Latest / WoT Spoilers / The Light of the World & The One Left Behind - Towers of Midnight chapters 54 & 55 - EP579

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The Light of the World & The One Left Behind - Towers of Midnight chapters 54 & 55 - EP579 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, so everyone gets your passports out. It's time to
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: go to Finland. I mean finn Land.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Ah, nice, nice and ale Finland, the land of the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Snakes and Foxes. I mean, I guess we got there
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: in the last episode, but now we dig in.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we landed at the airport last time. Now it's
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: time to get on the tour bus and go see
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: some sights, go see some local attractions and.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Get ripped off by a couple of local charlatans.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Kick up a souvenir. Yeah, kept remember a souvenir Moraine.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: A blue stone, a blue snow, a blue stone that
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: you are snatching out of the fire.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also sustain a permanent life altering injury,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: you know, a basic vacation to a foreign country. Lose
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: a friend forever, Yeah, you do, you do. Generally, the
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: best trips involve losing a friend for all time who's
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: also a hero of great international renown, and generally cause
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: an international incident I.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Think interdimensional incident.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Interdimensional incident. Sure, but no, this is this is a lot.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: We're gonna We're gonna go through a lot in these
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: here chapters.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like there's what you said. You
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: had a lot to say, and I think I have
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a fair amount to say. So I don't think this
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: is going to be a short episode.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: It is very action y, but the action is happening
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: in such a weird, wonky wild environment. I suspect we're
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: going to take a lot of time to talk about it.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: This is basically a dungeon crawl nestled inside My Wheel
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: of Time chapters are a dungeon crawl. It's a man
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: and his oddball collection of people running around through tunnels,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: trying to get prizes in dodge monsters and deal with
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: magic and physics that are not relevant to the normal world.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: They just took a long rest, you know, so they're
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: fully stocked up on their magic and their fire and
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: they're you know, he filled his slots with fireworks.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Right right. They did all their camp casting, dealt with
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: their inventories, got their best armor on, and they entered
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: through the portal and then they hit save game. We
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: hit safe game, and now we're coming back to play
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: this crawl through this series of interconnected dungeons where the
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: rules are different.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And we did we did the intro campaign you know,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: campaign zero in the last one where they get in,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: they get introduced, they get told the rules, right like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: they're met with the one guy, we get the sort
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: of environment. Now we're playing.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like we're on a fetch quest. Now we
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: got to go fetch that magical glowy blue thing at
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: the end of Milwonkee Hall of Mirrors and hopefully not
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: everyone in the party will die by the end.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: Damn it, Tom, It's not polite to go kidnapping your wife.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: That's not how you're supposed to get them.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Well, but if you kidnap them from the kidnapper, does
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: it cancel out.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, going to a foreign land, kidnapping your
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: wife taking her back to your you know place, I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: mean maybe I guess she was there from there originally.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the only I mean. She did
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: go there of her own free will, right.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Right right, and she is unconscious and unable to consent
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: on her way back.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Well, no, she did send a letter saying please come rest.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: That is true. Good point, good point. Good point.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Specifically, say I'm stuck and I would like rescued.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Now consent has been pre approved.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, God help me. Step gleeve and I'm stuck in Finland.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You're my only hope.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, should we actually read the book?
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: God? No? Why are we struggling so much with this?
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Because it is a fun one. I don't know. I
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: think we're This is one of the I think I
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: was saying earlier, This is one of my favorite Sanderson moments.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I think. I think he writes the reveal of the
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Ashindari as the key really well. I think he builds
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: up to it really well. The action's really well written,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: the environment's really well described. This is sort of what
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: the kind of stuff Sanderson really excels at, which is
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: a very visual action scene.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Very technical magic.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: The snakes Head Foxes are lawful chaotic, if that makes sense, right,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: and so you really want someone who's rules lawyery doing that. Yeah.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is possibly my favorite of everything
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: that Sanderson did in these books. Definitely, it's in my
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: top three. Definitely, this entire sequence is in my top
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: three because it's just it's been coming for so.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Long, right, and the rescue coming for so long.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Jordan gave us the Ashandari in book four, he took
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: morn Away in book five, right, like this has been.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: You can tell Sanderson's as excited to get to find
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: out what happens next as the rest of us, right,
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: And he's just what he's good at as a writer,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: is what this scene demanded. And it's just a beautiful,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: constructive way if it's more than the sum of its
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: parts in so many ways. And yeah, the Ashandari reveal
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: has me tearing my hair out every time because I'm like,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: just figure it out. But yeah, no, the first time
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: I read it, I was like, I don't know what
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: he's trying to figure out. I need him to figure
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: it out because I'm gonna die of stress. But like, literally,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: right up until he figured the Aushandari out, I hadn't
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: put it together the first time. Like despite, I know,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: it's amazing. It's really pekee Sanderson, and it's amazing that
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: he's doing that with Matt, this character that he continually mishandles,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: he also manages to pull this out of the hat.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: The mirror reveal that I think really works with this
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: one is that the letter Tom has been carrying around
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: and says like, you can't show it to Matt until
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: he asks about it. I thought that was also really
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: clever way for like that's why he keeps bringing it
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: out and handling it and flashing it in front of
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: and like going back and reading through the book. Like
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I think Jordan really set that up because Tom is
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: constantly pulling out the letter and like sort of thumbing
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: it in Matt's face through the entire series, and like
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: that's a really good like, oh yeah, he wanted Matt
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: to ask about it, and Matt just wasn't asking about
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: it until he was ready. And because that was like
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: the pattern putting that like safeguard, like you can't pass
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: this checkpoint until you've achieved these skills, So you're not
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: not going to ask about the letter until you know
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: you're capable of actually rescuing marine and you've met the
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: third like right, Like all those sorts of things had
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: to happen.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: And I mean having the night Flowers, having the arrangement
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: with Eludra, having the ability to just call on her
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: for you know, I mean, you know night Flowers used
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: to be so ope back in book two, and now
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh yeah, here have a couple backpacks full.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: It's fine knowing Brigida for all the inside information, having
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: all of or be playing the game right, So that
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: that's also like so he knows how to cheat, right,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: All those things had to happen having.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Nol go through whatever internal process it was that Noel
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: had to go through in order to like come up
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: to this moment and be ready to do this sacrifice. Right, Like,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: we don't even ever get to be inside Nol's head,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: but clearly he is wandering and looking for something when
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: he finds Matt, and he has found it by this point,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: to the point that he's willing to sacrifice himself and
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: consider that to be cleansing of his reputation and his name,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: and like we never see that happen. But also the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: pattern needed Nol to go through that in order to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: be able to be here.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, do we need to talk about Jane Farrestreider's
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: story and history part of this as part of the
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: send off?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean probably because because he dies, we should
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: probably remember his life at some point in all that. No,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: this is big and emotional, and yeah, it's an action scene,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: but I just I don't see us going through it fast.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: All right, let me read a sent the Light of
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the World, and our symbol is the snakes and the foxes.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Shocking the door symbol.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: The door symbol. Yeah, although I guess I always pictured
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: the door the triangle as being the other way, but
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I suppose it would make sense for the wide part
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: to be a top.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he describes I read repeatedly, very carefully, because
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I was confused, and it is always described as point
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: down when he makes the door. Okay, no shuffling your
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: feet through the doorway. You have to really step high.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: And the wavy line I thought was horizontal though, and
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the icon it is vertical. Yeah.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I always thought it was vertical, but I was much
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: less paying attention to that than I was to the
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: orientation of the triangle.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a foxhead shape where the wavy things
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: go across the eyes and then the points.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Matt finished by drawing a wavy line down the middle
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: of the triangle.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Damn, I am just terrible at reading, aren't I.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: It's good to note that we both don't have reading comprehension.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: The Light of the World, Tom held up his torch,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: inspecting the enormous star shaped black columns and their glowing
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: yellow lines. Those lines gave the entire room a sickly light,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: making Tom look wan and jaundiced. Matt remembered the stink
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: of this place, that musty staleness. Now that he knew
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: what to look for, he could smell something else too,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: the musty stink of an animal's den, a predator's layer.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: There were five corridors leading out of this room, one
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: at each inner point of the star shape. He remembered
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: passing through one of those passageways. But had there not
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: been only one way out before? I wonder how high
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: up the pillars go, Tom said, raising his torch higher
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: and squinting. Matt held his ashendary in a firmer grip,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: palm sweaty. They had entered the fox's den, he felt
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: at his medallion. The Eelfin had not used the power
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: on him before, but they had to have some understanding
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: of it, did they not. Of course O gear could
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: not channel. Perhaps that meant that Eelfin could not either.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: I think that's where I'll stop, because I agree with that.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think the elfin can channel.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think they have the same relationship to
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: the power as the O gear. But yeah, I would
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: agree that neither of it's fair to say that they
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: both can't channel. Clearly they have some ability to manipulate
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: objects that interact with it. They can taste it, know
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: what a tarangriol is going to do. They have some
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: capacity to interface with knowledge of it. But yet no,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: they don't. They're not human. Channeling is for humans. It
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: seems to me like there's a genetic component to it.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: I would suspect that there's a species component to it.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: And the efant are interdimensional. Snake fox people, much like
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the ogear are interdimensional. They're fairies, right, yeah, exactly, they're
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: the fay. They have other powers and they know how
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to manipulate our world. But that doesn't mean that they
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: have our powers, agreed.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: They have the ability, you know, they exist in the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: fate web in a lot of ways. That that that
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: gives them the ability to see the future, right they
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: I think of the web space that they live in
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: because it is it's a web. It's designed like a web.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: It's described as a web. You know. The foxes live
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: in the straight parts of a web. The snakes live
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: in the curved part of the web. And there the
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: web is strung between the black pillars and a lot
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: of ways, and they see the future, right, and so
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: they live in this this web of fate that overs
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: sees the pattern in some way, and that's this world
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: of the Fay. Because they exist outside of time, they
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: you know, they have the ability to tell the future.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: They know what's going to happen, they know he was
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: coming back.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. In Waldorf, the very first lesson they gave
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: us in first grade first day, a first grade first
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: lesson was that there are two fundamental units in the
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: world who can understand everything, through everything through the straight
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: line and the curve. Everything is either a straight line
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: or a curve. And I have found that to be
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: wildly consistent. It's so consistent you can like break something
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: down into is either straight segments or.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Curved segments, linear algebra or calculus.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Right, right, And so every time you bring this up
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: about the Finn, I'm like, there fucking is again. This
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: is a straight line of the curve. There they are bad.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: They fucking are again again and again and again and again.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: It's always there. And yeah, they exist outside of time
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: and space the way we understand it. But they're not
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: the creator. They're not the dark one. They're not omniscient,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: world creating, omnipresent. They just exist in a very different
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: relationship to space time than we do, and.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Have some ability to sort of see the pattern, right,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: because they look over everybody's head, they see the fate
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: of these people. They see what's going to happen to them,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Like there's some understanding of the whole pattern.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, h mars pan Ray's is a good terminology question.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: In the age of legends, they said, spinning webs in
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: the way that we talk about weaving threads in the present.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: The web of the pattern, right, not necessarily, Yeah.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of weaving analogies and just.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Like in general, fate spider, you know, the fate web,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: the fate spiders, like the three women, right, is this
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: the norns?
