Latest / Unbox Yourself: Coming Out Later in Life with Samantha Fox® / What If I'm Wrong? Coming In Before Coming Out
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- Samantha Fox: Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. Hello and welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. Today I am joined by a dear friend and also a fellow clinician named Segal. She has been on the podcast before where we talked about coming out later in life and having children today we have a beautiful conversation about out ⁓ Hello, my dear friend, Sogol. So happy to have you on the podcast today. Welcome. From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, Sogol: Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me. Samantha Fox: Yeah, so, oh gosh, we have so many exciting topics to talk about. We'll have to do more than one episode to cover them all. But the one that I think we landed on today is about coming out. You're a late bloomer like me, and you came out back in 2017. And as you were sharing with me, when you came out the first two years, Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory? and how coming out is really like coming into yourself. Seagull shares her journey asks some great questions and has ⁓ beautiful reflections ⁓ that leads ⁓ us just a ⁓ rich conversation about what it's like be a woman ⁓ in today's world and to come into sexuality. sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. You were in a space of coming out to yourself. And then after that, starting in 2019, you started to come out to the world. And I want to hear a little bit more about this time where you were realizing you were in a marriage, in a straight marriage, and realizing that you were having these feelings of later in life. I hope you enjoy the episode. Thanks so much for being here. same-sex attraction and slowly coming out to yourself, which like to call you are coming in to yourself. Yeah. And I'm really specifically interested in in your process, because I hear this from so many women that are in that space where they're starting to come into their realization, ⁓ Sogol: that. Samantha Fox: and they start really focusing on having an experience and needing to have an experience with a woman in order for them to really almost like believe and stop self-doubting that they're having these feelings. So I'm curious from you if that was a part of your process and if not, you know, why? Like, what was there instead that that had you not ⁓ and feeling like, well, first, you need to be in a full relationship to really know Sogol: Yeah, that's a good point. And I like that term, coming in to myself instead of coming out. And I think that's an important piece. For me, particularly, I think was ⁓ connected my own inner self I came out to myself for me was more like I'm more connected to my whole self. I'm connected more to my anger, to fear, to my sadness, to my sensuality. And I think sensuality or sexuality, we tend to think of that something outside of us. So I felt like whole that way. When the last piece for me was sexuality. And you and I know ⁓ the like most mostly the, you know, compulsory normativity being for myself being the firstborn, the good girl of the family, all of that played a role. But I think I had I had enough. wisdom or there was a voice to confirm that, oh boy, you are so lesbian. There is no going back. You are so gay. And what do we do now? Samantha Fox: You are so gay! Sogol: you know it was a good freak out it was such a good relief it was so complex but the first feeling was half of my anxious evaporated i was no longer that anxious little girl when i ⁓ an conflict i resolved it i'm like That's what I wanted to be on the outside, but this is what was happening on the inside. And I fully accepted it. And I had this aha moment. In addition to many sensations around certain people, not that many, a felt feeling really sensual and sexual and wanting to take care of myself. in a sensual way without being with anybody just being around attractive women or you know like that it's an energy right it's an energy it sometimes it's not as explicit but it depends on the person but for me i knew that and then because it was so new i needed to that with my therapist ⁓ And think we should be very lucky when we're struggling with these issues that we're not dealing with a therapist who's lacking capacity in these areas, which was unfortunately my experience. I she helped me with many different things, but this was not her place or maybe she had some internal isomorphobia, who knows. a lovely person, but she was really blind to this part of me. And I said that to her and maybe she was trained that way. I said, you know, I kind of feel that what I feel around women is more than just me admiring them. And I'm sensing things more sensually and sexually. And the energy shifts in me. It's such a lively energy. I rarely experienced that and I want it. want more of it. And I'm not, I'm not with anybody. You know, I'm just all of a sudden feeling that. Um, and of course there were people I admired, but I was not in a relationship with them. so she said, okay, you're married now and you need to get on a dating app and you need to make sure that you're