Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 11: Kephalē (alyssa & bri's version)

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Ep. 11: Kephalē (alyssa & bri's version) · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

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Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
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My name is Alyssa.
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And my name is Bri.
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We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
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We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
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word.
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And apparently that's controversial.
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It's a bit comfy.
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Hello!
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You're gonna hurt someone's ear.
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Hello!
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Someone's gonna kill you.
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Hello!
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I'm gonna kill you.
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This is the last episode in our submission series.
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My stomach just made a really weird noise.
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You just ate so you can't be hungry.
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I'm digesting.
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So the first episode in this series, we went through an article on what this one pastor
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believed.
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It was why submission preceded the fall.
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You got it.
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There we go.
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And talked through some of... it was one particular article, but you know, kind of the main arguments
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of that side of things.
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And then last main episode, we talked through why submission in Ephesians means something
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different than we've been taught.
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I feel like I say that all the time.
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And so this is gonna be part three.
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We're gonna talk through another article by...
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Okay, so I've been corrected on her name.
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Supposedly it is Marg.
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I've been told it's Marg.
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Who told you that?
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Mom listened to a podcast by Sheila.
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Sheila Raeg-Reguar.
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We love her.
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We do love her.
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And I believe she knows the woman.
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Or she just mispronounced her name.
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It's very possible.
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Who are we to say?
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Either way.
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By Marg Mousko.
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I don't know.
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M-O-W-C-Z-K-O.
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Yes.
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It's up to interpretation, really.
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This is the same author that wrote the article that we worked through last week.
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And she is just so incredibly smart and educated.
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She's a brilliant, brilliant Marg.
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Like, if you have the chance to check out her website, she has just countless articles.
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Do you think her real name is Margarita?
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Yeah, I think that's probably it.
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I hope it really is.
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I mean, there's gotta be people out there named Margarita.
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There are people named that.
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Are there any Margaritas listening?
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Margarita, if there's any out there, I will buy you a Margarita and I will also buy myself
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a Margarita.
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We will go out together and have a Margarita.
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What if they live in, like, Spain?
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Fly me out there.
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I need a passport.
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You do.
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So anyway, so she did an article and it is called, let me pull it up.
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Oh, can I say it?
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You absolutely can.
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Cefale, a mail headship in Paul's letters.
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And mail headship.
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Let me say that again.
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Cefale and mail headship in Paul's letters.
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Let's talk about what mail headship means because not everybody knows what that means
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and it sounds kind of inappropriate.
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It really does.
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I can't put that in the title.
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No.
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Heaven knows.
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No.
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Although we might get some more views.
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That's true, but probably from the wrong audience.
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But we'll be reaching them.
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And they need us.
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So basically this phrase is used in Christian circles.
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This is another really churchy way of saying things.
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Like if you play cards Christians like, it's probably in there.
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Yeah, probably.
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If you guys have not tried that game.
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It's Cards Against Humanity, but for people who grew up in the Christian circles.
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Yeah.
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And it is so funny.
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It was made by a bunch of, I think, youth pastors.
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Maybe.
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It was on Kickstarter a few years ago and I bought it and it's like one of the most
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popular games in our family.
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Everybody loves it.
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It's fantastic.
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Grandma does not love it.
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She thinks it's a little blasphemous.
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She might be right.
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It's a little blasphemous.
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But anyway, so this very churchy term essentially means, essentially we've been told, I guess,
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that it means that men are above women in authority, whether that's in the church or
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in their marriages.
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Think like the head of a company or the head of whatever you think, like the boss man.
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Exactly.
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So that comes from a couple of different verses in the Bible.
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Look how quickly we got on track.
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Are you proud?
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It's like not even five minutes in.
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Wow.
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It's because it's a thousand degrees in here.
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Yeah, we're meaning business.
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Yeah, business.
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We're business ladies.
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So this phrase pops up twice in the Bible, once in Colossians and once in Ephesians.
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So I'm going to read that to you.
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Once is in the household codes.
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So we've gone over this many times.
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We'll keep coming back.
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Ephesians is an exciting book for women.
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And so it's Ephesians, let's see, 523 is where this pops up and says, this is the NIV,
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For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body
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of which he is the savior.
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And then it goes on to talk about submission.
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And then, which if you missed last week, listen to this one first and then bounce back.
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Highly recommend listening to this one first and then go to the next.
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And then it pops up again in Colossians 3.
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I'm really holding back saying Colossians the way that I want to.
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I would love if you just, you didn't do that.
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Colossians.
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Oh, I'm, oh, first Corinthians.
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I'm sorry, I'm in Colossians.
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Okay, so when I said Colossians earlier, I was wrong.
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It's in fact in first Corinthians and I can't read.
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And I've always said that.
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So first Corinthians 3, it says, but I want you to realize that the head of every man
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is Christ and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God.
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Not confusing at all.
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So that's in first Corinthians.
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And that's, that is kind of the section on covering your head in worship.
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So it talks about women wearing head coverings when they're worshiping God.
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So those are the two passages that really reference it.
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And in modern day, oh, that's why Colossians.
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Okay.
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I found the Colossians verse guys.
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So Colossians 1, 18.
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Excuse me.
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I said that so long ago.
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I said it's right here at the top.
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Colossians, Colossians, Colossians.
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Curse you.
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That could be the title of the episode.
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And in fact I'll read it.
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Colossians 1, 18.
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Paul writes, the son is the head of the church body of which he is the beginning Archie.
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The firstborn of the dead so that he himself may be first in everything.
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Was that clear enough?
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If you're wondering why she said Archie in the middle of that, it's because the author
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has put in several instances of, are they Greek or?
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Don't ask me.
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Okay.
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So the original terms.
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So that's where Cephele comes from.
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A-R-C-H-E with like a flat accent.
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We should look up what that is.
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So Marg.
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Are we done?
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She talks about how this verse, so that verse in Colossians is to show that Jesus was essentially
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like the beginning of everything.
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Which means Jesus was the beginning of everything.
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Jesus was the beginning of everything.
