Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Self-Care without Candles: Redefining wellness for parents

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Self-Care without Candles: Redefining wellness for parents · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: I'm Emily Ostar. This is Parent Data, and today I'm
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: talking to Poja Lakshman about her new book, Real Self Care.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: When we hear the phrase self care as parents and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: especially as moms, I think what comes to mind is
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: taking an hour to have a massage or lay in
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: a bath, and the wellness industry the world has somehow
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: convinced us that both that should be enough to take
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: care of ourselves and also that it's to some extent
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: a bit selfish. How could you possibly take an hour
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: away just to lay around in a bath or God
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: forbid to use the bathroom in quiet peace? Is that
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: self care? Pooping alone? Pooja's book is about self care
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: as both more selfish and more important. It's about taking
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: care of ourselves as a way to invest in our families,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: to invest in the people we love and in showing
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: up for them in the best way. And it's about
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: drawing really clear boundaries and saying what is it that
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I need? And what I need probably isn't just an
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: hour in a bath with a sided candle. Maybe what
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I need is more time to myself or more time
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: to invest in the things I love. And once we
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: recognize that we can start making choices for our families,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: for ourselves that prioritize that real, deep self care. The reality,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and this comes up all the time in this book,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: is that what is your self care.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Is super subjective.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: It's not a candle for everybody. It's the things that
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: you need to take care of your own mental health.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: And so this conversation, although it has some data we
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: talk about the book, it also gets pretty personal. We
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: talk about the pieces of self care that work for us.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I hope that for you something sparks here to think
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: about the self care that you can prioritize for yourself.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: After the break my conversation with Pooja Lakshman, Pooja, thank
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: you so much for joining me. I'm extremely excited to talk.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Before we get going, can you just introduce yourself?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Well, I'm first of all, I'm excited to be here.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: I am doctor Pooja Lakshman. I am a board certifed
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: psychiatrist and the author of the book Real Self Care,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: which just came out, And I'm a mom of a
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: gosh almost sixteen month old at the time of this recording.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Time goes fast.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: My kids are twelve and eight so I feel like
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I sort of know what it is like to be there,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: but you rapidly forget. Yes, so we're going to talk
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: about self care. We're going to talk about your book.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I don't like the phrase self care in general. I
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: don't like it in the context of parenting. I don't
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: like it in the context of being a mom. But
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: twenty percent of women are diagnosed with postpartum depression.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: That surely understates the true burden.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: And throughout the life cycle, from the beginning, from when
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: our kids are older, there is this incredibly hefty care
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: burden which more often falls on moms. I wrote something
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: a few months ago about a study which basically just
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: proved what we already know, which is like schools always.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Call mom rather than dad.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And so these care burdens, the household labor burdens, the
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: invisible work burdens, however you want to call them, fall
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: disproportionately on women.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: They also fall on men. I mean they fall on
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: they fall on all parents.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: And in the past several years, I actually think there's
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: been more recognition of a lot of these things, more
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: recognition of disparities in these burdens, more recognition of things
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: like postpartum depression.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: But when people.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Recognize this, there is then a lot of discussion of
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: self care and how the way to address this. One
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: important way to address this is to engage in self
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: care and on Instagram.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Self care is like a spot day.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Like make sure you're taking care of yourself and taking
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: a spot day, getting a manicure, get like a scent
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: of candle.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: It could have this kind of scent.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: But your book is titled Real Self Care, and so
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: is real self care Finding the right scent.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: For your candle. I think you know my answer to this.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: It's it's mint, right, is your answer. If you get
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the correct mint from the Yankee candle.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Store, You're good. You'll be good to go. You're totally fine. Great.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So the sub subtitle of the book is Crystals, Cleanses,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: and bubble Baths not included. And I actually, you know,
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: kind of pushed hard with my publisher too, because you know,
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: it makes it a really long title, which is not
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: great for Olivia. But I was like, no, this is
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: really important because this book is basically a culmination of
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: kind of a decade of professional and personal experience in
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: my own life of the ways in which WO woo
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: wellness fails us, you know, And I spend a lot
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: of time upfront in the book talking about how the
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: real problem is our social structures. I wrote a piece
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: for The New York Times back in twenty twenty one,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: so like height of the Pandemic called this is Betrayal