certain about this because once toothpaste is out you can it back in and as she said that I'm thinking yeah I can I'm trying to put it back in in my mind and so I was offended by that. said you need to try. It didn't feel well. It didn't sit well with me. But I had, thankfully, I had enough ego resources or like, you know, inner ⁓ or wisdom to rely on trust. And was like, that's no helpful. Like she is longer helpful and I need a different therapist. Maybe I a lesbian therapist. Samantha Fox: Trust. Sogol: And I found a lesbian, contacted a colleague of mine, like, you I need to see someone ⁓ in community because who doesn't know me gets complicated and introduce someone to me, a lesbian therapist. And I go to her and I said, I don't know, I'm really struggling. I don't if I'm gay. But I have these thoughts. And the first thing she says was, is that why you picked a lesbian therapist? It was the best mirroring ever. like, oh, say what? What? Lesbian? Repeat after me. Right. So I didn't have the experience. I felt it inside. And then working with her kind of solidified that you are who you are. And you get to choose that. Even her, she didn't give me a label. She said, whether you land on lesbian or bi, she didn't say straight. That was smooth. Samantha Fox: haha Yes. Sogol: You are who you are. And you'll figure that out. are you ready to date? That was her next question. said, Oh my gosh, no, no, I don't want to put myself out there. This is too scary. I don't want to do it. I'm married and then all these thoughts. I'm like, Whoa, what's going to happen to my daughter? What's going to happen to him? So it's complex experience. But for me to know that I'm gay, didn't have a person outside of me to try. the advice that was given, go out and try. What are we trying? I mean, we can try in our mind. That worked. Right. Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, there's always fantasizing, which so many of the women that contact me share that they have lots of fantasies, even while they're having sexual intimacy with their male partners, they're fantasizing that they're with a woman. Right? So these are signs that this is what you're desiring. And, you know, that you Sogol: Yeah. Samantha Fox: you can trust that, that that is real, that is coming from you. so, right, so it's not... Sogol: I mean, we can we can comment on the person's outside of their ⁓ orientation sexuality. How comfortable they are with their whole self, right? Like how comfortable they are with their inner world in terms of their feelings, needs, desires. And there's often Samantha Fox: Yes. Sogol: I don't know, talk about how gay people are highly traumatized. Is that true? Or is it because the community is smaller, you see more of that? you know. Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I do think that it's that it is a more traumatized population. Sogol: Why wouldn't it be? There's not enough support on the outside. Samantha Fox: Right. Right. Right, and also because of compulsory heterosexuality, which creates homophobia, creates internalized homophobia, they have been discriminated and stigmatized even if they haven't experienced that on a personal level. Like if they're lucky enough to have never experienced that on a personal level, it still exists in a societal level. So ⁓ when know from the time you're really, really young, And you have to go through all those years of middle school and high school where people are calling each other names and whatnot. you're hearing, you know, everyone make fun of this girl and call her a dyke or call her a lezzie or whatever, and kind of laughing about her. And you know that you have those feelings. There parts of you that will really try to. shut that down or be very critical of you or find other ways to not feel the discomfort like addiction. ⁓ Right. So like there are so many reasons why who grew up in community have really suffered because of compulsory heterosexuality. I mean, that construct is what has created their suffering. ⁓ And so trauma is certainly more Sogol: Exactly. Yeah. Thanks, Samantha Fox: um, abundant, I think in the LGBTQ community. And yeah, I hear what you're saying. you didn't grow up in that. and it sounds like you were already in therapy. So when you came into this conscious awareness about your sexuality, you were already in a place where you were trusting your emotions, whatever they were, if you were angry, if you were sad, like you were able to give, weight to what you were feeling instead of try to numb it out somehow or ignore it or, you know, pretend that you were fine or whatnot or just continue people pleasing. And so part of that might be why it was, I don't know, like easier to contend with these feelings when they came up and to not try to numb them out. Sogol: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's another of feelings to have loving feelings to have desire to have. You about this, you know, in your podcast all the time. hear you say that like it's not something out there. It's part of our integrated self. