Latest / In the Valley of Giants / Philosophy: Deep Wisdom or Spiritual Poison? | Rabbi Jeremy Kagan | ITVOG Ep. 28

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Philosophy: Deep Wisdom or Spiritual Poison? | Rabbi Jeremy Kagan | ITVOG Ep. 28 · In the Valley of Giants

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Alicia, who is perhaps the most tragic a Jewish figure that has
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ever lived. Philosophy The reason why
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philosophy is something which is important to people is because
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it does very much speak to. You know it it.
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Speaks to the way people experience the world there's no
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point in history from the time of Corbin abayas reshone when
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we're not being where our most thought is not being defined by
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the. Larger culture of the world, at
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least partially partially. That's what goal is all about.
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Right. But I find it often I feel that
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when a person is, they approach me, they're interested in
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philosophy. It's not, it's not.
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It's often coming from that. Hello everyone.
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Today we're joined by our Jeremy Kagan.
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Rabbi Kagan is a man of thought. He got his bosses of philosophy
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from Yale University, so he understands Western thought, but
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he also learned in yeshivas for many years, so he understands
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Jewish philosophical thought. Are they compatible?
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Are they incompatible? What are the dangers of someone
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that wants to learn secular philosophy?
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Should they? This is what we discussed today.
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It's a deep and difficult conversation, but it's one that
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I hope that you enjoy from someone that learned from Plato,
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but also over Moshe Shapiro. So sit back, relax, and think.
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And if you really like this episode, see the show notes for
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Rabba Kagan's books. Rabba Kagan, thank you so much
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for being with us here today. Thank you for having me.
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Of course, it's our pleasure. So I'm going to start off with a
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Gemara and Hagiga, the Talmud and Tessvam.
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The base talks of Alicia Benavlia Ahar, who is perhaps
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the most tragic, a Jewish figure that has ever lived, a
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tremendous rabbinic figure who fell off the religious path.
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And then this passage of the Talmud, it says that whenever he
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rose from the basement or from the study hall, so heretical
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books would fall from his lap. You have a tremendous background
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in Jewish philosophy, but it's also clear from your writings
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that you are aware of other philosophies, secular
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philosophies. So why does this not fall within
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Alicia Benavuya's mistake of reading heretical works in your
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view? And then I'll say my opinion
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afterwards. Well, I mean, in my case it's
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easy because I didn't become religious until I was well into
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my college career. So I was, I didn't grow up
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religious. When I went to to college, I
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began, I was originally majoring in the maths and sciences.
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And then slowly my interest began to shift more towards the,
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with the philosophical side. So I ended up majoring in
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philosophy. I was first introduced to
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Orthodox Judaism and well, the truth is when I first got to
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college, I, I had, I had some friends there that were, that
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was the first time I actually met any Orthodox Jews.
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But I was already, I was, it was after my, I'd say during my
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junior year in college that I started getting more interested,
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actually much more interested. Between my sophomore and my
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junior year, I actually took some time off from college and
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spent some time in Eric Gestreau.
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Why'd you do that? So I mean, I, I, it was, I mean,
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it was a, it was a, it was a journey.
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It was a, it was, I was, I was trying to understand my own
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background, which was, I had a lot of different influences.
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Actually grew up in in Hawaii. Can you serve body surf?
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Body surf, which is actually challenging and Eric just, well,
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but it's in Hawaii. It's a, it's a big thing.
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So I grew up there. I actually went to a very, very
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good high school. But it actually, it was
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originally associated with Episcopalian church when I was
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it, it actually switched over while I was there.
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I was there at the same school from 5th grade until I graduated
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and went on to college. So I had that there was a very I
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actually respected a lot the teachers I had in high school.
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They were very smart, but they also were good people that a
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good solid moral court them. And I think I very much had that
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coming out of my family when I went to college studying
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philosophy, that that sense of of morality didn't really find a
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place for itself in the philosophical studies I was
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doing think that kind of created a little bit of standing outside
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looking from the outside in as I became more familiar with Torah
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and I took out my, I said after my sophomore year.
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Actually, you did start to answer.
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Do you thought those were antithetical?
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Which? Was the the the moral?
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Not antithetical, but the point is philosophy wants to ground
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your understanding of reality someplace.
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And if morality doesn't really morality some that doesn't come
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in at the beginning, then either it's just sort of an added on or
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it's a yeah, you know what, what place does it have in the way
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that you're looking at things? What grounding does it have?
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So I think I always had a kind of a like, you know, there's
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some, some something's missing here.
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And then as I started, I took that time off.
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I was in Israel. I spent my last two weeks in
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yeshiva. And that was a very eye opening
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experience because as much as I felt something was missing in
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that secular education, I obviously wasn't becoming
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religious so quickly. But I recognize that at least
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the Torah approach things in a very, very different way.
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And that very, very different way was was inseparable from a
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sense of morality, these kinds of things.
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So. Meaning your internal engine,
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instead of it being philosophically based from other
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sources that you had contact with, you felt that the Torah
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application, or rather the Torah engine for your philosophical
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basis was strengthened and you should've already found it to a
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certain degree. I, I, I I don't know if I I
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phrase it exactly like that. Well, I'm just, I'm trying to
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figure out, you said anchoring, right.
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So that's what I'm. I'm just trying to.
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My my point is that that I always had a very strong moral
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sense as I was that was not a was not really a major topic in
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sort of more introductory levels of philosophy.
