Latest / Authentic Living / Embracing Cultural Competency and Diversity in the Workplace with Dr. Natasha Williams

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Embracing Cultural Competency and Diversity in the Workplace with Dr. Natasha Williams · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durgesh.
• 0:40
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:41
  It's, Rob Sand.
• 0:42
  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
• 0:44
  This week, I have doctor Natasha Williams.
• 0:47
  Hi, Natasha.
• 0:47
  How are you today?
• 0:48
  I'm fine.
• 0:49
  How are you?
• 0:50
  Good.
• 0:50
  Good.
• 0:51
  Natasha brings, a special background with her, and, I thought she would add a really a nice
• 0:57
  space to the podcast.
• 0:59
  She's a psychologist, and she, we're here with a, in Ontario, and she's a done a variety of
• 1:05
  things.
• 1:05
  I'm gonna kinda tell you a little bit about her background.
• 1:08
  She's the pasture of the board of directors of women's health and women's hands.
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  It's a community health center for black women and women of color in Toronto.
• 1:16
  And she's also a a member of the OPA or the Ontario Psychological Association Canadian
• 1:22
  Psychological Association, and the APA, which is the American Psychological Psychological
• 1:26
  Association.
• 1:27
  She is a currently a trainer with the Adler Graduate Institute, and she certifies in,
• 1:33
  people in the CBT program.
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  Chief, guest facilitates with, the Canadian Association of Mental Health.
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  Focusing on topics such as culturally adapting behavioral, cognitive behavioral therapy for
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  English speaking Caribbean people, which I've I'm gonna be very interested in, talking to her
• 1:52
  about that, seeing that's, I'm from Trinidad, and, she operates with psychological services
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  the co director of, allied psychological services, where she operates an anti preface
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  anti oppressive private practice, looking at assessment, individual group, and family
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  therapy, and corp sorry, not family therapy, just group therapy.
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  Corporate consulting, research, supervision, and training to clients with different ethnic
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  racial backgrounds, gender, and socio economic backgrounds.
• 2:25
  Wow.
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  Thank you.
• 2:29
  So, so I'm So you grew up in Dominica, which is a so did when when did you move to Canada?
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  So let's we'll go back a little bit.
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  I'm born here in Toronto.
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  I'm born in Toronto.
• 2:44
  Okay.
• 2:44
  I'm born
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  in Toronto.
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  So my parents are from the Commonwealth of Dominique.
• 2:48
  Okay.
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  So I have that experience in terms of being born here, what being raised as, you know,
• 2:55
  you're you're a Dominican.
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  That's pretty much it.
• 3:00
  So you have an opposite experience to me, and I think we I said this to you just coming on that
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  I was born in turn at T'Bago.
• 3:07
  Right.
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  Just when I was turning 17 to go to, grade 13 and then go on to to U of T.
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  Right.
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  You know, so my most of I am Trinity, like they say, right, and then coming and having to make
• 3:20
  the switch, you know, as kind of a culturating to 2 cultures, coming to Canada, having
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  traveled a fair amount prior to that, but never living anywhere else, and then starting into
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  school immediately.
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  Yes.
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  So in my family, I have that experience as that experience in regards to we brought a cousin
• 3:38
  over in around that time.
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  She was about 6 steam.
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  So I saw her transition.
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  She lived with us, and I saw her transition from, you know, being in the school system in
• 3:47
  the Caribbean, till about a certain age.
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  And then from there coming in and then the systems that were put in place to allow her to
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  transition.
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  As well into the Canadian education system.
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  So it was a it was a very interesting experience to to witness on her end as well.
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  Right.
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  Because, you know, you you don't you you can't wait to, like, on that western elements.
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  Right?
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  We were exposed to a lot of things in the islands and, of course, media and bad media and
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  that time to now is different.
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  Yes.
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  Absolutely.
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  Oh, there was a visa, you know, more than two channels.
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  Like, we had 2 and 11 than anybody sure that he's the same thing.
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  Yeah.
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  And they signed up at 11 o'clock at night, and it was always new.
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  So guess what?
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  And then he come here and you know, everything is, you know, open ended and, obviously, there
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  was a bit of diversity, but not a lot because I was in Mississauga, which is just out to
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  outside of Toronto for people.
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  And at that point, there was a bit of diversity, but not a lot.
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  And then, lots of things that were different, off the hop, like you know, their system, the
• 4:53
  the academic system was a lot more lax compared to what I was accustomed to, you know, and
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  just, you know, food and culture and customs, those types of things.
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  Now when you came, did you, did they push you back in a a back of grade kind or anything like
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  that, because I knew that was sort of the norm, back then.
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  And they did that with my cousin as well.
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  And the rationale for that was so that she could become accustomed to the Canadian
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  education system.
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  I don't know.
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  I don't know if they did the same thing with you.
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  They didn't with me, but my math I was actually having a conversation with some friends on the
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  weekend, because in in the British system, which is what I grew up in with in Trinidad, or
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  with our math, you just gave the answer.
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  The actual steps because they figured with these complex, you know, kind of concepts If
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  you got the answer, you got the answer.
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  Well, here, they wanted to see every step, so they actually fast tracked me back to kind of
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  get up to this certain standard.
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  So they made me do some, you know, catch up so I could start showing my methods.
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  And I was like, well, why do you need the method?
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  And, in Trinidad, you know, when we're taking, tests, we're not allowed to look left or right
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  or back or which are forged,
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  because eating.
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  That was a very, very big norm.
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  Here, I guess it wasn't, and I realized that quite quickly.
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  So that people would, you know, kinda pass answers and stuff like that, which was
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  something that was horrifying when I kind of experienced for the first time.
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  So that's one of those things I went, oh my goodness.
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  It was different.
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  You know, so that's one of the small things.
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  So to kinda tell me, you know, your path and what's what made you want to become a
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  psychologist?
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  Did you always know and kind of, you know, why you decided to specialize where where you did?
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  Okay.
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  Well, my path was was interesting to say the least.
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  I knew when I was about thirteen years old that I wanted to be a psychologist which is strange.
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  Just means basically as soon as I got into high school, I knew.
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  Part of it was, my mother had passed away 2 weeks before I had started high school.
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  So, and she was basically my role model.
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  Now she was not a psychologist, but to me, the way that she interacted with the community,
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  with the Caribbean community, our friends and and close family friends, it's symbolized being
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  a psychologist.
