Latest / The Swan Effect - Creating and Sustaining Your Financial Wellbeing / S5 E6 Don't Keep Them Guessing

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S5 E6 Don't Keep Them Guessing · The Swan Effect - Creating and Sustaining Your Financial Wellbeing

• 0:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Your legacy isn't just about numbers; it's about the confidence that comes with knowing your wealth is expertly managed. At Old Mutual Wealth, we offer solutions that go beyond investment management.
• 0:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're your trusted partner in achieving financial success.
• 0:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Together with your financial planner, we uncover what matters most to you, crafting a personalized plan tailored to your unique goals. Backed by a team dedicated to your wealth journey, we provide innovative strategies, in-depth research, and award-winning investment expertise. Partner with us to take your wealth further with advice-led, personalized wealth management, offering clients and financial planners a full suite of industry-leading investment solutions. Visit www.oldmutual.co.za/wealth to learn more. Hi there. I'm Arthi Rabikrisson.
• 1:05
  Malika Petersen: Hello. I'm Mallika Petersen.
• 1:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Welcome to
• 1:09
  Malika Petersen: the Swan Effect Podcast.
• 1:11
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're your go-to podcast to simplify the complexities of money management, investing, and wealth management,
• 1:19
  Malika Petersen: so that you can gain confidence in your relationship with money and become financially literate, independent, and free.
• 1:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That first step towards freedom is knowledge, and you can start with gaining that right now by listening to this upcoming episode. Hello, wonderful listeners, and welcome to our emerging out of winter. Well, we hope at least episode. Yeah, in South Africa at the moment, we've been layering up, but also finding some warmth in pockets as well with this weather. Hi, Malika.
• 1:54
  Malika Petersen: Hi, Arthi, and hi, listeners. Yeah, I think we've definitely starting to emerge out of the season of heaters, muttering thick socks.
• 2:02
  Malika Petersen: We had some Christmas in July.
• 2:08
  Malika Petersen: Yes, guys, that's becoming a a thing in the southern hemisphere. And I mean, of course, just pretending to get out of bed is a leadership development exercise, right?
• 2:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I love that exactly, but you know, I think this season is also teaching us something, Malika, and I think it's it's about how we prepare for it. You know, we pull out the blankets, we check the heaters, we layer up, we do the soup thing, make sure our kids are also layered up with their jerseys and things. It's not as if we actually just wake up on like the cold morning and say,"Oh, the cold is here now. How unexpected!
• 2:45
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, but I mean, to be fair, some people still do behave like that.
• 2:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: This is true.
• 2:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I think every every winter season catches somebody who's personally offended by it.
• 2:58
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely, but yeah, I like where you're going with this? Because winter can get uncomfortable, right? Which I mean, that is what it is. But that's not surprising. Winter comes, and I think because we know it comes, we can prepare, and that preparation makes it a lot easier to handle when it arrives.
• 3:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exactly. And today's episode is about another season of life that we do not like to think about everybody, but that also asks for preparation. Not because we're being morbid in any way, or not because we're calling it closer, but because when difficult seasons arrive, the people we love should not have to scramble in the cold without a blanket.
• 3:43
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful way to frame it. Right, today we are moving more deliberately into the death part of our debt, death, and taxes series. Right, but listeners, we're asking you, please don't run away. Please don't. It's not an episode about fear. Um, it's actually an episode about care.
• 4:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, yeah, I agree with that, Malika. We are calling today's episode.
• 4:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Everyone, don't leave them guessing. Okay,
• 4:11
  Malika Petersen: and think with the reason we want to do that is because when something happens, whether it's death, illness, an accident, sudden hospitalization, any kind of crisis, right? The people around us shouldn't have the added stress of worrying about the financial implications of that event.
• 4:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, I mean, we know how this plays out, don't we, Malika? Where are the documents? Who must we call? Is there funeral policy? Is there a will? What bills are going to come to you? Do we have access to accounts to to pay for that?
• 4:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: What happens to the children, the house, the car, the business, the pets, the debit orders? Oh, lots of questions.
• 4:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But what do we have to show for
• 4:51
  Malika Petersen: it? No, and I think I mean those those questions don't arrive when everybody's like calm and well rested and emotionally regulated. Enough to be able to make those really sound decisions, right?
• 5:03
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, definitely not. I mean, they arrive when people are already grieving, or shocked, exhausted, even just trying to hold the family together. It's such a roller coaster with so many loops and twists, upside down moments, and at a speed that really seems unthinkable.
• 5:21
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, so I want us to remember, listeners, that in the same way that you know winter kind of forces us to prepare before the coldest morning, this episode is asking you, what could you do to prepare now so that the people that you love are not left guessing later?
• 5:39
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Because death is emotional, but the aftermath is also administrative.
• 5:46
  Malika Petersen: Sure, Arthi, that attention is so real. I mean, it's bringing back memories from things on my side of the family.
• 5:54
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, for sure, and my side too as well, Malika.