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As I became more familiar with sort of the Western tradition,
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the philosophical tradition, it became clear that this actually
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was the underlying was recognized within the Western
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tradition as one of the underlying problems with the
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whole modern approach towards understanding the world and the
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understanding that came out from the that sort of more a
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philosophically Western based approach to reality.
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You mean like the postmodernist view?
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That if you're looking for a term, postmodernism is the
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awareness that there's something fundamental missing and either
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that bothers you or doesn't bother you.
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Either you embrace that and say there really is no meaning or
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you have a problem and you really don't know what to do
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with it. Right.
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So the professor that I actually was most interested in when I
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was at Yale was someone who was clearly one of the, he was a, he
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was a staggering genius, incredibly broad in his, in his
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knowledge, his understanding and his depth, and very much aware
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of this problem. And it was clear that he it
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bothered him and he didn't really have such a great
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solution to it. What was his name?
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His name is Carsten Harris. He's actually still a professor
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emeritus there. So it's, it's, you know, it's a,
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that that kind of set me up nicely when I started being
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introduced to Toro as well as, you know, a major element of
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modernism is that any understanding we have comes from
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a certain perspective, which is the whole thing that leads to
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most postmodernism, not really recognizing that there's any
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absolute truth and therefore any inner good or bad or morality.
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But when, since that was so much a part of my secular
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philosophical background, it made it easy for me to enter
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into Torah and say, OK, there's this perspective, there's that
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perspective. And if there wasn't, I didn't
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have, I didn't have any conflict as I was sort of entering into
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the terror world. And then it was more a process
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over a long period of time. We're really trying to I coming
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to understand more deeply what tour is really all about and be
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able to, instead of looking at terror from a Western
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perspective, looking at the Western world from a Torah
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perspective. But there are some philosophies
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that are not antithetical to Jewish thought, like
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Aristotelian philosophy. I find what most things that he
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says in metaphysics, I don't think they're they're very anti
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terror. Do you?
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Well, again, it's like. You have it.
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Depends on what you mean by anti Torah right?
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It's like the very basis, if you're going to start with
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Aristotelian philosophy. So Aristotle believed that there
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was some kind of first 'cause underlying reality.
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But he, in other words, logically speaking, Aristotle
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was incredible philosopher, meaning he was a thinker.
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So if you're using rational thought, certain ways of
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approaching it, which Aristotle did, led him to understand that
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it was impossible to understand the world without recognizing
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there was something underneath it.
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But that whole understanding of what that entity was has no real
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relevance to how it is you live in the world and you live your
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life. Aristotle looked at worship as
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something was only had psychological benefits for man
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had no relationship between. So to say that not antithetical
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to Torah right at the very essence of what Torah is really
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all about is that there is a moral obligation underlying, you
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know, our whole that said that really, I guess the way I used
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to phrase this like this, what bothered me when I was in
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college originally was that I thought it wasn't just nice to
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be nice. I mean, it has to be some basis
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to it. And I didn't find an adequate
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answer to that within all the studies that I was doing when I
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was at Yale. You know, people would be talk
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about it might be it, but it would be an incidental thing.
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It didn't. This wasn't anything that went
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centrally essentially to what they're understanding.
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As soon as I came in to start became very quickly obvious.
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That was actually basis of absolutely everything right.
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So that was that was already that was Anna.
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And since I I had very much AI had a very strong moral sense in
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me coming out of my family, my high school background growing
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up in Hawaii, I was a very, very kind of middle class family
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values kind of a place. So it all it, it all reinforced
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what were my sort of natural tendencies in that area.
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So it, it, it, it's, it's it what's, what's most important to
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her is actually ultimately incidental to at best incidental
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to these philosophers. So you don't honestly find a
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conflict with specific ideas, but something that I'm always a
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person who doesn't just look at what's being said, but what are
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the premises underneath it and where those premises actually
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lead you, right. So if you're going to take that
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kind of an approach, then there are the from the very beginning,
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from the get go already Western philosophy, the most part is, is
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is at odds with the with with Torah and it's not at its
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foundation. So.
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Did you feel that contact with either classical, medieval or
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modern or postmodern philosophy was for Paris Lahoma that helped
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you understand and appreciate Torah?
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I think what happened was that it, it gave me respect for
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rigorous thought, thinking things out rigorously, really
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trying to understand them. Again, the, the, the key thing
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whenever you're thinking is where did you start from?
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What were your premises? That's going to affect where you
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get, regardless of how rigorous it is.
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But the idea that you could think about things, you could
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ask big questions about important things and you could,
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you could come to some kind of understanding whether it was a
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truth or not a truth. You certainly became more
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connected and more you, it broadened your grasp of the
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topic. Even if you don't feel like you
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actually came out with an answer.
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All those kinds of things actually were, were very, very
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good preparation for the kinds of things that, I mean, my,
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there was no real significant change in the area of my
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interest as I made the slow transition from a philosophical
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outlook in college into Torah. My areas of interest were very
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different, but I came to think about them in, in very, very
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different ways. And actually a lot, a lot of a
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lot of time that I spent, I spent decades really exploring,
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trying to understand what is the fundamental difference between
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the Western approach and the Torah approach and sort of the
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grounding of each one of them. That was something I wrote
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several books on. So it's like it's, it was
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something that was really working on for a long period of
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time, understanding how they really are significantly
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different. I was really set up to think
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about things in those ways because of the very things that
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I was interested when I was in college, the things I was
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studying. Carson Harris was really sort of
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looking, trying to understand what's the Western tradition
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really all about as a as a as a whole.