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  People would go to her and look to her for advice.
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  She was always very supportive And always, you know, was just very endearing, and always
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  wanted to see people level up to the next level.
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  So Yes.
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  We've all immigrated here.
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  You know, we're all in apartments at this point in time, but, no, we need to own property.
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  We need to keep on moving forward.
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  And if you couldn't move forward it right away, she would do things like, sell some of her her
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  company stocks because she had, she would, invest in company stocks.
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  She worked at the telephone company.
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  So if you didn't have all of your down payment for a house, no.
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  Well, she would you know, cash some of her stocks to assist, you know, a family friend to
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  make sure that they had the down payment for a house so that everyone in our circles would own
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  pretty as an example.
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  So when she passed away, I knew that I wanted to be somebody like that in the community,
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  somebody that would be able to to really, be able to to connect with the community.
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  So in that risk what I did is I decided it was gonna be a psychologist.
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  So I took all the courses that I needed to, in order to be able to get to university to be
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  able to, take the path straight.
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  So I did a bachelor of arts in in psychology.
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  My master's is in counseling psychology.
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  And then when I decided to do my doctor, I decided I wanted clinical doctorate, which
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  meant that I didn't I didn't wanna go through the academic stream.
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  I just wanted to make sure that I had the skills to be a clinician.
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  So I took a SID instead, and I went to the United States to complete my doctorate.
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  And from there, what was interesting was was that being a Canadian going to an American
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  school, the training was a bit interesting.
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  And what I noticed, especially with the cultural competency component.
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  I found it was very, I wanna I wanna say, racist almost because what they would do is a
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  lot of them a lot of the training was this is how you work with the African American client.
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  This is how you work with the Asian American client or the Native American client.
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  And I had to sit back, even though I was young and a student, I really sat there, and I was
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  like, this doesn't make sense.
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  This this I don't understand how you can group everybody into you know, into a category and
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  say that that's how you work with everybody.
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  So it really didn't make sense to me.
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  So when I came back, to Toronto.
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  I said, okay.
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  You know what?
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  I think there's more to this than the training that I received.
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  So from there, I would start to seek out opportunities to get additional research to
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  read, see what was out there in regards to, you know, how to work with And in particular, my
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  community, because I I owe I already saw growing up that mental health and mental
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  illness was just not spoken about it at all.
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  There was huge stigma behind it, a lot of shame, with that as well.
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  So I wanted to really figure out how do we then open the dialogue and be able to provide
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  resources or or information to the community that I thought that was well needed.
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  And hence, that's where I was able to, connect with, the center for addiction and mental
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  health.
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  They had a research project that was funded by citizenship and immigration Canada.
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  And that's where we were looking at how do we culturally adapt cognitive behavioral therapy
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  for the Caribbean community.
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  And then what they did is they they did it in different, languages.
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  So I was one of the primary therapists for the English speech Caribbean community.
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  They also had it in Spanish, and then they also eventually created a manual for the creole
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  French speaking community.
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  So that's where that piece came in.
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  And I was able to participate in that pilot that project, be able to create a manual, which
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  was then disseminated to community, and then also facilitate training for community members
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  that were also engaged in in, mental health.
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  And disseminating mental health services for the Caribbean community.
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  And I was still I've been training in that ever since.
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  I'm still been able to train several, practitioners in the community health center
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  settings and, and, and stuff like that.
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  So it's been a, a very fulfilling, way of of being able to disseminate to the community.
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  And that project also then took me to the Caribbean as well to be able to train
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  psychiatrists, psychologists, medical doctors at UE or another institute.
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  So I've been to Trinidad.
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  I've been to Jamaica.
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  It looks like I might be heading to Dominica as well to actually go back home, quote unquote,
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  to actually disseminate some of those services there as well.
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  So now we've been able to go to the Caribbean because they're asking for it, and they're
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  really, they're, I think they're hurting.
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  A lot of, a lot of, adversity and trauma that's been happening there, and they're looking at,
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  we can't have mental illness under the rug anymore because our community is suffering.
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  So it's it's been a great, adventure, to say the least, to be able to be able to do the
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  work, particularly in the community.
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  That that's amazing.
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  You know, growing up in, Trinidad, and, remember when we had issues, they had a
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  counselor.
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  I'm gonna call her a school counselor, and I remember you know, my, you know, my parents had
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  some issues in their marriage, and then you'd kinda, as a child, you're you're young.
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  And I thought, oh, I'll I'll go talk to her, whatever.
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  She has a clue.
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  Right?
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  It was like, you know, go talk to your mom and dad.
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  And I'm like, well, you know, they're fighting.
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  So I can talk to them.
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  And I that's where I kinda started to think that I I realized there was a know, if we want
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  to go gap in service back then.
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  And then I realized that, you know, and then you you really relied on your friends, right,
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  who are Right.
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  The 1213 like you too.
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  So, you know, you can understand the level of it.
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  And I that's where I kind of born, my sense of what I wanted to become as a psychotherapist
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  because I recognize what I needed as a, you know, a young adolescent, with someone to speak
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  to And then if it was within the family, it's like, where do you go?
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  Like, you know, you had nowhere to go.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  And a lot of times you didn't really go anywhere because you needed to keep it within
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  your four walls.
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  So, I mean, even sharing it with friends was a little bit of an issue because the societal
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  stigma was that you know, either you're good or you're crazy.
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  So if you even started to even talk about any tension or or mental health issues that that
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  you were going through, you know, you would be labeled right away.
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  So you really either kept it to yourself more.
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  You really kept it in your house.
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  If even if you did go outside quite possibly, you know, a lot of times, clergy, you know, are
• 14:31
  you religious leaders where the places that you would go to for solace?
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  So anything about, you know, going to a therapist is ecologist or or anything of that
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  nature.
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  There was no such thing.
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  You you didn't you didn't brandish your business.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  For sure.
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  Because that means you're you're telling your family business.
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  Business.
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  Yes.
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  Well, talk to you.
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  Don't talk to your family business.
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  Right?
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  That that's what they would say.
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  Right?
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  Absolutely.
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  So what I found is, well, I worked, I don't know if you probably don't know, but I when I
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  start one of my very first jobs, it was I was with victim services with the Metro Toronto
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  Police.
• 15:04
  Oh, yeah.