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: not burnout, talking about moms who work outside the home
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: and how really it's about public policy. It's about you know,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: paid leave, it's about affordable childcare, access to good health insurance, right,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: and it's not our fault that we get seduced by
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: all of this because you know, like, let's just say,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: in my profession psychiatry, mental health, it is so hard
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: to find a therapist. It is so hard to find
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: a therapist. And so you know, if you call your
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: insurance company, you know, the work is like sitting on
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: hold for two hours to get a whole list of
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: therapists who potentially say they're taking new patients. But then
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: you actually call all of them and they're all like, no,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: we're not. So when Instagram gives you ads for like
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: this pretty beige branded vitamin that's going to cure your
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: stress and that's delivered in twenty four hours and arrives
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: at your doorstop like of course, you know.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's interesting.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I think that there's this distinction between like immediate, so
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: some combination of immediacy and sort of short termness that
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: feels like very seductive in this self care space, right
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Like I could get it right now, it would be
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: easy to do. I could do it once. I could
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: go get this massage, I could get these pills that
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: are supposed to you know, relax me or whatever. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: that that in fact, like having a structure in your life,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: having put in time, which to be fair, we may
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: not have, but the value of putting in time to
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: think about how to structure your life so it doesn't
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: feel like, God, if only I had some pills to
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: fix how terrible I feel.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I should say, like I prescribe tidepressants all
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: the time, I actually take antidepressants.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: This isn't like anti med.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: No, no, when I said don't take pills, I just
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: met like a supplement that says it's gonna, like, you know,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: give you some kind of like woo wo happiness, not antidepressants,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: which I think are great.
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: Yes, just to be clear, absolutely it is.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: It's the thing about real self care, and I think
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of parallels here with parenting, like there
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: is no quick fix, Like, yes, there are these short
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: term reliefs. I call those methods, right, They're things that
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: you can do in the moment to help yourself stay afloat.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: But what actually leads to well being, better mental health,
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: and a life that feels fulfilling is principles and having
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: some guidance around what's most important to you. And then
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: this is the hard part. And you talk about this too,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: making hard decisions, like you say, I love that blog
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: post of parent data. There's no secret option C, Like
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: there's no secret option CE. It's you just have to
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: choose what you care most about and prioritize that and
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: that's sort of the crux of real self care.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: But you can't.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: But it's hard. So that's why there's four steps. And
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: the first is boundaries, right, because you have to really
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: kind of get clear.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me, Okay, let's do I was going to
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: do boundies and so let's do boundaries.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: Now tell me about boundaries.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, So my conceptualization of boundaries is a little bit
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: different than what you might hear. So I talk about
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: boundaries as the pause And I tell a story in
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: the book about when I first graduated from residency at
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: GW and this was like twenty sixteen, and it was
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: my first day on the faculty and my mentor who
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: was the head of our or is the head of
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: our women's mental health clinic. She took me out for
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: lunch and I was like bright eyed, bushy tailed, you know,
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: first day on faculty, and she was like, you know,
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: the one piece of advice for you I have Pooja
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: is you don't have to answer your phone. You can
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: let it go to voicemail, and then you can decide
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: after you listen, you can decide how to respond. And
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: that for me was like a big aha, because I
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: had just come from med school and residency where at
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: that time we had like pagers and page would go
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: off and you have this like PTSD reaction, like you
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: had to call back, and I was like oh. And
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: then for me in that context, it was like Okay.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's the front desk and they have like insurance paperwork,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: and I can call them back and say I'll do
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: that at the end of the day. Sometimes it's a
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: patient who I know, you know, has ADHD and if
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: she misses a day of her stimulant, she literally might
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: get into a car accident.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: So like I'm going to put that.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: Refill in, but I decide, So the boundary is the pause,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: and then you get to say yes, no, or negotiate,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: because the no always has a cost, right like again
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: no secret option. See, the no has a cost, and
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: if you are in a marginalized group, if you're a
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: woman of color, if you're a black women in corporate America,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: that no is to have higher cost. So it's not
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: always accessible, but the pause is. And then if you
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: determine like Okay, you know what, I can't say no
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: one to my boss right now because like literally this
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: is my livelihood. Then your goal is six months from now,
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: I want to be closer to being able to say no.
