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Reclaiming Gospel Clarity with Brad Kafer · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded podcast,
• 0:16
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:19
  in our messy
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: ministries.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:22
  I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church here
• 0:26
  in Paxinus,
• 0:27
  Pennsylvania.
• 0:28
  And I am delighted on this particular episode to share with you
• 0:32
  a conversation
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: between myself and a fellow Brad,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Brad Kafer.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: He works with the Reclamation Podcast,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also Reclamation Network,
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  SPEAKER_00: a group of individuals,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: brothers in Christ,
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  SPEAKER_00: who are committed to clarifying the gospel in order to find assurance,
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  but also to declare words of assurance to Christians who are
• 0:54
  weak and weary and
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: worn out.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Brad has just been a really good friend.
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  He invited me to join the Reclamation Network cohort and to
• 1:02
  sort of be on the back
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: end,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only of just being encouraging to some of the voices there,
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  SPEAKER_00: but to work on potential episodes for their podcast stream,
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  but also just be amongst brothers who are seeking and always
• 1:15
  and forever helping.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Leaning into law gospel clarity and what that means,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially not only in the life of a minister,
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  SPEAKER_00: but in the life of the church.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the topic for today's episode.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Me and Brad get into what are these words of law and gospel,
• 1:32
  this distinction that Martin Luther called the highest art in
• 1:35
  Christendom.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
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  And what does that mean not only just hermeneutically and how
• 1:40
  we understand the
• 1:41
  Bible and how does that inform the way in which we can
• 1:44
  interpret Scripture,
• 1:45
  but also how do those words of long gospel inform and instill
• 1:51
  us the proper
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  SPEAKER_00: homiletics,
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  SPEAKER_00: the way the Word is preached today?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about that,
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  SPEAKER_00: the way in which these words of law and gospel are confused,
• 1:59
  and some of the ramifications and consequences that come when
• 2:03
  that confusion seeps
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  SPEAKER_00: into not just the pulpit,
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  SPEAKER_00: but into the life of Christians in the church.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think this will be a really beneficial and helpful episode for you.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you are unfamiliar with this distinction between law and gospel,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think this will be an episode in which...
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: will sort of hopefully,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: prayerfully,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: whet your appetite towards studying that distinction,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also sort of learning more about it yourself,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: but also it'll help inform you.
• 2:29
  It'll help give you a lot of information on how to see this
• 2:35
  distinction in
• 2:36
  Scripture and just what it means to live a life of assurance
• 2:40
  and faith and how that
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: comes from these words,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: these words of long gospel.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So sit back and relax and enjoy this episode between me and Brad.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that you're blessed by it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll catch you on the other side.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Brad, it is so good to have you on the show again.
• 2:55
  And I say again only because little do people know that this is
• 2:59
  the second take of
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: the same very,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: very same topic that we want to cover today.
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  The Lord had other plans to make that other episode that we
• 3:08
  recorded not work.
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  SPEAKER_00: Technical difficulties on my end.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm so glad that we can do this again.
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  SPEAKER_00: It gives us a chance to revisit this very pertinent subject.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: But before I bury the lead any further, it's just good to see you, Brad.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But why don't you introduce yourself and kind of where you are,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: what the Lord is having you do in this current season,
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  SPEAKER_00: and talk to us about the Reclamation Project.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, brother.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Brad also.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  I don't know if you usually go by Bradley or Brad,
• 3:37
  but I've heard it said both ways for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: My name is just Brad.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I live in Wisconsin.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm married.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: My wife's name is Bethany.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have five children.
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  SPEAKER_01: All their names start with A. So I have straight A's.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a teacher dad joke.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I have a degree in education,
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  SPEAKER_01: currently teach Bible at a Christian school here in Wasa,
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  SPEAKER_01: Wisconsin.
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  SPEAKER_01: In seminary right now, I'm also...
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm also part of the Reclamation.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
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  SPEAKER_01: Something important.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Part of the Reclamation.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the Reclamation is an awesome podcast, but it's more than a podcast.
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  It's a whole group of like-minded brothers from various
• 4:22
  traditions all working
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  SPEAKER_01: together together.
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  SPEAKER_01: to promote the idea of gospel clarity.
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  SPEAKER_01: So our tagline on the Reclamation is Reclaiming Gospel Clarity.
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  My co-host Michael Lewis and I get to do the podcast side of
• 4:35
  things every week,
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  having different guests on from various traditions and just
• 4:39
  talking a lot about the
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: law and the gospel,
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  as well as many other topics that connect back to the
• 4:44
  Reformation and just helping
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  SPEAKER_01: people rest in Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have a bunch of guys behind the scenes and
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of a reclamation cohort,
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  SPEAKER_01: we like to call it,
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  SPEAKER_01: of pastors and leaders from around the Protestant world.
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  SPEAKER_01: We were glad to have you join that recently.
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  SPEAKER_01: So glad to have you as part of the reclamation as well.
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  Jeffrey Perry,
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  for example,
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  pastor at Gospel Way Baptist Church in somewhere,
• 5:11
  North Carolina.
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  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Jeffrey.
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  SPEAKER_01: Somewhere down there in the Good South.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: He is...
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: The website guy.
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  SPEAKER_01: So he's big into like publishing old books,
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  kind of editing them lightly and cleaning them up and then
• 5:29
  republishing them.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: He knows websites.
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  So he created the Reclamation website and created a merch store
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  through Printify.com.
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  SPEAKER_01: And has a blog that he operates through there.
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  He created a free e-book that you can download at the
• 5:44
  Reclamation website.
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  So he's done a lot of that kind of behind-the-scenes work on
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  the website side of things.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we have a great group.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was just in Lexington, Kentucky.
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  A week or so ago and got to spend time at Reforming Truth
• 5:59
  Church with Jeremiah Hurt
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: and the elders of his church,
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  SPEAKER_01: all of whom are part of our reclamation group.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's been a lot of great fellowship.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's guys from the GRN connected with Theocast.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's Ted Rosenblatt, our signature Lutheran brother from 1517.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually a Reformed Episcopalian.
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  Recently joined the Episcopal Church as I decided to pursue
• 6:23
  ordination in an
• 6:24
  Anglican context and use the prayer book and the liturgy as
• 6:28
  part of my ministry.
• 6:29
  But I love the historic Reformed faith,
• 6:33
  whether that's talking Calvin or...
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  SPEAKER_01: People like Ursinus,
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  SPEAKER_01: across the board,
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  SPEAKER_01: obviously Cranmer and the English scene is really important to me.
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  But I've just really personally benefited from discovering the
• 6:48
  law gospel distinction.
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  There was Theocast and then John Fonville,
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  who's a Reformed Anglican in Florida.
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  SPEAKER_01: They really helped me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, I discovered it in the tradition.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like it's there so clearly in a place like the Heidelberg Catechism,
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  SPEAKER_01: in Luther,
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  SPEAKER_01: his commentary on Galatians,
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  SPEAKER_01: super helpful.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I came to clarity about the law and the gospel,
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  SPEAKER_01: the two words that God speaks and what do they do,
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  SPEAKER_01: what are they for,
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  SPEAKER_01: how do they work together,
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  SPEAKER_01: and
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  SPEAKER_01: And that helped my reading of Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: But most of all,
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  SPEAKER_01: right,
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  the Reformation was reclaiming this distinction and this
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  clarity around the gospel
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  SPEAKER_01: because it brings comfort and rest to weary,
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  SPEAKER_01: worn-out sinners whose consciences are beat up by the law.
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  So justification by faith alone was rediscovered and sort of
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  rearticulated in
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And classically,
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  SPEAKER_01: a Protestant is because the gospel gives hope,
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  SPEAKER_01: life,
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  SPEAKER_01: comfort,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it sets people free.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I experienced that personally,
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  so I want to share the joy of the clarity of the gospel with
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  other Christians.