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  Okay.
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  I was finished my undergrad, and I was in grad school.
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  And I, you know, back then, you know, you're you're quite young.
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  I'm gonna say twenty four years old and because of I was of Caribbean descent, what they would
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  do is and I'll I'll never forget these calls because they would say, okay.
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  I've because what would happen is a lot of the, individuals that were of creating background
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  would not talk to anybody, you know, that was Canadian.
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  So they would send me in with my partner.
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  And, I'll never forget this.
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  Day 71, and I still have this memory in my brain It was a family, a Caribbean.
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  Trinidad in family, it was a murder suicide.
• 15:44
  Oh, I see.
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  And they had 6 kids.
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  You know, and, you know, what, of course, that point wasn't done very well.
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  The police, because they didn't I think have the skill.
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  They called us in which we should not have been obviously reporting, but we had to talk to all
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  children you know, to be able to support them to kind of tell them, you know, obviously we're
• 16:05
  just a bridge.
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  We didn't do any of this.
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  We just did the crises, you know, at that time.
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  And then you guys should have accordingly, but, you know, that impact, and I'm talking back in
• 16:14
  I'm talking back in 1990 to, you know, was so important because what would happen is when I
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  would go in, there would be a more openness where she's from Trinidad, you know, what
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  she's, you know, quote and quote one of us.
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  So, you know, she can understand.
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  She can understand culture.
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  She can understand why this is so difficult.
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  Those types of things.
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  So I'm just curious with with what you learned.
• 16:36
  And I I went to I did my undergrad, my, sorry, my grad school in that in, Lewis to New York.
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  So my university courses were also focused on more of the Black American identity and things.
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  And I would always say I'm Trinidadian, and my culture is a mostly a black culture, even
• 16:57
  though I'm of Easternian descent, so it's a combination Wait.
• 17:01
  Well, that is not the reality of a of a person that's African African descent of, Caribbean
• 17:06
  descent.
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  And they would go, well, no.
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  What do you mean?
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  And I'm like, it's very, very different.
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  It's not the same.
• 17:13
  And then they would, you know, try to understand what I was saying, and they, you
• 17:17
  know, a lot of times the professors would get a sense of what I was explaining.
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  Right.
• 17:22
  You know, so with you, I could see what you're saying with when you were doing your your,
• 17:26
  doctorate.
• 17:27
  So tell me with the Caribbean community now.
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  What is it that you're seeing, or not just the Caribbean, but all ethnic groups?
• 17:36
  What are you seeing now?
• 17:39
  Wonder in, that when people are coming in in corporations, you know, people seeking mental
• 17:44
  health service and things like that.
• 17:47
  Well, I I think there's an interesting shift happening is I I think that's the best way I
• 17:52
  can say it.
• 17:53
  They want more open dialogue.
• 17:56
  They, I think the communities and a lot of ethnic communities.
• 17:59
  So I, I, I could branch out in outside of not just the Caribbean.
• 18:03
  What I'm really finding is is that they're looking for dialogue.
• 18:07
  They know that, you know, I think generally where we're seeing that mental illness is being
• 18:15
  spoken about more.
• 18:18
  They'll let talk and a lot of these things which are opening up the dialogue.
• 18:23
  But I think what a lot of times they're noticing is is that that dialogue doesn't
• 18:27
  necessarily completely speak to my experience, you know, coming from an from an ethnic
• 18:33
  community, but we need to have this dialogue.
• 18:37
  So what I'm finding is is that we are having a lot of a lot of ethnic communities feeling more
• 18:42
  open to actually speak.
• 18:44
  About, mental illness.
• 18:47
  And that, even generationally, I'm sort of noticing that some of the gaps are starting to
• 18:53
  decrease So where it at, whereas it's, you know, the this generation now, I mean, I'm in
• 18:59
  my forties, but, you know, this is sort of the the twenty, twenty year old to thirty, forty
• 19:04
  year olds are, becoming more open, to actually having the dialogue coming in for for mental
• 19:11
  health or for psychotherapy, which is a huge difference in comparison to not even wanting
• 19:17
  to, to, to come out of your home.
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  Never mind going see someone who was, as a complete stranger, but even older generations
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  starting to even question what they've learned from beforehand and what they've understood
• 19:32
  culturally in terms of mental health and mental illness and starting to challenge some of the
• 19:38
  some of that, you know, long term ingrained, thought process that they would have had in
• 19:46
  regards to, what is mental illness, what who how does it really manifest is it that this
• 19:53
  person is really crazy?
• 19:54
  Or, you know, there are so many factors that are that are coming into play when someone says
• 20:00
  that they're stressed or that they're happy to cultier or that they're depressed or that
• 20:04
  they're they're they're there's, they're shying away from other people or or whatever the case
• 20:10
  may be.
• 20:11
  So the I find that there's more dialogue.
• 20:14
  What I the other thing that I'm seeing is is that a lot of people in ethnic communities are
• 20:20
  so happy to see people in the profession that are also from ethnic communities.
• 20:27
  Huge thing.
• 20:27
  So a lot of times when I have people calling into the office, they are looking for, yes, not
• 20:33
  only do I wanna discuss what is going on with me and discuss my mental health.
• 20:38
  But do you have somebody there that is also, you know, African Canadian or or or whomever
• 20:45
  because I want them to also understand.
• 20:48
  It's not just about depression.
• 20:50
  I want them to also understand what are some of the cultural implications how this, how my
• 20:58
  circumstances came to be also from a cultural vantage point.
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  So I don't wanna teach or explain this to a therapist who is not from my background as as
• 21:07
  as well meaning as they would want to be.
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  I need someone who possibly understands my journey, understands how I walk in this world,
• 21:18
  you know, coming from an ethnic community.
• 21:20
  So that's why when I talk about my practice and being from an anti oppressive framework, it
• 21:26
  goes beyond just, I treat depression, anxiety, trauma, whatever, we also have to understand
• 21:34
  some of the essence that are also in place which also perpetuate mental illness and is
• 21:40
  also a part of it.
• 21:41
  So racism, sexism, classism, how all of these things interplay in terms of somebody's
• 21:48
  presentation.
• 21:49
  So when they are looking for somebody, they're like, yeah, listen.
• 21:52
  I I really need someone who also understands how that oppression and oppressive frameworks
• 21:59
  have also contributed to, my my mental illness or my problems.
