Latest / Gladden Longevity Podcast / Age Reversal, Cryonics, and the Biology of Life Extension - Episode 360

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Age Reversal, Cryonics, and the Biology of Life Extension - Episode 360 · Gladden Longevity Podcast

• 0:00
  When we declare someone dead today,
• 0:01
  what we're actually doing is kind of making a bit of a mistake,
• 0:04
  just like in the past when people stop breathing,
• 0:06
  the heart stop beating. Back then we just say they were dead because
• 0:09
  we didn't know what else to do.
• 0:10
  We didn't have CPR, we didn't have defibrillation.
• 0:12
  But today, you know, we know that that boundary is is a lot more blurry than
• 0:15
  we thought. So our point is that you're not truly gone until
• 0:18
  the brain has deteriorated beyond the point at which some future technology could
• 0:21
  repair it.
• 0:22
  Hey everyone, Dr. Gladden here.
• 0:23
  I just finished a podcast interview with Max Moore,
• 0:26
  his PhD. He's a devout transhumanism gentleman,
• 0:30
  philosophically, which really is about how humans continue to expand and grow
• 0:34
  and do more and bring technology along,
• 0:37
  etc. Not terribly spiritual, but still expansive.
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  He also is very involved in biostasis and cryopreservation,
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  and it leads to some really interesting conversations around cryopreservation,
• 0:48
  where we are, what we do, things like that.
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  So I think you'll enjoy this podcast.
• 0:52
  Yeah.
• 0:52
  He went from saving hearts as a cardiologist to rewriting the entire aging playbook.
• 0:57
  Dr. Jeffrey Gladden believes 100 is the new 30 and he's got the science
• 1:02
  to back it up. This is the Gladden Longevity Podcast.
• 1:06
  Welcome
• 1:07
  everybody. Max, it's good to have you here on the Gladden Longevity Podcast.
• 1:10
  Good to be here.
• 1:10
  Yeah.
• 1:11
  Thank you. So, you know, you're in an interesting space.
• 1:14
  Tell us a little bit about how you kind of evolved into transhumanism
• 1:18
  and philosophical points of view that you've developed.
• 1:21
  Where where did that start for you?
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  Were you always very thoughtful as a child,
• 1:24
  or something you got to do with PhD or
• 1:28
  This this comes off a lot because it's a little hard to explain my interest from
• 1:31
  my background. My you know, my family was pretty conventional
• 1:33
  and didn't really think about these ideas at all.
• 1:36
  I didn't actually have a very academic family.
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  My grandfather on my mother's side was the only person to go
• 1:39
  to university before me. So yeah,
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  it's a little unusual, but I I got interested in in health in a very early
• 1:45
  age and actually explicitly in life extension.
• 1:46
  By the time I was probably thirteen or fourteen,
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  I was taking supplements and exercising,
• 1:50
  which I still do. So it became very early for me and it really
• 1:54
  form part of my basic philosophy,
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  which I call the philosophy of extropy,
• 1:57
  essentially a philosophy of overcoming limits of
• 1:59
  and continually improving ourselves.
• 2:00
  And of course life extension and health fit very much into that.
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  So I developed a kind of philosophy of transhumanism around that
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  and practicing life extension and biostasis or cryonics as a backup option,
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  in case in case I don't live long enough until we reach longevity escape velocity,
• 2:13
  which at my age of sixty two I'm not that optimistic about right now.
• 2:16
  Okay, well that's interesting.
• 2:17
  I just finished a interview with Aubrey de Grey before I jumped on this
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  and we were talking about escape philosophy.
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  He thinks it's sometime in the next ten to fifteen years,
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  so maybe sooner. So maybe that's you know,
• 2:28
  maybe there's hope for you.
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  I hope so, but I'm I'm kind of skeptical about that because I've you know,
• 2:32
  I go back into the nineteen seventies and eighties and see similar claims back then.
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  And of course Aubrey does make his claim somewhat conditional,
• 2:39
  it depends on the funding. It does seem like the funding is definitely increasing
• 2:41
  a lot these days, which is encouraging.
• 2:43
  But you know, my point is that we still haven't seen even a one year extension
• 2:48
  in maximum lifespan. Nobody's beaten the record from nineteen ninety seven,
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  it's still a hundred and twenty two years or so.
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  So, you know, it's basically asking us to believe it's gonna happen
• 2:55
  all at once quite rapidly.
• 2:56
  And that's possible, but I'm also a little skeptical about the current abilities
• 3:00
  of AI to solve fundamental problems like this.
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  So I would love to believe that,
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  'cause that put me into my seventies and I'd rather not get older.
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  But ~ I'm I'm I'm skeptical. I'm certainly gonna work very hard at staying alive
• 3:11
  and healthy, but I also have my biostasis backup option.
• 3:14
  Okay. Well let's talk about your backup option because it's an option that
• 3:18
  we haven't really talked about here on the podcast before,
• 3:20
  which is cryo preservation, if I'm not mistaken.
• 3:23
  You were involved with Alcor, I it was.
• 3:25
  Do you want to talk to us a little bit about cryo preservation,
• 3:28
  kind of how you got involved with that?
• 3:29
  Yeah, so I've actually been involved with cry cryonics,
• 3:32
  ~ or more generally biostasis.
• 3:34
  Let me just make a distinction here,
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  because biostasis is the preferred term these days.
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  It includes cryonics. Cryonics is basically human cryopreservation,
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  but there are other methods of preservation like chemical fixation which
• 3:44
  can be used instead or in combinations.
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  So biostasis is sort of the broader term.
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  But yeah, I've been involved for over forty years.
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  I started the first cryonics organization in Britain back in nineteen eighty six.
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  I also ran the Alcore Foundation,
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  the the current
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  largest cranics organization for almost ten years.
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  And I'm still active in that area.
• 4:00
  In fact, I just wrote a book on the topic that's ~ I have an agent now looking
• 4:03
  for a publisher, so hopefully it'll be out fairly soon.
• 4:05
  It's a very complex issue, but the basic idea is pretty simple.
• 4:07
  Basic idea is that when we declare Son dead today,
• 4:10
  what we're actually doing is kind of making a bit of a mistake.
• 4:13
  Just like in the past when people stopped breathing,
• 4:16
  the heart stop beating. Back then we just say they were dead because
• 4:18
  we didn't know what else to do.
• 4:19
  We didn't have CPR, we didn't have defibrillation.
• 4:21
  But today, you know, we know that that boundary is is a lot more blurry than
• 4:24
  we thought.