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So you'd put forward to that classical thinking and
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philosophical thought. Western thought really isn't
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necessary at all for a deep understanding of the world
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because we just we have Jewish philosophy.
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Again, I think philosophy is a a kind of way of asking questions.
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Yeah, but I said, but Western philosophy versus well.
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That's what you're saying with its in terms of its content,
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Yeah, in terms of its content, it's, I mean again, so it
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depends on, you know what, which thinkers you're talking about.
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But philosophy, the reason why philosophy is something which is
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important to people is because it does very much speak to.
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You know it it. Speaks to the way people
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experience the world. Reality is that we are.
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And this already gets into the larger topic of Gallus of exile.
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We are in exile. Our whole thinking process is
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very, very deeply influenced. And really it's it's, it's
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really structured based on the fact that we really are part of
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Western culture. So grappling with Western
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philosophy can be very useful for understanding how it is that
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our thinking processes, the way we think is deeply affected by
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the world as we understand it in the day, in the age that we're
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living in. So in that sense, studying
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philosophy can be extremely helpful as long as you can have
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that level of distance to recognize where it's coming from
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and how it is. It gets tricky because the
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reality is we are in Gullis, our minds are in Gullis, our
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understanding is in Gullis. You know, that wet, that Western
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structure and understanding is so deeply insinuated into all of
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our thinking process. Not like we're suddenly toward
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Jews. We're independent.
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We're not independent of it at all.
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So if you have enough distance to realize I'm trying to
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understand those aspects of my thinking, how they're affected
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by, you know, this by, by the context in which I'm, I'm, I'm
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engaging in the Torah. It, it can, it can be very
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helpful. But sort of getting the, getting
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to the place where you feel you have a grasp on what really
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defines Torah thought, what the challenge is to really get to,
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to, to really integrate with that in a meaningful way,
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despite the fact that you're doing it in the context of the
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world as we experience it today. You know, all these things can
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be helpful. It just depends on what your
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attitude towards it as you're. What are you trying to get out
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of out of studying these things? OK, so then to go back to the
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question of Alicia Manavuya. So is his error that he needed
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no integration because he was in an Eastern society, meaning he
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was, he was. I mean, the truth is, is that
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even then there was a lot of a lot of Roman influence and Greek
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influence. You're already there.
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I mean, like the Greek and the Roman influence are, are are,
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are are deeply integrated with one another.
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There's no point in history from the time of hormone bias reshone
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when we're not being where our most thought is not being
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defined by the. Larger culture of the world, at
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least partially partially. That's what goals is all about.
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But what that means is it structures my thinking.
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Whether I like it or not, it structures my thinking.
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Now the question is, how am I going to get to Tur in a
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meaningful way when I find myself stuck in this context?
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That's what goals is all about. That, like every challenge,
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brings us opportunities. Like every one of these
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different ways of looking at it will uncover different aspects
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and different strengths of the Torah.
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Way we understand the meaning of the pre historical processes.
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Each one of these different cultures and therefore context
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within which we engage the world give us access to different
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aspects of the Torah. How does the Torah come sort of
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come to fruition through these different these different
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things? So you're already you have to go
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back an awfully long way before you before you would.
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Before you would. Think that our way of
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understanding Torah exists in some kind of a purity
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independent of the context within which we've been.
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We've been struggling for with this for, you know, since that's
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the Babylonian exile, right? We're talking, we're talking,
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we're talking, you know, 3000 years already.
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It's a it's, it's a, it's a long time.
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But, but, but I'm saying it's like what we want to, what we
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want to understand is we want to understand how it is that that
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context is affecting us, How it is that that context focuses our
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challenge to reach authentic Tor in that context and then to and
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then to reach that reach that Tor in that context.
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Each one of these historical periods is going to is going to
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the fruit of it is going to be a different aspect of Tor that
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other that other times don't reveal that I'm able to acquire
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sort of in the whole. As the Jewish people build
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themselves over history, they build they're building different
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aspects of themselves as they travel through these different
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cultures where they talk about that in terms of picking up gay
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room, like why do we have to go to Gauls?
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Because you're picking up all these lights that are exiled in
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these places the way many of them before you understand it.
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We're not talking about individuals.
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We're talking about ideas that are, that are, that are native
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to these different cultures that the the Torah actually that that
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that opens up in the Torah certain different aspects.
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Otherwise we wouldn't have seen. Yeah, but I'll just again repeat
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the question if if what was Alicia Benevoya's mistake?
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It seems you're. Searching for truth in the in
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Western philosophy, you're going to have a problem if you're
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looking at it as something that will give you perspective on the
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Western view that enhances the way that you can appreciate
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what's turned, what's distinct about Torah and how it's
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affected by these wet by by the Western context that you're
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existing in. It can be valuable, but if you
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think it's a source of truth, then you're then then then
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you're headed for disaster. So it's either A+ or a minus.
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It's not neutral. Meaning if Alicia Benavidez is a
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mistake, you would argue within this part of the Gemara,
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assuming that it means by the heretical works, it could be it
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could be stories of of Zeus and Hera, right?
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Which which what I think have far less value, right.
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But assuming that it's philosophical text for a moment.
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OK, so you'd say that Alicia Benevolia's mistake was is that
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he was man's search for meaning was was found in Plato, which
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was a problem for Alicia Benevolia versus perhaps a way
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that a person can use Western thought would be as a way or a
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springboard for more enhanced to Jewish thought and more
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rigorous, more rigorous study. That's that's what you'd be
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saying. I'm saying I'm saying as an as
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an exercise, it's it's it's it, it.