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Interesting.
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I like towards the end of the article when she says the head body metaphor means that
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they're both part of the same body.
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One cannot be without the other.
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So it doesn't make sense that one person has more authority.
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So then in Ephesians where it says the husband is the head of the wife, we translate that
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to mean that he is the leader of his wife.
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That the man is the head of the company.
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But that's not a perfect translation of the word Cephele.
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Right.
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And Marg goes on.
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She goes on to talk about how the head body metaphor that Paul uses several times, which
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again because it's not a perfect translation, probably wasn't exactly what he was saying.
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But what we've translated as the head body metaphor was not something that the early
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church people would have been familiar with.
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Like the word Cephele wouldn't have meant leader.
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It wouldn't have meant the head of the company, the head of the church, the head of the...
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It didn't mean that.
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I'm assuming it meant more relating to Jesus or God.
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Well in Ephesians it does talk about the husband specifically.
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So that's the only place where you see, or that is the place where you see the husband
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and wife in this metaphor.
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And so then the question becomes why?
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Why is Paul saying that the husband is the Cephele of the wife if he's not the leader?
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What did it mean instead?
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So she says that it has a lot of...
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The word Cephele has a lot of metaphorical meanings.
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But a person in authority over others probably wouldn't have been one of the options.
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Like if you're doing a little Scantron, authority isn't one of the bubbles.
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Or if it is, it's the wrong bubble.
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Do they still do Scantrons?
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I think they do.
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I think they do.
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Mostly they do tests on the computer though.
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It's not good for your eyes.
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Like they bypass it.
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Well neither is my phone, but here we are.
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So she says, nevertheless, today in Christianity in our churches, we have assumed that that
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Greek word means authority in the New Testament.
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Hey it's Greek!
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Now we know.
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Greek!
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Give me a word.
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Any word.
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You could have finished the sentence.
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I don't know the rest.
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He goes, and I'll show you how the root of the word is Greek.
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Is Greek.
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Windex.
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And whatnot.
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You sound like grandpa a little bit.
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We come from Mediterranean descent, but you would not know it by how very pale I am.
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Okay, so this is very off topic.
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But your hair right now.
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Since when is anything on topic?
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We've lost our minds.
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It's so hot.
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Your hair right now.
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Because you've got, Brianna has a claw clip, a very large claw clip sitting directly on
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the top of her head.
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I don't like the judgment that's happening right now.
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If you've ever seen Princess Diaries 2, where the guy that does the hair, he comes in and
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he does her hair the first time, and then he shows her herself and she goes, I look
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like a moose.
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That's what I'm thinking of right now.
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You jerk.
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I feel like a moose.
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I'm so hot.
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Her moose is particularly hot.
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Her hair right now.
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Moose?
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Meese?
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What's the plural of moose?
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It's obviously meese.
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We all know that.
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Maybe we can hop back on topic.
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Back to kefele.
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Bringing it back around.
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Another piece of evidence that shows that kefele does not mean leadership or authority
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or any of those difficult words that we like to interpret it as is that the Hebrew word
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for head, which was rosh, meant your actual head.
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Your physical body, like my brain and your eyeballs, your nose, the part that looks like
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a moose, all that.
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That was the word rosh.
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Translators through time translated rosh into kefele.
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That physical part of your body, they made that into the word kefele over time.
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It's like a game of telephone.
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Yeah, there's not a perfect translation for everything.
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We know that from modern day translations because we know that translations aren't perfect
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and that over time a translation of a translation of a translation has lost a lot of the initial
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meaning.
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We have to really go all the way back to the original Greek, which again, no one expects
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the average person to be able to do.
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No.
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But your pastors who tell you that men are in authority over women have studied this.
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They went to seminary if you didn't know.
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At least probably most of them did.
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They should have.
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They should know this.
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They should have studied Greek.
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It shouldn't take the two of us goofballs on the internet telling you about it.
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Quoting my big fat Greek wedding.
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So she says that in Hebrew, like in English, had can also mean leader or ruler.
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The word rosh, not the word kefele, the word rosh could mean leader in Hebrew.
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But in most cases where it did mean ruler or leader, there was a different Greek word
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used and that was, I say it, is arshon, I think.
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I'm going to assume you're wrong.
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I highly recommend looking this up because I'm butchering.
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Spell it.
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A-R-C-H-O with that fun little accent N. And that word does mean ruler or leader.
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So the fact that Paul did not use the word arshon and instead used kefele.
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Exactly.
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Says something.
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It says something about the meaning.
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Yeah.
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Paul was very smart.
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He chose his words carefully.
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And if we were back in first century churches right after Jesus died.
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I would stink a lot more than I do now.
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Well yeah, probably.
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But also this would make sense to us because this would just be your natural language.
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You wouldn't think that kefele meant leader because it's never meant leader to you before.
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So Paul didn't really-
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It meant my stinkin' head.
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So Paul didn't need to explain it.
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He didn't need to go through it for these people.
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It's just that now we're so far removed that we have to do some digging.
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We have to investigate a little bit.
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I think that's what's so important too is not just reading the words off the page.
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Dig into the deeper meaning.
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Dig into the historical context.
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Dig into the why of why you truly believe what you believe.
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Why do we believe that women and men are equal?
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Because of this.
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Because of digging and doing research.
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And that's why we're sharing it with all of you.
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And I think it makes the Bible so much more real.
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Like Paul, before digging into this, not just for the podcast but in my personal research,
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Paul was a little bit of the bad guy in my world because he has a lot to say about women.
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And I've said this before, it all seems really mean.
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He seems like he hates women.
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But when you dig into it and you look at what words did he actually use?
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What were his real actions towards women?
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You look at his relationship with Phoebe.
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It all makes Paul into a very different person than I thought he was.
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It turns him into a real person that I could really have a conversation with.
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The relationship that I had with Paul, and I'm sure it was you too growing up, was going
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to church and hearing about the verses putting down women that Paul wrote.
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But whenever they do a sermon on submission or Mother's Day, whatever, it's always, here's
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what Paul said to put you down.
