Latest / Mythmakers / A Most Unquenchable Hobbit! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 11

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A Most Unquenchable Hobbit! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 11 · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and I
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  have been running a series over the last few months. Well, actually it's over here now,
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  I think, where we have been slowly reading our way through Lord of the Rings and we have
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  reached chapter 11 in book three that's basically halfway through the two towers and that chapter
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  is called the plant here and we'll be taking a look at it primarily with the view to see what
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  Tolkien is doing as an author. Okay, so first of all cards on the table, this particular chapter I
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  find really hard to read and that is because it is the chapter where Pippin goes and looks in the
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  Palantin, the seeing stone and I find that a sort of really difficult thing to read or watch is
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  that cringe factor that oh don't do it, don't do it thing and that is actually a sign of powerful
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  writing. If you have your audience sort of flinching it means that you're really getting at them
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  so it's both good and painful. Your plot has to feel as though it's going to fail as in it's not
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  definitely going to be a happily ever after and this is one of those chapters where we have a knife
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  edge moment which is very well written. It's also a chapter which demonstrates the tinkering
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  that Tolkien did. Now he is a famous tinkerer, I mean the Silmarillion was never finished in his
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  lifetime because he was always changing things, doing a little bit more here and there and this
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  chapter shows him tinkering away partly because as we covered in the previous episode on this
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  that the idea of the Palantir came to him as he was writing it wasn't something he'd
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  thought through before so it wasn't completely woven in how he wanted it to be. So he went back
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  in later editions and slightly changed wording to represent the new status that Palantir had.
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  I'm not going to go into the detail of what he did but if you have a first edition and you compare
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  it to later editions you'll see there are slightly different things that Gandalf says and so on.
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  This is because he didn't quite, I mean it's pretty well, pretty well woven in but he felt as though
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  he needed to digest that idea a bit more and it's also interesting because the Palantir themselves
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  he wrote about in the unfinished tales so you can get some extra information about what he thought
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  about them later on by looking at the unfinished tales so I would recommend if you've got a copy
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  of the unfinished tales it's only a short bit go and have a read of that section. Okay so what is
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  the structure of this particular chapter? It's a series of conversations really and I would say it has
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  the theme of unquenchable hobbits and curiosity that is the thread that
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  everything is strong on and so we've got a Mary and Gandalf conversation then a Mary and Pippin
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  and then in the centre there's this Mary and then there's a Pippin and Sauron conversation
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  then there's Gandalf and Pippin and Gandalf and Aragon and then finally when they're on shadow
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  facts there's a Gandalf and Pippin long conversation which is different from all the others because
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  it gives a bit more about lore and the history of Middle Earth and so on but it's very much
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  lots of information is conveyed in this particular chapter and of course it falls at the end of book
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  three so for the organizing principle of Lord the Rings it falls halfway because well you know
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  it's roughly halfway through the story. So we actually start though we're still in Eisen
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  Garda about to leave and we get a last glimpse in this book of Tree Bird and the Ends and it's
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  interesting here that one of the things Tolkien does is Mary and Pippin who are our points of
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  you at this point they are circling back in their own minds to the first time they meet Tree Bird
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  that's quite an elegant way of summing up this episode with the Ends seeing him being like an
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  old tree stump he's moved from the forest to being on the doorstep of Orthank and we also get the
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  Ends lined up either side now I do know I've never noticed this detail before I think I've always
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  read past it a little bit too quickly but this time I obviously because I'm doing it for this
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  podcast I was thinking well what does that look like and it made me think that actually they're
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  like an on a guard escorting out Therodon and Gandalf and Aragon but it also is an avenue of trees
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  they could be both at the same time so it's a rather beautiful picture which I'm pleased I
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  lingered over this time and it's also a sense that the gardens that used to surround Orthank
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  going to be recreated later on I believe towards the end Tree Bird calls it the Tree Garth of Orthank