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It helps to develop rigorous thinking in terms of its value.
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I'd say I'm saying on 2 levels. Number one, understanding what
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is the, what is the, what defines sort of the, the, the,
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the structure of the context within which we're trying to
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reach Torah. And, and I'd say I, I would
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leave it at that. I'm trying to, I'm trying to
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understand truth. I turn to Torah.
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I'm trying to understand the context within which I'm seeking
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truth. Than western philosophy can be
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useful as long as I have the perspective on it that this is
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not my source of truth, but it's a way of understanding the
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context within which I'm. Trying to reach towards truth
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so. Philosophy doesn't have to be
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dangerous at all, as long as people have the right approach.
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That's that's that's quite a big as long as right?
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Because it's indeed, it's a big as long as, because anytime your
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mind is involved in any thought process, the premises that
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underlie that thought insinuate themselves into your mind
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because you're using them, right?
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So it's, it's not, it's, I don't think it's as simple, it's not
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as simple as that. But I, I, I, I, I don't think
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it's, I, I think that there, there certainly is a place for
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those individuals that are interested in this kind of
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thing. There is a place for studying
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these things and it can be useful as long as you to
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understand why you're doing it and you're and how and how it is
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that you're doing it. I will say that you do find,
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especially in the writings of the Rambam, Maimonides or in the
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Hobos Ala Volvos or in Bahaya that they're clearly using
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arguments and thought processes that are almost copy paste from
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the rest Italian thinking. Well, certainly you're doing the
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like. There's no, it's not.
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There's no, there's no what he's not, there's not.
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There's no effort to hide that. No, not at all.
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But it's again, it's like it's that already when you talk about
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the round bomb, you're going to you're going to you're going to
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have a certain, I think much locus over how it is that you
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approach, you approach. Surely.
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Like, because they're, they're those who will say that, you
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know, the Rambam was seeking truth through philosophy and
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that those will tell you that it's not seeking truth.
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He's trying to speak to people who have been influenced by
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philosophy to give them an entree into Torah.
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But he himself, in terms of his own connection to Torah, would
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be very far away from those well.
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We could take our our foot off the gas pedal a little bit and
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user being behind used to help us.
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All of those I think healings also interested in thinking,
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although far less than the round bum, especially in Chari Hood
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where he he discussed the nature of oneness and God's unity, or I
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guess to be more exact lack of unity because he is unison.
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But OK. So would would it be fair to say
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then then that although a person could gain much from
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philosophizing using Tora and we'll have the off of Dallas
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separate ourselves Also Western thought that it is imperative
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that people are to do that and sounds like you're saying that
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they should, that they should have a guide to do that.
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So. I think saying that should is
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it's, it's just it really. There's no should there unless
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you're the kind of person that's interested in that.
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There's no obligation to be looking at this stuff, that's
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for sure. Yeah.
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But if you're the kind of person that has that's broadly curious
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is also trying to understand more deeply.
21:47
What really what defines the age that I'm in and what is the
21:55
unique challenge that? We as a people face in terms of
21:58
engaging God genuinely. But that isn't it.
22:01
Shouldn't that be everyone? Shouldn't we all be interested
22:03
in how to engage God genuinely? Yeah, but if you're, if you
22:06
don't, if you, if you, if, if you are not like if you're not
22:09
the kind of not everybody is like a is a there's not, no one
22:14
says that you have to be be like aware and awake on this
22:19
particular lever. If you happen to have, if you
22:22
have right, you're connected to Barko right And you love the
22:26
Torah and you enjoy being in it and it speaks to you.
22:30
There's nothing that says you have to go over there and open
22:32
these books up to open up this particular level.
22:36
It's not like there isn't more than enough for everybody to be
22:38
doing. Whether you want Hasidis,
22:40
mashava, Musa, there's, there's not enough time in the day to be
22:44
doing everything. There's no obligation to open up
22:46
this level. If you're the type of person
22:48
that thinks that way, if you're naturally thinking that way,
22:51
then you're probably going to feel Hasser on a certain level
22:54
that you don't have some kind of a deeper sense of what is really
22:58
defining that context that you're working.
23:00
It sounds like what you're saying this is and this is my
23:02
personal belief which I usually don't share on the show, but it
23:05
sounds very desolate, like with Dessler in one place, strive for
23:08
truth. He says if you have full comfort
23:12
and dass of a country where you are so feel free to delve more
23:16
into Jewish thought if you wish. But he implies that However, if,
23:22
if you do have questions and you need to seek.
23:25
So seek. Yeah, I, I really do think that
23:27
that that's the right approach. I'm, I'm personally very against
23:30
people that push philosophy because it exists.
23:33
I see no reason to do this. But I also don't think it's
23:36
right to stick one's head in the sand if they feel bothered.
23:39
Questions need answers. And if they didn't, boy,
23:42
tomorrow would be so much easier and be a lot simpler.
23:45
And my our jobs would be much easier as well.
23:47
So I do think that that it's integral.
23:49
It's, it's it's critical for one's relationship to college
23:52
brochure to got to be, to be deep.
23:54
The question is, is what do you need to get that depth?
23:57
What is your depth look? Like it's also a question.
23:59
Yeah, that's. That what I find more often is
24:04
that often people are interested in in learning philosophy
24:07
because they think that's the standard for being an it being
24:13
an intellectual meaning it's like because you, you know, it's
24:17
like, it's like you're. Cool if you wouldn't play them.
