Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 265 - The Second Oswald w_ Andrei Codrescu

Transcript

JFK Assassination - Ep. 265 - The Second Oswald w_ Andrei Codrescu · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

0:01
Here Men Movie and Joey joe Be Be Babe to Me and Joey set alone
0:09
drama, Why Die Tomoy and Joby, Joby and the bab Joey and Joby
0:16
send alone dramas, Why Di and Jarman? How were sinking the un I'm
0:29
cham in the non comment dichize and you we go? What's up? Everybody?
0:44
Welcome to the show. This is episode number two hundred and sixty five
0:48
of the Lingaman Podcast with me as usual as my co host, Joe Borelli.
0:53
Joe, Welcome, Good morning today. We have a very special guest
0:57
joining the show, uh who recently put out an episodic podcast entitled His Second
1:06
Oswald that has to do with Carrie Thornley. And Andre has many many accolades
1:12
to his name. A poet, an author, screenwriter, you name it.
1:19
This guy has done it all. Welcome to the show. Andre could
1:22
rescue. Thank you, Thank you. You also said the name right,
1:26
which is really rare. I listen, sir, a good here, Thank
1:34
you, thank you for joining us. So, of course, the reason
1:38
you're here, this is a show that's dedicated to the Kennedy assassination and you
1:44
know, kind of looking into things researching into things and exploring different avenues.
1:49
The people, the characters, there's a lot of them, you know,
1:53
when you're talking about the Kennedy assassination, and you hit on a good one
1:57
with your podcast, if you could andre you know, you've done a lot
2:05
of different things in your life. What led you to become interested in doing
2:09
a podcast like this? Well, I did some journalism along with my poetry
2:16
and my radio commentaries. I went to Romania during the revolution in nineteen eighty
2:24
nine, and there was an awful lot of you know, public facing lies,
2:30
you know there, and you know, found out really wanted to the
2:35
background of it, and I, you know, I became interested in what's
2:39
what's behind the the you know, official versions of stories of important events and
2:49
so this and of course the Kennedy assassination was the first thing that we saw
2:53
on Romanian television. And I was a child in nineteen sixty three. We
2:58
had television sets in the Romaine, but we didn't have relay stations, so
3:01
people just watch test patterns. And then in November nineteen sixty three, a
3:08
Romanian commentator up here trying to explain other incoherently what was going on in the
3:15
United States and there are images of Dallas. And the commentator was, you
3:22
know, talk about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And I was
3:25
interested in the buildings because I was in you know, I've never seen American
3:30
buildings that all. I was living in an old medieval city. And then
3:35
the commentator said something amazing, he said, and this is right when it
3:38
was going on. He said, well, the president had been assassinated by
3:44
Lindon Jones. This was this is the first, you know, official comment
3:50
that came from somewhere in the depths of coming television in Romania. So I've
3:55
never saw that for a long time, you know, and I kept thinking
4:00
about it, and of course I became interested just like everyone else. When
4:04
you know, I started reading some books about, you know, the different
4:09
theories of conspiracy that about about the assassination, and uh, you know,
4:16
eventually, when Ram Devinnim, the producer of Rada Paalax, came to me
4:24
and said, did you like to, uh to to follow this this particular
4:31
strand, you know, unexplored strand of thinking in the conspiracy and the assassination
4:39
of John F. Kennedy. I said yes, and then we launched on
4:42
this journey and went and made different visits, interviewed people, and uh,
4:47
read books and thought about it, and I thought, well, you know,
4:53
should we do have a new a new thread here? So I thought
5:00
was very well done. The production of value and quality is amazing. And
5:05
a lot of the interviews, you know, of course, you managed to
5:10
get like Joan Mellon Saunder London, who I thought was I didn't know,
5:15
you know about her interviews with Thornley in the nineties. There was that's amazing
5:19
audio to hear. That's the first time I've ever heard it. Yeah,
5:24
she was spectacular. She found Kerry Turnley in Atlanta where he was homeless and
5:30
handing out pamphlets and poetry on the street to people he was, and she
5:38
found him fascinating, took him to her house, gave him a shower,
5:41
and had him interviewed on television and carry very reasonably actually gave his story,
5:49
but which had changed from you know, having nothing to do with the assassination
5:55
of JFK too actually thinking that he did that as part of the conspiracy.