• 5:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know, the reality is the administration takes weeks, if not months. In fact, years sometimes.
• 6:04
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that is the reality.
• 6:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Everyone, we are not saying this to be harsh in any way or judgmental in any way. That's not what we're thinking about here. What we're trying to say is because grief is heavy enough, that needs to be handled in its own. It's its own process. It's it's something you have to go through. But now your family should not also have to become detectives in this grieving process, right? Or in this process of shock or exhaustion as well.
• 6:32
  Malika Petersen: No, absolutely.
• 6:32
  Malika Petersen: I mean, they shouldn't have to go and search the drawers, look for old emails. You know, check WhatsApp messages, sitting countless calls into queues, look at bank statements. You know, kind of trying to figure out what exists and what you wanted to happen.
• 6:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exactly. So today we are not giving legal or financial advice. We're not doing a technical estate planning lecture. What we're talking about today is practical care-the simple information that your closest people need before they need
• 7:05
  Malika Petersen: it. Yeah, I think the episode is really just asking if something were to happen to you, would the people that you love know where to start?
• 7:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And everyone, if the honest answer is maybe not, then this episode is an invitation not to panic, not to do everything perfectly. It's an invitation to just begin.
• 7:26
  Malika Petersen: Arthi, let's start with the obvious question: Why do people avoid this this conversation so much until the very end?
• 7:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, I think there are a few reasons, Malika, for this. The first is, you know, death planning. Let's talk about that one. It feels like inviting death closer.
• 7:43
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, people start to think,"Oh, if I talk about it, I'm somehow going to make this even more real. So they avoid it, as if silence is some form of protection. But in reality, silence does not protect us from life. It only leaves people less prepared for when this life piece actually happens.
• 8:01
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think that's so true, and I also think that people associate planning with wealth, which is the biggest mistake, right? People often think estate planning is only for rich people. Wolves are only for people who own property or assets. Legacy folders are only for people with complicated assets and and and things that they own, and and reality is that people think that this is not for ordinary people who are just living their lives day to day to put food on the table. So the belief is, if people aren't venting, they're still paying debt, they're just building or living month to month, they assume that there's nothing to organize.
• 8:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I know it's almost like a whole set of myths around this, right? But you know what? Planning is not only about wealth. It's just about taking responsibility. So even if you don't own a house, if there are still people who may need to know who to call, you know, there's still accounts that exist. There are debt that exists, policies that exist, right? Even simple things as well. Where's my ID document, or where's my family member's ID document? Do I know what their wishes are? That ability to access this kind of important information can really, really reduce the stress that people can feel at this time.
• 9:18
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, sometimes the issue is not even death, right? I mean, we we talking about worst case scenario, but I mean, it could be an accident, an illness, sudden hospitalization, or just a period where you can't speak for yourself or manage your own affairs, right? People need to know what to do. Then,
• 9:36
  Arthi Rabikrisson: well, yeah, that's that's absolutely it. You know, we tend to plan as if we will always be available to explain ourselves, but the reality is, is we may not actually have that courtesy.
• 9:45
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Like you said, you know, you can't actually manage or speak for yourself at that point in time. So what happens?
• 9:51
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, life doesn't give us the courtesy, right? It's more often a blind side, and those left behind feel like tears in the headlights and poor.
• 10:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Unfortunately, and the reason for that is because so much of our financial lives it's in our heads. The password is in our head. The policy number is in an email, maybe some way. The debt repayment, okay, we know it, right? The debit order comes off the account that nobody else can actually check. Our funeral preferences was actually just mentioned in passing at some bride that we had, you know. But then,
• 10:23
  Malika Petersen: yeah, yeah. And then when something happens, people are trying to piece together, you know, a life from fragment.
• 10:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's like you said: the dramas, the WhatsApp messages, the emails, bank statements. Gosh, yeah, that's what we do.
• 10:36
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and that's where planning becomes an act of love, right? Because it almost says I may not be able to remove your grief, but I can reduce the additional stress that comes with admin around
• 10:49
  Arthi Rabikrisson: it. I think that's so beautifully said.
• 10:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Actually,
• 10:51
  Malika Petersen: yeah, I think there's another people that, or another reason that people avoid it. It's family dynamics, because let's be honest, the moment you start talking about documents, beneficiaries, wishes, policies, you know, people get nervous. They start to go, "You're asking, you know, who's getting what? Are you are you sick? Do I need to be worried? You know, or why are you being so negative?
• 11:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: No, yeah. As you even say that, I was thinking of those questions just coming to mind. And you know, even in some families, let's just go back to the death piece.
• 11:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Just talking about death, it's like taboo. It's disrespectful in certain cultures. It's spiritually uncomfortable as well. Maybe it's just too painful as well, right? There's like a legacy kind of pain around that as well. But I think we can reframe it, everyone.
• 11:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: That this is not about some obsession with death or our end of life. It's about organizing our legacy into a beautiful package, as you said, Malika, of love for our loved ones.