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Keep you in your place.
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And I think it's because of translator bias in a lot of ways because you can look at certain
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translations that were written with the purpose of making sure women stayed where they were
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told.
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But I don't think Paul ever meant that, and I think there's so much evidence throughout
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the Bible that Paul, like Jesus, was setting women free from these societal expectations.
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Well, you can tell a lot about a person from their actions.
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And just like you just said, his relationship with Phoebe or any other woman that he had
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an interaction with- Prisca is another really good one.
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Yeah.
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Respect.
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Equal respect.
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Well, he called them his coworkers.
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He sent them out to do things that today we would not, not we, but the very conservative
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Christian church would not let women do.
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Like Phoebe went to the Roman church, she carried the book of Romans to the Roman house
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churches, and she preached it.
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Girl, preach.
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Preach.
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She gave them exactly what Paul wanted, the message that Paul wanted to convey.
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She didn't just hear, here's a letter.
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And we did a whole episode where we talked about this, but she didn't do that.
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She preached to them the message that Paul was trying to send.
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And he trusted her to do that.
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Right.
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And the same thing when you look at Prisca or Priscilla, depending on the translation
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and what you're looking at, she was another one that was a coworker of Paul's that Paul
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said, go preach.
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So Ephesians 523 says, because the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head
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of the church, he is the savior of the body.
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Nowhere does it say that man should be the head of his household or for a man to lead
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their wives, instead he says six times somewhere in there that the husband should love their
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wives.
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Yeah.
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Well, our last episode, we went through that.
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We talked about how the entire passage, the household codes, talks about love and care
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and not leadership, not decision making, not you are the be all and all of your home, but
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that it means care for someone as you would care for yourself.
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And she goes on to talk about like, why in a pairing, there's two people.
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It's not like it's a massive corporation.
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Why does there have to be one person that always makes the decisions, that always is
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the leader who isn't allowed to be questioned?
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It doesn't make sense for a pairing of two people to have that kind of power given to
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one person.
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Well, we've said this before, I don't know if we've said it on the podcast or just in
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real life, but in no other relationship, are you looking for a leader?
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You would never say that about our sister relationship.
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Well, one of us has to be the leader.
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One of us has to make the decisions.
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One of us does.
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You wouldn't say that about a friendship.
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You wouldn't say that about any other relationship.
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And all of the other people in your life would tell you, that's a bad relationship.
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Why are you friends with her?
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Stop being friends with her.
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We've talked about that so many times how any situation where you're so desperate for
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power, it just absolutely leads to abuse every single time.
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And we've seen it so many times in this submissive marriage unit.
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Well, I see it playing out in our world today.
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I mean, I can point to situations and say, this is an abuse of power.
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And even if you want to subscribe to the submission based marriage, which I don't have major issues
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with.
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Oh, that made it sound like I don't have major issues with it.
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I do.
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I don't agree with it.
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I have major issues with it.
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Sorry.
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You screamed it too.
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Even if you do, like let's say you are, you're fine with that.
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That's the way you want to live your life.
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I guess have added if both of you agree to that lifestyle.
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Even in that, don't abuse your power.
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Even in that for the men in those situations, you're still supposed to be the loving, caring
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servant that Christ calls you to be.
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Not some authoritarian leader.
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Because she goes on to talk about this later, but like the source that they're always talking
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about is not males in general, men in general.
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They're not the source because God is the source.
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And just because a lot of their arguments are, well, Adam was created first and then
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Eve was created from Adam.
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So therefore he has authority.
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Adam really had nothing to do with it.
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Adam was asleep.
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He was passed out and God was like, don't mind me.
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I'm going to take your rip.
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I'm going to take your rip.
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Don't mind me.
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He was passed out.
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He had no idea what was happening and God made Eve in his own image.
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Adam had nothing to do with it.
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God is the source.
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Godheadship.
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I don't like that either.
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We need to find a new word.
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She goes on to say, I'm just going to quote it because I wrote it down in a quote.
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I'm proud of you.
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She says, many Greek philosophers in writers such as Plutarch.
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Plutarch.
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There you go.
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Taught that husbands are the leaders and rulers of their wives.
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In contrast, no Bible author, including Paul, tells husbands to be the leader, ruler or
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authority over their wives.
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Rather than using any of the Greek words, which mean ruler, leader, authority, Paul
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used kefele, which with body to highlight the connectedness of husband and wife.
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They're supposed to be connected.
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They're supposed to be one singular unit.
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A metaphor that I've heard a lot is, and I don't like this metaphor.
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I'm not a fan of it, but I have heard it, is, well, the man is the head, but the wife
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or the woman is the neck.
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You heard that from my big fat Greek wedding.
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I heard it in church the other day.
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It's from my big fat Greek wedding, but the woman is the neck that turns the head where
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it goes.
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Now, I still have issues with that metaphor because I don't like the concept of, first
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of all, both of you not being able to control yourselves in your own life, but it's an interesting
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way of looking at that where it is interconnected.
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One needs the other.
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The head can't really do much of anything or be connected to the body of Christ without
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the neck.
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In contrast, the neck can't really talk or look or whatever.
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Again, I still don't like it.
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It has a lot of flaws.
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I think I would prefer if one was like, the husband was the left hand and the woman was
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the right.
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You know who else talks about the philosophers as well?
24:35
We haven't brought up in a while.
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Beth Ellison Barr.
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We should do a whole episode on Beth.
24:43
We should.
24:44
Just her and her life wouldn't be creepy at all.
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She's out there listening.
24:49
Sorry, Beth.
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I've stalked her and I know that she goes to Meyer.
24:54
You know, Meyer is regional, so most people don't know where Meyer is, especially our
24:58
international listeners.
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It's fun to say international listeners.
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Hello, you all.
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I know too, some people are listening.
25:07
I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe you guys are just major night owls and we go to bed
25:10
at eight, so I don't know.
25:12
But I wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy.
25:15
Grab your glasses.
25:16
You're out the door.