6:00
And you know, it doesn't sound crazy in there. I mean, he
6:04
has very good reasons to to to believe that. And the great thing about
6:11
Sandra is that she listened to him very carefully, and she has a kind
6:15
of minds that sees you know, the insights and the and the as you
6:24
know, the different different minds and the brilliant mind actually which carries Yeah,
6:31
Carrie Thornley was definitely a different cuff of a different mold, you know,
6:38
as far as what him and his friends were getting into. So let's let's
6:42
reel it all the way back to carry Thornley's formative formative years, you know,
6:46
in the fifties as he's growing up there in California and some of the
6:50
ideas he and his friends were getting with, and then you know, him
6:56
actually joining the Marines and getting to know Lee Oswald while there. Yeah,
7:02
kritarly grew up in with here California, which is the place where Nixon went
7:08
to college. It's just a parentheses. But the and his friend Greg Hill,
7:16
when they were still in high school, they they had a revelation on
7:20
the Bowling Alley of you know, of a new religion really microligion called Discordianism.
7:30
They called the Discordianism because it they saw in their you know, Bowling
7:36
Alley Beerfield vision. The Goddess Heiress which the Romans called Discordia, who the
7:46
goddess of chaos which rules the world, and they they sort of disagreed on
7:49
it because Gary thought that, you know, the world is chaos and the
7:57
human mind is what imposes a kind of order on the world. Where Scary
8:03
taught that the goddess in fact ruled the world and the human sweet humans who
8:09
are just following the odds whims of the goddess. And so this was beer,
8:16
you know, and I say beer because it was before psychedelics, it
8:20
was before rock and roll. This was nineteen fifty nine, and with here
8:24
California, this sort of suburban no airplace, and they were discussing this and
8:31
then sort of unexpectedly, really, I mean, I think unexpectedly. Carrie
8:35
Attornley joined the Marines in nineteen nineteen fifty nine and was based at the Too
8:46
Air Base in San Diego, where he met Lee Harvey Oswald, who was
8:52
a loner and then idealists who taught himself a communist, and Carrie is Kerry
9:01
liked talking to him, talking ideas with him, and also got the idea
9:09
of writing a novel about his fellow Marines, and started his novel in there
9:18
and took notes, and his major character in the book was Lee Harvey Oswald,
9:26
who he got to know because they talked about things. Kerry also defended
9:31
Oswald from his fellow soldiers who liked to make fun of his communism and his
9:37
ideas about you know, the Soviet Union, which at the time seemed to
9:45
Oswald to be the ideal place to be. So later, you know,
9:52
they Kerry was posted in Japan, the Atsuga, Japan near Tokyo, which
10:05
was the base for the YouTube plane and uh also a place where it was
10:11
a secret base where American planes intercept the Chinese and Russian planes if if they
10:18
somehow got in in over our airspace. And uh uh it was he did
10:28
some time there, I mean Oswald did. But then carry was posted in
10:31
the same the same air base later on and their time not overlap. Did
10:37
their time did not overlap in Japan. What's interesting about Japan, you know,
10:43
is to me was that uh uh, Lee Harvey Oswald has had a
10:48
girlfriend there and he was pretty you know, pugnacious, and you know,
10:54
he got into fights with people over all kinds of things. But then he
10:58
can't do when he got a girlfriend who was a Tokyo Club Hosts, which
11:07
most of the Marine started was way way above his you know, his class,
11:15
you know. But this was also a place where the CIA Bureau chief
11:24
at the time in Tokyo was a man named Snyder, Timothy Snyder, who
11:35
who may have come in contact to it as well through the Sniper Club.
