Latest / The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education / Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill - May Update

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Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill - May Update · The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education

0:17
Hello everybody, welcome to a special episode of the Big Home
0:20
Ed conversations. We are back with one of our
0:22
favorite guests, Wendy Charles Warner from Education.
0:24
Otherwise we love having her on at the moment, especially
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because of obviously their children's well-being in schools
0:29
bill that's going through Parliament And we are very keen
0:32
to make sure that from time to time at least we're checking in
0:34
with what's happening as it's so important to all of us to
0:37
understand what's going on. And I think the truth is that
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whilst a lot of information is put out there on the various
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sort of Facebook groups and other areas, we do actually find
0:46
it quite hard sometimes when we're busy.
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And we're trying to just educate our kids and keep on top of life
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and actually live our lives and work and all things.
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To actually still keep this in the forefront of our minds and
0:56
do the fighting that's necessary.
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Support those who are obviously putting the work in behind the
1:01
scenes to really try and fight this.
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So obviously, without further ado, I will obviously let Wendy
1:06
chat to us about it for a little bit.
1:08
But we kind of wanted to touch specifically today on really
1:11
kind of it's gotten quite far through the process.
1:15
There are definite fears that this will now come to pass, that
1:17
we may not be able to fight all of it anymore, which is a shame.
1:20
But ultimately, I think it's understanding if it does come to
1:24
pass, if these things do start to come into action, what do we
1:27
think the reality might actually look like?
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And I guess, yeah, just trying to give people a picture to kind
1:32
of just maybe put some fears to bed or to make people aware of
1:35
kind of their rights still and any kind of things which we
1:37
might need to still be pushing back on our local MPs and stuff
1:40
about to really try and push for better rights as things maybe do
1:44
start to come into play. So, yeah, so that's what we want
1:46
to try and chat about today. So hopefully that's going to be
1:49
really helpful to all of you. But how are you today, Wendy?
1:52
How are you getting on? I know you're you're suffering a
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little bit with your shoulder. Bless you.
1:55
But apart from that. Yes, but I'm here, so that's a
1:57
good thing. Hopefully.
1:59
Hopefully we can help people to catch up.
2:02
Yeah, I think that the worries are raising and people are
2:07
becoming fearful and some of those fears are, are are are
2:11
perhaps have some justification and others less so.
2:14
But if I tell you where we are in the process that that might
2:17
give us a good start, people will probably know that the bill
2:20
has been through the House of Commons.
2:22
Now in the Lords, during debate, there have been comments about
2:27
how it was bulldozed through, how it was railroaded through,
2:31
and there was a definite impression that the Labour
2:34
government was controlling the passage of the bill.
2:37
There were no amendments made that were suggested other than
2:41
by the government, the Welsh Government and the Department
2:44
for Education. And that's really unusual on a
2:48
bill. Bills normally get some
2:50
amendments before they come into force.
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It's a rather arrived at the Lords and the the process is
2:56
very similar in the Lords, it first of all gets read.
2:59
That's just a formality. You then have the second reading
3:03
where there is a debate and you then go to what's called
3:05
committee stage. At the moment we're in committee
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stage and what I'm seeing, what I saw in debate and what I'm
3:14
seeing reading the transcripts for the the committee stage is a
3:19
great many peers are actually very worried about this bill and
3:25
are expressing their concerns. There are huge numbers of
3:29
amendments. I've been working with some of
3:32
the peers on amendments and various aspects of this and I'm
3:38
seeing really sensible amendments being put forward and
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the tone of argument is quite unusual for the House of Lords.
3:47
Normally it's very, very respectful, but the feelings are
3:50
so high that I'm seeing people making asides against other
3:56
peers, which you don't see as often as you see in the Commons.
4:00
So clearly this bill has raised people's emotions, but there is
4:05
a lot of, shall we say, negative feedback about the bill.
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There are a lot of amendments being proposed.
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There are a lot of peers who do not think that this bill should
4:17
go through as it is. So that's actually helpful to
4:20
us. We haven't yet reached the
4:22
committee stage on the main sections of the bill which
4:26
relate to home education. What we have seen is the initial
4:31
discussions about the register per SE.
4:34
Now, as I said, I'm in touch with quite a few peers and my
4:37
feedback is that the register itself will go ahead.
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They are all saying exactly the same thing.
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They believe that the register will go ahead, but to be quite
4:48
frank, the majority of parents in this country who home educate
4:53
their children are already on informal registers.
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So a simple register would not make a great deal of difference
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in practice, emotionally and feeling about feeling that it's
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not fair, of course it makes a difference to all of us, but in
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practice a basic register would not make a difference.
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Now it's the other aspects of the bill that would make the
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difference and I'm being told that that peers believe that
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there is a good chance of them amending, certainly lightening
5:28
the amount of data that has to be provided.
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That's one thing that a lot of peers are not in agreement with.
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Even some peers who were very much in favour of the school's
5:39
bill, which was the previous iteration, are asking for
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amendments. For example, Lord Story, Mike's
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Story has filed amendments to this bill, particularly asking
5:50
for access to examinations for parents, which wasn't included.
5:54
The support in the bill was negligible.
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So when you've got peers from all sides asking for amendments,
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I think that there is a good chance that some amendments will
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be made. And I'm hoping that when we get
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to the end of the process in the Lords, which we're we're we're
6:15
looking at, the committee stage will probably continue.
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It could be in into early July. It then goes to third reading
6:23
for amendments to be made and it then from that stage is sent
6:28
back to the House of Commons. Now, I'm not a constitutional
6:32
lawyer, but having researched this, my understanding is that
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if the bill goes to the Commons with amendments and the Commons
6:41
accept those amendments, then the bill will become a piece of
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legislation. It will become law.