• 11:50
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that is a great reframe, right? Organizing our legacy into a beautiful package for our loved ones.
• 11:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, the point is, everyone, not to sit in fear, but rather to say, let me make sure the people I love are not left with unnecessary chaos.
• 12:06
  Malika Petersen: Yeah. So let's talk about what actually happens when there is a crisis or death.
• 12:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah.
• 12:12
  Malika Petersen: Because I think people actually underestimate how quickly the practical questions start to show up.
• 12:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, very quickly, Malika. And often, as we said, while everyone is still in shock, so if someone pass away, passes away or is suddenly incapacitated, it's almost immediate, right? In terms of the question, so who are we calling first? Do we have a doctor's note or certificate?
• 12:34
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Where's the ID for the person?
• 12:34
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ooh, what about the employer policies? Do we have the right policy? Medical policy, funeral policy. Do we know if there's life cover, will the keys to the house, even to just to get stuff? Like, who has a copy of that? And then the more practical things, especially if there's like people and pets at home. Who's going to feed the dogs? Who's going to look after the kids? Do we even have an alarm code to go into the house?
• 12:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Can you see the build-up across so many different places of these questions when you're not available anymore?
• 13:08
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, some of those questions sound small until you are the person trying to answer them.
• 13:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, you know, the alarm code becomes a really big thing when nobody can get into the house. Okay, your phone password. I mean, you know, we have we have so much of our lives built into our phone, right? That'll become such a big thing when suddenly you need to contact people. Funeral policy numbers, for example, become a really big thing when you're now trying to make arrangements. And who's the right person to be calling for that? So it all comes in at a big rush.
• 13:40
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean the bank account. It's a simple thing, but I mean, it becomes a big thing when debit orders are still running, school fees are due, rent or bond payments approaching, and no one knows, you know, what money is available, what money is committed, what needs to be paid. And I just want to reiterate that this is where financial advisor becomes so important because having one person with access to all the information is truly invaluable.
• 14:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I agree with that, and it's also why we say do not leave them guessing, everyone, because guessing creates stress, which creates conflict and delays, and actually can create unnecessary debt as well.
• 14:18
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, especially if people cannot find policies or don't know what cover exists, right? So a family, for example, may start borrowing for funeral costs or immediate expenses, only to discover later that actually there was a policy that they didn't know about.
• 14:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, and in fact, even the opposite is true, right, Malika? When you assuming yes, there is cover, and then you find out oh, there's not enough, and now you're having to make monetary decisions under pressure.
• 14:45
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and under grief.
• 14:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh yes, under grief as well. So people are not in their best decision-making state at that point in time. You know this in terms of grief, and we've all experienced grief at different levels in our lives, right? Grief affects memory, concentration. Energy patients.
• 14:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, it's so widespread, right?
• 15:03
  Malika Petersen: Yeah. So asking someone to make complex financial and administrative decisions in that state is actually it's really unfair, and I mean it's difficult to do.
• 15:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah. I mean I still recall situations in my family, Malika, where you know key people who had some knowledge and who are grieving at that point have to now go and search and guess and phone around, negotiate with other family members as well. And now again, when it comes to the financial piece, considering what's the costs, arguing as well, you're trying to decode someone's entire life, and you know that person becomes so stretched, and is starting to spiral even in their own grief, but on top of all the admin as well. So this burden actually becomes far heavier.
• 15:51
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, telling this episode then is really about reducing that burden, right?
• 15:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Definitely, it's not about controlling everything or creating a perfect system. It's just making sure that people who love you have somewhere to start. Yeah,
• 16:06
  Malika Petersen: yeah. And okay, I want to say, you know, with the phrase that many people use, my family will know what
• 16:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: to do. Oh boy, I have heard that. I'm sure you have too.
• 16:19
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely.
• 16:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's one of those phrases that sounds comforting but may not be true, everyone.
• 16:25
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, because what does no actually mean, right? I mean, do they know where the will is? Do they know and understand which policies are active? Do they know who your financial advisor is? You know, do they know whether you have debt? Do they know which account the bond comes off. Do they know you know where the important documents are, for example?
• 16:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know exactly, and I know we're harping on about this, right? In terms of the examples, but actually, you know this this idea of knowing and the knowledge. Sometimes your family may emotionally know what you want, but practically they may not know how to action it, isn't it, Malika?
• 17:01
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that's a very good distinction. Actually,
• 17:05
  Arthi Rabikrisson: so for example, they may know that you value simplicity, that you don't you don't want to fuss when it comes time to say goodbye. They may even know, okay, this is how I want my kids to be protected.
• 17:15
  Arthi Rabikrisson: But beyond that, do they know who is meant to take care of the kids, for example, right? And of course, yes, please alert the people at my workplace. But who exactly needs to be contacted?