• 22:05
  So there is an openness.
• 22:07
  We still have a long way to go.
• 22:09
  So, you know, it's it's interesting, right, because I'm I'm in the Niagara Falls, and I
• 22:14
  moved here.
• 22:15
  So it was very it's it's now becoming a bit more diverse, but it's still not.
• 22:19
  Right.
• 22:20
  So a lot of my clients are Canadians.
• 22:23
  Right?
• 22:24
  And I'll give you an example of something that I, you know, because I trained, you know, I'm
• 22:28
  my graduate degree was back in 1994, moved here and kind of went into corporate consulting and
• 22:34
  then and then went back to practice.
• 22:36
  And I
• 22:37
  I remember I had a, you know, a biracial, person who was a I work with trauma and Right.
• 22:43
  She'd come in and we were, you know, I was just, you know, supervising as a clinical
• 22:46
  supervisor, you get it, and we're talking, and she was of Chinese and Canadian descent visibly
• 22:51
  beautiful woman.
• 22:52
  And but she looked.
• 22:53
  You could tell she was a bit Chinese and So I was de we were deconstructing kinda where she
• 22:58
  was at and, you know, kinda, you know, looking at the backgrounds and stuff like that.
• 23:02
  I had done it that briefly, but I the question that I was remiss in asking was, what were the
• 23:09
  cultural implications that she may have been impacted by and how that may have impacted her
• 23:15
  self esteem or self worse, a lot of the other things with the trauma.
• 23:19
  And my clinical supervisor said to me, and I'm pretty astute.
• 23:22
  She goes, do you think about that?
• 23:25
  And I go, do I?
• 23:27
  And I said, not consciously.
• 23:30
  She said, but you're you've gotta understand your way of presenting to the world and what
• 23:36
  you bring coming from the Caribbean, having being exposed where the president's and maybe,
• 23:41
  you know, your doctor and your dentist were all a different color.
• 23:45
  You saw the you see the world in a different way.
• 23:48
  And I'm And, no, I'm struck.
• 23:50
  Right?
• 23:50
  I'm like, I'm a pretty astute person.
• 23:52
  And then she said to me, what was her reality going up here?
• 23:57
  Back in, you know, obviously, next session, we start to talk, and she talked a lot about
• 24:01
  bullying because she didn't look wide enough, and she didn't look Chinese enough.
• 24:05
  And types of things and, how her reality was that you also had to struggle to fit and, you
• 24:11
  know, you know, I'm not Canadian but I'm half Canadian, but I'm half Chinese and those types
• 24:16
  of things.
• 24:16
  So it's interesting when you talk about from your framework, you know, deconstructing, what
• 24:23
  that's that reality is in someone's mind and then how it might be presenting with the
• 24:28
  problem or the issue that they're they're coming with.
• 24:31
  Absolutely.
• 24:32
  You
• 24:32
  know?
• 24:32
  So I think very, very fascinating.
• 24:34
  Now with with people coming into corporations, I wanna chat and and pivot a little bit there
• 24:41
  and tell me how our core if we're talking about, you know, you know, diversity in in in
• 24:48
  therapy.
• 24:49
  And and I'm sure I know your practice.
• 24:51
  I'm I'm gonna assume there's several practices throughout the GTA, but I don't know.
• 24:56
  Like yours, what about corporations?
• 24:59
  What are they doing get getting ready, for the influx of what we know is, you know, with the
• 25:04
  diversity in Canada or even in the US.
• 25:08
  I think the corporations, it's it's very interesting.
• 25:11
  I find that a lot of them aim to get ready by, you know, having diversity training for
• 25:19
  example, and what does that look like?
• 25:24
  But I I think it's fascinating.
• 25:25
  A lot of times when you put when you say diversity training, a lot of times it it it I
• 25:32
  don't I it doesn't end up being I think as comprehensive as it needs to be.
• 25:38
  A lot of it is just okay.
• 25:40
  Very surface.
• 25:41
  Let let let's let's put it that way.
• 25:43
  So it's like, okay, be prepared.
• 25:46
  There's gonna be, you know, there's there's people in this, you know, that are gonna be
• 25:49
  part of our team, but are gonna be from all different backgrounds and religions.
• 25:52
  And and, you know, we have to be encompassing and and and mindful of all of these, all of the
• 25:58
  all of the different ethnic groups.
• 25:59
  I think a lot of times what corporations don't necessarily understand is is that within that
• 26:06
  corporation, there's there's still continues to be a systemic racism that permeates through
• 26:14
  through that, that organization.
• 26:17
  And a lot of times it is seen through microaggressions.
• 26:21
  And and microaggressions meaning, you know, a lot of the the the the things that are being
• 26:27
  said or some of the nuances that are being said to other, people from ethnic communities that
• 26:33
  over time become very multilayered, like traumas.
• 26:40
  So I have a client, for example, who, you know, for her, it was every day, the the little
• 26:46
  things that are that were being said.
• 26:48
  The spaces that she was not allowed to take, you know, being in an office, but basically
• 26:55
  saying that, you know, why are you why are you sitting here?
• 26:59
  You know, this is, this is you're not supposed to be needing here or or something.
• 27:02
  So, again, her feeling like that she wasn't allowed to take the same space, that some of
• 27:07
  her her Caucasian colleagues could take.
• 27:10
  Or if she would say anything, oh, here comes the angry black woman.
• 27:15
  So not being able to express herself or or to state her opinion for fear of, well, she's
• 27:21
  this, you know, tall, you know, very commanding black woman.
• 27:27
  So she's very intimidating.
• 27:28
  So a lot of the a lot of these nuances that would occur in these spaces where you then
• 27:35
  don't feel that you can be yourself, or and be who you are.
• 27:40
  It's like, I cannot be I cannot be my ethnic self.
• 27:44
  I have to conform to what this either European or Caucasian or westernized paradigm is so that
• 27:52
  I can fit in.
• 27:53
  And to do that, that means I cannot be my authentic self.
• 27:57
  I have to put on a mask.
• 27:59
  So that I can not only fit in, but then so that I could thrive.
• 28:03
  So where some of that difficulty lies, it was where a lot of corporations don't understand a
• 28:07
  lot of those underlying mechanisms that are occurring, which are then intimidating a lot of
• 28:15
  of people that are working in those workplaces that, are aiming to either get ahead or to
• 28:21
  actually have a space where they feel safe.
