Latest / Authentic Living / Michel Arsenault on the intersection of gender diversity, workplace policies and authenticity

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Michel Arsenault on the intersection of gender diversity, workplace policies and authenticity · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:38
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:38
  It's Roxanne Durhaj with Authentic Living with Roxanne.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  Today, I have a colleague.
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  Michelle and I have the privilege of working together for quite a lot of years over 10 at
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  Behavioral Health from based out of Toronto.
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  So and Michelle and I, both have clinical backgrounds, but, Michelle has got a special
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  expertise that I'd like him to share with you today.
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  So, Michelle, thanks for coming in and chatting with us today.
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  Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me.
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  I love doing these, and it's just such a great the time to reconnect.
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  It's been a while that since we got the chance to work together with women.
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  So looking forward to this.
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  So tell everyone a bit about your background.
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  I know a bit about it, but I'd them to know your path and what you've done in corporate and
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  kind of where you landed now.
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  We're we're gonna talk a little bit about gender identity and kind of corporate
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  significance today.
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  But share with the listeners and the viewers kind of what got you started in the field.
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  Sure.
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  Well, you know, I I studied the social work.
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  And for me, it was something I've always wanted to get back to and really to help people, with
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  whatever issues that they were dealing with.
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  When I did my bachelor's degree, I was doing a lot of family counselling and couple
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  counselling, and I really enjoyed that quite a bit.
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  And then join the AIDS epidemic.
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  It was during the early eighties.
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  And then by mid eighties, I decided to go do my master's degree, and I really focused on
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  helping game in.
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  Deal with HIV and AIDS and live with HIV and AIDS.
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  Of course, back then, it was a it was a death sentence.
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  And throughout that, I worked at a hospital in Halifax for for a couple of years where I was
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  the HIV and A social worker in the infectious disease clinic.
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  And that really got me interested in really helping support men who were, you know, just
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  gay men who were really struggling with illnesses, the injustice that were happening at
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  the time, and really helped create sort of a an environment where they could come and be safe
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  and be themselves with me.
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  And then when I moved to Toronto, I got involved with a behavioral health company, like
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  an EAP company.
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  And it was really interesting how I got involved with the supporting transgender in the
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  workplace.
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  There was an employee who was transitioning.
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  This was, like, over 20 years ago to her her true gender in the workplace, and was working
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  with a psychologist, and at that time, the psychologist the only thing I can remember,
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  because it'd been a long time ago, the only thing I remember is that she couldn't do the
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  training for the workplace anymore because she was moving away to another country.
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  And so they contacted their EAP, and they got in touch with me and said, would you be
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  interested?
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  Although I had limited knowledge, I was very interested in had always been interested in and
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  gender diversity and living your true selves.
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  And so I got to meet with her and the person was transitioning and really learned a lot from
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  that particular person as well as the psychologists.
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  And so you know, I was doing maybe 1 or 2 a year.
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  Like, somebody would come forward and say we have an employee who's transitioning.
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  We don't know what to do.
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  And that was always the thing.
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  Like, people organizations had no clue.
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  They had no, no idea how to support that person.
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  You know, for all intents purposes, there was a lot of willingness to be able to wanting to
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  support that person, but what they didn't know what to do is to how to best go about doing it.
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  So as I started to do more and more of these, which was very interesting.
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  And most people think, like, oh my god, is it is it becoming a fad?
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  It wasn't becoming a fad.
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  It's not becoming a fad.
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  Trans people have always been there.
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  There is just more and more room now in a safe space in society to say, you know, you can
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  leave your 2 genders of support.
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  There was more understanding.
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  There was more research or more professional.
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  And so that created sort of a an opportunity for people to say, you know, I want to live my
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  true self at work as well as in my personal life.
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  And so that's how I got involved and really developed a best in class approach, then it
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  gets involved with the center of attention being the person who's transitioning.
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  As much as I have my you know, my here's what's the best way to do ABCs.
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  It's always with the consultation of the person who's transitioning and saying, Hey, Tyler, you
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  wanna do this.
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  And here's my experience.
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  And And most of them say, you know, they're very, very grateful because they really didn't
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  know how to come forward in the workplace.
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  Typically, they go to their they go to their HR person.
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  When they say, you know, I'm a trans woman.
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  I'm a trans man, or I'm transnon binary, and I want to transition to my new my true gender in
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  the world plays.
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  Oftentimes, that's when they turn to their behavioral health, and that's where I came into
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  play and really helped them support them to provide that best way to support a person who's
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  transitioning in the workplace.
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  So let's talk about some of the basics, Michelle, because I've had some brushes with
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  this with my kind of consulting over the years, but when an employee comes forward back then to
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  when you started to now
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  Yeah.
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  What what happens generally out there in the corporate world now?
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  What might be the approach that people have?
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  Do they have certain protocols in place, or is it that people are still kind of grasping to
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  make some decisions based on someone coming forward?
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  Yes.
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  Seriously.
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  I think a lot of unrest here grow grasping.
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  I don't think they say, what are the chances of we having a trans person in the workplace?
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  And oftentimes, like, hey.
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  When it comes to us, like, we had never known.