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: So what can I put in place? So again it's
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: the decision making, but the boundary is the first step,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: like the realizing you even have a choice and taking
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: that space.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, the other thing you're you're talking about there
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: is is sort of thinking deliberately about the idea of boundaries.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a tool, this idea of like let
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: it go to voicemail, Like that's a tool but also
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: requires you to have sort of started by saying, Okay,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: where am I going to want to go? What are
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the boundaries, what are the structures I want to put
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: in place that are going to get me there? And
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: then how am I going to implement this plan that
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: I have with this particular tool or this sort of
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: set of tools. You got to think about it.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, right, it'll be deliberate, right, and you have to
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: know you do have to know yourself and know what
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: you want and know what your future self will want,
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: and so that takes time. Right, So I think there's
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: also this element of like, you're gonna mess up, It's
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: not gonna be perfect, Like that's just part of the process.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: You're collecting data too as you go along.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: About what makes you happy or what makes you fulfilled,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: or what makes your life the life that you want.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is something I talk about a lot
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: in the context of sort of structuring your family life.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: Is like actually sitting down and thinking about, you know,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: what do you want your what do you want your
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: data look like? What do you want your weekends to
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: look like? You know, how do you want your family's
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: life to be structured? And it does then require sometimes
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: sacrifices no secret option. See, like you can't both have
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: family dinner every night and also have your kid do
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: gymnastics from five to eight pm every day.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Like that's not that's just like you can't do both
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: of those.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: And so sometimes you have to decide which of those
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: things you're going to do and making that choice in
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: a way that works for your family. That's kind of
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: is self care, Like that's what it is. That's like
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: making a life that you're going to be happy with
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: most of the time and not one that you will
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: feel I don't know if you need to escape to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: your candles from.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: Right right or to like the retreat or whatever it
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: is right retreat right. Can I touch on another piece
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: of that, Yeah, totally, because I think that ties in.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: You know, the next principle is compassion.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: And you have a.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Great line in the Family Firm where you say it's
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: where you're talking about the different parenting labels, you know,
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: the helicopters.
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: The chickens, the tiger, the ostrich.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I like, yeah, my son read this, I want to say,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: and he was like, is that a real kind? And
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: I was like, no, I made that up. And he's like, oh, Okay,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: it's funny.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: It's like, all right, thanks, But you say parenting is
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: in the end about what you do, not what you
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: call it. Yeah, And I think the same applies to
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: self care in that once you set the boundaries, the
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: first thing that comes up, especially for moms is guilt.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: And oh my god, I'm a selfish person, right, but
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: we need to let go of these labels and understand
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: that you're like, the labels are just outside creation. That's noise, right, Instead,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: and we can talk more about guilt, but like it's
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: it's really about making the choices that align with the
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: life that you want.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think we should talk about the guilt
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: because I think that one maybe I've touched on this before,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: but like for me and I do want to come
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: at the end to like our kinds of personal self care.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: But for me, one of my pieces of self care
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: is having a job outside of my home.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Like that for me is a.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Really important part of shaping the life that I want.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: And I think framing it in that way, like that's
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: my self care. This job is my office, like this
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: is how I am happy. I think for many people
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: this generates a lot of guilt, right, Like it's hard.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: It can be hard to say I'm working outside my
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: house and my kids have they go to school, they
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: have a nanny, they have whatever. The thing that we
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: want to say is I work outside the home. I
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: like have a job because I have to, right, and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: saying I don't have to, but I do because I
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: like it, right, which I've said publicly many times, and
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: some nice people say, you know, that's that's selfish, right,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: It's not what's the best thing for your kids, And
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I think that can generate quite a lot of guilt.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, and the presumption there there's two pieces. One
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: is that you don't matter. Your mental health doesn't matter,
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: your well being doesn't matter, and that the only way
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: that it could matter is if it leads to more
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: well being.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: For your kids.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's the deflection people use, like, well, I'm a
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: better parent because which is true, you know for many
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: people is true.