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  which is a lovely way of saying it's going to be full of trees and why not an avenue of trees
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  and as they leave the riders get as far as the white hand which they have met on their way in
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  which has now been destroyed and Gandalf sort of sums up this whole episode by saying the end's
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  pay attention to every detail they've come out this far and destroyed the last symbol of Saramun's
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  power so the next section is Mary and Gandalf riding together and having a conversation and it's
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  mainly the purpose of this conversation is a little bit picking up from the previous chapter about
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  what Saramun's state of mind might be but it is also introducing this theme of the unquenchable
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  Hobbit so Gandalf tells Mary who makes this comment that he's a Ragtag
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  sort of riding alongside Rugandalf which is picking up you'll hear the echo from the previous
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  chapters bringing it forward into here and Gandalf says a sneer from him Saramun
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  Mary Adok is a compliment and Mary isn't letting this subject rest and he carries on asking questions
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  I mean Gandalf who think about it from Gandalf's point of view is just had this big showdown with
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  former head of his order and he's broken his staff and he probably wants just a you know have a quiet
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  thing and Mary is full of questions and so in response we get this very Gandalfian phrase a most
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  unquenchable Hobbit all wizards should have a Hobbit or two in their care to teach them the meaning
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  of the word and to correct them now that last bit and to correct them is slightly ambiguous but I
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  think because the them isn't clear but is I don't think it's to correct the Hobbits that he does do
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  that quite a lot I think it's more that the Hobbits correct the wizards when they're being too
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  wizardly and a bit too big for their boots so it's a character note here on Gandalf that even when
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  he's tired and come out of a major confrontation he has a sense of humour and he's also doesn't
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  consider himself infallible so we move from this heightened confrontation to humour Gandalf laughs
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  of course warmth and relief but also Mary gives the writer here gives Tolkien as the author
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  his the curiosity of the Hobbit gives him the chance to regain momentum sort of exiting out
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  of this particular episode if you think of someone doing a flawed gymnastics display they do
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  their amazing flips and they land it but then they have to move into the next section then we're
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  into that next section here and it also gives the as well as a regaining momentum it also gives
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  Tolkien the chance to explain the stakes it's in a big complicated book like this you may know
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  Lord of the Rings so well you already understand what the stakes are but if you go back to thinking
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  what it was like when you first read it it is a complicated story with a number of different
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  battle fronts with a number of different enemies and so on and Gandalf explains it to Mary Mary's
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  basically us stands for the reader in this particular set of questions and Gandalf says yes we have one
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  but only the first victory i don't put the book down now we've got lots more to do
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  and that in itself increases our danger so remember always keep the tension keep raising the tension
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  you've got to keep on raising the stakes raising the tension so you may have a little bit of laughter
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  and relief but the longer perspective is it's not over otherwise you're you know you'll lose your
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  audience won't you okay so Mary is standing in for us he's giving the author a chance to reiterate
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  what's exactly at stake want to draw your attention now to one of those lovely little hidden bits
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  of Tolkien you know how much i like these if we've been listening to this and that is their campsite
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  where this uh this incident with the planet it takes place never really noticed
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  the how specific the details are in the film if you're coming at this from Peter Jackson
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  version this happens in ederas in a building it's probably easier to film but actually isn't it nice to be
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  out in the world on this journey and there's a lovely detail here they lit a fire in a hollow
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  down among the roots of a spreading hawthorn tall as a tree rhythm with age but hail in every limb
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  buds were swelling at each tweak's tip buds were swelling at each tweak's tip quite hard to say
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  and but also very specific it's a way of telling us where we are in the season hawthorns
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  for anyone who's not in the sort of UK countryside are a very common hedging shrub
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  uh and they have spikes on but they are one of the first shrubs that come into leaf as spring
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  arrives um so the hawthorn has leaves first then flowers the black thorn has flowers first then leaves
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  i bet Tolkien knew the difference and here we've got the buds coming of the future leaves