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If the Commons do not accept the amendments, then it doesn't
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become law. They have to go back and ask the
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House of Lords to reconsider. But according to my basic
7:01
research on this, they can't. Can't do that for 13 months.
7:06
So if the Commons doesn't accept amendments from the Lords, there
7:11
will be a delay with the bill. Now we know that the Commons,
7:14
the particular, this particular government does not want to
7:17
delay. This is one of their flagship
7:20
bills. They want to delay it.
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And so it's a possibility that they will, shall we say, back
7:27
down somewhat and accept amendments in order to get it
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through. But time will tell and we will
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see. But we we are expecting some
7:39
time in the next week. We should get it should come to
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the stage where there's discussion of home education.
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I'm keeping track of it. The other thing you were saying,
7:48
Kelly, is in practice, how is this going to affect people?
7:53
So if we look at the worst case scenario, that's the bill goes
7:58
through exactly as it is, every parent will be required to
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provide their local authority, first of all to register under
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threat of of quite serious punishment and secondly to
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provide their local authority with an awful lot of
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information. Now let's look at the
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practicalities of that. Most of all, the local
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authorities don't have the funds to process that amount of
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information. Even if they do manage to
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process that information, they don't have storage facilities.
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So parents are sending things in on paper rather than e-mail that
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they just don't have the facilities to see thousands of
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tons of paperwork, you know, And if they are processing that
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information and they decide that it's not good enough and
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somewhere down the down the road, the parent ends up in a
8:47
courtroom solely because they haven't provided this
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information. I cannot imagine a court finding
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a parent guilty of failure to provide a suitable education on
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the basis that they didn't give Mr. Jones's details in full, who
9:04
happens to be one of the children's tutors.
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I simply cannot imagine the judiciary doing that.
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So I, I think they're probably buying themselves a, a, rather,
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a rather large problem that they haven't thought about how
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they're going to address. And that's, that's one aspect.
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So I think in practice a lot of local authorities won't be quite
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as efficient as people are scared that they will be about.
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No, I suppose the risk with this I think comes from the people
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who maybe the local authority are concerned about for some
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other reason that the amount of pressure put on those parents to
9:44
provide this information. I guess yes, OK, for some of us
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it might just simply be a not great good carry on like we
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don't want 20,000 tons of paperwork.
9:52
Thank you. Please, please don't submit
9:53
loads of stuff to us. We'll review it again in a
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couple of years. But ultimately for those of us
9:57
who in the community maybe who have been through obviously
10:01
social services investigations in the past, as we've discussed
10:04
before, won't necessarily touch on that too much.
10:05
But the concept of families who maybe have had some issues in
10:08
the past, they may come under such serious scrutiny with this
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like local authorities having the permission to ask for this
10:14
information, that actually it becomes very difficult for a
10:17
family to prove to a local authority that everything's
10:21
great and everything's fine at home.
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And it obviously when a child is in a situation that has maybe
10:25
been vulnerable and the parents have been working very hard to
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try and like put really amazing safeguarding things into place.
10:32
They may be getting people out of their lives.
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They're trying to ensure they've got access to all these amazing
10:36
clubs and groups and things. They're trying to do whatever
10:39
they can to support that child and to get their confidence up
10:42
their whatever rate, whatever situation they might be in, send
10:45
child who's had trauma at school, whatever has been going
10:47
on that potentially opens them up to such a lot more kind of, I
10:52
don't know, just that microscopic looking at their
10:54
life, which I think it's just such a shame that we are still
10:59
in a situation in this country where the government basically
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wants to have this oversight and but there's just no trust that
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families are trying to do the best by their families.
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And I think ultimately it's a shame, isn't it, that they're
11:11
even asking for this much information from anyone, but
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it's, it's actually completely unnecessary.
11:16
But yeah, carry on. It's just such a shame, I think.
11:19
Yes, I think the people who are going to find themselves this
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bill affecting them are those parents who sometimes through no
11:28
fault of their own, who have ended up with scrutiny by
11:31
children's social services. And I think the aspect of the
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bill that to me is most severely inappropriate is the best
11:39
interest, the best interest clauses.
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So your education could be absolutely perfect, but if the
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children social services are investigating you, not even,
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you're not even on the child protection plan, they're
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investigating you. They can decide whether or not
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home education is in your best interests.
11:59
Now there are an awful lot of local authorities where they
12:02
have a block standing order in effect that any child who is on
12:07
has children services involved. It's not in their interest to be
12:12
home educated. They simply do not understand
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that home education is of equal status to school, and there is
12:20
this notion that school protects children.
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It simply doesn't, and it's not. It's not well known that I was a
12:27
victim of abuse when I was a child in a school, and school
12:31
certainly did nothing to protect me.
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I have members of my family who were very severely abused in
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school and no, nobody in school protected them.
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And I know thousands of parents who can say exactly the same
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thing. You've got this, this difficulty
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that there's this notion, hairy fairy notion that school is
12:51
protective and that children are safer in school.
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What the best interest clauses do, by giving the the social
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services that right is, they take away the idea that if the
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education is is good, then the education should stand because
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the consistency is the most important for the child, because
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a child under assessment needs the security of familiarity to
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be able to cope. I see lots of families who have
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been through the court system who are very badly damaged by
13:25
the number of professional assessments that they have been
13:28
forced to go through, children who are actually doing less well
13:33
at the end of the process than they were at the beginning.
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And it's, it's known there is good quality research that
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confirms that children's social services involvement can be
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iatrogenic. It can do more harm than it's
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designed to do good. And we, we should be aware of
13:50
that. Now, what I'm seeing within the
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House of Lords, where the bill currently is, is that peers are
13:56
aware of that, they do understand that, and there are
14:00
several amendments that have been put forward to try to
14:03
address that. And to be fair, if this Bill
14:07
were reduced to that best interest clause clicks in when a
14:11
child is actually on a child protection plan, it would be
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very hard to argue against that. Yeah, I agree.
