Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Simon Halstead on Programmatic Curation

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Simon Halstead on Programmatic Curation · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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[Music]
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one of the most interesting topics in
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digital media space right now is
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programmatic curation and today we're
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going to get into it with one of the
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real experts Simon hellstead Simon has
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worked in digital media for 25 years and
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has the distinction of having worked at
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all the original internet portals Yahoo
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AOL Microsoft including their various
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rebranded amalgamations which is where I
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met Simon he is currently the founder of
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holstead incubation Partners a strategic
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advisory business supporting companies
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in their goto Market strategy and their
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Market launches right now I'm in
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California and the Sun is streaming in
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he is in the UK where it is a little bit
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darker and later in the day Simon thank
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you for taking the time to talk to me
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today great to speak to you again James
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and I'm very jealous of that yellow orb
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in the sky that appears to be projecting
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stuff at you haven't seen it for a while
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in the UK at the moment excellent hey
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Simon before we get into the latest
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trends let's just talk about the current
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state of programmatic you and I have
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been in the space a really long time and
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at the beginning programmatic was a
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dirty word it was associated with
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Remnant inventory it might have been
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called class two many Publishers were
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very hesitant to use it now we're in a
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world where the vast majority of
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inventory is transacted programmatically
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is that a good thing or did we lose
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something along the
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way yeah look I'm one of the the
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original programmatic guys I was one of
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the early programmatic people in in
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Europe and I'm always going to say it's
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a good thing because because lots of
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it's been good but let's not let's not
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underestimate by some of the complexity
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it's actually added in it hasn't solved
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all of the problems I think it hoped to
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um and and I think we're all seeing a
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little bit of things maybe even come
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full circle so moving from that
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targeting one to one and targeting
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anyone wherever they were where you
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could find them back to much more
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constrained and structured deals and now
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we'll talk into some of the curation
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topics we we're going to touch on today
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um there's been a load of things that
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have disrupted the market so just from
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programmatic and and demand side
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platforms buying into exchanges
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initially through things like header
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bidding so where multiple ssps were
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servicing the same opportunity
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um with multiple paths to bid and
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expanding addressable Supply and
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competing in the ad server but also also
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increasing some duplication and
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complexity in the market things like
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that drove SPO so they've driven the
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need to to optimize how you buy your
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supply and to think about the
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sustainability of how you buy of which
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bids I listen to or how do I manage
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multiple Hops and that's before we get
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to Identity I live through gdpr rolling
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out I used to have hair before that I I
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mean I didn't but it would have had
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would have taken hair if I still had it
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uh and those things around
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addressability of added complexity so
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those are some of the challenges but but
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on the positive side we're seeing new
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mediums new markets come in maybe learn
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a little bit from that experience as
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well so ctvs come in much more on a
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private Marketplace lead approach than
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that full open auction opportunity
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digital out of homes taking a lot of
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learnings about how to get the benefits
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of scal demand
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but still maintain some of the control
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on a more limited private basis I think
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there's a couple of maxims that apply
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just because you can work with everyone
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doesn't mean you should should be really
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selective about who you partner with and
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how and why be that on the demand or on
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the the publisher side and most
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importantly it's still a people first