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  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  I've benefited so much just being a part of the reclamation
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  cohort and just being
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  around other like-minded brothers who are similarly convicted
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  by but also comforted
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  SPEAKER_00: in these two words,
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  SPEAKER_00: the words of law and gospel,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is a distinction which,
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  SPEAKER_00: as you rightly noted,
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  is rooted in a lot of other Christian traditions that are not
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  necessarily just the
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  SPEAKER_00: Lutheran tradition or even the Anglican or Episcopalian tradition,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's rooted in
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  SPEAKER_00: And we could say in, we could say the Bible itself.
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  And it's something that I think is very much worth considering
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  once again.
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  SPEAKER_00: I know there's lots of long gospel podcasts and discussions,
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  but I don't think there is enough clarity or emphasis to be put
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  on these two words,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is why I wanted to bring you on to talk about it,
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  because I think it would be really beneficial for you and I to
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  chat about what
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  SPEAKER_00: these words are,
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  SPEAKER_00: what these words do,
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  SPEAKER_00: we could say.
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  But then also how these words are sometimes confused and some
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  of the ramifications of that.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think if you had to boil down or if we could get all of the issues,
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  SPEAKER_00: the problems with what is going on in the church today,
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  SPEAKER_00: you could probably pin it to a number of different things.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I think first and foremost,
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  one of those would be the confusion surrounding the words of
• 10:02
  God's law and gospel
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  SPEAKER_00: and what they are supposed to do in us and for us and to the church,
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  SPEAKER_00: what they actually give us.
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  And I think confusing these words brings about so many
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  different ramifications,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially when it comes to the church's view of sanctification or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the trendy word for that is discipleship.
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  How does it view those who are in the church and how they are
• 10:25
  being quote-unquote
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  discipled and how they are being sanctified and all those sorts
• 10:29
  of things?
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  So to break that down,
• 10:31
  before we get into necessarily the confusion,
• 10:34
  let's spend some more time.
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  SPEAKER_00: How can we understand these two words themselves?
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  SPEAKER_00: And what is this quote-unquote law-gospel distinction?
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  And how can we better identify it but also come to recognize it
• 10:49
  within Scripture?
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  Yeah,
• 10:52
  so when we approach Scripture,
• 10:53
  the law and the gospel is two—they're two words from God.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the whole Scripture can be divided into law and gospel—
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is not like Old Testament, New Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is like a law word from God and a gospel word from God.
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  So under the law would be all of those scriptures that are
• 11:16
  commanding from God.
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  SPEAKER_01: So commanding you to love your neighbor,
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  SPEAKER_01: commanding you to obey,
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  SPEAKER_01: commanding you to put to death what is earthly within you.
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  SPEAKER_01: These are examples of the law.
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  SPEAKER_01: The gospel is all the promises, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: God has given you connected to the personal work of Jesus Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the law is do this and live.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the gospel is live and do this, or better yet, let me start over.
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  SPEAKER_01: The law says do, and the gospel says done.
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  So the law is the Ten Commandments,
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  but more than that,
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  all of the laws that God has given.
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  It's the imperative mood and voice of the scriptures commanding
• 12:02
  creatures how to
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: love and serve God and neighbor.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And then the gospel is the proclamation and the promise of all
• 12:11
  that God has done in
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  SPEAKER_01: Christ for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: precisely because you haven't done the law and can't keep the law.
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  So that gets into a little bit of why they're both needed and
• 12:22
  how they work together.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's easy to confuse them because people,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's not like every passage is like,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: this is law.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now this is gospel.
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  SPEAKER_01: It has to do with context.
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  You have to be able to begin to understand some people point to
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  like indicative
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  SPEAKER_01: mood,
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  SPEAKER_01: imperative mood.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you have the indicative, you are hidden with Christ and God.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  and then you have the imperative,
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  put to death what is earthly within you.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it's flowing out of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 12:49
  it has to do with the third use of the law in that context
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  versus the first use of
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  SPEAKER_01: the law.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is the law being held up as a mirror to show you sin,
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  or is the law being used to light the path in front of you to
• 13:02
  show this is what
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  SPEAKER_01: obedience to Christ by the Spirit looks like?
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  SPEAKER_01: So are you responding to God fully?
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  SPEAKER_01: as a regenerate Christian,
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  SPEAKER_01: or are you responding to the law sort of considered apart from Christ?
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a lot of different moving parts to talk about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is the gospel proper?
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  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what is the law?
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  SPEAKER_01: What are its uses?
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: How did the law and the gospel function in the Bible?
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  SPEAKER_01: But when you're thinking about Scripture and the law-gospel distinction,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a hermeneutical aspect that all the Reformers affirm,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether it's Protestant—I mean,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's Lutheran or Reforms or otherwise.
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  Everybody in the 1500s who's coming on to this evangelical
• 13:47
  revitalization of the
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: church is seeing that the Word of God written has two principal parts,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: law and gospel—
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  SPEAKER_01: Theodore Beza has a great quote where he says,
• 13:59
  ignorance of this distinction between the law and the gospel is
• 14:02
  one of the
• 14:03
  principal sources of the abuses which corrupted and still
• 14:06
  corrupt Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we want to get it right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So as this interpretive framework for the scriptures,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: be a workman who needs not to be ashamed,
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  SPEAKER_01: rightly dividing the word of truth.
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  SPEAKER_01: The law's there.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's holy and just, but it can only do what it can do.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a compass, right?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: A compass can help you find where north is,
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  but a compass can't help you in the standpoint of giving you
• 14:34
  energy or life or
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: power.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the gospel is the power of God for salvation.
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  SPEAKER_01: The gospel is where you receive the power to walk in the ways of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: But we don't want to instrumentalize the gospel either.
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  It's not like God gave you the gospel and now you're going to
• 14:54
  be justified by an
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: obedience to the law that's fueled by the gospel.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: That would be another example of confusing the two words.
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  SPEAKER_01: The gospel comes apart from the law,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: gives us a righteousness that's external to us,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's earned by Jesus Christ,
• 15:11
  and that external righteousness is credited to our account
• 15:15
  because we are in the
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: righteous one.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to constantly be thinking and praying,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: is this law,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: is this gospel,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: what is this text soliciting from me as a response?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it, you know, the law is going to solicit repentance.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to solicit conviction of sin,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: whereas the gospel is going to solicit grateful obedience,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: perhaps,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: or faith.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So they have different—they're given for different purposes,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: and they have different effects,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: and they work different things in the center,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: but they work together.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so the primary way that we want to think about law and gospel,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 15:58
  in the Protestant tradition is not first and foremost through
• 16:02
  the hermeneutical
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: lens,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: as important as that is.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: We actually want to think about it more in the liturgical setting.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: So when God's people are gathered together—
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: by God for the public assembly to worship him,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: they're being spoken to by God in these two words.
• 16:24
  So the real power of law and gospel that Luther and others
• 16:28
  discovered was not first
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: and foremost in the hermeneutics,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: even though that's valid and important.
• 16:34
  It's actually in the speech act of law putting to death sinners
• 16:39
  in the assembly and
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: gospel resurrecting sinners in the assembly.
• 16:43
  So Luther kind of discovered and articulated justification by
• 16:46
  faith alone.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I should say rediscovered because it wasn't new to him.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's in St.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Paul and it's in the fathers.
• 16:53
  But he rediscovered the beauty of justification by faith alone
• 16:57
  in the context of
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: the sacrament of penance.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 17:01
  But instead of hoping in the perfectness of his contrition to
• 17:06
  receive the word of
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: absolution and pardon,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was, I'm confessing sin.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I probably have some I haven't confessed yet.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sorry enough.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have perfect contrition.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to recite.
• 17:22
  But God speaks in this sacrament,
• 17:26
  which he later redefined as a renewal of the baptism.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's only two sacraments.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord's Supper and baptism.
• 17:33
  But this idea of like confession and absolution became a
• 17:37
  renewing of the baptism.
• 17:40
  But,
• 17:41
  you know,
• 17:42
  God has appointed this minister to speak on his behalf in the
• 17:48
  assembly.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, you're forgiven.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so God says you're forgiven.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: God can't lie.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: So trust his word.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Luther has this very, like, the word of God is not just scripture.