11:41
So I mean, this is this is again apparentheses on a side, because
11:46
I mean what interested me was the fact that Kerry started writing his novel The
11:56
Idol Warriors, in which the main character was Lee Harvey Oswald, when when
12:01
he got out of the Marines and finished it, I mean, I was
12:05
trying to finish it when Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, and with that,
12:11
Carrie Todd he had an ending to his book, The Idol Warriors,
12:16
and he didn't know that this was really just the beginning, but he thought
12:20
he had an ending for his book. But the Oswald in his book is
12:24
named Johnny Shelburne. So that book is still available, you know, you
12:30
can get it somewhere, and it's really not half bad. Actually it's so
12:33
good now because he's the Marines are you know, closely observed and Aswald is
12:41
a well realized character yeah, and I think you know, Thornley is an
12:46
interesting writer. You know, he was. He was interested in poetry.
12:50
He was interested in writing, and with all of those crazy thoughts and everything
12:58
going on in his head, it made for an end arresting read, you
13:01
know, especially back in that time. Joe, you got anything? Yeah,
13:07
I wanted to point out something you talked about in episode one and how
13:13
he moved twenty times, how he was neglected by his mother, and how
13:20
that created an emotional disturbance in Oswalt to kind of become a nonconformist, if
13:26
you will, right, all right, Well, Oswald moved, you know
13:30
about twenty times soon before he you know, it was even thirteen years old,
13:37
so it was very different. But they did carry and Oswald and Carrie
13:41
had something in common. It was the city of New Orleans, because Oswald
13:46
was born in New Orleans, and Carrie headed for New Orleans because it thought
13:52
he thought that would be a good place to recite his poetry and become a
13:56
known writer, because New Orleans is famous for its bohemia and its writers,
14:03
and so that in New Orleans they may have overlapped. Now, if they
14:09
had overlapped the neurons, then the story takens because you know, in a
14:16
in a later investigation by District Attorney Jim Garrison in New Orleans, if if
14:26
Oswalt and carry had met in New Orleans and I've met other people, uh,
14:35
then he did have a part in if there was a plot to assess
14:39
in John F. Kennedy, there was, there were reasons to pursue that
14:46
line of inquiry, which Garrison did and then dropped. Yeah. Yeah,
14:52
And I also thought one first of all, you're the way you narrate the
14:58
podcast series is great. A lot of the quotes really hit home with me,
15:01
and I'm going to read one of them now. The issue, and
15:05
you're talking about New Orleans and conspiracies, The issue is that it is hard
15:09
to agree to one or dispute the other. They all seem plausible and ridiculous,
15:13
that's the same time, but in New Orleans they could all sound almost
15:18
reasonable. And that is just really interesting. And you let into actually the
15:28
question we were going to ask you is Thornley stated that he did not come
15:33
in contact with Oswalt in nineteen sixty three, but there are a lot of
15:41
people that say that he came in contact with people like Carlo Springey guy banister
15:48
David Ferry. So how would you know Oswalt was the talk of the town,
15:52
right, you know, standing there with a big sign on top on
15:56
top of him over I'm a placard in circles. Yeah, it seems not
16:03
plausible that Thornley would have not been aware that his old Marine Corps buddy,
16:07
who he was writing a novel about, would would be unaware of that.
16:15
Now we want to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, I agree with
16:18
that. You know, the Bohemia and New Orleans in the early sixties was
16:22
a small place and so it's almost unavoidable that they they ran into each other.
16:27
It's also unavoidable because Lee was very visible. He distributed pamphlet for a
16:38
CIA front for Cuba and he got into a fight with another say front or
16:45
Cuba, which you know, or against Castro, and you know he he
16:52
gave an interview on the radio about you know, his position and on Cuba.