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, spinners of fate right, Yeah, I mean analogies of
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: weavers as controllers of destiny or rife throughout various human
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: mythologies and cosmologies. If you can take fibers and turn
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: them into sheets, take strings and turn them into planes,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: you have some magic powers. You exist outside of the
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: regular world of you know, gravity and fire.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Well, on top of that, I mean talk about the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: fact that like programming comes out of weaving, and like that,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the idea of counting and you know, creating patterns that
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: end up in your you know, the early weaving machines
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: were programmed essentially, and that's that's how we can we
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: use the punch cards that were used for early weaving
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: to create early computers, right, Like, it's a whole throughput
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: of like essentially, you know, and weaving was what one
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: of the if you weren't a farmer, you were a weaver. Right. Clothing, food,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and shelter. Those are the three things. And if you're
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: either making food building houses, but most people built their
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: own houses, you know, and then close.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, acquiring fibers from plants or animals, or you know,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: acquiring sheets of stuff in the form of like skins, right,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: but yeah, being able to make that is magic. It's
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: magic if you can take these little things and turn
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: them into these much bigger things in that it's you know,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: it's literal wizardry. Use you use magic sticks and you
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: take the thing and you sing some incantations and then
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: you're warm poof.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Right, And like what clothing does for us in terms
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: of like the places we can go, the environments we
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: can survive in, both hot and cold.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: All right, So Matt, they come across the doorframe that
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: was melted when Morain went through.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: It is the assumption this one is, yeah, melted, it's
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: not the exploded one. Later they find the exploded one,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: but this is the melted one, and so, yeah, that
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: has to be the one that burned in the trailer.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: In the wagon, right, we saw it like melting, We
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: saw acrid smoke coming off of it, Like, yeah, this
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: is that one. This is the one that Morain and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Landfeir came through.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: And like, so this is in a way the room
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that Morain and Landfeir were in when they had their
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: little fight, right, So they were fighting in this room
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: until they got like shut down and captured by the Fin.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Is so is this the point at which they've transcended
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: out of the Tower of Genji and into the other
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: because there's like three towers right in the overall layout.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: So the last chapter.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: They what I'm thinking is maybe one tower is the
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: one tower for each door frame, and one tower for
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the Tower of Genji, and that's what the three towers
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: are represented of the three passageways that connect the world
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of the Fin to the to our world.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: But then when they pop back out later, they still
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: come out of the Tower of Genji.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, you just rip your way out the mm hmm.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: But don't they like find their way back to the beginning, right.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I read this yesterday, okay. Right, So, as of
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: the end of the last chapter, they had gotten through
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: the first foyer of the puzzle, and now they're in
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: the room with the first of the red stone doorframes
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: and it's melted, right, and they're like, well, that's fine,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: we weren't going to get out through here anyway. We'll
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: just continue. This is sort of a tourist attraction, scenic byway.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the first place he visited with its twisted
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: coils and circular doorways, that's the place of the snakes
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: and the foxes. We see that in the next chapter.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: It was not like the second one with the star
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: shaped rooms and lines of yellow lights. So a star
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: shaped room, lines of yellow light, that's the foxes. This
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: is the place that's the towers are not exactly square,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: they're sort of weird offset rahmbuses or whatever. Right, So
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: when we get to this chapter, after they've traveled for
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: a while and they get to the doorframe, it's in
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a place with a it's a star shaped room. That
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: star shape tells me it's the realm of the foxes,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: which would match, because the realm of the foxes is
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: where he entered when he came in through the doorway
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: in Rudian right right, the snake's one. He went through
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: the doorway in tier. Remember Alfin Elfin, snakes, foxes. They match.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: There is logic somewhere. It doesn't have to make sense,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: but it does have to be consistent.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: And he visits them first in that order, right, right, right, right, snakes, foxes,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Alefin Elfin. I don't know why I like, because they're
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: just everything's in order, right. It works because we say
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: them in that order, and that's the order in which
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: their name, that's the order in which you visited them.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Jordan pretended to hate us, but he did actually loved
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: There were a.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Few things that make it pretty easy. I like his
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: little analogy about like cattle being walked through the slaughterhouse
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: a couple of times before they come back.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really true conditioning people, and I mean even
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: in like a less sinister context of like slaughterhouses. Like
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: that's the concept of desensitization training, right, if you're terrified of,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: like I don't know, going to a large stadium. Maybe
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: you get to go to this like a stadium game.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Maybe you get to go to the stadium first without
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: people being in it, and like experience that and get
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: the lay of the land. You know, Like there's so
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: many ways that don't have to be sinister about this,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: but like, yeah, going into something that seems dangerous and
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: then being able to get out of it without the
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: sky falling. This can be leveraged for good things. This
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: can help you expand your window of tolerance, or it
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: can be used to get you to tolerate things that
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: are going to be deadly right either way. Either way.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: But it makes sense that Matt goes super sinister with
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: the slaughter thing, because you know, they are kind of
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: gunning for his eyeball in his life, I think mostly
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: his eyeballs. I think they really want the experience of
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: him being blinded and then going back into the world
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: and giving them more memories. I think if he died
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: that would be the lesser of their options.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I think they would like to capture him though, and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: like keep him and like serve like they could the
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: way they do with Moraine, where they sort of drained
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: her connection to the one power. He's this Taverin, and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: that's like even more potent, right that Taverian nearly collapse
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: their world because it was so potent. So I bet
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: they would love to capture him and use that like
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: connection to emotions, you know, Sons of Battles, which I
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: think is a great name considering that's what they made him, I.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Know, right right, yeah, No, they they mostly have good
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: outcomes set up for themselves here, Like this really is
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: him playing against a casino, right, like the house always wins.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Is the scenario that the Finn have set themselves up
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: to be in control of the fact that he gets
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: away as little as he does, they still win, even
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: despite everything, they still win.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: So they're sort of going through and like do we
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: have a chance, And I like Tom's like, you know, yeah,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the prophecy said we have a chance, right, Like, let's
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: just go for it, and they do. They have Matt's
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: luck to even the odds, which is the only thing
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: that's going to get them out.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Well again, you know, if you're gonna win at a casino,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: it's going to be with someone like Matt's luck, right right,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And so then we get upgraded e if and not upgraded,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: we get more elite Finn coming at him. They call
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: themselves the near Ancients, the Warriors of Final Regret, the
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Knower of Secrets, the most skilled. It's like, oh, I
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: didn't know they had hierarchies and grats. Like I knew
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: they had the ones that gave prophecies as opposed to
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: just the regular foot soldiers, but like, oh, we have
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: elite warriors. It's like, what kind of society you people have?
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Nowhere of Secrets, the near ancient.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I assume the ancient are the ones who stand on
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the pillars and like give the gifts.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, that would make sense.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And so these being the near Ancient, would be like
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: those who guard them, the Warriors of Final Regret. I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: suppose the Warriors are just regret.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Now. The Warriors of Final Regret is a sinister and
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: excellent band name. If we sort a death metal band,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: that should be our name, The.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Warriors of Final Regret. Yeah. I like that. I like
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: that a lot.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I like that they seem ski scary.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: So they give up on the flute, like, you know,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the music only worked so much. It seems like maybe
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: on one it's fine, but in a group it's not
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: working on them. They can resist.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: It makes sense, right, like a lone speaker against a
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: group of singers. You know who's gonna open right, So well,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: lone musician against an army of hissing, spitting warriors. Yeah,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: it might be a little bit less potent.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: So Tom, you know, pulls out his knives, iron knives.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, now we get to see how the iron because
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: we've seen how music affects them. But now that's a
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: little bit played out, So now we're going to see
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: how iron affects them. Okay, iron can make contact. Any
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: other material will pass through them, like smoke, but iron
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: because fay will make contact.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I think the blade isn't made of iron, and
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I guess steel doesn't count. That's that's always inconsistent. I
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: notice in certain mythologies is sometimes steeled. They're like, oh yeah,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: steel's iron just with a carbon in it. That totally works,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and another ones are like, no, pure iron only, and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: this appears to be a pure iron only situation.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because his Oceandari blade passes right through. It's Tom's
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: blade that he has specifically made to be iron that
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: passes through. And then the ashindaraes butt end can make
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: contact because it's iron capping on all of the momentum
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: of the way to the staff.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: It does seem silly to me that he tries first
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: with the blade when he knows that he needs it.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Was a little bit like, sir, you could remember to
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: practice with the with the medallion on the blade, but
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: you can't remember that it's not iron.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, although again this feels a little stormlined archive
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: where you have the blade passing through somebody, because that's
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: just you know what the blades do in Stormloine archive.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: They kill the soul, but they don't actually cut you
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: if you're alive. Ah, sure, So I don't know, just
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: just a thought.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: It also makes me think of a certain velociraptor jump kicking.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: We get the steam thing where their blood like is steam,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: but with faces in it, kind of like the faces
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: in the clouds with the dark wood. It's very creepy,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: very visual, very visual.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So Sanderson and so this is basically them, as far
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: as I can tell, attacking to stop them from getting
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: to the bargaining room.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're using the dice to get to the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: bargaining room, so they've come into distract from the ability
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: to do that, right, They're like, oh, this is your technique.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: We will interrupt what you need, which is a quiet
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: moment in which to roll the dice.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: But they snatch them, so he this is sort of
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: them snatching the dice forces him into a more effective
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: way of figuring out where he needs to go, which
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: is the spin around and point right right right.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: He's like, fine, I'll just be my own random number generator.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: It's fine, which I'm almost so like you say, you
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: didn't need dice in the first place.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: But that's what he depends on. That's what he's used to.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: That's his representation of luck. But like this spinning round
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: is analog versus the dice, which you are digital. Right, there's
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: only six options on the dice spinning around and running.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You can go in any direction.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Sure, And also like, yeah, it makes sense that his
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: need is sharpening his magical powers essentially. Right, First he
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: needed the arcane focus, and now desperation is for him
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: to be like, no, no, I don't actually need my
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: arcane focus. I can just do it with pure vibes.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: But his like luck needed his dice to be taken
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: away so he could do this other method, Like it
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: was lucky they stole his dice, right, Like that's the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: level his luck is working on essentially.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Also, those are gonna be some hella like status symbol potent. Ooh,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: look what I got amongst the lower ranking fin like
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: that that got the sun of Battles's dice and then
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: they can trade it and use it for favors, and
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: like it's gonna.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Be these like it's like imbued with his luck in
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: some way.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, these things. It's not as good as his eye,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: but it's not nothing. It is an I mean he
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: even says at the end that he really liked those
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: dice and he would have liked to have them back.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: There's definitely going to be a lot of status to
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: be acquired within finn society as a result of possessing
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and trading those die like the Gambler's dice, right, these
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: are going to be mythic lower objects that actually have
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: their own kind of power in the land of the fin.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: The horn, the Yeah, so he says, the spinning around
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and pointing worked before. When did he use that before?
