Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 248. Keeping Up with Rapid Regulatory Changes in Refrigeration with Johan Gouws of Tecumseh

Transcript

Episode 248. Keeping Up with Rapid Regulatory Changes in Refrigeration with Johan Gouws of Tecumseh · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: Super excited. You're here today. Again, I'm hanging out with my good friend, Yohan House, and he is the director of sales for North America for Tecumseh. , me and Yohan met years and years ago, going to events, all the events that he goes to. I'm usually there as well.
• 0:01
  And we catch up each time we're there. Love hearing the different stories that he sees because the things that he works on today and refrigeration is a little bit different than what I'm working on, on commercial racks and stuff. He's working on a lot of commercial systems, smaller systems. And I love to dive into what he has been seeing Around the world.
• 0:02
  Cause he's traveling the world, learning about all these different technologies, talking to all these different customers and building different technologies with inside his organization from the information he gets. So I'm super excited to dive into this conversation. Yon, how are you doing?
• 0:03
  Johan: Hey, Trevor, good morning.
• 0:04
  Thank you very much for having me and, and always a pleasure catching up with you. As you mentioned, you know, we. We spend a lot of time catching up at trade shows. And this is a good opportunity for us to sit down and have a chat about what's going on in the industry.
• 0:05
  So look forward to, to spending the next hour or so with you.
• 0:06
  Trevor: Yeah, no, no, it's real fun because we got a lot of, this is the fall coming up right now. This is where trade shows just start and refrigeration. They, they go from now all the way to like may, you know, here in North America and Europe.
• 0:07
  So I definitely will be catching up with you, but, but what's been going on. In your world, because we know regulations is the big hot topic for contractors, for end users, as well as for manufacturers. And this is something that I'd love to dive in with you because we worked at Emerson together years ago.
• 0:08
  And now we're, we're in different roles now, but the changes still affect us. You know what I mean? So what have you been seeing out there for customers and like for contractors on these regulation changes that are happening right away? ,
• 0:09
  Johan: I think if I could sum it up in one word, it's confusing, right?
• 0:10
  It's been a, it's been a, it's been a challenging landscape. You know, and to come see as a manufacturer of compressors for like commercial systems. You know, we're at the forefront of these regulations working with a lot of our OEM customers in terms of navigating the changes, right? So, yeah. On the forefront side, in terms of working with OEM customers you know, we've been spending just a huge amount of time talking about applications, talking about, you know, system optimization, talking about how these new regulations impact the different applications within the products that our customers manufacture today, because it's not a cookie cutter approach where there's a single line regulation that impacts all of the refrigeration space, right?
• 0:11
  You've got food service equipment, you know, you've got ice machines, you've got commercial walk in boxes, walk in freezers, you've got bigger rack systems, supermarket, retail systems. So you know, not even talking about the air conditioning landscape as well. So overall, if you look at it end to end, right, there's a lot of variables and moving pieces within the regulation.
• 0:12
  So You know, we've been spending just a huge amount of our engineering time and resources working with OEMs to navigate, you know, these changes and, and guide them through what is coming in 25 beyond that as well, right? Part of the, the, the challenge we've seen and you know, we, we touched on this in an earlier discussion was just the speed at which the regulations are coming, right?
• 0:13
  So from a, from an OEM standpoint standpoint from a contractor standpoint from an industry standpoint, the feedback that I get a lot of is just the speed at which the regulations are coming right? The market is not really getting a getting time to settle down. And, you know, if we go back to the days of 22 to 4 10 phase out, you know, there was a there was a long tail to that you know, 10 years in the process of that regulation being phased in.
• 0:14
  You know, we're now going into this world of A2Ls, natural refrigerants, and the speed at which we're seeing these regulations hit the market is just accelerating, right? And it makes for a very challenging environment, not only from a manufacturer's standpoint, where we need to develop products, we need to get products certified, tested, approved into applications with OEMs, which is in itself a multi year process.
• 0:15
  But, you know, when we start talking about contractors, installers servicing this equipment, right, especially as we move into this realm of the flammable refrigerants, right, the A3s, the A2Ls you know, there's a lot of training, education that needs to be done to get the market up to speed in terms of just these new regulations.
• 0:16
  And even, even, even today, right, we, we continue Push on education, push on training with a lot of our contractors, installers, with our distribution customers as well, to support them through these changes. And there's still, even today, you know, we're on the cusp of 2025. We're on the, on the verge of these new regulations coming into effect.