25:17
You're about to hit the city.
25:18
Before I leave, I grab my...
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Nope.
25:21
She brushes her teeth with a bottle of Jack.
25:23
When I leave for the night, I ain't coming back.
25:26
Thank you.
25:27
But when I wake up in the morning, there are always lots of new views that I assume it's
25:31
from people that are in different time zones than us because I mean, maybe you guys are
25:37
up till three, I don't know, but I'm not.
25:39
I'll tell you what, I am not.
25:41
Our mother is...
25:43
Get some sleep, Trisha.
25:46
Anyway, back to Beth Elsinbar.
25:53
So she talks in her book about the Greek and Roman philosophers of the time and how they
25:58
were extremely patriarchal.
26:01
To the point where at this time, the prevailing theory was that women's bodies were like mutilated
26:09
men's bodies.
26:10
Yes, I remember her talking about that.
26:12
Women were screwed up men.
26:14
And there's something, I'll have to look up the quote for sure, but there's something
26:18
about women in the womb were not strong enough to push their male parts out.
26:25
And I've always said that.
26:27
No, but really, I mean, that was the thought process of the time.
26:31
It sounds absolutely insane, but that was the thought process.
26:36
And so Paul, in the way that he words things, in the way that he speaks to men, in the way
26:40
that he speaks about women, brings them into the conversation, sends them out on ministry
26:46
missions, trips, I don't know.
26:50
Pilgrimages.
26:51
He turns that completely on its head and changes things for women.
26:57
He's not putting them down.
26:58
He's not putting them in their place.
27:00
And I will grant you a lot of things Paul says because of the way it's been translated.
27:06
It does sound like Paul's putting women in their place.
27:09
But when you jump into it, when you look at the Greek, when you break these things down,
27:14
that's not what he's doing at all.
27:16
Marge, our good friend Marge, says that unity, affinity, fidelity, equality, all of those
27:23
terms were absent in the marriages of the Greco-Roman society.
27:29
So Paul found it necessary to write about the godly ideals of marriage.
27:36
Like you said, bring it into the picture.
27:38
Right.
27:39
Tell, kind of put men in their place too.
27:41
Yeah.
27:42
Because up until this point, it's easy to look at these marriages where men could divorce
27:47
their wives at this time for any reason that they felt like.
27:49
I don't like the way she looked at me.
27:54
Her pinky toe looks weird.
27:56
And she would be out on the street and her options were to find a way to remarry, which
28:03
was difficult because she was divorced now, or become a prostitute.
28:08
Those were the options for her.
28:10
I would be a prostitute.
28:11
Thank you for that information.
28:15
And so Paul is calling some people out here.
28:19
He's saying, this is not the way that I want you to live.
28:22
And prior to this, they didn't necessarily have that instruction.
28:27
We don't see this mentioned really in the Old Testament.
28:30
It's not talked about as much by Jesus, which of course we wish it was, but this wasn't
28:36
Jesus' main mission.
28:38
His main mission was to show God's love to all people, and Jesus absolutely included
28:43
women in that.
28:45
But he didn't necessarily speak directly about marriage in the way that Paul is speaking
28:50
about marriage here.
28:52
The only time the word authority, or get ready for this pronunciation, excusia.
29:02
Spell it.
29:03
E-X-O-U-S-I-A.
29:04
Thank you.
29:05
Excusia.
29:06
Excusia.
29:10
Is used in the New Testament in the context of marriage, as in 1 Corinthians 7.4.
29:15
Do you want to look that up?
29:18
Sure.
29:19
So, 1 Corinthians 7.4 says, the wife does not have authority over her own body, but
29:25
yields it to her husband.
29:26
In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but yields it
29:30
to his wife.
29:31
And the marriage says that, this verse shows that rather than the husband being the authority
29:37
or decision maker, Paul expects husbands and wives to make decisions mutually together
29:43
in consent.
29:45
I think this verse is super interesting too because, and this is a little bit of an offshoot,
29:50
but male authority so often in conservative Christian churches means women have to submit
30:00
to sex whenever he says.
30:03
I think it's so interesting.
30:05
So this, chapter 7 here, at least the beginning of it, talks a lot about sex and don't do
30:13
it.
30:14
Don't sing a song.
30:17
Boys to men, that's all I'll say.
30:19
Alright, thank you.
30:20
So it talks through a lot of that.
30:21
And I just, so this was something that I think Sheila Ray Gregoire posted about?
30:28
Sheila, Sheila.
30:30
I know we mention a lot of names.
30:32
I would really encourage you guys to look up some of these women.
30:35
So she had posted something about the three day rule, which I was not familiar with, I
30:41
will say.
30:42
And I obviously grew up in very conservative Christian churches, but we also never talked
30:46
about sex.
30:47
That's true.
30:48
Like you never talked about it.
30:49
I was very confused for a very long time.
30:52
Mom, thanks.
30:54
So the three day rule is essentially that a married couple needs to have some kind of
31:01
interaction.
31:02
Interaction, thank you.
31:06
At least every 72 hours.
31:09
And just, I mean, first of all, give me a verse.
31:13
I mean, seriously.
31:14
Yeah.
31:15
Give me an even like, Paul, Jesus, speak up here.
31:19
Are you saying anything like that?
31:21
Like you can't even stretch a verse.
31:23
No.
31:24
To find that.
31:25
No.
31:26
There is nothing that says that whatsoever, but that is supposedly the rule.
31:30
And if the wife doesn't comply with that because the husband has urges, you know, and he just
31:36
can't possibly control himself, then he's liable to go out and cheat on her or look
31:43
at porn or whatever it is to fulfill his needs.
31:47
And it's her fault.
31:48
Yeah.
31:49
They put it back on the female and be like, that's on you.
31:51
Yeah.
31:52
And then they're looking at the men and being like, control yourselves.
31:54
And this is obviously like not exactly the topic that we're talking about today, but
31:59
I just think this verse throws all of that in the trash.
32:03
You have to completely breeze on by this verse in order to even kind of get to a world where
32:11
this 72 hour rule or any of those rules apply.