• 17:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, is it just a colleague, or is it a line manager, or is it higher up or HR? If there's a policy, you know, cover that you wish to have, is there someone to contact around that? If you're a business owner with clients, are there certain clients that need to be informed as well? Do we know where some of the key documentation might even be? So, as you can see, we're asking a lot of questions, everybody. But again, just illustrating the
• 17:55
  point around: we may know the high level, we may not know the granular.
• 17:59
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, I think listeners, it's important to note that your families may love you deeply, but yeah, everything might still be completely disorganized. Life doesn't automatically create an information flow, right? It
• 18:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: doesn't. It does like the way you said. We still need to tell the people what they need to know. Yeah.
• 18:18
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I think you know sometimes there's a privacy concern. People may say, "I don't want everybody to know my business.
• 18:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I mean, I think that's fair, Malika. I mean, it's not about giving everyone access to everything, but I think it's about deciding who is the right trusted person and what level of information they may need. So you know, maybe your whole family doesn't need to know every detail, but someone needs to know where the folder is, and somebody also needs to know who to call.
• 18:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Something about the policies and what's existing or not, needing to know what your wishes are, and also you know how to actually unlock the door. You know to get things started.
• 18:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Someone needs to know that.
• 18:58
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think that's such a good metaphor.
• 19:00
  Malika Petersen: Right? They don't need to know every key to every room, yeah.
• 19:04
  Malika Petersen: But they do need to know the first door,
• 19:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: exactly as you're saying. And you know, you can protect your privacy while still reducing confusion. I think that's the key point we missed here. We're putting.
• 19:13
  Malika Petersen: No, absolutely.
• 19:13
  Malika Petersen: And I mean, you're gonna be gone. Your secrets are gonna come out.
• 19:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: oh boy.
• 19:19
  Malika Petersen: Anyway, maybe the question is not should everyone know everything, but it's more who needs to know enough, right?
• 19:27
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, I like that. So who needs to know enough to act responsibly if something happens?
• 19:31
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and actually, I think of of making this abstract. It may help to talk about these kinds of situations that we've seen or heard in their life, not in a sensational way, but because these moments that make this topic feel very human.
• 19:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely.
• 19:46
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so obviously we're keeping details private, anonymized. I can also think of many examples where pain was not the only loss; it was actually the uncertainty after the loss, right? So I can recall a situation, Malika, where someone had actually. Being quite responsible. Okay, there was cover, there were policies, there was planning, but the problem was that nobody knew where anything was. So here, the family was sitting with grief, and then on top of that, they were trying to figure out some of the things we've already said: which insurer to call?
• 20:16
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Where were those policy documents? And in fact, were the premiums even up to date? You know, to call onto those policies, and who is the right authority to speak to whom? So again, lots of those questions about who, where, what, and how.
• 20:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know, I remember thinking, or at least what stayed with me was that even though the planning existed, it was not accessible. So the care could not actually reach the people at the moment that they needed it the most, and further on down the line, you know, I think it was just realized that while there was planning, in fact, even some of the information was outdated, like for example, the number of children that were alive or marital status, which eventually ended up causing delays in the process because now you needed certain evidence to back up what the current state was,
• 21:02
  Malika Petersen: yeah, I think there's a few key points that you raise in that story, story, Arthi, because you know sometimes we think I've got it all sorted, everything is fine, but sorted for whom, right? And again, if only you know where it is, then in a crisis it's really not sorted; it's actually just hidden. And then you know when not everything is actually up to date. I mean that's just yeah that's hard.
• 21:26
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, it's making me think of our of our blanket analogy, Malika.
• 21:28
  Arthi Rabikrisson: It's like packing a winter blanket and then locking it in our cupboard, and then nobody has the key to it when winter strikes. Okay, and then you realize well actually there's more things that need to go into that cupboard as well in preparation.
• 21:42
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, I've seen this was spent in extended family situations where you know the person who passed away was the person who handled everything, right? So they knew the bank account, they knew the passwords, they knew the debit orders, they knew who the service providers were, what the family's commitments for the insurance, the household repairs, the schools, everything, but everything lived in that person's head. And when they were gone, you know, the family ended up not only grieving the person, but they were grieving the loss of that system that supported
• 22:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: them. That is so powerful. What you just said, Malika. The person was the system.
• 22:23
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean that is a very risky thing because many capable people accidentally become the only operating manual for their household.
• 22:33
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know, it's often not intentional, Malika. It's it's just that life is busy. Maybe one person is better at the administrative staff, or one person knows how to handle the finances better.
• 22:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Someone's got a better memory, you know, for names and passwords and all of that. So you just end up relying on one person, you know, who needs to be called for certain things.
• 22:51
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And then, if something happens to that one person, you know, okay, everyone has a lot of love, but they don't have the information necessarily,
• 23:02
  Malika Petersen: you know. Which is where the panic comes in, right? I mean, I, you know, I've also had a conversation with clients where the wake up call is not death but illness, right?