• 0:17
  And there's still contractors, installers out there who are uncertain about what's going on, right? With A3s, with A2Ls, So, you know, we'll continue to drive education training, which is absolutely core to our business. And, you know, ultimately continue to work with our our OEM customers as well, as they develop new applications, optimize systems.
• 0:18
  So, you know, a lot going on in short.
• 0:19
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. So I remember really back in 2014, when I came from a contractor, then I started working for a manufacturer. I didn't really. Know about regulations. You know, I heard about Montreal Polk protocol, you know, CFC agency, but I didn't really understand because it was a long time ago and there was a big time period between like the Montreal protocol and really in North America.
• 0:20
  And when we get up to the Kigali amendment, and so I started learning about it then, but it felt like there was a bit more time for manufacturers because you guys have to spend millions of dollars with your customers testing this stuff. And it seems like now, like you said, there's, there's this fast shift on, on this change, like the 2025, 2026, 2027, let's focus on the contractors and help them a little bit right now for the technicians that are listening.
• 0:21
  What are some of these regulations that are coming out that are coming out really quickly that they, they need to understand so they can communicate to their customers so they can talk confidently and let their end users or retailers understand the changes that are starting to happen.
• 0:22
  Johan: Absolutely.
• 0:23
  So if we look at, at specifically commercial refrigeration, which is where Tecumseh focuses on today, you know, we've got this, this low GWP regulation coming out for food service equipment, right? So there's, there's really two standards or two regulations which have been written, right? The one that relates to, to the air conditioning side, which I won't really spend too much time touching on, but on the commercial refrigeration side, it's really about that 300 GWP limit, right?
• 0:24
  And what that means is that all new food service equipment from one January 25 has gotta be manufactured with a GWP of less than 300, or using a refrigerant with a GWP of less than 300, which is getting into this realm of, of the A two Ls. You know, whether it's 454C or 455A, or going to a propane natural solution, right?
• 0:25
  Now, propane refrigerant is inherently different because it's flammable, it's classified as an A3. So, you know, and propane has been around since, you know, 2015, 2016 in the market as well. So, What I want to do is quickly touch on propane, right? So what we're seeing from the contractor market as well is there's a reluctance to want to service or replace propane compressors in the field, right?
• 0:26
  Again, it's about this flammability, right? So we've spoken to a lot of our customers and they said, you know, we're selling a ton of propane refrigerant. But we're not selling any service replacement compressors. And and the concern there is that there's this disconnect between the servicing that's going on and the number of compressors that are in the field that are not being replaced today or being replaced with legacy 134 A systems, right?
• 0:27
  So propane, you know, Again, there's certain requirements, installation safety guidelines, best practices that contractors need to use around servicing propane equipment, right? And we can provide training and service around that, Propane system touching on on a two L's, right? So as we move into this realm of of the eight well, the partially flammable refrigerants, right?
• 0:28
  So the one consideration is is one all the legacy tools equipment, which contractors have on their trucks today. Need to be a two L compatible. I need to buy new systems, right? So that's the number one consideration. And there's been a big push as well from the equipment manufacturers in the industry, the service equipment guys, you know, the gauges, scales, et cetera, to really push and support contractors on the A to L side.
• 0:29
  But on the A to L side, You know, that's coming down the pipeline. Those are the low GWP refrigerants that have to be sub 300 GWP effective from January of 2025 with the OEM equipment. So what does this mean from a contractor? It means that, you know, outside of now just servicing or having the ability to service your legacy HFC, HFO equipment, you now need to be able to, to service A2L systems as well.
• 0:30
  Again, the challenge with A2Ls is that partially flammable sites, so there's certain regulations safety guidelines that need to be adhered to, best practices, to support services. The, the service of A two L systems. So, you know, a two L's, a, a again 4 54 C, 4 55 A, you know, those are the two sub one 50 GWP refrigerants that are gonna be primarily used in the market, but there's also others like 4 52 A, which is actually.
• 0:31
  It's higher than, than 300 GWP. It's classified as higher than 300 GWP, but most manufacturers will look at solutions that are sub one 50 to meet the new regulations effective January of 25.
• 0:32
  Trevor: Yeah. And this is, these are affecting, this is the U S right now, right in Canada. Now I'm here in Canada.
• 0:33
  These regulations aren't for Canada yet, but we know the things that happen in the U S usually a move up the Canada because our regulations have haven't changed. change. I've been trying to figure, find out like when somebody is going to make a decision up here, but we know that across the U S right now, there's a lot of changes happening.