• 4:25
  So our point is that you're not truly gone until the brain
• 4:27
  has deteriorated beyond the point at which some future technology could repair it.
• 4:31
  And if we jump in very early, as early as possible,
• 4:34
  like preferably seconds after legal death has been declared,
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  and start cooling the patient,
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  introducing various chemicals to protect the cells,
• 4:40
  and then eventually stall them at super cold temperatures,
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  the tissues are going to be unchanging,
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  just like you know, we have millions of people walking around today
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  who are cryopreserved as embryos at some point.
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  We have cryopreserved skin and heart valves and corneas and so on.
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  So it's just more complex. We can't re we can't reverse that process today because
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  it
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  requires a very rapid warming,
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  which is difficult in large bodies of tissue.
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  But we're making progress along that way.
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  And we have some very direct evidence that under good conditions that
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  we are actually preserving the ultra structure of the brain in which
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  our memories and personality reside.
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  So it's certainly not a guarantee,
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  and I always emphasize that it's a long shot.
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  There's no guarantee here, no no promises,
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  but it seems like something worth doing if otherwise you're
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  not gonna continue living if you're still enjoying life.
• 5:16
  There's
• 5:16
  an interesting point you make that everybody is familiar now with,
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  you know, in vitro fertilization,
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  cryo, storage of embryos, right?
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  People will say, Well, I have four or five or six embryos in storage,
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  or you know, this kind of thing,
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  right? And we really kind of take that for granted,
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  as it's just, you know, matter of fact.
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  It sounds like what you're saying though is that the difference is that it's easier
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  to uniformly warm an embryo than it is to uniformly warm a larger body.
• 5:42
  Is that right?
• 5:43
  Or a slice of tissue, yeah. So currently the state of the art
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  in terms of reversibility, and you can see this at twenty first century medicine
• 5:49
  in California, University of Minnesota,
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  has repeatedly and reliably managed to cryo preserve rat kidneys
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  and then reworn them successfully so they function.
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  And twenty first century medicine even more difficult with with rabbit kidneys,
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  which are larger. So we're talking about home and weight million organs which have
• 6:02
  already been reversibly cryo preserved.
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  So if someone comes along and says,
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  Well, you know, cryo next is crazy that it's impossible to cryo preserve the brain,
• 6:08
  well
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  They've got to provide a good argument because we can see that we
• 6:11
  can already do this with organs.
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  But to do a whole organism, yeah,
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  the problem is you have to re warm at a very rapid rate.
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  it seems strange, but there's a phenomenon called recrystallization.
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  Essentially, as you warm up from cryogenic temperatures,
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  ice crystals can reform and do a lot of damage.
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  So you have to warm very rapidly.
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  And there's various you know, radio frequency,
• 6:27
  nano warming, there's a number of different methods being researched.
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  But that's the reason why today we couldn't bring back someone who's being
• 6:32
  cryopreserved, even if they're under very
• 6:34
  cryobaser under very good conditions.
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  But it doesn't mean that, you know,
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  in the future as we have better repair technology,
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  maybe some kind of man medical nanotechnology.
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  Hopefully we can go in there, fix the problems.
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  And of course there's no point doing this until we fix the aging problem because
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  you know if you get cryobreserve when you're ninety years old,
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  you're obviously not going to last too long.
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  So you'd have to await 'til we've actually beat the aging problem too.
• 6:52
  Sure. Well it is interesting. If you're heating them up,
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  they would go through a phase where they would develop the ice crystals.
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  Whereas with the preservatives you have they're kind of in a just a static state.
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  I can imagine if you overheated them too,
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  you might vaporize water also,
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  potentially. Or
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  Yeah. Well you've got to you've definitely got to optimize the rate.
• 7:09
  Yeah. But but you know, we're getting a lot of ~ a lot of knowledge because there's
• 7:12
  a lot of research going on to this area.
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  If we could r reliably cryopreserve human organs,
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  for instance, it would save you know tens of thousands of lives a year,
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  at least maybe it's in hundreds of thousands,
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  just in this country alone, because right now it's very hard for you to
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  get a a kidney or a heart or a liver across the country rapidly,
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  keeping it cool in time to be transplanted.
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  But if you could actually cryopreserve them,
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  keep them in a cryobank in the hospital,
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  pull them out as needed, that would be you know a massive benefit.
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  So we're relying on the same kind of research that's advancing that.
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  So it's, you know, it's it's it's very much part of the mainstream.
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  It's just that we have a bit more of a a vision of how we could apply this
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  to the whole person.
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  Yeah, you're probably familiar with the company X Therma.
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  Yeah. It's in involved in preservation of organs for transplant and ~ stem cells
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  and things like that. Yes.
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  So
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  no, Shawshe, I think is one of the leading people in that company.
• 7:58
  Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's right.
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  Yeah. So that's interesting. They're working in that area.
• 8:02
  So tell us a little bit about your philosophy of continued expansion for the human.
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  I don't know what you know about us,
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  but our view of longevity is that it represents the greatest opportunity that
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  humanity has ever had to actually upregulate or upgrade the human experience.
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  It's not just extra years, right?
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  So the goal for us is, you know,
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  to develop a thirty year old body and a three hundred or a three thousand year
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  old mind.
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  Right, with all the wisdom, insight,
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  perspective, et cetera, that goes along with that.
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  Tell us a little bit about your philosophy of continued improvement.
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  How does that kind of play out for you?
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  But
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  I I call it the philosophy of extropy,
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  which is a term that my friend Tom Bell came up with,
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  which is fit it very nicely because of course in physics you have
• 8:44
  the idea of entropy, which means in a close yeah,
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  in a closed system when there's no no no energy coming in from the outside,
• 8:50
  that system will tend to decay and fall towards disorder.
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  Of course the earth is not a closed system because we have
• 8:54
  the sun coming in, that's why we have life here.
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  But the I so it's it's not meant as a technical term.
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  It's sort of it's not a technical opposite of entropy,
• 9:00
  but it basically is sort of a metaphor for increasing energy,
• 9:03
  vitality, intelligence, all the good things in life.
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  And it it's essentially, you know,
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  it's a philosophy that says we should question these limits.
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  Just because we've always had aging and death in the past doesn't mean
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  we always will know the future,
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  right? We've always had slavery for
• 9:14
  Thousands of years too. We didn't have democracy for thousands of years.