• 23:11
  Malika Petersen: So a hospitalization, a sudden procedure, something that was meant, you know, that the person ended up being alive but unavailable, and suddenly the partner or the adult child has to ask what bills need to be paid, what clients need to be contacted. You know what medication is needed, and do we have the cover for that medication? Where are the passwords? You know, it's it just nobody knows what's going on.
• 23:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And this is so useful, right? Because often people can think, you know, and and yes, we are slanting a little bit towards the death part, right? When somebody dies and all of these things become relevant, but what we're actually saying, everybody, is that if something happens, can actually mean many things. It could be death, it could be incapacity, illness, travel disruption, a mental health crisis. You know, anything that means you can't explain your own life admin at a point in time.
• 24:02
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and then there's the funeral side to death, right? I mean, I know families where the person passed away; they had very simple wishes, right? They, you know, but because those wishes were never clearly communicated, the family felt the pressure to go above and beyond, because it's your loved one, right? So you know, you know what you want for them. You want more food. You want more people at their funeral. You want more transfer.
• 24:28
  Malika Petersen: You want more pompous and ceremony. You want more of everything.
• 24:33
  Malika Petersen: And no one wants to be this person who stops it in the middle of all this planning and says, "Can we afford this? When everyone is grieving, because in that moment, and I think this is the very important point. In that moment, that sentence feels harsh, even though it may be absolutely necessary. And I mean that is that is why one of the most loving things you can say while you alive is please do not. Going into debt to prove that you loved me after I am gone.
• 25:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, I mean, just hearing you say that, it feels like such a releasing sentence because a beautiful send-off should not financially bury the people left behind, and you know that does not mean that we dishonor people in any way.
• 25:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Far from it. We it means we're just separating dignity from pressure.
• 25:23
  Malika Petersen: Yes, and I can also tell you. I mean, Arthi, we talk a lot about legacy on this on this podcast. Dignity does not have to mean financial damage. In fact, I think if you speak to most people, they would rather leave a legacy than leave their families in financial ruins. And clarity while you are alive can help families to make those decisions with a lot less guilt.
• 25:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I agree with that, Malika, and I think everyone, as you can hear, the theme across all of these examples is not that people were careless or unloving; it's that they were they had not made the information easy enough to find.
• 26:02
  Malika Petersen: Exactly right, and that is the thing that we are. We do have the power to change while we are alive. So I think let's get practical. We say don't leave them guessing.
• 26:11
  Malika Petersen: What should people actually be making clear?
• 26:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, great.
• 26:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Let's get to it. So I would start Malika with seven areas.
• 26:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, and this is please hear clearly. This does not have to be perfect. It can start as just one page in a notebook or a secure digital document, right?
• 26:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Or if you are a very tangible physical person, a physical folder with these things in. The point is to create a starting point. Okay.
• 26:36
  Malika Petersen: Okay. What is area number one?
• 26:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Area one: people to call. So who are the important contacts? These could include your partner, close family members, executives, attorneys, financial planners, accountants-you know that sort of end of things as well. What about on your employer's side, right? If you're employed in a company, the HR person, the line manager, on the medical side, maybe the doctors, and then think even more broadly, in terms of like religious or community, if you're really involved in those areas as well, as well as who are my trusted friends that I want to be
• 27:08
  Malika Petersen: yeah
• 27:08
  Arthi Rabikrisson: giving information to as well.
• 27:10
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, because I think in a crisis, people often do not know, you know, know what's what, for example, or who's what.
• 27:17
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Truth. I mean, just crafting a contact list like this, I think already starts to make people feel at ease. You know, the second area, Malika, I would say is documents to find. So, how quickly can somebody get to an ID document?
• 27:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Because that also opens up so much, right, in terms of information. And then beyond that, maybe a passport, a marriage certificate, or an antinatural, if that's applicable, divorce documents, even if that's relevant, then think about documents for other family members. For example, birth certificates for your kids. What about other types of documents around some of your assets, like title deeds or vehicle papers, business documents, and of course your will as well.
• 27:59
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I think it's important to note that the location does matter, right? So it's not just a matter of communicating I have a wall.
• 28:05
  Malika Petersen: It's a matter of communicating I have a wall. This is where it is. This is where you can find the original. This person has a copy, and this is who you should be contacting.
• 28:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely, and of course, if it's been updated, make sure that that's also information that needs to be applied to this, right? Um, area three would be policies and cover, Malika. So we've mentioned quite a few already.
• 28:31
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Everyone, the funeral policy, the life cover, disability, medical aid, gap cover, retirement information as well, education policies, anything that may matter if something happens. Can you imagine how beautiful having a list of policies, policy provider contact number? Oh man, it's already stress relieving just saying that it's organized.
• 28:53
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and people, I must please just highlight this. You cannot just leave a company name, you know, if possible. We've spoken about the importance of financial advisors. They, you know, the best thing, best case scenario is you have a financial advisor who has all of this information, access to all of it. But if not, make sure you leave policy numbers. Make sure you leave contact details for the companies. Make sure you leave the financial advisors details.