• 0:34
  I want to dive into a little bit. I have some technicians who say, well, Trevor, I've been servicing propane for 12 years now. I didn't have any of this new equipment that they're talking about. New spark spark proof vac pumps or tools. You want to, you know, Touch on why that's important to you as a manufacturer that the technicians use these newer type of tools or start to focus on getting the newer tools because you can still use them on the old systems as well.
• 0:35
  Why is that important? Because I get this all the time, Trevor, while I've been doing it all the time, I never had any of these new tools. And now they're telling me I need to get these new tools.
• 0:36
  Johan: Yeah. I mean, that's a good point, Trevor. And again, it comes down to just risk mitigation, right? You know, a lot of this equipment, which is propane food service equipment, it gets serviced in a bar, a restaurant, you know, potentially a school system as well, you know, where you've got a system in a school cafeteria.
• 0:37
  So, you know, what you don't want to create is, is a situation where there's. a discharge of propane under high pressure and temperature, and that ultimately ignites, and then you have a fire related incident. So, you know, that's why as an OEM, you know, we absolutely recommend To all of our contractors and installers when working on a propane system that you use, you know, you have the right spark proof tools and equipment, you know, you make sure that there's adequate ventilation in the area.
• 0:38
  You know, obviously, all of your standard electrical lockouts, lockout, tagout processes are followed you know, and you make sure that you've got, you know, fire extinguishers or some kind of fire mitigation protocol in place when servicing it and more so, you know, when it comes to, you know, critical sites, like I mentioned, school cafeterias, right?
• 0:39
  You don't want to create an issue you know, because you're using a non approved R290 or propane piece of equipment. So that's why we recommend that you've got to go spark proof on when working with any flammable refrigerant. Also, you know, when replacing service parts you know, we always recommend use the OEM approved part only.
• 0:40
  Don't use generic no name brand off the shelf replacement parts because one, you don't know whether that's qualified or rated as a spark proof or not. And again, you know, you, you want to make sure that you are servicing your equipment with the correct OEM parts and accessories.
• 0:41
  Trevor: And we know, I like, I know that's going to come like these replacement parts will come, but at this point right now, we don't, they don't have replacement parts that I know of on the market for that, like the OEM replacement.
• 0:42
  So just make sure you do that. One of the big things too, is that like mitigating the risk. I think if you're in a highly an area, if you're a technician out there and there's a lot of people around, maybe that's not the time to do the job. You know what I mean? I know this, but you got to think about this, make that decision.
• 0:43
  Because if they got a bunch of friars going, they're cooking at the same time, there's kids around, this is something you got to think about, right? If you can move, cause I know my friend, good friend, Chris Stevens from HVAC videos, he does lots of videos on propane, but he pulls the equipment outside.
• 0:44
  You know what I mean? So he rolls it out and he takes it out, but not all, you can't always do that. You know what I mean? So as a technician, you got to think a little bit differently when you're working on this equipment and the biggest thing is being safe. So,
• 0:45
  Johan: yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that's what you say there is a hundred percent, right.
• 0:46
  You know, as, as we move from this realm of, you know, non flammable refrigerants where, you know, a discharge of, of high pressure, high temperature refrigerant has a certain level of risk to it, right. And, and, you know, At the baseline, contractors should always be following the best practices, you know, best safety protocols that they can to not only protect themselves, but the environment that they're operating in.
• 0:47
  But you know, as we, as we move into this, this realm of, of flammable refrigerants, right, there are certain additional risk mitigating factors that absolutely have to be considered, right? And, you know, it's not a question of, hey, it's you know, we, we want to do a quick service. We want to get in and get out because of the risk associated with, with the flammability around it.
• 0:48
  Right. And it's not just around the propane side, you know, if we look at CO2, right, high pressure, right. So, you know, there's certain, you know safety protocols that need to be taken around, you know, when servicing a CO2 rack system. So the whole industry is, is changing significantly to become a lot more focused around safety and what we do as as stewards of the industry to make sure that we're training and supporting and educating you know, contractors on all these changes that are coming down the pipeline.
• 0:49
  Trevor: And I think that's important because one thing that i've noticed even over the last few years and more technicians and contractors They're thinking a little bit more before they're diving into something and I think that's really helping the industry out more people learning getting out of the complacency, which which is good because i've seen some videos out there already of people working on flammable refrigerants and having a big explosion.
• 0:50
  I've seen these on a piece of equipment already. It's happening But If you follow the proper practices of refrigeration in general, because you're supposed to have a refrigerant, you know what I mean? Say extinguisher with you when you're doing any work, any, anytime you open a torch, you should have an extinguisher, but we know 95 plus percent don't have an extinguisher while they're working on a system.