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business uh the experience of being a
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consultant of the last 18 months is
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about relationships it's about being
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able to drive and have those
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conversations really understand what
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people's needs so technology helps us
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programmatic helps us but adds confusion
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and I think for Publishers it's added
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some complexity as well uh can we come
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back to a second for SPO the term you
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use for Supply path optimization a lot
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of people are saying that's still one of
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the biggest challenges that needs to be
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solved in our space and I think you
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touched on it but the idea is simply
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that there are too many intermediat
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trees and there is too much waste so
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that of the dollar that uh Advertiser is
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trying to spend only a fraction makes
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its way to the publisher um I have taken
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the other side of that argument and said
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you know we were at a digital media
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drinks a couple of weeks ago and we were
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saying if we were sitting in that Pub
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and wanted a pizza we could call up door
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Dash and get a pizza delivered to us and
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a lot of the fees are going to go to the
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driver to all of the associated cost of
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getting the pizza but in doing that
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we're clear that we're getting some
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clear value and to me door Dash and
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other things are a real world example of
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the value added Services the
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intermediates along the value chain
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whether they're verification dsps ssps
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all of the
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ecosystem and you know so clearly inter
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what we might call intermediaries have a
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role but as you think about it is the
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goal just to be a little bit more
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efficient or how do we how should we
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think about Supply path optimization so
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so
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again I think there are a couple of
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things in there one of the things I
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think programmatic did is a lot of those
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costs existed before they were just
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hidden right so you paid the ticket
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price and the cost of optimizing was
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done by a client service team in house
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right that account management team
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existed on the publisher side now
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Publishers don't have the same scale of
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Team they've moved to a different
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intermediary in this intermediary in the
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space so there's a little bit of almost
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exposure of some of the costs that
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existed the cost of data is another
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great example where data's been l on at
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a different point now with a slightly
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different goal but the cost of creating
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that data was already in the previous
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price structure that said I think there
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are some challenges where lots of people
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are trying to take quite sizable
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percentages through the pipe so I think
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Supply path optimization is is really
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about an it has a couple of variants but
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it's about a couple of things one is
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about if I have the options for buying
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this
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inventory from four the same impression
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and it's been surfaced to me four ways
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why which path do I choose and do I
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choose it because of the relationship
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the publisher has with that SSP and DSP
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do I POS it because it had more data on
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on one opportunity or not is it enhanced
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in some way so it's understanding how
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you want your supply paths to look if
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you're concerned about sustainability
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you may want the most direct path you
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may not want those bids to be duplicated
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if you just want to get the cheapest
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price you may want to bid wherever you
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can and try and drive price down with
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within an auction using that that
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multiple opportunity but for most people
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I think it is about understanding where
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they buy being clear about the past they
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buy from and had a bidding to a degree
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proliferated many many exchanges so a
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little bit back to my first point is you
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can still work with 10 15 exchanges on a
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on a campaign you probably don't need
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work you probably don't need to work
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with 30 are they really being additive
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at that point to go from a pub yield
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side is adding another exchange actually
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genuinely re Revenue additive and and
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particularly something that loses sight