14:18
But the fact that it's kicking in at the point of investigation
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I think goes too far. And that is exactly what I'm
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hearing from a lot of peers. People who've been following
14:31
things that are happening online or in your podcasts and things
14:34
like that will find that they they're spotting things about
14:38
expert opinions. Now the British Rabbinical Union
14:42
has taken an advice about the Bill and their advice is that
14:46
there are aspects of it which can be so successfully
14:49
challenged in judicial review. The first advice obtained was by
14:53
education. Otherwise we obtained an advice
14:56
from David Wolfe. Casey, Now David Wolfe is in the
15:00
field, is rated the second highest in the country.
15:03
This is not a man who does not know what he's talking about.
15:07
And David's advice is that those best interest clauses in the
15:11
Bill would be challengeable in judicial review.
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And we were a lone voice saying that initially.
15:20
But now, as they say, the British Rabbinical Union has
15:22
picked that up. And the Christian Institute, the
15:25
Christian Institute instructed senior counsel to do a similar
15:31
advice and they have come back with very similar advice, that
15:35
is that those clauses simply are not able to stand if you
15:40
challenge them. So we have, we have, there are
15:44
other advices out there as well. So we have a range of very
15:48
senior lawyers whose field this is telling the government and
15:52
these things that these documents have been sent to the
15:55
government that if you go ahead with those clauses, you will
15:59
face challenges from all of these sides in court.
16:03
Now most usually a government faced with that sort of
16:07
information, would think about it and make some adjustment.
16:11
They wouldn't give the those objecting what they want, but
16:15
most usually they would adjust just enough to not be liable for
16:21
for a loss in court because that would be a real loss of face to
16:25
them. But here we have a government
16:27
that appears to be dismissive. We had, there was a March in
16:32
London a few days ago, something like, I think it was well over
16:37
1000 people attended the March and it was dismissed by by the
16:42
minister as as a few scant attendees.
16:45
We're not going to change. We are determined to put this
16:48
through as it stands, and we're not going to change our minds
16:51
because of some scanty attended March.
16:54
I don't think that over 1000 people marching to object is a
16:59
scanty attended March when you look at how tiny our community
17:04
is. Yeah, it's actually quite a a
17:06
highly attended. Yeah, now that's something
17:10
families can do. We are being dismissed as just
17:14
flies in the ointment. We're there.
17:17
We're we're nuts to be swatted. So if you can, if you can sort
17:22
of tell people, talk to people, take part in the sorts of things
17:27
that are going on locally to you just to make sure that we are
17:31
not a scant audience. It's it's understood that that
17:36
might just get a bit more attention.
17:37
It's certainly beginning to get the attention of the media.
17:40
And the most influential people on government tend to be media,
17:45
because media can affect their. It can, I think they don't, they
17:49
don't want the media suddenly cracking down on them because
17:53
then they're going to suddenly be like, oh, hang on, like this,
17:55
This changes everyone's opinion, doesn't it?
17:57
At the end of the day, not all of us, hopefully those of us
17:59
with some critical thinking are always asking our own questions.
18:01
But for the masses, the media backup is super important.
18:05
And I think quite often, I know that in home education
18:07
communities, we can be a little fearful of talking to the media
18:10
because obviously they do tend to spin things their own way.
18:12
So obviously, definitely like put caution to the wind when
18:15
you're talking to the, well, no, sorry, opposite, but be cautious
18:18
when you're talking to them if you do decide to talk to them.
18:20
But ultimately, it is obviously important for us to be all
18:24
shouting from the rooftops about how much home education matters
18:27
as it stands and how important it is to us as a community.
18:30
And I think what's really interesting is that all of this
18:33
is coming off the back of several years of distinct growth
18:36
in the home education community that the government is
18:39
recognizing that there are a lot of parents who are with access
18:43
to more information, making better choices for their
18:45
families that suit them and also obviously respond to the needs
18:49
of their children. Whereas I think a lot of people
18:51
would have felt at 1 stage that they didn't really have a choice
18:53
that they they were just going to have to keep forcing their
18:55
kid into school and just trying to do their best with it.
18:58
But I think a lot of families are recognising maybe because
19:00
they're able to work more flexibly from home, maybe
19:02
because of whatever reason that actually they're able to provide
19:05
this opportunity. And I think what's frustrating
19:07
when we when we kind of look at again, this kind of idea of
19:11
swatting us away that we're just a few people, a few voices, 1000
19:14
people turning up for a March saying please stop trying to
19:17
control what we're trying to do. That we are genuinely really
19:20
working hard for our families and we care an awful lot about
19:22
our kids. And we want you to see us as
19:25
good people, that we're genuinely just good people who
19:28
want to raise our children really well and to give them
19:30
great opportunities. And this kind of dismissive, oh,
19:33
there's just a few people who are trying to push back against
19:35
us. And it's like, well, yes, but we
19:37
are the people that you are there to serve at the end of the
19:40
day. Like we are part of the fabric
19:43
of the culture in this country that we still exist.
19:49
We're still a part of it and actually a relatively powerful
19:52
part of it when we put our heads together because we're all so
19:54
strong minded and do a lot of critical thinking and do an
19:58
awful lot of investigating. And we don't just lie down and
20:00
take whatever gets thrown at us. And I honestly.
20:04
If they want to underestimate us, then they can do that at
20:07
their peril, I think, frankly. But yeah.