32:15
Even in the ESV it says, so I'll read from verse four, for the wife does not have authority
32:22
over her own body, but the husband does.
32:24
Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
32:28
If you aren't familiar, the ESV was written, the English standard version was written as
32:33
a response to the new international version, the NIV.
32:37
It was written from a much more conservative place.
32:41
So the NIV came out and took a lot of traditionally translated as male verses and made them gender
32:52
neutral because that's what they should be translated as.
32:56
They didn't just do it for fun.
32:58
They translated it that way.
32:59
They looked at the original transcripts and translated it that way.
33:02
Exactly.
33:03
So the ESV was written in response to that because a bunch of the Baptist pastors decided
33:09
that it was gender neutralizing the Bible and that that was not okay.
33:16
So anyway, so that's why we talk about this.
33:18
If you look at the difference there, and again, this is totally an offshoot, but I think it's
33:22
an important offshoot.
33:24
The NIV says the wife does not have authority over her own body, but yields it to her husband
33:30
and the husband yields it to the wife, right?
33:33
Whereas the ESV says the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband
33:44
does and the husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
33:48
So I think the important distinction there is that the individual person does have rights
33:56
in the NIV over their own body and they choose to allow the other person to also, I don't
34:05
like have rights over their own, but choose to let that person into an intimate space
34:11
as opposed to-
34:12
That was very well said.
34:13
Thank you.
34:14
I could have said it a lot worse.
34:15
I know.
34:18
As opposed to I don't have any authority over my body and I'm going to give it to you and
34:22
you're going to give it to me because-
34:26
Or not even give it to the other person, just like you have it.
34:29
I don't have authority over my body.
34:30
I just think that's open to some abuse.
34:32
So anyway, let's go back to Marge.
34:34
The two sections that she talks about in this article are 1 Corinthians 11 13 and Ephesians
34:41
5 23.
34:42
So those are the two uses of the head body metaphor.
34:47
So 1 Corinthians, she goes into that and she says it's not about marriage.
34:53
Now we use this segment in weddings all the time, right?
34:56
We love 1 Corinthians for that, but it's not about marriage.
35:00
She says it's about the appearances of men and women who pray and prophesy in Corinthian
35:05
assemblies.
35:07
So that's why most English translations use man and woman as opposed to husband and wife
35:11
in this verse because they're not talking-
35:13
About husband and wife.
35:14
Exactly.
35:15
They like to take one thing and make it a blanket over everything.
35:21
So 1 Corinthians 11, let's read from verse one here.
35:25
It says, and this is the CSB, is the translation.
35:29
It says, imitate me as I also imitate Christ.
35:32
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions
35:36
just as I delivered them to you.
35:38
Now this is Paul speaking.
35:40
Paul?
35:41
The whole time it's Paul speaking.
35:42
It's Alyssa speaking, not Paul.
35:46
And now this is verse 3.
35:47
But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head
35:50
of the woman and God is the head of Christ.
35:53
Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head.
35:58
So she says that in this, again, the Greek word here is kafele.
36:06
Nice pronunciation.
36:07
Thank you.
36:08
It's like you listened to a video right before we started shooting.
36:10
Well, I listened to you the whole time we were.
36:13
Kafele.
36:14
So when it says, but I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man and the man
36:19
is the head of the woman and God is the head of Christ.
36:22
So first of all, not talking about marriage, just talking about people, humans.
36:27
And again, here she's saying it's not talking about authority.
36:31
It's easy for us to read that and say authority.
36:34
Because that's our 2024 English speaking brain.
36:38
Exactly.
36:39
If you say I am the head of the company, that would mean you're the leader.
36:42
I'm the leader.
36:43
I'm the head of this family.
36:44
I'm the leader of the family.
36:45
I am the head of Brianna.
36:46
I'm the leader of Brianna.
36:48
Watch it, sister.
36:52
But that's not what it's saying here.
36:55
It's saying God created man and then he took man's rib and he created women.
37:01
Exactly.
37:02
So she's saying it's in this verse, it has a sense of firstness or origin.
37:08
Which again, firstness does not equal authority.
37:11
Well we talked about that in the last episode, that if firstness means authority.
37:16
Actually two episodes ago, three episodes ago.
37:18
It's unclear.
37:19
A while ago, guys.
37:21
I'm a submit to the dog.
37:22
I'll say it again.
37:25
All the animals were created first.
37:26
So if firstness really is the be all end all, humans were last.
37:33
Yeah, we should all be tree huggers.
37:34
I mean, submit to the fish in the sea, submit to the sun, submit to, you know, like everything
37:40
else came first.
37:42
The dirt in the ground.
37:44
You're really unimportant in that scenario.
37:48
So firstness for early church writers wouldn't have meant leadership.
37:54
It wouldn't have meant any of that.
37:56
Additionally, if we're talking about firstness, Christ didn't come first.
38:02
Christ came last, right?
38:04
He put himself last, not first.
38:07
Just saying.
38:08
Deep.
38:09
Thank you.
38:10
That's what I was going for.
38:11
So then the other verse that she talks about is Ephesians 5.23, right?
38:14
Now this one is about marriage.
38:17
And she says that it's amazing to her that the church has a strong doctrine of male headship
38:23
because of this verse.
38:24
So Ephesians 5.23, so let's read that.
38:27
Now we've read this already, but because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ
38:30
is the head of the church, he is the savior of the body.
38:34
She says, note that nowhere in scripture does it teach that the man is the head of the house
38:39
or family.
38:40
This is specifically talking about the wife.
38:43
Now she goes on to talk about why that's not what it means too, but it doesn't say that
38:48
he is the head of the family.
38:49
It does not say that he's the decision maker or that he has more spiritual authority or
38:56
spiritual responsibility.
38:59
I hear that all the time.
39:03
That has been interpreted so wrong in so many ways, like all the weddings that we've been
39:07
to or church services that we've been to.