• 18:02
  It's scripture in God's appointed place and time doing the
• 18:07
  thing that God sent it forth to do.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the hearing of the law...
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like private study of scripture, you can still find law and gospel.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can still experience conviction of sin,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: still be sweetly consoled by the promises,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: still grow in your grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
• 18:24
  But the ordinary means of grace is come into the assembly where
• 18:28
  God has gathered his people.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: In the assembly, you're actually being killed by the law.
• 18:54
  And then the word of the gospel comes and sets you free and
• 18:57
  makes you alive.
• 18:58
  And so there's this mortification and vivification in our
• 19:02
  sanctification that's
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: like the outflowing of that.
• 19:05
  We have remaining corruption in us,
• 19:07
  but the word of law continues to cut into that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: But the word of gospel continues to call us forth into new life.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So even in sanctification,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: if we think about the concepts of mortification and vivification,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: even those are connected back to the law and the gospel.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is calling forth this new life we have in Jesus Christ?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's the gospel.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel is the power of God for salvation.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: That includes sanctification.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So God is doing a work of sanctifying his people.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the primary place for that is in the assembly.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Where he's feeding you,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: where he's nourishing your faith through preaching,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: baptism,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: the Lord's Supper,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: fellowship,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: the breaking of bread,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: the prayers.
• 19:49
  And so the church becomes this place where God is actively
• 19:54
  using his two words to
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: do what he wants to do with his people.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much that we can unpack there.
• 20:04
  But the two things that stand out to me from what you were
• 20:06
  saying is the idea that
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: this word of gospel is a dynamic word,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: but also it's a word that's found within sort of,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: the assembly of the church itself.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is a hermeneutical lens by which we can understand the word of God,
• 20:22
  whether we're going to an epistle or whether we're going to a
• 20:24
  prophetic book,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: which we can unpack in a little bit.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think
• 20:28
  as you rightly said it is something that comes forth in our
• 20:31
  homiletics not just how
• 20:32
  we prepare sermons but how they are delivered which is just to
• 20:35
  say it's not a the
• 20:37
  word of gospel the good news of jesus christ is not necessarily
• 20:41
  just a past tense
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: declaration but it is a right now declaration in the sense that
• 20:47
  The good news is the fact that we as sinner saints are being
• 20:52
  put to death and made
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: alive by the very same word,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: here is Christ,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: your justification.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Here is the one who is your substitute,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: the one who makes pardon for you by bearing all of your sins.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is a word that is right now.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: which, again, is tied to that word in Romans 1.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've been so enamored with the word in Romans 1.16,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: where,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's one of the more famous passages in Romans,
• 21:18
  the passage that sort of led to Luther's rediscovery of the
• 21:22
  words of law and
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: gospel,
• 21:24
  where the Apostle Paul calls it that the gospel is the power of
• 21:28
  God unto salvation.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: The word power there is where we get our word dynamic or dynamism.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: which is the same word you can find in other places,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: not just there,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: but it comes out in the book of Colossians.
• 21:39
  And it has this sense in which all of this life and energy is
• 21:44
  packed into this word.
• 21:46
  And those who preach it are also those who are sending forth
• 21:50
  all of that power
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: through the preached word,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: which again highlights what you're saying.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: The preached word of God.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: is the word that kills and makes alive.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this happens in the congregation,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: in that place where God's people assemble,
• 22:07
  which is what a beautiful way to understand what the gathering
• 22:11
  of God's people is.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a gathering of people who are,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: dead in their sins,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: but are being made alive right then and there.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a word that's dynamic.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 22:21
  And that's one of the things I'd like to compare it to is like
• 22:27
  you and I are both married men.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like the day of our wedding, we went through a ceremony.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: We gathered with people.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had an authorized minister meeting.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who had authority to pronounce, pronounce us man and wife.
• 22:42
  And so like we had a gathering,
• 22:43
  a public assembly where family and friends came around.
• 22:48
  And then like there was a moment when the minister said,
• 22:51
  and I pronounce you man and wife.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And like that was established.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:57
  And,
• 22:58
  you know,
• 22:58
  you could read about marriage in a book and that can benefit
• 23:02
  your marriage.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you can,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I could say the words right now,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I pronounce you man and wife,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: and those words have no authority,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: no power.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's no dynamic there.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not—nothing is being established in that speech.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: But when you gather with the church—
• 23:20
  And the minister says,
• 23:21
  I baptize you in the name of the triune God,
• 23:24
  right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: In that sacrament, there's actually an establishing of covenant.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we think about what baptism is, but you actually have to get wet.
• 23:37
  And you have to get wet by somebody who's been sent by Christ
• 23:41
  and duly ordained to
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: administer that sacrament to you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing with the Lord's Supper.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like we sometimes can get lost in the academy,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: in the academics of it all,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: thinking about different theories on Christ's presence in the supper.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: But like the unanimous, I would say, testimony of the saints is...
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: is when I gather with the body and we partake of the Lord's Supper,
• 24:10
  it's a participation in the blood of Christ and a participation
• 24:13
  in the body of
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Christ.
• 24:14
  And I receive Jesus and I'm drawn deeper into communion with
• 24:20
  him and with my
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: brothers and sisters.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously we can get into why,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: transubstantiation is a bad articulation of that mystery.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: But like at the end of the day,
• 24:32
  like it's Christians gathering to commune with the risen Christ
• 24:39
  in the way that
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: he's instituted according to his word.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we're saying we experience something profound in this ritual that
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: that it's not like eating bread at home.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was the context of the Reformation.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: They were reforming worship.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was people in the church,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: pastors and theologians,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: thinking about when we gather and we hear the Word of God—
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And faith comes through hearing the Word of God.
• 25:14
  Like,
• 25:14
  what's happening to my faith while it's being confirmed,
• 25:17
  quickened,
• 25:18
  strengthened?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 25:20
  and so I think a lot of times we want to abstract doctrine too
• 25:26
  far out of the drama
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: of the assembly.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:29
  And so that's just one of the things I've been becoming more
• 25:32
  passionate about as I
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: think about law gospel distinction.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you're not gathering for the ordinary means of grace,
• 25:39
  you're not fully coming into like the sphere of where this is
• 25:44
  really going on.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that's not to knock private devotion.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you're studying the Bible, you can be reminded of your baptism.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, read Romans 6.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can hear the gospel afresh.
• 25:57
  The Holy Spirit can minister to you privately in profound ways
• 26:01
  that are encouraging
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: to your faith.
• 26:03
  But there's something to be said that the ordinary means of
• 26:06
  grace are gathering
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: with the body,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: hearing the law,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: confessing your sin,
• 26:12
  hearing the gospel and these liturgical movements clarified by
• 26:17
  the doctrine,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 26:19
  are actually like a dynamic thing where God is actively doing
• 26:24
  what he promised.
• 26:26
  And that's one of the clarifying pieces that I would really
• 26:29
  love to see more people
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: come to because,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:32
  in the Protestant church where we've sort of divorced ourselves
• 26:35
  from tradition and
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm justified by faith and,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 26:40
  Every believer is a priest,
• 26:41
  and so we twist that to mean I don't need corporate worship.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's me and Jesus.
• 26:49
  I can go out in the woods,
• 26:50
  read my Bible,
• 26:50
  and it's not going to impact me negatively.
• 26:54
  Whereas the unanimous voice of the church for the last 2,000
• 26:58
  years is like,
• 26:59
  we gather with the saints on the Lord's day and God meets with
• 27:04
  us and he kills us
• 27:05
  and he makes us alive and he cleanses us and he feeds us and he
• 27:08
  nourishes us and he
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: changes us and he equips us.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:12
  discipleship shouldn't be this abstract thing where it's like
• 27:15
  going to your private
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: gym and maybe you have a few,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: like one or two people that you're working out with or you,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: You hire like your coach to help you get better.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, no, no.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the family meal.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 27:28
  it's a covenant renewing ceremony where you're coming to church
• 27:33
  to experience the
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: power of God in the proclaimed word.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 27:38
  and so that's just a part of this whole conversation that I
• 27:42
  would love to see more
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: people respond to,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: but it can feel uncomfortable.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: so you're saying like,
• 27:47
  I can't be a save without the church or I'm not going to be
• 27:49
  sanctified without the
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: church.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: yes and no,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: like obviously God works above and beyond his means,
• 27:59
  but this is the ordinary way he's promised to do what he's
• 28:02
  promised to do.