24:20
It's like cool, but rather no, it's worse than that.
24:22
It's I'm not I'm I'm not a really thinking personal as I do
24:26
it. That has to do with the fact
24:28
that you're living in you're living in a larger culture as as
24:31
much as you might be from depending on how where you have
24:33
the world out there. So we, there's so many levels on
24:37
which obviously we are deeply influenced by the, the values of
24:44
that larger culture. And it's like it's, it's, it's
24:47
not, it's not, it's, it's not, it's not, it's often not coming
24:51
from a good place. This feeling of the need.
24:53
I need to learn philosophy because otherwise I'm really not
24:55
such a smart person. It's, it has to do with adopt.
24:58
Those values are everywhere. Like the, the ties that the
25:00
buckram are buying. You know, what, what, what, what
25:03
suit is a cut? What what suit is considered a
25:05
fashionable? That's all coming from the
25:07
outside. We are deeply, deeply influenced
25:09
by the values of that culture. What kind of car I want to buy?
25:12
Should we have enough money to get a car right, But whatever it
25:14
is, you got to have I I, I mean, again, if you're, if you're
25:17
obviously think they can't want an iPhone because that's, you
25:20
know, the smartphone is bad, but I don't know, maybe there are
25:22
differences of flip phones. I have no idea my goals use I
25:25
use smartphones. So everybody or you know, what
25:28
kind of computer you, you want to have.
25:30
We're all deeply influenced by a value structure.
25:33
That's what call it that's a an intrinsic part of go is.
25:36
So I find it often I feel that when a person is they approach
25:39
me and they're interested in philosophy.
25:41
It's not, it's not. It's often coming from tainted
25:44
the place. Yeah, yeah.
25:46
You know, this is one of the things I lament the most about
25:49
the, the, the Jewish world, and not because it's a problem with
25:52
it, it's because it's a beautiful part of it.
25:55
There's something called misora. We have a tradition and every
25:59
person involved in that tradition, if they're a leader.
26:02
So that goes all the way back to Moses on the mountain, all the
26:06
way back to Moe Shobeno. And we have guys in yeshiva and
26:11
we have girls in seminary on occasion that they say, I know
26:14
better than the rabbi or rabbiton.
26:16
And therefore I, I will deviate. I will create my own thought
26:21
processing and God's happy with it because it's who I am.
26:24
It's individuality. I actually just give a Joshua
26:26
right now for this huge channel about how important it is to be
26:30
to have your place in Kali's role and, and, and Hanapi Darko.
26:34
And that's all important. But when it comes to how you
26:37
think and how you look at the world, your Rebbe Rabbiton is
26:42
your key. And I'm not sure how many other
26:45
religions have that. How many other religions have
26:47
sages that that the sages dot job is to be responsible for
26:52
that person that comes next, right?
26:55
So when you're becoming a person that you're going to be the rest
27:00
of your life, your Rebbe is all you got.
27:04
So often I get the question, and I'm sure everyone you are gentle
27:08
has this question of why am I not doing certain things?
27:12
You know, why, why am I not doing better at my job?
27:16
And it could go all the way up to why am I unfaithful to my
27:19
wife is a is a huge range. Why, why am I, why am I not
27:22
doing things that I think I want to do?
27:23
And I think the issue is, is the way that we do things is split
27:27
up into two categories. 1 is discipline, which is the lowest
27:31
form of controlling yourself. Discipline means is I might not
27:35
deep down have a philosophical structure that makes me want or
27:40
not want to do particular thing, but I want to want to have that
27:44
structure. So I forced myself I, I tell
27:46
myself to have to do it. You know, my dad will take away
27:49
my allowance, whatever it may be.
27:52
And this is laudable, but barely because it's, it's a Band-Aid
27:55
over something much deeper. But people, I think failed to
27:58
realize is the reason why people do things or don't do things is
28:02
because they believe in them or they don't, they deeply want
28:06
them or they don't. The way to change behavior going
28:09
forward is having the philosophical.
28:11
And I see philosophical like I, I don't mean David Hume.
28:13
What I mean philosophical is, I mean, I mean the Torah.
28:16
And we'll have those of those maybe David Hume.
28:17
But the thing that you are inside that makes who all of
28:21
your beliefs is incongruous with that thing that you believe that
28:26
you want. And there's all of the searching
28:30
that I think young people have, but it's not guided by people
28:34
that help you make that philosophical basis, which I
28:36
think is why Robert Kagan, what you're doing and what other
28:40
seminaries and yeshivas are doing are so critical.
28:42
Because we're taking people at a young age and we're trying to
28:46
teach them and show them this is the way to be, right?
28:51
This is who who you believe in and why you believe in it.
28:55
I think a person bereft of that is is what the young kids say is
29:00
an NPC an unplayable character? You're you're just shall on
29:04
following the whims of your own hedonistic pleasures.
29:08
But would you agree or disagree with that analysis?
29:11
I mean, I would, I would. Phrase it a little differently.
29:14
I would I would phrase it as, you know, they're different
29:17
levels to yourself and your experience of yourself.
29:21
And what we're really trying to do is we're trying to shift
29:26
where you're, where who you are now is anchored and and.
29:32
You're Rabam, your teachers. It it turns out that what
29:39
they're saying is actually less. Important than who they are as
29:42
people as dugma OT for the for for for the buck women for the
29:47
for for the girls as if it's a person that they.