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  We're prepared.
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  We've never dealt with this before.
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  How do we help a person?
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  Some people have ARGs in their workplace where they have, like, you know, may they might have
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  an lgbtq committee within the workplace, and sometimes, like, they can help them with that,
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  which is always a good thing.
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  But how do they support that employee?
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  There's a lot of people that they don't really don't know what to do.
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  I missed to my surprise, and this probably started, I wanna say about 5 or 6 years ago,
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  but a handful, Rotman, but a handful Now I don't know what, like, other people who might
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  be doing this and maybe our other organization are are going to other places, and that must
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  maybe be true as well.
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  But I've had a but a handful of people come forward and say, we don't have an entrenched
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  gender employee that we know of, but we wanna be get ready too.
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  We wanna know what the best way to manage or support that person, as well as to educate our
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  organization.
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  So again, I've go in and I do they didn't have an employee, here's what you do if you do have
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  an employee.
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  Here's what here's here are the best ways, the best steps to take in order to support that
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  person who's transitioning to their true gender in the workplace And really help them identify.
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  There's still a lot of misconceptions.
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  It's amazing how much misconception they're There truly is still today despite the
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  education that is out there, you know, exposure, but there's still a lot of
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  misconception, sadly.
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  So tell me some of the main misconceptions that you come across in your consulting and what are
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  some of the themes that you see that are normative and what are some of the ones that
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  seen and you're like, oh, jeez.
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  I can't believe.
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  But this is, yeah, still here.
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  This is actually existing still.
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  Yeah.
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  I would say that probably one of the biggest miss conception that I see all the time is
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  people truly confuse gender identity and sexual orientation.
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  They think if you're a biologically born male and you wanna become a female, well, you're
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  probably gay.
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  And that's the furthest from the truth.
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  Now that being said, there are gay people who are can be diagnosed and or and be trans as
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  well.
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  Where but the vast majority of people, it has nothing to do with your sexual orientation.
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  I would say that some people, when they're comfortable who they are sexually attracted to,
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  but it's the gender identities.
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  How you see yourself and your gender is either male or female or gender non binary.
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  So I would think that when people still, there's still a misconception.
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  People still have a hard time understanding, but it is truly 2 separate things, gender
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  identity, and your sexual orientation, They're not connected because people think it's
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  connected because we were taught.
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  We were, you know, throughout society and through media and through whatever.
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  But if you're a male you have a penis and you should be attracted to women and you should,
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  masculine and, you should have children So there's these categories that people fit in.
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  But and people think also that gender is binary.
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  There's a male and there's a female and there's nothing in between.
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  There's a lot in bet there's more to male and female gender.
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  There are people who are born biologically one gender.
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  But they truly see themselves in the other gender.
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  They there there's a sense of longing, there's sense of needing to be in that true gender.
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  But it was just sort of a birth anomaly.
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  Something happened that really they needed to be.
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  They needed to the that they were giving the wrong body, like, the is saying around the
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  person who was born in the wrong body, it's it truly is true.
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  It's almost like that's what it is.
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  The other misconception I think that there is is that people think it's a choice, you know,
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  or to fat or something.
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  And I think that's that's a big misconception as well.
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  It truly is not a choice.
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  It truly is not something that that has, all of a sudden, popped up.
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  Typically, heads popped up.
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  They have finally decided to deal with it.
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  They may have suppressed it all of those years.
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  And I remember when I was doing these trainings at the very beginning, like, 10, 15, 20 years
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  ago, they were truly older in their probably 40 fifties and even 60s, I remember, people were
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  finally coming to terms with who they truly are.
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  What I'm seeing now is that the they're younger.
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  And it's because there's more understanding.
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  There's more help out there for people to go seek the help.
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  And people are afraid to make mistakes.
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  I mean, I think that's a bigger one.
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  That's a big one too.
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  People are afraid to to be very, they're gonna make a mistake with the gender.
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  Gonna make a mistake.
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  But with the name, because sometimes, obviously, they change names.
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  Sometimes they'll keep the name depending on the person.
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  I would say that those are the biggest misconception.
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  The other one is I think people think that they'll automatically have the gender,
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  reassignment surgery, and that not totally true.
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  It's some there's some people who choose not to, for whatever reason, there might be varying
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  reasons.
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  In my experience with the people that I've worked with, would say that the vast majority
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  do want to have the gender confirmation surgery at one point, but sometimes it's decided at the
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  very front end.
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  Yes.
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  I wanna do this.
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  Sometimes then I need to to take my time and really think this through.
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  And then there are clinics and support that they can get out there as well.
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  Wow.
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  Lots of misconceptions.
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  I would say the average person I mean, what you just shared with us.
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  A lot of people, including myself when I listen to kind of the way you describe it, right?
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  Cause it's so true.
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  You might know that someone's going through.
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  And I've been exposed to it, like I said, when I was practicing, but not to the depth, or even
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  in corporate at that time, I was act to give my role as a an executive.
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  Yes.
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  There was barely the odd case maybe potentially that would come across in my role, but not very
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  often.
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  Yeah.
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  Now you said that there was some primary steps, right, that needs to be taken when somebody
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  comes forward.