• 28:04
  And so a faithful response to the gospel is always going to
• 28:08
  include gathering with
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: the people of God to receive the gifts of God afresh.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: would you rather have a Christmas present mailed to you,
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: or would you rather gather with your family on Christmas morning
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And be able to fully participate in that ritual.
• 28:26
  If somebody overseas or in prison,
• 28:29
  there's no place like home for the holidays,
• 28:31
  right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's this sense of like,
• 28:32
  I wish I could be with you in person and experience this
• 28:36
  powerful thing that only
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: happens when we're together.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a reason,
• 28:41
  it just kind of comes to the surface by just examining the New
• 28:45
  Testament in the
• 28:46
  sense that there's a reason why all of these letters have been
• 28:49
  preserved because
• 28:50
  God very specifically and particularly cares about the
• 28:55
  congregation that assembles
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: to hear his words,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: which is why,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: whoever the writer was of Hebrews says,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's precisely because he
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is in that moment where these preached words,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: the words of law and gospel,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: come to the surface.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: They do what they were intended to do in us.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: as you highlighted,
• 29:16
  the law is that word that lets us know very clearly that there
• 29:21
  is no standard that
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: we can meet to live up to the righteousness of God.
• 29:25
  It is as if God is holding up to us a mirror by which we are
• 29:29
  therein exposed to all
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: of our weaknesses and faults and failures,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: all of the ways in which we have failed to live holy,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: to live up to what it says in Matthew 5,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: 48,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: to be holy as our Heavenly Father is holy.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are...
• 29:43
  exposed by that but it is in that exposure that we are also
• 29:48
  left vulnerable enough
• 29:49
  to where the word of gospel comes and consoles us and i think
• 29:53
  this is exactly what
• 29:55
  is true yes for the assembly true yes for the sermon and true
• 30:00
  yes for our own
• 30:01
  relationship with the lord through the word and the spirit
• 30:04
  which is just to say all
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: facets of the christian life corporate and private as you're highlighting
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: are informed but also necessarily instilled with these words,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: these words of law and gospel showing us our need,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: but then that need being fulfilled by a word that comes from the outside.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 30:25
  And when we think about the law specifically,
• 30:28
  it's a spiritual,
• 30:29
  holy,
• 30:30
  and good thing.
• 30:32
  But it's just the nature of fallen sinners who are blind and
• 30:35
  dead in sin that they
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: can take the law of God sort of apart from its spiritual context.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul, as a dead-in-his-sins Pharisee, his self-assessment...
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: He had the law of Moses,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: but his self-assessment was he was blameless,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: he was righteous,
• 30:57
  and he even saw his hatred of Christians as part of the
• 31:04
  righteousness of the law.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So he completely had a sense of being justified.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: He was confident in his own righteousness.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And yet when the true spiritual nature of the law was exposed to him,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: he realized that he actually was a murderer.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: So he had broken one of the main commandments.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus says the same thing.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: If any of you hates his brother, he's a murderer.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've broken God's law in your heart through your intention.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So in that civil use,
• 31:40
  we can rejoice that many people who have violated do not murder
• 31:45
  in their heart
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: don't carry out that horrific act on their neighbor,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: But nevertheless, they are no longer just in the sight of God.
• 31:55
  They have violated the commandment because they violated the
• 31:59
  heart,
• 31:59
  the spirit,
• 31:59
  and the intent.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: highlights the spiritual nature of the law.
• 32:07
  He's like,
• 32:08
  you have to have a righteousness that exceeds that of the
• 32:10
  scribes and Pharisees.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the question everybody should have been asking is like,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: How can anyone be saved?
• 32:18
  How could we possibly come up with a righteousness more
• 32:22
  exacting than what the
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Pharisees were doing?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they were tithing out of their spice rack.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: They were keeping track of steps on the Sabbath.
• 32:30
  They were trying to integrate their whole lives in conformity
• 32:32
  to God's law very
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: specifically and very practically.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, if not even they can be, who can be saved?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so Jesus is just,
• 32:44
  but he's graciously showing us our sin and our need so that we
• 32:49
  would come to see,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: we don't actually keep the law.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:53
  And so the law is a mirror that allows us to see the true state
• 32:59
  of our souls.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if we start to detach ourselves from the truth of the law,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: the spiritual holy goodness of the law—
• 33:09
  We can begin to convince ourselves externally that we're
• 33:12
  keeping the law.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why Jesus says you clean the outside of the cup.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can put on a good show.
• 33:18
  It leads to pride and hypocrisy because Paul thought he was
• 33:22
  keeping the law as a
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Pharisee while he was hating his brother and breaking the law.
• 33:30
  But he had so twisted around what he was doing that it felt
• 33:33
  like a righteous...
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: extension of the law's work in his life.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of being confronted with his murderous heart,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: he thought he was actually doing God's service by persecuting Christians.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the kind of dynamic that we see in human religion.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: We don't understand the law.
• 33:53
  And so we lower the standard of the law down to something that
• 33:57
  we can manage.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we even see our sin as righteous.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:03
  And so what we need in the church is the Holy Spirit to breathe
• 34:07
  on the word of law
• 34:10
  and bring that spiritual revelation to us so that we actually
• 34:13
  become convinced of
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: sin,
• 34:14
  righteousness and judgment where we no longer feel superior to
• 34:18
  other sinners
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: because of our external behavior,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: but actually get cut to the heart.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And before a holy God, we say, woe to me, I am undone.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have no righteousness of my own.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so Paul turned away from his own righteousness,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: considered it dumb,
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: confessed his former righteousness as sin,
• 34:39
  and said he wanted nothing but Jesus Christ to be found in him
• 34:42
  and have his perfect
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: righteousness,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 34:44
  Jesus is actually the one who has the righteousness greater
• 34:48
  than the Pharisees.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he shares that righteousness with us as a gift.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul stopped living.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: By works of the law and began living by a gift.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was the donation of another.
• 35:01
  And that was Luther's key insight in the Reformation is that
• 35:03
  the Christian life is
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: not lived as if it depended on our works and obedience,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: but it's lived by receiving a gift.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: The whole Christian life is a donation from Jesus.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we're recipients of charity.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're recipients of grace.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have undeservedly received the gift of righteousness.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that has a powerful impact on us,
• 35:24
  but it's somebody else's righteousness being gifted to us
• 35:28
  because we're in him.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a great point, and I want to unpack that.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get there, where—so we've referenced Romans.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can reference Galatians.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Those are easy,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: quote-unquote,
• 35:43
  easy places to take someone to understand the distinction
• 35:47
  between the law and the
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: gospel.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: They are very formative texts—
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: instilled and informed in Luther and others,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: you mentioned Cranmer,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: others,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: that were so influential in articulating this distinction.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: But where else in Scripture can we go?
• 36:03
  Of course,
• 36:04
  we've highlighted just briefly and just in passing places like
• 36:09
  the prophets.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think another really good place to do so is in that scene in
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: because I think it flows out of what you were just referencing,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: is that scene in the Gospels where Jesus confronts the rich young ruler.
• 36:22
  He is a young man who is considering the words of law as the
• 36:27
  way in which he lives.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: I can do this,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: and I can live,
• 36:31
  which automatically means a lowering of that standard in order
• 36:34
  for him to be able
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: to actually do it.
• 36:36
  and that's where jesus confronts him with this word of law as
• 36:41
  it rightly is
• 36:42
  understood well if you really want to go and live according to
• 36:45
  it you got to sell
• 36:46
  everything that you have and that's when the young man goes
• 36:49
  away crying and that's
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: the word of law confronting the sinner in its proper sort of application
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where else, though, can we go?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that, by the way, is where you get the cry of the apostles, right?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Where they're like, well, if that's the standard, who can be saved?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, where else should we be looking for this distinction?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we could just say the whole Bible.