• 0:51
  Cause I remember back in the day, I didn't, you know what I mean? The odd time I did. So it's so important that to follow those rules, but there are a few more. Like you said earlier, he's like, you got to have a ventilation. So if you're working on a propane system, have a fan blowing over that system the whole time, and then you got to have like a detector.
• 0:52
  So around just like beeping to make sure that before you turn that torch on, after you cut out the compressor to weld a new one, that there is no you know, no, not a high enough concentration of that refrigerant. So, yeah.
• 0:53
  Johan: Yeah. And also, you know, I mean, there's, there's a lot of new technologies. In the market available today to contractors as well, right?
• 0:54
  It's, you know, you've got this realm of the press fittings, right? There's, there's push fittings. Now, I know a lot of the old school contractors will probably beat me up and say, you know, I'm not being a truest, right? You've got to, if you work on a system, you've got to braise it because that's the best form of, of leak protection that you can get on the system.
• 0:55
  But, you know, these, these new technologies are starting to be proven to be robust, reliable, leak proof, right? So. When working on flammable systems, whether it's an A3 system or an A2L system you know, you don't necessarily need to be brazing, right? There's press fittings, there's push fitting solutions that are available from a number of manufacturers, right?
• 0:56
  So, you know, the market in, in, in, In a whole is shifting towards supporting all these new refrigerants from an accessories components service standpoint. But what's really critical is just education and reeducation, right? You know, contractors. There's a ton of material available on the Internet. You know, you've got a lot of material available as well for training and reeducating the market, right?
• 0:57
  So, you know, I always say to our customers, excuse me. When we talk to them is, is get your contractors, you know participate in, in training courses, there's a ton of webinars available on new refrigerants from different manufacturers. And, you know, the more exposure we can get as, as, as contractors and installers to this new material, the better it's going to be for, for just the whole industry, right?
• 0:58
  One, you know, we don't want anybody getting hurt because of. For safety protocols because of, you know, not following being in a rush, you know, accidents happen, right? We appreciate that we work in a mechanical industry, but really, it's about just making sure that. All of our contractors, installers on our teams are educated.
• 0:59
  Everybody understands the risks around working with these new flammable, high pressure refrigerants, you know, whatever industry you're in. So really it's about just education and reeducation.
• 1:00
  Trevor: Yeah. I think this, This time and refrigeration is, is critical that we all start working together more. And I see, I've seen that years ago it started, but we need to retailers, contractors and manufacturers need to, we, we, even if there's competition out there, and that's what it is.
• 1:01
  We've got business. We need to make money. We need to grow. But I think this time where we're at, we're at a critical point in the industry where changes are happening really fast here in North America, and we need to help each other out. Cause the biggest thing we want everyone to be safe. Manufacturer want people to be safe.
• 1:02
  Contractors want people to say, and even the end user and the retailers want people to be safe. So I think it's going to, it's going to take a lot of work. It's not something that it can shift overnight, but the regulations are shift feel like they're shifting overnight. Let's dive into that a little bit more.
• 1:03
  So. 2025 we're getting, depending on the size of the commercial refrigeration, you got to be lower than 300 GWP. If you're, I think if you're on a over 250 pounds in a system, I think it's a one 50 GWP if I'm not mistaken.
• 1:04
  Johan: That's correct. Yeah.
• 1:05
  Trevor: But we did hear some good things for the propane side of things that it went from, I believe, 150 to 300 grams inside a system.
• 1:06
  Do you want to talk about how that helps or affects a manufacturer and as well as the contractors on the amount of parts or the equipment that they have to, you know, Yeah. So, so the regulation
• 1:07
  Johan: on propane is actually going to as you said, it's, it's, it's increasing from, from that one 50 gram to, to 300 grams and then even to 500 grams, right?
• 1:08
  So depending on, on the application you have, whether it's a, it's an open display case where you can reach in, there's no doors on it, you know, then you're going to, on those type of applications, you're going to be able to go up to 500 grams. of charge on a single circuit. On the closed display case where you've got doors on a particular unit, you're gonna be able to go up to 300 grams of charge.
• 1:09
  So what that means is one, you've now got a higher charge of a flammable refrigerant in a single circuit in a system. So again, coming back to what we're touching on safety, right? You're having more refrigerant there. But what it what it means is that, you know, you're not gonna see More propane systems in the field, right?