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Finding two on and solution when they ducked into the
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: fabric shop.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Good callback nice?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean one of the most important other things
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: in his life. Right, Like, that's like the woman he loves, right, the.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Thing that makes the dice go off, and has had
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: more than anything else.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Right, Right, it wasn't such a dire circumstance, but it
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: was still a time when he had to upgrade his
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: skills out of desperation.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: So they're getting overwhelmed, so he tosses the first of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the flash bang, I mean night.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Flowers, night flower, He tosses a grenade, which you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: it's hard to be conditioned against a large boom, even
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: if you kind of know it's coming.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Especially in enclosed space.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Fire Works at close range are very startling and bright.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Right, these these things depend on darkness, and like they
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: don't like light, they don't like fire. That's this is
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: the cheating, right, This is the second of the music
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: is played out. They've used the iron. Now they're on
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: to number three, which is fire. Yeah.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they controlled the darkness, right, They can move
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: in and out of the darkness. They almost have like
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: a fade's ability to use shadows to transit. So yeah,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: if he forces a daylight spell onto the whole area,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: that locks them into place for a moment. Oh my, God,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: yes voujie. Someday a future bargainer is going to ask
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: for luck in some capacity and be given a luck
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: to Ungreoll, which is Matt's dice from you know, a
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: different age one hundred percent in like the sixth age
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: or something. That's probably where his original like neck tarangri
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: all came from. Right, just something completely different, something from
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: someone else, because that's always been the question, right as
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: do they make or simply hoard and redistribute right items.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Here's here's my theory. Right those dice, because you know
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: the faner detached from time, they're actually given out quite
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: some time ago and become the terran ungreal that land
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Fear has in book two.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: That weird like the dice, you're all things together thing
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: that never went I never meant anything, you know. My
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: brain started to get there as you were talking to
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and yeah, I could totally see that. I could totally
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: see that.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it works at all, but
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: it's a fun little head cannon. Yeah, I don't care.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: This is non Euclidean logic.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: We're fine non Euclidean theories.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this magic does not need to make any sense.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: It's fine, purely vibe spased.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: So they're able to charge sort of wagonly through one
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: of the corners, through the darkness into what doesn't look
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: like a corridor but it just looks like a wall.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: But then they end up in another room. That was
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: how I read it.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a smoke and mirrors and weird lines
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that point to the wrong horizons, and he just trusts
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: his luck and runs essentially headfirst at the wall and
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: then it turns out there isn't a wall there.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Tom is so impressed that he offers to let Matt
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: play his harp. And that's like, I don't even want
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: to play your damn harp. It's so funny. But yeah,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: it's it's a good clever trick, and I think he's
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: right that. Yeah, Brigida, that's how they got her. Right,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you just keep walking right passed the door. I never realized,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: because it's right there to trail your fingers along every
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: single square inch of the walls in order to know
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: that one of those gaps is actually there.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: And would would that even work? Would like? Because if
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: you're trailing your fingers along the walls, is there enough
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: of a magical barrier that you like have to like
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: punch through and know it's there, right, Like right, you have.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: To kind of run forward hard enough to break your
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: nose in order to move through the thing.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know it's one of those because
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: it's a weird other world physics illusion. Yeah. So when
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: he goes through, right, so he's gone through this shadowy
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: thing and suddenly he's in an area where there's no
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: dust on the floor.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Uh huh, So.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: This is sort of my is there some sort of
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: not only are they in different places as they travel through,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: but are they actually in different times? And that's why
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you can't find her, right, because that you come through
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: on a time that's much older, so dust has had
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: time to accumulate. And then you pass through this area
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and you go sort of back in time to a
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: younger time in the Finn's world. You go to a
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: younger version of the Finns world where it's not as age,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: not as old, not as dusty, And that's how you
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: can find he had to not only travel through space,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: but travel through time to get to Moraine. That's why
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: you would otherwise never be able to find her. That
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: little like corner passageway is because this is not Euclidean
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: space and not Euclidean time, so you can pass through
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: a four dimensional world by using three dimensional directions, and
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: that lack of dust is our clue that time has
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: changed and that you've gone back in time.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I'm almost thinking like it's like a web and a
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: gravity well kind of deal. Like the closer you're at
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: to the center, the faster time is flowing, so like
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: out at the edges you have like long abandoned dusty corridors,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and then as you work your way in towards the center,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: you are moving closer and closer to like a more
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: present slow real time fast real time kind of.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: My brain is the look you gave me, It was
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: pretty intense. You just you were like, oh my god,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: oh your brain was working hard off of that little suggestions.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: I don't think you're wrong though, non Euclidean space time,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: not just non Euclidean space, right right, Yeah, that makes
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of sense, especially as per our earlier discussion
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: about how they can see things in the future. That
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: makes sense if they literally can operate on a web
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: gravity well flexy.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Thing where them traveling through space also involves traveling through time.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: They can see your future.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: They can literally just walk the corridors of your life.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: That I had never thought of that, and that's why
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: it took me so long to process that. But yeah,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: I like the idea that that's what's up with the dust,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: because the idea of them cleaning up certain areas versus
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: not cleaning up other areas, that makes no sense. But
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: as a marker of where you're at on the web
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: with respect to the center of the gravity, well yeah, yeah,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: He spends a long time talking about this dust, and
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I'd have to go back and look at, like, what
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: what's going on before?
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: And then even in the next paragraph he says time
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: blended here, you know the is it a long walk,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: a short walk? Is it ours? Is it moments? Right?
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: It's that's reiterated by multiple characters that deal with the Finn.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I think every time that we go into these spaces,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: the concept of time and same teller and reodd right
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: time is a very tangible, malleable thing. When we step
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: out of outside of mid Guard, you.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Know which and real and the last battle right time
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: is you know? In the series, time is very clearly manipulatable,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: so and.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: The Finn are fighting in that battle in tell I
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Runriod bubbles in that space.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Not to mention, like real world we know that time
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: is one of these things like that if you're traveling
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: at some fraction of the speed of light, we don't
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: agree on how much time is passing based on what
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: we're observing, right, Like time is not an absolute speed
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: of light locks in causality, Right, we all agree that
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: one thing happened before another thing, but we don't all
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: agree on how long before.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Just yeah, there's all sorts of weird things about relativity
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: that are just fucked up when you realize, like there
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: is no such thing as simultaneous simultaneous events simultaneanity. Yeah,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: that's that's the word I'm looking for. But yeah, you
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: can't really say that these two things are happening at
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the same time if there's any distance between them, because
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: depending on the direction you're traveling, one could happen before
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, no, relative and so like then, not
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: to mention, like all the real world effects we know that,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: like gravity, wells have that. We know that, like you know,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: acceleration has that. You know. It's just it's clear that
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: time is something that changes in space too as well.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Like we we literally have lasers that fucking shorten and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: lengthen as way gravity waves roll through that planet based
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: onto black roles colliding, and we can measure the way that,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: like distance itself changes with those lasers.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those Lego experience experiments really just upgraded my whole
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: comprehension of the concept of space time.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: We're physically being squished when those waves roll.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Through space is as unreal as time is. It's just
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: all based on motion and relative position to other things.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: That's all anything is, is just motion.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have to ask me my opinion about
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: like I think space time are going to be discovered
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: as emergent properties of something else that's going on. Right,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Quantum physics seems pretty solid and baked in, but quantum
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: physics and gravity don't agree.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them has to go in order to
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: make it make sense.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: One of them has to go, and it's going to
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: be gravity. I think. I think the gravity just because
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: it's you know, our fundamentals of space time are too fungible, right,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Like they change too much. There's too many things that
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: can change them.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Is blurriiness at the edges sense of certainty that gives way,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: whereas quantum physics is just uncertainty all the way down.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: So it's probably real.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: But the way that time undermines so many of our
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: equations and time is like not a real thing, and
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: just like, I don't know, it's blowing my mind right now.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Thought is the ero of time memory never fits.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why these these
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: discussions of these books so often diverge into physics discussions
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: is because Jordan was a physics like major, right, Like,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: he took these ideas of time dilation and relativity and
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: he built them into the magic systems of his book.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he wanted to make his nightmares that kept him
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: up at night. Everyone's problem from a physics perspective.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: And then the way that like in Minecraft, Fucking the
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Nether is based, you know, the way they have different
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: relative coordinates, so you can go to this alternate dimension,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: travel for a short distance, go back to the big dimension,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: and you've traveled for a much longer distance. Are you
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: familiar with this?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: No, but that sounds like the ways.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: It so, yeah, it's what I've heard, And I don't
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: know if this is true or not, but my understanding
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: is when Minecraft was built, the dimension called the Nether
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: that you can transfer into has a one to eight ratio,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: So every time you make a portal, it essentially multiplies
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the coordinates by eight, and that's where it portals you
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: back to in the real world. Right, And as far
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: as I'm aware, was based on the creator of Minecraft
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: had read the Wheel of Time and based it on
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the way neat So I think that's true. I've heard it.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I don't, like, you know, I don't have any proof.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: It might be apocryphal, but yeah, it's it's just sort
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: of funny the way that like that relativity goes into
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: the books, which then you know, goes into these games,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: which is like you know, then you know, which became
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: one of the more popular games out there.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, absolutely, Okay, So they've gotten farther forward, they've
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: gotten deeper into the thing, and they get into a
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: room that he actually remembers this time. Right, there's there's
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: a star shaped room with eight tips and only one
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: doorway and eight empty pedestals right where answers could be
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: given or where trophy, as saida souvenirs can be acquired.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Because this is finally it long last where more rain is.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: This is where we keep our pet, I said, die,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: And she's just at a column like I always want like,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: what's keeping her alive? Is she being fed? Is she
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: being like is it just magic draining out of her?