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a little bit is if it adds latency or
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even adds vendors into a uh a TCF
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file is it additive enough for the ux
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and and consumer damage because we
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sometimes lose sight of the consumer as
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well so Supply path optimization is
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really
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about what's the most efficient way to
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find the supply you need with the CR
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material you need and that can be price
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driven it can be quality driven um but I
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think from a publisher perspective
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publish is always want to drive yield
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it's a tough business being a publisher
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and so they are always managing the
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incrementality in that space as well you
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I want to come up on something you just
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said about it's okay to work with 15
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different exchanges because I think I
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would argue you don't need 15 then you
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get the vast majority of the value from
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the first three or four and it might be
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easy to sort of add another exchange but
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then that's another relationship that
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you need to monitor or manage um how
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much value do you think you get from
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going from let's say the first three or
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four exchanges to 15 and then you for
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you the cut off seems to be 30s too many
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no I mean I so first of all I think it's
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really spec it's specific for different
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Publishers and it's very specific for
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different buyers so it is a that's why
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Supply p optimization is an individual
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brand or publisher Choice how many
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partners do I want to list for you know
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if you're a premium publisher that is in
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everyone's allow list that everyone
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wants to buy from yeah two to three is
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almost certainly sufficient right if
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you're a less well-known publisher and
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just want to attract demand from
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multiple sources that that pool is
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bigger
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um it's funny your first question was
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have we lost anything sometimes I think
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we've lost a little bit of of planning
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and we're relying too much on machines
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to do the work I was a terrible terrible
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digital buyer many many many years ago
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last century actually um but you know
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you would plan where you wanted to buy
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you wouldn't literally put in a system
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an algorithm make every decision because
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you couldn't but but even then there's a
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basis of what is my allow list what is
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that group of Publishers I want to work
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with and that's almost coming back to
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Creation like where is the where is the
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pool I really want to focus and play and
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extract value from yeah yeah and and I
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realize it sounds like I'm coming out on
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the side of saying Supply path
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optimization is not that big a deal and
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that's actually not what I'm saying I
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think it is a huge issue and I think
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part of it is on both sides the
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publisher side and the demand side
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putting more visibility into these
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transactions to actually understand and
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you and I have seen examples where
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advertisers or agencies could be
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actually bidding against themselves
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providing price support and this is
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perhaps less of an issue now that most
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have moved to First price auctions but
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certainly when we're still in second
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price auctions you know advertisers were
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providing their own price support
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because they weren't aware that they
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were the only buyer on some impression
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so yeah clearly it's an issue and I
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think a lot of it can be solved through
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better visibility uh I promised we' we'd
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get to to creation and so let's get
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there now how do you define curation why
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are people so excited about it and uh
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what reasons are there that people might
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be skeptical or
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concerned so it's a difficult one
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because there isn't a standard
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definition of curation and in fact in
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the last week I've seen it used in two
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three different cases it's a it's a
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little bit of a classic industry we love
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a Hot Topic and a hot take and a an
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active discussion about the value um and
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so I often think about curation as it's
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been called curation in the the S that's
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being talked about right now it's almost
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a a topic header which actually has lots