• 1:10
  So, you know, if you look at 500 grams of charge, you can probably go up to, depending on the size of the system, maybe 1. 5 horsepower in cooling capacity, right? Using old school terminology, right? But you can probably go up to 1. 5 horsepower. So this means that you've got a 1. 5 horsepower system with 500 grams of charge R290 charge in it, right?
• 1:11
  So what this means is that from a contractor installer standpoint is that they're going to start encountering more and more propane systems in the field, right? So as, as this new regulation really gets pushed through the market, You're going to see less and less of the legacy 404 systems in the field, right?
• 1:12
  Which again means that contractors are going to have to become more familiar with servicing, maintaining, working on Propane R290 systems. Yeah, so as we go ahead,
• 1:13
  Trevor: so this is where I've seen, you know manufacturers holding back of it because you'd have to have like on a 12 foot case, you know what I mean?
• 1:14
  Or a three meter case where they'd have to have three different systems on there. Now you might be able to do it and maybe even for now, you might be able to do it in one or two systems. And so now this reduced the costs on the equipment as well as reduce the cost for the end user, because the more parts, the more equipment as well as, and I don't know if this would be true, might reduce the heat load in the store if you only have two systems versus three, but I don't know that I'll have to look that up.
• 1:15
  Do the numbers on a calculation, but this is where manufacturers like now it's via more viable to go to the propane because it's not as cost heavy on that equipment. Would you agree with that? Or what, what are your thoughts on that?
• 1:16
  Johan: Yeah. You know, so if you look at propane, right As as a refrigerant, it's a high efficient, high efficiency refrigerant, right?
• 1:17
  So compared to your 134s or 404s, you know, you're getting a higher efficiency out of a smaller displacement or smaller capacity system, right? So from a Capacity standpoint, propane is a favorable refrigerant. The downside again, as we've spoken about, is the flammability, right? So if we look at it from a cost ownership standpoint, there are going to be benefits to the end user in terms of them.
• 1:18
  As you said, instead of having four systems on a particular lineup of cases, you're not going to be able to go to only two systems, right? The trade off again there is that you now have more propane refrigerant in your system. You've only got two circuits, but you are going to get a higher efficiency or higher efficiency out of your systems there.
• 1:19
  So, you know, there are benefits to it as well. And if you look at a lot of the new technologies as well that are coming into that space, right? So it's not just about going from four systems to two systems. So basically just reducing the number of circuits in the system. But you know, there's a lot of variable speed technology that's coming into play as well now.
• 1:20
  So that's also driving higher efficiencies on your cases which is ultimately supporting, you know, The return on investment to the, to the retailer in terms of energy savings in the long term less heat load in the store, which means that your AC system is running for a less period of time.
• 1:21
  So there are benefits to switching to these new refrigerants and new systems. So we're, we're in favor of the higher charge limits. If you look at Europe, if we just touch on Europe, you know, they've been at 500 grams of R290 charge limit now for, for, for, You know, a number of years already. They've proven that the technology works.
• 1:22
  Again, the whole safety risk mitigation around the flammable refrigerants, you know, they've managed that effectively through training education program. So I think it's a positive move that we're moving to these higher charge limits on on propane on the downside. Again, it means that, you know, there's new systems that need to be designed, developed, which, you know, we work with all of our major Case manufacturers and OEMs on that designing and optimizing propane systems for, for cases.
• 1:23
  Trevor: But it does take time. It doesn't like, it's not like you can just design a system, your manufacturers that are designing cases there, it's not like, okay, tomorrow we can just go design a different system. It takes time and engineering and sizing. Applications and like this, it takes years, but the regulations are not.
• 1:24
  So now it's time to really, I know manufacturers have talked to so many different ones. Like they're pushing real hard to try to get to these mandates that are out there, these regulations that are coming. And even though they're already in place in other parts of the world to shift a whole, you know, dozens to hundreds of different manufacturers, it takes a while.
• 1:25
  Right. And then they get a. They got to talk to their customers about it and the contractors and what you said training is going to be vital for all these new refrigerants coming out.
• 1:26
  What are your thoughts on the new, like the A2Ls? I know you guys been working on A2Ls for 10 years, probably. You know what I mean?
• 1:27
  It's not like it's new to you guys. But it's new to the industry and new to the the contractors and end user What are some of the things contractors need to now look out for the a2l's because I hear lots of things about leak mitigation You know what? I mean, especially like in walk in boxes depending on the size of the walk in box You need a some sort of leak mitigation Do you want to talk a little bit about that what contractors need to look out for for there?