20:11
I think that's the case. But one thing I've been seeing
20:15
within the community that's worrying me is that quite often
20:19
when people are fearful, they, they become quiet and back off,
20:24
don't get involved. And people refer to it as
20:28
putting people putting their heads in the sand, but I think
20:31
that's not really what it is. It's fear.
20:34
It's not, I'm going to just ignore this and it will go away.
20:38
It's fear. And if you don't speak up in
20:42
your own way, then that's fewer voices being heard.
20:46
For example, every single petition we've ever put out is
20:50
very carefully worded. We actually get MPs and peers to
20:53
work on them with us. And usually we put out a
20:56
petition and it's got 10s of thousands of signatures within a
21:00
matter of a few days. We put out a petition on this
21:03
bill, which was actually designed to trigger a, a
21:06
particular response from the government being, well, we don't
21:09
want to pay for all of this extra support you're going to
21:12
demand for us. We've got to give this a
21:14
thought. And it took, it's still only on
21:18
20 something 1000 signatories now at 100,000 signatures.
21:24
There has to be a debate about it in the in the House of
21:27
Commons. So trigger a debate now we have
21:32
got we've got about 120,000 home educated children, that's about
21:37
60 odd home educating, 1000 home educating parents.
21:43
All of them have got relatives and friends.
21:46
All of them could sign that we could be at 100,000 signatures
21:51
within a matter of days. And yet we haven't.
21:55
And it's not that people aren't wanting to object.
21:59
I think it's the fear of getting something wrong.
22:01
And you also have fear which is instilled within the community
22:06
because people are hearing lots of things being said that
22:09
they're not sure it's right because they're, they've been
22:13
bombarded from all directions. And so they don't know what to
22:16
do. They've become frozen.
22:18
So I think it it would be really helpful if people could sort of
22:22
take a deep breath and try to overcome that fear.
22:25
You're not going to be harmed by doing what you need to do.
22:28
It's not going to make a difference to you as an
22:30
individual negatively. But every voice, every voice
22:35
counts. You cannot build a house without
22:38
hundreds and hundreds of bricks. You can't grow a tree without
22:42
thousands of molecules. And we are all those building
22:45
blocks of the objection against the things that are wrong.
22:49
So things such as this is a March by you, go along if you
22:53
feel able, talk to your MP. It's gone past the House of
22:58
Commons, but there is insurrection currently in the
23:02
ranks and current government ranks.
23:04
And if your MP happens to be concerned that this isn't good,
23:08
they've had to follow with voting because of the whip, but
23:12
they might raise enough concerns that that perhaps it might just
23:17
be that amendments coming from the Lord's will be good and will
23:21
be accepted. Speak.
23:23
If you know anybody who's in the media, speak to them about how
23:27
this will affect you and why you're frightened by it.
23:30
If you know anybody in the House of Lords, speak to them.
23:33
If you would like to send your story about how this bill would
23:37
affect you and how frightened you are, send it to Education.
23:41
Otherwise, we can pass it on to one of the relevant peers for
23:44
you or you can contact them directly.
23:47
Lord Lord Wayne that way is collecting stories.
23:50
He won't use them all. Rafe Lucas, Lord Lucas would be
23:54
happy to collect stories and he will use those that he can.
23:58
So there are things you can do and we can pass that on for you
24:01
if needs be. Now, I think another really
24:03
important thing to do is try not to be fearful for the majority
24:09
of parents. This bill, if it goes through
24:11
exactly as it is, it will cause an inconvenience, but it should
24:16
not. It should not affect how you are
24:19
able to home educate your child. For those parents who are going
24:24
under children's services investigation, there is a lot of
24:28
support out there. There's a lot of it.
24:31
The trick there is to take a deep breath and say, I know my
24:35
education is fabulous. Continue to educate.
24:39
Now I ought to come to something Kelly that parents are
24:44
contacting us currently asking what will happen to me if I
24:48
refuse to comply because I'm not going to comply.
24:53
Now as as a legal professional, I can't advise anyone to not
24:57
abide by the law. As a charity, we cannot advise
25:00
anyone to not abide by the law. But what we can do is explain to
25:05
parents what would happen if they didn't so that they can
25:09
make their own choices. It's not our place to make
25:13
parents choices for them of. Course not.
25:15
Yeah. And if you were to say no, I am
25:19
not going to send you 60 odd pieces of information every
25:23
fortnight about everybody I use, then realistically what is going
25:28
to happen in that scenario? The chance of the local
25:32
authority prosecuting you simply on that basis isn't very high.
25:36
And if they do, yet your education is Absolutely Fabulous
25:41
and you've provided information to the local authority about how
25:44
fabulous your education is. I cannot imagine a court finding
25:49
the parent guilty. As I said earlier on, the other
25:52
question we're being asked is what if I refuse to register?
25:56
Well, right now there are people who are not on their local
26:01
authority in formal registers. These are informal registers.
26:04
And there are, there are some parents who are not known to the
26:08
local authority. Now, the number not known to
26:11
their local authority is actually an awful lot smaller
26:14
than the number who think they're not known to their local
26:17
authority because people will say they're not known to their
26:20
local authority because they've deregistered a child from
26:23
school. But the local authority perhaps
26:24
hasn't been in touch with them, but they are still known to
26:28
their local authority. And the situation if you didn't
26:31
register would be exactly the same if the local authority
26:35
located you having not known about you.
26:38
If you hadn't registered, the only difference might be there
26:42
might be a bit quicker to serve a notice to satisfy.
26:46
If it happened now, they would ask you for information and if
26:50
they didn't like it, serve a notice to satisfy.
26:53
So effectively you're in the same position as you always
26:56
were. Now, this is one of the things
27:00
we've been telling government about the bill.
27:02
I happen to know, and I'm sorry to use this as an analogy.