39:10
Just because you are a man, because you have, you pushed out your boy parts in the womb,
39:20
just because you had the strength to push out your boy parts in the womb, doesn't mean
39:26
that you are more spiritual or more wise or anything over me.
39:32
Well, I feel like I've gotten that thrown at me countless times that you didn't push
39:36
out your boy parts in the womb.
39:38
No, not that part.
39:40
I've never heard anyone say that to you.
39:42
You said it just yesterday.
39:45
You're right, I did.
39:48
It's like, Alyssa, you have no authority here.
39:56
Something's gone wrong.
40:00
Maybe they just didn't have the strength to push out their boobies in the womb.
40:09
They didn't have the strength to suck it back in.
40:18
Anyway, I've had that said to me before men have said this to me, I'll say specifically.
40:25
When I get to heaven, I am more responsible for the spirituality of my family than my
40:31
wife is.
40:32
But where does it say that?
40:34
Give me a verse.
40:36
Ephesians, literally, even if you forget the Greek, all it says is the husband is the head
40:43
of the wife.
40:44
Why does that automatically mean now I have a place of authority in my entire family?
40:50
And we're not just talking kids, we're talking grandkids.
40:53
Like, he's this superior figure and he is the head of the whole family.
40:59
And I want to go back to that one verse, I forget what it was, but we've said it a couple
41:03
times where it was like, yes, the first woman was born from man, but don't you forget every
41:11
other man after that was born from woman.
41:14
We've referenced it many times.
41:16
So that's Paul as well.
41:19
Turning things upside down.
41:22
Saying what was expected at the time and saying this is terrible.
41:28
This is terrible.
41:29
This is not what God wanted for you.
41:32
Both men and women were created in the image of God.
41:36
Both have equal value to God and you should treat each other as such.
41:42
And on top of that, we talk a lot about how this impacts women because we are women and
41:48
that is our experience.
41:49
I am a woman.
41:50
Hear me roar.
41:52
We talk about how this impacts women because we're women and that's the experience that
41:55
we have.
41:57
But the system as it is now is not beneficial to men either.
42:03
It seems like it is because...
42:06
Power and authority.
42:07
Yeah, it sounds great.
42:09
But practically as human people, we need interaction.
42:14
We need support.
42:15
We need love.
42:17
All of us, men and women require that.
42:21
Now I've heard many people say that women need love and men need respect.
42:28
As though the other person doesn't need those things too.
42:33
Men need love and women need respect.
42:36
And we need to stop lying to our boys and our men and saying that they're not allowed
42:41
to have emotions.
42:43
They're not allowed to want love.
42:45
They're not allowed to cry.
42:48
We're just dehumanizing men.
42:53
If you have to be the leader a hundred percent of the time, when do you get to break down?
43:00
When do you get to fail?
43:01
You have to believe that there's so much anxiety and depression.
43:04
If you feel like I have to succeed, I have to be the best at everything I do.
43:12
And if I fail, I screw over not just me, but my entire family.
43:16
And God.
43:17
Well, they say men are way less likely to seek counseling, to seek therapy and talk
43:24
to someone.
43:25
In large part because of this toxic masculinity attitude, this is not benefiting anybody.
43:33
When you look at marriages, Christian marriages, sincerely I have yet to see a submissive marriage
43:39
that functions in a healthy way.
43:43
Not ever in my life.
43:45
And we've been surrounded by them.
43:48
Left right up down.
43:51
If this was God's perfect plan, and I feel like we harp on this, but if this was God's
43:56
perfect plan, why would he make it so hard?
44:00
Why would he make it detrimental to women and men?
44:06
When he made us because he loved us.
44:10
He loves women.
44:12
He loves men.
44:13
It doesn't make sense.
44:14
I think we forget that so often, particularly in the more Baptist conservative traditions.
44:22
We take the love out of it.
44:24
We do.
44:25
We absolutely do.
44:26
We forget that God created us in love and care.
44:30
We replace love with rules and regulations.
44:34
Absolutely.
44:35
Because your faith and spirituality is completely tied to how well you follow those rules.
44:42
Well, it seems a little bit more comfortable on the surface if all I have to do is follow
44:47
X, Y, and Z.
44:49
But it's impossible.
44:50
And it says it in the Bible.
44:52
We were born sinners.
44:54
But because of God, we're able to have that relationship because Jesus died on the cross
45:00
for me and you and my brother and my dad.
45:03
We're all on equal footing.
45:05
And it's simple.
45:06
That's the thing is it's so simple.
45:10
God Christ's love and he will guide you in the path that he wants you to go in.
45:16
He will give you passion for the things that he wants you to do, just like he's given you
45:19
and I a passion for this particular project.
45:23
And I believe that he is leading us down each episode.
45:28
We've talked through a lot of topics and sometimes I feel like, oh man, we're just going off
45:32
the rails.
45:33
Oh yeah.
45:34
Today in particular, we're going a little off the rails.
45:37
But at the same time, things keep happening that affirm to us that this was the topic
45:43
we were supposed to talk about today.
45:45
Yeah, absolutely.
45:46
And something that we're saying right now is going to speak to someone else.
45:51
It's just simple.
45:53
Sometimes following God, most of the time following God is just easy.
45:59
Not because the thing you're doing is easy, but because the faith should just flow out
46:04
of you.
46:05
And marriage should be easy.
46:10
Not because the day to day life of marriage is easy, not because fighting with your spouse
46:15
is easy or having differences of opinions is easy, but because what marriage is supposed
46:20
to be should just flow through you.
46:23
And I think it's hard to speak to that from my perspective too, because I'm not married.
46:29
But maybe that's why I'm not married is because it seemed so hard.
46:34
It seems like the conservative Christian world makes it look impossible.
46:39
There's not a lot of love there.
46:41
Now I do have some good, like mom and dad, they love each other.
46:47
But I wouldn't want that for myself.
46:50
I don't want a man thinking that he's just a leader over me.
46:53
I want a man who's a partner who cares, loves and respects me as much as I do for him.
46:59
Do you perchance want a man who stands beside you?
47:03
Not in front of or behind me.