• 28:23
  There's there's a lack of safety that a lot of, people from ethnic communities that are working
• 28:28
  in these organizations feel that they do not have.
• 28:31
  Because they cannot be their authentic self.
• 28:34
  I have one client that basically says, I cannot I I feel like I can't be a my my black self.
• 28:40
  For fear of coming across as too too aggressive.
• 28:44
  And I'm like, well, what does that mean?
• 28:46
  She's like, Well, I, you know, if I have an opinion, I'd like to voice it.
• 28:50
  But then when I do voice that opinion, I come across as the angry black woman.
• 28:54
  So then what I usually do is just not say anything.
• 28:58
  So that I
• 28:58
  very stifling, which is very stifling.
• 29:01
  Very stifling.
• 29:02
  And I think a lot of, corporations, again, don't understand that that, underlying
• 29:09
  foundational mechanism that I think is occurring within, within organizations or
• 29:15
  corporations, which are causing your your your your workforce to not be as productive because
• 29:23
  they're they're not be able they're not able to bring their authentic self.
• 29:26
  Now mind you, I'm not talking about bullying or or being aggressive, literally.
• 29:32
  But if I cannot bring my authentic self or have my voice for fear of being labeled or
• 29:38
  typecasted or or not being able to see as to fit, then I I think, you know, your workforce
• 29:45
  can function at a 100% because you're asking people who are from ethnic communities to
• 29:50
  conform to what you believe is either Westernized or European paradigm is.
• 29:55
  And that, I think, ends up being a huge problem, which will impact productivity.
• 30:00
  For sure.
• 30:00
  So if you're saying, you know, we have a eurocentric frame.
• 30:05
  Right.
• 30:05
  It's so in bread and obviously has been, you know, here since the inception of Canada,
• 30:09
  right, less, So to kind of, you know, I'll I'll give you an example.
• 30:13
  So I married someone from Canada.
• 30:15
  And, so picture this.
• 30:18
  I'm a little you know, town here of 7000 people and I show up.
• 30:23
  Yes.
• 30:24
  I'm twenty two years old.
• 30:25
  So we're talking, you know, 30 years ago.
• 30:28
  And, you know, I and then people weren't sure where to put me, and I think I may have shared
• 30:33
  this with you over lunch.
• 30:33
  You're like, oh, I think she's Jamaican.
• 30:36
  Which is pretty good English.
• 30:39
  And, you know, and that that was the extent of it until people got to know me, and they And
• 30:44
  and, my ex husband at the time said he overheard his mother saying, well, she speaks
• 30:49
  proper English.
• 30:51
  She says she's quite articulate and things like that because it was it was it was a it was an
• 30:57
  ignorance.
• 30:58
  And, I mean, mind you, I could say I was one once my my community got to know me, I'm
• 31:02
  completely embrace here.
• 31:03
  It's a small little town, like like an island that I grew up in, and I love it.
• 31:08
  But at the beginning, it was the fact that it was different, and people are afraid oftentimes
• 31:14
  of different.
• 31:15
  And, and then, you know, they I would say, you know, people would say something is simple, and
• 31:20
  this silly, but I'm like, where is Trinidad?
• 31:24
  And I'd be like, well, you know what the equator is?
• 31:27
  And, you know, and then I would say, you know, the most shoveling Caribbean island just above
• 31:31
  the equator and then there's South America.
• 31:33
  Oh, because a lot of times people wouldn't know where it was or things like that.
• 31:37
  So Sometimes you're so right.
• 31:39
  It's that not knowing that people would and they would be afraid to ask the question, like,
• 31:45
  oh, you know, did you you know, did you grow up in a normal home?
• 31:49
  I said, well, yeah, I grew up in a home like the one I live in now.
• 31:52
  Oh, okay.
• 31:54
  What was your school system like?
• 31:55
  Well, it was British.
• 31:57
  Oh, okay.
• 31:58
  It was very strict.
• 31:59
  And, you know, and then then again, so I it's interesting when you say these things about
• 32:03
  microaggressions, and people don't know and how they proceed.
• 32:08
  Per perpetuates probably that, you know, that whole thing of because search, that person's
• 32:14
  different.
• 32:15
  That must mean they something, you know, they they won't fit.
• 32:19
  And then what's interesting is what a lot of people will do is try to find a category to put
• 32:24
  you in.
• 32:24
  And a lot of times, that is for their comfort.
• 32:27
  You know, it's like, okay.
• 32:28
  Let me see.
• 32:29
  She looks like this.
• 32:31
  But, yes, she speaks this way.
• 32:33
  So, you know, let me try and figure out what category I could put her in, but that is for
• 32:38
  their comfort and and to ease their curiosity to be more than anything else.
• 32:42
  Right?
• 32:42
  And then once I could create this category, okay, this is where we'll fit her in for now.
• 32:47
  Right?
• 32:48
  Until something else comes up and you're like, oh, wait a minute.
• 32:51
  You know, again, she's she's quite articulate because god forbid, somebody from an ethnic
• 32:55
  community cannot cannot speak.
• 32:58
  Right?
• 32:58
  And god forbid an accent means that you are not articulate.
• 33:01
  Right.
• 33:02
  Right?
• 33:02
  You need to speak the the queen's English.
• 33:05
  You know, to be seen as articulate.
• 33:06
  But the minute you have an accent, then all of a sudden, the, you know, an accent means you're
• 33:11
  not articulate.
• 33:13
  So again, those in and of itself are then those microaggressions in regards to how close is
• 33:18
  this person to urocentric views or Eurocentric standards.
• 33:23
  And if they're not close enough, they're seen as different and other and not good enough.
• 33:28
  So I'm I'm curious because when you're saying that this diversity training and I, you know,
• 33:34
  we've all been there in those, and, you know, it's we're hitting the surface.
• 33:39
  I would think, you know, from what I've been exposed to in my corporate consulting, that
• 33:44
  that surface just it just touches the top.
• 33:47
  And
• 33:48
  Right.
• 33:48
  There's certain things that systemically need to be addressed for us to start having, I'm
• 33:53
  gonna call it real authentic connection and and conversations about work.
• 33:59
  Right, about productivity, about being present, about being, you know, available, but not
• 34:04
  producing at your, you know, at at a 100%.