29:52
Are attracted to as a person. And a person that really
29:56
commands their respect, then that actually gives them it
30:00
gives you a much stronger. Basis to be shifting.
30:05
Things on the inside and obviously what they're saying is
30:07
important, but the words alone are never going to are not going
30:12
to do it. It really has to do.
30:13
It's not where your head is at, it's really what part of the
30:16
heart you're anchoring yourself in.
30:18
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I'm not sure I agree.
30:21
I think that you're definitely just respectfully, obviously,
30:24
and but Anya cutten would say how a person acts and respects
30:29
that person is absolutely crucial because you won't
30:31
understand the things that the the structure that they're
30:33
teaching you, But the structure is the icker meaning how how
30:37
they view the world and why they view it in that way and the
30:40
terror that they're passing down.
30:42
I I would think would be more important than than how you view
30:45
them as a person. No.
30:47
In terms of influencing them, probably not right.
30:50
In terms of right, right. Right.
30:52
In terms of influence, I agree. That's my point.
30:54
That's my point. OK, that's my point that that I
30:56
agree too. OK, in other words, ultimately
30:59
what you're saying is nothing more than articulating who you
31:02
are on the inside, right? OK, so it's like it's like, and
31:06
what, what, what, what, what our students need more than hearing
31:10
the correct words. Is a hero.
31:13
Is is is is seeing it in a form that really speaks to them
31:19
right. And you know, say that you can't
31:21
separate one out from the other, but someone is saying great
31:24
things that they can't relate to.
31:25
They're not going to move right. Some of they ready to even
31:28
they're not saying such great things.
31:29
They get influenced. That's why you want to find
31:30
somebody really has both. I remember I had a a student
31:33
once that he had a whole bunch of things that were bothering
31:37
him emotionally and also philosophically.
31:40
And I gave him direction of exactly what he needed to do in
31:44
order to shift him. And he didn't listen to any one
31:48
of those things. I think perhaps because he
31:50
didn't respect me as a person off, which is fine.
31:53
But there was another Tom at at around the same time that had
31:56
very similar issues. And I told him what I thought
31:59
would really help him in terms of thought and, you know,
32:02
journaling XYZ and he did everything and he ended out
32:07
really well. So yeah, definitely in terms of
32:10
influence, you have to love and respect your teacher,
32:14
definitely. For a person that does want to
32:20
have access to Western thought, is there like a a checklist or
32:25
advice that you'd give them other than saying which what
32:27
you've tell them back before what you've established before,
32:29
which is know that that your anchor is Torah and your breath
32:35
is simply Western philosophy. But what else would you tell
32:39
them to prepare themselves for such a journey should they
32:41
embark on it? I mean, I, I think you know what
32:47
we were just speaking about. If you really are interested in
32:50
that stuff, if you, if you really want to do it, you,
32:54
you're best off having someone that you respect that is a
33:01
anchored in Torah, that understands those texts and can
33:05
help you with putting it in its proper perspective as you
33:10
connected up to Torah. That's extremely, extremely
33:14
important. I mean, if you're already a well
33:17
developed, mature in your Torah understanding, then you can do
33:22
that on your own. But you're talking about a level
33:26
of maturity and development that takes many years to, you know,
33:31
many years to work through. Right.
33:34
It's it's, you know, I mean, I, I like, I mean, I think reading
33:42
some of the stuff that I've written can be helpful because
33:45
that's a lot of what I do in my writing is, is putting things
33:51
into their perspective so that when you're looking at this
33:54
stuff, at least understand what that brought, what the broader
33:57
picture is within what you're looking at it.
34:01
But I, I'm not, it's not for me. I recommending reading in terms
34:04
of what's out there and terms like that.
34:06
I'm not. So I'm not so much, I'm more.
34:08
That's right. No, I was.
34:09
I was asking for your advice. It could be whatever, whatever
34:11
you wish it to be, or not me. Aristotle claims to the
34:17
beginning of metaphysics that true wisdom is knowing the
34:21
nature of things, not the practical effect of the things
34:26
themselves. So what is a hammer and not what
34:29
it does? Do you think that this level of
34:34
thought is something that would deepen the everyday man's
34:38
relationship with all things around them in a religious
34:42
fashion as well? First of all, you know what
34:47
you're saying is something which is so not descriptive of the way
34:54
Western thought and philosophy approaches things now, Yeah.
34:58
Yeah. So I'm just saying.
35:00
That's why I said Aristotelian. Yeah, I'm taking it out of the
35:03
and Aristotle's understanding of what exactly The thing is, I
35:09
think is very, very different from the Taurus.
35:13
But certainly one of the major and the reason I make that
35:17
distinction in terms of IRSO versus now is that this was
35:21
something that remote Shaffiro used to speak about all the
35:23
time. He's talking about it many, many
35:25
times. The basis of Western thought,
35:30
certainly in our times, is it only tries to understand what
35:35
something does, right? It defines what it is by what it
35:38
does. And from a Torah perspective,
35:42
it's almost like, that's almost like saying people exist in
35:45
order to exist, right? So, you know, we the whole point
35:50
of Torah is, you know, like a lion is lion, you know, like
35:54
what in the West, it plays a certain point in an ecological
35:57
system and it does this because there was an opening and it's
36:01
there and it does this because that way it lives and it's
36:03
strong. What is a lion with that
36:06
question to us means is why did Kurdish barko put this in the
36:10
Bria and how does it advance my understanding of myself and my
36:13
relationship with the Kurdish Barko?