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  So things do change. And, you know,
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  very much what the perspective you you put forward,
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  we can do something about aging,
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  we should, because imagine having a life where you remain absolutely vital
• 9:26
  and perfectly good health, perhaps even better health than we ha
• 9:28
  we have today possible, but you're acquiring knowledge and wisdom over hundreds
• 9:31
  or thousands of years and becoming what I like to call an ultra mature person.
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  You're not gonna be static because we're gonna be changing
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  and improving ourselves in various ways.
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  And a lot of people just kind of scratch their heads about that because they have
• 9:41
  very static view of life. They seem to think that
• 9:43
  You know, you're gonna run out of things to do.
• 9:44
  I recently debated this guy, Ezekiel Manuel.
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  I don't if you you've come across this fellow.
• 9:50
  He was one of the architects of Obamacare,
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  he's ~ the most widely cited bioethicist,
• 9:54
  apparently. And he wrote a piece for I'm not sure it was Time magazine,
• 9:57
  one of those magazines, basically arguing that we should let ourselves
• 10:00
  die at the age of seventy-five.
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  And I debated this guy earlier this year.
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  It's just a very strange view to me that,
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  you know, my wife is already seventy-six,
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  so she takes offense at that suggestion.
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  I'm not that far away. People seem to have this very narrow view of of
• 10:12
  Life and possibility. Like you're not gonna run out of things to do
• 10:14
  in a hundred years or a thousand years.
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  I could write now right now sit down and write down things to keep me busy for,
• 10:19
  you know, many hundreds of years.
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  And by then there'll be many new things to do.
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  So I really find it strange that unless someone's,
• 10:25
  you know, really depressed or unhappy or disappointed in their life,
• 10:28
  why would you not want to carry on living given we're talking about good health?
• 10:31
  Of course people would make that mistake.
• 10:32
  They think we're talking about keeping people alive in misery.
• 10:35
  No, it's not what we're talking about at all.
• 10:37
  That's right. Yeah. It's interesting when you ask people,
• 10:39
  do they want to live to be a hundred?
• 10:40
  Most people say no, because their concept of what it would be like to
• 10:44
  be a hundred is, you know, not a pretty picture,
• 10:46
  right? So, but if you say what would it be like if you could live like you were 30,
• 10:50
  you know, for the rest of your life,
• 10:51
  then everybody wants that, right?
• 10:53
  Everybody wants youthfulness. And we can relate to that.
• 10:55
  We know what that is. You know,
• 10:56
  it's interesting. I think we're coming to an interesting point around purpose
• 11:00
  and meaning, right? I think the reason
• 11:02
  and maybe AI will have an impact on this if jobs are removed or things like that.
• 11:07
  There could be a crisis of meaning for many people because for many people their
• 11:11
  job, their families, raising their kids,
• 11:14
  those provide meaning for them.
• 11:16
  It sounds like for you that you found a sense of purpose and meaning beyond
• 11:20
  the routine things. I don't know if you want to speak to that at all.
• 11:23
  Yeah, I'm actually fairly optimistic.
• 11:25
  I I think that, you know, people might argue that AI is is different than everything
• 11:29
  else, but there have been lots of technologies throughout history that have
• 11:31
  displaced people from various jobs.
• 11:33
  But we've never actually you know,
• 11:34
  but we always get new activities.
• 11:35
  There's no fixed amount, it's kind of an economic fallacy,
• 11:37
  there's a fixed amount of stuff that we want or fixed amount of labor.
• 11:40
  So I think as long as we're flexible and willing to do some different things,
• 11:43
  there's no particular reason why we shouldn't have work if we want it.
• 11:45
  It may be that, you know, AI is a
• 11:47
  if if they are super productive and super intelligent,
• 11:49
  which I don't actually see happening in the near future with the current forms
• 11:52
  of of AI. But even if even if they are,
• 11:54
  it may be that we don't have to work if you want a decent standard of living,
• 11:57
  but people will still want to.
• 11:58
  And I think there'll be plenty of room for people to collaborate with AIs to do,
• 12:01
  you know, much greater work than they could do alone.
• 12:03
  So I and also the current figures,
• 12:05
  you know, despite I think head of Microsoft or one of the top people
• 12:08
  at Microsoft said a little while ago that by ~ twenty twenty eight or something,
• 12:12
  like half of workers in these industries will be unemployed.
• 12:14
  So far there's absolutely zero sign of that happening.
• 12:16
  I mean it's that
• 12:17
  There's no r increase in unemployment.
• 12:19
  So you know, we've heard these kind of fears for a long time.
• 12:21
  I tend to take a little more optimistic view as long as we're flexible.
• 12:23
  Yeah, I know that some companies actually let a bunch of people go
• 12:26
  and then brought a bunch of people back because they realized that
• 12:29
  AI couldn't couldn't do what humans could still do,
• 12:32
  right, in a way. Nonetheless, I think I think humans are kind of at their best when
• 12:36
  they're creating, either creating or co creating,
• 12:39
  right? And so if you have something that you find to be a creative outlet,
• 12:43
  I think this is key in going forward,
• 12:45
  whether it's music or sports or art or
• 12:49
  writing books or thinking about things or connecting with people,
• 12:53
  creating adventures with other people,
• 12:54
  all those things kind of factor into this creation process.
• 12:58
  But if you're if you're listening to this and you're wondering,
• 13:01
  well, geez, you know, if I lose my job and I'm gonna live a long time
• 13:04
  and be youthful, well, what's the meaning of life?
• 13:05
  Well I think it's it's about finding ways to create and contribute.
• 13:09
  I think that's provides a lot of meaning for people.
• 13:12
  Yeah. We you know, throughout most of our history we've been sort of used
• 13:14
  to getting meaning from roles that we're basically born into.
• 13:17
  You know, you're born as a farmer or as an artisan or as a feudal lord
• 13:20
  or whatever it is, and wasn't really a lot of choice.
• 13:22
  So you had to sort of make meaning out of that.
• 13:24
  But today 'cause we could we have a far more choice in what we do,
• 13:27
  what our occupation is, our interests,
• 13:29
  our hobbies. So yeah, I agree.
• 13:30
  Find something that really engage you and and push at that.
• 13:34
  And it and it doesn't mean it has to be easy.
• 13:35
  I think you know, part of our problem with our current culture
• 13:37
  is everybody wants things to be easy.
• 13:39
  You know, we don't
• 13:39
  People shouldn't face any consequences.
• 13:41
  They shouldn't have to, you work hard.
• 13:42
  They shouldn't have to exercise.
• 13:43
  There's there's a lot of unhealthy thinking.