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  anyway i like how specific this is i can walk around the countryside where i live spot the
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  hawthorns and think yeah that's the kind of hawthorn they were under and then we move into the
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  merry and pipin conversation so it's like the second movement really in this particular chapter
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  and note how Tolkien starts to wind up the more immediate danger here we've laid the bigger
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  stakes but there's a new danger which none of them expect is about to happen though if you've
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  reading carefully you would have picked up some of those warning notes when pipin ran to pick up
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  the palantir in that section in the previous chapter and we get it in and get it sort of starting here
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  where the sour note comes in it would be like a jarring note in a musical theme when you're reading
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  this carefully you can see how it's what's going to happen and this is where the cringe factor comes
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  because you're given plenty of time to anticipate what he's going to do and it begins with the
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  prosaic off note of are you lying on an ant hill pipin is restless and this section is given mainly
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  from Mary's point of view we're still with Mary because pipin is being secretive never a good sign
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  and he's also speaking as close as he ever gets to golem he says i picked it up i saved it
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  me me me another very bad sign Mary who doesn't realise just how serious this is he tries to
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  turn pipin away from those thoughts by mentioning guild doors saying and he also just mentioned
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  Sam here don't forget that this story is really about Frodo and Sam he says Sam used to repeat
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  the saying do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger
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  we do see a bit of temper from Gandalf though we see more mercy than temper but still he's saying
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  watch out this really isn't for a hobbit to meddle in another sign of danger is that pipin is
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  being i would say a little bit mocking he talks about Gandalf being like a hen with an egg it's not
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  that funny it's sort of funny but also it's not that funny and this doesn't feel like the normal
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  pipin he's being he's not being straightforward he hasn't gone up to Gandalf and said think about
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  the other options can i have another look at that please that would be what a normal pipin would do
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  i really want to know what that's about can you show me but no he is hiding and basically he is
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  sneaking remember that word that comes up later doesn't it anyway so Mary goes to speak without
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  being aware and then we switch the point of view to pipin and this is brilliantly painful this is
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  why i find it really hard to read we get this intriguing image of the sleeping Gandalf which was
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  actually done in the film very well by Ian McKellen you get the glitter of eyes under his long lashes
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  he sneaks of his eyes slightly open and pipin does this sneaky thing or switching a stone for
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  the palantir so that Gandalf isn't aware that it's gone and then he does this
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  put yourself justification he sort of begins to have cold feet and then he says oh well i can't
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  put it back now i might as well have a look first so he's slipping further and further into this
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  sneaky behavior and then the point of view shifts so we do have this is a third person
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  narration and in third person narration you can sort of skim in and out of various things it's
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  very hard to do well by the way not the easiest dance to take it if you're writing your first novel
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  because the rules are a bit loose but here we move from it being sort of pipin talking
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  to look at him from the outside and i was thinking what point of view do we have in a way
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  it's almost as though the moon is the point of view because one of the last images we get is the
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  moon looking over at pipin and he's shown by moonlight but it's probably more the narrator it's
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  kind of we are like the moon looking down with the narrator on pipin he bent low over it
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  it being the palantir looking like a greedy child stooping over a bowl of food in a corner
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  away from others pipin is boyish he's one of the youngest in the company if not the youngest
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  but this isn't a good image of childhood it is greed that sort of classic greed and the thing
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  that you've gone away you've hidden your secret stash all of these things are massive red
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  warning lights we're outside his experience so we're watching him do this we don't know what he did
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  when he looked into the stone we only see his reactions and this is that technique you hold back
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  the information and we don't find out until he confesses so we keep the tension going has he
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  basically said watch out sarron you've got a ring bearer coming towards you has he said that
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  that is all the possibilities which is courses rushing through Gandalf's mind when pipins
