
33:31
Speaker 8: In previous encounters, they have used metal chains, and she
33:34
Speaker 8: Business proceeds to use a metal dog leash to strangle Shad.
33:38
Speaker 8: Theorian sher Business continues to strangle Theorian until he starts
33:42
Speaker 8: to cough up blood, then continues to choke him with
33:44
Speaker 8: her bare hands for three to five more minutes until
33:48
Speaker 8: Theorian is dead.
33:49
Speaker 1: She stated that this was all consensual, that he had
33:57
Speaker 1: done this before, but I doubt before he started coughing
34:03
Speaker 1: up blood during the erotic.
34:07
Speaker 5: Asphyxiation, right, I doubt that as well.
34:11
Speaker 4: You're being extremely tight lipped on this and I think
34:13
Speaker 4: I know why.
34:14
Speaker 11: Listen, Chad Theorian is dead, but Taylorsha Business continues to
34:18
Speaker 11: perform for the next several hours. In the morning, shab
34:21
Speaker 11: Business positions the body on the bed and, using knives
34:24
Speaker 11: she finds in the house, including Cerretti breadknife, decapitates theory
34:28
Speaker 11: in over a bucket and a storage toat to contain
34:30
Speaker 11: the blood. Dumping the blood down the basement shower drain,
34:33
Speaker 11: shab Business removes all the organs from his body and
34:36
Speaker 11: places them in plastic bags cardboard boxes the toat used
34:39
Speaker 11: earlier for blood, and places the head in the bucket.
34:42
Speaker 4: I mean, don't you just want to book her right
34:44
Speaker 4: there and say this is done. I can't take it
34:46
Speaker 4: anymore in here?
34:48
Speaker 1: You do, in your heart, you do.
34:50
Speaker 5: But you also have a job to do as a
34:52
Speaker 5: police officer, and you know you have to anticipate an
34:56
Speaker 5: adversarial process later on in court. And that means that
35:00
Speaker 5: for as long as it takes, and in this case,
35:02
Speaker 5: this took quite a while, you have to process that
35:05
Speaker 5: entire scene and be very thorough because those small details
35:09
Speaker 5: matter when this case goes to court, and it's especially
35:13
Speaker 5: important for the family of the victim to get you know,
35:18
Speaker 5: you never get closure out of something like this, but
35:22
Speaker 5: to at least try to bring some justice to this situation.
35:26
Speaker 5: But as you learn pretty early as a police officer
35:29
Speaker 5: that sometimes you have to just suspend disbelief, remember that
35:33
Speaker 5: you have a job to do and do it the
35:35
Speaker 5: right way.
35:36
Speaker 1: In an extremely rare scenario world wide, a female tailorshi
35:42
Speaker 1: business is charged with murder and decapitation and full dismemberment
35:48
Speaker 1: of the victim, Shad.
35:50
Speaker 4: But her violence doesn't end there. Look what happens in court.
35:57
Speaker 4: Out of the blue, she attacks her lawyer. That's twenty
36:01
Speaker 4: twenty three. You have to have multiple.
36:04
Speaker 1: Sheriffs, three male sheriffs surround her. That's our friends at
36:08
Speaker 1: ABC seven in Chicago.
36:09
Speaker 4: What brought that on?
36:11
Speaker 11: Dave mack No, she didn't want to go with certain
36:15
Speaker 11: things as a defense strategy, and she didn't like the
36:17
Speaker 11: way he was representing her. So instead of talking in
36:20
Speaker 11: a normal way, she just attacked. Seems like that's her
36:23
Speaker 11: normal way of dealing with things. Just get physical in
36:25
Speaker 11: a hurry.
36:26
Speaker 4: Okay, that was in twenty twenty three.
36:27
Speaker 1: When you take a look at her posing for that selfie,
36:29
Speaker 1: it seems hard to reconcile that photo with what we're.
36:32
Speaker 4: Seeing in court.
36:33
Speaker 1: That was in twenty twenty three with that lawyer. But
36:37
Speaker 1: it ain't over yet. Okay, she's doing it again. That's
36:44
Speaker 1: for our friends at Court TV. That is a different lawyer, right.
36:47
Speaker 4: Dave Mack.
36:48
Speaker 11: She actually because as soon as she attacks the attorney,
36:52
Speaker 11: they drop away. I mean she's getting you know, attorneys
36:54
Speaker 11: provided to her, and you know, once she attacks, there's
36:58
Speaker 11: nothing they can do with her. On top of that,
37:01
Speaker 11: when the next guy comes in, he asks the judge
37:03
Speaker 11: to accuse himself from the case because well he saw
37:06
Speaker 11: the attack.
37:07
Speaker 4: Okay.
37:07
Speaker 1: And again it's not over yet. Here she's coming into
37:12
Speaker 1: court again. She's coming into court with a spit maask
37:16
Speaker 1: on and she is cuffed and she looks angry. Isn't
37:23
Speaker 1: it true, Dave Matt that she also attacked a nurse
37:27
Speaker 1: and a jail employee.
37:30
Speaker 12: She did.
37:30
Speaker 11: Nancy, She had a somehow got a staple in her arm,
37:34
Speaker 11: and they brought her to the nurses station in the
37:37
Speaker 11: jail in the prison and as soon as she's sitting there,
37:40
Speaker 11: you know, in the chair, the woman got the nurse
37:42
Speaker 11: uses the tweezers to get the staple out and the
37:46
Speaker 11: minute the tweezers touch the staple, she business attacks. She
37:49
Speaker 11: throws the nurse as far as she can, grabs a
37:52
Speaker 11: metal tray and starts swinging it, pounding on everybody a share.
37:56
Speaker 11: One of the guards there was able to put hands
37:59
Speaker 11: on her and get her in to the wall and
38:01
Speaker 11: then eventually get her on the ground, but it was
38:03
Speaker 11: it took a few minutes. It was not a quick
38:05
Speaker 11: in and out process. It took time to get her
38:08
Speaker 11: under control. She just wouldn't stop, Chief Davis.
38:10
Speaker 1: If this woman ever gets out of jail, you do
38:14
Speaker 1: know she's going to kill somebody else, right.
38:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's fair to say she's demonstrated that
38:19
Speaker 5: she's a pretty serious threat to public safety and Chief Davis.
38:24
Speaker 1: You know, when you see her, for instance, taking that selfie,
38:27
Speaker 1: she looks so tiny and petite, it's very hard to
38:31
Speaker 1: look at her and realize she is a stone cold killer, Chief,
38:37
Speaker 1: But you encounter.
38:38
Speaker 8: That every day, we do.
38:40
Speaker 5: You know, most people that we encounter in our business
38:44
Speaker 5: who get arrested are fairly normal folks. But every once
38:47
Speaker 5: in a while you run into somebody who is just
38:51
Speaker 5: a dangerous human being.
38:53
Speaker 1: This case is on appeal, God forbid a new trial
38:59
Speaker 1: is ordered, the state will again build its case. If
39:03
Speaker 1: you know or think you know anything about this case,
39:07
Speaker 1: please dial nine two zero four four eight three two
39:13
Speaker 1: hundred and tailorship business.
39:16
Speaker 4: Where you are right now in the pen.
39:20
Speaker 1: It's just a little pit stop on your way to
39:23
Speaker 1: hell an'sy Grace signing off Goodnes