• 37:11
  but where else are places that we can go to um well let me
• 37:16
  preface that question
• 37:17
  this way too um i think there's this tendency sometimes when we
• 37:21
  talk about law and
• 37:22
  gospel we have this very truncated understanding of scripture
• 37:25
  that says well the
• 37:27
  gospel is the new testament and the in the law is the old
• 37:30
  testament that's that old
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: testament god versus the new testament jesus
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: But how can we,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: number one,
• 37:36
  kind of demolish that understanding of Scripture by also saying
• 37:41
  the words and law
• 37:42
  of gospel are penetrating and permeating almost every passage
• 37:46
  of Scripture?
• 37:47
  So where,
• 37:47
  especially in the Old Testament maybe,
• 37:49
  can we see both of these at work?
• 37:50
  Yeah.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, like you said, it's all over the Bible, right?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at a place like Ephesians,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: which isn't the Old Testament yet,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: but you look at Ephesians,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to get like three chapters of lots of doctrine,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: articulating the mystery of Christ,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: the gospel.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second half of the book has a lot more of,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: so in light of the mercy of God,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: in light of the love of Jesus,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: like love each other.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do this.
• 38:19
  And so you get a lot of application for the Christian life
• 38:24
  flowing out of the
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: reality of who you've become now that you are in him.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you see that same kind of pattern of law and gospel.
• 38:34
  Galatians 3 hones in on that,
• 38:36
  probably the best place in the whole Bible to see law and
• 38:39
  gospel.
• 38:40
  Paul says the law is not of faith,
• 38:43
  rather the one who does them will live by them.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then the righteous live by faith.
• 38:47
  So he takes Habakkuk 2 and the Deuteronomy quote that's not
• 38:53
  clear in my mind right now.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so he quotes Deuteronomy and Habakkuk and says,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: within the Old Testament,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: here's a word of law and here's a word of gospel.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they inform how the righteous live before God.
• 39:05
  Do the righteous live by their works or do the righteous live
• 39:09
  by faith and the
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: promise,
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: by a gift?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:13
  And so Paul begins to see that the whole covenant era is
• 39:16
  defined by the righteous
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: live by faith.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Abraham is a sinner, but he trusts the promises of God.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when you go back to a place like Genesis 12,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: 15,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: 17,
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Abrahamic covenant,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: you're getting this gospel preached beforehand,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: as Paul calls it.
• 39:36
  So when you're reading the story of Abraham and how Abraham
• 39:40
  relates to God,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: you're getting a picture of how all the righteous relate to God.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: We who believe are justified along with Abraham, the man of faith.
• 39:51
  Then Moses,
• 39:53
  he gives us this word of law that is sweetly working with the
• 40:00
  promise.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's serving the promise, but it's not in itself giving us life.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes conditional, becomes a covenant of works.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes something that the people can't do.
• 40:11
  And so their failure to do the law should lead them to the
• 40:17
  sacrifices God's
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: appointed for their failure,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: should lead them back to the promise.
• 40:22
  So the law is meant to be a schoolmaster,
• 40:25
  a tutor,
• 40:25
  to lead them to Christ.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: They might be justified by faith.
• 40:29
  So when you get to a prophet like Micah,
• 40:31
  he has three covenant lawsuits in his book.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he gives law, and there's no hope in law.
• 40:39
  And because of the law,
• 40:40
  there's going to be exile,
• 40:42
  destruction,
• 40:43
  famine,
• 40:43
  death.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then he pivots from law,
• 40:46
  and he has a gospel word where the good shepherd's going to
• 40:51
  come and care for the
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: people.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: This better king is going to be born in Bethlehem,
• 40:56
  and he's going to give everybody deliverance from enemies and
• 40:59
  peace in their time
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 41:01
  Everyone's going to have this,
• 41:03
  their own vineyard and sit under their own fig tree.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be peaceful, right?
• 41:07
  And then word of law and it circles back around,
• 41:10
  but you're going to be forgiven.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: God's going to trample your iniquities under feet.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so you see like the law and the gospel functioning together.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so he gives the law.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a terrifying word.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It brings condemnation.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: It brings judgment, exile.
• 41:23
  But then God's next word to the people is a word of gospel
• 41:28
  rooted in the Abrahamic
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: covenant and pointing ahead to the Messiah.
• 41:32
  And the final word in Micah is that beautiful passage of the
• 41:37
  forgiveness of sins.
• 41:38
  So in spite of Micah having lots of terrifying law words,
• 41:43
  it ends on a word of gospel.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: He will trample your iniquities under your feet.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: He'll throw them in the depths of the sea.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: He will remember your sins no more.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so no matter how after the law is done,
• 41:57
  it's condemning work and you're convicted and you're brought
• 42:00
  low and you're killed.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: God gives this word of gospel to raise you up.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the people of Israel were never without hope.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't hope that they would do better.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: God's like, you're not going to do better.
• 42:11
  And because you're not going to do better,
• 42:12
  you're going to experience exile.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And because you're not going to do better,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to experience this judgment,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: this destruction.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm doing something to rectify the situation.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing something to deliver you.
• 42:28
  And so Isaiah has that whole section through chapter 40 to
• 42:31
  about 55 where he's
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: articulating a new exodus.
• 42:36
  Where this suffering servant is going to come and be a new
• 42:39
  Moses and deliver the
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: people from bondage,
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: not just Egypt,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: but the bondage of sin and death.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he's going to become a substitute on the cross, bearing the penalty.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: delivering them from death,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: and rising again,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: prolonging his days,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: sharing his spoil with his friends.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so you see this picture of Christ, right?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Christ is the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's the clear witness of the New Testament.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's how the apostles interpret Isaiah, is that Jesus is...
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: both the Lord high and lifted up in the temple in chapter six,
• 43:13
  but also the suffering servant who's dying for the sins of the
• 43:15
  people and rising
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: again to give them victory.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so all throughout the scriptures,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: we're seeing the law functions in this way to kill,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: to judge,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: to command,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: to,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the gospel is functioning this way,
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: to promise,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: to give life,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: to give hope,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: to restore.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the last word is the gospel word.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good, Brad.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it helps us.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: really understand the flow of the prophets,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: especially the minor prophets,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: to understand them as sort of law gospel treatises.
• 43:51
  That these were words that God gave to the prophets to declare
• 43:55
  to the people,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: not just as correctives,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: but as consoling words.
• 44:00
  And I think that's one of the things that is so often missed
• 44:03
  when reading or
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: studying or hearing the minor prophets preached.
• 44:08
  in sermons that somewhat do a disservice to them yes because
• 44:11
  there are hard harsh
• 44:13
  words found within those books but they are hard and harsh
• 44:16
  words that are meant to
• 44:17
  turn the people back to their lord who was waiting to embrace
• 44:21
  them i think one of
• 44:23
  the failures and this kind of can lead us into a discussion
• 44:26
  about you know some of
• 44:27
  the confusion of law and gospel and the ramifications of the
• 44:30
  consequences of that
• 44:32
  Which is just that when we understand these as just these sort
• 44:36
  of declarations that
• 44:37
  are fire and brimstone sort of sermons that are just
• 44:40
  browbeating people into the
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: dust,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: without also seeing that they are declaring the patience of the Lord,
• 44:47
  declaring the mercy and the compassion of God that is waiting
• 44:50
  for those who turn to
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: him.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: That is an essential function of the word,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 44:56
  but it's also an essential function of understanding that this
• 45:00
  is how God's word
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: works.
• 45:01
  It is meant to bring people sort of to face plant into the
• 45:05
  realization that they
• 45:06
  can't live up to the standard and they haven't and bring that
• 45:10
  into a very stark
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: awareness,
• 45:12
  but also that when they have no other hope that there is a God
• 45:16
  who meets them in
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: the midst of that.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: These minor prophets,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Micah,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Habakkuk,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Haggai,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Isaiah and Jeremiah,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: who aren't necessarily minor,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: but nonetheless,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: they have the same sort of momentum to them,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: the same sort of trajectory to them,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: that these are the words that kill and make alive.