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  sort of cry alerts everybody and Gandalf says the devilry what mischief has he done to himself
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  and to all of us which if you hadn't realised as a reader at this point that there was anything
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  terribly wrong with what he was doing though i think you would this is the moment when you see
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  actually this quest hangs on the edge of a knife it might fall it might fail then we get the
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  interrogation scene which is horrific because if we love pipin as we do by now he is ventriloquising
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  as if possessed by sarron he says it is not for you saraman he's speaking in the voice of sarron
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  in fact pipin in a sense is the closest any of the companions have got to sarron so far
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  being clearly Frodo sees him through the ring and the whisperings of the ring and Arrigal more
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  later looking the same stone but pipin is the first to actually report back i should we say
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  what is going on in baradur so it is a big big scene and notice that sarron says it to him a hobbit
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  is it not not a person just a thing and that is of course his attitude to middle earth
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  and then pipin steps back into himself and it's we know he's back in himself because he says Gandalf
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  forgive me the plea for forgiveness is the the pipin voice so we don't know remember we've kept this
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  tension going Tolkien's holding back the answers and then Gandalf persuades pipin to confess
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  and pipin up burdens what he himself of his experience explains what he saw and then it sort
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  of comes to this combination of then he came he isn't named the talusized bit like you know
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  Voldemort in Harry Potter it's a he who will not be named he doesn't say sarron but he came
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  and it took me a while I was thinking well is this some other is this like the chief Nazgul but no
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  it's happening in baradur of course technically sarron is disembodied but of course he could
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  project himself in a shape or a form in a planet here couldn't he so I think it all lines up
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  but we he's obviously got a voice and he's got a look maybe it's the eye so I think we we have a
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  sense that the presence of sarron is what pipin is exposed to but sarron is not all knowing he's too
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  greedy so he is like the boy crouched over the bowl of food he wants to get pipin for himself
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  so he equally sarron and sarron both are too greedy and that is a fatal flaw because he doesn't stop
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  and interrogate pickin properly he just says this dainty is for me not for you sarron man
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  Gandalf is able to see into pipin's heart and he says he's a fool but an honest fool he remains
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  you remain and he says I forgive you and he also pretty much immediately says my dear hobbit
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  he's warmer towards pipin after this than he has been for a while so that shows the mercy that is
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  the response of Gandalf to these situations where people fail or fail him and then we get a
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  reference to the first conversation Gandalf had with Mary he says to arrogant who's worried about
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  pipin as well hobbits have an amazing power of recovery they are unquenchable and we get a small
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  scene here which is the shift in arrogant's position so if we think about the big character arc
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  of arrogant he has been moving closer and closer to Gandalf he has declared himself when he arrived
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  in Rohan he has presented his sword the sword has been in battle so he's getting step by step
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  closer I know the sword was already then it does not arrive later as in the film version of this
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  he takes a step towards the return of the king which is obviously good because we're at the end
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  of this book and the next time he arrives he's going to be at the beginning of return of the king
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  which is you know his big moment when Gandalf asked him to come after the Palantir he says it is his
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  by right he's stepping up to become the king of gondor and Arnold and Gandalf recognizes this moment
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  he bowed and presented it it's a full more moment I mean have a gear shift don't we in their
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  relationship they've already been sort of companions on the road but now it's more like King's
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  counselor and King which is how it will be in the war council's going forward and you see the
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  balance in the relationship that Gandalf feels able to counsel and arrogant feels able to
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  accept part or some of the council so when Gandalf says you don't take care with this don't
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  rush to use it arrogant says when I have when have I been hasty or unwary who have waited and prepared
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  for so many long years so he does his beginning to say well you know if I'm King I need to be able
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  to make these decisions on my own listening to my counsellors and you can see this changing at this
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  moment it sort of slips by but I think it is an important moment the other thing here is that Gandalf
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  is blaming himself pippin's cause this ruckus but he he admits to arrogant he feels he should have