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  And so let say I'm working for a manufacturing company and I go forward and I want to discuss
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  this with I go to my manager.
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  Let's say maybe that's I'm comfortable.
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  I'm not really comfortable going to HR yet because I don't know.
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  What are the steps that the employee does?
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  But what are the steps internally for a company that they should consider it?
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  They don't have it?
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  Yeah.
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  I I think one of the first steps is, like, I wish that really they're all companies.
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  Would be proactive as opposed to reactive.
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  I wish that all companies have policies and procedures.
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  And again, the board procedure in place here, as how do we help support employee who's
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  transitioning through the true gender.
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  So that would mean to really looking at their policies.
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  And oftentimes, I'm asked, can you just review our policies around this?
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  And sometimes people say that the word transgender is not there.
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  Gender diversity is not there.
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  So I said, you need to corporate that.
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  I had one company that was really impressed with them, and they said they want me to help
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  them with the steps.
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  Like, we they didn't have an employee yet.
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  There was they wanted to, like, step 1, whether they step 2, what do we do and really educate
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  their HR people.
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  So they decide to educate all of their HR people on what it is and what not.
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  So that was really being proactive.
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  They consulted with their legal team.
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  Like, in terms of the name change, sometimes there's some some companies needs, like, legal
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  documentations in terms of making those changes.
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  So to be proactive in that kind of a sense and to really seek out somebody like myself who
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  provides this type of support, but to really get himself proactively here, how do we support
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  a person who's, who's gender diverse in the workplace?
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  That's gonna require our help.
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  Mhmm.
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  If they have somebody who's come forward already, again, they're, like, I would say,
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  like, the first thing is to really all that person that you as a company are going to do
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  everything possible to support them.
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  Mhmm.
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  And you're gonna need their help, and you're gonna elicit the help of either an expert like
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  myself or somebody who's familiar with helping corporate companies, deal with, gender
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  diversity in the workplace.
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  And really look at mapping out, like, some of the steps that needs to happen.
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  And, typically, it's education.
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  Like, it's really providing some sensitivity training to the employees, who the employees
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  are working with.
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  But, like, when I go in and I do these trainings, I do I I sign I I clump them in in
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  groups, if you wish, because I think they some of the groups have different, needs.
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  So the HR management group and executive I want them to understand what it is and what it's
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  not.
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  And I really go through sort of the the basics of what it is to be transgender.
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  If the person if there is a per an employee who's already been wanting to transition, I
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  would have typically met with that person first.
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  Because, again, to me, although I've been doing this for many years, I learn each and every
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  time that I speak to an employee who's transitioning, there's some nuances.
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  You know, I don't really like this term.
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  I don't want you to say this about myself.
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  I'm okay to tell you tell, oh, I'm an open book.
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  So I really take it, take cues from that particular person.
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  I go through my slides with them, and they say, oh, I don't like that slide.
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  Can you change it to this?
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  And, again, It's not like I have, like, a cookie cutter approach.
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  It's to me that would that is absolutely wrong.
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  But I have the gen but I can oftentimes say to the employee you, you know, in my experience,
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  this is what I hear up the most, and here's what I I suggest that we handle this particular
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  question that might come out.
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  Anyway, oh, yeah, totally okay with that, or add this to that, or things along those lines.
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  You have to look at it from the different companies as well.
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  Like, if there's a company who is, the employee is just internal and they deal with a couple of
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  people with, like, other departments within the company versus an employee who is an external
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  customer a related person.
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  So they have clients externally, and how do you support those people, and how do you come out
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  to those people, if you wish?
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  So, again, there, it's really helping the company look at so I help them look at all of
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  that.
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  So I always ask, like, what's the employee?
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  Like, what's the role within the company?
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  What they do and really help them sort of look at that from all those perspective.
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  Sometimes they forget about the security people.
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  Know, when the person's like, they have a security to her, like, you know, you go in and
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  there's a security to her.
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  And all of a sudden, you know, John is Jane now, and he is coming in looking more feminine.
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  And the security guard's like, what is going on here?
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  Like, who are you?
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  And so to educate the security guard who's at their front desk as well.
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  So sometimes I forget that, Wow.
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  You wouldn't kick above that.
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  Right?
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  Because it's such a, like, exterior.
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  Yeah.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  Standing stand.
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  Like, the people, they forget all about those people.
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  Sorry.
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  Really help them look at it, and and look at all of those components that they need to be,
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  sensitive and aware of.
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  Now I'm not saying that they need to do a big public broadcast because that's not necessarily
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  good as well.
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  Although some organizations have, and that has worked out really well.
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  Again, it's with the consulting with a person.
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  Whereas I've gone into some organization where they just want the employee to quick the
• 16:28
  manager and that particular team because really that's all of an impact, and I just do that.
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  Sometimes they'll call me back and say, you know what?
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  There's another team that really needs it, can we do with that team as well?
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  But again, it's not necessarily cookie cutter approach.
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  My approach is to consult with the organization, what type of organization, who
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  needs to be trained, is there?
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  Do they have an ERG within that organization?