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Like it's not like she can stay alive on her own.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I've always just wondered, like what is she in some
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: sort of suspended animation while being drained? Like what's the deal?
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of imagined it was sort of like
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: a stasis kind of thing where like cognizantly, like her
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: soul and her mind are alive enough to be fed on,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: but like her body is kind of had a stasis
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: time loop, some kind of suspension, because again, they can
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: manipulate time. Maybe they've literally made her the epicenter of
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: a warp in time where time has like barely passed
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: for her body at all, Like how long has it
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: even been for her? Right? She never gives us any
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: idea of how long subjectively she experienced this to be.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: She says, I was there for a time. At one
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: point a man came and took away land fear, But like,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I have no idea how long that was, Like it
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: might have been as little as a few weeks for her,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: even though it's been like a year for us. But yeah,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I kind of imagine some sort of magical stasis that
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: just only allowed her soul to experience time while her
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: body just doesn't. Or it's a magical medbd that's you know,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: feeding and cleaning and making her muscles be active. But
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: that seems a little bit technical for statistic fin magic.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Right. But they want to keep her alive, to keep
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: draining her, right, So there is this like to keep
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: her alive, they have to do something to ensure that
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: she's not wasting away from just like hunger and thirst.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Right, So I figure it's stasis. I figure stasis makes
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: more sense than some kind of magically induced medical coma,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: just some kind of put her in magic ice. Because
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: they can manipulate time, why not just slow her body's
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: sense of time to like one hundred to one or something.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Then this is moment where he sort of like has
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: a if you want to call it, come to Jesus,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: but sort of this under empathetic moment right where he says,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: I get Moraine. Now, I get what she was doing.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I understand her motivation, and I I both like and
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: hate it because again, it's I think it's a good realization,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: but it feels too way, too spelled out on the page.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I'd rather see a comment where he says something or
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: there's a subtle sign that he's had this realization. I'd
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: rather be able to interpret this from something he does
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: or something he says to marine, rather than having this
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: just spelled out on the page in his thoughts.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: To me, it really reads like closure around parental trauma
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: in therapy, sure, which if you're doing big, intense work
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: around your parental trauma, you do have to say it
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: this clearly spelled out on the page. That is like
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: definitely part of what that process looks like. And this
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: looks like a little chunk of a therapy session. That's
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: what it feels realistic to me, because that's what closure
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: around massive parental trauma looks like. And I think that's
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: why I like it, because it's like, I mean, that is,
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: she is a parental figure to him, she is a
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: mentor figure to him. There is a lot of angst
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: in trauma, and like, this is how you would release
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: it in the kinds of therapy context that I've been in.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: This is how you would describe that and like need
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: to verbalize that and be like ugly crying through it.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: It is a little bit, you know, heavy handed in
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: that Sanderson way, but it's that is what big closure
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: looks like. So I don't know if it's come to
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Jesus so much is its closure because I don't really
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: know what it come to Jesus moment looks like in
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: detail as opposed to this' So.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: The moment when he realizes is all his hatred device
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: and ee might like actually.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Be wrong, which I don't think that's what this is.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: This is his hatred of Morain specifically. This is him
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: letting go of a very specific like anchor that's been
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: on that one relationship. This doesn't change his whole worldview,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: It just changes this like load bearing part of his
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: personality on the inside.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I like it more than most of Sanderson's emotional closure
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: moments because it does look recognizable to me from therapy.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: And I feel like he's got a pretty good read
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: on rain right, unapologetic, unyield thing and selfless.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of what Rand described her as too,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: being the most honest in what she wanted to do,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the most dedicated without subterfuge like they both are having
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: similar revelations around her in this chunk of the book.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Now, she omitted information all the time, but she rarely,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you know, was obsticating that, right she was usually Yeah,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: she was. She was obfuscating actually a little bit. Going
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: back and reading out of the World halftime, It's like,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: oh my god, she just like was up for two
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: days and cast all the magic and it was at
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: her edge, and then cast another spell and exhausted and
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: collapsed and hasn't had a chance to talk to them
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: and didn't have the privacy And like there was at
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: least in the very beginning, I think she wasn't hiding
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: as much as it felt like she was hiding. It
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: was just she didn't have an hour. And then there
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: were then there were times when she could have told
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: them stuff and she didn't.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Right, But like Matt and rand both got to see
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: her go through that transformation at the end of the
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: AEO arc right before right, because they both saw her
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: before the land Fear encounter. Right, they both saw her
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: going from the high and mighty eyes to die to
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: someone who's like, no, I will literally throw my entire
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: eyes Toedina's to the side to serve the mission in
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: a way that Paren didn't. Right Paren was gone. Paren
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: was doing other stuff at that point, So yeah, she
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: omitted a lot, but when push came to shove, she
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: continued to do what she said she was going to
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: do in a way that like many other eyes that
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't many other just general smart, powerful people who
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: were supposed to be the adult year adults didn't. Moraine
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: always ended up still being on their side.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Because if you think about the amount of time she
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: spent with them and they have the world, it actually
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't very much the more with Paren and agwaygcause she
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: reunited with them earlier. But like she sees them in
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: The Two Rivers, gets them going on their journey. They
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: do a couple of weeks travel, they end up in
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: shadow logos. They all split up. That's most of the
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: book with them split up. They meet back up in
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Camlin and they are off the Eye of the World,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: and then the Eye of the World happens, and like
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: by the end of book one, she's actually spent very
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: little time with the boys.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's usually scary. She shows up to say
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: your worst nightmares are about to come true. It's hard
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: not to see her as the harbinger of your worst nightmares,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: not to mention.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: You know, she'll kill you if you go over to
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: the dark side, and she's made that very clear.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she doesn't become someone you can even begin
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: to trust for a long time.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: It's really not until like Paren's locked up in the
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: mountains with her, you know, and she's like, don't go
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: down to the and she and he are like fighting
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: every day. That's the point where it really becomes a
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: relationship among equals.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Well even then Matt's not there because he's often the
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: White Tower. Like they all have their own arc with her.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: But yeah, every time the push comes to shove, she
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: comes down on the side of protecting them.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: And mostly Rand, right, because that is her quest. And
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: she even says, like, I really fucked up by not
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: putting more attention on the other two and really focusing
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: on Rand once I realized he was the Dragon Reborn,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: because for twenty years that was her quest with the
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Dragon Reborn, and then there were two Taverian with him.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: But whatever, like Taverian or you know, I she says, right,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: I should have spent more time focusing on the fact
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: that there were three Taverian in one village, and not
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: just that I found the dragon reborn.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sometimes the eldest jog gets all the love.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Is Matt. Wait, I guess Matt would be the youngest.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: For sure. Paren's the middle Yeah.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because Mat gets away with everything, everyone ignores Paren
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: and then Rand is expected to save the world.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all that closure and feelings aside. Tom is the
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: one who's willing to throw himself in front of a
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: bullet for.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Moraine for love, get his arms all burned up.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he has to reach through the searing steam to
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: actually physically collect her and like take that pretty serious
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: hit to his hit points.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's I mean, talk about an analogy for love, right,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: reaching through fire to pull your loved one? I mean,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: and that is the prophecy, right, reaching through fire to
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: snatch the blue jewel out of the flame. That's Tom.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, that was a men vision or a Gwayn dream.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Either way, it was a prophecy that he would reach
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: through fire to get a.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Bluestone Agwayne's dream Fire of Heaven, chapter fifteen.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Not long before she got thrown into that fire. No,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: and yeah, we get a reminder that she's any bitty,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: tiny little woman for despite being a massive presence on
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: the plot and on all the characters, she has to
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: be naked for reasons. But then her future husband somehow
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: magically swaddles her, So that's fine.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Well he's got the gleaman's cloak well, and also remember
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: just how tiny she is. If he's got a cloak
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: that fits him, it's going to wrap around her like
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: three times.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so she gets all burritoed up, which is good.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: They take off the ongre all.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I feel like he's worried that it's like
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: somehow like chaining her to the thing or like inhibiting her,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: which seems like a pretty safe bet. Like he pockets
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: it like you need it, but like I see why
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: he takes it off, because it's.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: It's a woman being tortured, like bent over backwards and
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: chain hand to feet, like it's not a pleasant bracelet.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like it might possibly make it harder
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: to get her out of there, maybe.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Possibly exactly agreed a great agree.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: It turns out that's not true, But I totally see
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: where him as a warder is like, maybe the weird,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: sadistic jewelry on you is not a thing that we need, right, now.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Not a good idea. So the pedestals are occupied by
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: eel fin all of a sudden, right, that's the typical dream.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: You turn around, they're not there. You turn back around,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: they are there, right, very very dreamlike time shifty, space shifty.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: And it says all eight were white instead of black.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Did they wear black in his first like, I was
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: trying to make meaning out of that?