• 1:28
  Johan: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, this is one of the one of the challenges that we've been having from a system design standpoint. So if we look at our, you know, remote outdoor condensing unit type of products, you know, as we go into this realm of a two L's right, we've got to start looking at adding additional leak mitigation.
• 1:29
  So from a from a unit cooler indoor, You know, perspective, you know, you've got to have sensors on your, your unit cooler indoors, which means that if you're using an electronic expansion valve with a controller, chances are you're going to have to get some kind of expansion board or change that out. You know, depending on the flexibility of the manufacturers board that you've got installed and the ability to actually handle A2L leak detection, you know, on some applications, you have to actually have dump fans as well.
• 1:30
  So, you know, when there's a high parts per million cents in a particular environment on that refrigerant, there's got to be a dump fan started so that you evacuate all of the air and you bring in a certain amount of fresh air as well into the room. So from a, from a system design standpoint, right? One that is likely going to be some applied cost.
• 1:31
  To the indoor units and the outdoor units as you add leak mitigation, because you've got to add sensors, you've got to add controls to that. From a design standpoint as well, you know, as contractors installers look at designs, again, depending on the size of the, of the room or the application and the charge limit in A2L, there's got to be certain design elements around, you know, dump fans circulation of fresh air.
• 1:32
  Safety mitigation, right? You know, you can't have the outdoor unit in an area where it's not accessible for, you know, fire safety access, et cetera. So you know, in terms of just system design as well, you know, contractors installers will start seeing a lot more electronics added to the systems in the future.
• 1:33
  To support leak mitigation. So, you know, you're not going to be able to stick purely with your mechanical style controls. In the future, as these requirements for for leak mitigation become more and more regulated and controlled again, depending on the application, right? There's lots of different applications out there and.
• 1:34
  Again, the bigger applications will require a lot more electronics and a lot more mitigation, leak sensing, leak controls, where, you know, your smaller standalone applications might not be as complex, but there will still be certain requirements that will be needed. And this is again, talking about A2L in general, right?
• 1:35
  There's a lot of you know, city, state, federal fire codes, building codes that are, that are being rewritten. So, you know, outside of just using the A2L and getting product qualified and sold for it, you know, there's a lot of considerations that contractors installers need to take into account when installing or working on, on A2L or any flammable systems, right?
• 1:36
  Make sure that, you know, you're following local city, state, federal building codes. You know, make sure that the permits are in place, you know so because again, it's not just about the flammable refrigerant, right? But it's about following, you know, again, good practices and, and all the building codes and standards that we need to adhere to.
• 1:37
  Trevor: Yeah. And that's the big thing, right? We're not only talking about refrigeration, it's a bigger, bigger thing now, because I know like there's only a couple of states. That even approved a two L's I think through their building code. I don't know all of them right now, but I remember like, I think maybe Seattle, some on the West coast, but it's not throughout the whole country.
• 1:38
  This stuff that still needs to be worked on, but I'd like to dive into the leak mitigation just a little bit more, because this is important for a technician because you may not have worked on one of these systems before, but if you have so many pounds or kilograms of refrigerant in a system, in a certain amount of space, like you said, you might have to have.
• 1:39
  Leak mitigation controls. And what does that mean? You have a fan that like Joanne said, pulling in fresh air and another one fan pulling out that is connected to a controller and that controller is connected to a leak detection system, maybe in the evaporator or down you know, certain parts and you've got to know where to place it.
• 1:40
  Is it in the coil side? Is it down near the floor? Is it up on the roof where that is? And then that sensor needs to go back and. Turn this stuff on, depending if it sees a leak, there's some other situations where maybe you have solenoids on it, where you'll end check valves, special check valves and special solenoids, where if you do have a leak, all of a sudden it'll close the solenoids.
• 1:41
  So you don't have any more of that A2L or that refrigerant going into that closed space and the fans turn on. So this is where the, it. Becomes complicated. Not only because a lot of people talk about co2 is complicated because of high pressures propane is flammable and you need to do all this stuff But same with the a2ls there's going to be a lot of things that we haven't encountered It's not like you just take a refrigerant and just drop it in and you're okay That's not the case with a2ls And I want technicians to understand that when you're dealing with these a2ls like the refrigerant joanne mentioned That there's different procedures You That you have to understand.
• 1:42
  There's no drop in replacement to to 4A2L. Is that correct?
• 1:43
  Johan: Yeah.
• 1:44
  Yeah.