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  Do they have an lgbtq plus means that gives me signs that there's, you know, there's a little
• 16:56
  bit more openness if you wish doesn't mean that they're completely, you know, not transphobic
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  or homophobic or, you know, but at least there's they're they have some person that or a
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  group of people that can support the the employee, whereas some market organization
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  might be manufacturing, where they've never had an employee, you're being gay is not really
• 17:17
  viewed positively.
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  So I ask all of those questions.
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  Although more and more changing, which is a good thing, but I've gone into some
• 17:25
  organization where, there's a lot of the Transphobia Helgbtq2s plus the the phobia as
• 17:30
  well.
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  They've not looked at this ever, and they're really uncomfortable.
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  And people have So
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  I guess the level of training and
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  approach would be
• 17:38
  very different because if I'm going into, let's say, a manufacturing plant and let's say, you
• 17:43
  know, where maybe there's maybe a bit more limited knowledge.
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  I can't say that what all manufacturers
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  No.
• 17:47
  No.
• 17:48
  No.
• 17:48
  Absolutely.
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  Right?
• 17:49
  I could say that I could probably say consulting firms would be more open may not be
• 17:53
  the case.
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  So that's the same.
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  I I really know from dealing with every sector that you don't know.
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  It depends on the company.
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  So I find this fascinating.
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  So really, let's talk about confidentiality because in our world, we have to talk about
• 18:07
  services and the employees confidence, but then how do you mediate or mitigate, like, the
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  impact of, you know, if it's Jane going through this, but Jane is kinda I'm not so sure.
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  How do you, you know, kind of work with the employee to get comfortable?
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  To kind of have that landing as soft as possible.
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  Yes.
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  Yeah.
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  Very, very good question.
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  And for that question, and to me, that really the cornerstone of the work that I do.
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  So when I meet with an employee, I say, are you okay?
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  So I've because my first slide is literally talking about confidentiality in privacy.
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  And so I when I speak to the employee who's transitioning, typically, they have to say, you
• 18:47
  know, it's, you know, Sean Smith will be transitioning, to his, her true gender.
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  And as of February 1st, she's changing her name to Jane Smith, where as an example.
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  And so they needed to give the basic information around that.
• 19:03
  Some employees are comfortable for me sharing, and that's where I I I spend some time with
• 19:09
  that employee and say, what do you want me to share?
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  What do you want me not to share?
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  Sometimes I just speak in general terms, but I would say something along the lines of you
• 19:17
  know, typically a person who's who's transitioning would consider a gender
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  confirmation surgery as opposed to saying Jane will have gender confirmation surgery.
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  Sometimes people say, oh, is Jane going to have the surgery?
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  And what does that mean?
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  When I say, well, that's that's confidential, and that's Jane Jane will you know, Jane is
• 19:37
  exploring that, but, I can't share that information.
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  But typically, this is what would typically happen.
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  So I try to generalize it a little bit more.
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  And when I do the the presentations, I always say to the folks, I say, please Imagine that
• 19:50
  I'm here talking about you, one of you, and you're not here.
• 19:54
  How would you like your colleagues to treat that information?
• 19:57
  So although I can't force them, and I can't monitor this, I say, please don't put anything
• 20:01
  on your Instagram, Facebook, Twitter accounts, or any other, please keep that all
• 20:06
  confidential.
• 20:07
  And some people have done it in the past, but it's not being malicious.
• 20:10
  Hey.
• 20:10
  You know, we have my, you know, we have an employee.
• 20:13
  We're 1st employer.
• 20:14
  We're so excited.
• 20:14
  You know, John, is transitioning to her true gender, and it's Jane now, not maliciously, but
• 20:20
  they decide to do that.
• 20:21
  But some people are, there's a little maliciousness.
• 20:23
  Sadly, there's a lot of transphobia that's still going on out there.
• 20:27
  And so it's the organization's responsibility to ensure that if there is one of the employees
• 20:32
  is putting pay posting something negatively on their Facebook page that has to be addressed in
• 20:38
  some way, shape, or form.
• 20:40
  They need that needs to be addressed any phobias at all.
• 20:43
  They need it needs to be addressed.
• 20:45
  So I would think that would be a substantive part of kind of your assessment of the needs of
• 20:50
  what is necessary.
• 20:51
  Because, I mean, the phobia could come at any level of the organization.
• 20:55
  Could come from peer to peer.
• 20:57
  It could come from senior management.
• 20:59
  It could come from the direct manager or someone to the front replacing customer.
• 21:04
  Yeah.
• 21:04
  Let's say I'm a a bank teller.
• 21:07
  And then, all of a sudden, I'm now Roman, and I'm not Roxanne anymore.
• 21:11
  And then, somebody's banked with me in the little town I am for 30 years.
• 21:16
  Yeah.
• 21:17
  What's the approach to the external?
• 21:19
  The internal, I I would say, makes sense, right, then?
• 21:22
  Alright.
• 21:22
  You've got some gaps.
• 21:24
  We need to identify those gaps.
• 21:25
  We need to put policy and procedure in place.
• 21:28
  We need to put policy and procedures in place around your social media.
• 21:32
  Human rights.
• 21:33
  Obviously, all those things we have to be aware of, but if it's external or a consultative kind
• 21:38
  of sit what's the approach there, Michelle?