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I think so, I don't remember, but I like the
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: idea that the colors invert when you come again.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: And I was, yeah, I was just trying to figure out,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: like what the meaning behind them wearing white instead of
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: black would be.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Probably the he broke the rules, the fact that he's
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: there without like the fact that they are there with
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: different constructions on them.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: But specifically it says all eight were white instead of black,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: and he wouldn't say that unless at some point they
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: were wearing black.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Was it just the other ones that we've been seeing
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: earlier in the chapter that were wearing black or is
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: it just that they're not dressed in the color of
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: shadow because they're here to actually answer things?
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Right? Yeah? Okay, So here a figure stood in the
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: hallway behind them. It was one of the creatures Matt remembered,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: perhaps the exact same one who had met him last time. Short,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: bright red hair sprouted from the creature's pale scalp. A
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: pair of ears clung to the head, slightly pointed the tips.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: The figure was willowy and tall, the shoulders disproportionately wide
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: for the waist, and it wore pale leather straps across
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: his chest. Matt still did not want to know what
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: those might be made of. And a long black kilt below.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's got to be some kind of rank
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: classification thing.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: So but yeah, the one who met him at the doorway,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: the one who was you know, the I had the
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: cool band name Kay. He was wearing a black kilt.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Lawyers of Fun. And so at this point Matt switches
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: into the old tongue. His word choices changed slightly, and
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: we hear later from Nol, I think I caught what
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: you said in all that old tongue shenanigans, right. I
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: believe this is the point at which Matt switches to
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: old tongue when he says, mark, your tongues speak amiss,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: and they'll have you strung up.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: That's in the old tongue, and I think that they
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: both know enough to be like, he just said, shut
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: the fuck.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Up, right, right right, mark your tongues. Yeah, that that
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: he doesn't normally say mark your tongues. That's a very
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: old tongue phrase.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: It's very Shakespearean of him.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: And that's because what he's talking to Tom, or Tom's talking,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: and then he hears it's an ungrea all from the.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Fin right they addressed him, and we know that they
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: speak in the old tongue exclusively. So yeah, when they
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: open the conversation.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: And so from that moment on, he's he responds in kind.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: He matches energy, one might say, matches language, right right.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Tom says, oh, well, I think this might be an onreole.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Then here's.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Behind him, and so Matt tries to sort of make
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: a bargain and they're like, no, it's already been. The
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: bargain's been made. Just sign here, like the bargain the
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: prophecy has already said what the bargain is going to be,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: which is half the light of the world. Right, it's
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the title of the chapter.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we set this up a long time ago. We've
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: arranged this. We're just ready for you to sign.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And so then he makes I have three demands here.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I want the way out restored as part of the bargain.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: I want it back where it was and open again. No,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: and then he sort of says, no blocking it up
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: or making it bloody vanish when we arrive. And I
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: want the way to be direct. No changing room is
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: about a straight pathway, and you can't. And you bloody foxes,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: here's where you mess up. Can't knock us unconscious or
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: try and kill us or anything like that.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: One word change and Nol gets out.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Finn, you bloody Finn.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: One word change and Nol could have lived.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: And then he says, we take her, we get out.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: That was sort of my third demand, was he they
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: take Moraine.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the way it's open and clear. The foxes aren't
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: in the way, and morangets to come with them. One word, Matt,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: one word, one word. You don't even have to change
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the first letter.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Even if you just said you fuckers right.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, None of y'all, none of y'all get to
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: get in our way.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: M M.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: I guess it's because he just thinks of the foxes
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: as the bargainers, right. The snakes are the answer people,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: So he's just like, well, obviously the snake's not part
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: of this bargain. And it's like no, no, no, no, no.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: The snakes and the foxes work together when they want to.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: And as he thinks here, like they're kind of dissatisfied.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: They didn't expect him to get this far. And I'm like, eh,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: I think that there are factions. Some of them are
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: really excited for you to get this far, others may
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: be less so. And yeah, it makes sense that the
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: snakes would be another faction. Yet that can be called
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: on if he does manage to slip the news here.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I think what throws you off is if you go
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: through the Stone Gateway, you think you only visit the
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: snakes or only visit the foxes. But they went in
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: through the Tower Genji, which visits both worlds. Right, that's
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: the intersection of the snakes in the boxes.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then yeah, they say, all right, fine, that's expensive.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: But turns out the bargain has been said yeah to that,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: that's we do understand that one of your eyeballs is expensive.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: So you know, here we go and.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: The experience of losing it, and I mean, there's just
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: so much seeing through his eyes right, is something that
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: he talks about a lot. Is somehow like that's special
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: to them, the fact that they're seeing through his eyes
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: and seeing what he's seeing. And that's where I think
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: where the eyes are so important to them, more so
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: than just like the experience of having an eye torn
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: out or.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: We Also there's a preciousness to the fact that he
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: gives it up willingly, you know, taking it from someone
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: that you have held down and are has not consented
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: to it is very different from someone who willingly steps
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: forward and says, you can do this to me. You
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: do not have to restrain me. I am consenting, Like,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: consent is a very magically potent thing when you're talking
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: about dealing with other worldly creatures as well as you
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: know in real life obviously consent is a very magical thing.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: But like it has potency in this sort of magical.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Deal and you know that they're like it twists around him,
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: It spins the fate, right, the fate web spins around him.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I can taste fate itself.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Right because he's become odin right. This is the moment
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: in which like he's the one eyed God, this is
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: the moment in which his decision of rescuing Moraine changes
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: the outcome of the last battle, saves the world. Right,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: this is the moment in which the fate web he
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: is ta vere into the utmost it is spinning around him.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: He was fated to do this, and now he has
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: chosen to step through that hoop, that crucible, that passageway,
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: and yeah, he's completing his transformation into Odin, which again,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: you know, he hung from a tree for nine days already, right,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: he started the process. But this is when he, you know,
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: gives his eye to the head of my mirror to
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: see the future. He's, yeah, passing through, cinching shut, putting
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: the bow on his featedness.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: And can I say, I really fucking hate the fact
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: that he refers to his ashendari as a spear. Here
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Matt fell to his knees, spear clattering to the ground.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Fuck you, it's not a spear.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: It's an osandi, always has been, always will be, and
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: in this moment of all moments, should have been respected.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: And later he says, I was like, oh, maybe he
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: had a spear and an ashendar eye, and he was like,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: you know, because he needed the iron spear. I was like, no,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: that's the Ashenda because he scoops it up again and
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: it's the ashen daray and that he picks.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Up one of the things I really like about this too.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: That just gives you that little hint of the barb
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: for what could have been an out rigger. Even though
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: this is Sanderson writing and you know he won't do
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: an out rigor, he does have this moment where Matt says, know,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: this is the last you'll get of me. I'll escape,
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: I'll get you out of my head, and the Elfin
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: says we'll see right before he rips out the eye,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: And I feel like Sanderson knows he's not doing an
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: outriggers aren't happening, But that's one of the off ramps
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: on which an outrigger could have been built. And it's
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: nice that he's just like, now here's here's the healed
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: stump of what could have been a branch for an outrigger, right.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Because, yeah, Matt has this quest after the last battle
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: to get the Finn out of his head.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he has two quests, you know, deal with the
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Sean Channon slavery, deal with the Finn still having one
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: eyeball to look out of from.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Him, whereas parent, you know, parents settling in to be
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: king of two nations, rans off on his like you know,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: room Springer.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: His healing journey where he meets himself, this journey of
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: self discovery. But yeah, Matt's got stuff to do.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: The women have to buckle down and actually, you know,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: run the world now that the men are all fucked
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: off to do whatever, because they're all left as the rulers.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Right, Nieve has to help repopulate a nation. Well a
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Gwayne's dead. She doesn't have to do any more work.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: True, they'll bring her back.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's going to go be a hero in the dream.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: She's too much a master of the dream. But anyway,
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: the Finn have a very orgiastic good time with Matt's eyeball.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: The one that actually does the ripping out is basically
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: like completely brains blown out, like a puddle on the floor.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: The others are also pretty worn out. It's it's a
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: very intense experience, this culmination of so much that has
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: been faded finally spinning out. And then he does an
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Indiana Jones and is like, I'm.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Not leaving the hat.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's a damn good hat, and I'm bringing it
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: with me, which.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's Matt's hat. That's it's got its
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: own personality, it's got its own storyline like that comes,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: you know, all the way from Kadir.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Also the Odin esthetic.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's the Odin aesthetic right, And he has
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: to pull the hat down over the shaded eye socket. Right.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: That's that's the that's the move that we've been waiting
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: for since he's been the Odin hanging from the tree
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: with memory and thorn, you know written on his blade,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: which are the two.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Ravens Memory and thought. Right, it's not thorn.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Sorry, that is a different series. Tad Williams mess a
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: song of memory in or what Let me look it
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: up because I don't want to get it wrong. Memory,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: sorrow and thorn. Ah, So memory and thorn is yeah, no,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: memory and.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: Thought yes, and yeah. Tom goes wow, I only had
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: to sear my hands.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: God, no healings bringing that eye back?
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: No, No, The best he can do is not have
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: an infection that goes up into his brain. That's the
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: best eyes that eye can.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Do for him. Then there's this moment here where Tom
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: clutched marine close to his chest like a miser, holding
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: his gold What was she to him anyway?