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yes. Sogol: And because of all the cultural and societal stuff, gets a little And then if don't have enough mirroring on the outside, you don't have enough validation from the community, from the society, then you're, and then you're more vulnerable to that. You know, some personalities are more vulnerable to that. You know, people, some people are more pleasers or like I was a first born, I was a good kid. So I was more vulnerable to being a good kid and do the things that my parents liked and. do what's normal and what's common. ⁓ Samantha Fox: And so, and that's why you think it took you till later. Sogol: For sure, yes. I wasn't safe enough to say this is who I am within myself. And once I kind of built that safety within, and sexuality was part of it. It was more like across the board with all, whole of feelings, right? ⁓ Madness in like I struggled with mad. I never felt mad. Samantha Fox: Yes. Yes, yes. Sogol: I grew up with a lovely father who had temper issues and he felt it all for me I didn't have to feel that and I was disconnected from madness, healthy madness. So it took me a while and then I'm fully connected to it now. Samantha Fox: Rage, real rage. Yeah, yeah. I hear this though. I do hear this from others that, you know, once they step into doing the work and going to therapy, that as they're starting to get more and more connected to themselves, that's when these feelings come to the surface. And yeah, and as women, like there's so many reasons why Sogol: real page. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Samantha Fox: we're not able to connect to that based on the ways that society has told us that we're supposed to be and expected to be if we want to be worthy and valuable the beginning of time. Like this is the air we're breathing. So to into doing that work with yourself is really Like for those of you out there that are listening and you know having these feelings, but you're really doubting them and kind of like gaslighting yourself and feeling like, well, yeah, like I have these feelings, but how do I really know? Or another one I hear is what if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? Like I don't even. Yes. you are having these feelings. You have had these feelings, like for, for some, some clients, you've had these feelings from the beginning of time. Sogol: self-doubt. Samantha Fox: And now you're scared that you might be wrong. I mean, wow, like so sad, you know? Sogol: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: So, so ⁓ you, so you went from this place of, coming into this as a part of, being in your whole being and your whole self, you came into yourself. It sounds a little bit like, I don't know, like a spiritual awakening of some kind to like really have this energy moving through you. ⁓ And... Sogol: Yeah. And so that, sorry, that was the, it was the energy that drove me. And, know, I think you and I were talking about how, you know, people try to rationalize and negotiate try to figure this out logically. It doesn't work. And I did that. It didn't work until was a force within me, which the drive and the desire to be with a woman that was much stronger than all of this logical stuff. Samantha Fox: Good. Good. Sogol: And I kind of let that guide me. mean, land well, I regret it. I am who I am today because of that experience. ⁓ I didn't have the bestest experience with the first woman, but it an experience. ⁓ Or maybe we all have all these ideals of how our relationship is supposed to go on it. You see, that's boxed way of thinking about that. ⁓ Samantha Fox: Yes. Yeah, when you say it didn't land, well, what does that mean? Mm-hmm. It's folks about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sogol: Part of, I think I told you earlier, being queer, it's so beautiful in a and you know, think we have a privilege in a way that we have lived the straight life and then we live as a queer person now more authentically. To see that, wow, if we want, we have that autonomy and flexibility and freedom to choose and we don't have to go by all the... boxed ways safety and security which creates a lot of fear but hopefully you learn to regulate a little bit of that. So for me the driver was the joy. It was no longer logic because if I had to sit down and justify do the pros and cons of course the hetero life would would have won but That's not what I wanted. ⁓ And with the experiences with women, I learned, I want this person. I want that. such a thing as wanting someone. It's not a real desire. And then it's magical when it's reciprocated. It's very agonizing when it's not, but. Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. I hear like real But it's so interesting, right? Because it's such a flip of what just said is such a flip of what we learn and what we really Certainly for me, which is that it's all about being desired. Like that was what I learned was I am a powerful woman. I believe this. I am a very powerful woman. Sogol: same. Yes. Samantha Fox: because I am desired by men, like really desired. Like it is clear they are desiring me and the more they desired me, the more power I Sogol: Yes. ⁓ Yes. Samantha Fox: And I also had no desire. there it was ⁓ Sogol: Were you aware of it at the time that you had no desire? You were not. Samantha Fox: No, no, that, didn't even come in for me because there was no value to having desire. I realized I didn't have desire. so very exciting to feel so powerful. But then once the conqueror was done and I got them, then I had no interest anymore. Sogol: Yeah. Samantha Fox: And so that was very interesting to me back then. Like, why am I not interested? Why am I not desiring them? Why, you know, like I'm good. Like I could be done now. You know, I, there's no interest. It's like flat, right? So what you're saying that, ⁓ you came yourself and like this feeling of desire. Sogol: Yes. Yes. Samantha Fox: and wanting and the energy of that was so enlivening and so amazing. Like what a great feeling. Sogol: Yes, so I wanted more of that. Samantha Fox: Yeah, which, like, yes, like, fuck yes for everybody. Who doesn't want that? But I think as women, because we conflate, attention and their desire somehow gets conflated with, with our desire, or our desire just doesn't even play in. It's like once we have the their attraction and desire, I don't know, like we don't Sogol: Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: don't even really think about whether they have desire. They just feel so amazing that they have this from a man. So this coming in is into your desire, which is so life-giving. Sogol: exactly. Yes. And as you're saying this, I'm reflecting on, see, it wasn't the desire for women that came first for me. realized, just I experienced a great degree of rage after a in my marriage. See, the rage I never experienced early on is showing up in my marriage. as result of not having my needs met for sensuality, emotional connection ⁓ mirrored as who I am on the outside, being for who I am. So that created a lot of rage. So I was in touch with the rage first. Samantha Fox: Yes! Sogol: And then I think after that, you know, we talk about as in therapy work, we talk about how when you're in touch with the unpleasant feelings, the more you go deeper with that, then the more you can experience the more pleasant feelings. So I'm just thinking that now, like the rage I experienced then after math of that was it got me connected more to my desire. Just realize that. Yeah. Samantha Fox: I love that. So cool. What a great discovery. a great awareness. Yeah. Yeah. Sogol: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and if people are, don't know, sitting there thinking, should I leave? Should I stay? Because I think you talked about that, right? I don't think it's a... It's a problem to, it's not a logical problem to solve with logic. It's experiential. First of all, internally, you have to embody that. You have to feel that inside. And once you experience it to the degree that, I don't know, most of us do, you're like, I don't want to go back to that. Thank very much. Samantha Fox: Right. And I want to say, you know, for people out there listening that there are so many ways that can look. So because not everybody has the ability to separate, ⁓ if you have children, not everybody can afford multiple homes ⁓ kids go back and forth. If you have children, you know, so there are Sogol: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Samantha Fox: many ways to go about this coming into yourself and realizing, know, that you don't want to go back to what you were in. And that comes into maybe a little bit like, like relationship anarchy, where you look at your, you know, relationship that you have been in, if you're someone who isn't ready to make a move towards like an actual divorce, and you look at like what, has been sustaining about this relationship, like what is good about this relationship? And they're, you know, in my bi-life community, I have a number of women who are somewhere in this in-between space. So they are married, they are still living together, you know, but they have arrangements going on where each of them are getting their needs met, you know, some needs from each other, some needs outside the relationship. You know, so there is, yeah, there's a whole spectrum here of how Sogol: Yes. Yes. Samantha Fox: how this can happen. I'm at a strong extreme, like mine was an extreme, mine was like, I'm gonna blow up my entire life. And I have no idea where any of the pieces are gonna fall and really in terror for a number of years because of the way I did it. You did it different. Sogol: and hope you really hard. I did it differently just because I didn't have the stamina to do that. I the openness from my ex to accept me and help me and support me. So I don't know if I could have done it without that support. I appreciate that you're bringing in the nuances because, you know, like myself, I thought, ⁓ my gosh, I'm gay and now I have to go blow up my life. And that's again, a very boxed way of thinking about that. And you know, ⁓ doing this wonderful work now for people to hear this and to validate that you don't have to do it that way. There are many different ways. is the beauty of being queer. We have a blueprint. We'll figure it out on our own. Everyone figures out their own blueprint as you go, it can be scary. That's why you're doing all these wonderful work and setting examples and bringing together to share their experiences that way. Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It is scary. And I like to kind of offer the for now perspective, right? you said finding your way, you don't have a blueprint, you're finding your way as you go. And I like to say for now, meaning like today or this week, but like next week, you'll figure out next week, you know, because that's sometimes how it needs to go. And, you know, many things we can't do that way, like, you know, Sogol: Yes. for now. Yeah. Samantha Fox: like you're getting your PhD. right, you know what the goal is at the end and you know what that whole process is going to look like. Maybe not feel like, but you know what it's going to look like. Most things in life don't really look like. Sogol: Sorry. Thanks. No, a timeline with PhD. You lose scholarship and you have to finish it within a certain time. ⁓ But it's to give yourself choice. If you can, right, it's hard. out, like I like what you mentioned, are different ways to figure out different needs within the same setting. ⁓ Samantha Fox: Right. Right. Hmm? Mm-hmm? Sogol: ⁓ and I think that takes a lot of emotional maturity to be frank. It takes a lot of work we a therapist, we had a couple of therapists who helped us through that. So that was helpful. ⁓ so, we don't go to black and white either divorce and sell the house and like move the kid around. And I couldn't it. Like it was just a lot of pressure. Samantha Fox: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Sogol: Yeah, and then meeting different people in the community who were married, but they made arrangements with the emotional maturity of both parties to make things work. And then, ⁓ yeah. Samantha Fox: Yes. Yeah. And that emotional maturity is going to off when you start having other relationships I think the work is just you know, no matter what, like if this ⁓ you doing your work, you have a partner who is not interested in any part of this, they just want it to be Sogol: Yes. Samantha Fox: and they just want out and you just want out. That's also fair. Like there is nothing wrong with that. Right. But there are people who have the ability to stay connected and deep friendships where they can, you know, sustain more time together. So, and then you'll see like for now this is what it is and then you'll see what happens. So yeah, so I'm curious for you. I know you said the first, your first Sogol: So. Samantha Fox: relationship with a woman was difficult. prior to that relationship, you were a straight marriage. So you went straight marriage having this discovery, but still being in the marriage to having a relationship with a woman. ⁓ And that difficult and did not end up working out. And I'm just wondering anywhere along that if you ⁓ had Sogol: Yes. Samantha Fox: The other really common fear that I hear from women, which is, what if I end up alone? Sogol: made a mistake. wonderful, end of the I think I'm very okay with being alone so that didn't cross my mind. was kind of fantasizing at that point. I'm like, can these people leave me alone? Like all of them? Can I go to Mars? Samantha Fox: Hahaha! It would be to be alone. Sogol: it was more like, did I lose my ⁓ stable security life for ⁓ Is this with a So I started, my, my brain started to generalize. I was telling myself stories of if this is what it means to be with a woman. Samantha Fox: This meaning what? Sogol: I don't want to be with anybody. didn't say I want to go back to man. I didn't say I want to go back to the ex-husband no matter how safe and secure he was. said I don't want to go back to a man. I don't want to go back. He was a great person, a great friend, husband. But just he was straight and I was gay. One tiny problem. I had thought of Samantha Fox: Yes. Sogol: ⁓ boy, this is harder. maybe I had lacked education or exposure to the intensity of relationship with women in general. And ⁓ didn't that experience. Maybe that experience was something I learned. Samantha Fox: Yes. Sogol: not the sexuality piece to get like, well, it solidified it for sure. Like I had this internal realization and then I had this external validation or mirroring, which was like made me feel more whole, which confirmed more solidly in a way. then things got really tough in that relationship and you know, different personalities, we had different needs, we were very different. Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sogol: And I was not familiar with my own intensity when it comes to being with a woman. Like we both like to talk. We both like to share. We both are emotionally intelligent. you need to kind of pace that and learning as I move forward. It's know, sometimes we to take a break and I don't know, it's very different. Like you go and I listen and I listen and you go. We kind of like we don't we can't do this all the time. It's exhausting. It's exciting, but it's also exhausting. Samantha Fox: Yes. Yes. Sogol: ⁓ Samantha Fox: Very common, by the way, for those of you that have not entered into relationship with a woman as of yet, is this intensity of emotion. And, you know, when something does go sideways, the intensity of needing to be heard and wanting to share your side and wanting to like talk it through and wanting to talk it through again and wanting to talk it through again. Whereas, you know, a lot with men, I