47:05
Is that Shania Twain?
47:06
No.
47:07
Who is that?
47:08
It's Jodie Messina.
47:09
It's an old one.
47:10
I gave me a man who was holding me, not on me.
47:14
Thank you.
47:15
I needed you to sing at least once.
47:16
And I'll give all the love.
47:17
That's a good song.
47:18
That is a good song.
47:19
I think it's on the playlist.
47:21
I think that's so important because no one wants to walk into a relationship, even people
47:28
who believe wholeheartedly in female submission, no one wants to walk into a relationship where
47:34
they feel devalued or where they feel less than.
47:38
Like property.
47:39
Yeah.
47:40
Nobody wants that.
47:43
Even if you are like hook, line and sinker as a woman, I should be submitting to my husband.
47:49
Whatever.
47:50
Even if you're all the way down the path.
47:52
I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I can't imagine that any of those women are
47:56
picturing their lives and they're thinking, yeah, this is going to suck.
48:01
Well, we're obsessed with romance, like rom-coms and romantic movies and books and stuff.
48:10
Why do you think people are obsessed with that?
48:12
They're obsessed with the idea of love and not just authority.
48:17
And breaking down that word of love because Paul calls men to love their wives.
48:24
So let's break down that word of love to be cherished.
48:29
It's to be truly adored.
48:32
I think we simplify it so much by saying, well, you should put this person's needs above
48:37
your own.
48:38
You should die for them.
48:39
You should whatever.
48:40
But think about not just the act of that because actions are fairly simple, right?
48:48
But again, for something to flow through you instead of, all right, this is such a drudgery.
48:55
I'm going to put this person's needs above my own to cherish that person enough.
49:01
Of course I'm going to put them above me.
49:04
For example, Nathan, my husband, every single morning gets up with the kids.
49:09
It's summertime now.
49:10
So my daughter's out of school and it's a rough time over here, guys.
49:17
It's like boredom.
49:19
We're working through the early summer boredom where we figure out what the schedule for
49:24
the rest of the summer is going to be.
49:26
And so the kids get up so early and I am not a morning person.
49:33
I don't talk in the morning.
49:34
Don't interact with me in the morning.
49:36
I know I'm the worst.
49:37
You'd think we would be because we go to bed so early, but no.
49:41
Have you ever heard some, I think it was on a meme.
49:43
It was like, I'm not a night owl or an early bird.
49:48
I'm an always tired pigeon or something.
49:51
I think I see that.
49:53
I'm an always tired pigeon.
49:56
So Nathan gets up in the mornings with the kids every single morning because he knows
50:01
that's rough on me.
50:03
Like that I just, I don't get up and function well and he's got to get up for work.
50:06
So he gets the kids up and they all go downstairs and my daughter puts some pancakes that I've
50:10
pre-made into the toaster and they all just hang out for a little while while I become
50:15
human.
50:19
And I think that's what it's talking about.
50:22
It sounds so simple.
50:23
It sounds so silly, but to love someone enough that just putting them ahead of yourself is
50:29
just natural.
50:30
And I guess that's what I think marriage should be.
50:34
And so often it's not, and it's not even an expectation.
50:39
I think if you're going with what God wants, it should be good, right?
50:45
It should be the best God has to offer.
50:49
Not to say that following God doesn't have its trials and tribulation, but look for the
50:54
good, find the good.
50:56
And God's perfect plan, we use that phrase all the time.
51:00
So God's perfect plan, as in what he wanted humanity to be before sin entered the world.
51:07
God's perfect plan should be easy.
51:09
It should be perfect.
51:12
So if this is God's perfect plan for marriage, we shouldn't have a bunch of women, miserable,
51:17
writing blog articles on, you know, I thought submission was going to be terrible, but I
51:23
guess now that I'm living in it, nobody died.
51:30
And that's the best thing that you can say about your marriage is like, it's alright.
51:35
It makes me sad because I think Christians are getting divorced, I believe statistically
51:41
at a higher rate than non-Christians.
51:44
And it's because of this garbage.
51:46
It's because of this stupidness.
51:50
If this was God's perfect plan, it would work.
51:54
God isn't stupid.
51:55
Whoa, watch your mouth.
51:59
God didn't make a bad plan for us.
52:01
He made a good plan for us because he loves us.
52:05
And we're choosing to make it complicated.
52:08
That's what humans do.
52:12
So let's stop.
52:14
That's right.
52:15
You've heard it here first.
52:16
We're stopping.
52:17
Well, we are.
52:18
I don't know what you're doing over there.
52:20
So anyway, back to the cycle.
52:24
So our good friend Marge, in her conclusion, she says that headship is a term that does
52:28
not appear in the Bible, yet male headship or male authority has been part of the church's
52:33
dogma for centuries.
52:34
This is because many have interpreted scripture while being influenced by the prevailing patriarchal
52:39
culture.
52:40
That's not easy to say.
52:42
No, it's not.
52:44
God has tolerated patriarchy in the past and he continues to tolerate it.
52:48
But true equality and mutuality are the biblical ideals that kingdom people should be aiming
52:53
for and aspiring to.
52:56
Male headship and male primacy do not reflect the gospel message of freedom and equality
53:00
for all people.
53:03
I want to just hang out there real quick.
53:06
Freedom and equality for all people.
53:08
Freedom in Christ.
53:09
We talk about that all the time.
53:11
But we are not free in the way that we've set up marriage.
53:16
And I think that's true for women and for men.
53:20
If we're stuck in these boxes that we've created for ourselves and you have to be this type
53:26
of woman or you have to be this type of man, there is no freedom in that.
53:32
It's pretty hard for God to use you when you're sitting in a box.
53:36
Throughout this article, I love how she takes everything that we've thought, she addresses
53:42
it, and then she says, okay, but if you really look at what Paul actually wrote in the language
53:50
that Paul was speaking in, here's what he said.
53:54
And I don't know how you can refute that.
53:56
You can't.
53:57
Okay, if you have the opportunity to look up her blog, there are so many articles in
54:02
here that are so well researched.