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Gee, Matt, I can't imagine what that body language says.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: It will forever be a mystery.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: The tenderness in Tom's face was not what Matt had
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: expected to see. I'm wondering if there's a maybe a
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: little bit of like Sanderson me, like, I didn't expect
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: the two of them to be together in the notes.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: I mean I would allow it. I would allow it, yeah,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: and just be like no, I mean i'd send the
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: notes I'm writing it. But also like I had a
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: bit of a take of taking aback moment. Oh, I
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: like the idea of Fouji. Maybe a line can figure
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: out some kind of glass eye tear on greel thing eventually.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Nice if anyone can.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Or just like take the Foxhead medallion and somehow embed
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: that in an eye.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Then he couldn't lose it easily.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, and I think having read us, you know,
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: going back to the first five books, the relationship betwe
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: between Tom and Moraine was very clearly foreshadowed, and it
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: was very clearly on the page, even if it was
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: very subtle. Yeah, for sure, I don't question them being together.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Like going back and it's like, oh, yeah, she was
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: a mighty fine woman and she knew who she was
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: going to marry, and.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Like, you know what I think it is is it's
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: that it was flirting that older people would do trying
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: to be interpreted by much younger people. Right. This is
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: people who have already been through some shit, they've had
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: some heartbreaks, and they're flirting very subtly, and a bunch
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: of like teenagers who have only just figured out relationships
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: at all, or like, I didn't see it coming.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: I'm so confused.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, maybe get some more life experience then
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: it will make more sense.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: And just just oh my god. The meta conversation they
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: had when they first met is so good and so
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: hard to if you don't realize that they probably know
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: the other person on site, you know, like maybe or
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: at least by reputation, if not on site. You know,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: when she says Tom the Gleaman and she and he goes, oh,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: lady Morain, she knows court Bard and he knows I
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: said I immediately, and then the flirting is there because
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: they're just there's a level of respect in terms of like,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: you know, she basically says, you don't tell that I'm
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: an I said I, and I won't spew out that
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: you're actually a court Bard and that you have secrets.
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: Too, even though court board means a lot less to
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: the two Rivers folks than I see.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: But they have that conversation right.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Like, oh yeah for sure, for sure, but yeah, they
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: take off they leave. Nol says, I think I've actually
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: finally seen something that no one else has ever seen,
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: which I'm like, okay, well, first of all, other people
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: have seen this. There's two men here with you right now.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Also other people have come to the Finn and had
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: interesting bargains, but whatever.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't like his whole like, oh, I've seen everything.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Now I can die, Like what what do you mean
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: you've seen everything? I know you've traveled a lot, but like,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I've seen enough, Like I'm ready to go. I don't know.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: I never like that, like as.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: A yeah, it's it's whatever. But he does ask, you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: should we kill the mother down? And Matt says, yeah,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: I break the bargain. So they scoot out of there,
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: and Matt's starting to feel real good about himself. And
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: even on my first read through, and Matt starts to
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: feel good about himself, I'm like, oh no, no, don't never, no,
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: don't pop the champagne before you get out of the
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: evil place, like not evil the Finn place. You're still
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: in the land of Fay. Don't don't let your guard
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: down like it's just But he does. He starts to
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: feel good, he starts to feel awesome, even though his
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: I saw it still hurt like the nethers of a
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: freshly gelded stallion. Ouch, that's spicy. Then Nol says, so,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: my old time's a little rusty. But did you not
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: specify that the snakes needed to leave us alone? Horrible moment.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: That's when the chapter switches, and and that was when
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: I was like, God, damn it, Matt, I knew your
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: feeling of confidence was wrong.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: So now we go from feeling like we're up high
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: on the top of the world to oh shit, run run, run,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: run run, everything's going to go wrong. This is the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: bad place.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're you know, just just getting close to the
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: finish line. And then it's run any direction as long
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: as it's away. And then we go to the next
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: chapter with the ominous title, the One Left Behind, which,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: you know, if you understand the concept of plot, armor
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: and everything, it's obviously going to be nol because Tom
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: and Matt and Moraine have to live. Like Noel was
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: always going to be the red shirt, but uh, the third.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: He was always going to be the third, right he
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: had to die to you know, life for a.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Los not really a red shirt, but he is the
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: sacrificial lamb, sacrificial old man. He's kind of the opposite
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: of a lamb, sacrificial ram.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: This feels a lot like when Varren sent the five
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: in and for Bible Rights.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: I've read fourth and for a Return, and you do
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: the math. You're like, it's going to being Tar. It's dark,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: there's no one else that can die.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: And it was such I mean, his his death was
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: almost i would say, one of the best deaths in
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: the series, right, like.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Very comparable to this one. Here's a narrow passage, a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: lone man could hold back an army for minutes to
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: let the others get away. It's kind of the same thing,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: even the same passageway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I'm
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: not mad about it.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: It's a good move and redemption in a lot of ways.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Like you know, Inktar was a dark friend, but Noel
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: Jane farst Rider was manipulated by and compelled by Shamaiel
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: and then later by Grendal.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: He was a sock puppet for the dark.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in a lot of ways, he's also done
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: as many bad things as Intar did, and so it's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: a similar sort of level of redemption for like, that's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: why he has to die, right is this?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Like, and they're both Borderlanders. Yeah, there's actually a lot
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: of really really good and juicy parallels there in so
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: so many ways. I'm not mad about it. It's a
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: move worth pulling out twice in the series is massive,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: and it literally bookends what a different time, right that
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: thing with ng Tar, back when Matt literally just had
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: a stick and didn't even have a cool hat yet, right,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: like and now here he is fully opened out, but
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: he still needs an old borderlander on a redemption quest
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: to hold the army in a narrow passage. All right,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: So they're running, they're running ramontaging through a lot of running,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of smoke, a lot of night flowers, a
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: lot of desperation. Like we're really speed running, just a
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: nightmare scenario. They thought they were out scot free and
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: they're not.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: Well discussing all the wishes that were made right, They're
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out some way out. He's like, how
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: do they know about your eye? What else did they say?
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: Anything else can be a clue? You know, how did
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: you get out last time? Basically that's the big Like
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: I almost think that the whole reason Jane Forrest had
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: to come along was to be like, so, how did
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: you get out last time? Because I think that's the
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: question that really gives them the clue.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Tom's the one that asks that. I mean they both
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: ask it. Yeah, it really says what else did they say?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Tom asked anything that can be a clue? How did
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: you get right?
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: So just cut that.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so they're asking that, Okay, do your trick
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: tell us the way out because they're lost now right,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: They've gotten off the straight path, and Soot's like, okay,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: I'll do the spinning around thing. And then it's like, well,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: the snakes are too close. The path you need to
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: go on is always occupied by the snakes.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: This is back in the day when you had to
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: print out the geocity map and you didn't have like
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: an updated dynamic map, and you could only have like
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: the one route and if you got off that route,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: you were just fucked. You had no where to go,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: and I want to get back on the route, but
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: there's construction in the way. Everywhere I go, this construction, like,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: and you just get further and further off the path.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, that's totally what's happening. And yeah, they're winded,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: they're running out of supplies. Looks like even cheating isn't
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: good enough.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Right, his luck tells them the only thing you can
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: do is run back through the ale fin the snakes.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: And so that's when Nol does the map and is like,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: I can buy you enough time to get enough distance
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: to be able to go back and forth, because that's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: the only way that you can move out across the web.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: You have to be two rooms ahead so you can
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: go back a room, and there are only one room behind,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: so someone has to stay behind. Yeah, Athlon's correcting me,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: not GeoCities map Quest.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, you're right, you're right. Yeah, map Quest.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: GeoCities was the web blog hosting site.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: I know that you knew that back before your memory
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: went because you're old, because you remember things like GeoCities
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: and map quests.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: I don't think that happened because my memory has never gone.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: I would remember if my memory went.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: How's your back, how's your knees? You take an advil.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: We literally put a new mattress topper on our mattress
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: yesterday because my back has been hurting so and never
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: stip has been hurting. Do But yeah, and my knees
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: they make noises when I stand up. That's fine.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, They've always done that for sure.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, and the noise is don't hurt at all.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they don't. Hey, listen, I'm in pretty good
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: shape for my age. I will say I can get
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: up and down. I know a lot of people who
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: are in their mid forties who have a lot more
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: trouble with their physicalness than I do. For sure, I
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: still feel like I'm in my you know, late thirties.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Cool. A few years lag so before dying, Noel does
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: the thing where he tells Matt, if you ever meet
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: him Alchirie, tell him Jane Forestwriter died clean, and Matt,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: you know, rolls with that emotional punch and deals with
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: his surprise. Later he just immediately says, got you, Jane,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: And then you know, afterwards kind of was like, wait
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: a second, did that just fucking happen?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Tom? Meanwhile, is like, yeah, I know, of course he
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: was Jane Forrest Wrider, you fucking moron, like, which.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: Is presumably why Noel made the statement to Matt and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: not to Tom. He's like, well Tom would say that anyway.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Matt's the one he needs to be told directly, right.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Right, what's up. It's just like, oh my god. Yeah,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: they've got the same fucking last name. He called him
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: his cousin. It's like, yeah, a friend of mine was
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: trying to buy some weed legally. Uh yeah, if by
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine, you mean you, No, no.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: Not me.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: His name was my brother, Sean Tolson.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. The other last comment I had about this
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: is that Noel screams about will cry not in any
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: tongue Matt had ever heard, so not the old tongue.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've heard that a couple of times where he's
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: like said something in old tongue that Matt is not
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: familiar with. I assume that's just there to be like,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: he's traveled so far, he's heard of languages that even Matt,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: with all of his fast lives, has never encountered. I
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: assume it's just a he's so far traveling because he's
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: not screaming out in Malchiere.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Malkiera doesn't have its own language, and the old
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: tongue is something that would recognize. I'm just like, what
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: random place that he traveled in his life matters so
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: much to him that that is the language he wants
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: on his lips as he's dying.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Seems to be Yeah, I agree, Sharon, because he did
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: travel to Shara's and my assumption is that no one
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: from Shara has ever traveled through the Gateways because they're
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: in rand Land, so there's no memories from Shara for
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Matt to pick up on that language.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, that totally makes sense. But again, just like
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: what in Shara mattered to him more than all the
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: things in Randland, Like he talks about his wife's death
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: really affecting him, but he doesn't, you know, scream things
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: in old tongue Malchiri ceremonials. If it's like what happened
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: to him in Shara, that makes that the thing he