• 34:07
  So what kind of things are being suggested to companies that you see now or what things
• 34:13
  should be, should companies or people listening in senior management to this podcast be
• 34:18
  thinking about looking at it in reference to get themselves up, on a metric to to get more,
• 34:25
  I'm gonna use it the word culturally aware.
• 34:28
  Right.
• 34:28
  And I and I I appreciate that because I know we talk about other cultural sensitivity and and
• 34:32
  all of the these terms and I I find that to me, those are just buzzwords.
• 34:38
  They don't necessarily describe, I think, what would possibly be needed.
• 34:43
  For for for corporations.
• 34:46
  I think the first pieces is that the corporation has to be open and willing enough
• 34:53
  to have the uncomfortable conversation.
• 34:57
  And a lot of times the diversity training is, again, for comfort.
• 35:02
  Yeah.
• 35:03
  It's to say it's to actually say, look.
• 35:06
  We've had this diversity training.
• 35:08
  Right.
• 35:09
  But let us have the uncomfortable conversation, and that and that will allow us to go deeper.
• 35:15
  It's to understand how the corporation could then be perpetuating that systemic racism.
• 35:23
  And what does that system what does that systemic racism look like?
• 35:27
  And how does your company possibly perpetuate that?
• 35:32
  Right?
• 35:33
  Because I think a lot of times lack of awareness and ignorance is what fuels systemic
• 35:37
  racism.
• 35:39
  You know, if the if the backward facing customer is now becoming a different colored
• 35:44
  face or a different religious space, person coming in, your customer coming in is all
• 35:51
  potentially ethically different also.
• 35:54
  Absolutely.
• 35:55
  So it's like a double it's like a double edge kind of conundrum because if, let's say, myself
• 36:00
  or you go to work into that corporation and people don't know much about us, They tip 2
• 36:05
  around us.
• 36:06
  They make assumptions, all those things, and we're and I'm on guard.
• 36:10
  So I'm gonna be, you know, there's gonna be a lot of presenteeism because I'm gonna guard it,
• 36:14
  kinda trying to do my job.
• 36:16
  I'm not really productive.
• 36:17
  And and your people coming into your corporation and whatever elements, they're also
• 36:22
  potentially different how are they perceiving your frontline or your middle management?
• 36:28
  That's it.
• 36:29
  That's it.
• 36:29
  Because I think a lot of times what a lot of corporations don't realize is how they present
• 36:33
  them.
• 36:33
  Themselves.
• 36:34
  You know, if you're, you know, top tier or or, you know, your management and everything does
• 36:40
  not represent the community that you're trying to reach stomach racism that is going on within
• 36:51
  your company.
• 36:52
  So I mean, it is important for them to understand how their hiring practices how they
• 36:58
  present themselves in terms of acquiring business and and and that sort of thing.
• 37:03
  How does that impact they're a bottom line because we live in a diverse, you know,
• 37:10
  society, and it diversed.
• 37:11
  I mean, yes, I'm in Toronto, but that doesn't mean you know, Toronto is the be all end all,
• 37:16
  but Toronto, there's what, over 3,500,000, you know, individuals widely diverse.
• 37:23
  And if you're wanting to tap into that, but also understanding that the the forward face of
• 37:29
  your company is primarily caucasian.
• 37:33
  Right.
• 37:34
  But it it's not going to it it's not gonna be helpful, and it'll actually it actually will
• 37:40
  will reduce your productivity because you have people from other ethnically diverse
• 37:44
  communities that would not want to buy into your product or wanna come to you or or
• 37:50
  whatever the case may be.
• 37:51
  So you also have to look at what face are you presenting you know, as the forward face of
• 37:57
  your company.
• 37:59
  And and that sometimes is the difficult discussion that they, you know, they'll say,
• 38:02
  well, we hire so and such or whatever.
• 38:04
  I go, what what how does your company present itself?
• 38:09
  You know, do I look at your your your, not only your CEOs, but your management and and whatever
• 38:15
  case maybe, and do I see ethnically diverse, individuals?
• 38:20
  And I and I also ask a company to look at some of the terminology they use.
• 38:26
  A lot of times, we'll talk about ethnically different, and I said different in comparison
• 38:29
  to whom.
• 38:31
  That's good points.
• 38:32
  Right?
• 38:33
  So we have to look at that.
• 38:34
  And that's why I use ethnically diverse versus ethnically different because when we talk about
• 38:40
  We're looking at something that is the norm and everything outside of that is something
• 38:44
  different, which means we're still putting the Eurocentric views as sort of the the top or the
• 38:50
  main state and everything after that has to be judged by by the eurocentric view.
• 38:56
  So I go, what terminology are you using in in in your materials in in sort of how you present
• 39:03
  yourself as a company in the training that you have received.
• 39:07
  Right?
• 39:08
  So a lot of that then we we have to get into the uncomfortable conversations, which a a lot
• 39:15
  of times companies or organizations do not want to do.
• 39:20
  But if you're able to do that and start that discussion, you can then start to, peel back.
• 39:27
  And not only peel back.
• 39:28
  I think it's, just being able to unravel some of these, these, these systems that have been
• 39:38
  in place for a long time.
• 39:39
  So it's it's not a one conversation thing.
• 39:42
  It's something that is not gonna also happen overnight as well.
• 39:45
  But as you start entering in these uncomfortable, conversations, what you end up
• 39:51
  having is the place that is going to be more open to have a ethnically diverse, individuals
• 39:58
  and, and, and people, individuals within within the, within the organization, which means your
• 40:05
  organization will be able then to reach out to more people.
• 40:08
  Which is then going to be increase your productivity.
• 40:11
  So one will be get the other be get the other.
• 40:13
  Right?
• 40:14
  So attraction, because if you think of the, you know, the millennials coming up and, you know,
• 40:19
  all the the your talent more than likely is gonna be that that combination or ratio of you
• 40:26
  know, ethnically diverse, you will get a combination of how are you gonna attract them?
• 40:30
  And even if you do attract them, how are you gonna keep them?
• 40:34
  Absolutely.
• 40:34
  Right.
• 40:35
  So that's it.
• 40:36
  And, you know,
• 40:37
  feeling uncomfortable in in in that setting.
• 40:39
  You can you can get me, but how do you maintain me?
• 40:42
  Right.
• 40:43
  Thanks for sure.