• 21:41
  Yeah.
• 21:41
  So for so that's where it's important that you speak with, like, I would spend time with the
• 21:46
  manager.
• 21:47
  Like, if you use the example of a bank, teller, and you you're the bank teller.
• 21:52
  And then you're gonna get an employee who is, all of a sudden, faced by don't wanna call you
• 21:57
  Roman.
• 21:57
  They wanna call you Roxanne because they've known you for several years, and they refuse
• 22:00
  to, and they become really belligerent.
• 22:02
  So It's important that they have steps in place who deal with that.
• 22:08
  Much like they would have a step in place, if somebody comes and says, you know, I don't
• 22:12
  wanna work.
• 22:12
  I don't wanna I don't wanna work.
• 22:14
  I don't wanna a black teller.
• 22:15
  I don't wanna do
• 22:15
  I don't I don't even know what I'm saying, but she's brown.
• 22:18
  Oh, she's brown.
• 22:19
  Exactly.
• 22:20
  So how do you how does the management deal with that?
• 22:22
  It's typically hopefully, it's not tolerated, and that person will be asked to leave the the
• 22:26
  the facilities or the, you know, the organization.
• 22:30
  So it's important to do that.
• 22:31
  And also important for and because I have dealt with, employee who was transitioning, and they,
• 22:35
  they were, in fact, if I impeller, and so the other the other employees as well, right?
• 22:39
  Like, how do you like, if the an employee's on the on next to you, and I see this happening,
• 22:44
  what do I do?
• 22:44
  You know, do I step in?
• 22:45
  Do I?
• 22:46
  They won't step in again, it's to make sure that they have security measures in place in
• 22:51
  order to in in order to support that person and to make sure that the person listen.
• 22:55
  If you're a trans, person or anybody of a diversity and this has had an impact to you is
• 23:01
  to remove that person from the front teller for a little bit and just, you know, do you need to
• 23:06
  call EAP?
• 23:07
  Do you need, like, have them debrief what happened?
• 23:10
  Because it's devastating.
• 23:11
  It truly is devastating for person to have to confront that.
• 23:14
  And they do that all the time, but when you're doing it at a workplace, it seems, you know,
• 23:18
  that there's there's a you wanna make sure that there's some high level of protocols in place
• 23:24
  to deal with anything that might go wrong.
• 23:25
  And typically, they have that.
• 23:27
  Right?
• 23:27
  Like, they say, well, what happens?
• 23:28
  I'm gonna say they wanna deal with Roxanne because she's trans.
• 23:32
  Or he's trans.
• 23:34
  And I say, well, what would you do if the person says, oh, I don't wanna wanna a black
• 23:38
  teller.
• 23:38
  I don't wanna, you know, a brown teller.
• 23:41
  We don't tolerate that.
• 23:42
  This is what we do.
• 23:42
  So you do exactly the same thing.
• 23:44
  They forget that there's some similarities, like, in terms of protocol.
• 23:48
  And, Michelle, we were in that world where in the behavioral health 20, 30 years ago, right,
• 23:54
  where there was diversity was now, you know, depending on you're in a small town or
• 23:58
  whatever.
• 23:58
  Yeah.
• 23:59
  And, I
• 23:59
  mean, we were talking about diversity, racialized diversity as being something that,
• 24:03
  you know, education and all those things.
• 24:05
  And it's in Yeah.
• 24:06
  It's interesting.
• 24:07
  It's in just another subset of just being diverse.
• 24:11
  Exactly.
• 24:12
  Yeah.
• 24:12
  Yeah.
• 24:13
  You know what I mean?
• 24:13
  And and again, I think as people because it's, again, I'm gonna use the word relatively new
• 24:18
  because people are more exposed to it because there's people are coming out.
• 24:21
  Like, it's not a fad, whereas being gay, you know, that's something that has been there for
• 24:26
  a long time.
• 24:27
  And being a brown person, you can see that you
• 24:29
  can see.
• 24:30
  Right.
• 24:30
  And you're right.
• 24:31
  In a small I come from I grew up in Montenga, New Brunswick, where there was not a lot of
• 24:35
  that.
• 24:35
  Very white.
• 24:36
  Yep.
• 24:37
  Pretty weird.
• 24:37
  Talk to even even now when I go home, although there's more diversity, when I go home, I say,
• 24:41
  oh my god.
• 24:42
  Like, there's so much white people.
• 24:44
  Nothing, you know, not such a thing wrong being white.
• 24:47
  You know, I'm certainly white, but that's one of the reasons I love Toronto, but because of
• 24:50
  the diversity that there is here, I just love that.
• 24:52
  I just think diversity is It it enriches your life.
• 24:56
  How can it not?
• 24:56
  How can it pass?
• 24:57
  Yes.
• 24:57
  Yes.
• 24:58
  Let's talk about kind of, obviously, we know with companies, their breadth and depth, and
• 25:05
  and we know about, creativity.
• 25:07
  We know about diversity of thoughts.
• 25:09
  We know all those things.
• 25:11
  But when we're looking at the lens.
• 25:13
  And let's see senior management is having an issue.