• 13:45
  I'm a little more Nietzschean in my philosophy.
• 13:47
  I think it's you know you need a vigorous life,
• 13:49
  you need challenges, you need to push against those challenges to grow.
• 13:51
  And that's also gives life meaning.
• 13:53
  So I'm not I'm not favoring a life of sort of just retirement and doing nothing
• 13:56
  and just being waited on by AIs.
• 13:58
  I don't think that would be very mean.
• 13:59
  Meaningful.
• 14:00
  Yeah, exactly. So are you in a community of people where you kind
• 14:04
  of share these same principles?
• 14:06
  Let's call them the transhumanism principles.
• 14:08
  Is there like a community of folks that you're connected to?
• 14:11
  Yeah, well
• 14:11
  we had we used to X Trip Institute,
• 14:13
  but we closed that down quite a while ago.
• 14:14
  Although currently we're thinking of restarting something 'cause we
• 14:17
  had so much interest from people looking back to the nineteen and the eighties,
• 14:20
  early nineties, when we had a lot of people together.
• 14:22
  So we've had people filming documentaries over here.
• 14:24
  So we'll probably start something.
• 14:25
  But you know, there's a whole bunch of sort of informal network.
• 14:28
  There's Humanity Plus that my wife pretty much runs,
• 14:30
  which is a transhumanist organization.
• 14:31
  There are you our blogs and so on.
• 14:33
  So we discuss these ideas quite a lot.
• 14:34
  But most of the
• 14:35
  There are also conferences, quite a few conferences happen internationally,
• 14:38
  both on transhumanism and in the biostasis space.
• 14:41
  When you're biostasis, people tend to be transhumanists because
• 14:43
  it wouldn't make sense not to be really if you're gonna do that long.
• 14:46
  So yeah, it's a pretty strong community.
• 14:47
  I I've spent most of my time right now writing,
• 14:49
  doing podcasts, getting the book published.
• 14:51
  So I very much, you know, think about the ideas and communicate them.
• 14:54
  But I'm right now I'm preparing for a debate in in Qatar and
• 14:57
  October 15th, where we'll be discussing the Pope's views on AI.
• 15:00
  And interestingly enough, that the Pope wrote The Encyclical on AI
• 15:03
  has like a 40,000-word statement.
• 15:05
  So I'm studying that right now,
• 15:06
  making the usual kinds of objections that I think are largely mistaken.
• 15:09
  But ~ yeah, I think the future's gonna be really interesting
• 15:12
  and generally probably quite good.
• 15:14
  It's not just that people think of ill health and reject the idea
• 15:17
  of life extension because of you know assuming ill health.
• 15:19
  I think another major factor is the culture and the media have promoted this view
• 15:23
  of the future as as a horrible place.
• 15:25
  You know, AI is gonna hunt us down or
• 15:28
  there'll be overpopulation or there'll be too much pollution or
• 15:31
  too much global warming. But you know,
• 15:32
  throughout history we've solved more problems we've created,
• 15:34
  we're better off, we live longer,
• 15:35
  we're healthier, we're freer. And there's no particular reason why that should
• 15:38
  end in my view. People tend to take a very narrow view of things,
• 15:41
  don't understand how how economics works,
• 15:43
  how technology works. And these are problems that,
• 15:45
  you know, there are problems in the world,
• 15:47
  but we overcome them. And there's no reason to think that life is gonna be,
• 15:50
  you know, the the kind of dystopia you see in so much science fiction.
• 15:54
  Yeah. No, it's an interesting point.
• 15:56
  Well, there certainly are dystopian possibilities out there.
• 15:59
  There's no doubt. I mean, an asteroid could hit us or,
• 16:01
  you know, things like that. A volcano could change the weather in a big way,
• 16:04
  or a series of volcanoes, earthquakes,
• 16:07
  things like that. To your point,
• 16:08
  life is resilient, you know, if it's ever been proven to be one thing,
• 16:12
  it's actually incredibly resilient.
• 16:13
  I think it'd be almost be difficult to exterminate life from the planet apart from
• 16:17
  the planet being swallowed by the sun,
• 16:19
  right? Yeah.
• 16:20
  A lot of people talk about extinction risk these days or existential risk,
• 16:22
  which I I think is largely overblown.
• 16:24
  It's kind of it's like people are trying to one up each other that th they
• 16:27
  got the biggest crisis and this one is gonna destroy everybody completely.
• 16:30
  But I as you say, I think that's actually quite hard to do.
• 16:33
  I particularly find it implausible that AI would try to do that.
• 16:36
  So what are you finding to be some of the ways in which you're challenging yourself
• 16:40
  right now? What challenges have you laid out for yourself?
• 16:42
  Well, writing the book
• 16:43
  was challenge actually. That took a some sustained work.
• 16:46
  yeah. Yeah, pretty much every day.
• 16:49
  Challenge ch challenge myself at the gym.
• 16:51
  I like to work out pretty hard.
• 16:53
  I've always been fond of doing resistance training,
• 16:55
  but I'm doing more aerobic exercise,
• 16:56
  which I don't particularly enjoy,
• 16:57
  but make doing sprints is actually not so bad.
• 16:59
  And I realised I was getting stiff.
• 17:01
  I hadn't really taken care of my flexibility,
• 17:03
  so I spend more time stretching now too,
• 17:05
  which also is not particularly fun,
• 17:06
  but I need I know I need to do that.
• 17:07
  I I spend a lot of time
• 17:09
  looking at the longevity evidence,
• 17:11
  you know, what can we actually do to not die so early,
• 17:13
  even if we can't extend maximum lifespan right now.
• 17:15
  And of course that's that's a very difficult issue,
• 17:17
  as I'm sure you're aware, there's there's a lot of conflicting evidence,
• 17:20
  people making claims that could be hard to assess.
• 17:22
  But one thing I did about a little over ten years ago,
• 17:24
  which I don't know if you've had anybody on the show talk about this.
• 17:26
  You might want to do so if not,
• 17:28
  I was in the what are called the trim trials.
• 17:30
  You're in trim? Yeah. Yeah. I know I know Greg Fay.
• 17:33
  Yeah, so I was I was actually patient number one there,
• 17:35
  did the first trim trial, which basically meant taking growth hormone
• 17:38
  for a year along with metformin and DHEA.
• 17:40
  Right. And we had our went to Stanford Medical School and had our thymus scanned
• 17:44
  and indeed the cortex actually regrew,
• 17:46
  regenerated. So presumably my immune system is now doing pretty well.