• 40:43
  You know, how do you maintain your client, or how do you maintain your employee?
• 40:47
  If I'm not feeling safe, in in in my workplace.
• 40:52
  I don't know how long I'm gonna stay there for.
• 40:55
  And if I am staying there, how productive am I, in a space where I don't feel safe or I don't
• 41:01
  feel comfortable?
• 41:02
  Well, I think, you know, you made a a valid, valid point that if I'm stifling, as any human
• 41:08
  being, and we know this as a psychologist and a psychotherapist, that eventually that stuff has
• 41:13
  to it has to find a way out Right?
• 41:16
  You know, so suppression will take forms in more arbitrations, more conflict in the
• 41:21
  workplace, more lost days, incidental absences, harassment, all those things that are the
• 41:28
  metrics that you look for, how productive are you at at work, and your bottom line is gonna
• 41:33
  be on the increase and just from going through something as simple as, simple but not easy.
• 41:40
  How what does it take to meet every individual safe at work regardless of what background
• 41:45
  they're coming from.
• 41:46
  Absolutely.
• 41:47
  And then again, a lot of times from a corporate viewpoint, when we talk about long of
• 41:51
  productivity, the biggest thing that contributes to loss of productivity is mental
• 41:57
  illness.
• 41:58
  So if your workplace or your workforce is not well, anxiety, depression, those types of
• 42:04
  things, that is going to directly impact your bottom line.
• 42:07
  So it is, it is of the utmost importance not for you to do diversity training and, and all
• 42:12
  of these types of things, but to address, you know, ethnic diversity within your workplace.
• 42:20
  For sure.
• 42:20
  And I think it's, you know, from a perspective, looking at mental wellness.
• 42:25
  And I also say it's mental wellness all the way up to, you know, potentially people that have
• 42:29
  to go off because they're, you know, there's definite psychiatric concerns But, really, we
• 42:34
  know that if people are more connected, they're able to recognize their stress response if
• 42:38
  they're able to do that.
• 42:40
  They're able to internally take responsibility for what they need to take out within care of
• 42:44
  it within themselves.
• 42:45
  If they're recognizing it bigger than them, they go to who they need to to get the
• 42:48
  appropriate support so they could stay at work.
• 42:51
  Right.
• 42:51
  If all those things aren't in place, then, you know, obviously, things are gonna fall down and
• 42:56
  it's gonna impact, you know, what what it's causing the company just overall.
• 43:00
  Absolutely.
• 43:01
  Yeah.
• 43:02
  So now I, I know you have a course coming up, which is a bit of a pivot.
• 43:10
  So I want them just before we step off the, the elements on diversity, if that there's any,
• 43:18
  managers or even C suite people that are listening that are thinking, What should what
• 43:25
  how do I decide where we are and if I could make an impact, what would be one thing that
• 43:28
  they could do or, you know, to be able to kind of gauge where they are as a company.
• 43:34
  Oh, that's a really good question.
• 43:40
  I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, a lot of times, a lot of times, I think organizations
• 43:48
  pull in a lot of stats.
• 43:50
  A lot because you're always looking at statistics and always looking at, you know,
• 43:53
  where your company where your company is at this point in time, how productive it is the is
• 43:59
  the company.
• 44:00
  So a lot of times, the numbers
• 44:02
  Yeah.
• 44:02
  Themselves do not lie.
• 44:04
  Yeah.
• 44:04
  And if you're noticing, for example, that your company your company's statistics are stagnant,
• 44:11
  or or not necessarily growing exponentially, there could be a clue there in regards to,
• 44:21
  productivity and the culture, or, you know, checking the pulse of your your your department
• 44:33
  because is it just that, you know, Is it one for one numbers, or is there something going on
• 44:40
  here where you have to check the wellness of your, of your group, of your team?
• 44:46
  Yeah.
• 44:46
  So a lot of times, the first place to go is is and again, a lot of times managers will do this
• 44:51
  is sort of looking at the statistics, sort of, productivity of the company.
• 44:54
  And the productivity will speak volumes.
• 44:57
  And if it's just that, okay, is it flat?
• 44:59
  Is there is there actually a decline in productivity?
• 45:02
  And it's not necessarily that you have to, you know, try to get forced them to do more versus
• 45:09
  what check the pulse or how sick is is the, is the is the group.
• 45:17
  Is there a is there a unwillingness for lack of a better way of saying it Is there something
• 45:22
  that is unwell with the team that we can address, that we can address a bit further?
• 45:27
  And then from there, Again, stats and all of that is one thing.
• 45:33
  A lot of times, from what I have seen with with some of the clients that I've worked with
• 45:37
  there's an absolute disconnect between management and staff.
• 45:41
  Mhmm.
• 45:42
  And that absolute disconnect, really causes, again, a lot of the, the lack of productivity.
• 45:49
  So a lot of it is then gonna be how do managers connect And it's human connection.
• 45:55
  It's not just, okay, you're not meeting these numbers or whatever the case may be.
• 45:59
  A lot of it is human connection.
• 46:01
  Yeah.
• 46:01
  You know, what is going on?
• 46:04
  You know, how are you faring?
• 46:05
  How are you feeling?
• 46:07
  What are some of the things that you may need individually to thrive?
• 46:11
  So it's taking a pulse of your not only just the organization, but even if we go to the
• 46:16
  management team level, being able to be able to take that pulse.
• 46:22
  And from there, open up the dialogue to provide whatever is needed for that, that, that
• 46:28
  individual or the team, to allow the team to get well.
• 46:33
  A lot of it is, like, a a a sickness and how to sickness and wellness kind of, kind of.
• 46:38
  I don't feel
• 46:39
  like metrics is, like, from early intervention all the way up to prevention all the way up to
• 46:46
  keeping somebody at work, which, you know, they, you know, we know with, long term
• 46:50
  disability claims, you know, if you don't manage people well and the stressors, you know,
• 46:55
  it's not always that they've had it in their family.
• 46:57
  It it may be that some people have But if if people aren't able to, to, you know, get what
• 47:03
  they need, so they, they, they implode somewhere.
• 47:08
  Exactly.
• 47:09
  And I think also managers have to look at turnover.
• 47:12
  Yeah.
• 47:13
  I think that's a huge thing as well.
• 47:15
  And a lot of times, they don't you have to look at your statistics in terms of how how many
• 47:20
  times has your has your team or your staff turned over?