• 29:16
  Malika Petersen: Make sure you need beneficiary information. Any anything that you can possibly
• 29:21
  Arthi Rabikrisson: absolutely Mallika. That level of organization helps so much everyone. Area four, I would say, Malika is a money map. So for me, this could look like a simple list of different bank accounts, debts, debit orders, and in the debt piece, things like your different loans and credit cards, or short-term loans, longer loans as well, your bond, any kind of vehicle financing. Stay. If you have a business, of course, then some of your business accounts, things that have regular financial commitments. It's good to kind of have a sense of what that is.
• 29:53
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, again, this does not mean that everybody needs access to your secrets or your money.
• 29:59
  Malika Petersen: That. Not what we are
• 30:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: testing, but it does mean that the right person needs to know where to find what exists. That is very important. Exactly, exactly. So area five, everyone would be who are your dependents and what are your household responsibilities.
• 30:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So that list will talk to okay.
• 30:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So who actually depends on me financially and practically, right? It's your children, parents, siblings, but then also things like your domestic workers or employees, even your pets, right? What needs to keep happening if you are not available?
• 30:36
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, this is actually a very, very big one because sometimes the financial responsibilities are not obvious on paper.
• 30:44
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Well, this is it, right? Because imagine you're on one of your, let's say, in a community or in a state with a governance body as well, and you're responsible for certain things there too, right?
• 30:52
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Sometimes you need to be able to ensure, oh, we need to contact this because this information is needed for the next month. So have all of that on hand, everyone. Area six, I would say, is a digital access plan. Okay,
• 31:06
  so we said this before: passwords. We have those stored.
• 31:10
  so we said this before: Who can actually access besides myself, my phone, my laptop, my email, even my cloud storage?
• 31:14
  so we said this before: Maybe that's where I'm keeping some of my important information. So again, we are not saying write down passwords on a sticky note and put them under fridge. Not at all. Yeah, please
• 31:25
  Malika Petersen: don't do that.
• 31:26
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh my god! But you do need some kind of a secure plan, everyone. Maybe in a password manager. Maybe sealed instructions. Okay, or like a trusted person, like an attorney. Let's say whatever might be appropriate for your situation.
• 31:40
  Malika Petersen: All right. What about area number seven, Arthi?
• 31:42
  Arthi Rabikrisson: The seventh one I would say, Malika, is what's your wishes and your values? So these might include funeral preferences, your spiritual or cultural wishes as well. Even being explicit to say what I don't want people to overspend on, who should be involved in some of the decisions around this, and of course any sort of message that would really help your loved ones make decisions with less guilt.
• 32:07
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, absolutely love that, right?
• 32:08
  Malika Petersen: Because sometimes people do not only need documents; they also need permission.
• 32:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exactly, permission to not go into debt, permission to keep things simple, permission to even make decisions without worrying that they are disappointing you in any way, and actually, just that permission to choose peace over performance, Malika boy, because you know how easy it is to pander to someone else's whims, and actually, it's not appropriate for what the actual person wanted at that point in time.
• 32:38
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, like we said earlier on, this is such an important part of legacy, right?
• 32:40
  Malika Petersen: So yeah, let's turn those seven areas into a practical tool for today.
• 32:47
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're calling the tool "if something happens" list. Okay,
• 32:53
  Malika Petersen: I think that's much less intimidating than the estate planning file,
• 32:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: which sounds very business-like, doesn't it?
• 33:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: You know, and it's because sometimes people do not start because the language feels too big. You know, estate planning sounds pretty formal. A legacy file sounds quite serious, actually. But almost everyone can understand that if something happens, here's what you need to know.
• 33:15
  Malika Petersen: Yeah. So, listeners, if something happens, list can be one page to begin with. It doesn't need to be perfect, but it does need to be useful.
• 33:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, and absolutely. Start with the headings based on the areas that I shared. So, heading one:
• 33:29
  people to call. Heading two: documents to find. Heading
• 33:33
  three: policies that exist.
• 33:33
  three: Heading four: accounts and debts
• 33:37
  to know about. Heading five: dependents or responsibilities.
• 33:42
  Heading six: digital access instructions, and heading seven: my wishes.
• 33:48
  Malika Petersen: All right. So, where should people keep it left?
• 33:50
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I would say somewhere secure but findable, and that's you know that's the balance. It's not lying around for everyone to find, but it's not so hidden that nobody even knows it exists. So, again, like I said earlier, maybe it's a trusted person like your attorney. Maybe it's a physical folder that you've kept in a place where it's known to be locked with important documents that you've let somebody know about. The key is one trusted person must know where this is located and where to start.
• 34:18
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and this needs to be updated, of course.
• 34:20
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Please do not create it and then forget it for 10 years. Yeah,
• 34:24
  Malika Petersen: because life changes, right, guys? We change jobs, we change policies, we close accounts, we open new ones. I mean, we get married, we get divorced, we have children.