27:06
I'm only using the form of registration as an analogy.
27:09
I do not compare home educating parent to this cohort.
27:13
I happen to know the statistics for the sex offenders register
27:17
because it's something I analysed now.
27:21
This is the most crucial register to protect children and
27:24
adults in this country from sex offenders.
27:28
Yet there are hundreds and hundreds of sex offenders for
27:33
whom the police have no clue where they are and who have
27:36
disappeared and simply their name's on the register, but
27:40
nobody knows where they are. So if the police, who have got
27:43
phenomenal resources for keeping track of offenders, serious
27:48
offenders cannot keep track of those offenders, how is some
27:53
poor local authority officer who does not have those resources
27:58
going to hunt down and find every single home educator who's
28:01
not already on the list? It's unrealistic to think that
28:04
my. Diabolical.
28:06
So So what happens there is those, those parents, those
28:12
amongst amongst the community who are open and decent and
28:17
honest and caring and just want to get on with everyone will
28:22
say, Oh well, I'm going to just just carry on as I am talking to
28:25
my local authority. Those equal honest and decent
28:29
and caring parents who are just not known to their local
28:34
authority aren't going to put their hand up and say register
28:37
me please, because it comes with possible punishment.
28:42
And who brought tears for that? So if they're already not known,
28:45
they're not going to come forward.
28:47
Now we then look at the tiny, tiny little cohort, and it is
28:52
tiny. In every cohort you have bad
28:55
apples. That happens everywhere in the
28:57
world. So even if it's only one or two
29:00
very bad apples, those are the bad apples the register will
29:04
never find. It's, they're not going to
29:07
volunteer themselves, are they? And I think they're not going to
29:09
want any more investigations. They're just going to hide for
29:11
as long as they can possibly get away with, aren't they of.
29:14
Course they are. And so this register's not going
29:17
to do what it achieves. And I, I think that I don't
29:21
think the register, I think the register will come into place
29:24
from the feedback I'm receiving. I don't think the next
29:27
government will remove the register per SE because it has
29:30
got cross party support, but I think that that time will tell
29:36
that this is not going to work as it's supposed to work.
29:41
So even if it comes in come the next election, I doubt we'll
29:46
have the same government as things are looking and come the
29:50
next election, chances are this will be changed.
29:53
So you've got lots of different things happening and I think the
29:57
answer is I don't think much will happen to you different to
30:00
what happens now if you do refuse to register.
30:03
But I cannot advise you not to register, because I cannot
30:06
advise you not to break the law. I suppose at the end of the day,
30:10
once it comes into force, if it does, then there will obviously
30:13
be parameters explained to us that if we do not, then these
30:16
these potential punishments may be put in place.
30:18
And I think what's, what's always really fascinating to me
30:21
is that if they actually stop to talk to home educators a little
30:25
and actually understood a little bit about our ethos, they may
30:27
understand that actually reward and punishment is not something
30:30
that we particularly adhere to or appreciate or like our
30:35
children to be involved in. And ultimately this kind of
30:39
concept of do as you're told or else you'll be punished is not
30:42
really something that we, we particularly enjoy the, the
30:45
concepts of anyway. But, but actually, if they
30:48
really thought about that for a minute and thought, why don't
30:50
they agree with this? Why don't they actually
30:52
appreciate this kind of behaviour?
30:54
And they thought to themselves, why is it that like home
30:56
educators aren't speaking to local authority?
30:58
Why aren't they just saying, like, this is what we're
31:00
choosing to do? Well, it's because of this,
31:02
isn't it? Or again, looking at their own
31:03
behaviours, looking at what they've been doing to the home
31:06
education community over history and what that actually has
31:08
caused and the distrust and the the fact that actually people
31:12
would like ultimately to lead their lives in a way that suits
31:16
them without loads of oversight. And equally, the other thing as
31:21
well that kind of popped into my head as you were speaking is
31:22
that kind of the concept of catching, catching flies with
31:27
threat of death is not going to make anybody happy.
31:30
But if you put some honey out, then all of a sudden you have
31:32
lots of flies. And ultimately, I, I literally
31:35
on our last podcast episode, we were talking about the concept
31:38
of how essentially the government are very concerned,
31:42
it seems that home educated children are not receiving the
31:45
same standard of education. Let's argue about that another
31:49
time as children in schools, fine, that's their strange
31:52
opinions. But ultimately they then are not
31:55
at all willing to put their money or resources or any kind
32:00
of expertise where their mouth is.
32:02
If they're they're sitting there saying we're concerned that
32:04
they're not receiving it. And then we put a petition
32:05
through to try and say, well, can you give us access to
32:08
examinations? Can we get some of the funds
32:10
that you'd normally pay to schools so that we can claim for
32:13
educational resources for our children or trips or days out?
32:16
Nope. If you decide to have a, you're
32:17
on your own. But if I'm on my own, then why
32:20
do you get to criticise me for not being able to pay for my
32:24
child to go to tennis? Like if if you want all children
32:26
to be able to have access to a maths GCSE, then please do
32:29
ensure that my child has access to a maths GCSE then please.
32:32
And it's just such an it's so ironic.
32:34
I just don't understand how they can stand in government ranting
32:40
about how you've got all these potential children at risk of
32:43
not receiving a good quality education. £1000 a year is going
32:46
into a school. If a child goes to school to pay
32:48
for their place in that school per year and as a as a family.
32:52
I've got 2 school aged children. If I was receiving £16,000 a
32:56
year to spend on their education, my goodness, like the
33:00
quality that I could offer them for that is just unreal.
33:03
And I think what's shocking is that obviously we have schools
33:06
which have these massive overheads.
33:08
You've got all of this staff to pay for, all the resources to
33:10
pay for all these examinations to pay for or whatever's right.