36:15
Right. So that's the, you know that
36:17
that's not an easy question for us to ask because we don't it's
36:21
very hard for us to understand what the answer to that is.
36:23
Not only the Torah suddenly writes out what the lion is,
36:26
it's and it's also going back to what we're talking about
36:29
earlier. We so deeply affected by living
36:34
in the context of Western culture in terms of we sort of
36:38
we kind of we're happy when we know what the lion is in terms
36:41
of what the lion does, but we don't even know how to ask that
36:45
question of what is it? But absolutely that what to take
36:48
on to develop. Again, there's a much longer
36:50
discussion in terms of how how affected we are both by Greek
36:54
thought and and and Roman thought, but the.
36:58
You know, realizing that. The goal of Torah is to
37:04
interpret everything in the world as a means medium tool,
37:09
pop whatever lines you want to use to allow my the development
37:14
of my of our relationship with the Kurdish bar code is
37:18
obviously critical. And as long as we're on the
37:21
topic of differences between the two and this is a very timely
37:25
aspect to it, which is that. Can I just make a quick point?
37:28
Yeah, you said something great. You see well how the Aristotle
37:34
feels the need to say this like that.
37:37
It's wisdoms responsibility to understand the nature of things.
37:42
And in the Torah it's not really so explicit, but to me it's so
37:46
much more explicit than explicit.
37:48
And just to give an explanation to this as some people bring us,
37:51
oh wow, how deep Greek thought is.
37:53
And they bring Theseus's ship as an example.
37:56
And I tell them, have you ever read Misaka's Calum once?
37:59
It is so long and so detailed. And so, I mean, it's so deep.
38:06
And it's all about the the nature of whether a clia is
38:09
macabre Tom or not macabre toma susceptible to to impurity or
38:13
not. What, why is Kazal so interested
38:16
in these things? I think it's, I think it's
38:18
exactly the thing that you're saying.
38:20
I think Khazal all over is talking about what is the
38:23
definition of a thing and why is that important?
38:25
Because they're all Halakhanaf communists.
38:27
There are differences in Jewish law that that govern what
38:29
something is. It's all about him, right?
38:32
So I, I think that that that you're so right.
38:35
And it's like what? When when people make the claim
38:38
that that other philosophies are more interested in the nature of
38:43
things, I say that's not true. I don't know of another.
38:46
I've heard such a thing before, and I think it's like.
38:47
So I'd say the exact opposite. I'd say I don't know of another
38:51
philosophy that is as obsessed with the nature of things than
38:57
Judaism and its relationship to God.
39:00
It's, I mean, there's, there's a lot I would, I would want to add
39:06
a number of, you know, the aspects of that, which is, it's
39:12
part of the problem is that when Khazal are talking about the
39:16
deepest, deeper stuff, they do it in a their, their language of
39:22
communication is very different from anything we're used to by
39:26
the words. You could take a madrish and you
39:29
could write. If you if you know how to read
39:32
Madrish, you could write 3 or 4 chapters of a book on one matter
39:37
and Hazal have put all of this into what looks like a cartoon
39:43
and you know, understanding how to read Hazal and understand
39:49
what is that's that take that takes years of studying with
39:54
someone who's a guide for you. There's no other way to do that.
39:56
There's no other way to do it. So most people have no idea what
40:00
Tara has no idea and. But in terms of understanding,
40:05
when you say what it is, the halachic ramifications often
40:12
don't really communicate with us living in the world that we're
40:18
living in, what the thing actually is.
40:21
It's almost more a different form of what it does.
40:24
But isn't you don't think that's implied?
40:27
I'm just, all I'm saying is, you know, what's a clue and how do
40:31
I? It's not just tame or Tahoor.
40:35
Like how do I understand myself and come closer to a Kurdish
40:40
bar? Who?
40:41
As a result of the fact that there's such a thing as a cling.
40:43
No, what is it but. There are more details.
40:45
What does the cling mean? No like mine.
40:47
Would like there's hashivis, there's there's classification
40:50
of KM depending on on your view or what's supposed to be a
40:53
metaphysical view of an item, right?
40:54
I think those those get you closer.
40:57
I'm, I'm not saying they don't, but I'm just saying that there's
40:59
another level there in terms of yes, that is that, that, that
41:04
ultimately, I mean, this is, there's 2 routes.
41:10
There's one route is I'm an evidisham and there's nothing
41:15
deeper than that. I am an evidisham, which means
41:18
that every detail of halacha is relevant to developing my
41:22
relationship with the Khushbu. And that's probably the debt
41:26
that, that's, that, you know, like you pass in Mitsubishi
41:29
first Kavana. But what that means is I have to
41:30
understand that I was commanded to do this right, that the Abdus
41:34
what the you know, what the Rob what, what, what, what the GRA
41:38
calls the Paninius of the Paninius, which is the
41:42
ultimately we're here to serve a cutter's barcode.
41:44
All right. Now, when you see great postgame
41:46
that are just so awash in Torah, they the whole point is how do I
41:51
serve a cutter's barcode? So if you if you if you have
41:55
that perspective, then every single detail of Halaha brings
41:58
you closer to a there's barcode. I think there are a lot of
42:02
people out there that aren't so, you know, are not so anchored in
42:08
that sense of I am serving Kurdish bar of I right.