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: wants to be his last words. Confusing.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I think it again, it's more to say, oh, yeah,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: he's traveled far and he's actually Jane Farstrider. You know
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: something that Sanderson does, right, it's for the plot.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe that also matches the clothes he was wearing. Maybe
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: I was wrong before about them being malchyri closed. Maybe
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: they're clothes that match whatever the language he's speaking is,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: because then there would be some congruity with how he's
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: choosing to die, Like for whatever reason, that's how he
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: wants to go out, is with that dress code and
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: that language.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: And one kind of assumes he spent you know, the
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: last forty years in Shara, right, He was a twenty
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: ish year old, twenty to thirty when the borderlands fell,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: when Land was a baby. Land is now forty five ish, right,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: So one would assume that forty years ago he traveled
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: over to Shara and was there for you know, the
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: majority of his life. But you know, the travels with
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: Jane Farst writer, he was traveling.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but all over the place and had time to
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: write a book, and had time for that book to
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: propagate out across the Rand like continent and become part
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: of like household conversation.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: One would assume the travels are the first like ten
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: years of his journey.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but still, I mean, when did he have
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: time to go on a book tour if he was
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: in Shara? The whole time.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Well, it's one would assume one I keep saying this.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: I assume someone like Tom wrote the book based on
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: like stories that he told, you know, and like, don't
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: I don't believe Jane wrote the book. Someone else is
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: writing the book the Travels of Jane Farst writer. Oh
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: you think, yeah, I.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Was assumed, you know, Marco Polo style travelogue.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: There's a bard somewhere with his name at the bottom
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: of that, the biography that you know, Sure, yeah.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: The definitive biography.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: By otherwise it would be my travels as Jane Forrest writer.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Sure, but still oh and then chats telling me that
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Marco Polo wasn't even written by Marco Polo. Okay, well
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: that makes sense because he was a lying, cheating bastard.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: It's but still, there has to be time for him
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: to have the travels and have that story get put down,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: and have that story propagate out across the world so
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: that way everyone knows it and has at least heard
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: of a copy of it.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: But again, think about he forty years ago, malt Care
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Falls forty five years ago, whatever, Right, he's traveling for
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: ten years. The book is published, has ten years to
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: spread then Rand is born, so you know, it's super
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: popular ten for ten maybe you know, and then he
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: reads it as a ten year old.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: And so then around the time that Rand is born
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: and he's going, Jane is going over to Shara and
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: spending like the better part of twenty years there. So
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: he's pretty recently out of Shara, like within the last
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: five years before now.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: Well, and don't forget like he was so we have
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: he's one of the ones who talked about the Eye
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: of the World, right like, he was compelled by Ishamael
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: to give the message about the Eye of the World.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: That's why he was sent forth like a fool, right like,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: he gave that message that was a trap.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: So does that mean he was plucked out of Shara
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: to be turned into a sock puppet to deliver that message?
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: Does that post date his time in Shara, assuming that
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: Shara is where he was. Let's see, I need the
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: timeline of Jane Farrestwrider please.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Right, he was young when he brought the fair Heart
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: the Dark Friend betrayer of him roth Kaer before the
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: great Lords of the Seven Towers to face justice. So
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: he sort of created the and he was instrumental in
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: the arranging the down fall of Monkiere shortly after the
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: Io War. So twenty years later at the you know,
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: basically at the birth.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: Of Right, when Rand was born and when Land and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: Moraine joined.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: Up more or less, yes, right, all this is happening
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: decades after the fall of Malchiere. Jane appeared in an
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: Ogier's steading near death and conveyed the message that the
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: Dark One was going to bind the eye of the world.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: He recovered in the steading then left. So before that
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: time he had been compelled by Ishamayel.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, and that was at the end of that
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: period of his life.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, Ishamael told Rand he had allowed Jane to believe
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: he had escaped to a lure Rand Tarwin's gap. But
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: that's like at Rand's birth twenty years later, Grendall is.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: Using him, right, and we don't know how she acquired.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: Him, and so he never escaped to Shamayel. Now what
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: he was doing in those twenty years, one would assume
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: he was in Shara somehow, you know, being kept track
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: of by Ishamael.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: So while Rand was alive is when this chunk of
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: Jane's life is occurring, in which we are assuming he's
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: off his Shara, like becoming an adopted son or whatever
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: it is that's giving him this language and costume upgrades
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: that is so foreign but also still yeah, always being
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: tracked by a Shamael and then able to be yoinked
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: from that life abruptly by grand All. I guess, I
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: guess that's why he's back in this line. Maybe that's
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: maybe that's why he has this other language and this
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: other outfit and all this stuff is because he was
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: ripped untimely from his comfortable life in Shara where he
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: thought he was free, and he just wants to get
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: back to that because that was the life he had
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: made for himself after getting away, and he's just kind
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: of in this perpetual state of being sad that he
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: got taken away from the life he built for himself.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: Too bad he never fucking mentions it once. There's so
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: much angst and heartache that could be happening here, but
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: instead he's just like, well, that seems like a good
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: person to follow around, and I'm only going to talk
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: about my wife from before all this shit went down.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: And so remember he's in Abu Dhar because Grendel's trying
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: to use him to find the Terran Greil cash. He's
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: a tool that she's using to find the cash.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what, that's what he was there for? How was
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: he supposed to find a cash of Terroon Greil Because.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: He's just a clever guy who's looking around. She had
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people there looking for the cash, right,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: Basically all of her tools were were pointed at looking
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: for the cash in Ebudar.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: So why did she get access to him per se?
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Like what gave her the right to use him for
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: such a menial, boring thing to do? Like using like
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: a circle of dumbass and dark friend eyes to die
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: is one thing, But why would you use this singular
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: old man who's halfway around the world and already played
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: out because he did other stuff? Like what makes that
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: a tool you bother to reach for?
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: He's famous enough, Like I think that's the one thing.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: He's so famous you don't need fame in order to
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: do subterfuge. It's like the opposite of what you need.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: You do for Grendall, you do for Grendall. She only
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: takes the famous and pretty people. And he's famous enough
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: that he doesn't have to be that pretty. But she
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: sends him away to just.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Be a rat terrier looking for some random treasure with
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: a bunch of other people who aren't famous. I don't
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That's weird.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe she likes the old man. I don't know.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of unsatisfying answers to Nol's entire context.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Sure, but you know, looking at this right, looking at
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: the timeline, he spent twenty five to thirty of the
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: past years under the influence of a shanmeo and really
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: only broke out of that compulsion when he encountered Matt
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: and was able to sort of like save Matt, and
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: whatever light compulsion Grendel had on him, he was able
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: to shake that off to become Matt's friend.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: Having even one nol pov would have been so freaking illuminating,
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: Even one time in that man's head would have given
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: us so much to nail this down with. So, yeah,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: they get out. NOL makes it possible for them to
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: get out of the loop with the snakes, and Matt
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: had a brief moment of thinking maybe he's a hero
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: because he allowed his eyeball to be ripped out, But
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: he is immediately disabusing himself of that being like, no, no, no,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: that man you left behind is the real hero. I
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: would argue that you're both heroes Willingly, allowing someone to
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: rip your eyeball out is not a non heroic thing
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: just because another man decides that he needs to throw
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: himself on a grenade a few minutes later, Like, you
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: can both be heroes. It's not pie.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: So we're back, you know, in the Snakes area because
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: he can see the three spires.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they essentially were able to leap from one
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: tower to another by doing the back and forth path thing.
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: They get a very large distance away.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think there's none other tower, because he
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: can see all three towers. They are actually in the
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: Snake's part of the web, right, And so because they're
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: heading back to the first doorway, which is in the
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: Snakes part of the I guess it's not want I
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: want it to be in the one of the three towers,
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: but I don't think it is.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the three spires are one unit of the space.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: It's not the whole space. But yeah, they were in
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: the three spires and then they jump out really quickly
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: because of the magic of how the space doesn't work.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Space time.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: Continuing onward towards the answer chamber, and then Moraine's starting
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: to wake up, I'm assuming because they're getting away from
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: the times stasis energy sucking field that they've been in.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: So she's starting to like come back into her body
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: and into real space.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: Right, I assume, just recovering from the suckiness. Right, She's
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: been sucked, you know, to the edge of unconscious and exhaustion,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: and so she's just like needs to rest.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and like also, you know, for imagining she was
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: at the center of like a gravity well where her
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: body was in stasis. Like take a second for her
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: to like warm up and like get her heart rate
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: back to where it should be and like just yeah,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: come back into it. And so then they come into
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: this room where there was a red stone doorway, but
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: it's all exploded into chunks. It's not melted, it's shattered.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is the stone doorway that was in Tier,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: and we never I don't think we ever see it
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: from the Tier side of things, right, It's just continued
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: to be tucked away.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I briefly thought that this was in Kyrie and
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: and got smashed when the ring and Kyriene got smashed
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: but Kyrie and and Tyr are not the same place,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: so I don't think that's what happened.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: I think what happened is a shameel Morden. Morden came
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: in through the because the other one was melted. I
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: don't believe he came in through the Tower of Genji.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: I think he came in through the stone tear on
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: greal In Tier killed land Fear right, because that's how
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: he got her out. And we know he went in
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: there because Moraine says a man came and said, you know,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not looking for her, I'm looking for the other one,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: and we know that was Mordan. And I believe he
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: destroyed it on his way out.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Just as a final fuck you to anyone that would
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: try to rescue Morain.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, that makes sense.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: I really wanted it to connect to an actual event
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: we saw in the Ape side, but it can't.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: And he can use the True Power to destroy things, right, Like,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: that's the sort of one would assume that also Lanfear
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: was using the True Power when fighting Moraine. Maybe then
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: that destroyed the I don't know if we can assume that.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: I think we can assume that, but I could totally
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: see more than using the fist of God crush attack
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: with the true power to destroy the doorway on his
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: way out. That totally would fit with hism o. So yeah,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: they're stuck assessing their options or lack thereof. Matt does
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: his spinny trick and he points at the door. I
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: think you should be putting at the Austan door right. Personally,
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: I think the trip and you know, fall nose first
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: onto his spear kind of deal. But you know whatever,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: we need to ratchet up the tension. And yeah, Maureen
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: kind of wakes up in time for Tom to give
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: her a goodbye la la bye, while Matt you know,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: freaks out and figures out how to get out.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: Ah. Here's why I thought Noel had asked how did
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: you get that last time? Because it literally says how
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: did you escape last time?