• 34:33
  Malika Petersen: You start a business, you move, you change your beneficiaries, you take on debt, you settle date. You know, it's got a few things.
• 34:40
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So I mean, maybe reviewing it once a year is a good rhythm. What do you think, Malika? Yeah, I mean, link it to your birthday. I mean, you can't forget that necessarily. Maybe it's the start of the year or at a tax season. So think of a a nice kind of place where you'll remember it, and that becomes your annual reset.
• 34:56
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and also, I mean, I imagine there come couples of families. Could do this together, right?
• 35:01
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Ah, absolutely. I mean, this can become a household exercise.
• 35:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, not not in a dramatic way, but in a practical way. You know, let's just make sure we know where things are. I mean, just that alone, having somebody else also doing this with you, can reduce so much of the anxiety.
• 35:16
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and it also may reveal
• 35:19
  Arthi Rabikrisson: gaps. Yes, I mean, maybe you realize, like we were what we were saying, something is outdated, like your will, or actually, oh, we didn't put our beneficiaries in, or now that we're reviewing our funeral policy, maybe this cover is not enough, you know. So again, it's all of these pieces that allow you to just kind of assess, given what's happened maybe over the last six months or years since you last reviewed, that there might be some additional needs that's needed there.
• 35:42
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and if information gives you a chance to act right, I mean that's the power of information. Can we quickly talk about what not to do? Because sometimes people think they have you know a plan, but they've actually left a puzzle.
• 35:57
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, please do not leave a puzzle.
• 36:00
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, let's talk about some of the common things that people do.
• 36:04
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh, I can think straight off the head. We said this earlier. It's a phrase. Everything is sorted, but nobody knows what it means.
• 36:11
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and I mean, I think it's important to note that the phrase needs evidence, right? So sorted how, with whom, where, you know, which folder is it in? You know, two, they have the documents, but nobody knows where it is.
• 36:24
  Malika Petersen: Three, they maybe tell one person verbally, but never write anything down. I mean, how much pressure for one person, right?
• 36:31
  Malika Petersen: What if something happens to that person? Number four, they assume that their partner knows, but the partner only knows some of the picture, not the full picture.
• 36:39
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah,
• 36:40
  Malika Petersen: you know, they keep everything on their phone or laptop, and then nobody can access it. Six, they never update beneficiaries or documents when major life changes happen. You know they avoid telling loved ones about debt or policies or obligations because they feel embarrassed.
• 36:55
  Malika Petersen: And then people, you know, when they're left behind, they have to discover things piece by place.
• 37:00
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know that's an important point because the discovery, especially during grief, Malika, it's it can feel like a betrayal, even though that was not the intention at all.
• 37:09
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that's a very good point because the person may not have meant to hide anything; they may just have been dis, you know, disorganized or avoidant. But to the person left behind, it can feel like, why didn't you tell me? Why did you leave me with all of this? Why didn't you help me to make this easier?
• 37:26
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, I agree with that. So you know what we're trying to say here again, everyone, is let's reduce avoidable pain. Let's not just assume that my spouse or my oldest child or the sibling or whoever we deem to be the responsible one is going to know automatically what to do. People may be capable, but they also grieving, right? So capability is not the same as clarity.
• 37:49
  Malika Petersen: Okay. Now we've shared so much with the listeners today, but I think the most daunting of everything is how to start this conversation without terrifying your family.
• 38:00
  Malika Petersen: Because if we suddenly say we need to talk about what happens if I die, like people may just panic.
• 38:06
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Oh yes, they're probably going to say,"Are you okay? Did the doctor say something? What is happening? It's going to be panic.
• 38:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So tone matters, everyone, and you can frame it as organization, right? Not ringing an alarm bell. So you could say something like, "I've been listening to this podcast on the Swan Effect, and this particular episode made me realize I don't want you to have to guess about where things are if something happens. Now, wouldn't that be nice if everyone listens?
• 38:34
  Malika Petersen: That's a great gentle reminder.
• 38:37
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Another example could be I'm doing a life admin reset, and I want to make sure all of our important information is in one place.
• 38:45
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, or you know, this is not because something is wrong. Involve the family. You know, ask everybody what their wishes is. Say it is because I want us to all be prepared.
• 38:58
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Exactly, and again, you know, frame it around. I don't want a crisis to be the first time that we actually talking about all of this as well.
• 39:07
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that is really good.
• 39:09
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know, inevitably, Malika, somebody's going to resist. Yeah, even though we're trying to be as calm and framing it and all of that. But I think the way to handle that, everyone, is just to keep it light but firm. So even just call it out. Like I know this feels uncomfortable, but then kind of position it to say, I'd rather we be uncomfortable for an hour than confused for weeks or months on end.
• 39:33
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, that is very practical.