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, but that doesn't have to be the only reason.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think to be able to say like, I yeah, like, yes,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think that this probably does improve my parenting.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure my kids would benefit from having more
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: of my time.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: Frankly, I benefit from less, but I would work even
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: if like that isn't the only reason, and maybe it's
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: not even the primary reason, right, Yeah, And I and
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that's like even saying it like that, you like, because
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: a little bit like, oh, like do I and what
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: I really say, Like if I thought it was a
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: little bit better for my kids if I stayed home,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: like what I still work? I think the answer is yes,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: And like, oh, maybe that's maybe I am a terrible parent.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: A terrible parent.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: Well, no, you're not a terrible parent, but you're this
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: is like just touching on you know. In the book,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: I talk about Martha Beck's work, Martha Beck, the sociologist
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: and Oprah superstar. Her work has really been inspirational for
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: me because she's studied culture for her entire career and
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: she talks about how women have to reconcile the irreconcilable
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: in our society and exactly what you're talking about. How
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: moms are taught that their selflessness is their value. And
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: I also told at the same time that their self
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: care is something that they should be prioritizing and performing.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: So there was a study that I referenced in the
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: book from Mercer University which surveyed moms which they checked
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: off both as a priority, but.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: They're in conflict.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: Our whole culture is set up that way, Like it's
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: not an accident, right, So this guilt that you feel,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: it's from the outside, it's not actually yours. So the
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: way that I frame it with my patients is then
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: this comes from acceptance and commitment therapy is think of
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: this metaphor, think of the guilt as like a faulty
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: check engine light on your car dash. So, like you
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: took your car, got the engine change, like everything checked out,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: it's fine, but there's like the light that keeps flicking
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: no matter what.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: It's broken.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: It doesn't give you any meaningful information, but it's always there.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: And that's what the guilt is. And so if you
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: said your life decisions with guilt as your moral compass,
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: So if you make all your choices in avoidance of guilt,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: that life just ends up with you as a murtyr
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: and angry, pissed. Nobody wants to be around you because
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: you're just the angry mom, right. You know it's not
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: it's not a good path, so you have to Actually
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: the work is like with compassion, is not giving it power,
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: just letting it be in the background. It's it's just
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: that check engine light. It doesn't mean anything, like, it
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: doesn't have to guide you.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I'm totally going to use that as someone whose car
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: is frequently has this problem of car and my emotions.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: So can we talk about kids and the question of
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: whether to have them at all? Because I think we
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: were talking about this is mostly people who listen to
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: this are parents, but some of them are not.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And even if you are a parent.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I got a question the other day, which maybe is
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a good way to frame here, where somebody said I
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: only have we only have one kid. I only want
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: to have one kid, and people told me that's selfish
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: and like what should I Their question was what should
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I say to them? And my answer was like, I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: can't repeat it because I'm trying to keep this podcast
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: more PG.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: But but but basically.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Like, how do we frame that out of I think
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that's a crazy thing to tell somebody.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I have a couple thoughts on this,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: So one is, yeah, I've been through this, this internal
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: conflict myself, and I wrote a piece for the Times,
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: I think it was last year about ambivalence around motherhood
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: of my own ambivalence. You know, I grew up an
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: immigrant family. My family's from South Asia, from India, and
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: kind of the model of motherhood in that culture, in
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: my culture is murder.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: You know. My mom stayed at home.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: Everything was about sacrifice, and I was just like, growing up,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: I was like, why did I want that? You know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: when I went to Penn and I became a doctor
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and it was like I'm gonna throw myself into my career,
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: and or in my late twenties, I went through a
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: divorce and kind of a whole life blow up slash exploration,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: and I was kind of like, I just don't know
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: if I want to do this. So I only came
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: to motherhood at like thirty eight and a half. And
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: it's interesting because the piece that I wrote for The Times,
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: you know, of course I read the comments. Even though
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: everybody says, don't know the common comments. I know everybody
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: says that, but does anybody actually take that advice.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: My daughter once when she was like during the throes
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: of COVID, when people were saying really nasty things to
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: me on the internet, I was explaining to my like
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: ten year old, like, I feel really bad because people
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: are saying these things, and she was just.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Like, but do you have to read the comments?