• 25:17
  Right?
• 25:18
  Maybe not all of them, but you have some key power players potentially on that CU team
• 25:25
  having a struggle.
• 25:27
  Yes.
• 25:27
  How do
• 25:27
  you how do you approach that, Michelle, without, putting diplomatically getting you
• 25:31
  fired
• 25:34
  to to
• 25:34
  kind of move the needle because, obviously, you know, this employee's transitioning.
• 25:39
  It's happening.
• 25:40
  Yeah.
• 25:42
  How do you kind of approach that?
• 25:44
  That's consulting or training with that senior leadership team.
• 25:47
  Yeah.
• 25:48
  So for me, again, so when I speak to, typically, the HR that comes forward and they
• 25:52
  they contact, you know, they they would contact me and say, we have an employee.
• 25:55
  Can you help us And I asked them, like, in terms of this management team, like, the senior
• 25:59
  management team, like, are there anybody that that has really is really doesn't understand,
• 26:04
  is not wanting to support this.
• 26:06
  It's important that I know that as a front end.
• 26:09
  So that's also the other thing that I, to do is I also like to do the senior management in HR,
• 26:14
  sometimes together, sometimes suffer.
• 26:16
  I really, and this may sound a little bit strange.
• 26:19
  I want them to ask me all kinds of questions, even if they think it might be politically
• 26:24
  incorrect.
• 26:25
  I'd rather them ask me, and then I'd rather help them understand it better and use the
• 26:31
  correct term or whatever it is and help them see really what's going on.
• 26:36
  Why is this such a there's such an issue.
• 26:38
  They're having such a struggle with this.
• 26:40
  And there could be varying degrees, right?
• 26:42
  They could be that maybe internally that they're struggling with it themselves, maybe
• 26:46
  they have a brother, a family member, or, sister who's transitioning, and they didn't to
• 26:50
  deal with that really well.
• 26:51
  There might be some mitigating factor.
• 26:54
  Sometimes, again, it it's wrong, the misconception.
• 26:56
  They don't understand.
• 26:57
  Oftentimes, people are afraid of things they don't understand.
• 27:01
  So what they do is they put up a barrier is that they're angry, or they don't wanna deal
• 27:05
  with it, or they run away.
• 27:07
  Versus leaning into that fear?
• 27:09
  Like, why am I so afraid?
• 27:10
  Why am I so why do I why am I having such a hard time understanding, like, wanna work with
• 27:16
  trend.
• 27:16
  People like, why?
• 27:17
  It it doesn't make sense.
• 27:19
  So if they could stop, and I can help them sort of understand that.
• 27:22
  And it has happened.
• 27:23
  Like, it certainly has happened where, you know, I go in and say, oh, you're gonna meet
• 27:27
  such and such a person, and they're really, really struggling with this.
• 27:30
  And then so I spend some time might need to spend a little bit of time with them alone and
• 27:34
  really explore
• 27:35
  Extra time with them.
• 27:35
  I would think extra coaching, ever,
• 27:37
  you know,
• 27:38
  it's kinda like, you know, you know, when you had a a new person coming into a team when we
• 27:42
  worked in behavioral health and integrating them or, you know, when we would do right
• 27:47
  sizing downsizing all those things, Yeah.
• 27:49
  And you're creating debriefings for those events.
• 27:52
  Yep.
• 27:52
  I
• 27:52
  would think it sounds like that you're looking at the macro And you're thinking, okay.
• 27:57
  How does this company think about diversity?
• 27:59
  1st of all.
• 28:00
  Yes.
• 28:00
  And then from there, you're strategically tailoring things for a successful outcome
• 28:06
  Yeah.
• 28:06
  For that employee and then also for the culture.
• 28:09
  Yes.
• 28:10
  Yeah.
• 28:10
  And and abs you're absolutely right.
• 28:12
  And I think you know, the work that I've done in, I've helped 100 of organizations from
• 28:16
  Canada, US, Asia, even in Europe.
• 28:18
  I would say that most of the time to say, you know what?
• 28:21
  I don't know nothing about this.
• 28:23
  But we want to learn.
• 28:24
  Like, if I hear that, they said, oh my god.
• 28:26
  That's so good.
• 28:26
  It makes a huge difference.
• 28:28
  At the front end that they're willing to make the changes that needs to happen within the
• 28:32
  workplace.
• 28:33
  But some other workplace are really rigid, right, like they don't wanna you know, they'll
• 28:36
  do the bare minimum, and they don't want to do anything.
• 28:38
  Have you ever boarded a, consulting situation, just because they weren't taking your guidance
• 28:46
  and you were concerned of some of the implications if they weren't going to commence.
• 28:50
  Yeah.
• 28:51
  Not with.
• 28:52
  No.
• 28:52
  I haven't.
• 28:53
  Oh, that's a very, like, I don't know if I was just because of the organizations I work with.
• 28:57
  And I've worked with the financial industry, tech industry, global companies, that people
• 29:02
  have always been very, very open, which is good, which is really, really good.
• 29:06
  And those that aren't very good or aren't very open, they don't reach out.
• 29:11
  They probably don't reach out.