16:57
You know, but it was all very you know. I mean that
17:02
this place is in an alley right off the French quarters. So even just
17:06
walking around you see people. You know, Napoleon House isn't very far from
17:12
from this alley or the Cuba Front was, and you know, or Banister's
17:21
office was, and all of this stuff is You're talking a few streets overs
17:26
because you know, I mean I saw everybody I knew at breakfast, you
17:30
know, or you know, after staying up all night of course, but
17:36
you know, it's you know, and it's also a place that has entertained
17:41
a lot of conspiracies in the past. So conspiracies are sort of in the
17:47
DNA of New Orleans. I mean, you stay up in one of these
17:51
places like the Napoleon House, which was built for Napoleon, a bunch of
17:56
conspirators who are going to get the emperor from his island of exile and bring
18:00
him to New Orleans. It didn't work because Napoleon died before they got there,
18:04
but it's still there, and it's just the presence of things, you
18:07
know, I mean, the place is it's thicket ghosts and failed conspiracies and
18:12
people who fantasize about what they should do, you know, if they actually
18:18
get around to it next day. So you know, it was a very
18:22
natural place. And so Garson, you know, Jim Garrison followed that,
18:26
you know, and the people that and Tormally, you know, admitted that
18:34
he had met these people, but he said that he didn't see OUs well
18:40
there, although there was you know, somebody signed an affidevit that she saw
18:45
them together at somebar. But you know, it's almost irrelevant to their they
18:52
met or not, because they had the same the same people are around and
18:56
that that is documented. Later Kerry changed his mind. He said that he
19:03
may have met As in New Orleans and that in fact, you know,
19:07
he probably had something to do with the entire plan to kill John F.
19:15
Kennedy, because this is something he talked about with his friends in the French
19:22
Quarter. They talked about killing Kennedy. I mean, this is part of
19:25
their discussions. You know that Kerry says in not just in his testimony before
19:32
the Warrant Commission, but you know, just in interviews. He says,
19:36
well, he hated Kennedy, but because he was a follower and reader of
19:42
Ain Rand, who believed in capitalism overalls, which was very different than Kennedy's
19:48
policies, and you know, their political differences. But for some reason he
19:52
had real feelings against Kennedy. And they talked about how would you kill the
19:59
president? How would you do that? And this discussion sort of you know.
20:03
I mean sometimes Garry said, well was just drunk and talk at the
20:07
bar, but you know, in retrospect they seemed quite serious. Yeah.
20:15
So you know New Orleans is full of all these colorful characters. And Thorny
20:19
talks about a couple of them, a guy named Slim and a guy named
20:25
brother in law and if brother in law is a real person, and who
20:33
Carrie Thorny thought that he may be, what does that add to the conspiracy?
20:41
Well, this brother in law claimed to be a Nazi. I mean,
20:47
this is something Carrie always talked about and later but you know they he
20:55
thought it does all, you know, talk later after what gets carry thought
21:02
that the Nazi brother in law that he knew in New Orleans. So well,
21:06
I was really hard Hunt. They didn't look a whole lot alike.
21:11
But you know, if he was the Howard Hunt and he was a CIA
21:17
operative, who could look any way he wanted to. And so there is
21:22
a moment of an important moment in you know there maybe two months before the
21:29
assassination, were brother in law and Carrie and the number of their friends are
21:36
sitting around and brother in law says, well, if we did we have
21:44
to frame somebody if we kill Kennedy. And Carrie says, why do you
21:49
need to frame somebody? And he said, because people will want answers,
21:56
And so Carrie says, well, I don't to don't you frame a communist?
22:02
Which was the expected answer because he had already written in Idol Soldiers about
22:08
Lee Harvey Oswald reading Mark Carrol Martin being a communist and at the time Oswald
22:18
had already defected the Soviet Union, and I was living there rather unhappily,
22:22
but living there, and so it made a lot of sense. And that
22:27
was the end of that discussion. But in the end they said, well
22:33
uctly he heard, well he had brother in law said why don't you frame
22:38
a jailbird? And Kerry replied, well, while don't you frame a communist?
22:45
Because that was his answer from the book, from his own book.
22:52
So you know, later on, when Kerry taught back on it, he
22:59
decided that you know, the phrase why don't they frame a jailbird? It
23:03
was in fact the kind of a trigger phrase for his you know, for
23:10
his state of mind, you know, to int aultra programming. Yeah,
23:15
I was a form of grainwashing, and you know, you got the mentoring
23:19
and candidate idea here, Yeah, and I think there had to be more
23:26
than one possible patsy because you know, Lee r V Haswall could be hit
23:32
by a boss and killed crossing the street, So you do, you know,
23:36
they were playing the long game, that's the CIA. You would think
23:41
naturally they would have at least a few possible suspects. We've heard of them
23:45
of suspects in different cities, Chicago and in Florida too. But Thornly seemed
23:53
like he had more awareness right that than Lee did and what what and allow
24:00
himself to be used in that way? And he did flee New Orleans a
24:10
couple of days after the assassinations are correct, Yes, And not only that,
24:15
but in his testimony before the Warrant Commission, he didn't tell the commission
24:19
about the brother in law or his friends in New Orleans. And he says
24:26
he did because he didn't want to get in trouble for things he didn't do.