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  known what was going on and arrogant says I'm quite interesting here I think this is Tolkien
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  talking to himself like answering his own plot point at last we know the link between Eisengar and
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  Mordor and how it worked it may have been narratively speaking a question Tolkien had in his back of
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  his mind remember he didn't know the palantir existed until wormtongue threw it out and then he
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  thought aha palantir and so he thought yeah that will solve this plot problem so when you're writing
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  look out for those moments where you can use a detail to tie your plot together more elegantly
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  and Gandalf goes on to say it was strangely fortunate he was saved by the hobbit
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  perhaps from looking in himself and arrogant sort of say well don't you think it's time you
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  you know came out of the shadows and Gandalf is sort of explaining the strategy we have to
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  use this short while of doubt we have been too leisurely we must move we've got to get ahead
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  we've got to get in front of the enemy now we may capitalize on this victory this does feel like
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  the sort of debates that were going around on in Mordor 2 this is being written in the darkest days
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  of the world war and so he would be thinking of the sort of discussions that were going on in
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  the papers about how to get ahead of the Nazis so in a way it feels very real is this the right
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  thing to do should we show our hand now should we put our forces there it has that feeling of
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  reality and the best fantasy does feel real doesn't it and I feel this is one of those little
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  discussions where it's not obvious what they should do but he knows that speed is needed
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  and the arrival of the Nazquil confirms that and overflight of a Nazquil heading to
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  Eisengaard and Gandalf said something here which is quite abrupt and it feels a bit like my
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  impact in panic but anyway let not the swift weight for the slow ride so off he goes grabbing
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  Pippin without any of Pippin stuff Gandalf just picks up his own little pack and off they go
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  and ride away and it's a little tiny little scene here where poor old Mary is grumbling
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  after the drama being left behind and arrogant says you know this corrective you might have
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  done worse so you point the finger at Pippin but you might have done worse I don't know I mean
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  Mary in some ways has a bit more common sense isn't he but fair enough we take the point
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  Eragon who knows what we would have done facing the Palantir so the last part of this chapter
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  changes gear completely because we get a moment of peace when you've got a character like Gandalf
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  who feels like a safe haven if you're with Gandalf mostly a particular sitting in front
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  of him in the horse it's hard to imagine something bad is going to happen it's like almost like
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  you know in the arms of a parent or something for a child it's got that feeling of safety
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  and there's time here for Pippin to be the unquenchable hobbit and ask the questions which are again
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  the kind of questions we as readers have so if you've got questions don't just sort of
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  information dump make sure they're part of a question and answer session which is driven by the plot
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  it feels necessary to to have this out here and here and now
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  though we do get a bit more because of course Tolkien is his fond of his law
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  it also is a place for Tolkien to get rid of some of the things that have been bugging him
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  we know that he had this rhyme going around in his head which he didn't know what it meant
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  and here he gets a chance to give an explanation tall ships and tall kings that little
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  six-line poem and as ever in Tolkien it links back to the foundational story for middle earth
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  or the men of middle earth which is the fall of Numenor. Hobbit curiosity drives this chapter
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  and we get lots of things said here which perhaps Pippin himself might not know much about
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  there and a bit like a reader reading this for the first time some of these names we know nothing
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  about the Null door made them that's the the High Elves so that explains why
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  these Polanteu able to crack the steps because they are made by the elves who were the masters you know
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  the the mastersmiths from the depths of time but even there Gandalf says but there is nothing
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  that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses which is one of the themes isn't it of Lord the Rings
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  and it gives Gandalf a chance to review the fall of Sauraman he talks about how it was the
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  the fatal step and remember again it's this image of someone keeping something for themselves
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  that greedy child that was Sauraman too he kept it from the White Council and it was the step