• 17:49
  I never caught COVID, so maybe that's a sign of that.
• 17:51
  Yeah, let me interrupt you for a second.
• 17:52
  So for the audience to understand,
• 17:54
  the trim trial was set up by Greg Fay and his hypothesis was that a lot
• 17:59
  of aging is related to involution of the thymus gland,
• 18:02
  which is this gland that sits below the mediastinum here in the center
• 18:05
  of your chest, at the base of your throat.
• 18:07
  And that when that involutes then,
• 18:09
  you know, the immune system has trouble producing new
• 18:13
  T cells, thymus cells, if you will.
• 18:15
  And so then you're left with a an aging immune system,
• 18:18
  and what you've got is what you've got,
• 18:20
  and eventually it runs out. So his theory was that if he could rejuvenate
• 18:24
  the thymus gland, then it would enable the immune system to rejuvenate
• 18:29
  as well and be more youthful. What they demonstrated was that they turned back
• 18:33
  epigenetic age, I think it was a year or a year and a half.
• 18:36
  Year and a half, yeah. Yeah. Within one year of giving growth hormone DHEA,
• 18:41
  which is a
• 18:42
  a precursor hormone and then metformin to counterbalance any blood sugar issues
• 18:47
  brought on by the growth hormone.
• 18:49
  It also activates AMPK, which is has a longevity benefit in and of itself.
• 18:54
  So and counteracts the the mTOR activation by the growth hormone.
• 18:58
  So anyway, it's kind of a balanced biochemical approach to
• 19:01
  to trying to rejuvenate the thymus and the immune system.
• 19:04
  And we know that one of the one of the main reasons that we die is from immunosines,
• 19:09
  where the immune system is no longer capable of responding to new challenges,
• 19:12
  either clearing out taking out the trash,
• 19:14
  natural killer cells can't prune senescent cells properly,
• 19:17
  or you can't respond to the next virus that might show up on the planet,
• 19:21
  right? Or you can't kill off the mu mutation in the cell that could turn into
• 19:25
  cancer. So
• 19:26
  Well you break a leg, go into hospital or broken hip or whatever,
• 19:28
  and you catch an infection in the hospital and you have no immune system
• 19:31
  to fight it.
• 19:31
  Yes, ~ exactly. So you so you did trim one,
• 19:35
  did you do trim two also? No not.
• 19:37
  Yeah, like I I think it's been quite expensive to follow up.
• 19:40
  I got in what it was relatively inexpensive early on.
• 19:42
  But I would the interesting thing,
• 19:43
  you know, you mentioned the the aging clock reversal.
• 19:45
  Yeah, so a few years after the trial,
• 19:47
  Greg sent the blood samples to Steve Horvath,
• 19:50
  the leading expert in aging clocks.
• 19:51
  And he said, Yes, you've got like a year and a half younger over the course
• 19:54
  of the year, which is quite remarkable.
• 19:55
  That was all in the last three months.
• 19:56
  So if I do this again, I would like to talk about maybe doing it
• 19:59
  for eighteen months instead of the twelve and see if we get a larger age reversal.
• 20:02
  And if that was repeated. But that was that was a a very nice bonus.
• 20:05
  Yeah. Well we're able to get a much bigger epigenetic age reversals now,
• 20:09
  just with things that we do here in the clinic.
• 20:11
  So it kind of paved the way for that kind of thing.
• 20:14
  It is interesting to to think about rejuvenating the thymus and I wonder
• 20:19
  if you've had your ~ another follow up MRI to see if the thymus
• 20:22
  is involuted again or where it might be.
• 20:25
  I
• 20:25
  haven't thought actually I'm I'm thinking about doing a whole body RI.
• 20:28
  I'm kind of debating back and forth as to whether I want to do that or not.
• 20:30
  But I don't know if that will be sufficient.
• 20:32
  I may need a more special MRI.
• 20:33
  I know at Stanford Medical School it was a it wasn't just a regular MRI,
• 20:36
  it was you know special expertise needed for that.
• 20:39
  But yeah, that would be good to know if it's been maintained 'cause it's been over
• 20:42
  it's been how long is it about eleven years now,
• 20:43
  I think? No, it's
• 20:44
  Five years.
• 20:45
  been like eleven years. It was like two thousand and fifteen or sixteen
• 20:48
  I think I did that. ~
• 20:49
  Okay.
• 20:50
  Okay. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool.
• 20:52
  What else are you doing for your own longevity?
• 20:54
  Well, you know, I think the the main things you do right now are
• 20:57
  the boring old things that take a lot of work.
• 20:59
  It's the exercise, it's diet, it's good sleep,
• 21:01
  you know, controlling stress. That's probably a thing I'm I'm worst at
• 21:05
  but I make sure I get my sleep,
• 21:06
  my exercise. ~ diet 'cause even diet is controversial as to which is the best diet.
• 21:11
  That's something I'm constantly,
• 21:11
  you know, questioning and trying to work out.
• 21:13
  But to me it's pretty pretty clear that avoiding a lot of sort of junk foods
• 21:17
  and empty sugar and empty calories,
• 21:19
  empty carbs
• 21:21
  That's a pretty good idea. Whether it should be high protein or not,
• 21:23
  that's that's more controversial.
• 21:24
  Whether you should eat meat or not is also more controversial.
• 21:27
  A lot of the anti meat stuff seems to me to be based on processed
• 21:29
  red meat rather than you know,
• 21:31
  a grass fed steak, which is actually extremely nutritious.
• 21:34
  But that's you that's a controversial issue.
• 21:35
  But I think just just by getting rid of the junk and controlling calories makes
• 21:39
  a huge difference in itself.
• 21:40
  Yeah, I think I think those are all important things.
• 21:42
  Sleep is a big deal, of course.
• 21:44
  I think stress management is really,
• 21:46
  ~ really foundational. We see that all the hallmarks of aging
• 21:50
  are actually accelerated by stress and they're decelerated when people can
• 21:54
  go into a more flow state, zen state,
• 21:57
  ~ kind of live their life from that perspective.
• 21:59
  Do you bring any of that into your into your practices?
• 22:02
  Any meditation or stress management things that you do?
• 22:05
  Not as much as I should, honestly.
• 22:07
  ~ I'm not a very good meditator.
• 22:08
  I'm not very patient. So I actually tried transcendental meditation when
• 22:12
  I was about, I think, eleven or twelve.
• 22:13
  My Latin teacher at school was an instructor and two of us decided to do it,
• 22:16
  but I was never very good at it.