24:30
But then later on for Jim Garrison, he didn't tell Jim Garrison either,
24:37
And this was New Orleans and they already knew about it, and so
24:40
you know, he's kind of you know, skipping over that, you know,
24:45
seems sort of deliberate, but which later he claims he did indeed,
24:49
you know, not talk about it on purpose. Well, you mentioned in
24:53
your podcast series he ran too slim on the way there. How small of
25:03
a town it is, yeah, exactly, Well this was just after the
25:06
assassination and oh no, this is just before the garson indicted him. Actually,
25:11
and uh, he was asked whether you know he you know, he
25:18
was told not to mention brother in law under any circumstances, and he didn't.
25:26
So this was a fresh event that shook the country and the world,
25:32
and you would think that, uh, he would take this a little more
25:37
seriously, but he shined it on, you know, or pretended later he
25:45
later he said, well, his memory, you know, of these these
25:48
things came back to him. And because you know, he was also diagnosed
25:52
to the time it's a paranoid schizophrenic. And but you know you could do
25:59
that just read his poetry. You know he's not, you know, parandoise
26:03
schizophrenic. He's a very highly reasonable and intelligent guy. In fact, so
26:08
intelligent that he could pass a paradis schizophrenic if he tested somehow he would pretend
26:19
to be that, you know, he could I totally agree. I think
26:26
you had something you said that he was born a second too soon, or
26:30
probably a decade or too soon. But he was you know, he talked
26:37
about the depopulation agenda, right, which is talked about today by you know,
26:44
the world's richest man, very openly. So he was a man before
26:48
his time. And I learned so much about Thornley from this, and I
26:55
am going to read this book. I'm very interested. I can't wait.
26:57
But it was fascinating and you really put New Orleans in perspective at that time.
27:07
So yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think what happened I totally
27:12
fascinated me. Both because of his poetry. He is later understanding of what
27:19
happened in the past through his psychedelic journeys. And you know, he never
27:26
sounded crazy to me, you know, in his interviews or until the end,
27:32
you know, he sounded fine, you know, but he felt felt
27:36
persecuted and harassed, and he certainly was followed, and he was I mean,
27:41
his paranoia was not unwarranted, but you know I was I'm still very
27:49
interested in having his work published and and people were reading him because he's a
27:56
poet and he and the other thing that happened is that the macroligion. They
28:00
invented. The Discordianism had an amazing career. While he was already he was
28:06
in the Marines. He didn't know anything about it. He didn't know that
28:08
there are many people who took it seriously, and at some point in the
28:12
seventies and the eighties it became a mainstay of the counterculture. After Robert Anton
28:18
Wilson wrote the Illuminatus trilogy, it was directly referred to the divine Discordian manifested
28:27
the Discordianism that carry invented, and then it became a very interesting way of
28:34
narrating the reality of the day with touches of humor, and there was a
28:38
satirical sense to it. Well later, I think that the people who make
28:45
up our reality now and tell stories about where we are are actually have lost
28:49
that sense of humor, which is what makes it very dangerous, because it
28:55
is, you know, it is pure paranoia, and it doesn't have that
29:00
the redeeming sense that it may not be that white. It could it could
29:04
be an invention. Yeah, I think with the the advent of the Internet
29:12
that could have benefited Thornley immensely and and and dispensing his work, and you
29:18
know, of course you compare it to like nowadays, you know, where
29:22
everybody look at us to you know, have a have a show or have
29:27
a platform, to be able to get our views and and our thoughts out
29:33
to the world. I could I could definitely see uh Carrie Thornley using this,
29:41
and like Joe brought up earlier, you know, I think he was
29:42
born a couple of decades too soon. And then nowadays, you know,
29:48
you have people like the other extreme, you know, when you're talking about
29:52
like Alex Jones, you know, the world is ending, everything's a conspiracy,
29:56
the lizard people, and you know, all all all this other stuff.