• 39:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And like you said, Malika, about co-opting others in. I mean, for couples, for example, this can be such a beautiful shared exercise in terms of let's both create our lists and kind of sharing across each other. Well, here's my file of important information, or here's our household responsibilities, and let's both add in different pieces that we're doing.
• 39:54
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and for adult children, it might be you know asking parents gently, do you have any? Important documents somewhere that I should know about, or you could say who can I call if there's an emergency, or you could say something like, is there anything that you want me to know in case anything happens?
• 40:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And you know, Malika, with parents especially, sensitivity matters.
• 40:17
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, the
• 40:18
  Arthi Rabikrisson: goal everyone is not to sound like you are asking, what am I getting?
• 40:22
  Malika Petersen: Yes, I mean that can go wrong quite quickly, right? And and I mean we know that that's not being kept.
• 40:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Absolutely.
• 40:29
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So rather frame it as I want to honor your wishes and reduce stress if anything ever happens.
• 40:35
  Arthi Rabikrisson: So can we talk about where things are kept and who should be contacted?
• 40:40
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, so that it feels respectful and clear, right? And if the answer is"Don't worry, everything is sorted, you can gently probe and say, "Thank you. Would you be comfortable telling me who knows where this information
• 40:53
  Unknown: is? You
• 40:54
  Malika Petersen: know, that way you are not demanding to know the details, but you're making sure that you at very least have a starting point. So, listeners, are you ready to begin your reset? We call it the "Don't Leave Them Guessing" reset.
• 41:09
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Yeah, and it is based exactly on the seven areas that I mentioned and the"If Something Happens" list.
• 41:14
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Okay, so basically, start breaking down over one month to have as many answers as you can to all the different areas I mentioned previously, from your contacts to digital access to accounts to your updated wall.
• 41:24
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Our simple goal, everyone, is for you to start reducing the guesswork.
• 41:30
  Malika Petersen: Yeah. Okay. I think what I'm taking from this episode is that planning doesn't have to be dramatic, right? And I think that's so important for us to share with our listeners, it doesn't have to be this big, frightening, formal thing, right? It can start with the simplest, a simple folder, just a conversation, a message that says, you know, yes, is where to find what you need.
• 41:53
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And I think that is what makes it so powerful, Malika, because we often think love is only in the big gestures, but sometimes love is in the admin as well.
• 42:03
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Everybody, love is in the policy number. Love is in the folder label. Love is in telling someone, please do not go into debt for a funeral for me, because I would not want anyone to struggle for that.
• 42:16
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think that's very important, right?
• 42:18
  Malika Petersen: Love is in clarity, and that does not remove grief. Please, we're not saying that nothing removes the grief, but it can remove a lot of the confusion around the grief.
• 42:30
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And that is a real gift. We've talked about so many different pieces. I think we've reiterated so many different points as well in our conversation, Alika. And now we're at parting shots. So, Madika, what is your parting shot between?
• 42:46
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, I think my parting shot is this: do not wait until everything is perfect before you organize something useful. Right? Your family doesn't at this point need a flawless system. They just need somewhere to start: a name, a number, a folder, a list, clue.
• 43:02
  Malika Petersen: Give them, you know, less to get and more to lean onto. I think that's really important. And you, Arthi, what is your parting shot today?
• 43:13
  Arthi Rabikrisson: I like your call there in terms of what you said, Malika. That's really beautiful. I think for mine, it would be that planning for debt does not invite death closer at all. It actually invites more care into the life you're already living, and it it says to the people that you love that in in those moments where I have no control or I cannot control anymore, I try to make things really lighter for you. And for me, I think that's a really beautiful legacy to leave those that you might be leaving behind, and let's make that our goal, everyone, to ease.
• 43:44
  Malika Petersen: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Listen, if this episode made you think of one person who needs to start the if something happens list, please share this episode with them.
• 43:55
  Arthi Rabikrisson: And if it made you think of yourself, then you know, just take one step this week already and get started, and then work through the rest of it over the next month or so.
• 44:05
  Malika Petersen: Yeah, and remember to keep choosing awareness, courage, and intention, everyone. Until next time,
• 44:12
  Arthi Rabikrisson: ciao. Ciao for now, everyone.
• 44:17
  Malika Petersen: Thanks for joining us. We hope you found these ideas and guidance useful.
• 44:22
  Arthi Rabikrisson: We're both seasoned in the investments industry. Malika is at the coalface of how, where, and why people invest the way they do.
• 44:32
  Malika Petersen: I certainly am, and you, Arthi, you've witnessed different types of investor behaviors around money too, and now work as a global award-winning coach to free us from the mindsets that stop us from becoming financially free.
• 44:48
  Arthi Rabikrisson: Do subscribe, share, and write a review or send us comments. We would love to hear from you.
• 44:54
  Malika Petersen: Catch you on the next episode
• 44:56
  Arthi Rabikrisson: of the Swan Effect podcast.
• 44:59
  Malika Petersen: Bye for now.
• 44:59
  Malika Petersen: Ciao.