33:14
But clearly that money doesn't go very far.
33:16
It doesn't actually manage to create a great environment for
33:19
the teachers, the children, the school quality of the building,
33:22
all of it is deteriorating. Whereas as I say, 16,000 lbs for
33:27
one family to make an amazing. And then that gives a parent the
33:31
opportunity to choose, do I go to work or do I stay home and
33:35
parent my children and raise them and educate them, provide
33:38
them with a fantastic kind of opportunity.
33:41
Even if that money has to be put under some sort of like, you
33:44
send them receipts and they refund you for things so that
33:47
you're not just spending it on random rubbish, whatever.
33:49
But yeah, I honestly think that it would just make such a
33:51
massive difference and would allow parents to honestly make a
33:54
good choice for their family if it made sense.
33:56
Honestly, I'm just sort of like spit balling kind of ideas here.
34:00
But the the irony behind it really is just not lost on me.
34:02
It's really frustrating that we are sitting here going, you are
34:06
concerned that we're not doing it.
34:08
You want to fine us, potentially imprison us if we do not do
34:11
exactly what you want us to do. But you are not interested in
34:15
actually helping us, not truly. That's, that's not interest.
34:18
That's not an interest of yours. And that's what really
34:19
frustrates me more than anything else, I think is, is that.
34:23
I think the fee for a single exam entry last year was
34:26
something like 62 lbs for an external candidate.
34:29
And when we've raised this with the government the the responses
34:32
we've received have been, well we don't want to encourage home
34:36
education and if we pay for things it'll encourage it.
34:39
But actually if you look at cases where government do pay
34:43
monies to home educating families, that isn't the case at
34:46
all. Tasmania.
34:48
A friend of mine is Tasmanian and in Tasmania a parent who's
34:53
on a low income can claim means tested.
34:56
Our equivalent means tested on unemployment benefits.
34:59
If they're home educating, they don't have to demonstrate that
35:03
they're looking for work or look for work because their work is
35:07
the child's home education. And whilst that's only sort of a
35:11
very modest amount of money, it's it's benefits money.
35:14
It means that parents who are on a low income or have no
35:18
employment can actually educate their children in the knowledge
35:23
that they're not going to be forced to go back into work.
35:25
And that has worked incredibly well and it hasn't increased the
35:29
number of children coming to home education from what I'm
35:32
advised so that you can give benefits.
35:35
And actually in Wales during COVID, the government gave £200
35:40
per home educated child to the local authority to spend as it
35:46
each local authority felt fit to benefit home educated children.
35:51
And I had people ringing the helpline saying I'm not known to
35:55
the local authority, how can I contact them because they're
35:58
giving away free this, that and the other.
36:00
And so we had people actually wanting to be known to the local
36:04
authority that wanted this. Now we had a situation in Wales
36:09
where we have 22 local authorities and there was not a
36:13
single local authority that would have gone on my Red List
36:17
on our RAG rating. They were all in general terms.
36:21
Welsh local authorities were considered with respect and
36:25
considered to be positive to our parents then then after COVID
36:32
and the government stopped that and we went to trying to
36:36
introduce more draconian measures and they issued new
36:40
guidance. It was more than a year ago now
36:43
they issued new guidance saying effectively it was mandatory to
36:47
have meetings. And we we monitored after that
36:51
the effect on people's opinions of their local authority and the
36:55
number of parents not known and families not known to local
36:59
authorities. And we found that whereas
37:03
previously we had all greenrected, which was
37:06
considered good, two of them had gone into red and nearly all of
37:12
the southern South Wales authorities had had gone into
37:16
amber. And the in North Wales, where we
37:19
have a conglomerate which is Absolutely Fabulous, they do
37:23
really perform well, they all remained green and in fact their
37:27
positivity rating went up. So where the government has
37:31
introduced draconian measures, measures that aren't agreed with
37:35
by home educators, relationships between parents and local
37:39
authorities become worse. And we've seen this in overseas
37:44
as well, where there is good quality research that found that
37:48
where measures similar to those being introduced by this
37:52
government are introduced against the wishes of the
37:56
population, the the unknowns to the local authorities actually
38:01
rocket. So one particular state where
38:04
that happened a few years ago, it was there was an estimate of
38:08
10 to 15% unknown and the the academic estimate is now 80%.
38:14
So we've got this this strange idea that you threaten parents
38:19
and it makes them behave, whereas actually who threaten
38:23
home educators, who are the most feisty cohort of individuals I
38:27
know and what what happens. They say, Nope, we're not going
38:33
to do this. And I I think the idea that it's
38:38
in 1870, the government decided the threats of finest and
38:43
punishment would make parents send their children to school.
38:47
Every single government since has used threats of fines and
38:52
punishment to try to force parents to send their children
38:56
to school. And from 1870 right through to
39:00
nearly 1980, it was the mid 1970's, the percentage of
39:04
children not going to school was identical, no matter how much
39:07
those threats of punishment increased.
39:10
You would have thought the government would have learnt
39:12
from that, wouldn't you? And I think what's interesting
39:15
is they've obviously recently pushed those fines up and stuff
39:19
as well and, and made even more pressure onto parents.
39:21
And actually what's happening is parents are going, OK, do you
39:24
know what? I'm just putting them out then
39:26
I'm just deregistering them. Like if, if they can't get there
39:29
and you're just going to keep fining me, they can't be there
39:32
because the quality of the schooling isn't there.
39:33
The send provisions aren't there.
39:35
My child is being bullied relentlessly.
39:37
They're at risk of, of doing all kinds of horrible things for
39:40
themselves. I am absolutely not sending them
39:42
anymore. So fine, I'm just going to have
39:43
to deregister and find another way, whether that's temporary or
39:46
not. Like whether their plan is to
39:48
get them back into school or not.