30:02
But it's it's almost turned into like a mainstream kind of thing now nowadays
30:07
with these conspiracy theories. Well yeah, I mean it's turned into mainstream without
30:12
a sense of you know, with sense of humor that they had been which
30:17
was really against I mean, it was a political and it was radical in
30:21
the sense that you shouldn't trust the government, and we didn't trust the government
30:26
in the Vietnam War and so on. Their two generations that didn't trust the
30:30
government. So we thought, you know, all kinds of I mean,
30:33
all kinds of things some of them were real, some of them were made
30:37
up. But you know, we lived in a stew of conspiracies for quite
30:41
some time. So you know, it's not surprising that the Internet this became,
30:48
you know, much wider way of narrating history, of talking about what's
30:53
going on. Yeah. Without the Internet, though, you know, you
30:57
probably would have never heard of carry them because I guess it's been an I've
31:04
been doing this show Andre for like ten years, and one of the first
31:07
guests I ever had on this show was Adam go Rightly and uh, you
31:12
know we talked about his book. Well, he wrote two of them.
31:18
Here's one Caught in the Crossfire, Carrie Thornley, Lee Oswald and The Garrison
31:23
Investigation. And I believe he read another one as well. I can't remember
31:29
that one, but you know he has you know, the Internet enables you
31:37
to talk to these people who have a very interesting take on things and to
31:44
get the information out to the people. I think it's it's been a really
31:49
fascinating journey to to read about Carrie Thornley, his discorionism, his counterculture beliefs,
31:57
and then you know, you get into the seventies and eighties and you
32:01
know, a question I couldn't really ever put my finger on, is whether
32:07
this guy wanted the spotlight. Did he want to be famous, did he
32:12
want to be known or was he happy where he was at kind of an
32:19
invisible rut if you will. Yeah, he wanted to be known for his
32:23
writing, you know, but then he got known for, you know,
32:25
something he didn't really want to be known for. He was drawn into this
32:31
this investigations, into this conspiracy net, you know, but despite efforts,
32:38
Yeah, I mean, you know, to this day, you can't find
32:42
the Idol Warriors. It's a novel you can't read, you know. I
32:45
found out about Kerry Turnley and Jesse Walker's book The United States of Paranoia,
32:50
which is a great book about you know, the paranoid state of mind that
32:54
hosted called it later and it is a book about how this paranoia about you
33:00
know, people and government has been here since the founding of the Republic in
33:05
different ways. You know, we're still talking about the Lunking assassination. It's
33:08
still talking about different you know, dark moments that we don't know who you
33:15
know, what the answer is. And so I was amazed to find that
33:21
he opened his book on the United States of paranoia with Discordianism and Carrie Thorny
33:27
because I've never heard of them, and that's why I started looking. Yeah,
33:32
it's a fascinating thing to kind of wrap your head around. When you
33:35
first hear about Carrie Thornley and Discordianism, it's just like, what is this
33:40
guy on? You know, like, but yeah, just beer, you
33:46
know, maybe a little weed back then, I mean yeah, way before
33:51
psychedelics, way before Joe. Yeah. One of the things one of I
34:00
think this was your quote of your narration. History may all come out of
34:07
fiction. I think, well, I don't know if it was his quote
34:09
or it was you quoting him, but I couldn't agree more. And we
34:16
all know histories written by the winners, and Rob and I have made it
34:21
a point to really try to follow the truth, and we you know,
34:28
we did a presentation to bring it back to E. Howard Hunt. We
34:31
did a presentation at Lancer this year for the sixtieth anniversary on the Martins.
34:37
We found over thirty first name jay or middle of name, last name Martin's,
34:43
and one of them was E. Howard Hunt, who distributed mister alias
34:50
Martin alias is to Sturgis Eugenio Martine or Surgis and other Watergate burglars during what
35:00
Gate and the break in, and it kind of all ties in all together.