• 47:24
  If there is a high turnover rate, you may also have to look at the the culture of your team.
• 47:32
  And what is contributing to that as well.
• 47:36
  And again, they're they're in and of itself may lie some of the answers in regards to, you
• 47:43
  know, what do I need to, to, to put in, put in place to decrease that turnover.
• 47:50
  There's something here that is causing that.
• 47:52
  What can I put into place to to, not only increase productivity, but increase the
• 47:58
  wellness of that workplace environment so that you have a lower instance of turnover?
• 48:04
  Yeah.
• 48:04
  That makes so much sense, Natasha, just kinda what is your pulse?
• 48:08
  And then based on just human connection again, you're gonna get some of the answers and then
• 48:15
  know what you need to start applying so to to be able to make change.
• 48:19
  And, of course, change doesn't happen overnight.
• 48:22
  Absolutely not.
• 48:22
  But it's starting to take the steps necessary.
• 48:25
  Absolutely.
• 48:26
  So I know we need to, start wrapping up, but I know you do have a course coming up.
• 48:31
  So I would would like you to tell people where, what it's, maybe what it's about and where they
• 48:37
  can get ahold of you I'm sure companies and executives that are listening, would be quite
• 48:42
  interested in reaching out to.
• 48:44
  So if
• 48:44
  you let
• 48:45
  them know about your website, that would be fantastic.
• 48:47
  Okay.
• 48:48
  So that's great.
• 48:48
  So, I do have a course that's coming up.
• 48:51
  It's an online course.
• 48:52
  So anybody can, you know, can hop on and, and be able to participate.
• 48:57
  So the course is called reclaiming your superwoman, and it's how to find your voice
• 49:02
  after divorce.
• 49:04
  So the reason that this course came about was part of it is is sort of my personal journey as
• 49:09
  well, going through a divorce myself.
• 49:12
  And having difficulty initially, how do I navigate that?
• 49:15
  But then how do I get to a space of finding my authentic voice?
• 49:19
  And being able to to speak my own truth in the midst of that without feeling stifled.
• 49:26
  So in regards to that.
• 49:28
  The the course, again, it's online.
• 49:30
  We're gonna be starting it in April, 1st week in April.
• 49:34
  My, my info is, my email is in full, info at doctor Natashawilliams.com.
• 49:41
  People can feel free to reach out to me there.
• 49:44
  And from there, what would I usually do is we'll book a 30 minute consultation in which
• 49:48
  we'll start to discuss a little bit more of what some of your issues are and what you
• 49:53
  would, ideally like to see happen in regards to, being able to reclaim your voice and being
• 49:59
  able to to move forward.
• 50:01
  When you look at things such as the corporate lease that a lot of women have in regards to
• 50:06
  themselves and particularly in a, in a relationship and if the relationship is is sort
• 50:11
  of unraveling.
• 50:13
  And what needs to happen from a clinical perspective.
• 50:17
  I also use a bit of faith as well.
• 50:19
  So it's a clinical perspective faith in my own personal experience that have been curated into
• 50:24
  into this online course to help a woman find her voice and be able to live her own life and
• 50:30
  her own truth.
• 50:31
  No compromise.
• 50:32
  So where has a lot of this compromising come from?
• 50:34
  Where has a lot of these poor beliefs and values come from?
• 50:37
  And how do we get to a space where we can start challenging that?
• 50:41
  But then also being able to, what I usually call the term how do you become comfortable
• 50:47
  with being uncomfortable?
• 50:49
  Mhmm.
• 50:50
  And a lot of times, we we run away from discomfort and what we do is then compromise.
• 50:56
  And then we're unable to be there often to self.
• 50:59
  So how do we get to a space in which we can then be comfortable with being uncomfortable
• 51:04
  and be able to then change the trajectory of our lives, to be able to then walk in our own
• 51:09
  truth, no compromise.
• 51:11
  So I'll I'll do a 30 minute consultation.
• 51:13
  And then from there, I, anyone would be able to register for the master class.
• 51:20
  And it's a 4 week introductory math master class.
• 51:22
  And from there, you would then be eligible for I do have a more intensive 3 month 6 month
• 51:28
  program as well once you complete the introductory master class.
• 51:31
  And if you wanna continue to work with me, to continue along that journey.
• 51:37
  Awesome.
• 51:37
  Well, what I will do, for, Natasha is I will include a link.
• 51:43
  So you can just check the bottom of, the podcast, and there will be a link that you can
• 51:48
  just go right on.
• 51:49
  And, you know, it sounds like an amazing, amazing class.
• 51:53
  And the opportunity to work with you as a clinical psychologist with all the things that
• 51:58
  you're bringing with you, along with the faith based element to things having been there
• 52:02
  myself.
• 52:03
  You know, you did that importance of spending that time taking care of yourself when you're
• 52:08
  going through something like this is is very, very key.
• 52:11
  So, again, thanks so much, Natasha, for spending your time.
• 52:15
  Thank you so much, Roxanne, for having me.
• 52:17
  I appreciate it.
• 52:18
  Awesome.
• 52:19
  So for for for leaders, I want you to really think about, how are you being aware of the
• 52:26
  needs of who is in front of you?
• 52:28
  When in any realm, obviously today we're talking a bit about, diversity, but just
• 52:34
  overall, how are you ensuring that you know who is in front of you and addressing what their
• 52:39
  needs are.
• 52:41
  Like Natasha said, if we feel safe at work, we, we are completely on, and we're gonna be most
• 52:47
  productive because I feel safe and secure.
• 52:49
  And I'm just gonna relish my space because I generally all of us wanna do really, really
• 52:55
  well at work.
• 52:56
  So to keep that in mind, and if that's something that's not occurring, to start to ask
• 53:00
  yourself, What is it that I need to do to to get connected to the pulse of what's needed
• 53:04
  within my organization that impacts the bottom line?
• 53:08
  So again, thanks again for tuning in, and we'll chat with you soon.
• 53:12
  If you're needing more information on me, you need to go to roxanderhodge.com, and, we can
• 53:18
  connect.
• 53:19
  Take care, everyone.
• 53:22
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 53:27
  healthy change.
• 53:28
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne visit
• 53:35
  Roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 53:39
  We'll see you next time.
• 53:40
  An authentic living with Roxanne.