mean, this is what I hear and also was my experience. It's just like, I'm done talking about that. You know, I don't want to hear about this anymore. Like, why are we still talking about this? I said, I was sorry or whatever it is, That was kind of like, right, move on. Like you already said that. I heard you heard this, you know, with women, it just goes on. Sogol: No. Move on. Yeah, yeah. And partly, I mean, I don't want to get too scientific. We know oxytocin. We get two people, love hormones. You know, we go at it. We get attached too quickly. We share too quickly. mean, quickly. Quicker maybe than straight couples. Because there's a lot, a lot of exchange. So it's... Samantha Fox: Yes. Well, in a way, yes. Yes, and it's kind of like, it's a little bit of like a false safety, like very early. Sogol: Very, a false safety. I love that. Yes. And you're, know, the honeymoon phase is ⁓ kind of and you're left with own original wounds that you haven't touched. And then, ⁓ you know, depending the person's or yourself's capacity to want to look within and take ownership for it, then there can be progress, right? There can be more intimacy or compassionate love. Samantha Fox: Right. Sogol: or not or you decide that okay, well we'll go separate ways and this is the best this can offer Samantha Fox: or not. Right, and that, think what you just said is the, it's like the stuff of the fear of so many women that I speak to because like why, when I have a partner, I've got a male partner, we've built a life, his family is my family, my family is his family, we have children. You know, we've done all these things together. We grew up together, right? Why would I get into this intense that feels really good because all the hormones are flowing and it feels amazing. Why would I do that when there's a chance that like at the end of the honeymoon period, we could be like, yeah, no, you know. why would I take that chance to Sogol: Yeah, I had asked that. But I can tell you today, I know it's such a lived experience that you can't, I don't know, describe that for anybody and everyone has their own journey, as you say. You just have to be willing to. And if you're not willing to, then that's fine. Maybe you're not ready and that's okay. But once you have the lived experience, even it wasn't the most Samantha Fox: Yeah. Sogol: I have zero regrets. Samantha Fox: So afterwards, when you were alone, because this is again, alone is a big trigger word for people. When you were alone and the relationship ended, I you love being alone, but did feel like that then? Sogol: Yeah. Mm-hmm, yes. Well, when that ended, it was really hard because then I thought, oh my gosh, I'm never going to find anyone that I'm going to love. How am going to find a person and then all different kinds of self doubt about like, maybe I should have said this, maybe I should have tried harder, maybe I should have, I don't know, done this from the get go and things like that. Samantha Fox: Mmm. ⁓ Sogol: had thought all of that, the first years in particular. And then, you know, I had some really good friends, including yourself, you know, saying give yourself some time as a process. Until I worked that out, that grief had to get processed. And once I processed that grief, it took a long time. You talk about two and a half years, ⁓ mine took... years and eight months a little more than two and a half but once ⁓ that done then ⁓ my shifted and I felt like ⁓ my gosh I'm so happy for that experience I want be single now it's time be a single lesbian I'm enjoying that but forever again you know I had thoughts about that but then you know ⁓ I to kind of like doing the things I like more. And I mean, I was very, still very busy with work and my daughter and doing things I like. Now it's kind of getting to me and I'm like, okay, maybe once this PhD is like I really wanna explore and ⁓ wanna. Samantha Fox: start dating. Sogol: Start dating for sure, because that part of me, which is the adult need, you know, it's like showing up and it's kind of like saying hello and it's like, don't ignore me because I'm having these dreams and having these thoughts and feeling excited for it. It's not from a place of. I want to be with a woman. want I'm glad I live that and it's done and over with. It could been any woman at the time. so I'm so glad for that work and the growth. I experienced being single and single lesbian because forever I was in a relationship with a man and then a relationship with woman. And then experienced this period of three years of being, I I dated one or two women and that didn't work out. And then I thought to myself, Maybe I'm too picky, you you have all those thoughts. Maybe there aren't enough people or... ⁓ Samantha Fox: Where are the single lesbians that have done their work? Sogol: Yeah, and that has become big because I also reflected on that. Like, I want to be like yourself. That piece is important to me, you know, I'm able to talk about things outside of us, but also to able to talk about our dynamic us, things that are good and not so good, right? You have to done the work or have self awareness and not get too defensive. I mean, you can get defensive, but not too defensive. you block me out, right? Yeah, that's