• 29:12
  They just say, well,
• 29:12
  they probably they probably get a whole lot more higher claims and a lot of
• 29:17
  Yeah.
• 29:17
  You know, arbitration, Yeah.
• 29:19
  People that
• 29:20
  will avoid working for them, like, their work passes, like, where goes by, you say, hey.
• 29:24
  Don't work for this company because they're really transphobic or homophobic or know,
• 29:28
  people
• 29:28
  That's that's all it takes is 1, you know, one lie in one line on a social media, you know,
• 29:33
  for it to go viral.
• 29:34
  And then before you know, that's kinda up there.
• 29:36
  And Exactly.
• 29:37
  Exactly.
• 29:38
  Yeah.
• 29:38
  It's it's interesting to see that, you know, people are really truly open to learn at least
• 29:44
  to to understand, but some you can tell, like, it's how people are so uncomfortable the and
• 29:51
  mostly it's because the uncomfortableness comes from they don't wanna make a mistake.
• 29:54
  They wanna offend.
• 29:55
  They don't wanna say the wrong thing, not knowing that it's okay to make a mistake.
• 29:59
  It's okay to ask questions too.
• 30:00
  I say
• 30:00
  Well, you know what?
• 30:01
  It's it's not unlike what the when the George Floyd thing came about.
• 30:05
  Yeah.
• 30:06
  No.
• 30:06
  Obviously, you know me, I'm Browning from Trent.
• 30:08
  I live in a white community.
• 30:10
  I'm mostly surrounded by white friends.
• 30:12
  And when I worked in Toronto with you, it was mostly, you know, I there was not a lot of
• 30:16
  diversity if you think about it.
• 30:18
  And I I remember people got uncomfortable, both of a sudden.
• 30:21
  Yeah.
• 30:22
  People had loved me dearly.
• 30:24
  We're trying to we're trying to ask me things about being different, but these are people
• 30:29
  that would never trip over themselves.
• 30:31
  Yeah.
• 30:32
  But all
• 30:32
  of a sudden started to say, well, can I ask you how you feel when you know, because they wanted
• 30:37
  to know, but they were petrified?
• 30:39
  And I'm
• 30:39
  like, hey, you've known me for 30 years.
• 30:41
  Ask away.
• 30:42
  Anything you can't ask me?
• 30:45
  So I I just think about, I like what you're saying, it's it's about us getting comfortable
• 30:51
  with an with diversity.
• 30:52
  It's existed for ages, right,
• 30:55
  Exactly.
• 30:55
  I mean, since, you know, from the beginning of time, but, unfortunately, individuals had to
• 31:00
  hide, you know, and I, you know, with my, you know, kind of brand, I talk about return on
• 31:05
  relationship, which is that leaders need to be so aware of what they need to be, mentally well
• 31:11
  and resilient so that they can impact others.
• 31:14
  Right?
• 31:14
  Exactly.
• 31:15
  And we want employees to come to work and give them the bet give us the best versions of
• 31:19
  themselves.
• 31:19
  Exactly.
• 31:20
  And to be and to be comfortable being their true selves, that work.
• 31:23
  Yeah.
• 31:23
  Like, I'm not not able to not, be afraid to hide behind, you know, something has gone on.
• 31:30
  You know, the interesting thing around being their true self at work.
• 31:35
  I think, you're absolutely right.
• 31:36
  I mean, I think the George Floyd, I mean, that that created a lot of uncomfortableness.
• 31:41
  And I think that there's a lot of transphobia right now, and I don't know why that is.
• 31:45
  It's just I think people
• 31:48
  are getting more open and they're coming female heterosexual brown.
• 31:52
  And if I wanted to go out into the world, but I wanted to pretend I was none of those.
• 31:56
  Yep.
• 31:56
  Would that reality be for me?
• 31:58
  And I think it's just anybody that just wants to be themselves.
• 32:01
  It's it's like a basic, basic human.
• 32:04
  Right?
• 32:04
  Yeah.
• 32:05
  You know, I just imagine not being able to go to to your work and, you know, having to dress,
• 32:11
  you know, in in something that you're not present yourself in someone that you're not.
• 32:16
  They talk about living in 2 different worlds.
• 32:19
  Like, it's a struggle, like, psychologically, it's such a turmoil for them.
• 32:22
  It's just such a turmoil for them.
• 32:24
  They try to assimilate Most people that I've worked with, they've all said they they've
• 32:28
  tried to assume that they've tried to, you know, be more masculine.
• 32:31
  They try to be more feminine.
• 32:32
  They try to they took jobs that were more masculine or more feminine to be to fit into
• 32:37
  that, but they it just wasn't it wasn't fitting.
• 32:40
  But to be your true sense, like, your return on your relationship, to have an organization who
• 32:46
  is open who is, welcoming to all, art, they're going to attract amazing talent.
• 32:55
  Amazing talent.
• 32:56
  Absolutely.
• 32:57
  That makes a huge difference, in terms of their buy as well.
• 33:01
  Like, if they invest on are, like, you know, return on relationship, their ROI is going to
• 33:07
  increase as well.
• 33:08
  Like, if there's a ripple effect here, I think.