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: And I was like, yeah, I don't.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I don't have to. She's like, maybe you shouldn't. I
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: was like mm hmmm, okay, thanks right.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I just didn't have the
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: will power. But you know, it's all and the piece
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: was all about prioritizing your mental health and that it's
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: okay as a mother, and you know, people were scathing
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: around that, you know, like well, if you waited until
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: you were thirty nine to have a baby, then clearly
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: you never actually even wanted to be a mother, so
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: why would you do it now? Right, So this is
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: the stuff that people here, you know, And I think
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: the decision to become a parent is is a real
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: self care decision. I would put it in like it's
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: like the four hundred level class, right, It's like after
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: you get through figuring out if like you know, if
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: it's yoga or running or reading sci fi, then that's
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: one oh one, and then you get to four hundred
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: and then it's like, okay, do I want to do
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: I want to be married? Do I want to have
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: a kid? And it's normal, it's normal to wrestle with
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: that because there's no right answer, and there's pros and cons,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: and of course there's amazing things about being a parent.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: And it's also really hard thing.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: There's also really hard things and both are true. Both
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: are true. I have a I guess he's a toddler now.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: He like became a toddler in two weeks over like
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: to some like overnight he switched from baby to toddler.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: And now he has all the toddler feelings and none
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: of the words. And so it's rough, and the highs
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: are really high, like he's super cute and really fun
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: and doing fun stuff. So but again, it only works
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: if it means something important to you In real self care,
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: I talk about you. Demonic well being, which is based
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: on this theory of well being, means that your values,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: your internal values, and your life choices are aligned. It's
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: the opposite of hedonic well being. Hedonic well being means
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: that well being is the absence of suffering. So yeah,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: so there will be suffering when you make choices that
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: are aligned with your values, Like, there will be you know.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: It's it's kind of like what Mark Manson says, like
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: you just have to choose your suffering, which suffering is
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: more tolerable for you because it means something.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: So one of the and we look at like the
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: data on marital satisfaction after kids, generally it goes down,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: but it goes down much less when people have planned.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: So the declines are much bigger if births are unplanned.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: And I think part of that is by planning this,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: we have maybe we didn't know exactly the frame of
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: the suffering, but we've chosen something that we together, that
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: we know is going to have some of the complications
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: and many of the joys that come with this, and
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that is a buffer against at least some of these
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: kind of internal conflicts, not all of them, right right conflicts.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: And you know, I think that the other question that
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: you asked about whether to have more than one kid.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: You know, this has been surprising for me because I
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: always thought that that deciding not to have kids was
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: the most stigmatized decision. But now I'm in a place
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: where people are asking me if I'm going to have
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: another baby, and I'm really like, I don't know, Like
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: this is this has been really hard and it's great,
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: but I don't know if we can handle another And.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Then people say, but don't you want to give him
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: a sibling exactly.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: Somebody actually said to me that you can't do that.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: That is so selfish, like literally, like you have to
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: give your child a sibling.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: You can't just have one kid.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: Like I think she even said, like, if you were
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: going to do that, you shouldn't have even had a kid.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: Oh my god.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: And I was like just I couldn't even respond because
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: I was so shocked, and I just want to say, like,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: that's not true, like there are so many happy uh oh,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: you know, only children, and you can be perfectly happy
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: deciding to have one child. And but it's it's people.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: I think when you make a choice that maybe goes
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: against society's expectations, it causes other people to then question
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: their own decisions.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I think I totally agree with that.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: I would have said it slightly differently, which is when
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: people make choices that are important to them, they want
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: those choices to be right, and they want them to
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: be so right.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: That they're right for everybody.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: And so saying like I chose to have two kids,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: and it's the choice that work for me, and that's true,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Like I have two kids. That was the number that
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: we wanted. When we had just one, I was like,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: we're not done. As soon as the second one came out,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I was like, okay, like, where's the laun term birth
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: yourtrol because we are totally one hundred percent done here.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: But when people have made some choice, then there's this again,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: this temptation to say, well, you should make my choice,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: because my choice about number of kids or breastfeeding or
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: you know, sleep training, or what kind of divers to use,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: or where to send a kid to school, whatever it
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: is that must be so right, that it's right for everybody,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: and that so quickly moves into this like in the
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: case of this person you talk to, like so deeply