• 45:33
  Yes,
• 45:33
  these are words that are bringing people to that moment of
• 45:37
  repentance and faith.
• 45:38
  and that they're not just words that are meant to drill in us
• 45:43
  some sort of
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: incentive to live better.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's seeing these words in a very confused lens.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure, brother.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that confusion is,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: as I quoted Bezos earlier,
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: like the principle,
• 46:00
  one of the principal sources of the confusion in the church
• 46:04
  that leads to all kinds
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: of errors.
• 46:05
  And it's pastoral,
• 46:09
  like when people are confused about the distinction between law
• 46:12
  and gospel.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: it leads to a lack of assurance.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: It can hamstring their sanctification,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: leave them unable to live a life of joyful obedience to God.
• 46:24
  And so the distinguishing of the law and the gospel becomes
• 46:28
  like the most practical
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine precisely because of its pastoral implications.
• 46:34
  But one of the main ways that people confuse the law and the
• 46:38
  gospel is the Galatian heresy.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: So the Galatian heresy is people had a right doctrine of Christ.
• 46:46
  They affirm that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ promised in
• 46:49
  the Old Testament.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: He was God and man,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: son of David,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: according to the flesh and of God declared at the resurrection and,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: But when they thought about what it means to be a Christian,
• 47:01
  they basically created a Christianity where you start off by
• 47:06
  receiving the free
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: gift by faith alone and Christ alone.
• 47:10
  But then to go on to maturity and sort of remain in the
• 47:14
  covenant community,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: you had to embrace the laws of Moses.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: You had to essentially become Jewish.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: You had to keep the law, though.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: That was the key thing.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: You had to be circumcised and keep the law.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you couldn't be saved without that.
• 47:28
  And so as they were thinking about who Jesus is and looking at
• 47:34
  the reading the Old
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Testament,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: they started to go,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: there's all these warnings to people who break the law.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's scary.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you're not circumcised, you're an outsider.
• 47:45
  And so because they didn't understand the apostles' doctrine
• 47:50
  well enough and
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: because of the temptation and the hard wiring in each of us for law—
• 47:55
  They created a system where you begin by the spirit,
• 47:59
  but you go on by the flesh.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: You start by faith and you go on by works.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's partly Jesus and partly me for assurance, for justification.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: So to maintain your status as a Christian, to prove justice.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: that you really are a Christian,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: to have assurance that you're actually saved,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: to have peace with God.
• 48:19
  They created a system where you couldn't be a Christian unless
• 48:24
  you did all this other stuff.
• 48:27
  So they were coming into church and saying,
• 48:28
  hey,
• 48:29
  it's great that you believed in Jesus.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do that.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's good, right, and true.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: But that's only step one.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to forget about steps two through ten.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how you move on to varsity Christianity.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how you make sure that you don't fall away.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Here's how you make sure that you're really living for the Lord.
• 48:49
  And they leave the gospel in the background and they start to
• 48:52
  create a Christian
• 48:53
  life where you're reverting back to works of the law for final
• 48:56
  justification.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: for peace with God, for full assurance.
• 49:01
  And it's undermining the confidence that Christians can have in
• 49:06
  Christ alone.
• 49:08
  And Paul adamantly opposes that heresy and calls it a different
• 49:13
  gospel that's no gospel at all.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 49:15
  Even though it was proclaiming Jesus Christ as the
• 49:18
  God-man-redeemer who had been
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: raised from the dead.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:21
  But because it was blending long gospel in its application to
• 49:25
  the Christian,
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says it's a different gospel.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: A different gospel,
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: and we could say definitely a false gospel,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: and one that gives sinners a false sense of hope,
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: but also a false and very thin sense of security.
• 49:39
  I think the words that you mentioned that are so pertinent to
• 49:43
  me that I think,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: but are also resonant for the church,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: is just the sense of assurance and confidence that comes from
• 49:50
  from understanding that all of my hope and basis for a right
• 49:55
  standing with God has
• 49:57
  nothing to do with me it is completely outside of me it's this
• 50:01
  word from the
• 50:01
  outside the gospel that brings and announces to me this
• 50:06
  assurance that is in Jesus
• 50:08
  and I think and again to reference what we've referenced before
• 50:11
  which is good old
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: father Abraham who had many sons this is how he
• 50:18
  also also lived and believed and it was counted unto him as
• 50:22
  righteousness it's not
• 50:23
  by accident that paul and others are using abraham as this
• 50:28
  paradigm of of faith and
• 50:31
  justification because this is how it's always worked and i
• 50:34
  think this is something
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: that helps us understand
• 50:37
  all of scripture canonically is to understand that it's not
• 50:40
  telling us that they
• 50:41
  were saved this way and we are saved that way no long gospel
• 50:43
  has always worked this
• 50:44
  way to bring the bring the sinner to the point of of
• 50:49
  desperation and then to
• 50:50
  deliver them by this word of promise that word of promise
• 50:54
  looked differently
• 50:55
  Or it sounded differently,
• 50:56
  perhaps,
• 50:58
  in the time of Abraham compared to the Apostle Paul.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it's the same word of promise.
• 51:02
  It's a word of promise that comes from God outside of us,
• 51:05
  to us,
• 51:06
  to the sinner.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this has always been the case.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is our right standing and confidence.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is why...
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: God always freights his promise with that word of assurance,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: do not be afraid,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: for I am with you.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is this constant refrain that he is the one who is with us,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: standing for us,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: standing on our behalf.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And this just,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: fills and instills the church with such tremendous joy and assurance and
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: confidence.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Holiness,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: we could rightly say,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: is not this carrot dangling at the end of the stick of our performance.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not this thing that's just held out,
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: and if we do enough stuff,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: then that's when we are going to get that assurance,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: find that assurance.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: That goes back to your reference to the Galatian heresy,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: which is what essentially they were doing.
• 51:52
  Hey,
• 51:52
  yeah,
• 51:53
  God got you in by Christ,
• 51:56
  but now here's your motivation to do this next thing.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, holiness is a gift.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's that word of promise.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's the gift that comes to us in Christ,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: which I think that's where all of this,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: we could call it faithful Christian living,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: where does it come from?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from Christians who are assured of the right standing with God,
• 52:17
  not those who are sort of browbeaten into that or sort of
• 52:22
  motivated rightly enough
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: to live that way.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: It comes out of assurance.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 52:27
  and if you take away somebody's confidence in Christ and kind
• 52:32
  of steal their
• 52:32
  identity as a Christian and say you can have no confidence in
• 52:36
  Christ until you've
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: lived out the life of a Christian,
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: then you're trying to live the Christian life to know who you are,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: to prove who you are,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: to assure yourself of who you are.
• 52:49
  What Paul gives you that,
• 52:51
  he says,
• 52:51
  like,
• 52:52
  you were buried with him in baptism.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: You were raised with him by the power of God.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Your life is hidden with Christ in God.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: So he gives you these truth statements about who you are.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you not know the Holy Spirit is in you and you are the temple of God?
• 53:08
  And so as one who is in Christ and has been united to him and
• 53:12
  been filled with the
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Spirit and has been given these great promises,
• 53:16
  these great and precious promises that are the power of God and
• 53:19
  the means through
• 53:20
  which we are being delivered from this present evil age and
• 53:24
  being empowered to live
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: a life that's pleasing to the Lord.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so the motivation is always rooted back into rest in Christ.
• 53:34
  So you have assurance of your salvation because it's outside of
• 53:39
  you and it's apart from you.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that assurance then is the engine of...
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Holiness.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: John says,
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: we know that we are God's children now,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: even though what we will be has not yet appeared.
• 53:53
  We know that when we see him,
• 53:54
  we will be like him for we will see him as he is.
• 53:56
  And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies themselves,
• 54:01
  even as he is pure.
• 54:03
  So it's a description of when people really get a hold of this
• 54:09
  gospel word,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: it has a deep and profound impact on their sense of identity,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: on their person,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: on their motivations.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the fruit of that is transformation.