• 22:17
  I just c can't sit still that well.
• 22:19
  But you know, I think exercise is very good for stress.
• 22:22
  You know, if I'm feeling, you know,
• 22:23
  worked up a go for a good workout,
• 22:25
  I feel better. So that really helps.
• 22:26
  But yeah, I I could I could probably do better along those lines.
• 22:30
  Is there anything that you're looking to for the audience to understand more about,
• 22:34
  you know, preserving people when they die,
• 22:36
  things that they should be aware of if they're interested in pursuing that
• 22:39
  or things that you would caution them about or encourage them about?
• 22:43
  What are your thoughts there? Well
• 22:44
  I would point them to the to our blog,
• 22:46
  biostasis substack dot com, where we discuss this in yeah,
• 22:49
  considerable details, everything from basic stuff to deep dives into research into
• 22:53
  many different topics. But what I would suggest is it's worth looking into,
• 22:56
  especially as you get older and your your risk goes up.
• 22:58
  You know, we've had people choreobreserved in their twenties and thirties,
• 23:01
  you just don't know when things might happen.
• 23:03
  A lot of people don't look at it closely because they've they've you know,
• 23:06
  the media tends to present it as something for rich people.
• 23:08
  Like you have to be a millionaire to do this,
• 23:10
  which is not true at all. I started as a poor graduate student and I still do it.
• 23:13
  Most people use life insurance to pay for it.
• 23:15
  And there's quite a lot of different options as you know,
• 23:17
  the relatively high cost options like alcohol,
• 23:19
  whole body, around 220,000, you can just do the brain eighty hundred thousand.
• 23:23
  There are other options actually less expensive than that.
• 23:25
  so it's not, you know, if you're paying with life insurance,
• 23:27
  it's not actually something only ri rich people can do.
• 23:29
  So I would disabuse people of that mistaken notion.
• 23:32
  And it's really to me, it's just an extension of emergency medicine.
• 23:34
  Just like today when someone heart stops,
• 23:36
  they stop beating.
• 23:37
  We do defibrillate them, we do CPR and so on.
• 23:39
  We don't want to give up on them.
• 23:41
  So our view is that when someone is declared legally dead today,
• 23:43
  they're not truly dead in you know an informational sense.
• 23:46
  We need to preserve them, stop them getting worse,
• 23:48
  and give more advanced future technologies a shot at repairing
• 23:50
  the problem and giving them more life.
• 23:51
  So it doesn't seem to be particularly radical from that point of view.
• 23:54
  It's actually kind of conservative medicine.
• 23:55
  We're not throwing away the person.
• 23:57
  I think, you know, in the future we'll look back on the present and
• 23:59
  see people who just put people in the earth to be eaten by worms
• 24:02
  and bacteria or incinerated them and just scratch our heads and go,
• 24:05
  why?
• 24:06
  Why did you do that when you could have given them a chance?
• 24:08
  Yeah, it's interesting, right?
• 24:09
  Just like people would go back and say,
• 24:11
  Why did they cut that limb off when it could have been salvaged today?
• 24:14
  Right. But it's the only option that people really were familiar with.
• 24:17
  Yeah.
• 24:18
  And
• 24:18
  I would also suggest that yeah,
• 24:19
  if people are interested in this,
• 24:20
  they should not only read about it carefully,
• 24:21
  but go visit the organizations,
• 24:23
  like you know, Alcor, Cryonics Institute in Michigan,
• 24:25
  Alcor's here in Arizona. They both welcome people to do tours,
• 24:28
  you can see how it works, you know,
• 24:29
  there's nothing hidden about it.
• 24:30
  You can read the case reports,
• 24:31
  it's all very open. So yeah, if people are not familiar with it,
• 24:33
  think it's kind of strange thing.
• 24:35
  I think educating yourself, going to visit,
• 24:36
  I think will answer a lot of those questions.
• 24:38
  And it's not an excuse. It's not an excuse not to be a help not to be healthy,
• 24:41
  by the way. You know, it it's there are some people who
• 24:44
  make arrangements for cryonics like,
• 24:45
  that's it, I'm I'm taken care of.
• 24:47
  But no, you've got to take good care of yourself still.
• 24:49
  Not only because you want to put off being cryopreserved as long
• 24:51
  as possible to enjoy life, but because the longer you can put it off,
• 24:54
  the better the process is likely to be.
• 24:56
  You know, we learn as we go along.
• 24:57
  We get better at cryopreserving people.
• 24:58
  Sure. So if you can buy another ten years,
• 25:00
  you'll be better conditioned. Plus when if you actually do,
• 25:03
  you know, legally die, you really want your vascular system to be in good shape.
• 25:07
  Because we ha we're gonna have to remove all the blood from the body,
• 25:09
  replace it with a cryo protection solution.
• 25:11
  And if you haven't taken care of yourself,
• 25:12
  if your vascular system is
• 25:14
  blocked up and and no good, we're not gonna perfuse the brain properly
• 25:16
  and there's gonna be a lot of ice crystal formation which is gonna do damage.
• 25:19
  So there's a very strong reason to,
• 25:21
  you know, not just sit back happy and satisfied,
• 25:24
  but to take care of your health.
• 25:25
  So you wanna be in great cardiovascular health in order to
• 25:28
  be cryo preserved optimally.
• 25:30
  Yeah. I'll give you I'll give you an example,
• 25:32
  for instance. Fred Chamberlain,
• 25:33
  who was the co-founder of Alcor back in nineteen seventy two,
• 25:35
  he was living in Florida, he got prostate cancer and it was,
• 25:38
  you know, too advanced and metastatized.
• 25:40
  So we were able to get him over to Arizona with some difficulty,
• 25:43
  get him on the plane. He he checked into the hospice there and we watched
• 25:46
  him for several days as he refused food and water,
• 25:48
  because that's any way you can legally you know end your life here.
• 25:50
  And then we got him quite a preserved and he got a really good perfusion because
• 25:54
  ~ although he'd had cancer, you know,
• 25:56
  which would ravage his system.
• 25:57
  He'd always taken really good care of himself.
• 25:59
  He was lean, his his vascular system was in great shape in his seventies,
• 26:01
  and he got a very good cryopreservation,
• 26:03
  which we know because we do C D scans of patients.
• 26:06
  And we can actually through the C D scan we can see how well we've removed
• 26:09
  the blood, blood and fluids from the brain and replaced it with
• 26:11
  the cryoprotectin solution. And his look really good.