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: inappropriate interactions with another person. I mean, if you when
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: you say it like that in the abstract, can you
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: imagine saying such a thing to someone about you know,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: other choices they make.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's so.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: Rude, right, just so straight up rude right.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Well, And I think, like, of course, coming from a
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: psychiatrist's perspective, I always think about like the messy internal conflict,
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: and I think that what you're describing from your position
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: is somebody who is not conflicted. Right, You made that
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: choice based on what you knew you wanted and not
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: based on what society wants. But when someone is making
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: decisions based on more of like an expectation, then you
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: feel a little bit more threatened when you come across
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: another person who has made a different choice.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I mean this, I think for me, that most alient
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: part for this is breastfeeding bas it. For so many people,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: it's very hard, and a lot of people because of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the expectations and the pressures we put, really pushed through
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: very difficult circumstances and in ways that really it hasn't
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: brought joy or certainly in the aggregate, maybe there's more
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: negatives than positives about that experience. But you think I'm
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: doing it because it's the most important thing. And then
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: when someone says, you know, this wasn't for me. I
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: opted this other thing. It's very hard to say, well,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I killed myself to do this, but I guess it
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: wasn't that big a deal. I think that's where you
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: sort of get into this, Yeah, yeah, really extreme judgment.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: I think the breastfeeding piece is that's one of the
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: hardest pieces in my practice with patients, and I kind
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: of start really early in pregnancy of like kind of
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: putting those seeds out there that this is not the
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: be all end all, that there's lots of options. But
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: I use it as an example in real self care.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Actually a patient who let go of breastfeeding and that
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: was a real self care decision. And then once she
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: made that choice, she was able to get back into
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: working out in a way that felt nourishing for her,
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: and she was able to go to the postpartum support
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: group and actually take some of it in. But when
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: she was stuck in that place of still breastfeeding but
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: feeling so resentful, none of the other methods worked.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: So tell me what yourself, what are you working on
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: with your self care? And then I'll tell you I'll
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: tell you mine.
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: So when I sold this book proposal my therapist, I
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: told my therapist I was like, how can I write
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: a book about self care? So I'm a workaholic, you know.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: She was like, Pooja, I think you're gonna learn a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: lot from this process. I've always been really good at.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: The So I go to therapy. I have I have
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: a coach that I work with.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: He helps me with some of these like figuring out
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: my career and things like that. But I'm great with boundaries.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: The issue that for me is that I like to
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: do a lot of things. So I notice that like
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: every couple of years, I go into another sort of
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: season of change, and right now I'm in another season
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: of transition where there's just so much on my plate
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: that I'm having to figure out like there's no secret option. See,
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I'm having to tell myself that and also like recognizing
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: and having to think through like how do I really
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: want to spend my time? You know, like what do
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: I really want to be doing? Do I want to
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: be on calls all the time, or do I want
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: to be writing? Do I want to be seeing patients
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: and like getting really deep with folks in their life,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: or do I want to be responding to emails. So
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure that out. I don't have all
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: the answers, but the things that help me. Let's should
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: back up and say, in the context of all this,
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: I had a whole bunch of health issues last month.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I had to get my gall bladder out because I
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: had gallstones. I was in the hospital, I had a
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: kidney stone, so you know, like it was not subtle
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: that I needed to rest.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Your body was like first we're gonna be the gallstones.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: So you were like, okay, okay, but I'm done with that,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: and I was like, you didn't rest enough.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I have other stones for you.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: Right exactly. So I am now.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: I recently joined the YMCA, and I'm walking. I'm not
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: a runner. I know you're a runner. I'm not a runner,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: but I'm walking and I'm just I'm taking time, like
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I'm putting in three or four hours a week to
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: just read for fun. I like to read sci fi.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: And my son is in a really fun age, so
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: you know, for me to be transparent, like the early
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: baby phase was not super fun. But now I'm noticing
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: that I really like hanging out with him and I
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: want to have time to be with him. So I'm
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: trying to figure out how to make that happen.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: I find I will tell you, I think as my
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: kids have gotten older, I have only wanted to spend
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: more time with them, and I've also increasingly felt like
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: my time is less substitutable with other peoples. So when
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: they were little, I usually thought our nanny was, if anything,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: quite a bit better because she's very patient, uh with
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: the baby, And but now there are things that they
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: need me for and I really like them.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: They're like they're like really interesting.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Last time my son and I cooked together, it was