where I am now. So. Samantha Fox: And it's, I mean, and it is challenging. I mean, I believe it's challenging to find somebody who has done the work. I think there are definitely people who are willing to do the work. And so, you know, I mean, whenever two people come together, I mean, really, regardless of gender, you know, I mean, when you're straight, I guess you just. Sogol: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Samantha Fox: you can more easily fall into like heteronormativity and just sort of follow the roles. And maybe you feel like you don't really need to do that much work because you're just doing the roles. don't know, there, maybe there doesn't mean, ⁓ was that? It's, yeah, a script and you follow it and you just go along and you kind of know, and you know, you're with your girlfriends and they're all complaining about their husbands not listening to them. And everybody has the same. Sogol: It's an easier life. There's a script. Samantha Fox: plane but now they're going on vacation and you know it's it's just like a whole different universe. ⁓ Sogol: on cruises kitchen renovations and next week. ⁓ ⁓ Samantha Fox: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's a real different reality. And then trying to find a woman that's like done her work and is open and emotionally available and, you know, also takes care of herself and takes care of her life. you know, I mean, it's like women, you know, we we were talking earlier about how, you know, or in general, like gay people have been discriminated against, women have been discriminated against from the beginning of time, from the moment we're born, we're discriminated against. So women haven't had a lot of opportunity to themselves and do the work and really get to know themselves and know how to support themselves and take care of themselves because they're told they're gonna find a man that's gonna do all that for them. And that's what they go out and set out to do, a lot of women. Yeah, so it does it does affect the pool. Right. And that's real. Yeah. Sogol: Yeah. sure. And I can imagine a woman who has ⁓ like that and then realizes that they're gay with no necessarily no backbone in terms of career, like any type of earning for themselves, that would be a huge right? ⁓ Samantha Fox: That was me. I mean, that was me. I was traditional stay at home mom, no income, three kids under five. And I had no earning potential really of anything. I mean, I had stopped working when I was like 26. So at 32, I realized I was gay and I had no income and no earning potential. So it was. Sogol: You're such a role model though for many that you went from that to where you are. Samantha Fox: Yeah, and it was a brutal journey that's not for the faint of heart at all. And I would still do it. I would still go back and do it again. mean, of course I would change the earlier years so that I had more already going for me and I wouldn't have stopped working at 26. I would have kept working. Sogol: Yeah, of course. Yes, yes. Can I ask you what drove you to that kind of hardship? wasn't the hardship, suppose. Like working really hard to make a living and leaving that comfortable life you had. Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm. What was hard about that? Sogol: No, what was worth your while in terms of keep going? Samantha Fox: I mean freedom, like it's freedom. Like I am, am free. Nobody can tell me anything, nothing. Nobody has any say. can, I wear what I want. I can shave or not shave. can, you know, like I I can just do my life however I want to do it. And nobody has any say about anything, which is so freeing. Sogol: Yeah. Yeah. and you paid the price. Samantha Fox: paid the price. yes, definitely paid the price to get here. You know, and and I and I want to, you know, free as many more women as I possibly can, while I'm here in in ⁓ institute, you know. Sogol: Amazing. Little valuable what you do. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha Fox: Thank you. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing and just having these, you know, curiosity conversations where we just lean into the journey and, you know, different people's experiences and sharing our own. think it is just so valuable for those that are here and just really struggling, you know. This is not an easy journey. It is not. It's so complex. Sogol: Yeah, very complex. Samantha Fox: There's no one right path. No one can tell you exactly what you should do. This is all hap- it all has to come from you. ⁓ we've been programmed to have like really nothing come from us other than keeping everybody else happy, I like, you know, that's how we've been programmed. It is really hard to switch the script into really doing it. Sogol: Yeah. Yep. Samantha Fox: know, doing you and living from you and living what is going to fulfill you and whatnot. So yes, it is it is quite a journey. Sogol: For sure. thank you for having me and thank you for being open to my curiosity. mean, part of this insight came from what you shared with me earlier. So thanks for having me. Yeah. Awesome. I'd be happy to. You're most welcome. Samantha Fox: Yes, and we'll do it again. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.