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of smaller elements in it um some of it
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is a response to signal loss right with
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cookie deprecation with the with the
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decreased amount of addressable cookies
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that are out there um with concerns
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about what data passed with
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gdpr the information that supports each
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impress is less valuable it's harder to
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decision against um so curation really
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falls into a couple of brackets for me
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one is where Publishers are able to
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enrich Supply with data they know that
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they may not want to pass in a bidst
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stream okay they may want to add some of
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their first party data or even just
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their own insight and value in Cross
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cross-site travels to help identify an
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audience for a buyer um but they don't
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want to sit put that in the bid scream
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they want to keep that that value
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themselves the the other is um just
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creation of Po of Supply almost to that
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allow lless point is finding the groups
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of Supply that you know perform well for
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your campaign and brand type and really
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indexing into those and potentially even
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being prepared to to pay more or take
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opportunities outside out of the auction
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or higher up the auction pay a greater
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price for a better point of access there
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then is just curation done at the sort
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of systemwide level on some some fairly
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standard signals um I think that bit's a
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little bit less interesting I think
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that's a little bit the more the muck
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side of it um and then you can also
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Focus your curation really with that
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that Supply puff optimization and
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sustainability folks about efficient
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path to Market what do I want to buy
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what's the most efficient way so
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curation can then be seen this is a
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really long answer I'm sorry James um
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cation can also then be seen as a
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service it's a service that's enhancing
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value and delivered via pmps we've seen
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Xander index uh launch um and to a
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degree uh magnite and uh ptic all
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launched versions of their own curation
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tools there are other ssps with curation
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tools I should add um which allow buyers
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to create some of that Insight that's
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not available in the bidst Stream and
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run across the platform we've also seen
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Standalone companies in this space do
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well big news obviously in the last week
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with' Experian leveraging curation by
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buying orig and and other aspects to
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that deal as well so it could be
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something that's delivered via pmps by
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existing D dsps and pip workk can also
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be something that's delivered by service
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it's something where someone is able to
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create that value from signals that are
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out there um and again all the way back
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to the start of our conversation
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programmatic was going to get rid of
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every ad Network out there in all
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managed service well that has not
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happened right managed service still a
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really valuable route where people
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either have greater Insight or
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operational knowledge than you and can
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deliver real value so it's a really
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interesting space because it's all of
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those things I don't think it needs to
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be overdefined but I do think the
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principle behind it is good is the
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underlying principles are strong
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identification of what you want to need
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and then making those things work well
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for you con having a more direct
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relationship with Publishers having more
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insight and information being passed and
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actually creating a better value
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exchange than just relying on just a buy
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side algorithm often which historically
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either index it to some price elements
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as their driver or index it to some very
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specific data points and now you're
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enriching with with other additional
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data points so I have one really strong
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view in this area um curation should be
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something done in partnership with a
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publisher it should be about either
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unlocking publisher value that isn't
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available in the bidst Stream or it's
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something where you're getting access to
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more premium Supply it shouldn't be just
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rebadging of open auction inventory with