42:12
So when you're when when you are not someone who is so defined by
42:19
that ultimate definition of what it is to be human, then we, we,
42:24
we, we, we, we seek on a more understanding level, who am I,
42:31
you know, you know, what does it mean to be connected up with
42:34
Kurdish baraku? How does anything in this world
42:37
enhance my sense of who I am, what I am, how I serve the
42:40
Kurdish baraku? You know, it's, it's, you know,
42:45
every, you know, everything was everything is created through
42:48
through through an act of speech of the Kurdish Baraku.
42:50
And deeper is always with intention, intention in the
42:52
context of the conversation and but able to understand the world
42:55
in that way really challenging because we actually that that
42:58
turns not explicit about these kinds is not explicit about
43:01
this. You begin to get and develop a
43:03
sense for these things. You know, as you begin to amass
43:07
a larger sort of context or sense of of how Hazel understand
43:11
the world and and and and and understand us.
43:14
But as I'm saying it for the person who genuinely is an
43:19
evidence Shem, there's nothing more beautiful than that.
43:21
And then this complete immersion is every every, every letter and
43:25
every word is being for those of us who are not, they're exactly
43:31
who are made. Yeah, I'll buy.
43:33
Right. So then then in a certain sense,
43:35
the tour is more challenging in terms of, you know what, what am
43:39
I really being told that who I am, what I am and every time
43:42
trying to understand everything in the world.
43:43
How does it, you know, how to obviously, if I understood more,
43:46
the whole lock would be, you know, if you're on a level of a
43:48
graw, the whole lock itself is telling you this, this deeper
43:50
stuff. For most of us, putting the two
43:52
of them together is is pretty challenging.
43:58
What do you think is the is the overarching?
44:05
Well, I guess you maybe you've already answered it, but ask it
44:08
just in case. So you forget the same answer.
44:10
What do you think is the point for a young man or young woman
44:14
that has decided that they want to pick up a Hulbasila bubble,
44:17
so they want to pick up Ron Ban? What is what is their goal?
44:20
What would you tell them? Look for X what's what's their
44:22
what's their framing that you would give them?
44:24
And I think this is so important.
44:25
The first time I learned is Elsa charm as a young man.
44:30
It was the driest, most boring, completely not didn't add
44:34
anything to my life and I just sat there while particular
44:38
Raphael mentioned no just told it to me what a waste of my
44:41
time. Years later, I picked it up
44:44
again and I could not put that the safer down and it forever
44:49
changed my life. And it really bothered me.
44:52
Like, what was I what was I missing?
44:54
It certainly was not my Rebbe. My Rebbe had it down.
44:56
What was wrong with me? And it's because I didn't put it
44:59
in the proper framework. I I, I started that share with
45:03
that Rebbe years and years ago because I wanted to get from one
45:05
cover to the other. The next time I approach it is
45:08
because I wanted to get the understanding of the world
45:11
through the eyes of the rum how which the grow thought was so,
45:14
so crucially important. So what framing would you give
45:17
someone who's sitting down and embarking on their journey?
45:29
I think your first step is to find someone who speaks to you.
45:36
I mean, usually it's going to be a.
45:37
Person and not a safer. And then as you begin to develop
45:43
a cohesive understanding of yourself and vision of the
45:49
world, then when you open up these svarum.
45:54
You have to. They have to resonate with you
45:57
and that the you can't resonate with you until you're developed
46:00
to a point where either you're very curious about it on a
46:04
technical level that could that's helpful.
46:08
But if you've already begun to develop a sense of I'm, I'm
46:12
striving to understand myself. You know in a certain way and
46:17
that's really my goal. Then when you start opening up
46:20
these firm, then they speak to you more.
46:22
But I think that that initial step of getting there, you
46:26
probably need a person. That you respect unless you
46:30
happen to discover the book. You know, if you discover the
46:32
right book then maybe it'll speak to you, but I think it's
46:36
probably easier to discover a. Person, maybe not, I don't know,
46:39
but it's who you who you really know.
46:43
You realize this, this person is really on another level, right?
46:49
You know, it's like, it's like, it's unbelievable, like it.
46:52
And you and you, you feel this deep respect for that person,
46:55
not trying to be like them. I was busy.
46:58
A mentor is not somebody you're trying to be like.
47:00
It's someone who you want to do to yourself what he did to
47:02
himself, right? And look different to you.
47:03
That's going to look in them. Right.
47:06
Maybe we'll end off with we started with relationship in
47:08
Avuya, maybe we'll end with her be mayor.
47:13
If I'm not mistaken, the Gemara, the Talmud and air event says
47:15
that Mayor's Shiram, his lectures were so incredibly
47:20
rigorous that many people would not come because they could not
47:23
understand him. Romero was a giant giants and
47:27
the man that he learned from was Alicia Benavoya.
47:30
And even after Alicia's fall and he has become after the mind
47:36
that made the Rove, Alicia Benavoya was still somewhere
47:40
there and with Mayor was able to see past that in order to gain
47:46
that ability to touch the infinite.
47:51
What I take away from that story is that there are people around
47:55
us, like you say that have that ability to touch the infinite.
48:00
And Remair felt that he could even at his level, he couldn't
48:03
get that thinking alone in the back of the basement rush, he
48:06
sought out his mentor. And we should all seek to
48:12
understand the world better and seek at our mentors.
48:14
And hopefully they're not exactly.
48:16
We should've been of Leah's right, but that merits a shame.
48:19
They'll help us find. Ms. Rabbi Kagan, thank you so
48:21
much for joining us here today. Pleasure.
48:23
OK.