• 1:45
  Trevor: And
• 1:46
  Johan: that's really critical, right? You know, one of the major control considerations to have with an A2L system is if there's a leak, your, your compressor system has to shut down, right? You can't, you know, if there's, if there's a leak sensed in a particular area.
• 1:47
  So whether it's in the indoor area, you know What has to happen is, is as these protocols start kicking in, you know, the first protocol is that your outdoor condensing unit, your compressor system actually shuts down, right? Because one, you don't want to continue pumping A2L refrigerant into, you know, your room or the particular environment, right?
• 1:48
  And then the next step, as you mentioned, right, you've got to start you know, clearing that, Flammable or, or mildly flammable refrigerant out of that particular environment, right? So, as you said, your dump fans have gotta kick on, you know, there's gotta be some kind of alarm going off as well. You know, whether it's just a, a pure siren or a flashing light, you know, or whether it's, it's, it's a more complex system, right?
• 1:49
  When it sends an SMS or an email via a. a standard communications protocol to the lead contractor or the lead maintenance engineer on a particular site saying, Hey, this system is shut down. You know, someone's got to go and have a look at it. And then also, you know, contractors and installers really need to be cautious when you get to these sites, right?
• 1:50
  You've got to understand really what's going on, right? And it's not just, as you said, a case of getting up to the site and then recharging the system and starting up the system again, right? Because if there was a leak detected Chances are, you know, there's there's something going on with the system.
• 1:51
  There's a there's a problem. So, you know, leak leak control is really going to become critical with these A to L refrigerants, right? You know, so again, managing, you know, whether it's push fitting, press fittings, brazed fittings, you know, making sure that that you follow the nitrogen. You know, purging process when you're installing the system, making sure that you do all your leak testing before charging any refrigerant into the system, you know, making sure that your vacuum procedure, you know, you follow your vacuum procedure down that your system is holding the vacuum for, for a period of 24, 48 hours again, depending on the size of the system.
• 1:52
  So again, just in general, the, the speed at which contractors and installers are going to be able to. install A2L systems relative to the legacy systems is going to take more time on site, right? So as a contract installer, remember when you're doing the installation that you factor that into your costs, right?
• 1:53
  Because it's a different, it's a different animal to what you've been used to in the past.
• 1:54
  Trevor: And this is going to put a lot of pressure on the industry. This is going to put a lot of costs on the industry for the end users, for the contractors and for the manufacturers. So you, I really like what you said there.
• 1:55
  You got to factor that in when you're quoting these jobs. And you know, Good contractors that I work with out there, they understand that they're, they're honest with their customers and they show them this is what it's going to take. Now that we have to add all these extra steps there's still going to be guys that are going to just go.
• 1:56
  And if you're a retailer out there, listen to this, there's going to be contractors is going to low ball these things. But when you're dealing with a two L's and CO2 and probably you gotta, you gotta find out exactly what's in that contract. Step by step for the retailers. What are they, if they're charging me this amount lower than this other contractor that I work with all the time, but there's half the price, you got to get them to write out exactly what they're doing, because I bet you it's a different process because this does take more work it's costing.
• 1:57
  And, and I really think, so these contractors that understand how to work on this stuff safely should be getting a paid a premium. And you know what I mean? So that puts another. Increase in the cost of doing refrigeration because we need Higher skilled technicians out there to do this stuff We can't just pull someone off the street and expect tomorrow to be able to go work on.
• 1:58
  A threes or a, a two L's or, or even CO2 it takes time to learn this stuff. So you got to get into training. You got to hit the to go to companies training, got to come to refrigeration mentor training and learn about this stuff. And it does take time. No, and you should bring up
• 1:59
  Johan: a, you should bring up a good point there.
• 2:00
  Trevor about just, you know, Contractor training. And, and, and it's not just that, right. It's considering the insurance impact as well. Right. Because, you know, again, you're not. There's a potential for a fire incident. So contractors need to make sure that the insurance covers all of that, you know, that they license and that they contract as a license to handle flammable refrigerants.
• 2:01
  You know, you moving flammable refrigerants around on trucks, you know, make sure that your trucks are all certified labeled. You've got the right signage on your trucks talking about, you know, this truck has got a flammable refrigerant on it. So. You know, it's a much broader topic than just saying how I'm a refrigerant contractor or I'm carrying refrigerants around, right?
• 2:02
  There's a lot of considerations. And then for the retailers as well, right, you know, they've now got a situation where they potentially have a higher charge of propane inside of an environment where there's customers, you know, doing shopping, etcetera. So, you know, the risk factor around using A2L or A3 refrigerants is much bigger than just talking about the regulation, right?