• 54:25
  But the transformation is a result of coming into that full
• 54:28
  assurance of faith.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know my Redeemer lives and that he has saved me,
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: not because of what I've done or what I'm doing,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: but because of who he is and what he did for me.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we don't apprehend Christ.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:42
  Through our obedience,
• 54:44
  we apprehend Christ through the empty open hand of faith.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: We simply receive him and rest on him.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we live out of that.
• 54:52
  So the whole Christian life is I live by faith and the one who
• 54:55
  loved me and gave himself for me.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: If righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for no purpose.
• 55:02
  So we don't add the law back in and put believers back under
• 55:06
  the law for the
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: covenant of sanctification as a covenant of works.
• 55:10
  People are not trying to earn their final salvation through
• 55:13
  spirit-wrought obedience.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're never justified by what's done in us or done by us.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 55:19
  We're justified by what Christ did for us and outside of us and
• 55:22
  in history in his
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: death,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: burial,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: and resurrection.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that really changes the way we live as Christians.
• 55:30
  It changes the way we approach this whole thing called living
• 55:33
  by faith at all.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is,
• 55:35
  I think what is so helpful about the distinction between law
• 55:39
  and gospel is that it
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: essentially and necessarily dismantles all the other isms,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: pietism,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: legalism.
• 55:46
  cynicism the way when we approach the christian life through
• 55:49
  all these other means
• 55:50
  as if it's this if i do this then i will get that again this
• 55:54
  sort of carrot reward
• 55:55
  system if i can just put forth enough effort in this discipline
• 55:59
  or if i'm busying
• 56:01
  myself to make sure that other people are making christ their
• 56:05
  lord or however you
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: want to
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: finagle these words in other ways.
• 56:10
  The words of long gospel dismantle that because they tell us
• 56:13
  that's not going to work.
• 56:14
  That whole other scheme or system by which you think that you
• 56:18
  can bring about
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: confidence and assurance,
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: it is a fool's errand.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to end in ash and disintegration.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is not going to lead to life.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's only one means by which,
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: as we've noted before,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: we find the power of God,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: the dynamic word of God is that word of gospel,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: which that's what,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: as we've been so often sort of emphasizing,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: that's what makes alive.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And what a freeing way in which to live the Christian life.
• 56:48
  The true freedom to serve others,
• 56:51
  to serve others for the sake of glorifying God.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Where does that come from?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 56:56
  it doesn't come from sort of poking people with a cattle prod
• 57:00
  as if that's what's
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: going to motivate them to live that way.
• 57:03
  It comes out of this,
• 57:05
  as you've said,
• 57:05
  a full assurance of faith that comes from the gospel.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amen.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so in preaching, we want to preach law and gospel.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just law.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just gospel.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 57:17
  We want to distinguish between them because they have different
• 57:20
  purposes God gave
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: them for different reasons.
• 57:23
  And so you might have heard the phrase like afflict the
• 57:26
  comfortable and comfort the afflicted.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: The law is there to afflict the comfortable.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: When you feel like you're good enough,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: well enough,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: have enough righteousness,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: like I'm pretty good at the Christian life,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you're the rich young ruler being like, yeah, I've done that.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then the law comes to afflict you and be like, but you haven't.
• 57:48
  But when you're afflicted and you're downcast and you realize
• 57:52
  that you are
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: spiritually bankrupt,
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: spiritually impoverished—
• 57:57
  Then the gospel comes to comforting where to say,
• 57:59
  but Jesus has done it for you.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at like the Laodicean church,
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: that's been,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: that interpretation has been completely wonka doodled through pietism.
• 58:10
  But if you actually go and look at it,
• 58:12
  it's,
• 58:12
  it's actually the pietist Jesus is talking to.
• 58:15
  You think that you're strong,
• 58:17
  that you're good,
• 58:19
  you have need of nothing,
• 58:21
  you're prosperous.
• 58:21
  Like,
• 58:22
  they've instrumentalized their obedience and they're receiving
• 58:25
  good things,
• 58:26
  right?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, they're God's varsity team.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're kicking butt at the Christian life.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus is like,
• 58:35
  you need to get some eye salve from me and you need to see that
• 58:38
  you're poor,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: wretched,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: pitiable,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: blind,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: and naked,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: But once you see that,
• 58:42
  once the comfortable have been afflicted and they see the true
• 58:45
  spiritual poverty,
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not cursed are the poor in spirit.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's blessed are the poor in spirit.
• 58:50
  Once they recognize their need,
• 58:53
  Jesus says,
• 58:54
  then come to me and I've got what you actually need.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you think your clothes are great.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're not.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I have the clothes you need.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like you think your vision is perfect.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I have the glasses you need.
• 59:04
  Like he's just calling them to truth and honesty,
• 59:09
  but ultimately to himself.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the end of the law for righteousness is Jesus Christ.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if the law has done its work, then you're ready for the gospel.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're ready to be comforted.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: to hear the assuring word.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the great joy of being somebody who gets to preach.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: with this paradigm is you can thunder God's law,
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: but you never have to crush the wounded contrary to the nature of God.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can oppose the proud and then give grace to the humble.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you get to minister good news to the poor.
• 59:47
  You get to bring the sweetness of Christ undiluted to the
• 59:52
  conscience of the
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: downcast and minister just...
• 59:57
  full 200 proof grace and hope and mercy and love and be like,
• 1:00:02
  you have everything you need.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get to be,
• 1:00:04
  you become a vehicle of that assuring word of promise and you
• 1:00:08
  see the life,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel takes root and grows among them and bears fruit.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you get to see people enlivened by the gospel.
• 1:00:18
  And that's the joy of ministry is assuring Christians that
• 1:00:22
  Jesus Christ is enough,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: that he's theirs,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: that he's done everything they need,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: that he's given them everything they need.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: and they can have full, perfect confidence in Him.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:00:34
  I think about these words,
• 1:00:36
  distinguishing these words,
• 1:00:37
  especially as a preacher.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I'm called to especially articulate this truth.
• 1:00:44
  And I think that the more I've studied and found this
• 1:00:49
  distinction to be so
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: incredibly true and life-giving—
• 1:00:54
  I found it to be the only thing that I want to declare,
• 1:00:57
  the only thing that I can declare.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it also informs and impacts and changes the way,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: like every facet of a sermon,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: from the study to the praying to the prep to the writing.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: to the delivery of it,
• 1:01:11
  all of it is changed by this wonderful distinction that says
• 1:01:15
  that there is a,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: there is this standard that everyone has failed to meet,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: but also there's this other one,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: this one who has come and met that standard for you.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: What a great relieving word.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:01:28
  we've talked about the gospel as relief in different venues and
• 1:01:32
  different places,
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: and I think what a great relief to people who are desperate,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: to people who are tired and worn out,
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: to people who are exhausted.
• 1:01:40
  on striving we give this word of relief and i think thinking
• 1:01:45
  about it not just as a
• 1:01:47
  as sort of like a homiletician as a preacher but thinking about
• 1:01:51
  it as a christian
• 1:01:52
  again there is a again no higher art because there is no more
• 1:01:58
  freeing position to
• 1:01:59
  be than to be made alive by these words to be killed yes but to
• 1:02:03
  be made alive
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as you and I,
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: others,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: part of the Reclamation Project and other places,
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: Theocast doing a great job there,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: the urgency,
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: for the clarity on this is because it is so quickly and often confused.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: As we've said, the Galatian heresy is alive and well.
• 1:02:24
  It's not some old antiquated thing that we don't have to worry
• 1:02:28
  about anymore.
• 1:02:29
  It's right here,
• 1:02:29
  right now,
• 1:02:30
  often pervading the way in which we understand the Christian
• 1:02:34
  life.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: It affects the way the church views its mission,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: the way the church views its purpose,
• 1:02:40
  and the way it views how it's called to articulate and declare
• 1:02:46
  this message.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: All of that can get so demolished by this confusion, which again says...