35:05
And it's funny that we had he was part of our presentation even before
35:09
we had talked to you. So going down unique paths, we have been
35:15
trying to do the same in a very you know, research focused, non
35:20
conspiratorial way. And I think that's why I, at least I speak for
35:24
myself, I enjoyed your your series so much. Yeah, the epilog,
35:30
we're looking forward to the finale epilogue. Well, there are four episodes down
35:37
there, No they're think, yes they are. Yeah, but you mentioned
35:42
you might do another. Oh yeah, because this we we did it before.
35:45
They released a whole lot of documents. The SAA, the National Archives
35:52
released a number of documents and there are still three thousand documents they didn't release.
35:58
And you wonder why so much about you know, this young guy who
36:01
was you know was I mean he was twenty something when he was killed,
36:07
you know, so clearly they say who had observed him? So did the
36:14
KG BE. They were very interested in Oswald And you wonder why because he
36:19
just in people's descriptions and books it just comes out as a misguided young guy
36:24
who didn't was kind of not too bright, you know, But that's not
36:29
the case at all, because their interest proves that it's not the case.
36:34
And also what he did and how he planned it is pretty smart if he
36:39
did. All right, yes, the big if you know, And and
36:45
I think you did a good job in the podcast as well, Andre not
36:47
really letting on whether or not you specifically personally believe in a conspiracy or a
36:58
non conspiracy. You just kind of present and it, you know, what
37:01
you had found and the interviews and kind of left it up to the listener
37:06
to figure out what they believe. You know. Yeah, I was more
37:10
interested in what Joe just said about history, you know, because I was
37:15
interested in how history is told and how it is told officially and what is
37:21
not told. You will never know to any great extent what you weren't told,
37:29
not because it's classified, but because historians haven't tended it enough, you
37:35
know, to get to another to an alternate version of it, you know.
37:42
But essentially I'm against history because it's stories, it's storytelling, and so
37:46
if you you know, it's very hard to tell, you know, who's
37:52
telling a story. Where and if they do, it's probably a particular moment
37:57
or a particular instance of history, but it's not you know, it's hard
38:01
to tell them the entire story that's not officially sanctioned, you know. Yeah,
38:10
I mean, look no further than you know, people claiming to have
38:15
been behind the picket fans shooting, people claim to have been the Bushka Lady.
38:20
People claim to have been Lee Harvey Oswald's girlfriend. And they're all great
38:24
stories, but there's not a lot of substance behind them to support them.
38:31
And when it comes to carry Thornley again, it's a great story. I
38:37
mean, it's the stuff books are made of, you know, But is
38:42
there enough meat on the bone there conspiratorially to tie him in to the assassination?
38:47
And I know in his mind maybe he he does later just by him
38:55
believing you know, a certain a certain way, And it's all it's just
39:02
it's it's stories. But they're fascinating stories, and you know, it's up
39:08
to the people hearing the stories, whether or not, you know, to
39:12
put much credence to them or to kind of brush them aside and are not
39:19
paying much attention to them and understand them for what they are, and it's
39:22
a great story. And that's a lot part of what we do here on
39:27
the show as well, you know, is try to take these stories and
39:30
and and dive a little deeper into them to get to get a better understanding
39:37
one way or the other. You know, right, well, you guys
39:40
are doing a good job, then, you know, I mean, there
39:43
should be a lot more attention to our you know, past, because that's
39:49
particular event. You know, the assassination of JFK changed this country as a
39:53
totally pivotal moment, you know, I mean everything since you know, he
40:00
Kerry says at some points that uh, well actually no, how Howard Hunt,
40:07
on his deathbed says that he was involved in the JFK assassination and they
40:14
wanted to make Nixon president, and that indeed happened, and from then on
40:19
we have a different history of this country because we've gone a completely different way
40:22
than where JFK was trying to take us. Yeah, I agree. If
40:29
it weren't for the Kennedy assassination, this country would have been in a totally
40:32
different direction. We'd have a totally different you know, set of presidents probably
40:38
following him, and but who knows, you know, like people explored this
40:44
option as well, what if Kennedy lived, how would things be different?