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one simple signal it's really much more
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involved conversation I think that's
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where the opportunity will come so so
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given what you just said and the fact
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that there's activity around this
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there's announce ments there's merges
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and Acquisitions clearly it's a Hot
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Topic and as you said I think it's in
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response to some of the Privacy
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challenges and signal loss are you
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optimistic that it's going to become
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both more standard and be effective in
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dealing with that standard loss do you
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see this as something that we're going
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to be talking about in a couple of years
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of okay glad that happened the industry
15:54
is in a better place or is this going to
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be in the category of some of the things
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that we' talked about that sort of come
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and go and never really become a
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long-term part of the
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ecosystem so uh I'm I I think it's
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important and I think it will be part of
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the
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conversation that said I think it's a
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really hot topic right now maybe not
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even for the right reasons I think it's
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just we love a hot take and we love a
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Hot Topic and we love to rip some things
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apart if we really strip it
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back it's a it's a really simple
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activity right it's making certain that
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you're buying into the right areas and
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as a seller you're selling the right
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audiences the right way to the right
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people it's really 101 stuff to a degree
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but it's making it work and it's dealing
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with some of the inefficiencies that
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actually do exist in programmatic
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ecosystems um so I think it will be a
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big thing I actually hope it will be a
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big thing that's talked about less um
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and that would be real success like the
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the benefits of curation being done more
16:56
widely um with some standardization no
16:59
school that um I just saw today or
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yesterday that I think Tech Lab are
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talking about redefining seller defined
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audiences to be curated audiences I
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think that's useful Anthony kater put up
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a great piece a couple of weeks ago
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about a lot of the stuff that does exist
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to help people curate inventory well or
17:17
buy better is already there so I so I
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think it's going to evolve and sise but
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I actually at the same time almost hope
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the conversation quietens down a little
17:27
people just get on with the actual work
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of doing it because there's real value
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there talking I was talking to a couple
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of curators recently multilocal um a
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local UK original company um and they've
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had real success right they deliver real
17:41
value for their clients their clients
17:42
are really happy their clients on the
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publisher side and the demand side are
17:47
happy so that feels like something
17:48
that's working and got legs um and
17:51
there's real opportunities to go on and
17:53
obviously I think it's a real vote of
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confidence when someone like Experian
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make a big buy like order right that's
17:59
commitment there is value to be found in
18:01
this space so this definitely a thing
18:04
it's definitely not just a buzzword
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bingo there's a little bit of buzzword
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bingo right now
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though um I guess I'd be rent to walk
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away from this conversation without
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pushing you a bit on what type of
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curation is going to be most effective
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because one way of viewing this is it's
18:21
just another version of sort of audience
18:24
targeting from the publisher side using
18:26
a different methodology if you think
18:29
about the types of audiences that could
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be curated there's sort of I'd call
18:34
traditional almost behavioral targeting
18:36
type audiences there's demographic
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audiences you could create audiences
18:42
around propensity to be a likely clicker
18:45
as you think about the signals that the
18:47
Publishers have at their at their
18:49
disposal and you say you know this
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should be absolutely done with the
18:52
Publishers input what are the types of
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signals that you think are going to lead
18:57
to the most effective pated
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audiences so I
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think you actually highlighted I think
19:06
both I think you use two there's two
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example of high propensity clickers
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versus a behavioral audience I think
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they're distinct values and also there's
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a there there's third category of them
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combined I think all of them have legs
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and value for for me uh I do think it's
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going to come about where the real value
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of curation is where you can across
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multi- Publishers tie additional data
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point so you're able to take really
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deeper understood behavioral audiences
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than people want to share in a bid
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stream on each individual publisher and
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then curate those across Publishers to