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Clarifying these words is absolutely vital, absolutely essential.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when they're not clear,
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: then your conscience gets destroyed and your assurance gets destroyed.
• 1:03:07
  And you have people who have really been brought near by the
• 1:03:12
  blood of Jesus,
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: united to his son,
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: and actually are.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Recipients of the eternal life that God has promised.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: They are people who are in Christ and will be seated,
• 1:03:22
  are seated with him in the heavenly places now and will be
• 1:03:24
  glorified with him in
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: the age to come.
• 1:03:27
  And they are living like orphans and beggars with no confidence
• 1:03:32
  in the love of God
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: because the law and the gospel have been confused,
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: blended together.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: And Martin Luther said,
• 1:03:39
  whoever knows well this art of dividing the law from the gospel
• 1:03:42
  should be given a
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: place at the front of the room and be called a doctor of holy scripture.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you – it's not like we just come to it immediately.
• 1:03:52
  It's something we have to constantly be like refreshing in,
• 1:03:55
  rehearsed in because –
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: We need the gospel every day because we forget it every day.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: You've become so nearsighted.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're blind.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: You've forgotten your cleansing from your former sin.
• 1:04:05
  Like we forget the gospel and it,
• 1:04:08
  you know,
• 1:04:09
  the gospel takes root,
• 1:04:11
  grows and bears fruit.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: In a heart of a sinner.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when the gospel is forgotten, right, then it's not being planted.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not being watered.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not being cultivated.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we constantly need the word of the gospel to renew us,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: to strengthen our faith,
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: to help us go on from glory to glory.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we constantly need to be assured.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: everything in our lives is battering against our assurance,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: our performance,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: our desires,
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: our affections,
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: the accuser.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: from the world,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: the flesh and the devil,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: everything is conspiring to like,
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: there is no hope for you and God.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then the word of the gospel is like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:04:55
  Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners,
• 1:04:59
  of whom I am the foremost.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: He died for the ungodly.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: Those who work, it's a wage, not a gift.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: But those who don't work,
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: but believe in him who justifies the ungodly,
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: their faith is credited as righteousness.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Move into that.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we just need that clarity.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know you asked me last time that never got published about resources.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: I would always want to point people back to Martin Luther and the...
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: The commentary on Galatians.
• 1:05:34
  His commentary on Galatians is such a watershed moment in the
• 1:05:38
  history of the church.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a watershed moment in so many people's lives.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: John Bunyan,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: the great Baptist theologian and writer,
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: said that outside of the Bible,
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: he knew of no book.
• 1:05:51
  That was so good at comforting distressed consciences is
• 1:05:54
  Luther's commentary on Galatians.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that to be the case.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:05:58
  reading Luther on Galatians transformed my life because I
• 1:06:04
  finally came to the
• 1:06:05
  clarity of the Reformation out of some of the confusion that
• 1:06:09
  just abounds in our
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: evangelical culture.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so get that book.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: John Cahoon,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: the great Scottish theologian of the,
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say early 1800s,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: maybe late 1700s.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: He, he has a book called a treatise on long gospel.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent book.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: I know Sola Media has a law and gospel book.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think Pat or Mike Abendroth have a law and gospel primer out.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just recently got a new book called Learning God's Two Words.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: It just came out.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very small book.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a brief catechism on the law and the gospel.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: I highly recommend people pick it up.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: It can help you teach your kids.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's a section just full of quotes for
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: From church history and in the introduction,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: there's just lots of good kind of law gospel quotes,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: but the whole catechism is short,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: but it also is focused on the book of Romans.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: the foundational conviction that I have,
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: that I share with the Reformers,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: is that this is in the Bible.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like Luther's properly expositing Galatians, right?
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: Calvin expositing Romans.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: When Cranmer's organizing the prayer book,
• 1:07:23
  he's organizing scripture and using what's really in the Bible
• 1:07:27
  to shape the way
• 1:07:28
  that we're going to confess our sin and be absolved and pray
• 1:07:32
  and commune and...
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's all there from the scripture.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the law of gospel distinction emerges from the pages of the Bible.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's the apostles' doctrine.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's there in Paul's preaching in Acts 13.
• 1:07:47
  It's clearly there in the book of Romans,
• 1:07:48
  clearly there in Galatians,
• 1:07:50
  but it's there always.
• 1:07:51
  It's there across all the prophets,
• 1:07:53
  as we talked about with Micah,
• 1:07:55
  et cetera.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: But learning God's two words is so incredibly important.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: There was a book edited by...
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: John Linebaugh.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's called God's Two Words.
• 1:08:08
  But he has a bunch of Reformed and Lutheran theologians from
• 1:08:11
  like high academic
• 1:08:12
  levels writing on the law and the gospel from within the
• 1:08:17
  Reformed and Lutheran
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: tradition.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a spectacular book, a little bit higher end.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of resources out there.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'd recommend all of those.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: But the big thing is like once you start to see it, you can't unsee it.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then you begin to realize like I can't live without this distinction.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the preachers I used to like to listen to –
• 1:08:43
  Like I would die if I had to go back into that because my hope
• 1:08:48
  in myself has been
• 1:08:49
  crushed by the law to the point where like I will only hear
• 1:08:54
  their law gospel
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: confusion as hopelessness for me.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: But Jesus Christ has been given for me.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day,
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: like Luther said,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: the gospels and the pronouns,
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_01: like the for me is what you most need to like know.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: And getting clarity on the law and the gospel keeps Christ for you.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: Amen, Brad.
• 1:09:19
  Thank you so much for hopping on and trying to give us a second
• 1:09:24
  edition to our lost edition.
• 1:09:26
  That'll be forever the lost episode of the Ministry of Minded
• 1:09:29
  podcast,
• 1:09:30
  but that's all right.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so good to see you,
• 1:09:33
  but also chat with you and hear about the necessity of law
• 1:09:37
  gospel distinction and
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: clarity.
• 1:09:40
  Just plug again where people might be able to find you and
• 1:09:42
  where some of the stuff
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: that you're working on with the reclamation can be found.
• 1:09:47
  Yeah,
• 1:09:47
  so the Reclamation can be found across platforms,
• 1:09:51
  Spotify,
• 1:09:52
  Apple Podcasts,
• 1:09:54
  etc.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: We have the website, thereclamation.info.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can listen to the podcast there.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can get the free e-book download.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can find a link to the Printify store, etc.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: We also have the Reclamation Facebook group.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's still a fairly small group,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_01: but we have amazing guys in there like yourself,
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremiah Hurt,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Timothy Baird,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Jeffrey Perry,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: and others I'm forgetting right now.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I apologize.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: We even have Philip Carey.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the great Philip Carey,
• 1:10:44
  author of books like Good News for Anxious Christians and The
• 1:10:47
  Nicene Creed,
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: an introduction.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: He said that's his favorite book,
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: the book he's most proud of,
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: because The Nicene Creed is the gospel.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's Christ for you.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's for us and for our salvation.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of great engagement.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the Reclamation guys have connections with Theocast.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we share a lot of our stuff into the Theocast Facebook group.
• 1:11:11
  But yeah,
• 1:11:12
  definitely get on the internet and you can find some great
• 1:11:17
  resources.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: There is good news to be found on the internet.
• 1:11:20
  And one of those places where you can find it is the
• 1:11:23
  Reclamation Facebook group,
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: but also all the other projects they're working on.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: So check out the notes for that.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure to check out the resources.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find those in the notes for this show.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks so much, Brad.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you too, man.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:11:37
  I hope you've been blessed by this episode of the Ministry
• 1:11:40
  Minded Podcast.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_00: be sure,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: go and subscribe to it over on Apple,
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: over on Spotify,
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: or right here on Substack.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate all of your support, your encouragement.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've received several notes of
• 1:11:53
  listeners who've told me that they are just really enjoying
• 1:11:57
  these episodes as I've
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_00: been putting them together,
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: finding joy and encouragement by them.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the goal.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is the intent.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for that.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Keep sending those notes.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Those mean a lot to me.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for commenting and listening and subscribing.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I will see you on the next episode.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.