39:50
But ultimately all I think what's really frustrating again
39:54
though, listening to that is, is the kind of concept again of
39:57
governments thinking, well, I don't want more more home
39:59
educators. We don't want more people to do
40:01
register. Why not?
40:03
Why not? And I think like when we're
40:06
looking at how there's a lot of talk as well in the government
40:09
as well at the moment about kind of making sure that there's more
40:12
childcare, like more funded hours available from younger
40:14
ages. They want mothers back at work
40:16
earlier. They want children in school
40:18
earlier in the day and having their breakfast clubs, they want
40:20
them. You know what I mean?
40:21
Like all these things, which just like take them away more
40:23
from their family environment so the parents can work more.
40:26
And it's just like, well, actually, if you actually cause
40:31
families to live these really segmented different lives and
40:33
everyone's super busy and super stressed and just trying to make
40:36
money and trying to get through the week, every single week, all
40:38
you're seeing is this massive mental health crisis.
40:40
I mean, all these things are connected, but it really is so,
40:43
so shocking that so many of us can see it.
40:45
But the government is just seem to be just being like, Nope, I'm
40:47
not, I'm not seeing it. Put a blink is on like it's not
40:50
our fault. No, no, we just need to carry on
40:52
as we are. It's too expensive to change it,
40:54
too difficult to change it. Whatever the concept is.
40:56
Ultimately, if you gave families a choice and you said like you
41:01
either can go back to work or after your maternity pay
41:05
finishes, there will be X amount of funds available to you.
41:09
If you can prove that you are providing a quality home
41:13
environment for your child and providing them with these
41:16
amazing opportunities, or you'd have access to a fund that would
41:18
allow you to either that that childcare fund is either to send
41:22
them to a nursery or you can claim it as a parent to cover
41:26
activities and things that you want to organise individually.
41:28
Like say you want to put them into some clubs or classes or
41:30
get them an early tutor or whatever you might want to do
41:33
like. But actually, if you said you
41:34
can claim that money for you or you can pay it to a childcare
41:37
provider, same as you can send them to school or you can claim
41:41
that money and you can support them at home, what's the
41:44
problem? And we know what the problem is,
41:46
don't we really? I mean, it's, it comes down to
41:48
agenda. It comes down to messaging and
41:50
the fact that they want obviously most of us to go
41:52
through a school and get the same messaging and come out of
41:54
it the same. And they worry about, obviously
41:57
the potential different routes that humankind will go on, the
42:01
different tangents we may end up following with our belief
42:03
systems. Parallel societies.
42:05
Yeah, but I think why can't it be considered as actually, we're
42:10
not all going to end up so staunchly different that we
42:12
can't get along or can't work together or can't achieve
42:14
amazing outcomes as a human community That maybe actually
42:17
what that would create is more community.
42:19
Like, I I don't know, I just find it quite odd that we can't
42:21
possibly think of it in a positive way that people having
42:25
different ideas and beliefs is actually a great thing.
42:28
I think it's like John Holt who talks about like the the death
42:31
of the sort of innovation in America where people kind of
42:34
went there looking for a new life and new opportunity that
42:37
and they were all coming up with these great ideas and everyone
42:39
was considered an equal. And that was what the kind of
42:41
the foundings of America was supposed to be when kind of
42:43
compulsory schooling came in and completely destroyed it.
42:46
It's like that. It's so interesting, I think
42:48
that we just seem to have such a negative idea of difference in
42:53
all of the different capacities in life, whether it be
42:55
disability, race, age, that there's so many negative stigmas
42:59
attached to everything. And instead of just actually
43:01
having some like, I don't know, potential, seeing the potential.
43:06
I could go on for ages about our social othering.
43:09
It's something that it's right within our society and and you
43:13
see it the if you look at gangs, that's what's used when you're
43:17
teaching students who are doing sociology degrees, you teach
43:20
them about othering gangs are used as an example.
43:23
So if you live in this particular St. you are part of
43:26
this gang. And if you live in the next
43:29
street or you are somehow different or sometimes other and
43:33
therefore you are lesser and therefore we are against you.
43:37
And that othering is something that trying to funnel everybody
43:41
through one mass channel actually creates.
43:45
Because then what it does is it says if you are not mainstream
43:49
and following the same same channel, you are somehow
43:52
different and somehow lesser. And actually we have a need for
43:56
an Equality Act because we we have developed a society where
44:01
equality is frowned upon because anything that is not very much
44:06
mainstream and regular is different.
44:08
And we see it in every community.
44:11
And I think that when you look at societies where difference is
44:15
celebrated and is promoted, you actually have societies which
44:20
have better outcomes. So you you take, you take the
44:25
average entrepreneur is, is not somebody who has been mainstream
44:30
during their school years. The average entrepreneur who has
44:34
achieved great things. Take a look at Richard Branson
44:37
is somebody who's had a quirky background, who's been a bit
44:40
different, who's gone through a slightly different route and who
44:44
has never quite, they've always been that square peg in the
44:47
round hole. Society should actually
44:50
encourage square peg and not try to knock their corners off
44:54
because those square pegs are the people who are innovative.
44:58
And to be fair, when you look at home education, they're square,
45:01
they're triangular, they're triangular.
45:04
We have all manner of pegs. And the the main rise in home
45:09
educated numbers has been driven in the last couple of years by
45:13
those families whose children are not coping in school.
45:17
They are the square peg people. And those square pegs are coming
45:21
to us not because the parent wants to home educate, because
45:25
most parents start off thinking I'll send my child to school,
45:27
will have 2.2 children, et cetera because it's a social
45:31
expectation. But it's because the school
45:34
isn't catering for the child in the way that the parent feels is
45:38
right for the child. And so they come to home
45:41
education. So the last thing we want is
45:43
government saying, well, we, we want your home education to look
45:47
like your child is in the same classroom.