• 26:13
  And that's not always the case.
• 26:14
  Interesting. Yeah. Well that is very interesting.
• 26:17
  So is that routine that you would do a C T scan after you've cro preserved?
• 26:20
  It
• 26:20
  is now, yeah. It it it was introduced when I was a president of Alcor
• 26:24
  and we started doing it then and Alcor now has its own CTU scanner.
• 26:26
  Tomorrow Biostasis, the largest European Chronicles Organization,
• 26:29
  does it for every patient. Chronics Institute does not,
• 26:32
  and and we've been kind of pushing them to do that,
• 26:33
  but they're sort of the lower budget operation,
• 26:35
  so it's more difficult for them to afford it.
• 26:37
  But that's not actually CTs can also be useful
• 26:40
  done before the procedure, because then that way you can identify surgical work
• 26:44
  people who have their chests sewn or something which could change their surgical
• 26:47
  access. It might might show you,
• 26:48
  you know, various problems you have to work around and during and afterwards.
• 26:51
  But there are other kinds of feedback too.
• 26:53
  So we did a case with Dr. Stephen Coles ten years ago,
• 26:56
  but it's finally got published this year in which we actually took samples
• 26:59
  of brain tissue, which of course you can do non-destructively as as people
• 27:02
  do in brain surgery. And actually Greg Fay was involved in this work too,
• 27:05
  along with other people.
• 27:07
  examined the the the the brain with ~ electron microscopy,
• 27:10
  differential scanning calorimetry,
• 27:11
  various other methods, and was able to show in published peer reviewed work that
• 27:15
  the structure of the brain looked extremely well intact.
• 27:18
  You the the neuropills, the neural bodies,
• 27:20
  the connections, everything looked beautifully well preserved,
• 27:22
  which is some of the first really direct evidence that's not we're
• 27:26
  not just hand waving and h hoping about this.
• 27:27
  We actually have very clear evidence that under good conditions
• 27:30
  we are preserving those structures.
• 27:32
  Have you taken I know we talked about embryos,
• 27:34
  have we have you taken smaller animals,
• 27:37
  let's say, and cryo preserved them or put them into biostasis and then brought them
• 27:42
  back? No
• 27:43
  We wouldn't better bring them back.
• 27:44
  Like people are often saying, Why don't you bring back a mouse?
• 27:46
  It's actually very difficult because you know the different organ systems have
• 27:49
  different requirements and different warming rates.
• 27:50
  So your organs right now, we're getting pretty good at organs,
• 27:54
  but any kind of whole organism bigger than microscopic is difficult.
• 27:58
  We have done microscopic organisms.
• 27:59
  Actually, my wife Natasha B. Demore was involved in this at Alcore some
• 28:02
  ten or eleven years ago, where we took she took C.
• 28:04
  elegans, the little microscopic worms that have a kind of a sinuous shape.
• 28:08
  They're rather beautiful to watch.
• 28:09
  And
• 28:09
  Supported a basic task, which basically used ~ benzaldehyde as
• 28:13
  a chemical gradient so they would know which direction to go for their food,
• 28:16
  go this way, not that way, and they could learn that task.
• 28:18
  They were then cryo-preserved,
• 28:19
  kept them for all, rewarmed, and then tested,
• 28:22
  and she was able to demonstrate they actually retained the memory,
• 28:24
  which is actually the first direct test of memory.
• 28:26
  It's a very simple memory and a simple organism,
• 28:28
  but it was a proof of principle.
• 28:29
  But now we're kind of doing other work with neural tissues.
• 28:32
  Like there's a you might have heard about the work of these researchers who've used
• 28:36
  neural tissue to
• 28:37
  play Pong or to run a flight simulator,
• 28:39
  for instance. So one really interesting study that I'm I think
• 28:42
  is actually being funded would be to take this neural tissue,
• 28:45
  train it to do something like that,
• 28:46
  a simple task, try to preserve it,
• 28:48
  bring it back and test it and see if it's retained that's that function,
• 28:51
  which would be a very good sign that you've preserved it.
• 28:53
  So you know there's a lot of a lot of evidence based work going on
• 28:56
  to support what we're doing.
• 28:58
  Yeah, it goes on in nature also.
• 29:00
  I saw something really interesting about caterpillars and butterflies,
• 29:03
  that they could teach a caterpillar something about something to avoid because
• 29:08
  it was a noxious stimulus or something like that.
• 29:10
  And then it would go into the cocoon.
• 29:12
  Of course, it you know, completely almost deconstructs itself
• 29:15
  to reconstruct itself back into a butterfly,
• 29:18
  but they showed that the butterfly had r retained that memory.
• 29:21
  really?
• 29:21
  Interesting. Which which is interesting,
• 29:23
  right? So even in nature there's an ability for that to be
• 29:26
  It's kinda surprising 'cause as you said they really sort
• 29:28
  of look slightly completely disintegrate and then reforms.
• 29:31
  Totally. It was very surprising,
• 29:33
  but they they showed that it that they could do that.
• 29:35
  So yeah, interesting stuff. And then of course there's epigenetic information
• 29:39
  to get passed down, right? So it's another sort of form of memory.
• 29:43
  And you can also, you know, back up your records,
• 29:44
  'cause let's assume that you don't get perfectly preserved,
• 29:47
  maybe there'll be some memory loss,
• 29:48
  which to me is not, you know, is not that I don't have a good memory anyway.
• 29:51
  I have to keep records of things.
• 29:52
  So some people have great memories.
• 29:54
  But if you have you know, as we're doing today,
• 29:56
  more and more photographic and video records and written records,
• 29:58
  you could even b have like a digital clone,
• 30:00
  which would be a sort of a backup where you could use that to interpolate,
• 30:03
  filling gaps in any memories. So that's sort of another aspect of it too.
• 30:07
  But hopefully if you do it right,
• 30:08
  and to me that means getting, you know,
• 30:10
  preserved.
• 30:11
  as soon as possible at the point of legal death.
• 30:13
  So how quickly can that actually occur?
• 30:15
  Let's say somebody decides to pass away in hospice.
• 30:18
  Does that mean that the team is there actually poised and ready to
• 30:22
  go the moment that they are pronounced or
• 30:25
  It's all possible, yeah. So there's a it really depends on on the circumstances.
• 30:28
  But I the best way to do it, ~ as I was gonna say,
• 30:31
  there's a couple of cases I know Alcal's already done in Death with Dignity States,
• 30:34
  where basically you can ~ and this is what happened.