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: Noel had asked, Well, maybe they both asked him at
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: various points, and it's Nol's voice that rings in his head.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: Louder, I think that's interesting. I think that might be
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: a typo, because you're right, Tom asked it in the book.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: But I mean, I could totally see Nol having asked
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: that prior because it's a really important question and we
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: just maybe aren't remembering because why.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: That's just wrong, bummer, that's just bad editing. That sucks because, yeah,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: you pointed out and I was like, why was I
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: so certain that Noel asked?
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: And I like, because it first says him on the page,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: You're not.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: Right, says on the page. Yeah, it says he asked by.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: That seems like a typo.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: That does seem like a typo that should be Tom
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: had asked.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: Or NOL should have asked it in the first It's
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: much more satisfying for it to be this lingering, haunting
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: question from the man who just died. Tom doesn't need
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: to ask it. Tom says plenty of other things that
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: line could have been given to NOL. Just fine.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: Alas, But yeah, Tom says, how did you get out?
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: They threw me out?
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: Matt said, yeah, yeah, he's just kind of replaying that conversation,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: and his said, because I mean, ultimate, it doesn't matter
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: who asked the question. The point is that he is
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: now going over the answers to that question with a
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: fine toothed comb, while Tom leans on the power of
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: music to bolster their spirits as they all face down
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: certain death.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I just read that whole section. There's no
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: point does he say anything. All right, Okay, I can
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: move past it.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: The point is that Matt keeps realizing he didn't ask
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: to be thrown out. He asked for a way out,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: and the Aushin Darai didn't answer any of his requests
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: except getting out. But he is back and forth and
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: back and forth while Tom goes from this like whispering
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: quiet song to this like thunderous, triumphant and defiant chorus.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: And then Matt does just the Sandersonist of visuals and
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: just stabs the wall and it like sprays light like.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: Light. It's super all good. And the build up to it,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: you know, like he spends like a whole page on
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: each one of the wishes. Right, So the build up
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: is really this like moment where there's his tension happening
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: and all these people are approaching, and he spends a
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: long time. You know, he thinks about I would want
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: these holes filled, and he thinks a lot about that.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: I want to be free the isid eye in the power.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: He thinks a lot about that. And I asked for
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: one more thing. I said, I wanted to be away
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: from them and back to Rudian. They gave me everything I.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: Wanted, but I had not asked for a weapon. He
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: keeps coming back to that, I didn't ask for a weapon.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: I use it as a weapon, but it that's not
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: what I wanted. I wanted a.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: Fucking key and what they sent him back to Rudian
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: to hang. But hanging was the price, not an answer
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: to his demands, because they sent him back to hide
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: the fact that he had another way back. And then
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: thus our treaty has written. Thusty agreement was made. It
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: was carved onto the weapon. He had not asked for
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: a weapon. I asked for a way out, and they
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: gave me this and that moment, then they gave me
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: this is like and I have the key, you know,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: like that's just a great moment.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: It's so climactic and triumphant and hell yes, and you
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: want to see your heroes just pull out a Dux
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: mockin and when they're backed into a corner, it's excellent.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, the whole it's a passageway out of
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: the realm of the fairy, because like being trapped in
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: the realm of the fairy is definitely like a theme
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: of fantasy and this whole thing of like, I really
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: like the way this legend fades to myth. I hate
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: his final statement. Tell the Foxes, I might please with
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: this key they gave me. Fine, you can all go
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: rot and a flaming pit of fire and ashes. Fine
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: you unwashed lumps on a pig's backside.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: No, no, have a grand bloody day. Fantastic, But you know,
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: I agree, I would have liked it to go from
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: I mighty pleased with this key they gave me, have
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: a grand bloody day. That is how I expect it
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: to go. The weird poop based insults was just like,
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: what it's funny because butts are we twelve?
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: Wait? Yeah, unwashed lumps on a pig's backside?
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: What it doesn't even like just just say you let
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: me get out have a nice day, like to have
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: a nice day. Wah whah.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: Maybe you can go rot in a flaming you know,
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: pit of fire and ashes, which again it's a little
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: too close to you can go to hell in my opinion,
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: because they don't have hell in this world.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: I like, I would have just like, looks like the
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: game can be won, Tata for now, you know, like
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: it's just it could have been a one liner, but
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: instead it's a three liner and it's no good. But
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: he's got his hat, he's the last one out. He's
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: got a pithy rejoinder. And with that we can close
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: one of the most excellent Sanderson conclusions to a book's
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: long standing foreshadow to epic rescue scene and Moraine is back.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was enjoyable. The reveal on the ashin Darai.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: I love. I know, we didn't talk about it as much,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: just other than I thought it was great. Yeah, I
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: don't know how to. Yeah, you have to read it
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: to experience that sort of great reveal.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The part where he lets the eye get taken
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: out and the part where he discovers the aushin dari
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: are both. Yeah, almost two pages of just like, just
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: go reread it. It's just good.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: This is just good.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: I can taste fate itself.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: It's just lack and the promise, the promise being fulfilled
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: of the rescuing of Moraine, the promise we were given
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: in real time. Right, it was a solid ten years
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: between the promise of Moraine's rescue and seeing it on
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: the page. Right, because I think you like from ninety
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: six is when like Book five came out ninety six
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: in that era, and then we waited to like two
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: thousand and five, two thousand and six for the Memory
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: of Light Tarzan mid Night.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: Well, but the letter is a really important midway point too, right,
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: because first we lose Moraine, then we get promised that
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: she's gonna get brought back eventually. Then Jordan dies and
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: we're like, how are we ever going to get alreadies?
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: Like this has been strung out for a while. Yes,
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: it's been eighty four years. It's been a day for sure.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: Definitely feels like it. But yeah, love that, love that bit,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: love that part of the wheel of time, like that chapter.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: Despite you know, I can criticize a few things that
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Sanderson includes, some Sanderson oni and isms. If that's a
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: word I'm.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: Making up, It is a word you're making up, that's
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: for sure. But yeah, that was that was fun. I'm
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: glad we did it as one episode. It's definitely a
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: fat recording, will be a lot shorter in the finished
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: version because all research and being wrong about stuff was removed.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: You're welcome, people, but we were never wrong about anything.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: Actually, that's not true. We've been wrong about many things
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: that made it to the final cut over time. That's
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: why the audience calls us out on stuff.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: Good audience and good life audience as well.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah we have big crowd today.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't. I wasn't checking it.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: I guess a lot of people were excited for us
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: to be yelling about the snakes and the foxes.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: Is I think that, you know, I find the biggest
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: crowds on the exciting good chapters people want to be
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: here for, like the rescue of taking out the Golm
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: and the rescue of Rain, and I've bet the last
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: battle will be a pretty big one. One's ones Jesus Christ,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: I don't even I've started to break down a memory
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: of light. I think I've said this before, but just
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: the constant POV switching makes it very difficult to figure
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: out exactly how much we're going to be able to
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: cover in a given episode. So I'm mapping it out,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: but it is very non standard when it comes to
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: a wheel of time book length, chapter length, POV length, like,
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: it's going to be a very different experience. I think
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: the podcast through it it'll be the same but different.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: But same maybe we just do it by a number
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: of pages with no adherence to like the narrative whatever.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: We just go by, like we're doing thirty pages and
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: we're just doing it in thirty page chunks until we
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: get through the whole thing or whatever.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: The last battle you mean at least, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Memory of Light. I don't know, but just specific
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: at the last battle, like maybe we just do it
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: by just sheer page count.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: Possibly, yeah, I mean, or just we tend to cover
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: like three povs a chapter, and so maybe we just
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: keep that up right and maybe you know, and if
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: we do two chapters worth, maybe we do like five
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: povs per episode.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: But for now, we should probably wrap this recording up
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: so that we can take a break so that we
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: can definitely what are other stuff?
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: All right, thank you everybody for joining us, Thanks to
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: the big crowd. Really appreciate you guys.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, really really fun to see so many familiar
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: names there. And yeah, we're getting near the end of
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: this book. We will see you next week for more
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: of this and eventually we'll let you know what our
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: schedule is in a way that doesn't sound like planning
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: on air.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, next we've got the last two chapters in
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: the next episode, and we're doing the epilogue separately, but
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: basically we're finishing the book in the next episode.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: Damn, we're wrapping up both of our podcasting books right
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: around the same time.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're both the same they'll both do the final
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: chapter I think in the same week.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool. I don't know how time works, which makes
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: sense given them we were chest to the tier of
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: Kenji where time doesn't make any sense.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now we're doing the field of Mari Lore a
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: little more tomm and Moraine and then an epilog. But
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: this was kind of the final scene. This was the
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: penultimate scene, the big final battle, the big final escape
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: was the rescue of Moraine.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: For this book, this is the climax of the book.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: We just have to do a little bit of wrap
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: up next week and then wow.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: This is the climax of the book. Yeah, definitely, okay,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, And there was a little bit
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: of a you know, of avienda going into the columns.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: That was a two chapter sort of mini peak. But
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: like we've been on the sand Lance for a while,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: there's been a lot of exciting chapters and that was
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: sort of the final one.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: Cool, well there it is. Then tune in next week
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: for the last chapters of this book.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: I guess bye.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watts
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.