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  which brought him to fall under the throald of Sauron but Gandalf though he is obviously merciful
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  where he can be he also doesn't hold back he says yet he must bear the blame you know he can't
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  claim to be the victim here he had a choice he took the wrong choice which I think is interesting
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  and Gandalf is a sort of tough love person goes on to describe the functioning of the stones
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  and how in Sauraman's case the bite is bit the hawk under the EU's foot the spider in the still web
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  so Sauraman is trapped and we also get here which I love is a glimpse of Gandalf's mind
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  because it gives him a chance to say what he would most like to see it reminds me a bit of the
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  mirror of Erisage in Harry Potter where if you look in it you see what you most want to see a
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  palantir what you could see with it what it could reveal is like that too and it also of course
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  reminds of in this world this fictional world of Galadriel's mirror as well but anyway Gandalf says
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  what does he want to see he wants to look back the land where he used to live over in the Undying
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  West and he wants to see the unimaginable hand and mind of Fiannaur now Fiannaur is the Smith
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  who made the Silmarils who actually is a bit I think he's a bit evil but there's a Blakeian
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  power to him isn't there like a William Blake the poet in his famous poem Tiger Tiger
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  Burning Bright in the forest tonight of the night what immortal hand or I'd frame life
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  fearful symmetry it's got that kind of power there's even some word similarity in that so it's
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  sort of a Blakeian image of Fiannaur who ruined things really for the elves but anyway that's
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  the Silmarillion and going back to the tough love Gandalf Pippin sort of begins to excuse himself
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  oh I had no idea what I was doing and Gandalf says yes you had this we need to take responsibility
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  for the things we do wrong as adults as grown-ups there isn't a free pass but there is mercy
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  even so though you can see that Pippin is unquenchable and he is also fundamentally at ease
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  and trusting Gandalf because there's a lovely joke here where Gandalf say you know surely it's
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  enough questions for tonight and Gandalf says what more do you want to know and Pippin says
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  the names of all the stars and of all living things and the whole history of middle earth and
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  over heaven and of the sundering seas laughed Pippin of course what less but I am not in a hurry
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  tonight so you know he wants to know that but not now Gandalf so they have an ease which is a
• 32:59
  lovely note to striking this relationship which has been put through this test and Gandalf
• 33:06
  goes on to explain how Saruman is really in a cleft stick he will appear a rebel to Saruman
• 33:12
  because Saruman will assume Pippin or the Hobbit is in the tower and Saruman is refusing to come
• 33:21
  and talk to him he can't imagine that the plant has been thrown out of windows bit like he can't
• 33:26
  imagine the rings will be cast into a fire it's the same thought here but it's just in an earlier
• 33:31
  form of it remember what I said at the beginning about tinkering there's one little note here which
• 33:37
  is picked up in the Lord of the Rings a reader's companion which is in the lineup Saruman went and
• 33:46
  talked to Thedden he mentioned Gimli he talked to Gandalf he didn't talk to Aragorn and I think
• 33:54
  talking worried that he needed a reason why Saruman doesn't try and win over the future king of Gondor
• 34:02
  and so he gives this detail here which is a tinkering detail to make the plot work that Aragorn
• 34:09
  was standing in the armor of Rohan so maybe Wormtong didn't have a chance to tell him that Aragorn
• 34:17
  was there and might tell him later but there it makes sense that Saruman was unaware Aragorn was
• 34:26
  actually part of the party standing in front of him even if Wormtong had mentioned that this
• 34:33
  person had turned up at Edirass earlier so that nice tinkering moment talking's fixing his plot
• 34:42
  so just to wrap up we're coming to the end of book three now the note that Gandalf strikes here
• 34:49
  is the one which keeps the tension going he says to pip in every stride on chalifax bears you
• 34:55
  nearer to the land of shadow the momentum is going we're still getting nearer our goal
• 35:00
  but we're doing it going backwards over the past we've already gone past there's a quick nod to
• 35:06
  the caves that Gimli and Legolas have promised to visit you know that kind of thing in the unfinished
• 35:14
  tails in the bit about the plant here I mentioned Gal it Tolkien explains that Gandalf is actually
• 35:20
  worrying about Denathor here it's not I look carefully as I was reading it he does mention Denathor's name
• 35:27
  but it's not something he tells pipin so we don't know as the reader that he's worrying about Denathor
• 35:32
  he's worrying about what happened to these stones so it's sort of hidden message underneath
• 35:38
  what's going on here but Tolkien is sort of it and that's going to be really the plot
• 35:44
  lead that will be the pipin Gandalf Denathor section that when we get to return of the king
• 35:53
  I just want to end on the last paragraph which I always find a sort of beautiful way of
• 35:58
  stilling the motion like finding the place to call cut in this book which is this
• 36:06
  wonderful moment that's pipin falls asleep as he fell slowly into sleep pipin had a strange feeling
• 36:13
  he and Gandalf were still as stone seated upon the statue of a running horse while the world
• 36:19
  rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind so it's that moment of stillness but actually
• 36:28
  still moving which completely sort of ends this book in as a minor key and we're ready to pick up
• 36:38
  in book four with Frodo and Sam so that will be the next episode thank you very much for listening
• 36:51
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• 36:57
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