40:50
You know, And it's there's no really telling whether or not things would have
40:53
been better. You would like to believe that they would have been better,
40:58
but we don't know for sure. And that's part of the thing. You
41:00
can't change history. You can only move forward. And and like you mentioned
41:06
before, you know, in that time when when trust in the government really
41:10
started falling, you know, with the with the Kennedy assassination, his brother
41:15
Martin Luther King. Then you get into Watergate and the Church Committee, which
41:21
leads into the House Select Committee on Assassinations re looking into this case. Was
41:30
was thornly contacted? And for the House Select Committee on Assassinations? Did they
41:35
do any investigating on him? I think no. I think by that time
41:40
he was not of interested, probably couldn't find I mean, he didn't.
41:46
He was living in a bunch of commons in northern California, and you know,
41:53
yeah, he sort of disappeared in the culture he created or he helped
41:58
create, had in a sense well you know, yeah, I mean it's
42:05
you know, it's sad in some ways. I mean, Norman Mahler wrote
42:09
the whole book about you know, Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, and
42:15
and who he was and Lee who died very young and has no story really,
42:21
I mean, he has a story, but it's a story that was
42:22
largely put coupled together by different commissions. And later he's very you know,
42:30
he's he's he did enter history and he's very famous. Were Kerrie, who
42:36
was really a talented writer and an inventor of reality that we now forget is
42:43
you know, it's just a discovery for a few of us on the outside
42:46
to to talk about that, hopefully. I mean, you know, who
42:51
knows. We're waiting for the feature film exactly exactly, So you got anything
42:59
else? Yeah, I just wanted to say how I love the how you
43:04
ended the podcast. You said, you know, or I think maybe one
43:08
of the ladies said, I forgot her name. You cannot solve the mystery,
43:13
so you have to be content with living that this is an unsolved mystery,
43:19
all right? She said that. I was actually thinking of a Romanian
43:22
poet, Lucian Blaga, who said, our job is, when faced with
43:29
the mystery, is not to solve it, but to deepen the mystery.
43:32
And in this case, you're certainly deepening the mystery. Absolutely, Andre,
43:39
We've just scratched the surface here today with your podcast. Where can folks listen
43:45
to it? Oh, it's on Audible and Spotify, all these platforms.
43:51
All they have to do is type in the second azzwold in my name,
43:53
which is cod R SCU. I tell people to pronounce it like code secret,
44:00
code and rescue at sea, you know, as a code rescue you
44:04
know. Yeah, it's called the second as well. It's on a whole
44:08
lot of platforms. All you have to do is google it excellent and for
44:13
everything Andre could rescue, had to could rescue dot com. That's simply his
44:20
last name in dot com right right. They can find out more about you
44:24
and check out everything you've done and everything you're into and what's next for andres
44:32
Well. I just wrote a book with a friend, you know, during
44:37
the pandemic, and we've been performing and reading it. It's called The Possible
44:44
Epic of Care, and it's about you know, it's based on our mothers,
44:47
who are both in their nineties and mine passed away during the pandemic and
44:52
he's still with us, and it was really about how to care. I
44:57
mean, it's not the biography of our mother. But it's a poem about
45:01
you know, how to survive, you know, the quarantine and to care
45:07
for other people. Excellent sounds fascinating. Well, Andre, we really appreciate
45:13
you joining us today, and don't go anywhere. Andre, We're gonna wrap
45:16
the show up here. Joe, you want to close this out here,
45:21
buddy, Yeah, I just wanted to say that if you have any more
45:24
plays you do in the New York City area, let us know. I
45:29
will happily come by. I think that would be great to watch. And
45:35
we're not for far away and uh, I think they could find you at
45:39
Rada Palx on YouTube as well r A T t A p a l l
45:45
a X to view all four of the second Oswald episodes. And we can't
45:52
thank you enough for taking the time on this Sunday morning to speak with us.
46:00
And we hope you enjoyed our conversation as much as we did. My
46:04
pleasure, I certainly did. You guys are great, keep having it awesome.
46:08
Thank you so much. Andre. This has been episode number two hundred
46:13
and sixty five of the Loncoming Podcast with Andre could resk you until next time,
46:19
folks, Thank you for joining us