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: like so great, and then afterwards he was like, this
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: was so fun. I love cooking with you. I was
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, this is the greatest day
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: of my whole life. Yes, I'm not gonna cry, it's fine.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: So my self care is running and it's sort of
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: interesting that I have run for exercise for like my
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: whole basically my whole life. But in the last like
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: couple of years, I started like taking it what my
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: husband would describe as too seriously mine, but like for
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: me sort of thinking about it as something that I'm
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: investing in and trying to.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Do better in.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: And I think part of what's valuable there is it
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: is a place that I can fail with no consequences.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Like the only person who cares if I don't run
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: as fast as I wish to is me, Like that's it.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, no one else.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: And other people don't care because they could care because
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: they wanted me to be happy, but nobody else is like, boy,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I'm so disappointed that like you didn't, you know, break
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: ninety minutes in the half.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Marri like nobody else cares except for me.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting to explore, like, Okay, when there's a
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: disappointment like that, like in this way that is objectively
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: incredibly low stakes, but to me feels very high stakes
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: because I care about it for whatever reason. Like experimenting
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: with that and how I can get through that, but
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: like how I deal with that has actually been really
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: interesting as a way to think about how I deal
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: with failures that matter more in the other parts of
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: my life. It's also been interesting because it has been
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: something that I've been willing to prioritize that is for me,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: and that I can only do because my kids are
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: now bigger. But it's been a really good exercise in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: being like, Okay, I'm not going to be able to
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: walk you to school because like I need to run
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: seventeen miles this morning, and I have to leave before
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: you go to school, and you'll have to walk yourselves
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to school, which is not a boundary that I have
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: like typically put up with my kids. And somehow this
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: is a thing that gives me the freedom to make
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: that boundary, which I could have made anyway, But somehow this.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Is enough for me.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I love that last thing that you just said.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Somehow this is enough for me. Like, that's so powerful
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: because what I'm hearing is that it's a practice for
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: you because nobody else is dependent on it. You don't
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: get maybe the external accolades, yeah, that come in other
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: parts of your work. Sometimes no one's livelihood is dependent
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: on it, but you still are doing it, like the
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: value right, it's like completely internal.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: It's completely internal.
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a great example. I think for me,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: writing used to be that, but now I have a book,
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: so writing is also became worried, right, it became my job.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: So I'm trying to figure out how to get back
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: to something that isn't a job.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: So stay tuned for that.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Stay tuned, stay tuned for your for your self care.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, my producer Tomar is making hand Jess. I think
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: she has a question for you, Pooja, and I want
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to let her ask.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: It because I think I know what it's going to
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: be about.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: I love that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 6: Okay, Well, so my question is does self care have
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: to be something that is quote unquote good for you?
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: Because I'm realizing that my self care is roller coasters.
• 33:18
  Speaker 6: I'm actually going again tonight. We have a season past.
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: My husband and I have a season pass. Deceed her point,
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: And there is something about doing something absolutely ridiculous that
• 33:30
  Speaker 6: shoots the adrenaline you know, you see, it shakes you
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: out of your house and your day and you're just
• 33:37
  Speaker 6: screaming going down a huge hill and it's like I
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: come back happy and restored.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: But I tell my family about it and they laugh
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: at me. So is it?
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: You know, like we think of self care as something
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: like Okay, well at least this, this makes you a
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: healthier person, but you know, do you get to choose
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: what actually makes you healthy?
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Okay? First tomorrow? I love this. I love this for
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: you and your husband.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: I can I can hear it in your voice of
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I come back and I'm excited, I feel good, I'm energized,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: you're having fun, you're playing. That is absolutely aligned with
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: real self care. And the other piece here is that
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: it's like no one thing is good or bad. It's
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: actually about the process that you take to get there.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: So the way that you've thought about it, the way
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: that you've thought about what it brings to your life,
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: the fact that you're doing it together like this is
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: maybe it started as something sort of spontaneous and on
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: a whim. But then you've thought more about it and
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: realized that it had positive repercussions. So it absolutely fits.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, that's the thing about sometimes
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: other people's reactions, we can get stuck on them and
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: maybe worry and take in some of that judgment. But
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: I think it's great. I have a patient who board
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: games is their self care with their partner, and it's
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: something that's so out of the routine, right they actually
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: they do it, stay up late, and do it right.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: So I think that that's that's actually brilliant.