• 30:37
  I came in on Monday morning one guy w ~ someone was on the phone
• 30:40
  to our membership person and said that he was he wanted to go like
• 30:43
  in two days' time. And we No, no,
• 30:45
  you can't do that. We have to give us some time to plan.
• 30:47
  We've never done this before. But basically what we could do in the end,
• 30:49
  we were able to have a team on site.
• 30:51
  He took his, you know, ~ end of life medications.
• 30:54
  And they wait there, and as soon as the doctor declares legal death,
• 30:57
  within seconds, literally within seconds,
• 30:58
  you can start restart the whole procedure.
• 31:01
  In fact, you have to give propofol as the first drug because there's
• 31:04
  at least a theoretical possibility someone could actually return some level
• 31:07
  of consciousness, even though they've been declared legally dead.
• 31:09
  So you give that first, then you have to give blood thinners antases,
• 31:12
  membrane stabilizers. It was a whole cocktail based on research
• 31:15
  to protect the cells. So yeah,
• 31:16
  doing that immediately is the best thing,
• 31:18
  but we do have evidence that even if it's several hours,
• 31:21
  Especially if someone's been cooled down,
• 31:23
  like in the in the morgue or something at four degrees C,
• 31:25
  that also extends the you know the good date if you like,
• 31:28
  the the go bad by date. So it's not hopeless if it takes several hours,
• 31:33
  but it's definitely best to do it instantly.
• 31:35
  Yeah. Well it's interesting in the hospital when I was doing cardiology work,
• 31:39
  you know, some people would come in and they would have sort
• 31:41
  of sudden cardiac death, right?
• 31:43
  Where their heart would stop. And one of the things that would be done would
• 31:47
  be to if they were in the ICU,
• 31:49
  would be to cool them down very quickly,
• 31:51
  not to forty degrees C, but into the into the eighties.
• 31:55
  And they showed that, you know,
• 31:57
  if they were able to fix the heart problem,
• 31:58
  whatever it was, ~ the aneurysm that ruptured,
• 32:01
  whatever, and then bring the people back.
• 32:03
  that they had a substantial improvement in their cognitive abilities were retained
• 32:08
  as opposed to, you know, suffering brain damage per se,
• 32:12
  right? So
• 32:13
  Cold
• 32:13
  cold medicine's become quite popular.
• 32:14
  Actually, we had a a visit to Alcohol by Dr.
• 32:16
  Peter Ree, who was I think Obama's personal physician,
• 32:19
  but he also did some very interesting surgery research where he actually
• 32:22
  was calling people quite a lot more than than you said,
• 32:24
  which is you know what you said is the standard.
• 32:26
  But he was taking ~ gunshot wound victims and dropping them down,
• 32:29
  I think what was he going at about twenty degrees C,
• 32:31
  I think. So quite a quite a large drop.
• 32:32
  And that basically gave you about ~ four or eight times as long
• 32:35
  to to operate because of the slow metabolism.
• 32:37
  Sure. So so yeah, the same principle basically.
• 32:40
  Yeah, remember the stories about children that would drop through the
• 32:42
  ice and drown in a frozen lake and be resuscitated,
• 32:45
  you know, an hour later, kind of thing,
• 32:47
  right? Same situation. Yeah.
• 32:49
  And our I R and a half or so there's the there's a classic case
• 32:51
  of Anna Baggenholm in Sweden who was skiing and fell into a icy lake
• 32:55
  and basically was not was legally dead for basically an hour and came back pretty
• 32:59
  much completely intact. It tends to be,
• 33:01
  as you said, children because they have a higher surface area to volume ratio,
• 33:04
  so they cool more rapidly. So it slows metabolism faster.
• 33:06
  So that's really the whole point is we want to slow metabolism
• 33:08
  as quickly as possible because the faster that's running
• 33:11
  The worst things are happening.
• 33:12
  So we ha we do we're doing research into ways of finding faster ways
• 33:15
  of cooling people. So it used to be people would just be put in an
• 33:18
  ice bath that wasn't very effective.
• 33:19
  Then we circ circulate the icy water around the patient.
• 33:22
  Now we're actually researching something called liquid ventilation,
• 33:24
  which involves pumping either a saline solution or a poly another sort
• 33:28
  of oxygen bearing medium through the body into into the lungs because
• 33:31
  it has a massive surface area and can cool a patient very rapidly.
• 33:34
  So that's something we're hoping to introduce to accelerate the cooling.
• 33:37
  Yeah, interesting. We were using something with floor I think it was fluorinated.
• 33:41
  Fluorocarb
• 33:42
  fluorocarbons, I think. Yeah, they actually J James Cameron made that popular
• 33:45
  in ~ the movie The Abyss where the the divers actually were not breathing
• 33:48
  air they were using this, which actually you can actually do that,
• 33:50
  yeah.
• 33:51
  Yeah, we actually tried it in interventional cardiology where we would this
• 33:54
  was back in the early nineties,
• 33:56
  we would infuse it down the coronary artery past where the balloon
• 34:00
  was occluded to protect the downstream heart muscle from ischemia,
• 34:04
  from lack of blood flow while we were in there working with a balloon.
• 34:07
  We didn't even have stents at that point in time to try to open an artery.
• 34:10
  It never really panned out to be all that useful because in the heart there's
• 34:14
  a lot of collateral circulation and other things going on that it just didn't make
• 34:18
  that big of a difference.
• 34:19
  With the
• 34:19
  lungs you can really you can really make a big difference.
• 34:22
  Well, Max, it's a very interesting field that you've been involved with.
• 34:25
  So ever onward, ever upward and ever colder,
• 34:28
  it sounds like. Yeah.
• 34:30
  Well, we do store people at minus three hundred and twenty Fahrenheit
• 34:32
  or minus one ninety six Celsius.
• 34:34
  So that temperature basically you could stay there for you know a thousand years
• 34:36
  and be perfectly fresh. Apart from the old cosmic ray knocking a molecule aside,
• 34:41
  you're not gonna see any change at all.
• 34:42
  So subjectively it'd be like no time has passed and hopefully you wake
• 34:46
  up one day and go, Wow, I made it.
• 34:47
  I'm still going.
• 34:48
  Uh-huh. I'm still here. All right.
• 34:50
  Well cool stuff. Well, thanks so much for taking time to chat with us today.
• 34:54
  You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.
• 34:55
  I think we're on the same side.
• 34:57
  Yeah.
• 34:58
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• 34:59
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• 35:02
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• 35:06
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• 35:10
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• 35:14
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