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give you a decent targetable poll that's
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where I think you start to really get to
19:45
the value where you know targeting if
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you apply that targeting just on the buy
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side it's often quite self- selective
19:52
just because of addressability issues
19:54
and where it can find those impression
19:55
if you allow every impression that could
19:57
fit those criteria to surfaced and
19:59
remove some of that Target on the demand
20:01
side then I think you'll see real
20:03
success there the one I also think we'll
20:06
have real legs is people looking for to
20:08
a degree margin efficiency right where
20:10
people want to really drive through
20:14
prices of effective working
20:16
media um and maybe you know move past
20:19
some of the take rates that exist in the
20:21
market as well I think trying to make
20:24
certain that the Publishers understand
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where money is being taken is important
20:28
um and trying to make certain the the
20:30
fees on it are efficient for everybody
20:32
um is a is an area of development for
20:35
for the next couple of years as well I
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think I think it's an area that could
20:38
get quite aggressive and competitive and
20:39
I think that's good for
20:41
Publishers one thing uh I was just
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thinking about as you were talking is
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Publishers have signals that they
20:48
haven't really used a lot recently
20:51
because it is mov to the demand side I'm
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wondering if some of them will move back
20:55
and I'll give you an example I don't
20:57
know if you were at AOL the time but
20:59
ad.com had a lot of information around
21:03
is this person early in a session
21:06
essentially is it like the first
21:07
impression they see or the second
21:09
impression that they see right now most
21:13
mansai can see those kinds of signals
21:16
and they use them in their buying
21:17
algorithms if the premises curation is a
21:20
response to some of those signals going
21:22
away do you see more of that
21:24
intelligence moving back to the
21:26
publisher side to get sophisticated in
21:29
how they think about things like as as a
21:32
user early
21:33
ination yeah and actually I think
21:36
um uh Publishers often also choose not
21:39
to pass that information broadly into
21:40
the bid stream right so with good reason
21:43
and I think it's an opportunity for them
21:44
to extract some of the value from
21:46
understanding that that's why it's not
21:48
just contextual or behavioral right it's
21:50
or it's it's other behavioral elements
21:53
it's time of day it's you know a really
21:56
good example someone said to me is
21:59
what's the difference in someone who
22:00
comes in and looks at news then sport
22:02
then travel versus someone who comes in
22:03
and looks at Travel news and goes back
22:05
to travel th those are two different
22:08
consumers with two very different modes
22:10
of behavior but if you just targeted
22:13
contextually you might not get them in
22:15
the right mode in the right frame so
22:16
that's where Publishers are able to lay
22:19
more value into it and particularly
22:21
where Publishers don't necessarily have
22:22
their own direct sales effort or scale
22:25
they can then work with partner curation
22:26
Partners be that either at the SSP or
22:29
even their agency partners to create
22:30
these audiences at enough scale that
22:32
they have real value so I I think it
22:34
should help address that I'm
22:36
occasionally too optimistic and algori
22:38
you know I genuinely believe that um rtb
22:40
was going to lead to some good
22:41
democratization as well sometimes human
22:44
behavior gets a little bit in the way
22:45
and we all try and find it a cheat
22:47
around the a cheat around the corner but
22:49
um but those are good cases where I
22:51
think it will will come to the full but
22:53
look the other thing is this is just a
22:55
This Is Why We Shouldn't build it up to
22:56
be this massive thing this is just part
22:59
of a campaign tactic this is just part
23:02
of our audience identification right
23:04
it's um it applies equally as it to CTV
23:08
as it does to um online to to display
23:12
and video it's it's how do you find
23:15
those audiences in the way that once and
23:17
it creation might just be about outcomes
23:19
right it might be not necessar getting
23:20
to a CPA but it might be it might be
23:22
getting to C A completed view it might
23:24
be knowing that the metric that matters
23:27
there's a different debate there about
23:28
when we get driven by metrics versus
23:30
actual value for The Advertiser but um
23:33
there are lots of different points of
23:35
creation it what won't work is if it
23:38
becomes ubiquitous and it just becomes
23:40
literally just another deal ID that is
23:42
curated because that's not really doing
23:45
they'll become you
23:47
know they'll just become pumped out and
23:49
it will just lead to confusion so I
23:51
think it's some more Nuance conversation
23:53
I think that's where real value can be
23:54
had okay thank you other than curation
23:59
what are you most excited about in the
24:01
programmatic world right now so I'm
24:04
going to I'm going to start uh with I'm
24:06
excited about lots of things we were
24:08
saying just before we started um I'm
24:11
actually the last few years have been
24:12
pretty tough with covid with the
24:14
economic circumstance with the even the
24:16
m&a market has been pretty tough right
24:18
and feels to me like there's a new burst
24:21
of excitement coming towards
24:22
programmatic there's lots of other new
24:23
exciting areas like AI we're not going
24:25
to say II AI right now but I think
24:28
there's going to be a lot of reinvention
24:29
in the programmatic space there's
24:31
potentially things with the doj trials
24:34
and some of the the competition
24:35
authorities looking at some of the large
24:37
players I think there's going to be some
24:39
big disruption over the next two three
24:40
years none bigger than the demise of of
24:44
cookies as they have been even though
24:45
they're already in very sharp decline I
24:48
think that's going to create
24:48
opportunities for Innovation that's
24:51
great I think it also may make may get
24:55
us away from the concept and focus on
24:58
real onetoone targeting and back to
25:01
better measurement of success and better
25:03
focus on cohorts and audiences and
25:06
delivering versus literally being able
25:07
to retarget someone based on an action
25:10
so those things all come together to
25:11
drive there is huge amounts of work to
25:14
be done on measurement it's the biggest
25:16
thing that everyone I think needs to
25:17
lean into and also for the open web some
25:20
standardization to allow us to compete
25:23
better more evenly with the large
25:25
players that will help in the CTV space
25:27
as well
25:29
but um I think it's just an exciting
25:30
time James I really do I think um lots
25:33
of interesting companies out there lots
25:34
of bright ideas lots of emergence things
25:37
like CTV that have been through Rapid
25:39
explanation probably hitting a little
25:40
bit of maturity where they're now going
25:42
to go through a clean up and reinvention
25:45
phase and that's a good thing too
25:46
because that kicks you on to the next
25:47
stage of growth but as I
25:51
say if the last from Co onwards I think
25:54
it's been a really tough time this last
25:57
six months has felt more more
25:58
interesting and I think the next 18
26:00
months is going to be really exciting
26:01
for the whole
26:03
industry 100% agree with you it's it's
26:05
been some dark days in sort of digital
26:08
media and digital advertising and as you
26:09
and I discussed before we started I
26:11
think that the last few months have had
26:12
a different feel more optimistic feel
26:15
about them and and so I think we're in
26:17
agreement there yeah Simon thank you so
26:20
much for taking the time what's the best
26:22
way for people to find you or get hold
26:24
of you online or social what do you
26:26
prefer so you can find me on LinkedIn um
26:29
Simon Hol I think it's literally
26:31
linkedin.com Simon holed uh you can find
26:35
me on I am on X as Simon Fester I'm also
26:39
on Blue Sky simon. housed Blue Sky um
26:44
and there is a website with housed
26:46
incubation Partners so you can always
26:47
reach me via that but um or just Simon H
26:50
Simon hits.
26:53
co.uk you'll know someone who knows me
26:55
as the answer you'll find a way to get a
26:57
hold of me we all will hey thank you
27:00
again and have a good rest of your day
27:01
Simon see you later James have a good
27:03
day we do