54:06
I think everybody should do this kind of research.
54:10
Figure out why the Bible is saying what you think it's saying.
54:16
Dig deep into it.
54:17
Research it.
54:18
Look at people like Marge and Beth and Sheila.
54:22
I think they're great sources.
54:24
I think for so many of us, our interaction with the Bible is church on Sunday and maybe
54:31
doing your daily devotions where you read from our daily bread.
54:37
That takes me back to a place.
54:40
There's got to be a song that starts with that.
54:42
I just walked in and found you here without that look up on your face.
54:45
Thank you.
54:46
So you might do your little devotional and read a couple of verses or whatever, but you
54:50
essentially just hear what that devotional or that pastor tells you about it.
54:57
And that can really create a lot of bias.
55:01
So you do see a lot of this gender bias because that's what they want you to hear.
55:07
I don't want to have this like, they want this, but at the same time, that's what the
55:11
patriarchal structure that has taken over so much of the church wants you to hear.
55:17
I would consider this kind of research and digging deep into these topics, that is also
55:24
devotional.
55:25
That's also spending time with God.
55:28
When you're researching these things, first of all, this article in itself has lots of
55:32
verses in it, but jump out of the article and read the whole passage because that's
55:37
so important to read the whole thing in context.
55:41
Sometimes on the podcast, we'll pull out just a verse because we're only here for an hour
55:46
and I don't know how to read.
55:54
And be in prayer while you're reading these things.
55:57
There's a podcaster that I listened to, I think she doesn't have her podcast anymore,
56:02
but her name is Blessing.
56:04
And she talks about similar to what we're talking about now, but she said she's in constant
56:10
communication with God.
56:12
It's not just a prayer that she prays before she eats and before she goes to bed, her whole
56:17
life.
56:18
She's just talking to God in her head, like her inner dialogue.
56:23
And I think that's a really cool way to think about it.
56:25
You are supposed to have a relationship with God.
56:28
And if you're stifling that relationship to only include Sundays and 10 minutes for a
56:34
devotional, it's not as impactful as it could be.
56:37
I think the church has instilled a lot of fear.
56:39
And you can see this through history where the Catholic Church didn't for a long time
56:43
want their people to read the Bible.
56:47
They wanted it to be interpreted through the priests.
56:49
And I think that in a lot of ways, the Protestant Christian Church has done the same thing.
56:55
They don't say don't read your Bible, but it's don't really look any further than the
57:00
actual pages of your Bible.
57:02
Read the words as I've interpreted them for you and don't question them.
57:08
Don't look into the history of it.
57:09
Don't look into the Greek roots of the words.
57:12
Don't look into any of those things.
57:14
Just read the pages.
57:15
It'll be fine.
57:17
And so you do wind up with all this bias.
57:19
And I think we do it and I've heard some people say this where like, well, that's going to
57:25
distort the Bible if you look up the history, if you look up whatever.
57:29
But I think it makes it more miraculous.
57:32
It's real.
57:33
Yeah.
57:34
And when you can read it the way that it was originally intended to the people it was originally
57:39
intended to, that's powerful.
57:41
Because we can pick up on things like Paul talking to a very patriarchal society and
57:47
taking things from the time, writing out exactly what that person said, what that philosopher
57:53
said or whatever, and saying, no, this is stupid.
57:56
Yeah.
57:57
We're going to fix this.
57:58
And if you don't have any historical context, you don't know that it was a Greek philosopher
58:03
or a Roman philosopher or whoever that said the first thing.
58:07
You don't know that.
58:08
You don't know that.
58:09
But the people in Paul's time would have known that.
58:10
So it's important to jump back.
58:13
And it just makes the Bible so much richer.
58:15
And I think we're missing out in a lot of ways if we don't do that.
58:18
We want to be wealthy with knowledge as well.
58:21
So I think we'll wrap it up now.
58:22
Yeah.
58:23
You have anything else to say?
58:24
You have more songs to sing?
58:25
No, but I don't like the way you said wrap it up after we've been talking about pushing
58:29
out our private parts.
58:32
You have made- it's not me.
58:34
You have made like 12 inappropriate jokes.
58:36
But yeah, so we will see you guys next week.
58:39
We hope you've been enjoying our mini episodes as well.
58:41
I think two will have gone out by this point.
58:45
And we hope you've been enjoying them.
58:46
We wanted to break up some of the really intense heaviness of the bigger episodes.
58:53
Also because my brain just can't take it.
58:55
Yeah.
58:56
So we're doing mini episodes on current- I don't want to say current events.
59:00
No, just like whatever suits our fancy.
59:04
And we're trying to record them a little bit more in real time so that we can talk about
59:10
things like Harrison Bucker's speech and-
59:13
But Kurt.
59:14
You know, see, I cut that out of the last episode.
59:21
And things like that so that you can hear just our opinions on things and our thoughts.
59:25
And those ones aren't as research based.
59:28
They're just kind of fun for us to do.
59:29
Yeah.
59:30
And we like to chat.
59:31
We like to chat.
59:32
I don't know if you've noticed.
59:35
Perhaps it's been unclear.
59:36
Oh, wait, follow us on Instagram and TikTok.
59:40
Brianna is very funny on TikTok.
59:42
I'm brilliant.
59:43
So if you search, it's we dot r dot more dot four.
59:49
No dot after the four.
59:50
I don't know.
59:51
We dot more dot more dot-
59:52
No, you did that before.
59:55
We dot r dot more four.
59:59
I'm sure if you look up like we are more something, it'll pop up.
1:00:04
We hashtag we are more a lot.
1:00:05
So if you hashtag it and then you then we're there.
1:00:09
Follow us over there.
1:00:10
We're pretty funny.
1:00:11
We don't really understand how to work TikTok, but I'm getting there.
1:00:12
She's figuring it out quickly.
1:00:13
She's brilliant.
1:00:14
Okay, love you.
1:00:15
Bye.
1:00:16
Love you.
1:00:17
Bye.