• 2:03
  Trevor: Yeah, exactly. Because you don't want to be a retailer that you just hire anyone to come in. And then all of a sudden there's something happens. There's an accident that happens and you have to shut down your store for a week. Even worse, someone gets hurt. So this is what you got to think about. And for contractors out there, we always had to label our trucks and understand that we have compressed gas driving around, but it's more and more important now.
• 2:04
  And this is why this training is important for a technician and helping them understand that. Cause when I first started out in the field 20 years ago, I, I didn't under people told me, but I learned about some of the cold codes and stuff like that, but it's. Really, really important now to understand this stuff, to keep you safe.
• 2:05
  So you can go home at night to your family, continue to keep making money and that you feel confident doing this job. Cause I know technicians, there's some, I don't want to work on this stuff right now, Trevor. Nobody's taught me and trained me and they're sending me out to these jobs. And when it's propane, I don't, I don't feel comfortable doing it.
• 2:06
  So this is where, if you're a technician, listen out there, Pusher your boss or your service manager or the business owner and tell them the risk of me not being trained on this is liability for your company. And could you could actually get sued if we go out there and we send an unlicensed or unqualified technician and something happens to that store.
• 2:07
  And this is, this is what could happen out there because I'm sure it happened in other countries. At the end of the day for me and you and a lot of most of the other people it's about safety We don't want anyone to get hurt if something gets caught on fire and burns that's fine. It's not good It's a problem, but if anyone gets hurt at the end of the day, I don't want people hurt or technicians hurt.
• 2:08
  And that's, that, that's the main, main thing here, Joanne. Yeah.
• 2:09
  Johan: And there's, you know, there's, there's so much literature information available on the internet, right. I mean, through a refrigeration mentor, right. You've got a ton of literature and support available. All the manufacturers to come see, we provide training.
• 2:10
  So. You know, there's there is information available out there. It's just we need to get the contractors more engaged and asking for that, right? And, you know, as we, as we sort of move down into these, these new regulations and new refrigerants, right? It's really critical that we we, we support the industry as much as we can with, with education and continue to, to drive that message of make sure that the contractors is.
• 2:11
  And installers are qualified, trained to use the refrigerants you know, reach out to, you know, your, your distributors, reach out to your OEM suppliers, you know, get information wherever possible and, and just make sure that you, you stay ahead of the curve on these regulations because they are coming and you know, we, we really need to, to make sure that we support the industry.
• 2:12
  Trevor: Yeah, yo, and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me about this because this is a big topic. It's not like, it's not like it was before when you went from 404 to 448, 449, you know, 10 years ago, almost now they're, or going from R22 to 404 or whatever. There's, there's a lot more to it than, than just that.
• 2:13
  So you got to start educating yourself, do some more research and really work with your, with your, Your suppliers your manufacturers on this stuff of your technician as well as if you're a retailer So if you're you own a retail store You gotta find out and dive in work with the contractor work with the end user get together and have these conversations Because the more everyone's working together on those three parts manufacturers contractor and user the quicker You'll be able to implement this stuff safely and effectively and reduce the amount of cost that it's going to be for everybody In that in that yo and any final thoughts
• 2:14
  Johan: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
• 2:15
  So Trevor again, appreciate the time. Thank you for for having me on on your podcast. What I would say is, you know, to to contractors installers listening, you know, go to the internet look up as much information literature as you can about a two L's, you know get the information, get trained up, you know, reach out to your industry bodies as well.
• 2:16
  You know, reach out to trade organizations for support. And obviously, as you said, your manufacturers, your suppliers reach out and just keep learning about A2Ls because there's still a lot of confusion in the market. I know a lot of manufacturers are driving a huge amount of training into A2Ls.
• 2:17
  The the industry at the moment to support that, but, you know, keep, keep training, keep learning keep asking questions and you know, we, we appreciate the feedback. So Trevor, thank you very much for having me. I do appreciate it. And
• 2:18
  Trevor: always good to spend time with you. Awesome. Thank you so much. And, and as always, like, you know, get in and start doing some of your own research outside of work.
• 2:19
  So you are, you're more confident. And if you come into a situation, you're prepared, at least, you know, what to do or know what questions to ask. And that is, I think that is the a big key, you know, and thank you so much for taking the time and look forward to chatting with you again. All right, Trevor, appreciate that.
• 2:20
  Have a good
• 2:21
  Johan: day.