• 33:09
  Of course, that metric is just going to go through the
• 33:12
  roof.
• 33:12
  Absolutely.
• 33:13
  Michelle, I am sure there's a lot of people listening that wanna know what you're up to.
• 33:17
  And I, the privilege that you can shared that with Michelle's just formed a new company with
• 33:23
  an another amazing colleague
• 33:25
  in
• 33:26
  Behavioral Health, and I get to, spend time with them.
• 33:28
  And they formulated a new company.
• 33:31
  So I'd like you to tell them a little bit about you and, bit about the company and where they
• 33:35
  can kind of reach out because I'm sure people will have a lot of questions for you or even,
• 33:40
  understanding more about the kind of work that you do.
• 33:43
  Yeah.
• 33:43
  Absolutely.
• 33:44
  It truly is exciting.
• 33:45
  Like, you know, I spend 20 years in the mental health field and EAP field.
• 33:49
  And I've learned a lot and it was such a great experience.
• 33:52
  And I'm really excited now that with, like, myself and Barb, we both worked at the same
• 33:57
  organization.
• 33:58
  We've decided to form a new company called Avora Well Being So Avora, a Vora, well-being.
• 34:07
  And although our website is not up and running at coming soon with hopefully by next week, and
• 34:13
  you'll be able to reach me at m.arsnowarsenaultat avorawellbeing.com.
• 34:21
  But you can also find me on LinkedIn, happy to respond to any messages that I get through
• 34:26
  there as well.
• 34:27
  So my passion, and this is the part that I really enjoy in our new company, because I'm
• 34:32
  really gonna be able to focus and really develop that and continue to grow that part.
• 34:36
  I think there's still a big need that there's not a lot of people who do what I do.
• 34:40
  I'm sure there are other people as well, but I just wanted to really develop and perfect that
• 34:44
  and really sort of help role that.
• 34:46
  And I'm hoping that people will call and say, we wanna be proactive.
• 34:50
  I really hope people will call and say, I wanna be proactive as opposed to.
• 34:53
  We have somebody.
• 34:53
  What do we do?
• 34:54
  Happy to help with that as well.
• 34:56
  But being proactive is will go a long way.
• 34:59
  And we're doing a bunch of other stuff as well in terms of training, in terms of, counseling,
• 35:04
  come visit us on our webpage, and you'll be able to get a bit more in-depth, look into,
• 35:10
  what we do and what we hope to do.
• 35:13
  Awesome.
• 35:13
  Well, 2 powerhouses.
• 35:15
  No doubt we'll have a you'll have a lot of business.
• 35:18
  So what am I taking away?
• 35:19
  I I guess I'm taking away that when we're afraid we get quiet.
• 35:24
  And I think the opposite is required.
• 35:26
  And
• 35:26
  Or angry.
• 35:27
  Yes.
• 35:27
  Yeah.
• 35:28
  Or angry.
• 35:28
  And I, you know, I use my example and, you know, of of people, wanting to ask certain
• 35:35
  things like, here, Roxanne, when you enter a room and you're non white.
• 35:40
  How do people treat you?
• 35:42
  I was so open to tell people what it's been like for me, being in North America now for
• 35:48
  over 40 years.
• 35:49
  Had thought about it as being something I couldn't share always with individuals.
• 35:54
  So I think it's risky.
• 35:56
  It's recognizing that when you take that risk, The gain is huge, like Michelle shared, with
• 36:03
  companies, regardless of sector and size, diversity is a is a thing.
• 36:08
  It's always been here, but now we are now knowledgeable about what we need to do.
• 36:12
  And if you're gonna be cutting edge, which I know Most companies, or don't just wanna be
• 36:18
  cutting edge.
• 36:18
  They wanna be conscious.
• 36:20
  Mhmm.
• 36:20
  This is such an an necessity, and I would suggest that reach out to to Michelle and chat
• 36:27
  so you can learn a little bit more about where you're at with your company and where what next
• 36:31
  steps you need to take with myself, you know, I released my new book this year, ROR return on
• 36:36
  relationship.
• 36:37
  You just go to roxanderhodge.comforward/quiz.
• 36:40
  It's a little mini quiz.
• 36:42
  If you wanna know how you connect, in relationships, either at home or at work, we'll
• 36:47
  send you a little mini quiz with some results so you'll kinda know where you're at in.
• 36:51
  Potentially, what next steps you need to, make either at home or at work.
• 36:55
  So again, Michelle, thanks so much.
• 36:57
  This has been amazing.
• 36:59
  And, I look forward to, getting this out and for everybody, if you need to reach out and,
• 37:06
  you're struggling in any way, please reach out to me, and I can, make sure that you get a hold
• 37:09
  of Barb Rita and, Michelle Lars Snow.
• 37:12
  Okay, everyone.
• 37:13
  Take care, and we'll talk to you next week.
• 37:15
  Thanks for attending.
• 37:16
  Take care.
• 37:17
  Bye.
• 37:19
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 37:24
  healthy change.
• 37:26
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and co To work with Roxanne, visit
• 37:32
  rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
• 37:36
  We'll see you next time.
• 37:37
  An authentic living with Roxanne.