45:50
That's, that's broken their edges.
45:53
We want that. We want those and triangular
45:56
and, and multifaceted people because society does not thrive
46:01
without them. But I'm afraid that this is it.
46:04
It's in my view, it's more to do with with ideology than it is
46:13
with the best interests of children.
46:16
Coming back to the bill, the children's well-being in schools
46:19
bill. What a dreadful title.
46:21
Children's Well-being in Schools Bill is not based on children's
46:26
best interests. It's based on ideology,
46:29
political ideology that this particular government has been
46:34
waiting to implement since before it's during the whole
46:38
period it hasn't been in government.
46:41
And they are so doggedly determined to try to implement
46:44
this that they are not listening to reason to, to ordinary people
46:50
saying to them, look, this will not work because look, you need
46:55
to amend this. And what I'm hoping is that the,
47:00
although the respect from this particular government appears in
47:03
the House of Lords is not as great as, as I believe it should
47:07
be because of their expertise. I think that they should listen.
47:11
They should listen. These are people who have got
47:15
most peers, have got a lot of life experience.
47:18
They have the time to to investigate and listen to what
47:22
people are saying to them. They're not busy working MPs who
47:26
have to do their surgeries and what have you.
47:29
They are people who are dedicated to actually doing what
47:33
they do in the House of Lords, and I think they can be much
47:37
more considered. So if the government listens to
47:40
what the House of Lords is saying, you want to amend.
47:43
With luck, the House of Lords will make those amendments,
47:47
which will make this bill rather less unpalatable than it is.
47:52
I'm not suggesting it will be palatable, but I'm it could be a
47:57
lot less palatable and still achieve what the government
48:00
hopes it will achieve. And a final note, I would like
48:03
to just reiterate, this bill is not going to save a single
48:07
child's life. I've yet to find a child who
48:10
lost their life because they were home educated.
48:13
And even if there were those children, which there are not
48:17
this bill, a register sending in lots of documentation would
48:22
never make a difference to any single child.
48:25
So calling into children's well-being Bill is just
48:29
fanciful. Yeah.
48:32
And I think also it kind of it emphasizes in its own way that
48:35
this is almost the tip of the iceberg, that if they want to
48:37
start making some changes, that this is the first step for them
48:40
in in trying to put more well-being things into practice.
48:43
And I think one of the things I always kind of liken it to is
48:47
say, for example, it was about criminals.
48:49
Like obviously it's not at all like we are not criminals as
48:51
home educating parents whatsoever.
48:53
But like, if you were to say, right, I want everyone to Simply
48:55
put themselves on a register and tell us that they are not a
48:58
criminal. And it's just like, OK, does
48:59
that reassure you? No, OK, so we want a letter from
49:02
them all now to say that they're not a criminal.
49:04
OK, here you go. Here's my letter.
49:05
I'm not a criminal. Does that reassure you?
49:07
No, it doesn't do anything to them.
49:10
And then they're just going to go further and further.
49:12
And I think that the the goal is for us for sure.
49:14
And I know that it can feel very scary when we do push back these
49:17
things. But as I say, just to kind of re
49:18
emphasize what Wendy said earlier, whatever you feel
49:22
capable of doing, whether it is sending your thoughts and
49:25
opinions to someone like education, otherwise, to then
49:28
use those, how they're being used with the Lords, whether
49:31
it's to put something on social media, to do a video with your
49:33
kids, to put some word out there, whatever you feel like
49:37
you want to do or need to do. Go to a March, send a letter to
49:40
your MP. Just speak up.
49:42
Just say what you're feeling, even if you're reiterating the
49:46
exact same thing as the people around you.
49:48
Like even if it's the exact same thing.
49:50
I think there's some open letters going around as well
49:52
where people have written something and you can just sign
49:55
your name to it and say, yes, I agree with this too.
49:58
Just do something and and obviously talking to your
50:01
family, talking to your friends, letting people know that these
50:04
things are a thing and that actually this effects children
50:06
in school and it affects them in their future.
50:10
People may have a child who is starting reception, we have one
50:13
year 2 and they're doing OK right now, but in a few years
50:15
time they might want to home educate them and actually find
50:17
themselves finding that tricky because of new regulations.
50:21
So it matters to all of us with children to actually maintain
50:25
the rights of a parent to parent their own children.
50:29
And I think we just have to always come together and support
50:33
each other and fight for that when we can.
50:35
But thank you so much, Wendy, for coming on and telling us and
50:38
more about it. It's definitely cleared a lot up
50:40
for me and helped me to really think about this a bit better as
50:42
well. So I really appreciate your
50:45
time. Thank you for the adorable
50:47
contributions of your little dog as well.
50:48
Bless you that so you're wrestling with on your lap
50:51
several times. We're like just shush.
50:54
Oh, bless you. So apologies, but it was quite
50:56
good fun. But I I've loved having a lovely
50:58
conversation with you again. So thank you so much for your
51:00
time and I'm wishing you have a wonderful rest of your.
51:03
Day, anyone out there, if you're worried, you're welcome.
51:05
Ring our helpline, it's zero, 300-124-5690.
51:11
If you are concerned and you're not sure, you can always ring
51:14
the helpline and we will. We will give you the answers
51:17
that we may not be able to resolve every problem, but we
51:20
will help you and signpost you if we can't.
51:24
So just do that. Liz, there is someone there to
51:27
talk to. Lovely.
51:29
Thank you, Ken. Brilliant.
51:30
Thank you very much. Have a great day.
51:32
Bye. Bye bye.