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: It's a hard thing to ask for babysitting for, you know,
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: it's a hard thing to that that's like a worthy.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Well, why is it any different than a date night?
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I know, like going out to a restaurant. It's actually
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: healthier because you're probably not drinking.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope that.
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: So it's also hard to ask for a date night.
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: It's hard to ask for anything that just feels like
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: indulgent decadenes exactly.
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: I love it. I love your roller Coaster.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Thanks Tamar so Pooja, your book is amazing. What is
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the one thing you wish people maybe there's a million things.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: But if you had to say one thing you wish.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: People would take away from the book or from this conversation.
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: What is it?
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: I think that it is.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: You can start now, You can start wherever you are.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: It can be one tiny thing. It can be an
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: email that you sent to your boss about needing to
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: leave at four thirty instead of five. It can be
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: saying to your partner like, hey, can we have a
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: talk tonight. I want to chat about something like it's
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: not it doesn't It doesn't need to be big. And
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: I think often, especially in the parenting context, it's really
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: common to sort of feel like you're drowning and you
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: don't want to think about one more thing.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: And I want to.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Say that with real self care, it's it doesn't have
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: to be anything big. And actually the small steps, the
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: small little seeds, they add up.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I love that so much. Thank you, pusha thank.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: You absolutely, it was such a pleasure to be here.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me Emily.
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: More parent data after the break.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: So sometimes self care is about recognizing the ways in
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: which the world is seemingly going out of its way
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: to scare you and giving yourself the tools you need.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: To push back.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: So I want to talk about panic headlines, how do
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: we recognize them, and how do we fight back. You
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: may remember that in the last episode we talked to
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the Surgeon General about phones and social media, and I
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: heard from a lot of you with articles about the topic.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: One of the most popular was an article titled study
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: links one year old screen time with developmental delay risks.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: This was in the Washington Post on September fourth, just
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: in time for school, and.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: As a headline, this is scary.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: It's designed to get you to click on it, get
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: through the paywall, and then panic about the small amount
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: of television.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: That your child is watching. But if you actually.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Dial into this study, it doesn't really show.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: What the headline suggests. What it shows is that when
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: they compare kids who watch more than four hours of
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: television a day at one to kids who watch less
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: than that, they perform slightly different on cognitive tests at
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: the age of two. They don't actually perform any different
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: on cognitive tests at the age of four. So one
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: thing is.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: That this is not a long lasting effect. But also,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: as with many of these headlines, we have to ask
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: the question, what's driving parents to use four hours of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: television with their kid's at the age of one, and
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: what are the differences between families where kids are watching
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: that much TV and those who are watching less.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Characteristic of many studies in this.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Space is that there are a lot of other differences
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: across families which are probably driving differences in the results,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: and those are almost certainly responsible for what we're seeing,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: rather than the screen time itself being responsible. What should
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: you learn from something like this, I would argue almost nothing.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: The study doesn't say screens are good. It doesn't say
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: screens are bad in any way that you should believe.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: It's just not informative. And that's true of many of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: the things that are covered in these panic headlines. When
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: you look at something like this, remember papers need to
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: sell copies. Headlines are often for clicks. Try to read
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: the study a little bit more deeply and keep calm.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: the Parent Data Team and PI Rex. Also special thanks
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: to our house violinist, my daughter Penelope.
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: No problem Mom.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: If you have thoughts on this episode, please join the
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: conversation on my Instagram at Prof Emily Oster, and if
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: you want to support the show, become a subscriber to
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: the parent Data newsletter at parentdata dot org, where I
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: write weekly posts on everything to do with parents and
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: data to help you make better, more informed parenting decisions.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: For example, you might be interested in the post There's
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: no Secret option see which Pooja references in this episode
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: in which could be useful for your own personal decision making.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, please leave the show
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: a positive review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps people
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: find out about us.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Write Penelope right, mam. We'll see you next time.